![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn4/5. I bought this basically on the strength of seeing Kaufmann talk about his thoughts on Carlo on YouTube, and also the auto-da-fe scene shown in this link (at around 13:40) where Hampson's Rodrigo is all but trying to telepathically yell to Carlo DON'T DO IT!! And it is great, although I definitely imprinted really heavily on the Met 2011 Alagna/Poplavskaya/Keenlyside/Furlanetto so that it took me a while to warm to it sometimes.
Kaufmann and Hampson as Carlo and Rodrigo are both brilliant and they are brilliant actors and singers. They also play the Carlo/Rodrigo friendship as extremely, er, hands-on, though with plausible deniability -- no specific moment where the slashy subtext becomes relatively explicit as it was in Keenlyside's Met 2011 Rodrigo -- but, I mean, on the other hand, Rodrigo literally dies in Carlo's arms, you know? There's at the same time also definitely a distinct vibe of Hampson being older and taller, and thus also having a mentor/big-brother cast to him -- and Hampson's Rodrigo is a very intelligent one; you can always see him thinking really hard about all the events unfolding in front of him.
Now Rodrigo/Philip has a lot more, umm, subtext to it in this production. In Keenlyside/Furlanetto's scene, there wasn't any hint of it anything but a straightforward and imo extremely powerful lord/vassal relationship, whereas in this one, Salminen keeps touching Hampson during this scene -- I mean, just on the shoulder and such, but whenever he does, Hampson makes the most hilariously unsettled faces of "Help, does the Spanish Court have HR I can talk to?" (It is particularly hilarious because he and Kaufmann are way more touchy with each other.) ...This scene maay have made me ship it in an extremely dubcon kind of way. (Well, not completely, because poor Elisabetta -- I love Elisabetta a lot and can't deal with the idea of Posa betraying her -- but I could kinda imagine it where none of the characters really consider it infidelity and Elisabetta feels a kinship for Rodrigo rather than betrayed by him.)
(One thing I adored about the staging was that in the auto-da-fe scene, Hampson and Harteros say their asides to each other (rather than being separated and both just kind of saying them as spoken thoughts, as in Met 2011) -- one of these is visible at the above link. I just really love the thought of the Rodrigo and Elisabetta relationship, how they're both united in their dedication to Carlos and in general just being the awesome people in this opera. <3 )
Speaking of Elisabetta, Harteros was great, although with a tendency to sharp, although I did get imprinted by Poplavskaya's very strong Elisabetta so it took me a while to realize that Harteros was intentionally playing it a bit more emotionally and that both of these are consistent with the libretto :) (Schiller's Elisabeth is also stronger than opera!Elisabeth, which is also affecting my opinions on this.)
Salminen in general did not strike me as nearly as powerful as Furlanetto, although he did get to sing the Lachrymosa with Kaufmann after Rodrigo's death, which is phenomenal and amazing and I feel that all peformances should have this! (I guess it's based on reconstruction of different versions and isn't really in most scores?) I would totally trade the Fontainbleu Act I for this :) I have a lot of feelings about the Rodrigo&Filippo relationship anyway, which this just served to sharpen :)
Kaufmann and Hampson as Carlo and Rodrigo are both brilliant and they are brilliant actors and singers. They also play the Carlo/Rodrigo friendship as extremely, er, hands-on, though with plausible deniability -- no specific moment where the slashy subtext becomes relatively explicit as it was in Keenlyside's Met 2011 Rodrigo -- but, I mean, on the other hand, Rodrigo literally dies in Carlo's arms, you know? There's at the same time also definitely a distinct vibe of Hampson being older and taller, and thus also having a mentor/big-brother cast to him -- and Hampson's Rodrigo is a very intelligent one; you can always see him thinking really hard about all the events unfolding in front of him.
Now Rodrigo/Philip has a lot more, umm, subtext to it in this production. In Keenlyside/Furlanetto's scene, there wasn't any hint of it anything but a straightforward and imo extremely powerful lord/vassal relationship, whereas in this one, Salminen keeps touching Hampson during this scene -- I mean, just on the shoulder and such, but whenever he does, Hampson makes the most hilariously unsettled faces of "Help, does the Spanish Court have HR I can talk to?" (It is particularly hilarious because he and Kaufmann are way more touchy with each other.) ...This scene maay have made me ship it in an extremely dubcon kind of way. (Well, not completely, because poor Elisabetta -- I love Elisabetta a lot and can't deal with the idea of Posa betraying her -- but I could kinda imagine it where none of the characters really consider it infidelity and Elisabetta feels a kinship for Rodrigo rather than betrayed by him.)
(One thing I adored about the staging was that in the auto-da-fe scene, Hampson and Harteros say their asides to each other (rather than being separated and both just kind of saying them as spoken thoughts, as in Met 2011) -- one of these is visible at the above link. I just really love the thought of the Rodrigo and Elisabetta relationship, how they're both united in their dedication to Carlos and in general just being the awesome people in this opera. <3 )
Speaking of Elisabetta, Harteros was great, although with a tendency to sharp, although I did get imprinted by Poplavskaya's very strong Elisabetta so it took me a while to realize that Harteros was intentionally playing it a bit more emotionally and that both of these are consistent with the libretto :) (Schiller's Elisabeth is also stronger than opera!Elisabeth, which is also affecting my opinions on this.)
Salminen in general did not strike me as nearly as powerful as Furlanetto, although he did get to sing the Lachrymosa with Kaufmann after Rodrigo's death, which is phenomenal and amazing and I feel that all peformances should have this! (I guess it's based on reconstruction of different versions and isn't really in most scores?) I would totally trade the Fontainbleu Act I for this :) I have a lot of feelings about the Rodrigo&Filippo relationship anyway, which this just served to sharpen :)
no subject
Date: 2018-05-31 11:02 pm (UTC)I respect Kaufmann as a performer and I can see that he's doing something intentional with Carlo, but I don't like what he's doing! His Carlos was just distractingly twitchy all the time, and pretty immature until the very last scene. The way that performance staged the first Elisabeth-Carlo duet also really didn't work for me, the way they seemed almost afraid to touch each other. And it gave a weird effect that Carlo was so skittish with Elisabeth and so grabby with Rodrigo. But I loved pretty much everything to do with Rodrigo and Philip, and I also liked Harteros's Elisabeth a lot. Including the Lachrymosa section is great, and I also really liked the moment you mentioned when Rodrigo and Elisabeth speak their asides to each other. (Oh, and I'm used to a more courtly/less soldierly Rodrigo, though I like both interpretations, but I really loved it when he pulled his dagger out of his boot during the confrontation with Eboli.)
If you have feelings about the whole Rodrigo-Philip relationship, I think you should listen to the original French version of their duet also. I like the revised version better musically and dramatically, especially at the ending, but the first version is much more openly political and gives Rodrigo the chance to express more of his philosophy to Philip, and I find it really interesting. It's just thrilling to me when Rodrigo declares, "Dieu vous dicte sa volonté . . . donnez à vos enfants la Liberté!" (I'm not sure how I feel about Philip calling Rodrigo "enfant," though!)
Here's a recording with Hampson and Samuel Ramey:
https://youtu.be/Guy68GFNOkQ
And here's the text/translation:
https://opera-cat.dreamwidth.org/15085.html
no subject
Date: 2018-06-01 09:18 pm (UTC)I didn't mind what Kaufmann did with Carlo, but I had the advantage of having first watched that youtube video in the post where he really did lay his interpretation all out, so I was more-or-less prepared -- and I also really love his voice -- and also I think I don't... necessarily disagree with his interpretation? I do kind of feel like Carlo comes across as a fairly weak character; until the end, he keeps trying to go after Elisabetta even though she's married, is technically his mom, and has pretty much rebuffed him; and he really is way more interested in his own problems than in Flanders until the last scene. Though I agree that Kaufmann's Carlo is quite whiny; he really does highlight all the unattractive bits of the character, and I felt like I was face-palming at Carlo a lot :)
Are you saying you thought Hampson's Rodrigo was more soldierly? That's so interesting -- I thought exactly the opposite, that he was more courtly than I was expecting :) Did you see the Met broadcast where Keenlyside was Rodrigo? (That's the one I first watched, on Met on Demand -- here's a clip of That Scene I Love, with Furlanetto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWDfHDRlTxo) I felt like Keenlyside was more of a soldier-type Rodrigo, so I've sort of imprinted on that, but I like Hampson's version at least as much :) (I do have Thoughts about how Rodrigo should be at least somewhat courtly, given that whole scene with Eboli and the Queen, but anyway.)
Oh WOW that original French version is amazing (Hampson and Ramey are terrific!) and I love how it brings in the politics explicitly. I am really glad you did that translation! And that is amazing that he switches to "tu" halfway in-between <3 Augh, I agree with you that the revised version is better musically and dramatically, but it's really great to have this as a sort of... background?... to where he's coming from. I think my favorite bit was, "Deign to hear me, Sire! Since chance . . . since God has willed this day..." What a terrible irreligious subversive this Rodrigo is! <3 (I wouldn't be surprised if that were just a bit Too Much, because revised!Rodrigo seems to me like he ended up pretty devout.) Heh, I am not sure I like the "enfant" either :)
It seems absurdly hard to find a video of the French version, though, even in the revised version! (uh, yes, I did spend a while last night trying to do that) Met On Demand doesn't seem to have it at all, and youtube only has little snippets from, well, what looks like an Alagna/young!Hampson version (which actually looks like it could be interesting, hmm)
I'm obsessed with Rodrigo & Philip for several reasons, including because I'm a total sucker for the lord-vassal relationship and tensions that stress it. (I adore the part in the Keenlyside clip above where he tries to resign his sword to Philip -- and Philip won't take it.) I love the auto-da-fe scene SO much because Rodrigo has all these different extremely important loyalties pulling on him -- to Philip (least important, but still very much there), to Carlos, to Flanders and his conception of liberty, but then also this sort of meta-loyalty, arising out of the others, to making sure Philip and Carlos don't kill each other in a swordfight, and that one wins but super stresses those first two loyalty bonds <3
no subject
Date: 2018-06-01 11:42 pm (UTC)I'm happy that Hampson's Germont got you into Verdi, but I think those particular performances (Macbeth/Traviata) are probably not my thing. (I don't like most "concept" productions and modern updates of classic opera.) If I recall correctly, I watched one of the Traviatas on Youtube a while back -- it was the one with all the extra symbolism, like the personification of Time(?) (I think?) wandering through and a giant clock face and I forget what else. I remember liking the singing, but the staging was really distracting to me (to the extent that I couldn't really focus on the other aspects of the performance). I'm glad you enjoyed them! But probably not for me.
Back to Kaufmann's Carlo: Like, I see how you can get his interpretation from the libretto (especially if you look at the historical Don Carlo, who was mostly kind of pathetic). But it isn't fun for me (and I think it's going against what the music conveys). If Carlo is immature and useless, then it makes Rodrigo seem deluded and it makes the whole opera much bleaker. Rodrigo talks about how Carlo will bring Spain a new Golden Age, and he probably is idealizing Carlo somewhat, but I want Carlo to be a character who is worthy of Rodrigo's devotion. And I want to be able to see why Elizabeth (and Eboli) love him. As for Carlo's rashness and his pursuing of a woman who's told him to back off, I guess his behavior falls within the range of what I'm used to in operatic tenor roles. :P Like, I don't expect a tenor character to act sensibly or rationally, and I treat it as a convention of the genre. :P The way Kaufmann's Carlo is constantly gesturing and in motion I think also detracts from the staging of some scenes (such as some moments during the auto-da-fe), because it calls attention to him at times when he's not necessarily supposed to be the focus, and it makes the stage motion more frenetic at times when the music is more slow and intense. So basically, I respect that Kaufmann was doing this deliberately and with thought put into it, but I don't like it.
I did see that Met on Demand production, years ago (I saw it in the movie theatre on the big screen, which was great). I'd forgotten that particular moment between Rodrigo and Philip in the video that you linked. Wow, that's intense! I see what you mean about being frightened for Rodrigo there. And it underlines his courage, the way he's willing to stand up to Philip's absolute power and to speak the truth to him.
It looks like I wrote a couple of LJ entries about seeing that production, back in 2011: this one about the performance in general (like you, I loved Furlanetto's Philip) and then another draft that I never finished and saved as a private entry -- but I'm willing to unprivate it, since I was talking exactly about why Keenlyside was a good Rodrigo but not "my" Rodrigo as I imagined him. (Again, this was something I never finished and I would probably have edited it a bit, but here it is.)
It is interesting how people come to these operas from different directions/different contexts! You imprinted on Keenlyside's Rodrigo (and I can see why), and if you're using him as the benchmark then even Hampson's Rodrigo does seem more courtly. But I imprinted on a totally different version/style of Rodrigo. :) And neither is objectively right or wrong, but if you want to know where I'm coming from:
I've been obsessed with Don Carlo for at least fifteen or twenty years now, so I can't remember for sure where I first developed my interpretations of the characters. But the Rodrigo and Carlo I first imprinted on was a lot more like this one with Placido Domingo and Sherrill Milnes; Carlo melancholy but always dignified, and Rodrigo's affect more "nobleman" than "soldier".
https://youtu.be/Gfp3cI2UVn0
I don't think I saw those videos/live performances at the time, but my parents had an LP of Don Carlo with Sherrill Milnes on the cover looking something like this:
http://sherrillmilnes.com/wp-content/fancygallery/1/3/Rodrigo-in-Don-Carlo.jpg
So he was my visual image for Rodrigo, and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau was my audio image of Rodrigo (and the way he sings Rodrigo comes across as more courtly and smooth to me, though also passionate and intense).
And then also, when I first heard the opera, to me Don Carlo was all of one piece with The Three Musketeers and Ivanhoe and Sir Walter Scott's "The Lady of the Lake" and Cyrano de Bergerac and swashbuckling Errol Flynn movies and all the romantic-chivalry stuff I'd been steeped in from childhood -- the courtly loyal nobleman/knight. So that's the background I had, and that's where "my" version of Rodrigo comes out of.
(I will hopefully come back and try to answer the rest of your comment later, if I haven't been babbling too much already.)
no subject
Date: 2018-06-02 11:20 am (UTC)(Also, I am thrilled at these comments and your crush on Hampson’s Rodrigo! There’s lots of room in this hand basket XD)
no subject
Date: 2018-06-02 11:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-06-02 02:02 pm (UTC)I'll look forward to your response when you have time. :D
no subject
Date: 2018-06-03 03:27 am (UTC)*nods* What you say about Rodrigo and Carlo makes perfect sense! I'm still in the first flush of having discovered this opera, so I'm still imprinting on what the characters mean to me :) And I clearly imprinted a lot on the Met 2011, so as you know I'm doing a lot of using that as a reference and comparing everything to that -- ha, maybe I should have watched Milnes first! Met on Demand does have a production with him and (of course) I just looked at some of the Rodrigo scenes :) Milnes is marvelous of course, and the Carlo (Vasile Moldoveanu? never heard of him) is also wonderful -- much more on the dignified side, as you prefer :)
Here's a youtube video of their duet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-z80x9Zl_0
--gosh, I love it -- Rodrigo, there, really speaks to me of what you quote in your post from the Book of the Courtier, where this Rodrigo is assisting his Prince to the good <3
Though, I mean, there are some parts of the libretto that do give me pause with regard to Carlo being a bit unstable... I really adore the auto-da-fe scene, but, well, I got totally imprinted by the scene in The Warrior's Apprentice where Vordrozda pulls the needler in front of the Emperor and he's not even aiming at Gregor but it's a Very Very Big Deal -- so Carlo drawing a sword on the King shocked me. (And it's very different in Schiller, which -- oh, that's going to have to be a whole other comment or possibly post.)
I think — given that I'm still new to this and still forming my headcanon :) -- I'm totally up for a courtier Rodrigo or for a more soldierly one — but what I do absolutely need is for Rodrigo's relationship with Carlos, and with Flanders, to be legitimately loving and honest — I don't think I would react well at all to a truly manipulative or zealot Rodrigo. (Which I did not get from Keenlyside, even if he thinks that's what he was portraying. :P :) )
You know, the interesting thing about that scary moment in the Met 2011 Keenlyside/Furlanetto is that it's super played in that one as Filippo menacing Rodrigo, but in the two other scenes of that I've now watched (Hampson/Salminen and I just looked at the Milnes/Plishka) the terrible shout of the music is actually describing the impact of Rodrigo's statement on Filippo. I love both interpretations — I think the second one is probably more consonant with what is intended, but I can't help loving the first as well.
Ah, I get that about the modern productions — and although as you know I adored bigclock!Traviata it's definitely a personal taste thing, and I thought the Macbeth was a total mess of a production :) I'll have to see whether Hampson has done any other good period productions… (I do have another canon-era Hampson Traviata you can borrow, if you like. :D )
no subject
Date: 2018-06-03 03:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2018-06-03 06:28 pm (UTC)I'm glad you liked the unrevised French version! I only know it from the "No Tenors Allowed" CD with Hampson and Ramey (I think I've mentioned it before, but it's really fantastic and I recommend it).
Ha, yes, this version of Rodrigo is quite a heretic! :) It's only surprising that the Inquisition didn't catch up with him earlier. I find his passionate earnestness really endearing, and I like getting more about where he's coming from with his views on liberty (and also to help understand Philip's reactions to Rodrigo), but I also love revised-version Rodrigo as he is, so.
That switch to tu is one of the things I like about the French version. Similarly in Carlo and Rodrigo's duet, in the French version Carlo starts with tu, but Rodrigo begins with vous (as befits their respective social positions and Carlo's state of distress), and the way Rodrigo changes formality levels just makes me melt, because it's when he sees that Carlo is desperately unhappy. It's the part that goes, in Italian:
Muto sei tu! Sospiri! hai tristo il cor!
Carlo mio, con me dividi il tuo pianto, il tuo dolor!
That's already amazing and gets me every time, but in French, it's:
Vous vous taisez! vous soupirez! des pleurs!
Mon Carlos, donne-moi ma part de tes doleurs!
*stars in my eyes* Rodrigue, how are you even so perfect.
I used to be opinionated and dogmatic about how the French version was Best and in retrospect I think that was kinda obnoxious, and that all the versions have their good points. But I do love the French libretto for moments like that. And it is a shame that it's so hard to find performances/recordings for either of the French versions, if only for the sake of variety and seeing the opera from all possible aspects.
I like the Rodrigo and Philip relationship too! With all the loyalty and tensions that you mention.
no subject
Date: 2018-06-04 05:47 pm (UTC)Mon Carlos, donne-moi ma part de tes doleurs!
Oh Rodrigue! -- you know, I think this also plays into that whole Courtier thing, the "vous" being so proper and, I don't know, courtly, but then he just wants to help his Carlos <3333
I also love Rodrigo & Filippo because if anything could save Philip from himself, it would be Rodrigo getting Philip to listen to him, because Philip both loves and respects him (as opposed to Elisabetta, whom he loves but apparently doesn't respect
because he's an idiot) -- but because of all the tensions on both the characters (and Rodrigo's layers of loyalty), Rodrigo can't and won't save Philip, and Philip can't and won't really listen to him anyway, and boom, tragedy. I JUST. The characters in this are drawn so well!I usually don't go for aria sets (as opposed to full operas), but I am going to have to make an exception for this one :) Thanks for the rec!
no subject
Date: 2018-06-10 05:31 pm (UTC)Thanks to cahn, it's Kaufmann's rash, ridiculous, obsessive young Carlo that I'm taken with, and his wild obsession with Elisabeth -- to listen to Kaufmann, his Carlo is marked by a reckless abandon that's inherently unstable, which is why he's so needy and clingy and ridiculous, but Kaufmann makes that intense neediness kind of compelling? I mean, it's compelling to Rodrigo, anyway, and to Elisabeth, particularly at the end when you see him get some backbone under him, and sense of duty, thanks to her?
I do think kaufmann's Carlo is in love with/obsessed with Elisabeth -- as you say, this is a prerequisite to the plot making actual sense! -- but that doesn't detract from his also loving and needing his loyal, loving Rodrigo, as he's always done. Imo, the tragedy of that ridiculous boy is that he can't let go of that first possessive obsession with his father's wife (and obsession with proving himself to Daddy), which lends itself to stupid grandiose meaningless gestures that get people killed, and can't join with Rodrigo in a more subtle, smarter political campaign to further his own position politically (as well as actually benefit Flanders). Idk if that makes sense, but that's how the Carlo/Elisabeth and Carlo/rodrigo works in my head, anyway! I've also been shouting my Carlo/elisabeth/rodrigo thoughts at cahn, but that's another story entirely ;)
Eta: I haven't said anything about Hampson that people haven't said better many times before, but I super adore his Rodrigo and is the reason why I ship him/Carlo (and /Philip) like burning. He's such an intelligent performer, imo, and has chemistry with anyone he's on stage with -- viz, against him Carlo comes off rash and obsessive rather than weak and flaky, and you can see how Carlo needs and relies on him? Does that make any sense at all?
no subject
Date: 2018-06-12 03:56 am (UTC)which lends itself to stupid grandiose meaningless gestures that get people killed
Yes, I don't think I object to this part of the character — while I'm facepalming a bit (okay, a lot) at some of the things he does, I totally understand emotionally where he's coming from, and I do think Kaufmann really sells that fundamental emotional place. Though I totally will agree with zdenka that I facepalmed rather more with Kaufmann's Carlo than with Alagna's Carlo, who was rather more centered and acted as a little less dependent on Rodrigo. :) (Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, but kaufmann and Hampson definitely give me more of a vibe of a mentor relationship. Having been imprinted by Alagna/Keenlyside, I envision it more as a Hamlet-Horatio relationship.)
I've also been shouting my Carlo/elisabeth/rodrigo thoughts
hee! I will say that, after thinking about it, the HONOR part is a big enough thing for me that I honestly can't be a fan of even consummated Carlo/Elisabetta (except maybe in a far-out canon divergence, like if Philip was killed but NOT by Carlo?? even then I feel like Elisabetta would have issues with it), much less Elisabetta/Rodrigo at all in a shippy way — but! as a sort of emotional-support-threesome perhaps? TRIO! :)
no subject
Date: 2018-07-15 02:00 am (UTC)Salminen, while very powerful, is not a perfect fit for Philip - vocally, he's more of a Grand Inquisitor. But in the right role - like Hagen - he's absolutely amazing!
no subject
Date: 2018-07-15 03:34 am (UTC)I've read reviews that say Salminen is really great, so I'll have to keep an eye out for him in other roles -- Hagen, you say! Hmm. It's on my list :)