I've totally lost track of where we were in comments, mildred, so I'm just going to go by section :) This seemed like kind of a long section, but I guess seven years is a long time!
When Louise found out about this, she told her brother sadly and bitterly: His silence stems from the fact that he has too much to write, especially to my sister-in-law Wilhelmine.
Aw, Louise. <3
Elisabeth Christine let everyone feel through her imperious nature that she was finally the only queen.
Is this right? Huh. I guess I can understan why EC might want to punch down herself a little for a brief moment until Fritz puts a stop to that
Aw, I remember selenak telling us about that passage where Lehndorff is rolling his eyes that Mina is so upset about Heinrich's wound. It's still pretty funny to me :P
I was really comforted and satisfied that [I am] popular. I don't know how I earned this.
Awww, Louise! No wonder everyone thinks she's so nice <3
He had the look on the face of an angel that he really is now, Louise informed her brother, maybe it is a good thing that he died in his innocence, without knowing anything about the misery and grief in this world. But for a mother's tender heart, it is a terrible pain.
:(((((( ...what a year for her :( I can see how she might think that maybe he was well out of it :( But still so sad :((
Okay, Es war sein Verlobungsring -- this is translated as "engagement ring"? Did AW give Mina his engagement ring?? I mean, I guess it's not quite as bad as giving her his kids, but...
...Geez Heinrich, WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN TO MINA. Rhetorical question. But really. Still glad we're reading this after the other Zieburas!
Edited 2020-09-15 05:31 (UTC)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Elisabeth Christine let everyone feel through her imperious nature that she was finally the only queen.
Is this right? Huh. I guess I can understan why EC might want to punch down herself a little for a brief moment
Ziebura has this from Lehndorff, who certainly had that impression directly after SD's death. (I think I told you about this? He even has an argument re: SD's funeral arrangements with her, and she apologizes the next day, but this doesn't make him feel much warmer towards her. This series of entries are the ones containing the "she'd have made an excellent burgher's wife" dig, amidst raving about how great SD was at Queendom.) I was a tad sceptical during my original reading of the diaries, but Sophie von Voss backs him up here - i.e. EC after SD's death trying to be more authoritarian (and failing at it) - so now I think it was another case of damned if you do, damned of you don't for her. (Her mother-in-law had critisized her as not sufficiently regal, after all.)
Aw, I remember selenak telling us about that passage where Lehndorff is rolling his eyes that Mina is so upset about Heinrich's wound. It's still pretty funny to me :P
Lehndorff is usually complimentary about Mina, and during the time they lived together in Heinrich's Berlin residence (remember, when Lehndorff had no more Berlin place but wanted to live there to be near his sons and Heinrich told him to move into his town residence with his family, ca. 1799), he had tea with her every day- but every now and then you get a remark like this, complete with an aside that she hears perfectly well and yet they had to repeat to her three times that Heinrich was fine before she got up again. You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
Did AW give Mina his engagement ring?? I mean, I guess it's not quite as bad as giving her his kids, but...
Yes, he did. It was also the ring he was wearing all the time. The fact that he did made the rounds quickly, since Lehndorff knows about this detail even before Heinrich's January visit to Berlin as executor of AW's will.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
so now I think it was another case of damned if you do, damned of you don't for her. (Her mother-in-law had critisized her as not sufficiently regal, after all.)
Yeah, first she got criticized for not talking, then she got criticized for talking too much and not having anything interesting to say. Then she's either not regal enough or too imperious.
Sucks to be her. :/
You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
This is ringing a bell now that you mention it!
Ziebura seems to think that Wilhelmine, like EC, had the misfortune of actually falling in love with, or at least developing feelings for, her husband.
No pity for the wives indeed. :(
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
I was a tad sceptical during my original reading of the diaries, but Sophie von Voss backs him up here - i.e. EC after SD's death trying to be more authoritarian (and failing at it)
I just got to the part where Amalie writes the "we all suck, except Louise, she's an angel" letter, and she too says that EC is authoritarian.
I remember when you first read this book to us and titled your post "Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern." I guess that's what Amalie titled her letter.
I like how she finishes it, "Let's be real: I probably suck too. [I was raised by Hohenzollerns, after all.]"
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Yes, Amalie ending her letter this way is what makes it more than an exercise in venting or even spite, and gave me a clue to her personality.
Lehndorff reports that Amalie and EC had their clashes when locked up together in Magdeburg during the various evacuations, with two main motives - when churchgoing, Amalie went to Reformed service, EC went to Lutheran church "and thus we have a schisma" said Lehndorff. (Remember, the Hohenzollern were Calvinists, not Lutherans, though the majority of their subjects were Lutherans, and so were the Braunschweig in-laws. And point of contention no2. was that Fritz kept asking for Amalie when wanting visitors during the war, never for EC, which was just humiliating. (Note that Heinrich did the same thing - as Ziebura points out, while his wife had to ask repeateadly for her household budget, he was worrying in letters to Ferdinand about his sister, and when visiting Berlin for the first time in years after AW's death, he asked Amalie to meet him ahead of his arrival in Berlin, not Mina.) I wouldn't be surprised if EC emphasizing that SHE was the Queen was connected to this.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Yes, I loved that she finished it like that <3 and I thought of your take on her when I read that.
"and thus we have a schisma" said Lehndorff.
Hee. (Also, seeing a quote from him after reading all this malicious stuff from Hervey is so refreshing!)
Remember, the Hohenzollern were Calvinists, not Lutherans, though the majority of their subjects were Lutherans, and so were the Braunschweig in-laws.
Ah! I had forgotten, thank you. This is one of those things I really should have remembered, given all the predestination and all -- although I guess part of this is that I tend to conflate "saved by God alone" with "predestination," despite valiant efforts by my spouse's (Lutheran) church members to inform me that this is Not Right :)
Also, now that I'm finally commenting on this part: HEINRICH. UGH. YOU ARE THE WORST. Well, it's good to get the problematic part of my problematic fave. I guess.
Oh no, wait, Fritz is also THE WORST:
The king invited them, but not his wife, to Potsdam and to the Turkish tent, where he had refreshments served to the ladies who wanted to watch the military parades in Berlin.
So let me get this straight... he invited his wife's sister but not him?? Good thing Louise was an angel :P
Edited 2020-09-20 05:14 (UTC)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
:D This is why it's funny! I love Lehndorff <3
So I feel like there is something sort of especially terrible about it being his engagement ring that he gave Mina. Not sure why I am fixated on this when the kid handoff thing was obviously way worse -- okay, yeah, probably so I don't have to look as hard at that part :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Okay, so my biggest comment on the Seven Years' War section is:
Ablenkung brachten kleine Ausflüge nach Fredersdorf zu den Podewils
"Little excursions to Fredersdorf at the Podewils' place brought some distraction."
I had to look this up: Podewils I know as Fritz's foreign minister, but my eyebrows flew up at Fredersdorf. Turns out that it's actually the name of Podewils' estate outside Berlin. Which makes sense, since all the -dorf(f)s we love or love to hate are etymologically -"village"s. The Podewils family mausoleum that our Podewils' son built is still there today, in Fredersdorf where lots of people live and commute to Berlin for work.
* This also led me to notice that Ziebura's index has a mistake: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf is listed as EC's brother Albert's chamberlain instead of Fritz's. I can see where, if you were reading the sentence where he shows up, you could parse "seinem" as referring to Albert instead of Fritz, but yeah, the index must have been put together by an editor or assistant who didn't know too terribly much about Fritz.
* AW trying to tell Mina about his feelings about his approaching death, her trying to cheer him up, and him withdrawing and realizing he had to lie to her too: I *knew* it! People who are dying often have a very hard time getting the support they need from the people around them, because those people are overwhelmed by emotions of their own. This is why I said I'd be totally behind AW if he chose to delude everyone to keep from having to perform emotional labor for them, as opposed to for their own good.
:(
* cahn have you been noticing Ziebura's frequent "despite several bloodlettings, so-and-so didn't get better"? You picked up on my comparable line in "Pulvis et Umbra", except that mine was meant to be humorous irony obvious to the reader (as it was to you), if not to the character whose POV this is, yet Ziebura seems like she's playing it straight? But it's really hard for me to tell that kind of nuance in German, so maybe not.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
AW trying to tell Mina about his feelings about his approaching death, her trying to cheer him up, and him withdrawing and realizing he had to lie to her too
I noticed that :( Yeah, poor AW :(
have you been noticing Ziebura's frequent "despite several bloodlettings, so-and-so didn't get better"?
YES I HAVE. Every time I'm like... man, I am so glad I don't live in the 18th century! Medical care has its own problems these days, but at least they don't BLEED YOU.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
No kidding. Re: Fredersdorf the village, Lehndorff, who was related to the Podewils, went there several times a year every year, which means searching for the name "Fredersdorf" will get you a lot of holidaying, as I learned early on. :)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
selenak: That, and when EC married Fritz, he actually (faked?) affection enough for her to satisfy Dad.
cahn: Yeah, and Ziebura quotes at least one letter from Fritz to EC during the Rheinsberg years that was... much nicer than anything afterwards that I know of. (to be fair, I've been told mostly of the not-so-great letters because those are the WTF ones, but...)
Per Blanning:
Frederick went out of his way to emphasize his affection, as in: “I very much look forward to being back in Rheinsberg and even more to the pleasure of kissing you… May God protect you, my lady! Please do not forget me, and permit me to embrace you with all my heart, be sure that I am totally devoted to you.” But a letter written two weeks later which he expressly stated was not to be shown to his mother was appreciably less fulsome, ending simply with “your most obedient servant.”
Also in Blanning, immediately before this passage, two things that had escaped my notice:
In 1738 [Fritz] sent Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Dessau on a secret mission to the Vice-Chancellor of the Holy Roman Empire, Friedrich Karl von Schönborn, to secure imperial assistance in getting the marriage dissolved. 64 Moreover, hitherto unpublished letters from Manteuffel to other correspondents, and from Frederick to a Lieutenant von der Groeben, indicate that he continued to maintain intimate relations with young officers of his regiment. 65
64: Rudolf Endres stated this in the discussion which followed the papers given by Peter Baumgart and Volker Press at a symposium held at Bayreuth in 1986— Manfred Agethen, “Diskussionsbericht,” in Heinz Duchhardt (ed.), Friedrich der Grosse, Franken und das Reich (Cologne and Vienna, 1986), p. 196.
65: Hahn, Friedrich II., p. 47.
Better citation needed for the first one; I extremely need more details for the second one. :P Hahn, based on selenak's rec and the fact that it's on Kindle and not terribly expensive, is on my maybe list for when I can actually read German. We'll see if he presents better citations (like, "I saw the letters and am reproducing excerpts here") than with the handsome hussar episode, where Selena only kind of accidentally ran across the actual source.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Just a progress report for tonight: Mina's just gotten shafted by Kalckreuth and Heinrich.
Also 20 pages of Wilhelmine memoirs, woot. I *think* she's getting slightly easier with practice. Which is good, because there's 400 pages of practice left. :D Also, these pages are longer than Ziebura's: about 100 words per page longer, according to my sampling.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
* Louise: you should pay me in Brandenburgian gold, because it doesn't matter whether AW's posthumous debts are paid a few months earlier or a few months later.
...Maybe it matters to the people who are getting paid? The economy's pretty shaky for all of you.
* Wait, Wilhelmine Encke was 12 when FW2 fell in love with her?? Also, wait, Ziebura's dates don't match Wikipedia's. According to Ziebura, she was 12 in 1764 (cahn, FW2 was 19), but according to Wikipedia, she was born December 29, 1753, so in 1764, she'd be 10.
Ziebura says she became his lover in 1766, at which point she would have been 14 according to Ziebura and 12 according to Wikipedia, and then official mistress in 1769, when she was 15 (and he was 24).
* Do I have this right?
Kalckreuth drops onto his knee and grabs Mina's hand just as his conspirator makes sure to lead Heinrich in. One of Mina's ladies was like, "It's not what it looks like! He was asking her permission to marry me!" Heinrich was like, "Dammit. I could have gotten a divorce. Okay, but now you have to marry her, Kalckreuth." Now loyal friend of Mina Fräulein von Morrien gets stuck married to jerk!Kalckreuth, living in East Prussia and dying in childbed a year later??
No good deed goes unpunished, I guess. :/
I'm sorry, Fräulein von Morrien!
Oof, looking at the dates, Ziebura says she was 12 years older than Kalckreuth, which means she was...41/42 when giving birth. I can see where that might have been an especially rough birth.
...Next time just punch him in the nose until he bleeds.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Wilhelmine Enke: Wiki doesn't agree with each other. German wiki names 1752 as her year of birth. The famous novel about her has her twelve when she meets future FW2, so presumably it draws on the same source Ziebura does for the birth date, which isn't wiki. (With 1769 named as the year the relationship turned sexual.) Either way, yes, she was young! Now, given all the other mistresses FW2 had were older, and given the relationship with her lasted a life time, I don't think he was into pubescent girls per se, but it makes it doubly infuriating that the Prussian media - and certainly Sophie von Voss - painted her as the evil seductress.
I'm sorry, Fräulein von Morrien!
So am I. The daughter she had with Kalckreuth was called Wilhelmine, after Mina, I assume. The son who get the memoirs dictated to and is all "my Dad: so misunderstood!" in the introduction was from a second marriage.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Wilhelmine Enke: Wiki doesn't agree with each other. German wiki names 1752 as her year of birth.
*facepalm*
One day, I will learn to countercheck German wiki! (Probably around the time I can read it without help, which we're getting closer to, woohoo.)
Now, given all the other mistresses FW2 had were older, and given the relationship with her lasted a life time, I don't think he was into pubescent girls per se, but it makes it doubly infuriating that the Prussian media - and certainly Sophie von Voss - painted her as the evil seductress.
Always blame the woman! I like Ziebura calling out "pious Louise" for not having a word to say about the 'sins' of her son, when Louise is going on about Elisabeth and how properly repentant she is.
Argh.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
it doesn't matter whether AW's posthumous debts are paid a few months earlier or a few months later.
Evidently, when she died 22 years later, her estate was used to pay off his still outstanding debts.
Wasn't Fritz still paying off 1730s debts in the 1760s? *searches* Yeah, to Joseph Wenzel, Prince of Liechtenstein, previous owner of the Antinous statue.
Lol, you guys.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
-man, I'm glad that Fritz was nice to Louise. Sigh.
-"Louise Amalie could sense from her own experience what [Mina] was feeling. She forgot her resentment and was friendly towards her." Aw Louise, you really are the best.
-"With regard to his successor, the king asked himself the worried question: \"How can a being who cannot control himself be able to control others?" ("Sire! Half the earth obeys you: are you yourself then, in your vast States, the only person you cannot keep in check?" --mildred, this is something Rodrigo says to Philip in Don Carlo :) )
she later remarked to her loyal friend, Count Lehndorff, that in all the years of their marriage they had only had eight happy days at most.
This is going to be a continual theme, but HEINRICH. YOU ARE THE WORST. I'm glad she had some friends, and that Amalie and EC and Louise and Fritz still liked her after the whole Kalckreuth thing *sigh*
Fritz: Well, I mean, I also got to tick off Heinrich. Win-win!
Lehndorff blamed Kalckreuth for all these twists and turns at the Rheinsberg court and accused the princess and her ladies of having followed his bad advice.
While I don't disagree, this is... definitely very much in character for Lehndorff *pats his head*
Friedrich wrote to his sister Ulrike von Schweden on June 10, 1767: [AW's son] was his father's image, he possessed all his good qualities without having his faults.
I know you guys have told me about this letter before, but IT IS STILL INFURIATING!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
* Typing up the chronology, I discovered that FW2's two (non-morganatic) marriages took place on July 14, 1765 and 1769, both at Charlottenburg. Same anniversary and everything.
* Rumors that Ferdinand's youngest kids weren't his--has this come up before?
* Ferdinand's first son, according to English Wikipedia (German wiki doesn't give the full names) is named...Friedrich Heinrich Emil Karl! 1769-1773. (Moral of the story: don't name your kid Beth, Cedric, or Karl Emil. :P)
* Ziebura when Fritz dies: "The mighty star that had held their lives under his spell and had determined their courses, was extinguished."
Blanning when Fritz dies: "The iron band that held them to their labors finally snapped."
Unconscious echo on Blanning's part? I wouldn't be surprised if this line was based on some contemporary account, though.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Rumor: it's in Ferdinand's German wiki entry, I think, but from what few mentions I could see in books, it doesn't seem to be based on more than widely shared dislike of his wife, love of gossip and the fact that Ferdinand post 7 Years War never lost the habit of appearing sickly in public. Lehndorff - who doesn't like Mrs. Ferdinand, repeatedly laments in volume 1 that marriage has changed Ferdinand, and much later suspects some of her kids being attentive to Heinrich because they're after the heritage - in the 1799 journal makes zero mention of this, and not in the previous journals, either. I'm assuming if he thought there was something to it he'd have mentioned it. Otoh, despite his dislike of Mrs. Ferdinand, he does mention she fusses over her husband and making sure he's always warm and comfortable when Lehndorff visits in the winter of early 1799, which is decades after they married, and Lehndorff isn't someone she'd want to impress at this point.
Karl Emils are doomed, clearly. At least when born into the Hohenzollern clan.
Well, Fritz as a star (making the others planets or comets?) is a far more flattering imagery than Fritz as an iron chain shackling involuntary laborers!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Thank you for the write-up of the (current) evidence for and against the Ferdinand rumors.
Well, Fritz as a star (making the others planets or comets?) is a far more flattering imagery than Fritz as an iron chain shackling involuntary laborers!
But is it more accurate, asks Heinrich. :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
I also thank you for the evidence writeup! Yet again Lehndorff is a treasure :D (I get the sense from your comments that a nontrivial part of his utility -- besides that he's so readable and engaging -- is that he really isn't someone that people feel the need to impress, I imagine particularly later on, so it's possible to take his observations at face value rather than worry too much about whether there are other factors at play.
Though I suppose the flip side to that is that in many ways he's not super self-aware so one has to filter through that, e.g. MESSALINA :) But that's better, I suppose, than having to filter through whether he's making up stories about his exes :P )
Only a few pages tonight: Louise is being comforted for the death of son Henricus Minor and the marriage of daughter Wilhelmine by getting to adopt little Friederike after MESSALINA, I mean Elisabeth, is sent off to Stettin, and extremely young!Wilhelmine Encke is now official mistress.
Because Wilhelmine's memoirs are harder, I've been starting with them and reading as much as I can, up to 20 pages, and then doing some Wives before bed.
Wilhelmine is getting easier! I did 20 pages again today, this time in one go, and not only am I reading faster and increasingly not thinking the English translation "out loud" in my head (this has been slowly becoming a thing for a while now), but today, for the first time, I found myself skimming some function words! I've been waiting and waiting for that.
It gives me hope that by the time reading group finishes, I'll be ready to start tackling some of the items on my list, many of them Katte-related. :D
That must have been hard on Elisabeth, but gosh, it must have been nice for Louise to have a kiddo around, especially after all of hers kept getting taken from her :( She sounds like an extremely maternal sort.
Fritz and AW: Only one way to raise an heir to the throne in this family, and it isn't leaving him to a mom who will be nice to him! Say goodbye to FW2, Louise! Karl Emil: *dies* Henricus Minor: *dies: Wilhelmine: *has to get married at age 16*
I guess it could have been worse, if Fritz hadn't decided to make up for being awful to AW by being extra nice to Louise. THAT WILL.
ETA: No Wives tonight, I was going to, but I think I'm going to try to go to bed early instead. But let me know where you get to, and I'll catch up.
FORTY pages of Wilhelmine memoirs today! And on a workday! My German continues to improve at breakneck speed. I'm behind on commenting, because I decided to focus on German reading today. I'm highlighting things I want to talk about in both Wives and Wilhelmine, and will try to catch up this weekend. I'm also marking items to add to the chronology.
Since we're getting close to the end of Ziebura, I'm starting to work on converting the Oster Wilhelmine bio. After I finish Wives, I want to tackle that one next. Then Lehndorff!
And I've also been low on time these days (idk, this is likely to be a thing from now on, now that the kids are going to bed later) so I'll probably also catch up discussion on the weekend (hopefully).
I second the awesomeness of your 40 page! The APs and I have travelled to the Alps today and will stay there for the next nine days, hiking and enjoying the scenery and the gorgeous food, which is great but means limited online time, so I won't be able to do any more write ups in the next few days, I guess.
:D That sounds amazing! I want pics! :D (including pics of gorgeous food if that's something you're interested in doing :D ) Have lots of fun!
and maybe I'll actually catch up with replying to your writeups in the next nine days, lol
Oh! This probably means I should do the yuletide fandom promo post, huh? I'll try to see if I can do that this weekend. Will probably mostly use the post from last year, at least for Frederician.
Permitted use according to the JSTOR terms of service:
Sharing of portions of Content with other individuals for the purposes of collaboration and discussion (for example, sending an individual Content item to a fellow scholar for the purpose of collaboration on a research project);
Aka, my friend, a German scholar, who is currently studying Lord Hervey and the Hannover family. ;)
I'm caught up to you in reading, and I'm caught up on Wives, though not Wilhelmine, commenting.
26 pages of Wives read today, and 20 of Wilhelmine! I have *one job* this weekend, and that's to read as much German as possible and see where I am on Monday. :)
I see you two updated the fic wishlist with your prompts of choice: woohoo! I shall begin pondering.
There's only a few pages of Wives left, so let me know when you've done it, and I'll catch up the following day. Meanwhile, I'm just plowing ahead with Wilhelmine. :)
I'm a couple pages from the end, will finish reading before bed. Writing up what I have now while I'm at the computer.
* Heinrich started behaving a bit better toward Mina immediately after Fritz died? Of course he did. She's no longer a reminder of Fritz's ongoing power and abuse, but past power and abuse, which is slightly less painful.
Sigh.
THERAPY FOR EVERYONE, BUT ESPECIALLY MINA RN
Fritz, I guess you get therapy by death, like you always wanted. "When I am there, I will be sans souci."
:(
Oh, lol at selenak's I'm almost starting to come around to Fritz' pov on Hannover versus Hohenzollern, but luckily your Ziebura read through reminds me this would be wrong.
I laughed really hard at that, in a facepalmy kind of way.
* Zomg, and no sooner does Mina start getting to participate in society again than her health takes a nosedive and prevents her? I knew she'd lost her sight and hearing at the end of her life, but Parkinson's (probably) too?! Parkinson's is the worst. :/
* And FW2 is now siccing people Mina doesn't like on her staff? For ten plus years?? THERAPY.
* On a lighter note, I love the image of EC being *shocked* at the scandalous newfangled waltz and averting her eyes. Kids these days. :P
ETA: Aaand, we're done.
Heinrich: *looks forward to Mina's death for 48 years* Mina: *outlives him by 6 years* Ha!
Which made me realize that, yep, that marriage lasted 50 years. Fritz/EC, 53. As I said about my grandparents' 61-year unhappy and abusive marriage: what a waste. :/ Divorce for everyone!
Also, yeah, things that didn't make it into the Heinrich bio.
Edited 2020-09-22 03:30 (UTC)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
-That detail about the last letter Louise wrote starting out normally and then by the last page she can't control her hand anymore :(
* Heinrich started behaving a bit better toward Mina immediately after Fritz died? Of course he did. She's no longer a reminder of Fritz's ongoing power and abuse, but past power and abuse, which is slightly less painful.
Ohhhhh of course, I should have realized this but mostly I was just relieved for Mina *sigh*
* And FW2 is now siccing people Mina doesn't like on her staff? For ten plus years?? THERAPY.
I knoooooow! What was UP with that, "oh, I'll move him as soon as I can," TEN YEARS LATER??
Which made me realize that, yep, that marriage lasted 50 years. Fritz/EC, 53. As I said about my grandparents' 61-year unhappy and abusive marriage: what a waste. :/ Divorce for everyone!
Geez. That is really a waste. :(
Yeah, it was a good decision to read this after Heinrich and AW, although I'm seriously side-eyeing both of them way more now. (Still OK with Heinrich fic for Yuletide, though! Just saying :) )
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
I meant to bring this up, but I have it in my head that I didn't, and I also can't find it in our discussions, so here goes: Ziebura *doesn't* think Kalckreuth tried to compromise Mina as a favor to Heinrich. She says he did it in order to bring Heinrich down with him by creating a scandal. Then she comments that Heinrich was disappointed when Mina was exonerated, because it would have given him an excuse to divorce her.
I mean, who knows what was going on in Kalckreuth's head; maybe compromising Mina was a win-win for him. Either Heinrich's grateful and takes him back, or he doesn't but now he's embroiled in a scandal.
Yeah. Kalckreuth, best of boyfriends.
I pity Fräulein von Morrien SO MUCH, marrying him to protect Mina and then dying in childbirth a year later. :/
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
Weeelll...if you assume Kalckreuth put in half as much effort with the much older woman he was forced to marry as a symbol of his humiliation *and* who played an active role (unlike EC and Mina) as he did with the prince who was, regardless of personal feelings, and let's hope there were some, his path to fame and fortune...
In other words, I hope so too, but I have my doubts. :(
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
Well, maybe he was one of those types who hated to be bad at something, including sex.
And you know that I think there were some feelings for Heinrich beyond ambition. I mean, an attempt like the one to see Heinrich again in the aftermath of Heinrich's second journey to Rußland (the one where Lehndorff got to give him the brush off and enjoyed every minute) could be because he still thought if they made up, he'd get back on track with fame and fortune. But after Fritz was dead, Kalckreuth's career revived and took off, big time, and Heinrich was out in the cold, so to speak, with no more influence or a career, yet Kalkcreuth wanted to see him again and at last reconcile, and did. Also, what I've read of his memoirs is ego-tastic, to be sure, but actually far more positive about Heinrich (and Fritz critical) than Ziebura led me to expect, and these were written in the 19th century, when the next generations were all Fritz worshippers and hardly knew who Heinrich had been anymore. In conclusion: Kalckreuth: a bastard and a jerk. But he did care about Heinrich.
...which of course doesn't make it more likely that he had a good sex life with his first wife, but like I said: maybe he was in a "I'll show you" mood. Also according to Lehndorff he had gotten a lot of the women of Heinrich's little court at his side, so he could be charming to the ladies if he wanted to be.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
And you know that I think there were some feelings for Heinrich beyond ambition.
Yes, and that is some convincing evidence. I buy it.
...which of course doesn't make it more likely that he had a good sex life with his first wife, but like I said: maybe he was in a "I'll show you" mood.
I hope so!
Also according to Lehndorff he had gotten a lot of the women of Heinrich's little court at his side, so he could be charming to the ladies if he wanted to be.
Definitely, and that did occur to me. Let's hope he kept it up with the heroine of this tragedy.
Could she have been so repulsive as Lord Egmont describes her -a fat and ill-shaped dwarf,with nothing good to recommend her, neither sense nor wit ?
*sigh* Misogyny strikes again!
In wishing to love the Prince so well he had ' ly'd egregiously; I am as incapable of wishing to love any Body else so well, as I am of wishing to love You less. God forbid any Mortal should ever have the power over me you have, or that you should ever have less. ... Adieu ,if Iwas to fill a thousand Reams of paper it would be only aiming in different phrases & still imperfectly to tell you the same thing, & assure you that since I first knew you I have been without repenting & still am & ever shall be undividedly & indisolubly Yours.'
LOLOLOL. Man, my days of considering this a gigantic soap opera are certainly reaching a middle.
The fact that he allowed other scandalous revelations (Miss Vane as Hervey's mistress, for example ) to remain in the copy of thememoirs is evidence that what he read and destroyed for the years 1730 to 1732 he regarded as far too shocking to remain among his family papers in either the autograph or the copy.
! maybe it was a hot threesome ...I see that mildred has already had this thought!
Indeed. The sheer level of body shaming combined with misogyny in the 18th century is enormous. (And continues into the 19th, of course; most of the caricatures aimed at Emma Hamilton even before Nelson dies present her as enormously fat. (She did gain weight even before Nelson died, but she also was pregnant twice (the second time she lost the child).) As to Miss Anne Vane, no one, including Halsband, bothers to explain why if she had no inner or outer qualities, and wasn't rich or titled, men kept being attracted to her. More soap opera:
Once Miss Vane's position as the Prince of Wales's mistress was conspicuously secure, Hervey's emotions shifted from jealousy (for having been betrayed) to resentment, far more intense, that she had induced the Prince to discard him as intimate adviser in favour of Dodington. He determined in April 1732 to revive the Prince's friendship for him , and went about it in a foolhardy fashion . Since Miss Vane had ruined that friendship , he reasoned, then she could restore it.He composed a letter and asked his brother-in -law Bussy Mansel to take it to her, telling him that it merely recommended a midwife. Actually it castigated her for the ill service she had done him with the Prince , and threatened that if she did not repair the breach he would divulge what he knew ofher, and use her as she deserved .Upon reading this scathing letter she fell into hysterics ; and Mansel, when he read it, swore he would kill Hervey for deceiving him by making him the messenger of such an affront. To prevent murder Miss Vane then told the Prince of the letter, and he somehow placated Mansel but bitterly resented Hervey's ill treatment of his mistress. The King, Queen , and Walpole, when they heard of it, were also incensed with Hervey for his interference in a Royal pastime. Aware too late of his iinprudence, Hervey tried to make amends. The King and Queen (and of course Walpole ) were satisfied by his penitence but not the Prince, who ( in Hervey's opinion ) ‘never forgot an injury or remembered an obligation ”. Their friendship was never restored .
As opposed to the relationship between Hervey and Miss Vane. Now you'd think after that letter, he'd have been the last man she'd ever want to see again, but lo and behold, some years later:
When he had heard of his mother's gift of the gold snuff -box (Fritz of Wales) announced that it was less to favour Hervey than to insult and outrage him , and that it was shocking for his mother to favour a man who the whole world knew had been impertinent to him and had threatened his mistress. For that reason, he told his sisters, he seldom visited the Queen. They replied that it was strange he should think of choosing his mother's companions as a condition of his paying his respects. Hervey's favour with the Queen thus widened the breach between himself and the Prince as well as between the Prince and his mother. But Hervey's relationship with Miss Vane had undergone a radical change in the opposite direction . Following their quarrel, when they had met among company and he had tried to speak to her she refused --- with the haughtiness of an injured princess — to bestow a glance or a word on him , though he addressed her in the most suppliant manner. After meeting in public places , however , they discovered that they wanted (in Hervey's words) ' to forget their past enmity, and renew their past endearments , till from ogling they came to messages, from messages to letters, from letters to appointments, and from appointments to all the familiarities in which they had formerly lived , both of them swearing that there never had been any interruption in the affection they bore to each other, though the effects of jealousy and rage had often made them act more like enemies than lovers'. This revival of their love affair had come about by the summer of 1734 . At first they met in an out of the way coffee-house , and then , after Miss Vane took a house at Wimbledon (for her son's health ), she came to town secretly once a week and they met at her house there, often passing the whole night together. Although they realized it was very indiscreet their 'mutual inclination to meet forced them to this dangerous course
Their renewed friendship and liaison arose from other reasons as well. Through Miss Vane, Hervey discovered that Bubb Dodington , the Prince's chief adviser, was being displaced by others , particularly Lord Chesterfield — a clear sign that the Prince was drawing closer to the political Opposition . She would thus be able to transmit useful information to him . Her renewed taste for him could have been stimulated by the Prince's gradual distaste for herself ; a year earlier, London gossip claimed that he had fathered a child on her chambermaid , for whom he then bought a house, and that he had tried unsuccessfully to gain the favours of an Italian opera singer. The renewed alliance of Miss Vane and Hervey, then, was based on love, jealousy, and politics intriguingly mixed .
It's worth bearing in mind, though, that Halsband's sole source for these subsequent shenanigans (i.e. all that happened after the initial fallout between Hervey and the Prince over Miss Vane, for which he quotes letters and satiric poems by all the other London wits) is Hervey himself in his trashy tell all memoirs. Which, mildred_of_midgard, yes, I'd like to have in the library. I mean, sadly due to grandson censorship they're missing the vital years of 1730 to 1732, and thus can't tell us among other things how Uncle George first reacted when he heard what went down in Prussia with FW and Fritz, but maybe there are other useful quotes in them, and they do sound very entertaining.
(Given all I've heard so far, I'm tempted to think G2's instinctive reaction was: "Look, I get the temptation to kill one's son and crown prince. I want to do that all the time. But if I don't get to do it, bloody FW certainly doesn't!")
If Wilhelmine had married Fritz of Wales and had thus become involved in this soap, complete with accusations of her first baby being either someone else's or her faking the pregnancy:
Oh, boy. Yeah, I can see Wilhelmine and SD taking that one lying down. Even Fritz!
My thinking precisely. The explosion would have been something to behold.
As to Miss Anne Vane, no one, including Halsband, bothers to explain why if she had no inner or outer qualities, and wasn't rich or titled, men kept being attracted to her.
This was my reaction! "Um, they must have seen something in her..."
He composed a letter and asked his brother-in -law Bussy Mansel to take it to her, telling him that it merely recommended a midwife. Actually it castigated her for the ill service she had done him with the Prince
I must admit I laughed. Hervey, here I thought Voltaire acted like an emo teenager... omg, that whole thing is just hilariously soap opera emo. (though in a way that sounds utterly horrible for Vane herself, of course)
Although they realized it was very indiscreet their 'mutual inclination to meet forced them to this dangerous course
Me: Wow! I guess... they must have been really attracted to each other -- Selena: It's worth bearing in mind, though, that Halsband's sole source for these subsequent shenanigans (i.e. all that happened after the initial fallout between Hervey and the Prince over Miss Vane, for which he quotes letters and satiric poems by all the other London wits) is Hervey himself in his trashy tell all memoirs.
Voltaire: It's not like there's anything wrong with fabricating stories about your ex when you've had a bad breakup!
:) I mean, I could be wrong. But when I checked and saw Halsband doesn't provide any other source than Hervey himself for the whole "Miss Vane wanted me so badly that she relaunched our affair in secret and even spied for me on Fritz of Wales, even though outwardsly we still pretended to be mortal enemies, so no one ever knew!" tale, my inner sceptic struck.
Incidentally, now that I've learned how Hervey behaved in his other love triangle, I must say the cattiness in writing Algarotti that Lady Mary's looks don't match her mind looks downright mild in comparison, and again, that he kept absolutely mum about all of it and the Lady Mary haters like Pope and Horace Walpole never found out says a lot.
Incidentally, now that I've learned how Hervey behaved in his other love triangle, I must say the cattiness in writing Algarotti that Lady Mary's looks don't match her mind looks downright mild in comparison, and again, that he kept absolutely mum about all of it and the Lady Mary haters like Pope and Horace Walpole never found out says a lot.
The biography itself is very drily written, but it contains valuable info re: the Berlin Academy, how it was set up, where they met, how it worked, the inner feuds, alliances and power plays, so it's a valuable research tool if one wants, say, write about Algarotti and/or Peter Keith having academic interactions.
In short:
Maupertuis: is born the son of an ennobled son of a privateer (= licensed by law pirate) in Saint-Malo, Brittany. He'll use the corsair association and imagery to make a splash at first, and it will even be used in his obituary. Parisian Voltaire (not born to an ennobled father but adding the "de" to his name just because he can) uses Maupertuis being from Brittany later when bickeringly corresponding with Fritz, if you'll recall. (Parisian rat Voltaire vs Breton mastiff Maupertuis. Fritz, of course, is a lion.)
His career goes very well the larger art of his life, his books are well liked; some of which are anonymously published, too, btw. And like Algarotti and the book Algarotti modelled his Newton for Ladies on which the dissertation names and I forgot, Maupertuis writes a "explaining science to a sexy lady" book. He did explain maths to Émilie early on, and Terrel quotes lettes of hers from that first period of aquaintance where she seems into him both mathematically and personally, so Maupertuis, at least, did practice the pedagogic eros in rl as well; Terrel points out that this was when a lot of writers discovered that lo and behold, female readers are a market, and not just for novels and poetry.
Speaking of, Voltaire at first was into Maupertuis as well, and claimed him as a Newtonian before Maupertuis had actually fully joined the Newtonian side of the force. (Terrel says that contrary to earlier assumptions, he wasn't yet a Newtonian when he visited England.) There's no sign of mixed feelings on Voltaire's part until Maupertuis has that military misadventure of getting captured when with Fritz at Mollwitz and Voltaire can't resist making fun of him back home in Paris, see earlier comment. Maupertuis is less than thrilled about this, but on the surface relations remain sociable and harmonius until they're both in Berlin at the same time, though a mutual acquaintance already said when the news came that Voltaire had finally given in and was on his way to Potsdam that this might not be such a good idea, because of the two egos (of Voltaire and Maupertuis, not Voltaire and Fritz). Back in the Cirey days, though, all seemed reasonably well, and I'm amused that when Maupertuis is preparing his big expedition and invites Algarotti along, our otherwise dry author observes that she can't think of what Algarotti was supposed to contribute to the expedition, "except for his company", since he wasn't a geometer, a surveyor or a man of action who couldn't have helped with the hardcore travel parts. Ms Terrell, hot stuff Algarotti was clearly part of the intendended entertainment for the Lappland nights!
The Lappland expedition - to prove the Earth flattens on top - is a big success and makes Maupertuis into an international celebrity who is much sought after in Europe from this point onwards. He does get into the Academie in France, so it's not like Fritz was the without alternatives, but then they didn't offer to make him head of the Academie which is what Fritz offered for the Berlin Academie, plus everyone wrote glowingly about the new philosopher king, so off to Prussia Maupertuis went, and got bored, see Mildred's tale about how all the intellectuals were widdling their thumbs while Fritz was off conquering Silesia. Maupertuis was the only one who made the mistake of following him into the field and getting captured. Then, as detailed in the earlier comment, after a few days he was identified by Count Neipperg and got ever courtesy, including a round trip to Vienna and then back to Berlin. By which time Voltaire from France and Fritz from nearer by cracked jokes and Maupertuis just about had it and left Prussia again. (I have to say, his story about his reception at Vienna, which is partly in the main text and partly in a footnote, would have deserved some authorial scepticism from Terrel. I can buy FS gave him a golden watch to compensate him from the one stolen from him in the scuffle of him getting taken prisoner, but the supposed dialogue with MT about who's the most beautiful Queen of them all really defies belief.)
Maupertuis does eventually return and takes his place as head of the Academy, and that's when valuable research stuff happens in this biography.
Fritz: I want the Academy to be a true republic of intellectuals. I'm just one of its citizens here, and I want you to treat my contributions as you do any other. Also, forget about the old place where the Academy, such as it was, met in my father's day, used to me and about the places where you met while I was off making war, I'm telling you where I want you to meet, of course.
Maupertuis: ...Okay. Academy members, we will model this Academy and its interactions on the new modern state of Prussia. I'm Fritz, of course. You're everyone else.
German academy members: We feel discriminated against anyway because of Fritz and his French hangup. I mean, we're not even allowed to hand in papers in our own language or Latin without also adding a translation into French at our own expense. And now we're getting bossed around not just by the King but this French guy who doesn't talk German at all? Grrr. Argh.
Maupertuis: Wolff, want to come?
Wolff: No way. I'm staying in Halle. Teaching in German.
Maupertuis: I'm getting a sense of some German hostility here. Also, all Germans are foodies. Direct quote: “Experience teaches me that there is nothing so prejudicial to the progress ofthe sciences in Germany as giving them too much to eat and drink. There is no one who will not abandon Homer when he hears the dinner bell. " Clearly, some more calling for discipline on my part is the way to proceed. After all, I'm the Fritz here.
Maupertuis: on the bright side, becomes bff with Euler and makes a friend in Kästner who is his eyes and ears in the camp of the enemy, aka Halle, where Wolff resides.
Maupertuis: Also gets married to Fräulein von Borck, scion of one of the old Brandenburg families
Mary Terrel: shame we don't know anything about her other than she did her best for her husband's work and memory to florish after his death, so she must have been devoted to him.
Mary Terrel: clearly hasn't read Lehndorff's journals, where Madame Maupertuis shows up a couple of times, notably when Amalie gives her some jewelry so she can make the journey to her dying husband in the middle of the war.
Early Academy feuding not starring either Maupertuis or Voltaire: *happens*
Maupertuis: *staying above it all* Remember, members: Dignity! Always dignity!
Émilie: *dies*
Mary Terrel: And then Voltaire showed up. "Friedrich had tried to woo him with flattering letters and with lavish gifts for years."
Voltaire: Lavish what? He haggled about my travel expenses!
König: Earlier, the Academy had done a competition like the one in Paris, I made an entry, and I lost. This endeared Maupertuis to me enormously.
Gottsched (remember him?) and other German intellectuals: We think the Academy is a bunch of foreign elitist snobs and their cowed German lackeys. If it's supposed to make local culture florish, where's the local culture in it? And how's the President ever supposed to get a clue about if he still doesn't speak German?
Maupertuis: *writes treatise and the principle of least action*
König: *writes attack on the treatise, complete with Leipniiz quote and accusation that Maupertuis isn't just wrong on the larger point, he also uses stuff Leipniz already said*
Maupertuis: How dare he! Of course I, as President, can't reply to this outrage in person. Faithful subjects, I mean, academy members, pray deal with König.
Quote: The generally hostile treatment of the management of the Berlin Academy in the German press had primed Maupertuis to respond forcefully to König, a more accessible and more vulnerable target than Gottsched or anonymous journalists. Seeing his scientific accomplishments and his personal integrity called into question, Maupertuis took steps to demonstrate his power to silence " scoundrels" . (...) Maupertuis made a strategic decision to focus on the authenticity of the letter, suspecting König's vulnerability on this point. As he explained later to d'Alémbert, “ instead of disputing with him , I limited myself to pressing him to produce the original, regarding it anyway as quite a mark of approval to want to attribute the basis [ofmy principle ] to the great Leibniz.” If all went well, the disciplining of König might be turned into positive publicity for the principle of least action . The Academy formally demanded that König produce the letter which turned out to be a copy, and then initiated a search for the original in Hermann's papers in Switzerland. Maupertuis used his prerogative to make the dispute a matter of honor for his institution and for the king. (...) Publicly, Maupertuis limited his concern to the existence and authenticity of the letter ; privately , he hoped to expose his accuser as a charlatan ,“ to bury König in the mud as he deserves." (...) Euler bent to the task with a will,no doubtharboring his own hostility to the Wolffian professor who had defended monads to the Academy a few years before:When König could not produce the letter,Euler submiitted a report, concluding "that (König's ] cause is completely 'untenable and that this fragment was forged, either to wrong M.de Maupertuis; or to exaggerate bý a pious fraud the praises of the great Leibniz ." 86 The evidence for forgery was circumstantial, bur König had muddied his claims with so many improbable and unsubstantiated explanations that Euler stated his condemnation in the strongest possible terms. In April 1752, the Academy voted unanimously to approve Euler's report, although there was some private grumbling about the president's righthold on power, and bitterness about the impossibility of dissent. A footnote here provides the direct quote from a German academy member: Weil Maupertuis alle Gewaltin Händen hat,und man nicht sehr laut gegen ihn reden darf , so ist die Verbitterung im Geheim desto stärker, und dises thut der Academie grossen Schaden " (Sulzer to Künzli, April 1752, quoted in Harnack , Geschichte, 1 (1 ): 338 , n.2 ).
And only at this point, according to Terrel, Voltaire enters the struggle.
Voltaire: I actuallly have no idea whether Maupertuis is correct about the principle of least action without Émiilie explaining it to me, but I do know a bully when I see one, and also, I could think of a better president of the Academy, namely, me. Be that as it may: have a satiric pamphlet. Or several.
Maupertuis: But...? Academy members: OMG! Europe: *Popcorn*
Terrel: and from this point onwards, no one cared about the principle of least action, or Leipniz. Voltaire had turned it into a literary quarrel, and then Fritz intervened, and at this point König and Maupertuis could do little more than watch along with the rest.
Maupertuis: Surely, with the King himself defending me, I don't have to respond to these outrages. Everyone will see right is on my, that is, our side!
Everyone: No idea who's right, but Voltaire is funnier. Also, did Fritz just burn a book? Mr. Enlightened Monach? OMG!
Maupertuis: *can't even enjoy the Frankfurt drama, because now he's in bad health*
Maupertuis: Okay, two more years in Prussia, but in late 1755 I'm off to go to France before the benefit of my health. Can I have paid leave, your majesty? I promise to comeback.
Fritz: That' what Algarotti said. But okay, you've been through a lot.
Maupertuis: *meets Voltaire's sworn enemy Fréron, a journalist*
Maupertuis: *writes to Fritz* Sire, until now I've kept a dignified silence, but now I've met this Fréron guy who says he can bury Voltaire, and I'm just thinking, how about I give him a tell-all to show how noble you've behaved in all this, defending me, and how dastardly Voltaire?
Fritz: I don't think that's a good idea.
Maupertuis: Sorry, Fréron, you can't be my revenge ghost writer, but I can tell you some stuff about Voltaire THAT UNSPEAKABLE BASTARD which you can use in some other pamphlets.
1756: Arrives. With the Diplomatic Revolution.
Fréron: So, dear readers, my personal conclusion is that Maupertuis and Voltaire are both dirty traitors to France who should never allowed Fritz to lure them away from la patrie anyway. Wasn't France good enough for them anymore? Stay tuned for me attacking Voltaire on the Mademoiselle Corneille front soon.
Maupertuis: OMG. Fritz and France at war? What is my duty here? If I go back to Berlin now, I'm definitely a traitor. But Fritz has been good to me, that making fun of my Austrian captivity post Mollwitz bit aside.
Some French friends: You could resign from your office as President of the Academy at least.
Maupertuis: No. That's part of my income. Also it's a nice honor. And Fritz would take it personal as hell. What if he wins this war and I can't go back to Prussia? My wife is there! This was just supposed to be some months back home in Brittany to recover my health!
Euler: Dear M, don't worry, I'm running the Academy for you. Take as much time as you need. The war will be over soon, surely.
Maupertuis: *tries to be diplomatic, congratulating Fritz on his military successes and asking for save routes from France to Berlin, but never actually going*
Maupertuis: *dies*
French Academy of Science: Traitor. Academy Francaise: No, a man of lettres and esprit! Have some favourite works! And his style! He paints with so much warmth , with so much liveliness , thathe transports us to the very places he describes. One scales with him the summits ofHorrilakero; one follows him on the frozen waters of Tornea; one flies at his sideon the fragile sleds of the Laplander."
Academy in Berlin: Total hero: Saint Malo is a kind of republic of Argonauts ; M.de Maupertuis's compatriots ... bring back to their fatherland (patrie) çiçhes which they have often devoted to the defense and health of that same country in the most glorious manner.M.de Maupertuis was the Jason of a different class of Argonauts . The treasures, he sought in the world's extremities are themost precious of all that enrich the mind, and he shared them not only with his country (patrie ),but with the whole human race.
Euler: He was the best. But seeing as he's dead now, and I've been running the Academy de facto since he left, how about making me the next President, Sire?
Fritz: ...You're German.
Euler: Fuck you. I'm off to St. Petersburg as soon as the war is over.
it contains valuable info re: the Berlin Academy, how it was set up, where they met, how it worked, the inner feuds, alliances and power plays, so it's a valuable research tool if one wants, say, write about Algarotti and/or Peter Keith having academic interactions.
That's exactly why I got it, and why I gave it to you. It was useful for "Lovers" already!
our otherwise dry author observes that she can't think of what Algarotti was supposed to contribute to the expedition, "except for his company", since he wasn't a geometer, a surveyor or a man of action who couldn't have helped with the hardcore travel parts. Ms Terrell, hot stuff Algarotti was clearly part of the intendended entertainment for the Lappland nights!
Lol! I noticed that! Dissertation author thinks he was supposed to contribute science, since he had experience reproducing Newton's experiments with prisms, and in fact was the first person in Italy to successfully reproduce the results.
But obviously you're right, Algarotti is supposed to be the antidote to the cold nights! I can just imagine our favorite people pleaser exhausted in the mornings from a less than restful night. :D
Maupertuis: Also gets married to Fräulein von Borck, scion of one of the old Brandenburg families
Terrell's footnote helped me figure out who the Borck was who was Peter's predecessor as Academy curator! We're definitely collecting Borcks; there were a few mentions in recent Ziebura reading, and those I still haven't sorted out.
(I have to say, his story about his reception at Vienna, which is partly in the main text and partly in a footnote, would have deserved some authorial scepticism from Terrel. I can buy FS gave him a golden watch to compensate him from the one stolen from him in the scuffle of him getting taken prisoner, but the supposed dialogue with MT about who's the most beautiful Queen of them all really defies belief.)
Right?
Maupertuis: ...Okay. Academy members, we will model this Academy and its interactions on the new modern state of Prussia. I'm Fritz, of course. You're everyone else.
I thought this was a very fascinating part of the book. And I totally believe the vote was unanimous because dissenters were intimidated, what with Fritz : Prussia :: Maupertuis : Academy.
Thank you for the hilarious and educational soap opera! I laughed and facepalmed with delight all the way through. :D You have a way with words; plus, this will make another excellent addition to rheinsberg.
Maupertuis: ...Okay. Academy members, we will model this Academy and its interactions on the new modern state of Prussia. I'm Fritz, of course. You're everyone else.
...wow! This... explains a lot.
Ms Terrell, hot stuff Algarotti was clearly part of the intendended entertainment for the Lappland nights!
HAHAHAHA I laughed out loud because it is true!
Voltaire: I actuallly have no idea whether Maupertuis is correct about the principle of least action without Émiilie explaining it to me
LOLOLOL ALSO TRUE :DDDD I did think that was very interesting in regards to the feud (and how König muddies the waters so much), and how Voltaire sails in and makes it a literary drama instead of a mathematical/plagiarist one. ...Was König right (or does anyone now think he was), does Terrell say?
Also Euler! Man, Fritz, if you hadn't had such a hangup about German you could have had *Euler* as your Academy President!
Doesn't it just? Among other things, why I don't doubt Voltaire had a variety of self-related motives for his intervention - from possible leftover Émilie-related jealousy to present day Fritz related jealousy -, Maupertuis running the Academy like an absolutist state was bound to stir him into action sooner or later. Voltaire: never met an authority figure or institution in his life he didn't at the very least needle if not actively antagonize.
Terrell gave me the impression that mathematically, Maupertuis was right, but he was wrong to accuse König of forgery.
Cahn: I'm very happy about a list of ideas! A document in the library, I guess? I feel like at Yuletide I've been like, "...what were those fic ideas I wanted again??" and I am sure there are several I'm just totally forgetting.
I was thinking about the possibility of putting the fic snippets on AO3 itself so that other people could read them :) (Oh come on, doesn't everyone want to read the outline of Fritz/Joseph marriagefic? OF COURSE THEY DO.) I was thinking maybe just one AO3 work, with each different snippet as a different chapter. Rheinsberg would work too, of course.
I'm for collecting all the prompts at a Rheinsberg post. Not sure about the round robin and fic snippets at the A03; for now, I'd rather see them also at Rheinsberg.
I'm more inclined to Rheinsberg myself for snippets, especially since some of these are getting turned into actual fics.
For the list of prompts, I'm with cahn about a document in the library, because it has the advantage of being editable by all three people. What I'm hoping for is not just a list of the ideas we've proposed, because I can look those up, but which ones are going to make someone especially happy if I invest the time in researching and writing them, because that's very motivating. :)
So a doc that all three of us could update as we got especially excited about an idea or less excited about an old one would be great.
I can create the doc and start populating it if people are on board with it, and then you two can add your own preferences (and keep updating as your interests evolve)?
I'm also happy to start putting snippets in Rheinsberg if we have agreement. I think there are enough of them that it makes sense to put them in separate posts and tag them, as opposed to one post behind cut tags. And of course, as time goes on, that number will only grow!
Hooray! I've nominated Fritz, Voltaire, MT and Lehndorff as agreed. Mind you, despite the fact I used the same tag I did last year for MT (to ensure she won't get mixed up with any other MTs of which there are alot), to wit, "Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria (Frederician RPF)", the sign up keeps throwing Maria Theresia (1767 - 1823) at me, which our MT decidedly is not. I never enter it, but when I review the sign up, it's there.
I also went ahead and nominated "18th Century CE European Enlightenment RPF" with Émilie, Pompadour, Hervey and Madame Denis; cahn, your turn!
fandom: 18th Century CE Frederician RPF character 1: Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802) character 2: Catherine II of Russia character 3: Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758) character 4: Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
fandom: 18th Century CE Enlightenment RPF character 1: Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu character 2: Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis character 3: Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788) character 4: Francesco Algarotti
Also, I had to change some of the writeup for last year and I added a bunch of links to rheinsberg. Any more good relevant ones you want me to put in?
But someone else is going to have to write about how great Emilie is, because I tried briefly and I honestly don't know enough about the Enlightenment not to sound dumb doing it :P
FANDOM NAME: 18th Century CE Frederician RPF Content notes: Really abusive and dysfunctional family WHAT MAKES IT GREAT: Would you like a fandom with all kinds of canon slash tropes (mean abusive dad who might have been suppressing his own slashy tendencies, tragic love story with loyal best friend)? Would you like a fandom about a magnificent bastard royal figure who is a modernist and reformer (and very much into freedom of speech and religion) for his time but also likes to invade various territories for fun and profit? Would you like a fandom with interesting, layered female characters, including a woman who becomes Empress despite all of Europe thinking this is hilarious being that she's a WOMAN?
Let me introduce you to Frederick the Great / Friedrich II / "Fritz" fandom. Boy/adolescent Fritz is beaten and publicly humiliated by his father (Friedrich Wilhelm), and his boyfriend (Peter Keith) is deported when his father catches them. He falls in love again, and he and his new boyfriend (Hans Hermann von Katte) try to escape, but dad catches them and executes Katte -- and orders Fritz to watch (though evidence seems to show that Fritz was not in fact made to watch). Katte's last words are some variation on, "I die for you with joy in my heart!"
Fritz earns his freedom by marrying a woman (Elisabeth Christine), whom he sees... approximately once a year, for dinner. He eventually becomes king when his father dies, at which point he turns out to be pretty much a spectacularly magnificent bastard. On one hand, Voltaire reports on Fritz' liberal tendencies that he said, "In this country, there is freedom of conscience and penis." On the other hand, Fritz also goes around breaking treaties and invading people on paper-thin and/or really zero justification. Hilariously, he first writes the Anti-Machiavel, basically saying "You should definitely positively not break treaties and invade other people just because you can," and then a whole three months later invades Maria Theresia's province of Silesia, just because he can. (Later he tells his people to go look for a historical claim to Silesia, which they find.) Maria Theresia, meanwhile, fights three wars with Fritz, after which he gets to keep Silesia.
WHERE CAN I FIND IT? (optional): The best primer for this for a total beginner is probably selenak's primer on this as a TV show, complete with imagined fanon responses.selenak and mildred_of_midgard have been gracious enough to welcome me to their fandom by telling me all kinds of wacky stories about it. Much of these collected stories, synopses of various interesting bits about these characters, and various research can be found at rheinsberg (which I've linked to copiously in this post).
In haste: that is a great promo post! The mountains are calling, so it would be fabulous if Mildred could do the one for our enlightenment crowd (and their love triangles, quadrangles, and other geometric forms *g*). To get people curious about Émilie, I'd like maybe to some of the YouTube vids starring her, say, the trailer and excerpts from "The Marquise du Chatelet defends her life" which I've linked some posts ago, and I recall there is also a very useful YouTube link explaining why Émilie manages to unite both Newtonian and Leipniz ideas in her approach. Haven't yet looked for Lady Mary vids, but I bet there are some.
The reason I specifically ask is that you have the key Katte nomination, and this way if anyone else is thinking of nominating in the fandom, they will not have to repeat that nomination, and further will know that it's in the tag set before it comes out. Trying to maximize your chances of getting Katte fic! :)
(Apologies if you already did and my search-fu is not good enough.)
No, I didn't. It's on my list of things to do after work today. Reason I didn't do it yesterday: I got enough sleep yesterday and decided to do things that require more sleep and put off more mechanical things till today, on the assumption that I would not get enough sleep today, which proved to be an accurate prediction.
On that note, odds of me being up to an Enlightenment write-up today are slim. Sorry. :( But I will do the nomination coordination stuff, and put the Oster bio through the translator!
Man, I hope I get enough sleep to write Yuletide fic. The last time I had solid sleep was October of last year, right before Yuletide started. :/
Ugh, I'm sorry about the sleep! Take care of that first, of course. No big deal about an Enlightenment writeup, worst thing that happens is I write something that sounds super dumb and you guys edit it :)
I hope you get enough sleep to write Yuletide fic too!
worst thing that happens is I write something that sounds super dumb and you guys edit it :)
...You might have to do that!
Oster uploaded. Let me know if there are any problems accessing it. Lady Mary correspondence volumes 1-3 on their way to USPS, per tracking info updates. Yuletide nomination coordination done.
Reading of Wilhelmine, vol. 1, not quite finished, but hopefully before bed. Ugh, tired.
I hope you get enough sleep to write Yuletide fic too!
Fingers crossed! I should add that the bulk of RMSE writing happened in a brief period when I was getting adequate sleep, only during the day, and writing at night. Since that's not very lucrative, I've switched to being awake during the day, putting in as many hours at work as I can, and hoping my brain gets the message about sleeping at night sooner or later.
OK! I have to finish up some stuff for work tonight, but I'll try to do something along this line tomorrow if you don't get to it by then. (gah, one of these days I will actually say something coherent about the last part of Wives! Maybe.) Same with Oster, which I probably also won't get to tonight.
Hm. Do you think your body finds daytime a better time to sleep?
Thank you!! (Also, hmm, I just went to look for what we were naming this and morbane seems to think it's still too broad. I wonder if we should maybe even just go with "Francesco Algarotti's friends and lovers," lol. Mods don't have to know that this is still extremely broad Though since no one but us will have heard of Algarotti, I actually kind of wonder whether we should put Voltaire in the title (something like "Voltaire's friends" or "Two degrees from Voltaire"??) -- that way other people will be interested as well, and I think most of the people we are trying to nominate could be connected to him in some way?)
FANDOM NAME: whatever we end up naming it WHAT MAKES IT GREAT:
The Age of Enlightenment was a time in the 18th Century when philosophers and scientists got very excited about reason! science! liberty! and other such matters. [this is the bit that sounds dumb to me, please fix this]
There were some very interesting and cool people who were part of this movement. My favorite is Émilie du Châtelet, who was super awesome. She was Voltaire's lover, but she could run circles around him in terms of science and mathematical prowess. Her mathematics tutor wrote to a friend when he first began giving lessons to her and to Voltaire that she was 'altogether remarkable,' while he could not even make the other understand what mathematics was. She couldn't find a good textbook to teach her son physics, so she just wrote her own! She wrote a translation/analysis of Newton's Principia (and was correcting the proofs while recovering from childbirth, and sent them off a day before she died) that was so great that it is still the standard in France today.
She was part of a larger group of people who were also really interesting (though Émilie is my fave). [Depending on whether we're calling out the relationship to Voltaire] Voltaire is, of course, fascinating: he was always there for the underdog, although if you weren't an underdog you were likely to feel the sting of his pen! Francesco Algarotti was a polymath and dabbled in all kinds of different things, including having sex with... quite a lot of people! Including a love triangle with the writer Lady Mary Wortley Montagu and the politican and writer Lord Hervey (who also got embroiled in other political-sexual scandals related to the royal family).
Basically, this whole thing is a giant soap opera, with Émilie as the Mary Sue super-heroine, only she's actually real :D
WHERE CAN I FIND IT?(optional): I'll put in the clips here, as well as link to the rheinsberg post, but I need to sleep now so will do it tomorrow, or after we find a name for our fandom...
I did consider "Six Steps of Francesco Algarotti" as an alternative label. :) "Age of Voltaire" - which the Engligthenment is actually referred to in France - might do, BUT I've also just mustered a defense based on precedent and connection for the current label in my reply to Morbane, which also features cross connections for the characters we've nominated, check it out. :)
Do you think your body finds daytime a better time to sleep?
Somewhat, but I feel like that's the least of the problems. The biggest of my many sleep problems is that once my sleep gets disrupted, it stays disrupted for a very long time. Naturally, it also gets disrupted extremely easily. :/
I have to say, as much fun as it was being online at the same time, it's *way* better for my sleep for you not to be leaving comments right when I'm trying to go to bed. My willpower isn't that strong! Tell your kids they have my permission to stay up late. :P
. She obviously doesn't remember for sure that they called Suhm Diablotin, and *everyone* has a devil nickname for Manteuffel, for obvious reasons.
On the other hand! Maybe Manteuffel was Diable, and his very short successor was Diablotin. That actually makes sense.
It does, and it's entirely possible that this was an early Suhm nickname before everyone got to know him better, and then Fritz named him Diaphenes for the reasons your beautiful story provides.
Lady Darlington aka Sophia von Kielmannsegg: speaking of putting the pieces together, her mother was the same Countess Platen wo played a role in bringing the Sophia Dorotha the older/Count Königsmarck affair out in the open and thus getting SD locked up for life and Königsmarck killed. No wonder SD was wary.
It does, and it's entirely possible that this was an early Suhm nickname before everyone got to know him better, and then Fritz named him Diaphenes for the reasons your beautiful story provides.
Exactly what I was thinking! If your predecessor is "Devil", "Little Devil" is exactly what you get called when you first show up, he's still fresh in everyone's minds, and you're short. ;)
"Diaphanes" may actually have been as late as 1736. I have no evidence for it before that, and Wilhelmine (who's admittedly been away for years) doesn't seem to know about it.
her mother was the same Countess Platen wo played a role in bringing the Sophia Dorotha the older/Count Königsmarck affair out in the open and thus getting SD locked up for life and Königsmarck killed.
Ooooh. Wow, yeah, it's good to know about all these little connections.
* Okay, now SD is trying to make the marriage happen by going through her father G1's mistress the Duchess of Kendal, whom I recognize as Katte's "aunt" Melusine. I'm so glad I waited a year to reread these memoirs so I could pick up on a bunch of minor characters.
* Wilhelmine agrees about Anglo-centrism: she gets introduced to G1's retinue, they all say she looks English and speaks English like a native and is clearly destined to be their queen someday, and she writes: "This means something, since the English think of themselves as the best, and if they say someone could pass for an English(wo)man, they think this is the highest praise they can give."
You're not wrong, Wilhelmine!
* On Cardinal Richlieu: Did too much evil to be praised, too much good to be spoken evil of.
* Lol at SD trying to distract FW by claiming Wilhelmine says her dog is better than SD's dog, and Wilhelmine, playing along, is like, "But of course! My dog is so sweet and smart! <3 <3 <3"
Also, good to know she has her own dog already. I know one of the famous paintings of Fritz and Wilhelmine as small children has a dog in it, but I've always been curious at what age they got to have their very own dogs. I mean, since staff was going to take care of it anyway, maybe from the beginning?
Did Fritz have a dog that missed him while he was in Küstrin? Did he get it back at Ruppin? Did he have to get a new dog? Did he not get to have a dog until Rheinsberg? I need to know these things!
I'm assuming Fritz got to have a dog as a boy but possibly no longer once he was a teenager, since as opposed to Wilhelmine he's now part of the army and gets run ragged by Dad? But that's just guessing. Now that I think of it, Biche is always described as the first Italian Greyhound, not the first dog Fritz ever had...
Sudden thought: dogs are used for hunting. Maybe when FW was trying to make Fritz the hunter happen, he got a hunting dog as bribery?
Or maybe FW thought dogs were for girls and women, full stop, but I doubt it, since the picture of him as a kid is showing him with a dog as well, and he's stroking its head.
I'm assuming Fritz got to have a dog as a boy but possibly no longer once he was a teenager, since as opposed to Wilhelmine he's now part of the army and gets run ragged by Dad? But that's just guessing.
That's always been my guess too! But yes, it's just a guess.
Sudden thought: dogs are used for hunting. Maybe when FW was trying to make Fritz the hunter happen, he got a hunting dog as bribery?
Maybe! I know that when FW was dying, he's supposed to have let the Old Dessauer take his pick of the royal hunting dogs, since he knew Fritz wasn't interested.
Or maybe FW thought dogs were for girls and women, full stop, but I doubt it, since the picture of him as a kid is showing him with a dog as well, and he's stroking its head.
Am I recalling correctly that that was a hunting dog, though? I've always seen Fritz described as unusual not in that he loved his dogs, but that he was a male monarch who loved lap dogs with no purpose other than keeping him company.
Also, one thing that always struck me as weird was that Fritz said when he was being forced to hunt as a teenager, he used to stop the dogs, but "I had to be careful: if I'd stepped on one (si j'avais marché sur un), the King would have screamed." Source: Catt's diary.
Maybe I'm just not clear on the logistics of the hunt here, or maybe "marché" is something other than "stepped on" (I know it's "walk" most often). But Fritz is having to be careful not to step on dogs, not because he doesn't want to hurt the dog, but because FW would be upset at Fritz sneaking his way out of the hunt? Otherwise, he would totally step on the dog? I mean, I can see FW's hunting dogs being a form of torture rather than a creature he feels empathy for, but I feel like I'm missing something here.
The complete passage, which is very telegraphic:
Il voulut que je fusse chasseur. On me donna toute l'éducation convenable. Il fallait courir: j'arrêtais les chiens; et il fallait bien prendre garde. Si j'avais marché sur un, le Roi aurait crié. Le piqueur était bien aise que j'arrêtais.
Translation, at a guess:
He wanted me to be a hunter. I was given the appropriate training. It was necessary to run: I used to stop the dogs, and I had to be on my guard. If I had walked/stepped on one, the King would have yelled. The master of hounds was glad that I would stop.
My best guess: "I used to slow the dogs down", not "stop the dogs".
Ooh, that makes sense! I was thinking of Fritz's claims that he used to read during the hunt, but of course, if everyone is still moving, just more slowly, then he might very well accidentally step on a dog's foot and have to watch out.
* Suhm cameo! FW is going to Saxony, Fritz is sad because he's not invited, Wilhelmine tells Suhm, Suhm tells Augustus the Strong, and Augustus obligingly invites Fritz, and FW lets him come. And then the whole insane Dresden interlude ensues.
Wilhelmine says she knew Suhm "very well" and he was very friendly to her brother. <3
* I was right about Wilhelmine attributing her brother's interest in people who were not her to the lack of governor's influence: immediately before Peter Keith is introduced, she says, "Dad was whaling on Fritz more than usual, nobody dared to talk to him, his governors didn't dare to follow him around and regulate his behavior, so he led a very dissolute life, with Page Keith as his pander."
Fritz is in disgrace with his father and therefore the people appointed by FW to make him behave don't dare speak to him to make him behave?? Much more likely: Keyserlingk was like, "Wow, this kid's life sucks. I think I'll look the other way while he explores his sexuality. Then someday I'll be on the top 6 list of most loved, and he'll cut my daughter some slack while she has sexual adventures after my death."
Wow, she doesn't like his boyfriends. cahn, just as a reminder:
[Fritz] entirely abandoned himself to debaucheries. One of the pages of the king, named Keith, was the pandar of his vices. This young man had found means to insinuate himself so much, that the prince was passionately fond of him, and gave him his entire confidence. I knew nothing of his irregularities, but I had noticed some familiarities which he had with this page, and I often reproached him about it; representing to him that such manners were unsuitable to his rank. But he excused himself, saying that as the young man reported to him all that passed, he was induced to treat him kindly; particularly as the information he conveyed to him, saved him from many vexations.
Classist, homophobic, or both? I mean, I know it's a cover for "Don't leeeeave meeeee!", but given that she can't say that in so many words, how would Fritz have perceived it?
Also, lol at Peter as pander. I mean, I'm sure if Fritz wanted to meet with Doris or Orzelska-in-disguise, Peter would help! But yeah, things are going to be interesting when it's Fritz, Wilhelmine, Katte, and Keith in exile in France together. I bet she'll write an opera. :P
* Wilhelmine on Fritz of Wales, the love rat:
A man who has mistresses, becomes attached to them, and to that degree his love for his true spouse diminishes.
This is so telling: love is a zero sum game, Fritz can't have boyfriends or love his wife, her husband definitely can't have mistresses, and she is *not* down for polyamory. She's in the majority, even today, obviously! But that possessiveness is very IC.
* Herr von Knyphausen cameo! Assuming it's the same guy, and since he seems to be hobnobbing with foreign envoys, I think it is...we know him as 1) the go-between for Fritz and French Count Rottembourg, since Rottembourg and Fritz had to pretend not to be interested in each other while they spied on FW and tried to arrange a coup, and 2) Peter's future father-in-law. Although he will die 10 years before Peter and Ariane get married, and it's
Ugh, German wiki tells me that in addition to having been envoy to places like France, Spain, Russia, and Denmark back in the day, he was also president of the Brandenburg-African company, aka the Prussian slave trade, until F1 dissolved it. Bad Knyphausen.
* FW threatening to lock Wilhelmine up with the guy he's trying to get her to marry, the Duke of Weißenfels, and says that after that, she'll be only too glad to marry him. Is that a rape threat or just a loss of reputation threat?
* According to Wilhelmine, Jean-Charles de Folard, who Wikipedia tells me was a famous military theorist, did a detailed description of the Zeithain camp. I would very much like to get my hands on that, since I really want a detailed description beyond what I've been able to find online so far. (Reason: fix-it fic opens with Fritz and Katte at the camp, where they make their escape from.)
* Remember the rats at Küstrin story, where Fritz tells Wilhelmine that ghosts are mostly rats?
Wilhelmine recounts a similar episode, where she and SD were hanging out and heard some horrible shrieking sound in a nearby corridor, but every time they went to investigate, there was nothing there. SD told her to mark the date, and it turned not only to be the same day that Fritz got arrested for trying to escape while on a road trip with FW, but the same corridor on which FW and SD had their first encounter when an angry FW returned.
Wilhelmine: "I believe there was a natural cause."
She never figured out what it was, but she evidently agrees with Fritz on the supernatural.
* Wilhelmine is corresponding with an imprisoned Fritz secretly, but can't bring herself to burn the letters, so she has them sent to safety. This means she might actually have had access to them all when writing the memoirs. She does claim to be copying some verbatim, but I'd always assumed most of them got burned. Guess not!
* Wilhelmine: repeatedly mentions that she got married for Fritz, and later will complain that he wasn't grateful. Does not mention, at least as far as I've read, and I've gotten to the Berlin revue in May, that Fritz wrote her a letter telling her not to, i.e. that he was willing to sacrifice himself for *her*.
hahahaha, yeah, I remember from my Vol 1 readthrough that she really didn't like his boyfriends! Also that she tooooooold Fritz over and over again that escaping was was a bad idea! (It was a bad idea, Fritz, sorry.)
Remember Katte's interrogation, which greatly emphasizes how he tried to talk Fritz out of it and throw up lots of obstacles, and never ever actually encouraged it except in order to prevent it from happening? And how none of us actually believe that's the whole story? Especially given that 1) he wanted to stay in England permanently just a year before, 2) he totally admitted he would have gone if Fritz had gone?
And you know how Oster is constantly emphasizing the ways in which Wilhelmine's memoirs were written with the benefit of hindsight and attribute a lot of correct opinions and emotions to her that the contemporary documentary evidence at least partially contradicts?
And how Oster is highly skeptical that Fritz's closest confidante knew that he wanted to escape in general, but had nooo idea about the concrete details of this particular plan?
And how Fritz was pawning jewelry that Wilhelmine and SD had given him, supposedly without telling them why he wanted it?
And how Wilhelmine claims she and SD had to destroy a bunch of letters, and Katte may have risked his life to make sure they got destroyed, NOT because they showed her personal involvement in the escape plan, but because of double-marriage scheming and trash-talking of FW? But now that the letters are destroyed, we don't know *what* they contained?
...Yeah.
Now, I'm willing to believe both Katte and Wilhelmine were reluctant conspirators. Especially Wilhelmine, who didn't have any prospect of escaping with him, and who would be punished, and, most of all, left behind, notwithstanding Fritz's optimism that the Hannovers will help make everything work out for her in the long run. And both Wilhelmine and Katte could probably see that this wasn't the most well-thought-out plan ever.
But did Wilhelmine try to help make it happen, give him her jewelry, etc? We'll never know, but none of the evidence we have is exactly inconsistent with that. It's not like I think she'd admit it in her memoirs, even after Fritz is king (and even if she wasn't writing under threat of torture, like Katte, her memoirs were started when FW was still king, remember), not after the plan failed catastrophically and even Fritz is regretting it.
Oh, and speaking of Katte risking his life over those letters, I meant to point out in the Oster thread that Oster reports that Katte stayed behind because he didn't think there was any danger of Fritz fleeing when he, Katte, had the money--and adds that this was a disastrous miscalculation that cost him his life, *and* that his reasoning was incomprehensible, since Fritz was telling Katte to meet up with him in the Hague, so Katte should have known lack of money wouldn't be an obstacle.
To which I'm like, "Yeah, so MAYBE that wasn't Katte's real reason??" This kind of thing is what I mean by not being impressed with Oster's scholarship: there are so many other reasons given in our sources, even in Wilhelmine's memoirs, for Katte's lingering that you can't just take the one from his interrogation (under threat of torture! where he has to deny that he had any reason to believe he knew his arrest was impending!), announce that his reasoning doesn't make any sense, and stop there.
Like, just out of sheer psychology, even if we had no other sources, I could come up with other reasons someone might choose to stay. Not least that if you stay, you at least haven't committed desertion and can hope to insist on your innocence (an argument that carried some weight during the trial and would have gotten him a ten-year imprisonment if not for FW), whereas if you flee, you *have* committed desertion, and you're in Berlin, not Wesel, and you might GET CAUGHT.
Seriously. That's not even taking into account the actual reasons given by Fritz and Wilhelmine for why he lingered, both of which are plausible if you consider the evidence external to them that Katte did know his arrest was coming and had to deny it.
That's *also* not taking into account the documentary evidence that he requested leave to go into the countryside and received it, but didn't get to use it in time to get out of Berlin before his arrest.
Oh, and Oster does something that I've seen other biographers do: quote Wilhelmine saying Katte was so indiscreet as to go around telling "the whole city" about the escape plan, and implicitly chide Katte for it, without recounting that the actual episode in her memoirs went like this:
Some courtiers: Hey, Wilhelmine, you know that Katte is telling everyone your brother wants to escape? Wilhelmine: Katte, how could you?! Katte: I never did! I only told Lovenorn, who's totally on our side. [He will later be the one who supposedly tells Katte his arrest is coming and he'd better get the hell out of Dodge, and Fritz will still be remembering him fondly and wanting to know how he's doing nine years later.]
Now, maybe Katte *was* indiscreet! I'm not absolving him just on his own word. But nobody, when citing this passage, ever seems to point out that even Wilhlelmine says he denied it. We simply have no way of knowing.
And if you think, well, obviously some people know Fritz is planning an escape and it involves Katte, so someone must have told someone something!...remember, Rottembourg in Madrid 2 years earlier knew Fritz planned to escape, and I totally believe Wilhelmine's account that Katte was running around telling everyone that the Crown Prince loved him and confided in him. That's how you act whether you're genuinely head over heels in reciprocated love or just exploiting a royal for all the favor you can get out of him while pretending to be in love with him.
It wouldn't have been that hard to put two and two together, even if Katte had kept totally mum about the escape (and I'm not saying he did).
So, yeah. I feel like a lot of reading between the lines needs to be done for this whole episode, given how everyone after the fact wants to disclaim any connection with the catastrophe.
Lol, I'm reminded of what I was reading immediately before I switched to Fritz: 4th century Athenian oratory, where as soon as the Peace of Philocrates was seen to have failed miserably, Athenian politicians were falling all over themselves to announce that they knew it was a bad idea from the beginning.
Yes, and it works both ways: when Kennedy was killed and for years became a shining idol, way more Americans recalled voting for him than ever did. Also, when I talked with my AP about the battle of Hochkirch he at first refused to believe everyone except for Fritz said making camp there was a terrible idea and that the Austrians would attack and cited just this phenomenon. My counter argument was that the early historians invested in the legend of Fritz the genius general had to resort to the story of the double agent spy giving Fritz false intel to explain his misjudgment there, and that it was far less popular to write "the King had made a mistake, and we pointed this out to him before the fact", not to mention risky in an absolute monarchy.
re: did Wilhelmine know more about the escape plan than she later admitted, given how it turned: FW certainly believed she did, and it would work with the need to destroy those letters and her giving Fritz jewelry to pawn. It would even work with the later "I sacrificed myself for his freedom" without mentioning Fritz told her not to re: the marriage, because while she can talk about the marriage, she wouldn't be able to talk about the earlier escape attempt, if she was involved - and if she helped him there, she certainly would have been willing to risk FW making her pay in the worst way for his, had Fritz succeeded, and it would have been a sacrifice. (Honestly, there's no way I can see FW allowing Wilhelmine to marry a Hannover afterwards. She'd have been extremely lucky if he married her to anyone at all, as opposed to do what he claimed he'd have done in the 1731 submission scene - shut her into into the worst prison he could find.)
This prospect is why I'm also not 100% sure she'd have done it. If she believed Fritz would otherwise die or commit suicide out of desperation over FW's treatment of him, then yes. But give up the brother who was her main source of affection, possibly forever, and face a future of becoming Dad's favourite punishment target, when there's still a chance that if Fritz holds out some years more, FW dies and Fritz becomes King? Not sure.
Re: why Katte remained in Berlin, Fontane is with you, as you might recall. He thinks Katte remained because of his knightly instincts and because he was just too busy to make a getaway in time.
Katte boasting of Fritz' favor: also ties with the part in his letter to his father about having had ambitions etc. Not to say this is what it was about for him with Fritz, but I doubt he was immune to the fact that this was the future King when they first became friends.
This prospect is why I'm also not 100% sure she'd have done it. If she believed Fritz would otherwise die or commit suicide out of desperation over FW's treatment of him, then yes. But give up the brother who was her main source of affection, possibly forever, and face a future of becoming Dad's favourite punishment target, when there's still a chance that if Fritz holds out some years more, FW dies and Fritz becomes King? Not sure.
Yeah, that's also why I'm not sure, and why I am sure she was a very reluctant conspirator. (I think I've said this before: his willingness to leave and her reluctance to let him go, I think *must* have fed into some kind of repressed and even subconscious mutual resentment after the fact, no matter how much they understood the other's motives.)
But as for dying: she does record that scene where Fritz tells her FW was trying to strangle him with a cord and had to be pried off him by (invisible and very brave) servants). So maybe?
Re: why Katte remained in Berlin, Fontane is with you, as you might recall. He thinks Katte remained because of his knightly instincts and because he was just too busy to make a getaway in time.
I absolutely remember. :) He was a victim of his knightly disposition. Fontane also thinks Mitchell's "on account of some girl he was fond of" can't be right, because it hasn't occurred to Fontane that "some girl" might be Wilhelmine. ;)
Katte boasting of Fritz' favor: also ties with the part in his letter to his father about having had ambitions etc.
Yep, I always connect those two things too. And while those letters can't be trusted, I have always believed, like you, that he was in no way immune to Fritz being the Crown Prince. Plus that other letter (the Puncta one, written by Müller), where Katte says Fritz had promised him great things someday when he was king (and thus Katte's death shows the vanity of human plans, etc., etc.).
Now, that letter *really* can't be trusted, but given who Katte's father and grandfather were, I imagine he would expect some kind of preferment as a matter of course, and that's not mutually exclusive with him having real feelings for Fritz. (Which I'm sure he did: the fact that he was repeatedly asking to talk to Fritz at Küstrin and was reassuring him that he didn't blame him tells me that, motives for religion and pleasing Dad and going to a "good death" aside, he actually cared about Fritz's feelings after his death.)
Btw, now that I've seen the exchanges between Fritz and AW in the 1730s, I'm more willing to believe in the existence of that letter that Peter Keith is supposed to have carried with him for 10 years, saying that Fritz will always be grateful and stating or implying that there will be rewards someday.
This is all fascinating! I do think Wilhelmine must have been a reluctant conspirator, if she was a conspirator. And I can totally see how, if she was, that could easily have turned into her memoir-as-therapy saying "It was totally a bad idea, see??"
Now, that letter *really* can't be trusted, but given who Katte's father and grandfather were, I imagine he would expect some kind of preferment as a matter of course, and that's not mutually exclusive with him having real feelings for Fritz.
Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty common thing with humans. It's hard or impossible to turn off what you know of someone's external situation, but you can fall in love with someone at the same time as you are perfectly aware that person is the Crown Prince and will someday be King.
1) The library finally having hit the tipping point, I've now organized the files into a handful of folders. If anything isn't where it should be or you don't have access to it, let me know.
Fanworks are still at the top, but if we accumulate enough of them, they'll get a designated folder too. :)
2) his trashy tell all memoirs. Which, [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard, yes, I'd like to have in the library. I mean, sadly due to grandson censorship they're missing the vital years of 1730 to 1732, and thus can't tell us among other things how Uncle George first reacted when he heard what went down in Prussia with FW and Fritz, but maybe there are other useful quotes in them, and they do sound very entertaining.
Bowdlerized memoirs in the library, with obligatory 19th century editorial disclaimer that it was perfectly acceptable to be coarse then, so much so that he wishes he could have bowdlerized *more*, but the memoirs wouldn't make sense with entire passages suppressed, so he contented himself with some lacunae and rewriting. Sigh. Someone bring him his smelling salts.
If I find a more complete copy, I'll let you know, but for now, this is what we have. There appears to be a more modern (but still 1960s) edition, that's severely abridged down to less than 300 pages.
3) Lady Hervey's letters are also in the library, in the correspondence folder.
Also, any time you want anything, whether it be Lord Hervey's memoirs or an English or German translation of Voltaire on short notice, let me know, and I'll see what I can do! It's not like I hesitate to ask you to read things for us. ;)
4) And because I couldn't resist, also the memoirs of Princess Dashkova. We haven't talked about her, but she was Catherine's BFF, helped put her on the throne, headed the Russian academy of sciences, and seems generally cool. And in keeping with our Enlightenment theme!
1) As you've no doubt seen, I'm getting our fic endeavors transferred over to rheinsberg. A handful more ficlets/discussions/prompts to go, and a handful more emoji sets. I'll let you know when I'm done, and then you can point out anything I missed. Shorter prompts and discussions are especially hard to remember/find, so I'm sure there are plenty more out there I've forgotten that you can tell me about.
I haven't tagged for characters yet, because this is tedious enough already. I'm sure they'll get tagged someday, either by me, or...I think you can tag posts other people have made in the community, even if you can't edit them, so if anyone wanted to help out, I wouldn't say no. ;)
selenak: do you want me to do Rococo babysitting, Voltaire to the rescue, and handsome hussar, or hold off? I know you're seriously thinking about turning these into fics, so I'm waiting for your approval. Though Rococo babysitting, both in the original and in emoji, is worthy of being a work of art on its own. Like the VSD of Fredersdorf that got turned into fics, but that I still put up, because it's *awesome*.
The other two are mostly plot hashing out, so if you've got plans for these, maybe we don't need to post them separately? I'll let you decide.
2) The Google doc is being drafted already and will be shared shortly, this weekend if I don't have time to finish this week. Just in time for nominations!
do you want me to do Rococo babysitting, Voltaire to the rescue, and handsome hussar?
Go ahead. If I manage to turn any of them into a proper tale, it won't harm there being an outline at our community, and if someone else should feel inspired, I'll be as delighted as I was when the three of us managed to come up with the Christmas of '32 simultanously! And yes, group them thematically, i.e. the Rococo babysitting can go together in both versions, etc.. ;)
All ficlets, prompts, discussions, and emojis that I can remember off the top of my head are now in the library! If you think of one I missed, either add it, or let me know (with a link to the discussion if possible, otherwise, I'll do my best).
Finishing and sharing the Google doc with prompts is next on my todo list.
Added a couple more items to rheinsberg, and put the prompt organization list in the library in Google. You should be able to see and edit it, but if not, let me know.
A list of prompts we've come up with is at the top. Feel free to add whatever I've missed.
Below that are our individual lists of favorite prompts we'd be happy to receive as gifts, in alphabetical order by name: cahn, mildred, selena. As you can see, I've started with my top 50, but don't be surprised if I think of more. :P
The entries in the table of contents are clickable and linkable: you can navigate to yours, and you can link to it if you want to point someone else to it.
Add yours!
ETA: Oh, mine is in no particular order. I'd be happy to get any all of them.
* cahn, having finished Wives and as part of my quest to follow in the footsteps of the great selenak, I'm getting ready to run Oster's Wilhelmine bio through the translator. Are you going to be doing it with me?
If so, I can make the paragraphs shorter with maybe half an hour of not-especially-tedious work, and I'm happy to do it if it helps your German practice. If not, I'll just translate it as-is, and I won't bother uploading the interleaved file (though I will generate one just in case you want it someday--the algorithm already generates it, so no extra work, yay automation).
* With the help of some Google-fu, Lady Mary's complete letters can be acquired at the present time for $67, including shipping: $54 for volumes 1 and 2, sold as a set, and $13 for volume 3. For 3 thick volumes, that's not a bad deal.
We could cross-reference with Wilhelmine's Italy travels and figure out when and where they could have met, and what they were up to around that time!
I'm up for contributing $40 and doing the scanning and uploading, if either of you are in a position to contribute the remaining $27, either individually or in combination. Otherwise, we can wait for selenak to see if she can get library copies when she's back in Munich next month.
Sure, I'll read it with you! I think with the caveat that I'm not necessarily going to be up for writing detailed comments (I WILL finish commenting on Wives, though) but I think I can commit to keeping up with your reading in English and responding to your comments :)
Interleaved would be great because I think it really does help even when I just look at it sporadically, although I am temporarily abandoning attempts to even quasi-seriously try to read anything right now and just doubling down on Duolingo, as I'm realizing I need a baseline syntax and vocab that I don't have yet. (I am, however, reading Le Petit Prince very slowly in French, but that's another story.)
I can contribute the remaining $27, though I will reserve the right to ask for a translation favor in return :) (I don't have one right now, but I'm sure I will at some point :P )
Yay! Tbh, I might not be up for detailed comments either, especially as my reading speeds up and Yuletide starts to happen.
Would shorter paragraphs help? I won't count that as your translation favor, or only a small percentage of it. ;)
I can contribute the remaining $27, though I will reserve the right to ask for a translation favor in return :) (I don't have one right now, but I'm sure I will at some point :P )
Also yay! Translation favors for books is the best barter system. :D ETA: Plus of course the reading and summarizing of said books!
just doubling down on Duolingo, as I'm realizing I need a baseline syntax and vocab that I don't have yet.
This all sounds great and makes perfect sense. I'm happy that you're studying German!
Random insertion of paragraph breaks has concluded; tomorrow, I'll run the file through the translator and upload the results to the library.
Tomorrow I'm also going to finish the last few pages of volume 1 of Wilhelmine's memoirs: go me! I'm 10 pages from the end and going to try to do a few more before bed.
(I am, however, reading Le Petit Prince very slowly in French, but that's another story.)
Zomg. I'm going to have to work hard to catch up when the time comes!
Go you indeed! Since you're already familiar with the English translation of Wilhelmine's memoirs, I'm curious: does the tone strike you as different due to the language, or the same?
This is where I admit my German is still at the stage where a lot of this happens:
A word: *is German* Me: I know that's a compliment. Which compliment, I forget, but that's good enough. Moving on!
That kind of plowing ahead when it's "good enough" is why my German is progressing so quickly: I trust that my future self will know the things my present self doesn't, and so far that's working out as planned. But it does mean things like tone are a little harder to pick up on at this stage.
Also, the tone of the English translation is partly masked by the translator's choice to render it in English that is not only a hundred years old now, but was an artificially lofty, learned style even then: the English of a great many Classical translations that were trying to be as stilted as possible (some much worse than the Wilhelmine edition I'm using) and that the modern-day Classics student gets stuck with, because they're public domain and easily accessible.
"Contributed to render me acquainted with the usages of society" is not how anyone talks now, not even my dissertation advisor, who has the most Latinate English of anyone I've ever known, and if you read other stuff from a hundred years ago, you can tell the man on the street wasn't talking like that back then, either. You had to learn to write like that.
So unfortunately I have to make a conscious effort to see past it and perceive a tone other than "sounds really stilted to the modern ear."
I can tell you the sarcasm comes through in both translations! Yesterday I got to the Wusterhausen part, and it was full of complimentary words, immediately after a description of just how terrible it was. "Such was the delightful place we were staying at. This is what the glamorous front hall looked like." That sort of thing. :D
Zomg. I'm going to have to work hard to catch up when the time comes!
This totally made me laugh, because reading Le Petit Prince is actually a reaction to knowing I'm going to have to work to catch up with you when you start French :P I figure if I read one page a day, that in fifty days... I'll be approximating what you do in one day :PP
(My French is solid enough, and Prince has simple enough grammar and vocabulary, that even when I was in school I would have been able to read it -- I think it is pretty standard reading curriculum for high school French, and I would have read it in high school had I not moved schools at that point. It's a step down from e.g. Voigt, although I should possibly get a Voigt in French to compare.)
I figure if I read one page a day, that in fifty days... I'll be approximating what you do in one day :PP
Heee. Well, I do have a lot of *time* on my hands, and I'm more committed to making this happen now, it's true. :)
I just know there's a good chance I'll never be this motivated to study French or German again, and if I get my reading skills to a reasonable place now, then I can hopefully *maintain* them such that I can use them for other things. Like especially in Classics, there's a bunch of stuff I want to read in German, but not badly enough to study German for. But with reading group, and gossip, and so forth, now's the time!
I think it is pretty standard reading curriculum for high school French
So I gather, but as you know, I went to an unacademic high school, and after I took all the French that was offered, we still weren't reading anything. We were still just doing textbook exercises consisting of individual sentences, Duolingo-style.
We did The Little Prince in eleventh-grade *English*. Not that we weren't also doing more complicated English prose, but we certainly were not in a position to read that in French. To the extent that I can make heads or tails of French for Frederician purposes, it's because I'm generally good at languages and picked some things up here and there since then, not because my high school French got me up to being able to read entire paragraphs. (Because why send your intellectually talented, ambitious, and frustrated daughter to decent schools, when you could tell her the quality of her education doesn't matter and send her to some of the lowest-ranked ones in two of the lowest-ranked states for education in the US. Though at least no one beat me for studying Latin! Poor Fritz.)
But now I have a method! And I have plans! But before then, I have a long reading list for German. Plus hopefully Yuletide. So you should have more than 50 days to practice. :)
Actually, what with Yuletide, I might actually not start French until next year. We'll see. I did tell Royal Patron we're not starting Greek as soon as I'd originally projected, what with me getting serious about German, then RMSE happening, possibly Yuletide, and hopefully French, lol.
We did The Little Prince in eleventh-grade *English*. Not that we weren't also doing more complicated English prose, but we certainly were not in a position to read that in French.
*blinks* Well, I'm glad you appended that note about doing more complicated English prose, because... what?? But still.
We were still just doing textbook exercises consisting of individual sentences, Duolingo-style.
Yeah, that's not right. My first high school had surprisingly good French, which meant that the second year when we walked in the teacher started talking to us in French and expecting us to respond in same, which we were all very upset by :) (But it turns out that this kind of on-the-fly practice is a really great way to force language learning!) My second high school had great everything except my history teacher, who was terrible (although there is evidence she used to be less bad and was going through some personal problems that year), and the French teacher wasn't nearly as good as my old one. We didn't read books in my third-year class (which first!French teacher would have made us do) but we did read paragraphs!
Now, what your class reminds me of is my Spanish class (at first high school). I don't think I have mentioned before that I took a year of Spanish, which is because I learned and retain next to zero from that class. My parents really wanted me to take Spanish, as it's such a useful language to know in the US, and as an adult living in SoCal I don't disagree with their assessment -- it would certainly be a practical language to know. (Though French was definitely the right choice in terms of life happiness -- useful in a wide range of literary, historical, and musical contexts! :D )
We spent every class, every day, doing the exercises from the book (which are much more repetitive than Duolingo) -- you know, I have this vague memory that we didn't even do them ourselves; I think the teacher told us the answer and we wrote it down -- and then we would be tested on exactly those exercises. This meant that it was much easier to memorize the exercises that one would be tested on than it was to actually learn the language. So I'd dutifully memorize the exercises, and then promptly forget them, and so I know no Spanish. (Well, I mean, living in SoCal, and having done French and Italian, I know enough to pick out words and such, but I can't understand or read as much as I could after even a semester of, say, Italian.)
My cunning plan to get us the complete set of the Lady Mary correspondence has failed: I got a refund instead of a replacement from the bookseller. Since it was a used book, my guess is that the seller entered the wrong volume number when typing up the details for this book, and they don't actually have a copy of volume 3 to send me.
So, we have volumes 1-2 (not yet digitized), which cover the period up to 1751. Which is nice and all, but doesn't cover the period of Wilhelmine's visit!
I will keep my eye out for v. 3, but right now, the cheapest I can find it is $55, which, no.
Oh, cahn, since I got a refund, I will divide it proportionately with you, which means you have $5 in future book bribe credits, and $15 in future translation favors. ;)
[ETA: I'm an idiot. You gave me $27, which means you have $22 in translation favors after subtracting the $5 refund.]
Also, I can't believe I'd forgotten this, but I did actually work as a librarian's assistant in my high school library (for course credit, not for money). I helped with shelving, cataloguing (you won't be surprised I helped us go digital with our card catalogue back in 2000), and acquisition (you won't be surprised this was my favorite part :P). I wouldn't do it for a career as long as I had better options, but it's definitely up my alley as a hobby!
This all sounds good to me too! (And yes, being editable by all three of us was why I thought a document would be a good choice for the prompts, which may change rapidly :D )
I'm happy for you to put snippets in Rheinsberg -- and yes, separate posts with tag sounds like a good idea :)
Having browsed through the first (bowlderized) volume of Hervey's memoirs: the man can coin a phrase, and is viciously hilarious. Alas for our purposes, he thinks G2's insistence of seeing himself as a German prince and being involved in German and continental politics is a waste of time at best and a danger to England at worst, involving the Brits in continental battles and always on the wrong side. (The Imperial one.) Hervey dies in the early 1740s, remember, so for him German = mostly the creaky old HRE and its politics. He hasn't got much time or attention for FW and Prussia, and of course the years 1730 - 32 are missing. But there is a bit on the G2 & FW relationship, and what there is is hilarious. (It also tells us that if Fritz had ever made it to England, he would have had the weirdest sense of deja vu...)
So, the FW passages:
To oppose the execution then of the Vienna Treaty made between the Emperor and Spain, France and England formed the Hanover Treaty, September 3, 1727, when the late King (i.e. G1) was at Hanover. As soon as this treaty was concluded, to which England, France, and Prussia were the original contracting parties, copies of it were sent to all the Courts and little States in Europe ; and whilst the Emperor and Spain were soliciting, on one hand, for accessions to their Treaty of Vienna, England and France were, on the other, strengthening, by as many powers as they could list, the alliance of Hanover. The defection of the King of Prussia from the latter was a sudden turn, and proceeded partly from a fear of his superior, the Emperor, and partly from a sullen, envious hatred he bore to his father-in-law, the King of England, who, from the time of his advancement to that crown, sank in his son-in-law's favour, just in the same proportion as he rose above him in grandeur. This was a great loss to the allies of Hanover, the King of Prussia having a standing force of 70,000 men. The forces of Spain were about 60,000, besides their naval power ; and the army of the Emperor in all, after the new levies, about 200,000. Muscovy was the only considerable power, besides Prussia, that acceded to the Treaty of Vienna ; for whilst the Czarina alone obliged herself, in case of a rupture, to furnish 30,000 men, the Electors of Bavaria, Cologne, and Treves, besides several other little German Princes that his Imperial Majesty had bullied, cajoled, or bought into his party, could muster no more than 27,000.
While Prince of Wales, future G2 had remained in Britain, but once he was G2, he irritated his English subjects by spending part of his time in Hannover, like his father had done: Whilst the King was at Hanover he had several little German disputes with his brother of Prussia, the particulars of which being about a few cart-loads of hay, a mill, and some soldiers improperly enlisted by the King of Prussia in the Hanoverian state, I do not think them worthy of being considered in detail ; and shall say nothing further about these squabbles than that, first or last, both of them contrived to be in the wrong. And as these two princes had some similar impracticabilities in their temper, so they were too much alike ever to agree, and from this time forward hated one another with equal imprudence, inveteracy, and openness. It was reported, and I believe not without foundation, that our Monarch on this occasion sent or would have sent a challenge of single combat to his Prussian Majesty; but whether it was carried and rejected, or whether the prayers and remonstrances of Lord Townshend prevented the gauntlet being actually thrown down, is a point which to me at least has never been cleared. There was another subject of dispute between the Kings of England and Prussia, which I forgot to enumerate, though it was the only one really of consequence, and that was with regard to the affairs of Mecklenburg. The short statement of their differences on this article was, whether the Prussian or Hanoverian troops (both ordered into Mecklenburg by a decree of the Aulic Council) should have the greatest share (under the pretence of keeping peace) in plundering the people and completing the ruin of that miserable duchy, already reduced to such a state of calamity by the tyrannical conduct of their most abominable, deposed, or rather suspended duke.
It's time for (another) War of the Polish Succession. As a reminder: France backs Louis XV's father-in-law, Stanilaus Lescyinski; Mt's Dad the Emperor backs August the Strong's son, future August III. FW is technically obliged to back both in his dual capacity of Elector of Brandenburg and King of Prussia. Then there's the battle of Philippsburg where no one does much but where Fritz, FW and old Prince Eugene are on one side and the Duc de Richelieu (and Voltaire as a tourist) on the other. G2 wants to join the war effort. His PM, Robert Walpole, and Hervey really really want Britain to stay out of hit. During these transactions abroad, the King was in the utmost anxiety at home. The battles of Bitonto and Parma, the surrender of Philipsburg, and the bad situation of the Emperor's affairs in every quarter, gave his Majesty the utmost solicitude to exert himself in the defence of the House of Austria, and to put some stop to the rapid triumphs of the House of Bourbon. For though the King was ready to allow all the personal faults of the Emperor, and was not without resentment for the treatment he himself had met with from the Court of Vienna, yet his hatred to the French was so strong, and his leaning to an Imperial cause so prevalent, that he could not help wishing to distress the one and support the other, in spite of all inferior, collateral, or personal considerations. In all occurrences he could not help remembering that, as Elector of Hanover, he was a part of the Empire, and the Emperor at the head of it ; and these prejudices, operating in every consideration where his interest as King of England ought only to have been weighed, gave his Minister, who consulted only the interest of England, perpetual difficulties to surmount, whenever he was persuading his Majesty to adhere solely to that. The King's love for armies, his contempt for civil affairs, and the great capacity he thought he possessed for military exploits, inclined him still with greater violence to be meddling, and warped him yet more to the side of war. He used almost daily and hourly, during the beginning of this summer, to be telling Sir Robert Walpole with what eagerness he glowed to pull the laurels from the brows of the French generals, to bind his own temples ; that it was with the sword alone he desired to keep the balance of Europe •, that war and action were his sole pleasures ; that age was coming fast upon him ; and that, if he lost the opportunity of this bustle, no other occasion possibly might offer in which he should be able to distinguish himself, or gather those glories which were now ready at his hand. He could not bear, he said, the thought of growing old in peace, and rusting in the cabinet, whilst other princes were busied in war and shining in the field; but what provoked him most of all, he confessed, was to reflect that, whilst he was only busied in treaties, letters, and despatches, his booby brother, the brutal and cowardly King of Prussia, should pass his time in camps, and in the midst of arms, neither desirous of the glory nor fit for the employment ; whilst he, who coveted the one and was trained for the other, was, for cold prudential reasons, debarred the pleasure of indulging his inclination, and deprived of the advantage of showing his abilities.
See what I mean about deja vu?
But the circumstance that gave Sir Robert Walpole the most trouble of all was that with regard to the war he found the Queen as unmanageable and opinionated as the King. There are local prejudices in all people's composition, imbibed from the place of their birth, the seat of their education, and the residence of their youth, that are hardly ever quite eradicated, and operate much stronger than those who are influenced by them are apt to imagine ; and the Queen, with all her good sense, was actuated by these prejudices in a degree nothing short of that in which they biased the King. Wherever the interest of Germany and the honour of the Empire were concerned, her thoughts and reasonings were often as German and Imperial as if England had been out of the question ; and there were few inconveniences and dangers to which she would not have exposed this country rather than give occasion to its being said that the Empire suffered affronts unretorted, and the House of Austria injuries unrevenged, whilst she, a German by birth, sat upon this throne an idle spectatress, able to assist and not willing to interpose.
More about Queen Caroline elsewhere. But Hervey's general attitude with its "why are they so German?" ness was widely shared among the British politicians and makes me think Heinrich wasn't wrong when in his RPG with AW when assuming Britain would not have been willing to go to total war for Hannover. Speaking of the family seat, G2 making another trip there is the occason of the last Prussia mention in volume 1, as his PM tries to argue him into not going. It's the mid 1730s:
Neither would it have been a very agreeable incident for the King of Great Britain, after a month's residence at Hanover, to be running back again through Westphalia to England with seventy thousand Prussians at his heels ; and yet, considering the terms he and the King of Prussia were upon at present, this might easily have happened, and was suggested by Sir Robert Walpole to deter his Majesty from this expedition ; but to their remonstrances his Majesty always answered, "Pooh!" and "Stuff!" or, " You think to get the better of me, but you shall not ;" and, in short, plainly showed that all efforts to divert him from this expedition would be fruitless.
You know what's nearly totally missing (unless it was in the censored by grandson passages)? The endless marriage negotiatioins for Fritz and Wilhelmine. There's one single aside about some there being some idea to marry Fritz of Wales to "a daughter of Prussia", and that's it. Otherwise, the entire rigmorale is of zero interest to Hervey.
ahahaha, this guy does sound very amusing and also someone I would not want to have as an ex be on the bad side of! Also, lol for those interminable marriage negotiations being limited to a single small bit :)
but what provoked him most of all, he confessed, was to reflect that, whilst he was only busied in treaties, letters, and despatches, his booby brother, the brutal and cowardly King of Prussia, should pass his time in camps, and in the midst of arms, neither desirous of the glory nor fit for the employment
LOLOL that's SO GREAT. Unforgiveablest of beings indeed!
I needed that for my probably never going to be written AU where Fritz makes it to England. I already had him sighing about having to take up hunting as a political concession; now I'm imagining listening to lectures from G2 on how the sword is the only way for a prince to win glory.
makes me think Heinrich wasn't wrong when in his RPG with AW when assuming Britain would not have been willing to go to total war for Hannover
Yep, makes sense.
It was reported, and I believe not without foundation, that our Monarch on this occasion sent or would have sent a challenge of single combat to his Prussian Majesty;
What. G2, didn't you already lose the single combat with FW when you were twice his size? I don't care how gouty he is, I'd watch out. He's in practice, if nothing else!
but whether it was carried and rejected, or whether the prayers and remonstrances of Lord Townshend prevented the gauntlet being actually thrown down, is a point which to me at least has never been cleared.
Um. selenak, FW would have taken him up on the challenge, are you with me on this? Even if he got talked out of it, I suspect Wilhelmine would have heard about it and reported the conversation.
FW to SD: I already kicked your brother's sorry ass once; now he wants a piece of me again? Bring it on!
So I'm going to go with "calmer heads prevailed in England."
he irritated his English subjects by spending part of his time in Hannover, like his father had done:
I just today got to the part in Wilhelmine's memoirs where she claims that the following happened.
The English want Fritz of Wales in England, not Hanover. (The story checks out so far.) G2 wants him in Hanover, because a party will form around him in England if he's there. So they decide that FoW should sneak off to Berlin, marry Wilhelmine, and then G2 will have an excuse Parliament can't argue with for keeping him on the Continent. Only SD gives the game away by being indiscreet, the English ministers find out, and the plot falls through.
I gather Hervey's memoirs don't support this, since he doesn't get into the fire swamp that is the double marriage intrigues, but I'm wondering if there's any evidence for this outside Wilhelmine's memoirs.
Fritz and G2 can bond over fox-hunting, though. I found the original passage in Hervey's memoirs where he tells that story (of G2 going "Fox hunting WTF, English people?), and it's as great as Horowitz' paraphrase. Will quote at length when I find the time.
FW would have taken him up on the challenge, are you with me on this?
You have my sword. He so would have, even if he'd been in one of his wheelchair-bound phases. What choice of weapons, though? Or are they going to do a wrestling and boxing combination again?
I'm also with you in that G2 better watch out. FW has that killer instinct. Now the next question is: whom would SD and Caroline be rooting for, in their heart of hearts? Wait, scratch that. Even if Caroline is exhausted by all the G2 wrangling she has to do, she gets her power from him, and if he dies or is incapacitated, her least favourite kid gets on the throne. Meanwhile, if FW gets killed or incapacitated, Fritz becomes King.
Otoh: if there's a non lethal ending with both parties alive and well, just one of them terribly embarassed and humiliated, then SD is rooting for FW all the way, and Caroline for G2. They have to live with them if they lose, after all.
The "Fritz of Wales sneaks of to Berlin" plan sounds vaguely familiar, and not just from Wilhelmine's memoirs. Halsband might have mentioned it. Not sure, though.
WELP. Something was demanding to be moved to the Rheinsberg fanfic prompts tag. :D
With you on SD and Caroline.
What choice of weapons, though? Or are they going to do a wrestling and boxing combination again?
Given what happened when Hervey fought a duel and *didn't* use pistols, and given the shade G2 is throwing at FW's courage, probably pistols?
But for maximum crackfic hilarity, wrestling and boxing combination, totally.
Fritz and G2 can bond over fox-hunting, though.
True, although I recall from your first write-up that G2 was on board with hunting game that gives you some kind of challenge? And it was primarily Amelia I was thinking of: riding and hunting were her big passions, and Fritz needs to stay on her good side at least a little during the big England/Hannover (Ha! See, I'm using the German spelling already :P) conflict with Prussia, so he grits his teeth and hunts a little. 1733-1740 shows us what Fritz is capable of when he stands to get something out of it.
I found the original passage in Hervey's memoirs where he tells that story (of G2 going "Fox hunting WTF, English people?), and it's as great as Horowitz' paraphrase. Will quote at length when I find the time.
Found it!
When the Duke of Grafton notified his design to go into the country, the King told him it was a pretty occupation for a man of quality, and at his age, to be spending all his time in tormenting a poor fox, that was generally a much better beast than any of those that pursued him; for the fox hurts no other animal but for his subsistence, whilst those brutes who hurt him did it only for the pleasure they took in hurting. The Duke of Grafton said he did it for his health. The King asked him why he could not as well walk or ride post for his health ; and said, if there was any pleasure in the chase, he was sure the Duke of Grafton could know nothing of it; "for," added his Majesty, "with your great corps of twenty stone weight, no horse, I am sure, can carry you within hearing, much less within sight, of your hounds." This last dialogue I was present at.
If you're wondering: I know the English spell it "Hanover" with one n, but the town in Germany as well as the current noble family is spelled with two n over here, hence my usually spelling it with two. So, you may have gathered Hervey isn't much impressed, though he doesn't limit his not impressedness to the House of Hannover. Not knowing den einzigen König, he thinks the lot of them are rubbish:
For my own part, I have the conduct of princes in so little veneration, that I believe they act yet oftener without design than other people, and are insensibly drawn into both good and bad situations without knowing how they came there. (...) I think most of these political contenders for profit and power are, like Catiline and Caesar, actuated by the same principles of ambition and interest, and that as their success determines their characters, so accident determines their success. Had Csesar fallen in the plains of Pharsalia, like Catiline in those of Pistoia, they had both been remembered in the same manner; the different fortune of those battles is what alone constitutes the different characters of these two men, and makes the one always mentioned as the first and the other as the last of mankind.
Hervey on the coronation of G2 and Queen Caroline:
In October the ceremony of the Coronation was performed with all the pomp and magnificence that could be contrived ; the present King differing so much from the last, that all the pageantry and splendour, badges and trappings of royalty, were as pleasing to the son as they were irksome to the father. The dress of the Queen on this occasion was as fine as the accumulated riches of the City and suburbs could make it ; for besides her own jewels (which were a great number and very valuable) she had on her head and on her shoulders all the pearls she could borrow of the ladies of quality at one end of the town, and on her petticoat all the diamonds she could hire of the Jews and jewellers at the other; so that the appearance and the truth of her finery was a mixture of magnificence and meanness not unlike the eclat of royalty in many other particulars when it comes to be nicely examined and its sources traced to what money hires or flattery lends.
You may gather from this that contrary to what Halsband told me in his biography, Hervey writes critical stuff about Queen Caroline as well as about the rest of the family. This upsets Croker in the introduction, not least because Hervey also insists he loved the Queen and she loved him. Though our Victorian editor is most upset about what Hervey presumably didn't mean critically at all, to wit, Caroline a) despising her oldest son, and b) having no problem with her husband's mistresses. Speaking of whom, remember Lady Suffolk, who started out as Mrs. Howard and whom G2 took as an English mistress when he was still Prince of Wales when his Dad G1 upset people by bring a German mistress along? Whom G2 visited strictly by the hour and was more dutiful than affectionate towards as opposed to his wife? This is how Hervey introduces her:
She was civil to everybody, friendly to many, and unjust to none : in short, she had a good head and a good heart, but had to do with a man who was incapable of tasting the one or valuing the other.
Meanwhile, Queen Caroline: Her predominant passion was pride, and the darling pleasure of her soul was power; but she was forced to gratify the one and gain the other, as some people do health, by a strict and painful regime, which few besides herself could have had patience to support, or resolution to adhere to. She was at least seven or eight hours tute-a-tcte with the King every day, during which time she was generally saying what she did not think, assenting to what she did not believe, and praising what she did not approve ; for they were seldom of the same opinion, and he too fond of his own for her ever at first to dare to controvert it (" consilii quamvis egregii quod ipse non afferret, inimicus :"— " An enemy to any counsel, however excellent, which he himself had not suggested." — Tacitus) ;'' she used to give him her opinion as jugglers do a card, by changing it imperceptibly, and making him believe he held the same with that he first pitched upon. But that which made these tete-a-tetes seem heaviest was that he neither liked reading nor being read to (unless it was to sleep) : she was forced, like a spider, to spin out of her own bowels all the conversation with which the fly was taken. However, to all this she submitted for the sake of power, and for the reputation of having it ; for the vanity of being thought to possess what she desired was equal to the pleasure of the possession itself. But, either for the appearance or the reality, she knew it was absolutely necessary to have interest in her husband, as she was sensible that interest was the measure by which people would always judge of her power. Her every thought, word, and act therefore tended and was calculated to preserve her influence there ; to him she sacrificed her time, for him she mortified her inclination ; she looked, spake, and breathed but for him, like a weathercock to every capricious blast of his uncertain temper, and governed him (if such influence so gained can bear the name of government) by being as great a slave to him thus ruled, as any other wife could be to a man who ruled her. For all the tedious hours she spent then in watching him whilst he slept, or the heavier task of entertaining him whilst he was awake, her single consolation was in reflecting she had power, and that people in coffeehouses and ruelles were saying she governed this country, without knowing how dear the government of it cost her.
This was not how G2 saw it, of course: The King himself was so little sensible of this being his case, that one day enumerating the people who had governed this country in other reigns, he said Charles I. was governed by his wife ; Charles II. by his mistresses ; King James by his priests ; King William by his men—and Queen Anne by her women—favourites. His father, he added, had been by anybody that could get at him. And at the end of this compendious history of our great and wise monarchs, with a significant, satisfied, triumphant air, he turned about, smiling, to one of his auditors, and asked him—"And who do they say governs now?" Whether this is a true or a false story of the King, I know not, but it was currently reported and generally believed. The following verses will serve for a specimen of the strain in which the libels, satires, and lampoons of these days were omposed : — " You may strut, dapper George, but 't will all be in vain ; We know 'tis Queen Caroline, not you, that reign— You govern no more than Don Philip of Spain. Then if you would have us fall down and adore you, Lock up your fat spouse, as your dad did before you." '
And as for that love rat, Fritz of Wales:
The Prince's character at his first coming over, though little more respectable, seemed much more amiable than, upon his opening himself further and being better known, it turned out to be ; for though there appeared nothing in him to be admired, yet there seemed nothing in him to be hated—neither anything great nor anything vicious ; his behaviour was something that gained one's good wishes, though it gave one no esteem for him ; for his best qualities, whilst they prepossessed one the most in his favour, always gave one a degree of contempt for him at the same time ; his carriage, whilst it seemed engaging to those who did not examine it, appearing mean to those who did : for though his manners had the show of benevolence from a good deal of natural or habitual civility, yet his cajoling everybody, and almost in an equal degree, made those things which might have been thought favours, if more judiciously or sparingly bestowed, lose all their weight. He carried this affectation of general benevolence so far that he often condescended below the character of a Prince; and as people attributed this familiarity to popular, and not particular motives, so it only lessened their respect without increasing their good will, and instead of giving them good impressions of his humanity, only gave them ill ones of his sincerity. He was indeed as false as his capacity would allow him to be, and was more capable in that walk than in any other, never having the least hesitation, from principle or fear of future detection, in telling any lie that served his present purpose. He had a much weaker understanding, and, if possible, a more obstinate temper, than his father ; that is, more tenacious of opinions he had once formed, though less capable of ever forming right ones. Had he had one grain of merit at the bottom of his heart, one should have had compassion for him in the situation to which his miserable poor head soon reduced him ; for his case, in short, was this :—he had a father that abhorred him, a mother that despised him, sisters that betrayed him, a brother set up against him, and a set of servants that neglected him, and were neither of use, nor capable of being of use to him, nor desirous of being so.
There, there, Hervey. Celebrity break-ups are the worst, we know. Have a glass with Voltaire.
Heh, that sounds downright nice about Caroline, especially given the other stuff he's said about other women :PP Well, no, actually, a lot of it is nice! I feel like he's the kind of guy who can't resist getting in some digs when there's a good witticism to be had, mind you. (Wow, he really is kind of like Voltaire. Would they like each other or would this be an epic insult battle for the ages? ...what am I even saying? I know what Fritz/Voltaire was like, of course it'd be the latter! with two sets of fake memoirs)
At least from Hervey's description, Caroline sounds a lot more savvy than SD. Of course, G2 isn't exactly FW, either.
And as for that love rat, Fritz of Wales:
I must say I love the soubriquet "love rat" and will have to find more opportunities to use it :D But anyway, lol forever to that description! Is there a bit anywhere later on describing their soulful, tempestuous, star-crossed reunion? :D
(Wow, he really is kind of like Voltaire. Would they like each other or would this be an epic insult battle for the ages? ...what am I even saying? I know what Fritz/Voltaire was like, of course it'd be the latter! with two sets of fake memoirs)
Well, apparently it was like Fritz/Voltaire in some ways, not in others:
En route back from Italy, Hervey renews his friendship with Voltaire (whom he'd met earlier when Voltaire had been in England); this includes showing Voltaire his poetry and asking his opinion of it. (I sense a theme.)
Hervey's friendship for Voltaire the man did not prevent him from criticizing Voltaire the writer. When he read the tragedy Zaire (early in 1733) and sent a copy to Henry Fox , he was certain that like himself Fox would "have some Compassion for a silly Christian [heroine) as well as the greatest regard, Esteem , & Affection for a noble, good, tender & charming Mahometan' who through a tragic misunderstanding kills her. He was irritated , though, by Voltaire's dedication of the play to Edward Falkener, English merchant. In France it was regarded as scandalous because it was addressed not only to a commoner but to a foreign one at that . Hervey told Henry Fox that he thought it "bad, false, & impertinent ... by a superficial Frenchman to an Englishman , & the Dedicator pretends to be better acquainted with our Country, our Manners, our Laws, & even our Language than the Dedicatee'.
What could have aroused such a violent opinion ? In the dedicatory epistle , after praising the high rank and regard the mercantile class enjoyed in England, Voltaire continues : 'I know very well that this profession is despised by our petits-maîtres ; but you also know that our petits -maîtres and yours are the most ridiculous species that proudly crawl on the face of the earth '. This , rather than the general remarks about French and English theatre, could have been offensive to one who was certainly closer to being a petit-maître than a man of commerce.
Fritz: You've got it backwards, Hervey. Voltaire is the literal worst, the scum of humanity, but his writing! *sparkly hearts*
I also really enjoyed "love rat," that was awesome. Had never heard it, but Google tells me it's a thing.
Oh RIGHT, I can't believe I forgot that, it wasn't like it was that long ago *facepalm* Um, it's been kind of a long week? :) Because I remember it now, that was hilarious :D LOLOLOLOL Voltaire (again), always going after... everybody :D
Although I have to say that now having read more of selenak's synopses on Hervey, it's even funnier that Hervey wants to know Voltaire's opinion on his poetry :D
If you're wondering: I know the English spell it "Hanover" with one n, but the town in Germany as well as the current noble family is spelled with two n over here, hence my usually spelling it with two.
Oh, I'm used to your German spellings. So used to them that I've involuntarily started adopting some of them, like Rokoko! If I haven't started using "Hannover" too yet, I will soon enough, between you and Wilhelmine's memoirs. ;)
gain the other, as some people do health, by a strict and painful regime, which few besides herself could have had patience to support, or resolution to adhere to. She was at least seven or eight hours tute-a-tcte with the King every day, during which time she was generally saying what she did not think, assenting to what she did not believe, and praising what she did not approve ; for they were seldom of the same opinion, and he too fond of his own for her ever at first to dare to controvert it (" consilii quamvis egregii quod ipse non afferret, inimicus :"— " An enemy to any counsel, however excellent, which he himself had not suggested." — Tacitus) ;'' she used to give him her opinion as jugglers do a card, by changing it imperceptibly, and making him believe he held the same with that he first pitched upon.
Wow, this is a great description. I can see why his memoirs are considered so readable.
There, there, Hervey. Celebrity break-ups are the worst, we know. Have a glass with Voltaire.
Haha.
Thank you for the write-up! I'm a little short on time and brain for comments, but I appreciated it as always. I'm constantly amazed at the free education in this salon!
This is especially for cahn. The Princess Royal is the oldest daughter, Anne, married to William of Orange (not that one, another one). Like the rest of the family, see above, an enemy of her brother Fritz of Wales after he showed up as an adult:
Another judicious subject of his enmity was her supporting Handel, a German musician and composer (who had been her singing master, and was now undertaker of one of the operas), against several of the nobility who had a pique with Handel, and had set up another person to ruin him ; or, to speak more properly and exactly, the Prince, in the beginning of his enmity to his sister, set himself at the head of the other opera to irritate her, whose pride and passions were as strong as her brother's (although his understanding was so much weaker), and could brook contradiction, where she dared to resent it, as little as her father. What I have related may seem a trifle ; but though the cause was indeed such, the effects of it were no trifles. The King and Queen were as much in earnest upon this subject as their son and daughter, though they had the prudence to disguise it, or to endeavour to disguise it, a little more. They were both Handelists, and sat freezing constantly at his empty Haymarket Opera, whilst the Prince with all the chief of the nobility went as constantly to that of Lincoln's Inn Fields. The affair grew as serious as that of the Greens and the Blues under Justinian at Constantinople; an anti-Handelist was looked upon as an anticourtier ; and voting against the Court in Parliament was hardly a less remissible or more venial sin than speaking against Handel or going to the Lincoln's Inn Fields Opera. The Princess Royal said she expected in a little while to see half the House of Lords playing in the orchestra in their robes and coronets ; and the King—though he declared he took no other part in this affair than subscribing lOOO pound. a-year to Handel—often added at the same time that " he did not think setting oneself at the head of a faction of fiddlers a very honourable occupation for people of quality ; or the ruin of one poor fellow [Handel] so generous or so good-natured a scheme as to do much honour to the undertakers, whether they succeeded or not ; but the better they succeeded in it, the more he thought they would have reason to be ashamed of it." The Princess Royal quarrelled with the Lord Chamberlain for affecting his usual neutrality on this occasion, and spoke of Lord Delaware, who was one of the chief managers against Handel, with as much spleen as if he had been at the head of the Dutch faction who opposed the making her husband Stadtholder.'
Wow, this is amazing. Actual soap opera about opera! :D (Or at least, so Hervey says. Do you know if this is backed up by any other sources? When it's Hervey, I feel like I gotta ask.)
I like Handel a lot (though not enough to get in battles over him, lol) so I am a little more on the Princess' side, I suppose, but. Man, Hervey definitely has a way with words, anyway.
There was indeed a mighty opera war going, and Fritz of Wales was supporting the other side (which had hired Farinelli - if you've ever seen the movie Farinelli, they include something of that competition during his guest starring in London) but what Hervey doesn't mention is that Fritz of Wales was a passionate violincellist and that his father disapproved, which had been the first of many musical family differences long before it was Handel vs Nobility Opera (where Fritz of Wales also sometimes played far away from his disapproving family.
Of course Hervey doesn't mention that, that might have shown Fritz of Wales in a better light and we can't have that *facepalm*
But it sounds like his father liked music (that is to say, it wasn't a FW-like disapproval of high-falutin' music in general)? Then was it just the cello he didn't like? Stringed instruments?
A sleepless night (no reason: the hotel is lovely) makes for more Hervey, volume 2. To explain some of tihe following passages I have to point out Hervey, whenever he shows up in his own tale as an acting character, writes of himself in the third person, i.e. "Lord Hervey did this" or "then Lord Hervey said to the Queen", etc. A la Caesar in the Gallic Wars. Confusingly, though, he also writes in the first person - i.e. "I heard this from Sir Robert directly" or "I was present when the King said this" etc. I'm not sure whether he wanted his readers to believe a third party - an unnamed historian - was writing these memoirs; after all, he knew they wouldn't and couldn't be published within his own life time, and probably not for some time hereafter. Or maybe it was just a stylistic device, understood by readers of the time; I'm not sure, since none of the other 18th Century memoirs I've read so far employ it. (Certainly not Voltaire's. *g*)
Okay, onwards: G2 keeps irritating his English subjects with visiting Hannover, remember. On one such visit, his English mistress, Lady Sussex, gets married again despite being in her 40s. G2 hears about it from Caroline via letter, drags out his time in Hannover, and comes back with a German (!) mistress, Madame Waldmoden, the ultimate insult. This causes Lord Hervey to muse thusly:
Whilst the late King lived, everybody imagined this Prince loved England and hated Germany ; but from the time of his first journey, after he was King, to Hanover, people began to find, if they had not been deceived in their former opinion, at least they would be so in their xpectations; and that his thoughts, whatever they might have been, were no longer turned either with contempt or dislike to his Electoral dominions. But after this last journey Hanover had so completed the conquest of his affections, that there was nothing English ever commended in his presence that he did not always show, or pretend to show, was surpassed by something of the same kind in Germany. No English or even French cook could dress a dinner; no English confectioner set out a dessert ; no English player could act ; no English coachman could drive, or English jockey ride; nor were any English horses fit to be drove or fit to be ridden; no Englishman knew how to come into a room, nor any Englishwoman how to dress herself; nor were there any diversions in England, public or private ; nor any man or woman in England whose conversation was to be borne—the one, as he said, talking of nothing but their dull politics, and the others of nothing but their ugly clothes. Whereas at Hanover all these things were in the utmost perfection: the men were patterns of politeness, bravery, and gallantry; the women of beauty, wit, and entertainment; his troops there were the bravest in the world, his counsellors the wisest, his manufacturers the most ingenious, his subjects the happiest; and at Hanover, in short, plenty reigned, magnificence resided, arts flourished, diversions abounded, riches flowed, and everything was in the utmost perfection that contributes to make a prince great or a people blessed. (...)
In truth he hated the English, looked upon them all as king-killers and republicans, grudged them their riches as well as their liberty, thought them all overpaid, and said to Lady Sundon one day as she was waiting at dinner, just after he returned from Germany, that he was forced to distribute his favours here verydifferently from the manner in which he bestowed them at Hanover ; /that there he rewarded people for doing their duty and serving him well, but that here he was obliged to enrich people for being rascals, and buy them not to cut his throat.
The Queen did not always think in a different style of the English, though she kept her thoughts more to herself than the King, as being more prudent, more sensible, and more mistress of her passions ; yet even she could not entirely disguise these sentiments to the observation of those who were perpetually about her, and put her upon subjects that betrayed her into revealing them.
Hervey was a satirist, so I'm taking this a pinch of salt and the awareness that G2 believing some things were better in Hannover would already been taken as Britain bashing by most Brits, given their idea of England as the climax of civilisation. This said, I still find it amusing, and Mildred, if you do get around to writing Fritz in G2's presence, imagine how the Hannover and Germany praise goes down then. :)
Caroline, btw, never goes with G2 to Hannover; she stays because he always makes her regent in his absence. (Never Fritz of Wales.) Which she thoroughly enjoys. Hervey, ever ready to share scandal, can't report one more about Madame W. other than that he can't understand what G2 sees in her, so he turns towards another German lady in G2's entourage and claims one of "Aunt" Melusine's sisters has also been getting it on with not one, but two Georges and Fritz of Wales:
This Madame d'Elitz was a Schulemberg, sister to my Lady Chesterfield—a very handsome lady, though now a little in her decline, with a reat deal of wit, who had had a thousand lovers, and had been catched in bed with a man twenty years ago, and been divorced from her husband upon it. She was said to have been mistress to three generations of the Hanover family — the late King, the present, and the Prince of Wales before he came to England, which was one generation more than the Duchess of Valentinois " (mistress to Henry II.) could boast of in France. The present King had quitted Madame d'Elitz for Madame Walmoden, upon which a quarrel ensued between the two ladies, and the King thereupon had turned Madame d'Elitz out of the palace the year before; just therefore when the King set out for Hanover this year, Madame d'Elitz set out for England, where she now was with her aunt and sister, the Duchess of Kendal and Lady Chesterfield.
Note from our Victorian editor Croker: Hervey is wrong about Diane de Poitiers having slept with Francis I. of France as well as his son Henry II (the one married to Catherine de' Medici), that was slander, and he's probably slandering the third Schulenburg sister as well. He could be right. Anyway, how come we haven't heard of her before? ETA: Also: didn't Lord Chesterfield help Peter Keith leave Amsterdam hidden as part of his entourage? If Chesterfield was married to a Schulenburg sister, that means he's distantly related to the Kattes, thus also justifying imaginary descendant's name of Philip Stanhope in "Zeithain". Anyway: I propose someone should filk "The Schuyler Sisters" to "The Schulenburg Sisters" /ETA
Speaking of mistresses: G2 makes it known Fritz of Wales should finally tie the knot, and he's found an ideal bride while in Hannover: 17 years old Augusta von Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Queen Caroline adds he should ditch the girlfriend with the child she refuses to believe is her son's. Fritz of Wales, who is about to break up with Miss Vane anyway and according to Hervey has been eying another mistress, takes this parental news and commands well for a change and sends his flunky Lord Baltimore to Miss Vane, with a proposal that she should marry Lord Baltimore and get a pension, thus being cared for, but that it would be tactful to his future bride if she and Baltlimore were to travel abroad for a while. The kid, however, should stay here (and he swears he'll continue to take care of it). Miss Vane upon Hervey's advice and using Hervey as ghostwriter fires off an indignant letter that he's breaking her heart and no way will she leave the country her child is in and what kind of thrifty bastard is he anyway? The upshot of this is that the Lord Baltlimore marriage is off the table, Miss Vane gets a larger pension in her own name and doesn't have to leave the country. Alas, she then goes to Bath to enjoy the spa and dies. Little Fitzfrederick also dies with just a week distance. Hervey grudgingly admits Fritz of Wales seemed more distressed about this than anyone had thought him capable of being.
On to Lady Archibald Hamilton, according to Hervey the new mistress of the love rat. (Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the same Hervey who is writing all this managed to juggle his own wife, Miss Vane, Stephen Fox and Fritz of Wales.)
Lady Archibald Hamilton was not young, had never been very pretty, and had lost at least as much of that small share of beauty she once possessed as it is usual for women to do at five-and-thirty, after being the mother of ten children. Her husband, Lord Archibald Hamilton, was a Scotchman, uncle to the Duke of Hamilton, a Lord of the Admiralty, and of so quiet, so secure, and contented a temper, that he seemed cut out to play the passive character his wife and the Prince had graciously allotted him. His wife was cunning, and had just sense enough to make that cunning useful to her, when employed to work on such a husband as Lord Archibald Hamilton, and such a lover as the Prince of Wales ; and succeeded perfectly well in flattering the first into an opinion of her virtue, and the latter into an admiration of her beauty and understanding, which she facilitated by the much easier task of making the Prince believe she was entirely captivated by his. But as there always are some people who doubt of the most notorious intrigues, as well as others who make no doubt of what only themselves believe, so there were some few who thought, or, I rather believe, affected to think, that this commerce between Lady Archibald Hamilton and the Prince was merely platonic, though stronger symptoms of an affaire faite never appeared on any pair than were to be seen between this couple. He saw her often at her own house, where he seemed as welcome to the master as the mistress ; he met her often, too, at her sister's; walked with her day after day for hours together tete-a-tete in a morning in St. James's Park ; and whenever she was at the drawing-room (which was pretty frequently), his behaviour was so remarkable that his nose and her ear were inseparable(...)
And you thought Voltaire was bitchy about Fritz and Fredersdorf. Lady Archibald Hamilton becomes lady-in-waiting to the new bride, Augusta. Augusta has gotten one of those long distance royal marriages where a substitute gets send and brings the bride home, to which Lord Delaware:
Lord Delaware, if the King chose him to prevent the Prince's having any jealousy of his future bride's affections being purloined on the way by him who was sent to attend her to England, was the properest man his Majesty could have pitched upon ; for, except his white staff and red riband, as Knight of the Bath, I know of nothing belonging to the long, lank, awkward person of Lord Delaware that could attract her eyes ; nor do I believe there could be found in any of the Goth or Yandal courts of Germany a more unpolished ambassador for such an occasion.
Augusta, poor girl, arrives in Britain and throws herself on the ground before the King and Queen, which wins them over for a few days at least. Hervey, however, is not impressed: She could speak not one word of English, and few of French; and when it was proposed the year before to her mother, when this match was resolved upon, that she should be taught one of these languages, her mother said it must be quite unnecessary, for the Hanover Family having been above twenty years on the throne, to be sure most people in England spoke German (and especially at Court) as often and as well as English. A conjecture so well founded that I believe there were not three natives in England that understood one word of it better than in the reign of Queen Anne.
Hervey, I think that says rather more about British nobility than it does about Augusta's Mom's assumptions.
The Princess was rather tall, and had health and youth enough in her face, joined to a very modest andgood-natured look, to make her countenance not disagreeable; but her person, from being very ill-made, a good deal awry, her arms long, and her motions awkward, had, in spite of all the finery of jewels and brocade, an ordinary air, which no trappings could cover or exalt.
Now if you think only women who have sex with Fritz of Wales are the objects of Hervey's scorn, you're mistaken. He's just as malicious about the woman who would have married Fritz of Prussia, to wit, Princess Amalie (as her mother calls her) or Emily (as Hervey calls her). The only princess Hervey likes is Princess Caroline, but as for Amalia/Emily/Amalie:
The Queen used to speak to Lord Hervey on this subject with as little reserve when the Princess Caroline was present, as when alone ; but never before the Princess Emily, who had managed her affairs so well, as to have lost entirely the confidence of her mother, without having obtained the friendship of her brother; by trying to make her court by turns to both, she had by turns betrayed both, and at last lost both. Princess Emily had much the least sense, except her brother, of the family, but had for two years much the prettiest person. She was lively, false, and a great liar ; did many ill offices to people, and no good ones; and, for want of prudence, said as many shocking she said disagreeable ones behind their backs. She had as many enemies as acquaintances, for nobody knew her without disliking her. Lord Hervey was very ill with her : she had first used him ill, to flatter her brother, which of course had made him not use her very well ; and the preference on every occasion he gave her sister, the Princess Caroline, completed their mutual dislike. Princess Caroline had affability without meanness, dignity without pride, cheerfulness without levity, and . prudence without falsehood.
So much for the maybe Queen of Prussia. I should say here she sounds far more amiable in her wiki entry, which is the only other thing I've read about her. Who knows?
If Chesterfield was married to a Schulenburg sister, that means he's distantly related to the Kattes, thus also justifying imaginary descendant's name of Philip Stanhope in "Zeithain"
If my research is correct, it's even crazier than that. I've done my best to organize the convoluted genealogical relationships below.
Act 1
Dramatis Personae
1) Melusine von der Schulenburg, Duchess of Kendal: Related by marriage (but not blood, as far as we can tell), to the Kattes. Called Aunt Melusine by Hans Hermann. Mistress of George I. She and G1 had 3 daughters, (2) - (4) below.
2) Anna Luise von der Schulenburg, Countess of Dölitz: Or "d'Elitz," as Hervey spells it. Oldest daughter of G1 and Melusine. Mistress of G1, G2, and FoW, according to Hervey.
3) Petronella von der Schulenburg: 2nd daughter of G1 and Melusine. Possibly had an affair with visiting Hans Hermann in the 1720s, per a letter from Hans Heinrich to his brother. Married Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield, aka the famous Chesterfield, in 1733.
4) Margarethe Gertrud von Oeynhausen: 3rd daughter of G1 and Melusine. I have no stories about her (yet).
5) Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield: The famous one. Married to Melusine's daughter Petronella. British envoy to the Netherlands in 1730. Helped Peter Keith escape to England.
6) Philip Stanhope: Modern-day protagonist of Zeithain. Fictional descendant of Petronella and Chesterfield, who in reality had no children together.
See also the family tree, which is missing Melusine's other daughters, because at the time I made it, I didn't know that one was of such interest to gossipy sensationalists. ;)
Scene 1 Philip Stanhope is so named because Melusine's daughter Petronella married Lord Chesterfield.
Scene 2 When Hervey writes, "Madame d'Elitz was a Schulemberg, sister to my Lady Chesterfield," it's because Madame d'Elitz is Melusine's oldest daughter, and Melusine's second daughter, Petronella, is Lady Chesterfield (as of 1733).
Scene 3 If Anna Luise has been sleeping with G1, G2, and FoW, or any combination thereof, those are her father, half-brother, and half-nephew. That's one generation more (that I know of) than Countess Orzelska, supposed lover of her father and half-brother!
Act 2
Dramatis Personae
7) Gertrud von der Schulenberg: Sister of Melusine. Wife of Friedrich Achaz von der Schulenburg, who is clearly related to her, although how closely, I can't say. Adoptive mother of (2) - (3), Anna Luise and Petronella.
8) Friedrich Achaz von der Schulenburg: Married to Melusine's sister. Related to his wife somehow. Adoptive father of Melusine's two oldest children by G1.
Scene 1 You might have been lured into thinking that Anna Luise and Petronella are von der Schulenbergs because their mother Melusine was a von der Schulenberg and they were illegitimate, but no, that would be too easy.
The reason Anna Luise (2) and Petronella (3) are von der Schulenbergs, while their younger sister (4) is not, is that the first two were adopted by their mother's sister, Aunt Gertrud, and it so happens that Aunt Gertrud had married a relative by the same last name. Whereas (4) was adopted by a *different* sister of Melusine, who had married a different man, and thus had a different last name.
Scene 2 So when Hervey writes, "Madame d'Elitz set out for England, where she now was with her aunt and sister, the Duchess of Kendal and Lady Chesterfield," it's because her aunt, the Duchess of Kendal, is actually her mother (you know, like all the popes and their "nephews"), and her adoptive mother is her real mother's sister.
So I'm speculating that Hervey thinks Madame d'Elitz is actually the daughter of Melusine's sister and *not* the daughter of G1 and Melusine, otherwise we'd be hearing a lot more about supposed incest? Or could that be the product of grandson + editor bowdlerization?
I can't give you a genealogical visual here, but I might make one up at some point, back pain permitting. Because wow. ;)
Edited 2020-09-20 02:33 (UTC)
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
So I'm speculating that Hervey thinks Madame d'Elitz is actually the daughter of Melusine's sister and *not* the daughter of G1 and Melusine, otherwise we'd be hearing a lot more about supposed incest? Or could that be the product of grandson + editor bowdlerization?
While the later isn't impossible, my money is on the former, and futhermore, that it's another case of English nobles mistaking the Hannover royals treating their illegitimate kin as family members meaning said kin are mistresses. Given the precedent of Sophia von Kielmannsegg/Lady Darlington, that makes sense. Besides, Hervey mentions being bored to tears and tuning out whenever G2, who loved talking genealogy - it was a hobby of his - started on who was related to whom. Thus, Hervey might have missed the mention that this lady was in fact G2's half sister, if, that is, G2 bothered to mention it.
Also, thank you so much on another superb job, Royal Librarian and Genealogist! And so it's still true that Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam by the husband of Katte's sort of cousin and possible deflowerer. Saved in more sense than one, because the essay you so kindly allowed me to read contains some great info on the years 1730 - 1732, among them that in 1730, there was a big scandal and trial against hundreds of gay men which made international waves.
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
another case of English nobles mistaking the Hannover royals treating their illegitimate kin as family members meaning said kin are mistresses
Ah, yes, that does make sense. I think we've solved this mystery! (Pending further evidence, as always.)
Hervey mentions being bored to tears and tuning out whenever G2, who loved talking genealogy - it was a hobby of his - started on who was related to whom.
Lololol, yep, I bet that'd do it.
And so it's still true that Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam by the husband of Katte's sort of cousin and possible deflowerer.
Future husband, but yes. I'd thought it was only unreliable Wilhelmine and unreliable son of Keith who mentioned Chesterfield by name, but I checked Kloosterhuis yesterday, and it's also in the Mylius write-up that Keith was admitted to Chesterfield's house for asylum, and Mylius cites his sources, so I'm taking it as true. Though from the report, it kind of looks like Chesterfield wasn't directly involved?
Ob nun gleich der nachgeschickte Königlich Preußische Obrist du Moulin und der preußische Envoyé alle Mühe angewendet, seiner habhafft zu werden, auch von denen committirten Räthen von Holland eine Ordre an den Cammer-Bewaerder erhalten gehabt, denselben arretiren zu lassen, so ist es doch umsonst gewesen, indem nach des Cammer-Bewaerders Rapport vom 15. August 1730 und anderen habenden Nachrichten schon Tages zuvor gegen Abend der von Kait mit dem Cammer[-Diener] des Generallieutenants Baron von Keppel, so ehmahls alß Envoyé in Berlin gewesen, aus dem Quartier ,Zu 3 Schwalben‘ genant weggegangen, nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport in des Großbritannischen Ambassadeurs Mylords Graffen von Chesterfields Hauß getragen und an obbesagten Cammerdiener abgegeben worden.
Im Haag hat dieser von Kait sich sehr bemühet, einen Comte d’Halberville auszufragen, hat sich auch unter dem Nahmen eines Graffen von Sparr an- fangs bey den obbesagten Generallieutenant Baron von Keppel anmelden laßen, jedoch derselbe ihn nicht gekant. Weil aber deßelben Cammerdiener nicht wißen wollen, wohin der von Kait gekommen sey, und in Abwesenheit des Graffen von Chesterfields der Secretarius sich gegen den Preußischen Envoyé und erwehnten Obristen entschuldiget, daß ihn nicht zustehe, einige Recherches zu thun und über die Domestiquen sich dergleichen Autoritaet anzumaßen, so ist im Haag seine Persohn weiter aufzusuchen umsonst gewesen. Es hat auch der desertirte von Kait sich nicht mehr lange aufgehalten, sondern sich weggemacht, und ist den 18ten August früh in Gesellschaft des Haus- [und] Hof-Meisters von besagtem Graffen und nebst noch 2 Persohnen zu Schevelingen mit einer Kutsche angekommen, und nachdem er von denenselben an ein dazu gemiethetes Pinco oder Fischer-Schiff begleitet worden, ist er ohnerachtet der Wind sehr contrair gewesen, daß auch andere Schiffe in die Maas zurückgetrieben worden, dennoch in aller Eyl ab- und nach Engelland übergegangen.
My take on this:
Mylius: "FW, please believe us, your guys tried REALLY HARD to capture that Peter, but to no avail. Here's why.
"According to the report I have in hand, written on 15. August 1730, Peter had shown up at Chesterfield's house the day before, toward evening, together with the chamberlain of Baron von Keppel [Mildred: this guy, I think] who formerly had been envoy in Berlin [Mildred: I'm assuming that's where Peter knew him from].
"Now, Peter had been asking all around the Hague after Fritz's pseudonym, and initially introduced himself under his own, but von Keppel [Mildred: apparently a British courtier with ties to the Netherlands] didn't know him under that name [Mildred: and presumably wouldn't admit him until he gave his real name].
"Then the Prussians showed up the next day, and Keppel's chamberlain was like, 'Sorry, Chesterfield isn't here atm, Peter who? I can't help you, no authority to investigate this on my own or tell Chesterfield's staff what to do, plz go away.' So our Prussian guys had to give up as they got totally stonewalled by the British.
"Then three days later, Peter was taken to the coast by Chesterfield's staff, and set sail in all haste to England, even though it was so stormy that other ships were being driven back to the Meuse.
"Sorry, Your Majesty! Points for effort?"
nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport
Google and I are stumped on "Hardes." All I can find is "old clothes, rags" in Norman. Help?
the essay you so kindly allowed me to read contains some great info on the years 1730 - 1732, among them that in 1730, there was a big scandal and trial against hundreds of gay men which made international waves.
Ooh, I can't wait for the write-up on this one! I've been thinking that we should dig a little more into the history of homosexuality during our period, only I have to learn German before I can start reading new things. So yay for you reading new things and telling us about them! The free, made-to-order education never fails to astound me. All hail Royal Reader!
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
Seine Hardes - Rokoko German strikes again. I have to guess from context and can't think of an appropriate newer German or French word - Rokoko German having a lot of those - but how about: "...after just a short while earlier, his luggage had been transported to the above named house of the Ambassador of Great Britain, Mylord Earl of Chesterfield, and had been delivered to the earlier named valet; this according to the report of the house servant."
(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)
It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
Yeah, I could tell that none of my Google hits for this word postdated 1900, so I figured it was an old-fashioned one. Thanks for taking your best stab at it!
(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)
I had figured as much, but as for English translations...I'm sure thanks to 19th century English country houses, we could convey the hierarchical difference, but I'm not sure exactly how. Valet/chamberlain is pretty high-ranking in English, and as for Hausknecht...google tells me that "house boy" has a different meaning today, although "house boy" and "hall boy" were both used for low-ranking English servants, as was "page". "Footman" is more easily recognized today, though I don't know if it would be the appropriate equivalent of Hausknecht.
It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
Wonderful! Largely because of the paywall, we haven't been reading many recent essays, as opposed to books, in our salon, but I do have JSTOR access myself if you ever want anything from there, and Royal Patron has broader access, though with more of a delay.
ETA: Just from reading the footnote to the first page, I see: This paper springs from a joint project on John, Lord Hervey, which the authors intend will lead in due course to a new edition of his 'Memoirs' and correspondence.
Nice! Because we need one.
Hmm. Though this article was published in 2009, the new edition doesn't seem to be out yet, though Smith's web page says, "I continue to pursue an interest in eighteenth-century court culture through work on a new edition of Lord Hervey’s Memoirs of the Reign of King George II, co-edited with Stephen Taylor." No idea how recently her page was updated, though.
ETA2: Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam
Just a nitpick: The Hague. That was Fritz's destination, that's where Chesterfield and the other envoys lived, and that's where the government is based even today, even though Amsterdam is the capital. Wikipedia tells me:
In 1806, when the Kingdom of Holland was a puppet state of the First French Empire, the settlement was granted city rights by Louis Bonaparte. After the Napoleonic Wars, modern-day Belgium and the Netherlands were combined in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands to form a buffer against France. As a compromise, Brussels and Amsterdam alternated as capital every two years, with the government remaining in The Hague. After the separation of Belgium in 1830, Amsterdam remained the capital of the Netherlands, while the government was situated in The Hague.
TFW your capital changes every two years, I guess.
I was delighted and surprised to get more Hervey :D Though I hope you can sleep better!
Mildred, if you do get around to writing Fritz in G2's presence, imagine how the Hannover and Germany praise goes down then. :)
Lol, this would be awesome. Write this and I will bring popcorn :D
Alas, she then goes to Bath to enjoy the spa and dies. Little Fitzfrederick also dies with just a week distance. Hervey grudgingly admits Fritz of Wales seemed more distressed about this than anyone had thought him capable of being.
Sad as this is for Vane, I have to admit I laughed. Oh Hervey.
And you thought Voltaire was bitchy about Fritz and Fredersdorf.
lololol wow! I see that malicious gossip columnists have nothing on Hervey!
so there were some few who thought, or, I rather believe, affected to think, that this commerce between Lady Archibald Hamilton and the Prince was merely platonic, though stronger symptoms of an affaire faite never appeared on any pair than were to be seen between this couple.
So... was she actually his mistress?
Lord Delaware, if the King chose him to prevent the Prince's having any jealousy of his future bride's affections being purloined on the way by him who was sent to attend her to England, was the properest man his Majesty could have pitched upon
Man this guy does have a spiteful and hilarious way of phrasing things!
Lord Hervey was very ill with her : she had first used him ill, to flatter her brother, which of course had made him not use her very well ; and the preference on every occasion he gave her sister, the Princess Caroline, completed their mutual dislike.
Ha. The sympathies of this passage are definitely on the side of this "Lord Hervey" character :P I wouldn't trust his take on her either :P
Lady Archibald Hamilton, first name Jane: Wiki says she was his mistress, though Wiki appears to have Hervey as a source on this. However, wiki also tells me she was the mother of none other than Sir William Hamilton, later to first shock everyone by marrying Emma and then by being in a menage a trois with her and Nelson. Perhaps Sir William learned unconventional attitudes towards domestic arrangements from his parents?
Man this guy does have a spiteful and hilarious way of phrasing things!
Doesn't he just? Which is why I find it, in retrospect, really remarkable Franz Stephan got praised as he did by the super critical Hervey when visiting Britain. (I mean, Hervey's also extremely complimentary about the Fox brothers and Algarotti, but he was in love with each of these at different times, and wasn't, as far as anyone knows, in love with Franz Stephan.)
But for all that Hervey doesn't like G2, he drops the occasional oddly endearing anecdote as well, like the fox hunting dialogue. The Fritz of Wales bashing from him and everyone showing up in these memoirs, though, is absolutely relentless. Our Victorian editor just throws up his hands and says he has no idea just why both parents hated FoW so much even before he joined forces with the opposition and thus gave them cause, even before he arrived in England and was still a youngster in Hannover and according to visitors (including, btw, Hervey on his Grand Tour) an amiable, bright child with a lot of charm.
Now, Fritz of Wales' budget is much less than what his father G2 used to get when he'd been Fritz of Wales, and when this still doesn't change after marriage, he doesn't just keep asking his parents for more, no, he tries to get his budget heightened via parliament. This scheme doesn't work, partly Sir Robert Walpole and Hervey work against it. (Hervey asks for a peerage for Stephen Fox from Walpole given that Stephen did his best to cajole his parliamentary colleagues to side with the King, not the Prince, and for some thank you money for Henry Fox, who did the same.) Meanwhile, FW's rants against Fritz are completely matched by Queen Caroline's words about her son and his attempt to make common cause with MPs:
"My God," says the Queen, " popularity always makes me sick ; but Fritz's popularity makes me vomit. I hear that yesterday, on his side of the house, they talked of the King's being cast away with the same sang-froid as you would talk of a coach being overturned ; and that my good son strutted about as if he had been already King. Did you mind the air with which he came into my drawing-room in the morning, though he does not think fit to honour me with his presence or ennui me with his wife's of a night?"
Events come to a head when Augusta gets pregnant and Caroline tells everyone she thinks Augusta is faking it, and will substitute a bought baby, and then Fritz of Wales refuses to tell his parents when the birth is expected when G2 orders him and Augusta to Hampton Court, and when his wife gets into labor, insists on taking her to St. James. (Which however you look at it was an incredibly selfish jerk move - that drive with a woman in labor must have been hell - but of course Hervey doesn't think all the relentless hate from the rest of the family might have given Fritz of Wales the inspiration of not wanting his parents present at the kid's birth. As mentioned in my Horowitz write up , the baby is a sickly girl which, Caroline says, is the only reason why believes it's Augusta's baby after all. She's nice to Augusta when she visits but doesn't say a word to Fritz of Wales. The rupture between son and parents is now complete. Letters are exchanged. Some courtiers try to mediate, but: Lord Essex telling, and asking, at the same time, if he should call one of the Ministers, the Queen said, " For what? to give an answer to Fritz ? Does the King want a Minister to tell him what answer he likes to give to his son ? or to call a council for such a letter, like an aifair d'etat?"
In between everything else, an old plan gets revived - separating Hannover and Britain, with giving one to Caroline's and G2's fave William, future Billy the Butcher. Says our editor in a footnote: George I., in his enmity to George II., entertained some idea of separating the sovereignty of England and Hanover (Coxe^s Walpole, p. 132) ; and we find from Lord Chancellor King's ' Diary,' under the date of June, 1725, " a negotiation had been lately on foot in relation to the two young Princes, Frederick and William. The Prince (George II.) and his wife were for excluding Prince Frederick, but that after the King and the Prince he should be Elector of Hanover, and Prince William King of Great Britain ; but that the King said it would be unjust to do it without Prince Frederick's consent, who was now of an age to judge for himself, and so the matter now stood " (Campbell's ' Chancellors,' iv. 318). Sir Robert Walpole, who communicated this to the Chancellor, added that he had told George I. that " if he did not bring Prince Frederick over in his life-time, he would never set his foot on English ground." This early enmity of his parents to Frederick Lord Campbell cannot explain ; " but the Prince had his revenge by perpetually disturbing the government of his father till, in 1751, the joyful exclamation by George II was uttered, ' Fritz is dead!' "—ib.
Which Hervey, who died in the early 1740s, didn't live to see. (Nor Fritz of Wales as a father even his enemies couldn't bash; FoW raised his children - he had nine all in all - with English as their first language, he gave them all a bit of the garden in his estate they were to garden themselves as they wanted, which started a life long passion in future G2, "Farmer George", and he played with them and encouraged them with music.) What he did live to see where endless "We hate Fritz" parties with the other royals:
The Princess Caroline, who loved her mother and disliked her brother in equal and extreme degrees, was in much the same state of mind as the Queen ; her consideration and regard for her mother making her always adopt the Queen's opinions, as well as share her pleasures and her afflictions. They neither of them made much ceremony of wishing a hundred times a day that the Prince might drop down dead of an apoplexy— the Queen cursing the hour of his birth, and the Princess Caroline declaring she grudged him every hour he continued to breathe ; and reproaching Lord Hervey with his weakness for having ever loved him, and being fool enough to think that he had been ever beloved by him, as well as being so great a dupe as to believe the nauseous beast (those were her words) cared for anybody but his own nauseous self—that he loved anything but money—that he was not the greatest liar that ever spoke—and would not put one arm about anybody's neck to kiss them, and then stab' them with the other, if he could censored passageShe protested that from the time he had been here six months—so early had she found him out—she had never loved him better or thought better of him than at that moment.'
At this point it must have occurred to Hervey that future readers might doubt how reliable he is re: Fritz of Wales, so he does some self analysis about his motives, in the third person:
The truth is, if his temper was susceptible of provocation, he might, without being capable of feeling long provoked at the same circumstance, have continued long warm in his resentment against the Prince, since scarce a day passed without some new lie the Prince had made of him during the quarrel, as well as some virulent thing he now said of him, being reported to Lord Hervey by the Queen or the Princess Caroline, who both hated the Prince at this time to a degree which cannot be credited or conceived by people who did not hear the names they called him, the character they gave him, the curses they lavished upon him, and the fervour with which they both prayed every day for his death. It would be endless to endeavour to repeat all the lies Lord Hervey at this time heard the Prince had coined of him, but one or two of the most remarkable I will insert. The Prince told the Queen and all his sisters that Lord Hervey had told him everybody said his Royal Highness was known to have such a partiality for the Princess Eoyal, and to be so incapable of concealing anything from her, that nobody doubted (Note from Editor - lines stricken out in manuscript by grandson). Another was that Lord Hervey, from the moment he first came about him, had been always endeavouring to give him ill impressions of the Queen and all his sisters ; to blow him up against his father and a hundred times endeavoured to persuade him to make a party to move for his 100,000?. a-year in Parliament^ as well as brought offers to him from people in the Opposition, and made use of Miss Vane's interest to get them accepted. I do not relate these things as any justification of Lord Hervey's conduct at this time ; for if personal resentment, and a desire to vex and mortify the Prince,- had any share in his views and counsels at this juncture, I own he is not justifiable, as nothing can justify the meanness of a man of sense desiring, from a principle of revenge, to hurt those by whom he has been injured, further than self-preservation requires, or the silly received laws of mistaken customary honour enjoin: but take this particular (with regard to the Prince) out of Lord Hervey's character, and I believe it would be impossible to give another instance of the same sort of wrong to anybody in any part of his conduct ; though few people had more enemies, or had reason to be irritated against more people, if being abused is allowed to be a reason.
Yes, Hervey, I'm sure you were the milk of human kindness otherwise. Good grief.
Edited 2020-09-19 18:50 (UTC)
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Who's the worst Fritz of them all?
They neither of them made much ceremony of wishing a hundred times a day that the Prince might drop down dead of an apoplexy— the Queen cursing the hour of his birth, and the Princess Caroline declaring she grudged him every hour he continued to breathe ;
Wow. Even accounting for Hervey maybe not being the most reliable narrator here... gosh.
That analysis of his motives in third person is really... something. I gotta say that it does not inspire me to think of him as more reliable than I thought of him before.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Who's the worst Fritz of them all?
I mean, Hervey by no means makes this hostility within the Royal family up. The other bitchy memoirist of the period, Walpole, backs him up there, with the one significant difference that Walpole claims Caroline sent a secret message to Fritz of Wales on her deathbed that she forgives him (so she could die in peace), but that she couldn't allow him in her presence because it would upset G2, whereas Hervey is insistent Caroline hated her eldest till her dying breath. And of course just as with the arguments between G1 and G2, the ones between FoW and his parents made it into various ambassadorial reports. Where I'm a tad sceptical is Hervey's analysis of his own motives, but not in the sense that he's consciously lying.
Now, FoW even when you assume bias was by no means fault-free, but it's the divergence between the rethoric employed - the authors of the "Hephaistion" essay point out Hervey's decriptions occasionally borrow from Tacitus on Tiberius and Nero - and what's actually there that is so startling. Rethoric aside, what FoW is guilty of:
- pre-marriage, having mistresses, as most bachalor (or married) princes, FW aside, did. Possibly also post marriage, depending on whether you think he and Lady Archivald Hamilton had a thing and kept carrying on. (BTW, her wiki entry lists her as his mistress, whereas her son's wiki entry is far more cautious and says "possible", as in: His mother was a favourite, and possibly a mistress, of the Prince of Wales and William grew up with his son George III, who would call him his "foster brother". (Citation given here, a biography of Sir William Hamilton.) (BTW, if you're wondering why G3 calling Sir William "foster brother" did not help Sir William's widow Emma many a year later, by then G3 had his second and lasting diagnosis of madness and was locked away.)
- feuding with his sister and parents about Handel, supporting a rival opera
- wanting a higher budget, like the one his father used to get as Prince of Wales
- drifting towards the parliamentary opposition, to the point where he tries to use Parliament to force his father to give him a higher budget
- not refering to the Queen in his letters to the King (classified as a sign of disrespect by his parents)
- pretending to respect and love his parents in publich when he does not.
- The stunt he pulled with Augusta in labor, inflicting the one and a half hour drive on her rather than let her give birth at Hampton Court.
Only the last one is truly terrible (imo, as always), and Augusta would have been the one with a right to complain and condemn, not the parents who spent the entire pregnancy doubting the baby was real. It's clearly a case of another catastrophic feedback loop, where Fritz of Wales after fourteen years of absence shows up a stranger, can't connect with a family who doesn't really want him to be there (though I doubt they hated him from the get go), and eventually gives up trying and becomes hostile in turn, which furthers everyone's aversion towards him.
Meanwhile, despite groving up in Hannover, he really did his best to fit in, to become English, using only this language when talking to Brits, not French, and during his friendship with Hervey co-writing a play in it. (A bad play, but that's besides the point). Later when he was a father he ensured that English was the children's first language (hence G3 being the first Hannover monarch who actually spoke English as his native language). The friends he chose were from Britain, not from the Germans at court. But that made his parents even more suspicious of him.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Who's the worst Fritz of them all?
I mean he was kinda wrong there ...although this link makes it sound like he was fine with Handel, just not with Handel's opera company? Which makes a lot more sense to me, honestly. (And which Hervey's excerpt does not make clear at all!)
not refering to the Queen in his letters to the King (classified as a sign of disrespect by his parents)
Whoa. This is the kind of thing that getting upset about is just so textbook dysfunctional family that it pulled me up short reading it. Yeah, I can totally see what you call the catastrophic feedback loop happening, where at some point everyone just gets so hostile to everyone else that no one is willing to give anyone else even kind of the benefit of the doubt. Gah!
Meanwhile, despite groving up in Hannover, he really did his best to fit in, to become English, using only this language when talking to Brits, not French, and during his friendship with Hervey co-writing a play in it. (A bad play, but that's besides the point). Later when he was a father he ensured that English was the children's first language (hence G3 being the first Hannover monarch who actually spoke English as his native language). The friends he chose were from Britain, not from the Germans at court.
I find that rather endearing :)
Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
I had almost finished them the last time, but here are a few more quotes. The big climax of the memoirs and their finale are Queen Caroline's death and the immediate aftermath. Hervey ends his memoirs there, and like the essay says, for all that their title refers to the reign of George II, they should really be titled "reign of Caroline", for she is the central character in his narrative. She died a terrible death: Since her last pregnancy, Caroline had suffered from an umbilical hernia, or a hole in her belly, and couldn’t bear to have anything tight around her middle. Nor could she bear to have anyone know about such an embarrassing disorder, and she always kept on her shift when being undressed by her ladies. Finally, in 1737, a bit of her bowel popped out through that hole, and she could not disguise the fact that she was seriously ill. Her doctors should have pushed that loop of bowel back inside and hoped that the hole would heal, but instead they made a terrible error. They cut it off. Now Caroline’s digestive system was destroyed, and she took ten days to die. Incidentally, I had to look up the medical details, because our Victorian editor childes Hervey for providing them (about a lady! and a Queen!) and proudly announces he protects us readers from them as much as he can. What's still there is all the surrounding drama, which took place shortly after Fritz of Wales had that big break with his parents due to way his first legitimate daughter was born. When he heard about the Queen's state of health, he tried to see her, but no dice. Hervey of course thinks he was probably popping the champagne in anticipation and faking all filial feelings. FoW's parents heartily agree, as mentioned in my write-up of the Halsband biography. Here's a passage from shortly before Caroline's illness is discovered:
Lord Hervey took occasion upon this subject, among many other things, to say, he did not believe there ever was a father and a son so thoroughly unlike in every particular as the King and the Prince, and enumerated several points in which they differed, as little to the advantage of the Prince as to the dispraise or displeasure of the King. The King said he had really thought so himself a thousand times, and had often asked the Queen if the beast was his son. Lord Hervey said that question must be to very little purpose, for to be sure the Queen would never own it if he was not. The King said the first child generally was the husband's, "and therefore," says he, "I fancy he is what in German we call a Weckselbalch; (Hervey's spelling; it's actually "Wechselbalg") I do not know," continued he, " if you have a word for it in English : it is not what you call a foundling, but a child put in a cradle instead of another." " That is a changeling," replied Lord Hervey. The King was extremely pleased with this translation, and said, " I wish you could prove him a changeling in the German sense of the word as easily as anybody can prove him so in the other ;—though the Queen was a great while before her maternal affection would give him up for a fool, and yet I told her so before he had been acting as if he had not common sense." Lord Hervey said the Queen had often last year done the honours of his Royal Highness's understanding to him, and was very loth to give it quite up, but that of late he had not perceived she had any hope left of disguising it. "My dear Lord," replied the Queen, ' " I will give it you under my hand, if you are in any fear of my relapsing, that my dear first-born is the greatest ass and the greatest liar, and the greatest canaille, and the greatest beast in the whole world, and I that I most heartily wish he was out of it."
And so on, and so forth. Now, you may recall G2 had had a terrible relationship with his own father, G1, so FoW and/or his advisors get the idea to publish some letters between G1 and future G2 when G2 was Prince of Wales, with the implication: Hypocrite much? Considering most of said letters were burned by Caroline when G2 became King, the Royals think that Fritz must have gotten those letters from the Duchess of Kendal. (Aka Aunt Melusine to Katte, mistress of G1.) Otoh, Hervey thinks Fritz must have a spy in the palace, because the letters published are just those three not burned. In any event, he thinks they just demonstrate that G1 was a way harsher father, since he temporarily took G2's children from him during their biggest argument, while G2 generously declared he wouldn't do that to FoW.
During Caroline's ten days of dying, Hervey and the Royals, minus Fritz and Augusta who aren't allowed access, spend most at the time in Caroline's bed room or next door. This temporarly makes Hervey soften on the King, but not so much is second least favourite Hannover offspring, Emily/Amalia, quondam intended for Fritz of Prussia. An illustration in the following scene (re: storm - G2 and Emily are referencing G2 during his most recent return from Hannover being caught in a tempest across the channel):
One night whilst the Queen was ill, as (G2) was sitting in his nightgown and nightcap in a great chair, with his legs upon a stool, and nobody in the room with him but the Princess Emily, who lay upon a couch, and Lord Hervey, who sat by the fire, he talked in this strain of his own courage in the storm and his illness, till the Princess Emily, as Lord Hervey thought, fell fast asleep, whilst Lord Hervey, as tired as he was of the present conversation and this last week's watching, was left alone to act civil auditor and adroit courtier, to applaud what he heard, and every now and then to ask such proper questions as led the King into giving some more particular detail of his own magnanimity. The King, turning towards Princess Emily, and seeing her eyes shut, cried, "Poor good child! her duty, affection, and attendance on her mother have quite exhausted her spirits." And soon after he went into the Queen's room. As soon as his back was turned. Princess Emily started up, and said, " Is he gone ? How tiresome he is!" Lord Hervey, who had no mind to trust her Royal Highness with his singing her father's praises in duetto with her, replied only, " I thought your Royal Highness had been asleep." " No," said the Princess Emily ; " I only shut my eyes that I might not join in the ennuyant conversation, and wish I could have shut my ears too. In the first place, I am sick to death of hearing of his great courage every day of my life ; in the next place, one thinks now of Mama, and not of him. Who cares for his old storm ? I believe, too, it is a great lie, and that he was as much afraid as I should have been, for all what he says now ; and as to his not being afraid when he was ill, I know that is a lie, for I saw him, and I heard all his sighs and his groans, when he was in no more danger than I am at this moment. He was talking, too, for ever of dying, and that he was sure he should not recover." All this, considering the kind things she had heard the King say the minute before, when he imagined her asleep. Lord Hervey thought a pretty extraordinary return for her to make for that paternal goodness, or would have thought it so in anybody but her ; and looked upon this openness to him, whom she did not love, yet less to be accounted for, unless he could have imagined it was to draw him in to echo her, and then to relate what he said as if he had said it unaccompanied. Whilst she was going on with the panegyric on theKing which I have related, the King returned, upon which she began to rub her eyes as if she had that instant raised her head from her pillows, and said, "I have really slept very heartily. How long had Papa been out of the room ?" The King, who had very little or rather no suspicion in his composition, took these appearances for realities, and said, " It is time for us all to take a little rest. We will all go to bed, for by staying here we do the poor Queen no good, and ourselves hurt." And so dismissing Lord Hervey, they all retired.
You already know the famous "Marry again after my death"/ "No, I will have mistresses!" exchange in French between Caroline and G2, for which Hervey is the source. G2 was truly distraught upon her death, and mistresses or not, remained so. Caroline's coffin and later his own are of the kind where you can draw one of the walls back once both are laid next to each other; he wanted their dust to mingle. (Caroline died in 1737; G2 in 1761). Grieving Caroline together makes him bond with Hervey (enough so Hervey ends up being appointed Lord Privy Seal), and thus Hervey gets treated to G2's reflections on his German relations. Which brings us back to our main points of interest again. A reminder: G2's mother was Sophia Dorothea the older, locked up for 30 years for her affair with (probably murdered) Count Königsmarck, and dying in prison. The "Reminscences" are by Horace Walpole, son of Sir Robert Walpole and the other great bitchy memoirist of the Georgian era:
The King often said, and to many people at this time, that not only he and his family should have a great loss in the Queen's death, but the whole nation: and would instance occasions where he owned her good sense and good temper had kept his passions within bounds which they would otherwise have broken. And during this retirement (in which he was infinitely more talkative than I ever knew him at any other time of his whole life) he discoursed so constantly and so openly of himself, that if anybody had had a mind to write the memoirs of his life from his cradle to the present moment, the Princesses and Lord Hervey could have furnished them with materials of all the occurrences, transactions, and anecdotes, military, civil, amorous, foreign, and domestic, that could be comprehended in such a work, from his own lips : excepting what related to his mother, whom on no occasion I ever heard him mention, not even inadvertently or indirectly, any more than if such a person had never had a being. (*)
*Footnote by Victorian editor Croker: This is remarkable, and seems hardly reconcilable with the strong opinion of her innocence and the affectionate regard for her person attributed to him in the Reminiscences. "The second George loved his mother as much as he hated his father ; and purposed, it was said, if she had survived, to have brought her over and declared her Queen-Dowager. Lady Suffolk told me her surprise on going to the new Queen the morning after George I.'s death, at seeing hung up in the Queen's dressrng-room the whole-length of a lady in royal robes, and in the bed-chamber a half-length of the same person, which Lady Suffolk had never seen before." They were of his mother, which the Prince had till then kept concealed.
And now for the Prussians. G2's aunt was Sophie Charlotte, not just mother of FW but foster mother of Caroline, praised as not just one of the most beautiful but definitely one of the best educated and smartest women of her time, which is why I find this statement, err, interesting: Of his aunt, the Queen of Prussia, too he spoke well, who, by what I heard from others, and particularly the Queen, was a very vain, good-for-nothing woman.
Et tu, Caroline? You owe your education to her, among other things. I feel let down. G2's sister is of course Sophia Dorothea the younger, wife of FW, and on her, grieving G2 apparantly had this to say in 1737:
For his sister, the present Queen of Prussia, he had the contempt she deserved, and a hatred she did not deserve.
WTF? For both Hervey and G2. Hervey having zilch interest in the Prussians per se, and dying when Fritz is still busy conquering Silesia, I don't see how he'd have any motive to make this up. But see: Hervey never met SD. He visited Hannover only once, as a young man on his Grand Tour (when he first encountered nine years old Fritz of Wales), and I don't think she was visiting Hannover as well on that occasion. Prussia, he didn't visit at all. So what is this estimation - that SD deserved contempt but not hate - based on? Perhaps all that begging for the English marriages struck him as pathetic, even if he didn't care enough to note it down, but that's the only thing I can think of.
(Now of course SD with her own treatment of her children provides enough reasons to dislike her, but Hervey seems to know nothing about this.)
As to why G2 should have contempt and hate for his sister: search me. It's not like she was madly in love with FW and rejecting her family of birth, au contraire. I'm almost starting to come around to Fritz' pov on Hannover versus Hohenzollern, but luckily your Ziebura read through reminds me this would be wrong. The rest of the Prussian pasage:
What he thought and said of the King of Prussia was much the same as what the King of Prussia thought and said of him ; that he was a proud, brutal, tyrannical, wrong-headed, impracticable fellow, who loved nobody and would use everybody ill that was in his power. How far these two Kings were in the right in this point, or how little they were so in every other, is not my business here to determine.
Meaning: peas in a pod. Again, based on all this, my speculation re: G2 pleading with the other European monarchs for Fritz' life is that it was mostly because if he didn't get to kill his son, FW certainly wouldn't. And speaking of murder: if Fritz and Wilhelmine had made those marriages, do want to place any bets on when things would have gotten violent? (Provided most circumstances stay the same.) Would Fritz of Prussia have had the fatal relationship and fallout with Hervey instead of Fritz of Wales? Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine, too, of faking her pregnancy because their oldest surely can't sire a child? Would Fritz of Prussia have killed Fritz of Wales for taking Wilhelmine in labor for a one and a half hour drive because he didn't want his parents to be present at the birth? Place your bets!
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
I'm on vacation, she says. I won't be able to do write-ups, she says. :D
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
Her doctors should have pushed that loop of bowel back inside and hoped that the hole would heal, but instead they made a terrible error. They cut it off. Now Caroline’s digestive system was destroyed, and she took ten days to die.
Oooh nooooo! That sounds like the *worst*. Did they know it was a bowel? 'Cause this would make sense if they thought it was some random growth.
our Victorian editor childes Hervey for providing them (about a lady! and a Queen!) and proudly announces he protects us readers from them as much as he can.
*sigh*
I am really looking forward to Smith and Taylor's new and improved post-Victorian edition.
Considering most of said letters were burned by Caroline when G2 became King, the Royals think that Fritz must have gotten those letters from the Duchess of Kendal. (Aka Aunt Melusine to Katte, mistress of G1.) Otoh, Hervey thinks Fritz must have a spy in the palace, because the letters published are just those three not burned.
Hmmm. Reading between the lines, does this mean Melusine (lover of G1 and possibly therefore not a fan of G2?) and Fritz of Wales were on good terms?
G1 was a way harsher father, since he temporarily took G2's children from him during their biggest argument, while G2 generously declared he wouldn't do that to FoW.
Fritz of Prussia: And I'm with you on that! My younger siblings don't know how good they have it.
the famous "Marry again after my death"/ "No, I will have mistresses!" exchange in French between Caroline and G2, for which Hervey is the source
Hervey is the British Lehndorff counterpart in another way: our source for all these anecdotes we know!
The "Reminscences" are by Horace Walpole, son of Sir Robert Walpole and the other great bitchy memoirist of the Georgian era:
Which you will not be surprised to find in the library. They're so incredibly short the editor feels the need to apologize and flesh them out with a supplement of collected letters in order to make it long enough to be a short book instead of a long essay.
Et tu, Caroline? You owe your education to her, among other things. I feel let down.
But where would this family be without everyone bitching at everybody else?
So what is this estimation - that SD deserved contempt but not hate - based on? Perhaps all that begging for the English marriages struck him as pathetic, even if he didn't care enough to note it down, but that's the only thing I can think of.
The only thing I can think of is Wilhelmine's description of her that she gives the appearance of having more intellectual and artistic depth than she actually has, but 1) given that she's a queen, I'm not sure that more is expected of her? 2) I'm not sure how much Hervey would care about that. It is the sort of thing he could have picked up with out meeting her, though.
As to why G2 should have contempt and hate for his sister: search me.
I feel like with siblings, you don't necessarily need a reason? Sometimes someone just rubs you the wrong way, and with family, it's harder to resort to indifference. Actually, biologist Robert Sapolsky, who studies baboons in the wild, says that there are interpersonal (interbaboonal?) interactions that strike fellow baboons as weird--unless it's between two family members, and then they shrug it off.
I mean, clearly there's *some* kind of reason, and we may come across it, but it doesn't necessarily have to have been significant enough to be obvious to outsiders.
(Provided most circumstances stay the same.) Would Fritz of Prussia have had the fatal relationship and fallout with Hervey instead of Fritz of Wales?
Hmm. If we assume Fritz of Prussia stays in England until FW dies in 1740, instead of Amelia going to Prussia or both of them going to Hannover (maybe a successful esape to England?), then maybe. Only they fight over Algarotti instead of Anne Vane. :P
Algarotti: Guys, there's plenty of me to go around!
Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine, too, of faking her pregnancy because their oldest surely can't sire a child?
Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine and Fritz of Prussia of incest? It would have explained so much: how Wilhelmine got pregnant, why Fritz was present at the birth, why Fritz carried on the paternal tradition of beating up your first cousin rather than allow Wilhelmine to be moved... (Fritz of Prussia may not be much physically, but I say killer instinct and motivation count for a lot. Look at FW!)
Actually, let's assume Fritz of Prussia, living at close range with his sister's husband, doesn't really get along with Fritz of Wales. Let's further assume that G2 (plus Parliament, I guess) would have had to be pretty strongly pro-Fritz-of-Prussia to let a double marriage happen with Fritz living at the English court. (Husbands don't usually join their wives, especially when they are the heir to a throne. I have to assume successful escape, unless you have a better scenario.)
Also, G2 hates FW, something that Fritz can get behind.
So, G2-Fritz of Prussia alliance? [ETA: Until FW is dead and Fritz doesn't need him anymore, obviously.] This might affect the Wilhelmine treatment. Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
Ah, the eternal soap opera!
Edited 2020-09-22 01:44 (UTC)
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
I'm on vacation, she says. I won't be able to do write-ups, she says. :D
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
THIS :DDDDD
Hervey is the British Lehndorff counterpart in another way: our source for all these anecdotes we know!
:D
Only they fight over Algarotti instead of Anne Vane. :P
Ha! I... cannot argue with this.
So, G2-Fritz of Prussia alliance? [ETA: Until FW is dead and Fritz doesn't need him anymore, obviously.] This might affect the Wilhelmine treatment. Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
*facepalm* This would totally happen, wouldn't it.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
*facepalm* This would totally happen, wouldn't it.
I don't know if it *would* have, but I definitely like imagining it.
"My sister is not getting in a carriage while she's in labor, FIGHT ME."
Also, Fritz *would* be present at the birth.
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
THIS :DDDDD
I was putting the Palladion write-up in Rheinsberg last night, and I noticed it was written in late April, a couple days after the "real life is taking over, can't perform Royal Reader duties." My reply to the write-up opened with, "I should have guessed that 'don't have time for Royal Reader duties' would amount to "still reading and reporting faster than we can keep up with." ;)" and your reply was "I know, I can't keep up! :)".
:D
We're so spoiled. <3
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
did they know it was a bowel - I suspect as well they originally thought it was a growth.
Hmmm. Reading between the lines, does this mean Melusine (lover of G1 and possibly therefore not a fan of G2?) and Fritz of Wales were on good terms?
You know, I think that's very likely. Because while Fritz of Wales didn't see his parents and siblings for fourteen years, he did see his grandfather G1 whenever G1 was visiting Hannover during his reign, and Melusine was with him on those occasions. Also, Horace Walpole son of Sir Robert Walpole (G2's PM for years and years) claims that Melusine was tight with the opposition to his Dad, who was also a political enemy of FoW's (the more so the more Fritz of Wales drifted towards said opposition).
G2 having contempt and hate for his sister SD: starting Horace Walpole's memoir, I am stunned to discover HW claims that SD, daughter of G1, was "a staunch Jacobite" all her life. Now, this is the first time I've come across this claim - certainly no biographer and memoirist we've come across so far on the German side claims that, and it makes absolutely no sense in terms of SD's most dear ambition (her daughter as Queen of England, Fritz married to a Hannover-British princess and preferably governing Hannover). So I feel safe to say it's not true. However, I'm perfectly willing to believe Horace W. heard it from his primary source of G2 stories, to wit, G2's official English mistress Lady Suffolk. (Who was increasingly deaf, btw.) and didn't question it further, because HW, of a generation later than Hervey, lived until 1791 and when writing his memoir has already outlived Fritz of Prussia (whom he refers to as the late great King of Prussia). Meaning: he probably knew about Fritz favoring the Scottish Keiths, who actually were Jacobites, and the story of sending George Keith as ambassador to Versailles despite the insult to uncle G2. Maybe when that happened G2 said something like "typical! I bet his mother put him up to it!" and thus the English court, unfamiliar with SD as a person for the most part, drew this "aha! SD the Jacobite!" conclusion.
Algarotti: might reconsider Lady Mary as an option, because Hervey vs Fritz of Prussia is bound to get way uglier than his rl triangle. Or maybe he elopes with Andrew Mitchell. :)
Your scenario: sounds very likely except for one thing: what does Fritz of Prussia do the first time G2 disses the Best of All Mothers in his presence?
Edited 2020-09-22 20:47 (UTC)
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Meaning: he probably knew about Fritz favoring the Scottish Keiths, who actually were Jacobites, and the story of sending George Keith as ambassador to Versailles despite the insult to uncle G2. Maybe when that happened G2 said something like "typical! I bet his mother put him up to it!" and thus the English court, unfamiliar with SD as a person for the most part, drew this "aha! SD the Jacobite!" conclusion.
Yeah, this strikes me as being akin to Thiébault claiming FW totally wanted one son to be HRE and the other King in Prussia! It makes perfect sense if you don't know just how relentlessly committed FW was to his religious beliefs.
Speaking of SD's politics, I keep seeing in places like Ziebura and Oster that she was disappointed that Fritz didn't let her influence him politically. Is there evidence for this, or just an assumption?
Algarotti: might reconsider Lady Mary as an option, because Hervey vs Fritz of Prussia is bound to get way uglier than his rl triangle. Or maybe he elopes with Andrew Mitchell. :)
Ha. I advise eloping. The farther the better.
Lady Mary: Will go to Japan as long as you're coming too!
what does Fritz of Prussia do the first time G2 disses the Best of All Mothers in his presence?
I did think of that when I was writing that up, and I'm not sure. Part of it depends on what G2 says, and how G2 responds when Fritz starts defending her, and I just don't know.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Speaking of SD's politics, I keep seeing in places like Ziebura and Oster that she was disappointed that Fritz didn't let her influence him politically. Is there evidence for this, or just an assumption?
I've seen this, too, starting with good old Preuß and Koser, but never with a footnote saying "see letter X" or "memoirs y", or "ambassadorial report Z". So until I see a citation, I'm going with "assumption", based on the fact that SD had these political battles with FW for all those years and, I suspect, also a very 19th century moralistic desire to see her punished in some fashion. "She got what she wanted, only to find out her son wasn't her puppet at all but his father's worthy successor and our national hero!", that kind of thing. (Because SD is the outright villain in Der Vater, that's certainly how this novel plays it.) But, you know, I never had the impression SD cared about Prussian politics as such, other than "English marriages for my kids, Grumbkow & Seckendorff defeated". The marriages were none-issues by the time Fritz became King, Grumbkow was dead, and Seckendorff far away, and Fritz made it very clear that SD, not EC was the first lady of Prussia, so my impression was she revelled in this and was otherwise an admiring mother (to Fritz) applauding his mighty deeds, bossy only when it came to his wardrobe.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Her doctors should have pushed that loop of bowel back inside and hoped that the hole would heal, but instead they made a terrible error. They cut it off. Now Caroline’s digestive system was destroyed, and she took ten days to die.
EEK. Ow ow ow. That... is not a way I'd like to die. (I mean, I suppose there aren't really good ways to die, but this seems like a particularly bad one.) Exhibit seventeen thousand or so on Why I Am Glad I Don't Live Then.
Wikipedia: "Over the next few days she was bled, purged, and operated on, without anaesthetic, but there was no improvement in her condition." Uh-huh.
"My dear Lord," replied the Queen, ' " I will give it you under my hand, if you are in any fear of my relapsing, that my dear first-born is the greatest ass and the greatest liar, and the greatest canaille, and the greatest beast in the whole world, and I that I most heartily wish he was out of it."
Maaaaan :( IDK, someone here is really awful. Not sure whether it's Hervey or Caroline or both, but... yeah.
In the first place, I am sick to death of hearing of his great courage every day of my life ; in the next place, one thinks now of Mama, and not of him.
Ahahahaha this... makes me like Princess Emily more rather than less :P I vote this Princess Emily and Princess Amalie of Prussia should get together!
I'm almost starting to come around to Fritz' pov on Hannover versus Hohenzollern, but luckily your Ziebura read through reminds me this would be wrong.
LOL
What he thought and said of the King of Prussia was much the same as what the King of Prussia thought and said of him ; that he was a proud, brutal, tyrannical, wrong-headed, impracticable fellow, who loved nobody and would use everybody ill that was in his power. How far these two Kings were in the right in this point, or how little they were so in every other, is not my business here to determine.
HAHAHAHA okay, Hervey, you get points for this, this is hilarious.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Every time someone thinks that just because history is a passion of mine, I'd want to live in the past (any past), I can only conclude that someone knows nothing of history, verily.
Maaaaan :( IDK, someone here is really awful. Not sure whether it's Hervey or Caroline or both, but... yeah.
Granted, Caroline's mother totally neglected her so she had to learn how to read and write by herself when she was 10 until Sophie Charlotte got a hold on her, and Hervey's mother did a turnaround from "my favourite child" to "you scum of the Earth" which his biographer can't explain other than note it starts with his marriage, so the constant "Fritz of Wales is worse than Tiberius and Nero put together and I wish he was dead" outbursts coupled with "that ungrateful beast, I'm sure he wants me dead, how monstrous is that?" happen with that emotional background. (Plus Hervey quotes her as saying, which I included already in my write up of the Halsband biography, that she wishes Hervey was her son and that evil FoW had Hervey's horrible mother; the writers of the "Hephaistion and Alexander: Hervey and FoW" essay think all the constant harping on Hervey as the alternate son is stretching things a bit, since he was only 13 years younger than Caroline. But imo it's still possible that they fulfilled that emotional need for each other, and it's noticable that Caroline's actual other son and fave, future Billy the Butcher, Duke of Cumberland, gets next to no page time in these memoirs. He's at her death bed in one scene and gets told he's her sole hope for the British future, and there's just one mention elsewhere when both Hervey and the editor in footnotes discuss the periodically raised and abandoned idea of splitting Hannover and Great Britain up again so Billy the Butcher can inherit one of the two. But that's it. Methinks whatever is true of Caroline, I wouldn't be surprised if Hervey did come to see her as a replacement mother and that this provided him with additoinal ire fuel against Fritz of Wales. (Cumberland he couldn't rationally object to since he hadn't done anything at that point when Hervey writes, so he just edits him out as much as he can.)
Mind you, courtesy of Victorian editor Croker's footnotes, I got reminded again that G2 and Caroline for the first time considered the Britain/Hannover split when FoW really hadn't done anything yet they could object to but lived his parentless life in Hannover. They really wanted English born Bill for King, and if that was absolutely impossible, then they wanted him to have Hannover. So by the time Fritz of Wales rejoined the family in Britain as an adult, he already knew his parents very much prefered the younger brother he didn't even know. Incidentally, the reason why G2 and Caroline eventually didn't go through with this idea is one Hervey has himself pointing out to them - the Elector of Hannover is a prince of the HRE, which means the succession can only be altered with the Emperor's consent as well as the consent of the two princes in question (remember, this came up as to why FW couldn't change the succession without Fritz agreeing to it), and, speculates Hervey, the Emperor won't want to, because as long as the King of GB is also the Elector of Hannover, it means that Britain as a state is beholden to him.
(Sidenote: could be that MT's Dad was thinking that, but as we know, it didn't work out that way once G2's government teamed up with Fritz in 1756...)
I vote this Princess Emily and Princess Amalie of Prussia should get together!
They certainly would have had things in common. When reading this passage, I also rolled my eyes at Hervey none too subtly complaining he'd had to play the perfect courtier for G2 despite being worn out and exhausted from attending Caroline, yet otoh writing the story to demonstrate Emily's "falseness" towards her father. Of course, Emily isn't saying this to G2's face, any more than Amalie would say something like this to Fritz, for all her famous bluntness. You don't do that towards the person who has the power to lock you up in a heartbeat, or at the very least deprive you of income and all creature comforts.
Hervey on G2 and FW really was a goldmine of quotable lines. Never mind Zeithain and FW meeting August(us) the Strong, the summit we want to see is FW and G2 as adults clashing as a spectacle to all and sunder.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Methinks whatever is true of Caroline, I wouldn't be surprised if Hervey did come to see her as a replacement mother and that this provided him with additoinal ire fuel against Fritz of Wales.
*nods* That makes sense.
(Cumberland he couldn't rationally object to since he hadn't done anything at that point when Hervey writes, so he just edits him out as much as he can.)
Hee! Yeah, that makes sense too.
But, right, also given the circumstances I can see G2 and Caroline not really having parental feelings for Fritz of Wales, and not really seeing him as a kid of theirs, so any insults, etc. maybe didn't really register to them as all that bad (and then, as you pointed out earlier, there's the part where Caroline didn't exactly have good role models to begin with).
I also rolled my eyes at Hervey none too subtly complaining he'd had to play the perfect courtier for G2 despite being worn out and exhausted from attending Caroline, yet otoh writing the story to demonstrate Emily's "falseness" towards her father.
Ha! I didn't quite get there (I mostly just thought she had a point, lol) so I'm glad you pointed that out :)
I haven't even made a draft of the promo post(s)! *facepalm* I'll see whether I can get around to that tonight... I'll try to nominate tonight as well but it might be later on in the week, though I'll of course comment once I've made my nominations, here and at the nomination coordination post.
Mes amies, new problem: I jiust woke up to see Morbane is okay with the Eurpean Enlightenment Fandom per se,but not with thei title and wants it narrowed down as the current title „covers an extreme swathe of geography and time“.
So, seeing as the characters we nominated, except for Algarotti, are French and English, what do you say to „Franco-British Enlightenment“? „French.Enlightenment“ won‘t cover Lady Mary and Hervey, and I do want the title to reflect it‘s more than France as a location.
ETA: Hang on, we could narrow it down by profession: How about "European Scientists and Writers of the Enlightenment RPF"? (With Mme de Pompadour and Richelieu qualifying as patrons of same.)
Oh! I quite like "European scientists and writers." (I suppose that if we HAD to we could even just say "writers" or maybe "authors," since Emilie and Algarotti also wrote books... but that might be pushing it.)
I like it better than Franco-British, as I would love for it to be open to scientists/writers of other countries, like say Euler! :D
Last year deathsblood nominated and requested Poniatowski, which at the time none of us were equipped to write. This year you have read his memoirs and summarized them for us, and I could probably read them too if necessary.
I'd like to mention to them that we'd be more equipped this year to write something if they nominated Poniatowski again (they seem to request him pretty consistently), but I don't want to do this if there's no chance that anyone will write anything. (I think this mainly means selenak, since you've read the memoirs and you write quickly -- I should be able to read them, but the chance I can write anything in a historical fandom this year is kind of small given my time constraints and slow writing speed, but I could maybe pull off something short if I had substantial beta help :) And I guess the good thing about me writing something is that I would be less stressed about getting everything historically correct since I don't know what the correct things are :PP ) I do want to strongly encourage other people to hang out in our fandom, though! :D
(I would also read the heck out of a Poniatowski fic, he is hilarious!)
I feel up to Poniatowski as a supporting character, though not necessarily as a main character. Mind you, that may change! (BTW, Mildred, he has a chapter of his own in Horowitz, titled "Poniatowski keeps his locks".) In any event, deathsblood should nominate him, by all means.
OK! Maybe I won't say anything specifically to deathsblood -- but they will be able to see it in the nomination spreadsheet, and they'll also know we're nominating Catherine. :)
BTW, Mildred, he has a chapter of his own in Horowitz, titled "Poniatowski keeps his locks"
Oh, good! Horowski (at least in part--I'm not committing to reading cover-to-cover) is on my list, either after or concurrently with Lehndorff (who in turns comes after the remaining Wilhelmine material and the very short Krockow volume on Heinrich and Fritz).
I spent all my free time today reading German, after not reading much in the past few days. and got through the first 52 pages! That's up through "A conflict is looming." Definitely easier reading than the Wilhelmine memoirs. I'm thinking of reading this book first, then picking up volume 2 of the memoirs.
No comments tonight, as it's my bedtime, and also cahn could use some time to catch up. ;)
Good luck with the Enlightenment nominations, guys! Sorry I'm not more help, but, you know, German and sleep. #priorities But I'm following the developments and silently cheering you on.
50 pages of Oster again, hoping to leave comments and update the chronology this weekend.
(What's more impressive is that I read those 50 pages between 4:30 and 9 pm, meaning much faster than ever before. I could have done more, but I didn't want to burn out.)
Wilhelmine and SD are at the ball and have just learned that Fritz tried to escape.
Awesome! I am pacing you (didn't quite get to that point but will easily reach it tomorrow). I'm finding this much easier than Ziebura; I think it's meant for a somewhat less academic audience :) So I'm glad that you poked me into reading it!
(I also think the syntax is easier; I am still not really trying to read it, especially since I can't keep up with you if I even try to pick out bits, but I do feel like I can pick out more bits than I could in Ziebura.)
I'm also very interested in when you tell me which authors are easier than other authors; it's very hard for me to tell, because there are so many confounding variables, like my rapidly improving German, and the extent to which I already know the material. (Not having to parse the syntax and untangle the pronouns because I already know who did what to whom is huge.)
I'm hoping that reading Oster makes volume 2 of Wilhelmine's memoirs easier, which is why I decided to do it first. My entire approach to German is trying to make future reading easier, which is why the ordering of reading material is important, and why I'm starting with things you're interested in co-reading rather than the things that are Katte related highest on my own list. :)
Speaking of which, are you interested in doing MT together, after Lehndorff? If so, I should probably order it now, to give it time to arrive (since the Kindle version isn't available in the US, grrr) and me to format ONE THOUSAND pages. Looks like the cheapest copy (which I can cover) would be coming from the UK.
Heh, the Wilhelmine is definitely also easier because I know much of the material already, but yeah, I can tell that in addition the English is just easier to read and that it's pitched to a less already-knowledgeable audience (me!) :)
Speaking of which, are you interested in doing MT together, after Lehndorff? If so, I should probably order it now, to give it time to arrive (since the Kindle version isn't available in the US, grrr) and me to format ONE THOUSAND pages.
Yes pleeeeease! OMG I forgot that because I have a translator now, I don't have to wait for the translation (which I just checked and is still in translator limbo). Yay!
Yes pleeeeease! OMG I forgot that because I have a translator now, I don't have to wait for the translation (which I just checked and is still in translator limbo). Yay!
Oh, goody! I wasn't sure if me going, "read this thing with me!" "and also this other thing!" all the time at you ;) meant that you had too much on your plate now and weren't up for MT any more.
Because you were the one who said you might be interested in reading it together, back in June when we were plotting out our reading group. You said there wasn't much nonfic you were interested in reading in German, and then said you would be interested in MT. But then I proposed Lehndorff and got you to read Oster with me, and I didn't hear any more about MT, so I wasn't sure. But I kept it on my mental list, because I need a lot of German practice before I'm ready to start tackling things that I can't readily put through Google translate.
Ordered! Should arrive sometime in October. We'll probably end up doing it during Yuletide, but we can always go slowly, and I have Horowski to keep me in practice for German.
Also, I need to figure out just how bad a job Google OCR does at blackletter font, because I'm sure you'd like to read volume 2 of Lehndorff someday, maybe after Yuletide at this rate, and unlike volume 1, it hasn't been reprinted in modern font.
Currently we're at "Circle of Voltaire RPF", though I still think it's silly that past Yuletides in the last two years signed off on "19th Century German Literature RPF" (which in theory would have encompassed anyone from E.T.A. Hoffmann to Thomas Mann, who did start to publish before the century ended), and "19th Century British Writers RPF" (ditto, and did include Charles Dickens and Lewis Carroll as well as Byron and the Shelleys), i.e. an enormous amount of time, and a cast of thousands who don't have anything in common but geography, but "Enlightenment Writers and Scientists" is too broad. Ah well.
Hmph! Yeah, I agree with you :D But Circle of Voltaire will work for our purposes... and seems like the natural title, especially given the nomination of Madame Denis :)
Kind of a moot point now, but would "Natural Philosophers" have fit the bill? I suppose Hervey not so much, but you might be able to make a slant case for Lady Mary given the inoculation stuff... But Circle of Voltaire is nice because we don't have to make a case for every single character being a natural philosopher, which I think we could do but would get tiresome.
...and now that I've read your defense, I think I should just co-opt that for the promo post! Because I think that should get anyone interested in this set of characters :)
I will, and I also want to complete my Hervey trilogy (the Halsband biography and his memoirs being the first wo installments) with the write-up of the excellent Hephaistion essay about him and Fritz of Wales. However, writing up my paperback copy of Lady Mary's Embassy Letters which I'd taken with me on vacation came first, as I hope to interest people in her might get someone (other than us) to sign on in time, hence me posting the write up at my journal.
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Yes, absolutely on board with trying to get other people interested! You probably saw I linked to your writeup in my promo post as well :) (And I'm going to comment on it too, I just haven't gotten around to it -- what with all the Yuletide stuff I'm terribly behind on commenting again :) )
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
I can do the LH writeup: I was going to do it when I was on my big Rheinsberg kick recently, but large chunks of new material kept coming in, so I thought I'd hold off a bit. ;)
[ETA: I just went to add the embassy letters to my Trello list of things to add to Rheinsberg, and the only item still there was "Hervey memoirs". See? It really is on my list!]
ETA: I just want to say how AWESOME rheinsberg is. It's pretty amazing to have a central repository of all this stuff that I can just point people at!
IKR? And let's be real, saying rheinsberg is awesome is just another way of saying selenak is AWESOME. *bows*
Edited 2020-09-26 15:36 (UTC)
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Do you want to take the embassy letters too, or should I leave that on my list?
Speaking of letters, LM's 3-volume set of complete letters is arriving in a few days, though of course I neither expect you to read them cover-to-cover, nor is there any deadline. I mostly want them as a reference work, and also I'd like to dip into them sometime myself (probably when German settles down and I can read English without feeling like I'm in danger of losing my German). When I checked them out to scan the Algarotti letters last year, I flipped through and thought she seemed very engaging and having been wanting to spend some time with her ever since. :)
Hervey is up at Rheinsberg. Re:Embassy letters, since that review can go there unchanged, I‘d be glad if you just transferred it, but wait a day or so more.
Tomorrow is our last day on vacation, with one more hiking to be done, and on Monday we return to Bamberg, so that means even less online time for yours truly!
I still think it's silly that past Yuletides in the last two years signed off on "19th Century German Literature RPF" (which in theory would have encompassed anyone from E.T.A. Hoffmann to Thomas Mann, who did start to publish before the century ended), and "19th Century British Writers RPF" (ditto, and did include Charles Dickens and Lewis Carroll as well as Byron and the Shelleys), i.e. an enormous amount of time, and a cast of thousands who don't have anything in common but geography, but "Enlightenment Writers and Scientists" is too broad.
I'm not going to pick a fight in the Yuletide admin community, but let's not forget "Historical Royals and Their Favourites RPF", which the mods and a couple of us, myself included, arrived at after much discussion, for which the nominated characters included Alexander the Great (4th century BCE Macedon) and James VI and I (17th century CE Great Britain). 2000 years and an entire continent, and we went with a gender-neutral "royals" specifically to make sure women like Anne could get included if needed. I mean, we could have included Catherine and Poniatowksi for 18th century Russia! Gilgamesh and Enkidu, probably. :P
But all right, Circle of Voltaire it is. :D
Algarotti: *I'm* the one who's six degrees from everyone who even slightly overlaps the 1700-1799 period! Voltaire: Nobody knows who you are. Even in the salon, nobody had heard of you before last year. Algarotti: :(
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Incidentally, I suck at spreadsheet filling - could you add both our Frederician and our Voltaire lot to the confirmed nominations, oh mighty tabulator?
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Happy to, if you point me to the right place. I'm not seeing a post in YT or YT-admin about a different spreadsheet, and I'm not seeing either a column or a sheet in the existing spreadsheet to indicate what's been approved. Help?
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
I would have done it myself but I guess you have to ask the administrator for edit access and I have to get back on the VPN before school ends... But if you don't do it by tonight I can do it.
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Thanks! I figured Selena had gone to bed and you would see this and pop in with an answer. :) I've requested edit access and will let you know if I'm successful before tonight.
ETA: Still no edit access, alas. You're on your own!
Edited 2020-10-06 03:13 (UTC)
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
OK, it looks like spreadsheeter is asleep; when they wake up, and if they are giving out access, I would expect them to give you edit access then --
-- now, I'm not totally sure whether the spreadsheet editor is letting other random people edit (which is... probably wise). If you haven't got access by the time you wake up, then I expect it's not happening and one or more of us can report in an FFA or coaltide thread. Though honestly, I think it's OK if we don't report it -- we'll get the whole tagset in a few days!
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
* Oster confirms that Fritz's only baptismal name was Friedrich. Der Einzige! "This name has been luck-bringing to my house. Hopefully this baby is as fortunate/happy as his ancestors."
Oster: Well, Fritz won't be *happy*, exactly...
Me: :-(
* So remember when we discussed how Wilhelmine resented her first two brothers (named Fritz) and our Fritz was the first one she showed affection to? And cahn, the only one of us with parental experience ;), says that 2 1/2 years is about right for a kid to start thinking babies are cute?
Well, Oster reports the following:
1707, November 23, 1707: Bb!Fritz1 born. Barely six months later: Bb!Fritz1 dies. The internet gives me May 13, 1708. 1709, July 3: Wilhelmine born. 1710, August 16: Bb!Fritz2 born. 1711, July 31: Bb!Fritz2 dies. 1712, January 24: Bb!Fritz3 born. 1712, February 8: Grandpa F1 writes in a letter, "sie ihre zwei ersten Brüder nicht leiden konnte"--she couldn't stand her first two brothers.
What's wrong with this picture?
The first of the two brothers in question died before she was born!
What's up with that, F1? I can believe that she didn't like the one that was born when she was one and died when she was two, especially since he got all the attention that she didn't, but she's being falsely accused of things that happened before she was born!
I wonder if F1's having a memory lapse here, or if something else is going on.
* The bit about FW being impressed by Dutch burgher values, like cleanliness and orderliness, is relevant to why the servant book I read is specifically about servants in *France* during the period. The author makes the point that French upper class values were about conspicuous consumption, so servants did a lot of standing around in livery looking handsome and making you look wealthy, and very little attention in "how to run your household" manuals was devoted to things like making sure servants dusted and kept the fire going. So there was gold and marble and filth everywhere, and the living space was uncomfortable to live in but very eye-catching. French travelers who went to England or the Netherlands were amazed at how clean and comfortable the houses were, and the servants were actually supposed to take scrubbing the floors and such seriously.
* Heinrich Rüdiger von Ilgen: I'm recognizing more and more obscure names! This is the father of Baroness von Knyphausen, Ariane's mother, who receives that box from Fritz in the opening scene of "Lovers lying two and two."
Knyphausen, the minister who's pro-English marriage and eventually loses his job over it, is, as I said in the Wilhelmine memoir write-up recently, Ariane's father.
* Google wasn't able to translate "Knirps", as in "König Knirps", Wilhelmine and Fritz's not-so-respectful nickname for Dad, but when I put it in the browser, I got "midget, squirt, little fellow." Lol! The little fellow and his long fellows.
* Loved Oster pointing out what I had noticed when rereading the memoirs: evil governess Leti's introduction was all about how she was Italian, from no family to speak of, and had an unprestigious job correcting newspaper prints, whereas wonderful Sonsine's introduction is all about how noble her family was and how her ancestors distinguished themselves with all the services they performed. !!!
Lehndorff, who's not exactly not a snob himself: This Wilhelmine is a bit hung up on class.
This is why I put in two of the things that selenak noticed in "With You, There's a Heaven": Wilhelmine not seeing Fredersdorf as a person but as an extension of her brother, and Fritz being afraid to admit that he's falling in love with a commoner. I threw in the line about Fritz remembering Wilhelmine accusing "even a von Katte" of not knowing his place, with the intention of conveying that this isn't her real (or at least her biggest) objection, but it's one she can admit to, unlike "But what about meeeee?!", and that Wilhelmine (along with SD, and society in general), was a formative influence on Fritz and his own classism.
Also, the servants book has a good section on the tension between servants and families that resulted in the cycle of abuse: badly treated servants were more likely to treat their masters' children badly. Including: total neglect, meaning wealthy kids were sometimes half-starved; sexual abuse: the older men in the house molest the maidservants, who molest the boys, who grow up with a fucked up attitude toward sex and proceed to molest their own servants.
As the century went on and middle-class family-and-home values started to percolate upwards in France, the thrust of moralizing works directed at servants charged with caring for children went in a little over a hundred years from "You are responsible before God for every child who dies as a result of your action or inaction," to, "It's probably not healthy to give kids everything they want all the time. Tell them no once in a while?"
* Oster doesn't think FW's kids went hungry, because Seckendorff didn't report inadequate portions. He thinks FW's tastes in food weren't to the liking of SD, who taught her kids to despise it. While I'm absolutely sure this happened, I'm not convinced the kids never went hungry, or that they didn't learn to associate it with their father.
Fritz's weight at Dresden, combined with his height, tell me he wasn't underweight at 16. But even if FW was starving the kids every chance he got (and I suspect it was more like small portion sizes than actual starvation), SD was apparently smuggling them food (I think this was in Lavisse?) *and* FW was away a lot. So it's quite possible that FW was frugal in terms of portion sizes and the kids got compensation later.
But that's not evidence that he *was*, just that he could have been.
The two additional pieces of evidence I have beyond Wilhelmine's memoirs are these:
Fritz writing a letter to Grumbkow (?) at Küstrin, saying he preferred to starve there than at Potsdam. Now, this is not when he's being his most fair to FW, and could be part of the SD "this is not acceptable food" rhetoric, but...
Ziebura says *AW* later said he and the other kids were often half-starved as kids. If Wilhelmine, Fritz, *and* AW all agree on something about FW...maybe they're not making it up. Now, I haven't seen the context, or even a direct quote, for that claim, but I'm keeping it as supporting evidence until I do.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
What's up with that, F1? I can believe that she didn't like the one that was born when she was one and died when she was two, especially since he got all the attention that she didn't, but she's being falsely accused of things that happened before she was born!
I wonder if F1's having a memory lapse here, or if something else is going on.
It probably was a memory lapse. My other guess would be projection, but projection of what? The baby Sophie Charlotte had before FW, one Friedrich August, died before FW was born, and she never had any more children. As for F1's own childhood, he was son no.3 himself, with two brothers ahead of him, one of whom died before F1 was born. (The other - Karl Emil! - was one of those he later suspected his stepmother of killing, along with his younger brother Ludwig. Two more (fullL) siblings died as babies. Then came stepmom and all the Schwedt half siblings.
"Knirps" is a bit old fashioned but still in use today, though mostly used for little children.
Wilhelmine the snob: oh, absolutely. Mind you, I suspect this tendency in her was strengthened via the awareness the Hohenzollern were considered as upstarts (what with the very recent kingly title) by the rest of Europe, and of course SD had it drummed into her that she was meant for higher things and FW was completely undignified and no one was to follow his example from the get go. I could also see child Wilhelmine extra internalizing class bias precisely because of Leti, i.e. this woman had been given power over her and abused her, and she clung to her self confidence by telling herself "I'm still better than you, Italian lowlife!"
Which, btw, leads into what you say about servants and the chains of abuse and neglect. Governesses also had this weird in between status - not really part of the servants, but also not really on a level with the family that gets talked about a lot in any book about the Brontes. Presumably Leti had had her own experiences, too. (And as Oster points out at the very least must have been well educated, because she did give Wilhelmine a first class education in terms of knowledge, see also the difference between child Wilhemine's letters to child AW's letters to FW in style and maturity.)
I'm also reminded that Byron (the poet) was sexually abused by a nurse when he was ten or eleven. She was also a strict Calvinist who altered between punishing him, groping him and quoting the bible at him. It's not surprising adult Byron didn't care much for religion, and scandalized the country.
Food question: I'm with you there.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Yeah, since F1 isn't exactly taking care of tiny babies, he probably remembers that Wilhelmine didn't like Bb!Fritz2, and of course the number 2 was burned into his brain, as in the number of prospective heirs that have died, and he conflated the two.
I'm just impressed that within the space of about a page, Oster manages to report all these dates and quote this letter and never notice the contradiction!
Wilhelmine the snob: oh, absolutely. Mind you, I suspect this tendency in her was strengthened via the awareness the Hohenzollern were considered as upstarts
Yep. I forget which biographer said FW's attitude toward all things German vs. French smacks of an inferiority complex, but it makes perfect sense.
I could also see child Wilhelmine extra internalizing class bias precisely because of Leti, i.e. this woman had been given power over her and abused her, and she clung to her self confidence by telling herself "I'm still better than you, Italian lowlife!"
Also makes perfect sense!
Governesses also had this weird in between status - not really part of the servants, but also not really on a level with the family that gets talked about a lot in any book about the Brontes.
Yep, I was thinking of the Brontes. Even today, my wife talks about the class tensions of being middle to upper middle class and being raised largely by poor nannies in Brazil, where labor is still that cheap. When you tell the kids what to do and can punish them, but they're still considered inherently superior to you, and their parents control your life...it can get complicated.
I'm glad Sonsine worked out.
Though after reading the memoirs, I had forgotten just how pro-English marriage Wilhelmine depicts her as being, to the point of scolding Wilhelmine for finally giving in and agreeing to marry into Bayreuth. :/
She was also a strict Calvinist who altered between punishing him, groping him and quoting the bible at him. It's not surprising adult Byron didn't care much for religion, and scandalized the country.
Indeed. Also, *facepalm*.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Mind you, the flipside of that is what a relation of one of Charlotte's charges said to Mrs. Gaskell: My cousin Benson Sidgwick, now vicar of Ashby Parva, certainly on one occasion threw a Bible at Miss Bronte! and all that another cousin can recollect of her is that if she was invited to walk to church with them, she thought she was being ordered about like a slave; if she was not invited, she imagined she was excluded from the family circle.
Sonsine being pro English marriage: well, to be fair, of all the matches available at that time, it was definitely the toppermost of the poppermost. The only comparable match would have been to Louis XV. of France, and good old Stanislav Lescynsky got there first. (P)RussianPete was still HolsteinPete in blissful ignorance of his future and also years younger, even Ulrike's future husband was still HolsteinAdolf and not yet Crown Prince of Sweden, and since the Polish crown wasn't inheritable but went by vote, there was no guarantee August the Strong's son - who'd have matched Wilhelmine's age far better than August - would have succeeded him as King of Poland as well as Elector of Saxony. If you were a Princess of Wilhelmine's age and generation, the future King of England (not that he'd ever be, but no one knew that) was the big marital price to be had. Especially if your own father was only the second king of his line and his tiny kingdom brandnew.
...whereas all the Margraves FW considered as matches for his daughters meant they were marrying down. Within FW's life time, Charlotte did best with a duke (of Braunschweig), lending some strength to the argument that among the daughters, she was his fave, but Wilhelmine, Friederike and Sophie really were not making good matches in terms of rank, power and splendor.
Byron: see my reply to Cahn below.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Sonsine being pro English marriage: well, to be fair, of all the matches available at that time, it was definitely the toppermost of the poppermost.
Oh, no question! And advocating for this as the marriage Wilhelmine should make is one thing. But after she's already agreed to marry into Bayreuth through the application of force majeure by the absolute monarch, scolding her that she did a bad thing tells you something about Sonsine's priorities. That's the part that came as a surprise to me.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Yeeeeah. We had a couple of nannies for the kids when we needed childcare but they were too young to go to preschool, and it was... interesting, because of this tension. The whole experience taught me, looking back on it, that for a weird job like this where you're all but living with the family, personality fit (and maybe even more specifically, communication style??) with parents is way more important a component than one might realize (or at least than I realized), and a nanny can be great with the kids and yet both adult parties can be unhappy through no fault (or at least, not much fault) of the individual parties.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Governesses also had this weird in between status - not really part of the servants, but also not really on a level with the family that gets talked about a lot in any book about the Brontes.
Huh, I hadn't thought to make that connection, but having just read Dark Quartet, ...yeah.
I'm also reminded that Byron (the poet) was sexually abused by a nurse when he was ten or eleven. She was also a strict Calvinist who altered between punishing him, groping him and quoting the bible at him. It's not surprising adult Byron didn't care much for religion, and scandalized the country.
*blinks* My Brit Lit teacher didn't tell us that part! That's really... something. Definitely not surprising he didn't care much for religion, wow.
Re: Byron, here's the evidence, re the nurse May Grey. (Btw, google tells me that an entry on Byron by a Scottish tourist website - since Byron spent his early childhood in Aberdeen- calls her "Agnes Grey", which, speak of the Brontes. But really, it was May.) John Hanson had already been the lawyer of Byron's mother, and later was Byron's lawyer. Since Byron died at age 36, he survived him.
After Byron's death, the lawyer, John Hanson, informed Byron's friend John Cam Hobhouse, of the lustful attentions of his (Byron's) nurse. Hobhouse writes later:
When nine years old at his mother's house a free Scotch girl used to come to bed to him and play tricks with his person.
And Byron himself writes in Detached Thoughts (a serious of diary-like notes published years after his death under that title): in 1821: My passions were developed very early - so early, that few would believe me, if I were to state the period, and the facts which accompanied it.
John Hanson informed Byron's mother of May Gray's unacceptable conduct towards the young lord in a letter dated 1st September 1799, suppressing his knowledge of the sexual play:
... her conduct towards your son while at Nottingham was shocking, and I was persuaded you needed but a hint of it to dismiss her... My honourable little companion (Byron) ... told me that she was perpetually beating him, and that his bones sometimes ached from it; that she brought all sorts of Company of the very lowest Description into his apartments; that she was out late at nights, and he was frequently left to put himself to bed; that she would take the Chaise-boys into the Chaise with her, and stopped at every little Ale-house to drink with them. But, Madam, this is not all, she has even --- traduced yourself. (Prothero, Rowland E (ed), The Works of Lord Byron, Letters and Journals, Vol I, p 17)
The two parter about Byron in which Johnny Lee Miller played Lord B. used this story - Byron tells it to his sister and lover Augusta (they were half siblings who didn't grow up together and only got to know each other as teenagers) in this excerpt (at 1.45) - at what is probably his most vulnerable moment in the two parter.
I can't believe we're a third of the way through this book and we're still negotiating her marriage, zomg.
* The Hannovers (Guelphs) had to make permission to visit Hannover one of their conditions for accepting the throne of GB. This is ringing a bell, but I'd forgotten that. I can see why it became a point of contention.
* In 1724/1725, the Magdeburgers brought some sort of lawsuit against FW at the Imperial Court? Do you know anything more about this, selenak?
* Lol, so we already knew Seckendorff sometimes couldn't write reports the next morning because of the insane hangover from keeping up with FW the night before, and we knew he used to suck on an empty pipe at the tobacco parliament, but it was entertaining reading Oster's write-up of how "the staunch non-smoker got permission to put an empty pipe in his mouth for form's sake," and how periodically Seckendorff had to go take the waters to recover a little from the hardcore job of being the most successful envoy at FW's court. This is why I maintain that if FW had wanted sex, Seckendorff would have done whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff.
Also, he lived to be 90, so I guess the lifestyle didn't ruin his health *too* much. :P
* Another minor character: Adrian Bernhard von Borcke is the father of FW2 educator Borcke.
* In July 1728, French Count Rottembourg says he has reason to believe Fritz will try running away. Now, my sources all say that he was recalled from Prussia in 1727 and stationed in Spain. So either he has contacts that are keeping him up to date, or Fritz was talking about running away even before that, or both.
* Speaking of running away...remember how on January 21, 1730 Peter got sent to Wesel and Fritz's governors got strict instructions to sleep with him every single night? And Koser said that the governor order was because FW feared Fritz trying to escape?
This is the first time I've seen evidence for that (as opposed to other types of nocturnal shenanigans) being the reason: on January 31, Oster says FW returns to Berlin, where all the envoys write reports expressing their surprise at how he's letting Fritz off with a mild scolding, in light of a recent anonymous letter FW received warning him that Fritz has escape plans. Proposed envoy reasons for this uncharacteristic behavior:
- This milder treatment is only apparent, not real. - FW's trying the carrot instead of the stick. - FW's trying to keep Fritz from encouraging Wilhelmine in her resistance to her prospective bridegrooms.
No dice on the last one, says Oster: Fritz is willing to suffer anything if it keeps Wilhelmine out of a miserable marriage! Oster will later quote the letter from Fritz to Wilhelmine saying, "Don't get married just to get me out of prison, I mean it."
Aaaand, Oster cites Fritz writing in 1730 to the Margrave of Schwedt that if he marries Wilhelmine, he'll "regret it sooner or later," the implication being when Fritz becomes king. This would fit well in a Mafia AU, along with "You know who we should kidnap, Heinrich?" :P
Poor younger sister Sophia Dorothea. :/
* SD trying to forestall a marriage she doesn't want by arguing that Wilhelmine's too young and will reproach her parents someday if she ends up unhappily married...that's pretty brazen, considering the quote at the beginning of the book where SD is writing about two-year-old FoW asking about his future bride, aka TWO-MONTH-OLD Wilhelmine.
* I like the way Oster analyzes "But did event X in Wilhelmine's memoirs *really* happen?" every so often I've been wondering what's backed up with documentary evidence and what isn't.
1) FW wanting to marry her to August the Strong: probably not, says Oster, no external evidence, and surely SD would freak out.
2) August the Strong trying to get Wilhelmine married to Weißenfels: definitely not, says Oster.
I was not aware that Weißenfels was a possible rival to the Saxon electorate due to religion, and that this might lie behind FW's interest in getting Wilhelmine married to him. That was interesting!
3) August letting his son decide he didn't want to marry Wilhelmine: seems unlikely, says Oster.
I mean, I'm sure there would have been pressure, but not everyone is FW? Even Wilhelmine got to turn down a couple candidates (at a high price) before accepting one under duress. I'm neutral on this point, pending further evidence...
* When Ferdinand was born and SD was bedridden, FW showed favor to Wilhelmine by letting her look after 4-yo Heinrich...who at the time was his favorite? What about AW?
Friedrich Wilhelms gute Laune ging an diesem Tag sogar so weit, daß er Wilhelmine auftrug, während Sophie Dorothea im Wochen bett lag, für ihren Bruder Heinrich zu sorgen, der damals sein Liebling war.
* Huh. So I did remember that the idea of Fritz becoming governor in Hannover until FW died was proposed as part of the marriage deal, but Oster adds that the British agreed to this, only instead of giving the governorship to Fritz, they would give it to A WOMAN Amelia!
I take back what I said long ago about this marriage going better than the EC marriage.
Fritz: Franz Stephan, I am not. I'm also an expert in marital warfare even at this tender age. Bring it on.
* Also! G2 says that due to their youth, Fritz and Amelia would live in England at first. So I'm wrong, we *don't* need a successful escape AU in order to get Fritz at the British court while G2 and Caroline are accusing Wilhelmine of faking her pregnancy and FoW is trying to get her into a carriage to St. James in the presence of the brother who's perfectly willing to threaten her prospective husbands with vague but dire future consequences.
I wouldn't wish such a fate on Wilhelmine, but wooow, can you imagine Lord Hervey recording how this went down??
* Speaking of not wishing things on Wilhelmine, Oster says Melusine expressed pity for Wilhelmine as the future wife of FoW. I suppose our speculation about her being on good terms with FoW (politically, if nothing else) wouldn't rule out realizing he's not great husband material.
cahn, remember that any time you see the Duchess of Kendal, that's Katte's "aunt" Melusine, mistress of G1.
(I still can't believe that one lecturer thought she was a fictional character inspired by a Fontane novel; my copy of Zeithain has a Personenregister listing who everyone is and their dates, and she's in there!
EHRENGARD MELUSINE VON DER SCHULENBURG, Herzogin von Kendal (ab 1719), * 25.12.1667 in Emden; † 10.5.1743 in Kendal House, Isleworth bei Brentford, Mätresse von Georg I., König von England)
* Oster trusts Catt, sigh. Thanks be that you read prefaces, selenak. Otherwise, *I* would still trust Catt!
Edited 2020-09-26 22:21 (UTC)
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
At a guess, Oster trusting Catt is your explanation for four years old Heinrich being declared FW's fave by him; Catt, remember, claims he was. Now of course I'm prepared to be wrong and to have missed something/misremember, but I don't recall that babysitting story during SD's labor from Wilhelmine's memoirs, and a quick cursory check on my kindle copy doesn't give me that story. With your recent far more thorough reading of the year 1730 in her memoirs, do you recall anything like it? So unless Oster provides a different source citation for the anecdote - say, an ambassadorial report (by Guy Dickens or Hotham the older, presumably), I'm going with my "faith in Catt strikes again" guess.
At any event: why would Wilhelmine need to supervise Heinrich during SD's labor and ensueing lying-in anyway? That's what the staff is for. Heinrich having joined AW's household as of his fourth birthday in January, he wasn't even staying with his mother's household anymore. Note that in the letters from eight years old AW to FW which Cahn could read, which describe what the boys do all day, there's no mention of Mom or their oldest sister anywhere, just of Heinrich and their tutors.
Magdeburgers: would have to look it up.
SD trying to forestall a marriage she doesn't want by arguing that Wilhelmine's too young and will reproach her parents someday if she ends up unhappily married...that's pretty brazen, considering the quote at the beginning of the book where SD is writing about two-year-old FoW asking about his future bride, aka TWO-MONTH-OLD Wilhelmine.
No kidding. It really shows how soon she got fixated on that idea.
FW wanting to marry her to August the Strong: probably not, says Oster, no external evidence, and surely SD would freak out.
On the one hand, yes, on the other there's the Fritz letter from Dresden to Wilhelmine which gives her a "hot or not?" report on August the Strong. Now maybe it's just because Fritz assumes his sister would want to know more about their host, but date wise, it works with when the memoirs say the match was talked about, i.e. between FW's short lived "am gonna abdicate and live the true Christian life with my wife and daughters at Wusterhausen" idea and the Dresden visit. Maybe it wasn't as serious a possibility as she presents it in her memoirs, but what I do think is possible that Grumbkow, who was after all the FW/August liason, put it out there in some drunken rounds, and FW didn't immediately say no, which would have been enough for rumors to start and filter through to Wilhelmine and Fritz.
I take back what I said long ago about this marriage going better than the EC marriage.
Fritz: Franz Stephan, I am not. I'm also an expert in marital warfare even at this tender age. Bring it on.
LOL. And Amelia/Emily comes across as way more strong willed than EC, too. Mind you, her own experience with royal marriage would have been with Caroline managing G2 by pretending to worship to the ground he tread on but manipulating him into accepting all her ideas as his.
I wouldn't wish such a fate on Wilhelmine, but wooow, can you imagine Lord Hervey recording how this went down??
Quite. And Fritz of Prussia would have done him the favor of always talking in French when insulting the Hannover clan, too.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Oster trusting Catt is your explanation for four years old Heinrich being declared FW's fave by him; Catt, remember, claims he was.
Oh, right! I'd forgotten that, but yes. Okay, that makes sense.
So unless Oster provides a different source citation for the anecdote - say, an ambassadorial report (by Guy Dickens or Hotham the older, presumably), I'm going with my "faith in Catt strikes again" guess.
I...I can't tell. Here's the passage:
In dieser Atmosphäre konnte es sogar Wilhelmine wagen, ihrem Vater wieder unter die Augen zu treten, nachdem ihr Brief dessen Zorn bereits hatte erweichen lassen. Auch diese Szene hat der braunschweigische Gesandte am 4. März geschildert: »Wie sie nun ... hereingerufen, habe sich die älteste Prinzessin zu des Königs Füßen geworfen und selbe umfasset; da sie der König bei die Hand genommen und aufstehen heißen. Als sie aber dem König die Hand küssen wollte, war ihr solches resusiret [verwehrt], die Königin ihr darauf einen Wink gebend, war sie [Wilhelmine] dem Könige um den Hals gefallen und ihn geküsset, dabei sagend: ›Papa hat eine Ungnade auf mich geworfen, so mir länger unerträglich fällt. Ich bitte kindlich, Papa lasse mir doch die vorige Gnade wieder verspüren‹; welche Worte die Prinzessin bei Vergießung vieler Tränen hervorgebracht ... Der König habe darauf wieder versetzet: ›Es ist nun alles gut, Wilhelmine, du bist allemal meine liebe Tochter.‹« Friedrich Wilhelms gute Laune ging an diesem Tag sogar so weit, daß er Wilhelmine auftrug, während Sophie Dorothea im Wochen bett lag, für ihren Bruder Heinrich zu sorgen, der damals sein Liebling war. »Hieraus nun will man schließen, daß die Versöhnung zwischen dem Könige und der Prinzessin ihre Richtigkeit habe.«
The bit about taking care of Heinrich and Heinrich being the favorite aren't in the direct quote. But if they're from Catt and not the envoy, then the "Hieraus" is very misleading, to say the least. So the taking care of Heinrich story looks like it must come from the Brunswick envoy, even if the "he was the favorite" could possibly be an addendum from Catt.
Brunswick envoy on March 4: "Touching reconciliation between Wilhelmine and FW, everybody cries," in direct quote from the envoy report.
End direct quote.
Oster adds that FW is in such a good mood that he tells Wilhelmine, while SD is in childbed, to take care of Heinrich, who at the time was his favorite.
Resume Brunswick envoy direct quote: "From this, we can [or "we'd like to"?] conclude that the reconciliation between the King and Princess is real." [I'm taking "ihre Richtigkeit habe" to mean "has veracity," i.e. "is real," and the context to be the fact that just in the last month, the envoys have been writing home, "Is FW really being nice to Fritz, or is this just a show for our benefit?"]
So while I don't remember this anecdote from the memoirs, to answer selenak's question, the anecdote itself seems to be real, though I can't tell whether the envoy vouches for Heinrich being the favorite that year. (If he was, I really want to know what happened to make AW lose that spot temporarily.)
I also don't remember this anecdote from Catt, which is not to say it's not there, though I do remember Heinrich being the favorite, now that I'm reminded.
[ETA: Though I should add that I do remember, if my memory isn't faulty, a very similar episode earlier in the memoirs in which Wilhelmine was given charge of a different younger sibling or siblings. I will need to look that up.]
say, an ambassadorial report (by Guy Dickens or Hotham the older, presumably)
Oster actually quotes a lot from Stratemann, the Brunswick envoy, whom I didn't know about. As I said, there's a lot of good, new-to-me information in this book, and I'm glad I'm reading it!
At any event: why would Wilhelmine need to supervise Heinrich during SD's labor and ensueing lying-in anyway? That's what the staff is for. Heinrich having joined AW's household as of his fourth birthday in January, he wasn't even staying with his mother's household anymore.
Honorary position just to show that she's in favor again? I'm not sure, I was wondering this myself. And yes, I did wonder how this worked with him being in AW's household now.
Good question!
Magdeburgers: would have to look it up.
Please do, when you get the chance (I know you're traveling), and let me know where you find it, if you do. I'm interested in this sort of thing, and my admittedly cursory Google didn't turn anything up. If I have time, I might do a more thorough Googling.
On the one hand, yes, on the other there's the Fritz letter from Dresden to Wilhelmine which gives her a "hot or not?" report on August the Strong.
Oh, right! I'm so glad there are two of us: I remember the things you forget, and you remember the things I forget. :D
Maybe it wasn't as serious a possibility as she presents it in her memoirs, but what I do think is possible that Grumbkow, who was after all the FW/August liason, put it out there in some drunken rounds, and FW didn't immediately say no, which would have been enough for rumors to start and filter through to Wilhelmine and Fritz.
This makes total sense.
And Amelia/Emily comes across as way more strong willed than EC, too.
Right? I mean, most people who aren't Louise do, but seriously. Powder keg, lit fuse...disaster waiting to happen.
Mind you, her own experience with royal marriage would have been with Caroline managing G2 by pretending to worship to the ground he tread on but manipulating him into accepting all her ideas as his.
Sadly, as much as Fritz has a praise kink, I have my doubts about her chances of success.
And Fritz of Prussia would have done him the favor of always talking in French when insulting the Hannover clan, too.
*snort*
Edited 2020-09-27 15:21 (UTC)
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Clearly, we'll have to read up on Stratemann of Brunswick, too, to find out whether he reports the "take charge of the (so far) youngest "story as well or whether Oster has it from another source. Also, like you so often said, Mildred: the envoys are where it's at! :)
More seriously, given AW gets Fritz' regiment toute suite that year and is made Colonel, and we have sunny letters to Dad which Ziebura quotes, I'm not sure what would have made FW temporarily rearrange his favourites children list. I mean, he was in a spectacularly bad mood for much of the year as well, as amply documented in the Fritzian context, so he may not have needed a reason, but it would still be very surprising, especially since Heinrich doesn't rate individual instructions to his stewards but is lumped under "the young princes" together with Ferdinand, and I'm sure that if Ziebura had found an FW remark especially about Heinrich indicating favor, she'd have quoted it, having gone through not just the published but the unpublished family correspondance at the state archive. Usually if you like a kid best, you talk about said kid. Not to mention that apparantly we have letters from Wilhelmine, from Fritz, from Charlotte and from AW to FW in the archive, all of which I've seen quoted, but not from child Heinrich. At a guess, if a letter from child!Wilhelmine survives in which she sends Dad her drawn tooth, a letter from temporary fave Heinrich would have been preserved as well, if such a letter had existed.
All this said: as long as they are babies and toddlers, the youngest children of a large family tend to be either neglected or spoiled, no? Maybe FW not getting along with his oldest kids at all in 1730 translated into liking the baby (until new baby Ferdinand was born) but not so much anymore once he grew older and developed a (suspiciously Fritz like) personality. That's always assuming the Brunswick envoy did report this, as opposed to Oster getting his info from Catt.
Magdeburgers: well, I seem to recall we have the two part FW biography in the library? I haven't braved that one yet, but it could be in there.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Clearly, we'll have to read up on Stratemann of Brunswick
Great minds think alike! A quick glance through Oster when I was doing that write-up didn't show me what the source for Stratemann is, nor have I googled, but those items are on my to-do list.
Also, like you so often said, Mildred: the envoys are where it's at! :)
Also exactly what I was thinking when I realized we have a new envoy!
Maybe FW not getting along with his oldest kids at all in 1730 translated into liking the baby (until new baby Ferdinand was born) but not so much anymore once he grew older and developed a (suspiciously Fritz like) personality.
Maybe? And as you've pointed out, AW was Heinrich's hero, so maybe FW heard about how Heinrich just adored his new roommate and looked up to him in everything, and FW thought, "That boy's going places!" (He is, just not in the way you might think, FW.)
Magdeburgers: well, I seem to recall we have the two part FW biography in the library? I haven't braved that one yet, but it could be in there.
Oh, Förster, you're right! Hmm, I've put "Förster detective work" on my to-do list, assuming you don't get around to "Förster write-up from the royal reader" first. ;)
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Clearly, we'll have to read up on Stratemann of Brunswick, too
Update: a 300-page volume of envoy reports from Stratemann for 1728-1733 (sweeeet!) has been obtained, and will be uploaded to the library when I wake up. :)
Fingers crossed I can get volume 3 of the Lady Mary letters after receiving a duplicate copy of volume 1 today, because it was only $13, and the next cheapest copy is like $40. Awaiting word from the bookseller. Volumes 1-2 are safely in hand, and will be digitized and uploaded at some point.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
ETA: Though I should add that I do remember, if my memory isn't faulty, a very similar episode earlier in the memoirs in which Wilhelmine was given charge of a different younger sibling or siblings. I will need to look that up.
I was not misremembering! This passage is from 1725, so the year Wilhelmine turned 16:
In the mean time I was at Berlin in great favour with the king: I passed every afternoon in conversation with him, and he used to sup in my room. He even shewed me some confidence, and often spoke of state affairs. To give me a still greater mark of distinction, he ordered me to hold a drawing-room like the queen. The governesses of my sisters were placed under my command, and had orders not to stir a step without my knowledge. I did not abuse the king’s favour. Young as I was, there was as much solidity in my conduct then, as there can be now ; and I might have superintended the education of my sisters: but I did myself justice, and clearly perceived that it did not become me; neither would I hold a drawing room. I contented myself with inviting a few ladies every day.
So I think it's possible we'll find Heinrich in her care in the Stratemann volume tomorrow.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Found it! It's the entry on March 4th 1730. Heinrich isn't called FW's favourite (and btw, this Ambassador has a lot about AW earlier just by name searching, FW is even supposed to have given AW Wusterhausen, and organizes special fireworks for him, AW is described as his firm favourite), and it's only the second time he shows up at all (earlier, Stratmann notes he's joined AW's household), but Wilhelmine is told to look after him (in one particular situation) as a sign of FW's forgiveness. The situation: SD has a difficult pregnany, FW tells his "Fieke" that God has given her to him for 24 yers now, he wants to keep her, God can do to the baby whatever he wants as long as he lets FW keep SD. Then he asks her whether she wants to see her children. SD says yes, and that the two oldest should be in the antechambre. FW allows all to enter, enter they do, he's greeted but refuses to give Wilhelmine his hand to kiss because he's still angry. SD gives Wilhelmine a signal, Wilhelmine puts her arms around FW's neck, cries and pleads for him to show her his grace again, he says "It is alright, Wilhelmine, you are my dear daughter".
In the evening, the kids all dine in the antechambre, FW keeps going between the antechambre and SD's bedroom and:
Des Abends hatten alle Königliche Kinder in der VorCammer speisen müssen, da der König zwischen der Königinn Bette und solcher Tafel beständig, unter lieblichen Anreden, spazieren gangen; und wie Se. Majestät angemercket, daß der kleinste Prinz Heinrich geweint, und nach der Ursache gefraget, der Cron-Printz auch darauf geantwortet: daß sein Bruder von den Fischen eßen wollte, so man Ihm gegen die Nacht zu geben weigerte; hatte der König zu der ältesten Prinzeß gesaget: Wilhelmine! gib du Ihm nur ein wenig und will ich dir hiermit aufgetragen haben: daß du, so lange Mama krank ist, Sorge vor Heinrichen trägest. Hieraus nun will man schließen, daß die Versöhnung zwischen dem Könige und der Prinzeß ihre Richtigkeit habe, da sonst der König, wegen Ihr angetragener aber von Ihr refusierter sichern Mariage mit Ihr in einigen Wochen nicht sprechen wollen; woher dann auch der lieben Königinn Maladie wohl guten Theils ihren Ursprung genommen haben mag.
From the Rokoko German (he's a Braunschweig envoy and apparantly not fluent in French, he writes German): "...and when his majesty noticed that the smallest Prince, Heinrich, was crying, and asked for the cause, the Crown Prince replied that his brother had wanted to eat from the fish which had been refused to him to eat in the evening; then the King told the oldest Princess: Wilhelmine! do give him a bit, and I want to charge you to look after Heinrich as long as Mama is still so ill. From this, one wants to conclude that the reconciliation between the King and the Princess is for real, for otherwise the King due to the marriage she'd been offered and she'd had refused had himself refused to speak to her for several weeks now; which may have been the cause of the malady of the dear queen.
Stratmann doesn't claim to have been present, he has it from court gossip. But he does report it minus designating Heinrich as FW's fave, so I'm still going with Oster having that from Catt.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Thank you! Rococo babysitting: not just for older brothers. :D
this Ambassador has a lot about AW earlier just by name searching, FW is even supposed to have given AW Wusterhausen, and organizes special fireworks for him, AW is described as his firm favourite
Sounds like another valuable envoy for us. :)
Stratmann doesn't claim to have been present, he has it from court gossip. But he does report it minus designating Heinrich as FW's fave, so I'm still going with Oster having that from Catt.
Yep, I bet that's it.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Thank you! Rococo babysitting: not just for older brothers. :D
Fritz: Though did anyone notice my statement was the reason why the brat got his bloody fish? And did he say thank you? Ha. Gratitude and Heinrich were strangers from the beginning.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
In 1724/1725, the Magdeburgers brought some sort of lawsuit against FW at the Imperial Court?
I was busy looking into this, and I still haven't found it, but what I did find was very interesting.
Brandenburg had possessed the expectation of certain limited rights in Limpurg since 1693...When the last count died in August 1713 without male heirs, Brandenburg-Prussia occupied the territory. This prompted the widowed countess to appeal to the Reichshofrat to secure the continued autonomous existence of the county. The Reichshofrat subsequently sent the Emperor a report, which related that 'Prussia invaded the Limpurg lands with a whole battalion, and even failed to spare the widowed countess’s castle from being occupied by soldiers.'
Citation: "Imperial law versus geopolitical interest: the Reichshofrat and the protection of smaller states in the Holy Roman Empire under Charles VI (1711-40)", Patrick Milton, a heavily footnoted academic paper from 2015 with primary source citations (including envoy reports), available here.
The difference being that FW recognized imperial authority and grudgingly backed down when the Reichshofrat told him to. I guess he *didn't* start a war of aggression over it.
But yeeeeeah. Between this and FW's decision to go to war to get Swedish Pomerania in 1715, I'm at least half side-eyeing that political testament.
ETA: This table looks so much better in preview. Sigh.
Magdeburg: Förster came through with the documentation. To let you practise your German, I'll the entire passage in the German original. English summary: FW taxes Magdeburg, which includes taxing Magdeburg's knights for their horses. Magdeburg's nobles are indignant and sue him at the Reichshofgericht. The later finds for the Magdeburg nobles and threatens to put FW under the Reichsbann if he doesn't desist. (This is what will happen to Fritz in the 7 Years War for invading Saxony.) FW tells his comissioners to give Magdeburg's nobles hell any way they can and complains to Seckendorff that he's treated as if he were a dirty rebel who'd raised his sword against the Emperor, and, like, invaded, when he's just demanding his rights as a sovereign lord from the Magdeburg nobility (who are his subjects, after all), and where's my respect, dude? Förster then says that FW ignored the court, and since the Emperor at this point wanted him as an ally he let it pass and let the Magdeburg nobility fend for themselves, which means they caved and paid their horsetaxes. BTW, looking for this, I also came across Förster, writing in 1832, believing in the evil Catholic conspiracy to marry Fritz to MT (or her sister), which our hero escaped due to his and FW's integrity.
(Gr. = Groschen. Pf: Pfennige. Th. = Taler.)
In dem Herzogthume Magdeburg wurde die Contribution aus einer Menge verschiedener Auflagen und Steuern erhoben. 1) Von dem Scheffel Aussaat wurden nach der verschiedenen Güte des Bodens gezahlt: 10 Pf., 7 Pf., 5 Pf, 2 Pf. 2) Giebel- und Häuſerschoß nach der Größe der Bauernhöfe, Kossäthen-Tagelöhnerhäuſer monatlich 16 Gr., 12 Gr., 8 Gr., 6 Gr. und 4 Gr. 3) Von Gärten-, Wiesen-, Holz-, Mast-, Fischerei-, Hopfen-, Rohr-, Weinbergs-, Steinbruchs-, Zehnten-, Brau-, Salz- c. Nutzung von jedem gewonnenen Thaler 1 Gr. zur Contribution. 4) Viehsteuer: von einem Pferde jährlich im guten Lande 16 Gr., im Sandlande 8 Gr., von jedem Ochsen, jeder Kuh 6 Gr., jedem Rinde 2 Gr., jedem Schafe 1 Gr. 5) Tranksteuer oder Consumtions-Accise auf dem Lande, von jedem Faß inländischen Bier 12 Gr., von dem aus anderen königlichen Provinzen 1 Thaler. 6 Gr., von ausländischem 2 Thaler. Auf die Hufen geschlagen betrug die Contribution hier 16 Thaler. 21 Gr. 5 Pf, für die Hufe. Gegen die Einführung der Lehnpferdegelder sträubte sich die magdeburgische Ritterschaft, und da der König mit Gewalt einschritt und Execution anordnete, verklagten ihn die Betheiligten bei dem Reichshofrathe in Wien. Dieser erkannte zu Gunsten der Edelleute, und der Kaiser drohte sogar, gegen den König die Reichs-Execution anzuordnen, im Fall er sich nicht dem Ausspruch des Reichshofraths fügen würde. Dieser Prozeß zog sich sehr in die Länge und machte dem Könige vielen Verdruß. In der Instruktion für das General-Directorium vom 20. December 1722 befiehlt er daher dem königlichen Commissariat in Magdeburg: »diesen renitirenden Edelleuten allerhand Chicanen zu machen und ihnen solchergestalt den Kitzel zu vertreiben, gegen ihren angebornen Landesherrn und ihre Obrigkeit dergleichen frevelhaftes und gottloses Beginnen weiter zu gedenken, geschweige denn selbiges wirklich vorzunehmen und auszuführen, « – Über das , von dem Reichshofrathe in dieser Sache gefällte, Urtheil beklagt sich der König bitter in einem Briefe an den Grafen Seckendorf, vom 7. April1725. (*) »Der Reichshofrath – schreibt er – hat mich aufs Neue condemnirt, daß ich alles, was ich zur Bezahlung ermeldeter Lehnsrecognition von diesen, meinen rebellischen magdeburgschen, Edelleuten habe beitreiben lasen cum omni causa ihnen zurückgeben und ferner deshalb von ihnen nichts fordern soll. Der Reichshofrath hat ferner resolvirt, daß die Könige von Polen und Schweden, samt dem oberrheinischen Kreise solche Resolution wider mich zur Execution bringen, und wenn ich mich widersetzen wollte, die schwäbischen, fränkischen und niederrheinischen Kreise dabei mit aller Macht wider mich assistieren sollten, daß also beinahe das ganze Reich in die Waffen und wirkliche Action gegen mich zu treten engagirt wird und solches um bloßer 40 Thlr. willen, die ein jeder von den widerspenstigen Vasallen von seinem Ritterpferd mir jährlich zahlen soll. – Hierdurch werde ich aber bei allen meinen Unterthanen in dem höchsten Grade prostituiert und außer allem Respect gesetzt, so dieselben für mich, als ihre Landesobrigkeit haben sollen und lasse ich den Herrn Grafen selbst urtheilen, ob man wohl härter und grausamer mit mir umgehen könnte,wenn ich den Degen wider den Kaiser selbst gezogen, auch mit seinen und den Reichsfeinden ein offenbares Complot gemacht hätte, das ganze Reich feindlich zu überfallen und über den Haufen zu werfen.« Der König achtete indessen nicht weiter auf die Aussprüche des Reichshofrathes, und da der Kaiser damals an Friedrich Wilhelm einen Bundesgenossen zu gewinnen wünschte, wurde die magdeburgische Ritterschaft ihrem Schicksale überlassen und mußte die Lehnpferdegelder zahlen.
Thank you! Well found, subdetective selenak. (As you can see, I got distracted by other FW shenanigans.) So FW does *not* always obey the Reichshofrat. I can see why he thought this one was well within his rights, and why the Emperor decided not to push it.
I have a related article, on Austria and Prussia in the Imperial Diet 1745-1763, that looks interesting, but I'm waiting on Royal Patron for the download.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
how periodically Seckendorff had to go take the waters to recover a little from the hardcore job of being the most successful envoy at FW's court.
Ha! I thought that was funny too :)
This is why I maintain that if FW had wanted sex, Seckendorff would have done whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff.
Would read! :)
SD trying to forestall a marriage she doesn't want by arguing that Wilhelmine's too young and will reproach her parents someday if she ends up unhappily married...that's pretty brazen, considering the quote at the beginning of the book where SD is writing about two-year-old FoW asking about his future bride, aka TWO-MONTH-OLD Wilhelmine.
Ha! I didn't catch that, but I should have :)
I wouldn't wish such a fate on Wilhelmine, but wooow, can you imagine Lord Hervey recording how this went down??
50 more pages. Wilhelmine has arrived in Bayreuth and is not impressed. Oster is arguing that contemporaneous letters she sent to family show that it wasn't as bad as Wilhelmine later recounted in her memoirs. As opposed to Wilhelmine putting a good face on it?
Particularly this letter:
"Everyone's nice to me here, Dad! It would be great, except I miss you so much. Please send $$$, renovations desperately needed."
None of that strikes me as either something that should be taken at face value or as counterevidence to the memoirs.
Also, lol at imagining that letter being written by Wilhelmine the modern AU college student. :P
One essay/lecture that was linked at the Bayreuth website about Wilhelmine goes into those letters after her marriage, and shows Wilhelmine writing to FW, SD and Fritz about the same time but quite differently, tailored to recipient. And yes, FW gets the most polyanna letter. Considering he made her sign a disclaimer that she gave up her right to inheritance from SD just before the marriage as a last minute surprise and that as a result she was financially still very much dependent on him (and that her father-in-law had expected more cash), I think any letter from Wilhelmine to Dad has to be taken with extreme caution as to the veracity. And with SD, SD's general disapproval of the marriage was still hanging over her, so a "see, Mom, at least my husband loves me, and I'm doing well!" argument is ongoing.
Those letters, which you wrote up for us, were exactly what I was thinking of. So far, I haven't been blown away by Oster's scholarship. I mean, Ziebura also trusts Catt, but that seems unavoidable, and I do feel like she did a better job (as far as I can perceive) of deploying the epistolary evidence. I'm still glad I'm reading Oster, of course! Learning a lot, just like with Blanning and MacDonogh. But serious grains of salt.
Just a few pages today, but at least I kept my momentum going. Wilhelmine's daughter has been born, and the Margrave is trying to make sure FW doesn't implicitly take over his principality, by means of asking forgiveness rather than permission regarding the baptism, lol.
OK! A cold is going through our house (fortunately nothing worse!) and as a result I've been bad about reading the last couple of days, and am probably not going to be able to catch up in salon for a couple of days either. (And unlike selenak, this probably doesn't mean I'm going to have lots of amazing reading comments posted :) ) So I'm still a little behind, but am hoping to catch up soon.
18 more pages, Wilhelmine has returned from the 1732-1733 visit to Berlin and sworn never to go back. Her husband is being totally adorable gushing over their kid.
Everyone here seems to be doing better, though I'm still behind as I only read a couple of pages today. (And falling even further behind on comments as I spent tonight doing the work I didn't do while acting as tech support for remote schooling child today.) But I will get caught up eventually, so feel free to read more! :)
Fingers crossed for you and your family. Come back to us soon!
And unlike selenak, this probably doesn't mean I'm going to have lots of amazing reading comments posted
Also, this. Whenever she's like, "I have insomnia, so here's a write-up of a book I just read," I'm like, "I wish my insomnia worked like that." With me, it's like, "I have insomnia, so I'm temporarily illiterate, expect nothing." :P
Detective work I can do on minimal sleep, though; it's kind of amazing the difference between reading and googling. That's exactly why I've been detective and not reader the last year. (I'm having some luck beating my sleep into submission, but it's going to be a ongoing process with fluctuations, we're not there yet.)
All of which is to say, selenak is an international treasure. <3 And also, magical alchemy is the best.
OK! Still behind on reading, but I did some today so I'm hopeful that I can start the catching-up process, and let's see if I can at least bang out a comment or two before bed.
Detective work I can do on minimal sleep, though; it's kind of amazing the difference between reading and googling.
Ha! Both of you are amazing on minimal sleep :) Whereas when I'm on minimal sleep I can read fiction just fine, and ramble on about it, and while that's useful for DW it's not very useful for salon. Oh, but that reminds me: tomorrow I can check out the second Dark Quartet book :D
(I'm having some luck beating my sleep into submission, but it's going to be a ongoing process with fluctuations, we're not there yet.)
Yay!! Not just for salon, that sounds like it will just improve your quality of life in a ton of different ways.
All of which is to say, [personal profile] selenak is an international treasure. <3 And also, magical alchemy is the best.
Another 18 or so pages. The Margrave has just died, and Wilhelmine and her husband are trying to figure out how to run a principality.
Totally unrelated to anything, but I ran across this today and couldn't resist sharing with you guys. It's a comment exchange from the only fic on AO3 tagged Peter Keith that wasn't written by or for me:
Commenter: Actually it is the first time that I read a Friedrich II von Preußen's fic and I truly enjoy it, you let such a powerful and talented man become more colorful and adorable. And there is a funny thing that the way we translate his name(腓特烈) into Chinese is different from other Friedrichs(弗里德里希) haha,as he was of high authority, maybe.😂
Author: wow, this is interesting. I mean, he's not the only king named Friedrich in history xD but I guess he's still considered kinda Special nowadays <3 and well, he's my Baby xD so I appreciate it
Waaay behind on comments, but read another 21 pages. I very nearly didn't do any German, but then I imagined cahn yelling at me, and I buckled down right before bed. Reading group works!
The Margrave has just recovered from being sick and has started to notice Marwitz, uh oh.
22 pages. Fritz has just left his Bayreuth relatives standing there like poodles in the rain, which is a *fantastic* image. I've learned more German idioms from Oster than in all the rest of my reading combined. :D
Comments this weekend! You can now see that detective work, mostly Stratemann and Keith related, has taken up most of my week (plus it was an unusually busy week at work--gradually improving my sleep has meant more time at work and less time for salon. But also money to buy books! Which reminds me, I need to scan the 2 volumes of LM letters we do have.)
* Oh, Podewils was Grumbkow's son-in-law! I feel like I've run into that like 3 times and have forgotten it every time. So, goodbye English-friendly Knyphausen (Ariane's father) and hello Grumbkow son-in-law.
* That letter where Charles VI asks FW to not kill his son? Oster says Seckendorff only handed it over when the pardon was a done deal. Because it's Seckendorff, I believe it, but I'd like to see a citation.
* FW asking the preachers whether a father can force his daughter to get married: apparently one said yes! The preacher of the Garrison Church in Potsdam. (Where both FW and Fritz would be buried until Nazi times, if I'm remembering correctly.)
* Contra Wilhelmine's memoirs, Oster doesn't think that SD proposed the future Margrave of Bayreuth as a possible match, not even as a decoy.
* Oster has the "don't get married just to get me out of prison" letter, AWWW. I still love the mutual self-sacrifice between these two. YOU TWO. <3
* Oh, the future Margrave's regiment later got renamed the Ansbach-Bayreuther dragoons! I was *wondering* where that name came from. Duuuh. cahn, they will later distinguish themselves at the battle of Hohenfriedberg in 1745, one of Fritz's great victories. Wikipedia:
At this point the Prussian Bayreuth Dragoons, an oversize unit numbering around 1,500 men, entered the battle. A strong gust of wind blew away the powder smoke and the dust and revealed an opening in the Austrian lines through which to charge the vulnerable Austrian infantry. The dragoons deployed into line, and attacked north against the right flank of the first Austrian line. They drove all the way along that line, routing it completely, then turned south to destroy the second Austrian line.
The Austrians, already outnumbered, abandoned by their Saxon allies, without cavalry protection, and now broken by this attack, began to surrender en masse. The Bayreuth Dragoons defeated several thousand Austrian infantry and only suffered 94 casualties. The Dragoons overran twenty battalions, took 2,500 prisoners, capturing 67 flags and standards as well as four cannons in what is considered and celebrated as one of the great cavalry battlefield triumphs. The battle ended with the complete defeat of the Austro-Saxon army.
* Lol at SD protecting her girls' delicate ears from dirty sexual jokes.
* FW on his boar hunt: We're going to kill a bunch of pigs and everyone has to buy the meat! Especially if you're Jewish.
Sigh. Less expensive and more offensive than Fritz making them buy porcelain, I guess.
* Oster on Wilhelmine bringing Marwitz to Bayreuth: Little did she know that this girl would one day ruin her marriage.
That's right, blame the woman.
* Fritz writing to Wilhelmine after her wedding: "When I see you, you will again find the brother who dares [emphasis mine] to show you tenderness." Everybody stop being so hard on him for the wedding! We have the letter from Grumbkow telling him to set boundaries! There are plenty of other things to be hard on Fritz for, you won't have to do without.
* Schwager: I keep seeing this word used, not just for what I would call a brother-in-law, but also for the relationship between the FW and Wilhelmine's father-in-law, for which English has no single word. So German 1) actually has a word for that relationship, 2) it's the same as brother-in-law?
* Fritz in 1732: Can I go to Bayreuth with you, Dad? Can I can I can I?
Oster: The memory of the last trip FW had taken through south Germany with Fritz was too fresh...
I bet.
* Lol at the whole *drama* over Wilhelmine's daughter's baptism. I'm sorry you're being born into a dysfunctional family, little Friederike! [selenak, do we know what name she went by?]
* Fritz was godfather! Aww, I had either forgotten that or not known it. But of course he was.
* Fritz on October 19, 1732: If I could make gold, I would first use my knowledge to help out Wilhelmine.
If you could make gold, huh? I wonder if Fritz talked about making gold before 1732, or if we're seeing traces of Fredersdorf here.
* Speaking of Fritz and Fredersdorf, as we head into Christmas 1732, Fritz had been visiting FW at Wusterhausen before Wilhelmine arrived! I had missed that and assumed it was the first visit in a while, and wrote accordingly. Oh well! Fanfic takes liberties with chronology.
* This part, though, zomg:
Fritz to Wilhelmine: Don't bring too many servants, or Dad will fire them, and don't bring your musician right away. Let him come later, and don't let anyone find out he belongs to you.
THAT part of our fics was spot on! Wow, I didn't realize cahn and I had accidentally fictionalized an actualfax letter!
Also,
Nimm nicht viel Dienerschaft mit, denn er willdaran streichen
I'm assuming "streichen" is "remove", not, as Google hilariously translated it, "paint". Though Fredersdorf is nearly tall enough to get painted!
cahn, you missed the chance to include that scene. :P (Though historically, as far as I can tell, FW hadn't taken up painting yet. What is fic for if not for chronological liberties!)
* Another thing I got wrong that I will pretend was intentional conflation of minor characters: the Sonsfeld who takes care of little Friederike while Wilhelmine is in Berlin is not Sonsine the much loved, but her inexperienced sister who's like, "Halp, a baby, what do?" Or at least so Wilhelmine claims in her letter to try to get money for a proper nurse--I hope that was partly a rhetorical device!
* Fritz is disillusioned with the English and "hates everything English."
Lehndorff: :-(
* Judging by the letters and not the memoirs, Fritz had already left for his regiment when the German comedian episode happened, because Wilhelmine reports to him on it.
THAT is one chronological liberty I will stand and die by! Besides, we were writing fanfic of her memoirs. :P
* Fritz of Bayreuth: *loves his baby* Fritz of Bayreuth: Please don't tell your sarcastic brother-in-law. Wilhelmine to Fritz: Please tease my husband about this.
Okay, Wilhelmine?
* Wilhelmine: Dr. Superville saved my husband after a stroke! I will take this opportunity to note that he is of French extraction and comes from a good family.
* Superville on Fritz in 1739: much wit/spirit/intelligence, but a bad heart and a terrible character. He's suspicious, stubborn, excessive, selfish, ungrateful, vicious, and unless I'm very much mistaken, will someday be even stingier than his father.
Oster: He's not wrong.
Me: Well spotted in 1739! Here's one person who wasn't caught off guard in 1740.
* Wilhelmine and the Margrave set off for Italy and France in 1739! This is not ringing a bell at ALL! Wow.
That sucks that it didn't work out and they had to wait another 15 years, at which point she was very sick. :( :( :( I'm glad she was healthy enough to enjoy it, at least.
* Per Oster, Wilhelmine knew about her husband/Marwitz in 1739, but Fritz didn't.
* Oh, something I forgot to mention from the earliest pages:
Daß die Akademie der Wissenschaften unter Friedrich Wilhelm I. für die Bezahlung der Hofnarren zuständig war, sagt eigentlich alles.
That the court fool was responsible for the Academy of Sciences under FW really says it all.
Things like this are why I had *no* concept of Gundling as anything *but* the court fool until selenak stepped in. MacDonogh's the same.
You do remember correctly re: the Garrison church.
Schwager: I keep seeing this word used, not just for what I would call a brother-in-law, but also for the relationship between the FW and Wilhelmine's father-in-law, for which English has no single word. So German 1) actually has a word for that relationship, 2) it's the same as brother-in-law?
It usually means "brother-in-law", but in old fashioned German, it used to mean any male in-law, which the old Margrave was.
Wilhelmine's daughter did go by "Friederike". And I did translate Wilhelmine's letter about her husband being adorable about the baby for you back in the day. :) Fritz as godfather: alas he wasn't a good one, in the sense that he actually did something for the girl. Now part of it was that he didn't see her often, due to geography (what with her living either in Franconia with her parents or in Swabia with her husband), and she didn't visit Berlin a lot. (Enough to impress Lehndorff with her beauty, though.) But Fritz quite openly writes to Wilhelmine in the 1750s, when she's fretting about her daughter's marriage, that "the only interest I have in your daughter is because of her mother". Exchanges between Fritz and Wilhelmine about adult Friederike tend to go thusly:
W: Visiting Stuttgart right now. My son-in-law is incredibly jealous and possessive re: my daughter. I think it's creepy, and doesn't bode well for how the marriage will go if the honeymoon era is over. F: Eh, isn't it good if a young bride has her husband's undivided attention? Your daughter should count herself lucky. W: Visiting Stuttgart again. Now he's having favourites. F: Men will be men. I knew he was like that when he was still growing up at my court. W: I've heard a rumor the Duke is secretly considering converting to Catholicism like his father and will make my daughter do the same. Please advise? F: Your daughter converting to Catholicism is a no-go. She's the Duchess in a Protestant principality where people hated the last Duke's guts for converting. Since her marriage is not going well, her being Protestant is all she has to assure herself of being in the public favor, and that can be useful to her if her husband turns more against her. W: Thanks, that's actually good ad.... F: Also I need Würtemberg to continue as my ally, not MT's, so your daughter better ensure her husband doesn't convert.
Daß die Akademie der Wissenschaften unter Friedrich Wilhelm I. für die Bezahlung der Hofnarren zuständig war, sagt eigentlich alles.
That the court fool was responsible for the Academy of Sciences under FW really says it all.
That's the wrong translation, though. "That the Academy of the Sciences under FW was responsible for paying the court fools (plural) salaries says it all."
I mean, the general meaning in the larger context presumably is still the same, re: the standing of the academy in FW's time, but in the interest of your German, I clarified.
It usually means "brother-in-law", but in old fashioned German, it used to mean any male in-law, which the old Margrave was.
Aahhh. Thank you!
And I did translate Wilhelmine's letter about her husband being adorable about the baby for you back in the day.
I indeed remembered the adorable good father part, but not the part where he told Wilhelmine not to tell and Wilhelmine promptly told.
But Fritz quite openly writes to Wilhelmine in the 1750s, when she's fretting about her daughter's marriage, that "the only interest I have in your daughter is because of her mother".
Oh, yes, I remember how he was, and my "awww" was 100% about Wilhelmine/Fritz feels at the time of the birth, not about his A+ godparenting/uncle-ing later in life.
Thank you for the German correction! The problem with my German at this point is that I can figure things like this out...if I'm willing to work for them. And in this case, I was typing fast and translating from a very faded memory, instead of rereading. (I.e. I'm pretty sure I got it when actually reading it a couple weeks ago.) My goal is to get to the point where the meaning jumps off the page at me!
* Ugh at Wilhelmine wanting to see FW before he died and none of the men in her life letting her. I totally get why Fritz was doing his usual "for your own good" move, but ugh. You shouldn't have to ask permission to visit your dying father.
* Wilhelmine may have expected Fritz to summon her straight to Berlin after he became king. I've always been surprised that he didn't! Even before I knew that she spent several months there immediately after her daughter was born. I would be interested to hear the selenak take on this. Yes, he still would have abandoned her to go off to war, but he sent for Algarotti and Duhan and a bunch of other people that he only abandoned after a few months. Why only a brief visit to Wilhelmine on a trip that was mainly for other purposes, and then an eventual invitation to come visit in October?
Also, lol at Oster saying the trip to Strasbourg was for political purposes. The rest of the trip, yes. Strasbourg?
Fritz: It is very important that Europe be prepared for my willingness to cross borders illegally.
:P
* Bei dieser Lebensweise verfliegt die Zeit so rasch, daß ich wünschte, die Tage hätten 24 Stunden.
They don't? Does this mean "waking hours" in German or something?
* Oster has the "there stands one who will avenge me" quote!
* War starts, and Wilhelmine is very encouraging to the Austrian envoy and says that she wishes Fritz hadn't invaded, that Bayreuth will not fight on his side, and that they will remain loyal to MT. That's more than just lunch!
* Wilhelmine and Margrave: Hey, if it's asserting old claims time, maybe we can get Nuremberg for Bayreuth! Fritz: I would advise against. Wilhelmine and Margrave: ???
Macaulay: His first object was to rob the Queen of Hungary. His second was that, if possible, nobody should rob her but himself.
* Fritz: You should totally fight on my side! Wilhelmine and Margrave: We made an alliance against the Habsburgs! Fritz: Too late, I already made a separate peace. Allies gotta fend for themselves. Wilhelmine and Margrave: ??? Fritz: *kicks off the Second Silesian War* MT: What about that peace? Fritz: Allies need me!
Oster: "The accusations of faithlessness bounced right off him."
15-yo Mildred: My FAVE. :D :D :D
Superville: See? SEE? I called this in 1739 and no one believed me! Voltaire was still getting the Anti-Machiavel published in 1740!
* Man trinke mit seiner Geliebten ja auch keinen Kräutertee
I get the gist of this (it's what I said in my Peter Keith post about Fritz not having a high opinion of the political prowess of people he met socially), but what is this about herbal tea?
Wilhelmine may have expected Fritz to summon her straight to Berlin after he became king. I've always been surprised that he didn't!
First of all: when did Wilhelmine's one and only visit to Rheinsberg (which coincided with the last time Fritz was there as far as I recall, after he was King already) happen? I just have a vague "early in his rule" memory, but that's covering anything between 1740 and the end of the first Silesian War.
As to why he didn't call her to Berlin straight away: honestly, I think it's for the Prince Hal/Henry V. reason. Everbody but everybody knew how close he and Wilhelmine had been throughout their childhood and adolescence. People also expected her to play a big role in his regime. (See Seckendorff the younger noting that SD might have miscalculated by dissing her daughter so much because Fritz, Seckendorff the younger thought, was going to resent that once he was King when Wilhelmine surely would be a major star at his court.) And remember that letter he wrote to Queen Caroline about how he'd never marry anyone but Princess Emily, one of the earliest things he apologized to FW for? (Not least because he could objectively see it had been a big mistake, no future monarch should tie himself down like this.) This letter, so said Fritz to several people and so Wilhelmine admits in her memoirs, had not only been written at Mom's urgings, but also Wilhelmine's. And because FW was so very publically angry about this, this was known to all and sunder as the example of Fritz politically influenced by women (tm), specifically, his mother and sister. Incidentally, bear also in mind the greater context. It's telling he wrote that letter to Caroline, not to Uncle George. Even in Prussia, they evidently knew Caroline was the brains of that operation. And while Reinette was not yet Louis XV's maitresse en titre, otherws were. In Russia, you had a Czarina on the throne. So: you have several major European powers dominated (in the public eye) by women, even when they were nominally ruled by men.
So I think Fritz, very set on remaking himself in the eyes of the public as der Einzige König, wanted to make it absolutely clear that no, he was NOT going to be influenced or dominated by anyone, including his favourite sister. Hence no immediate summonings. (Algarotti and Duhan were different - no one had expected them to exert any influence on him. People very much expected Wilhelmine to. Ergo: no summonings to make it clear she won't be the Power behind his Throne. Later visists, once he's won glory for himself and impressed everyone, are different, of course.
The saying actually is "ich wünschte, die Tage hätten mehr als 24 Stunden". I suspect the editor slipped up and didn't catch some leftout words.
Herbal tea: commonly associated with curing cold. You get doused with it by your doctors. Very sensible, not-well-tasting and unerotic. Note Fritz is casting Voltaire as his mistress there.
First of all: when did Wilhelmine's one and only visit to Rheinsberg (which coincided with the last time Fritz was there as far as I recall, after he was King already) happen?
October 1740, so the same time as Voltaire, who was also disappointed that he didn't get an immediate summons and an offer like Algarotti.
So I think Fritz, very set on remaking himself in the eyes of the public as der Einzige König, wanted to make it absolutely clear that no, he was NOT going to be influenced or dominated by anyone, including his favourite sister.
That does make sense. I've always thought that was part of the same reason he kept Peter at a distance (beyond the timing: Peter only returned to Prussia at the time Fritz was busy planning the Silesia invasion): he didn't want Peter trying to parlay his sacrifice into power. I originally had him spelling this out in the fic, but after revisions there wasn't really a place for it, and so that whole exchange got condensed down to, "I don't have to worry about you making a power grab, I gather?"--the implication being that that had been on his mind.
Paranoid Fritz is paranoid Fritz, as you say. And beyond that, public opinion matters a lot to him.
The saying actually is "ich wünschte, die Tage hätten mehr als 24 Stunden". I suspect the editor slipped up and didn't catch some leftout words.
Ah. We have that saying too! (It's hard enough to read in German without words getting left out, lol. This is like the time I managed to struggle my way through two pages of blackletter font, except where half a letter didn't get printed and I guessed the wrong letter, which changed the whole meaning of the word.)
Herbal tea: commonly associated with curing cold. You get doused with it by your doctors. Very sensible, not-well-tasting and unerotic.
Ah, okay. I don't have those connotations with herbal teas. (Maybe other Americans do, idk.) That makes sense, thank you.
Note Fritz is casting Voltaire as his mistress there.
Yes, that I noticed! Later, of course, he will cast him as Aeneas and himself as Dido. And Voltaire will cast Fritz as Alcina. Look, even if that letter was totally faked, Voltaire, you're still gay-as-hell-for-Fritz. :P
Another 20 pages. The Marwitz drama is hitting its climax, and Fritz is about to start getting upset about the Erlangen journalist. :(
Since I'm doing 20 pages with very little effort, and I'm not actually making myself do more than that, cahn, let's raise my weekend quota to 30 and my weekday quota to 25? We all know I'm capable of doing 50, but as my concentration improves, I'm trying to do some things besides German, and of course salon calls. :) Among those non-German things is The Club, which I'm currently reading at the suggestion of the Amazon recommendation algorithm. I don't know how accurate it may be, but since practically everything in it is new to me, I'm finding it very engrossing. At the very least, it's a good starting point for "Who are these people whose names and sometimes works you know, but not much more?"
All of which is to say, I'm no longer spending 100% of my free time on German, but I also don't want to lose my momentum, because I'm SO. CLOSE. But I'm so far that if I stop, what little command I do have will be gone before I know it.
Speaking of reading non-German books, I've finished "Domestic Enemies", and it is indeed very good. (Though I suspect only partly applicable to the German states within the same period.) And hooray on you reading a book featuring my guy Boswell (among others)! (No, I haven't read this one, but you might say I know the cast. *g*)
Speaking of reading non-German books, I've finished "Domestic Enemies", and it is indeed very good. (Though I suspect only partly applicable to the German states within the same period.)
Indeed, which is why all my beta emails to cahn were heavily caveated with "This is France! The author even points out that England and Italy and the Netherlands were different! And who even knows with FW and SD. Expectations for servants probably changed depending on who was in residence on a given day!"
And hooray on you reading a book featuring my guy Boswell (among others)!
I have to admit the author doooooes noooot like Boswell. Well, as an author, yes. But as a person, not so much.
you might say I know the cast. *g*)
And quite an extensive cast it is! Boswell and Johnson, of course, but also Edmund Burke, Joshua Reynolds, Frances Reynolds, Thomas Sheridan, Elizabeth Sheridan, Oliver Goldsmith, David Garrick, Fanny Burney, Hester Thrales, Adam Smith, Edward Gibbon, Charlotte Lennox, and others.
So far, Garrick is my favorite. The history of acting was *fascinating*.
It is, and I've always felt that someone should write a novel about Garrick's big Shakespeare festival at Stratford which was the single event most responsible for changing Shakespeare's status into a national treasure. Also, compared with moody superstar Edmund Kean who came after, the sheer, well, normalcy of Garrick's life style when not on stage is amazing. He just seems to have been a nice person.
As to the author not liking Boswell as a person, well, it happens. I mean, I've written an entire post as to why I like him, so I won't repeat that all here, but limit myself to a few bullet points not related to Boswell as an author:
- for all his celebrity seeking outs, Boswell is also the guy who defends luckless thieves of sheep, gets his guy off the first time but not again eight years later for the same offense, and then stays with him in his last hours so he isn't alone and comforts him; this isn't a famous highwayman, just a poor Scotsman named John Reid unkown to anyone (and who would be unknown to us, too, if he wasn't in Boswell's journal)
- (Boswell also defends convict and ocean crosser Mary Bryant when she makes it back to England, but since the ocean crossing won her fame, I don't suppose that counts in the same way)
- when his little daughter Veronica decides there is no God and pronounces this out loud, Boswell, religious 18th century Protestant Scotsman with a very strict authoritarian father he's on bad terms with, does not react by punishing his daughter or admonishing her or frightening her with outwardly shown disapproval/shock. First he seeks consults a self help book checks whether there are any parenting books advising what to do. Not finding any to his satisfaction, he next decides to ask Veronica how she got the idea, not aggressively (we know because he gives us the entire scene in dialogue), and finding she decided because she got told God took *dead person X* if there was no God, there would be no dead people, patiently explains this would not be the case, so Veronica is good with God again
- when Johson and the other guys in the club think you could be happy with any random woman in marriage, Boswell - who can't stop having casual sex, but also loves his wife, disagrees: I have a strong imagination that I could not have been so happy in marriage with any other woman as with my dear wife. I cannot tell why, so as to give any rational explanation to the others. I only know or fancy that there are qualities and compositions of qualities (to talk in musical metaphor) which in the course of our lives appear to me in her that please me more than what I have perceived in any other woman, and which I cannot separate from her identity.
- Boswell comes off way better than Hester Thrale (in particular) or several of Johnson's other friends when it comes to Francis Barber, Johnson's black servant who also was Johnson's main heir (with which Hawkings and Thrale and several others, but not Boswell who liked and supported him, had a problem); more about this in my review of Francis Barber's biography here, and as you know, I think that how you treat those below you in the hierarchy, especially if you yourself have fallen on hard times, is one of the best testimony's of character.
It's amaaazing and hilarious how Damrosch, by and large, manages to give those same anecdotes while putting completely different spins on them.
I think that how you treat those below you in the hierarchy, especially if you yourself have fallen on hard times, is one of the best testimony's of character.
Damrosch agrees with this, but chooses radically different examples of how Boswell behaved toward the people below him in the hierarchy. If I have more time after I finish the book, I'll share some examples.
I'm under no illusions that I'm getting a balanced portrayal of these people, but much like with Bodanis' romanticizing bio of Voltaire and Émilie, I'm learning whole bunches of things I didn't know, and that's very useful. As recently agreed, we all started out with random unsourced anecdotes about Fritz! You have to start somewhere. :D
I've put the Barber book on my maybe list, thank you. My kingdom for more time! (Currently working on fix-it fic.)
the sheer, well, normalcy of Garrick's life style when not on stage is amazing. He just seems to have been a nice person.
You'll know this quote, but I have to share it with cahn. For context, Garrick was an acclaimed actor:
When Boswell tried to get a rise out of him by suggesting that Garrick was too vain about his reputation, Johnson retorted, "Sir, it is wonderful how little Garrick assumes. Consider, Sir: celebrated men, such as you have mentioned, have had their applause at a distance; but Garrick had it dashed in his face, sounded in his ears, and went home every night with the plaudits of a thousand in his cranium. … If all this had happened to me, I should have had a couple of fellows with long poles walking before me, to knock down everybody that stood in the way."
and finding she decided because she got told God took *dead person X* if there was no God, there would be no dead people, patiently explains this would not be the case, so Veronica is good with God again
OK, I love all these stories, but this one is just lovely <3
34 pages! See, I can do it if I try. Wilhelmine is visiting Sanssouci for the first time, in 1750.
I admit I omitted her presence from Lovers, where she really should have been on Fritz's radar in the first chapter. The problem was that she's *so* important that it would have been hard to keep her from dominating the very specific story I wanted to tell, and she didn't fit into that set of parallels I was developing. But I gave her a starring role in the other fic!
27 pages. Quota met! If I meet my quota again tomorrow, I will finish the book. Then the plan is vol 2 of her memoirs (to give cahn a breathing space), and then Lehndorff!
I read up through the end of the Italy trip. The Seven Years' War is coming, then death. :/
I'm sorry I just did not keep up on this readthrough like I'd said I would! I'm still going, just... much slower than you are. I should be able to finish it before you get through the second volume of the memoirs, though, even at your super-rapid pace :PP
Hanna Smith and Stephen Taylor: Hephaestion and Alexander: Lord Hervey, Frederick, Prince of Wales, and the Royal Favourite in England in the 1730s.
Which is an excellent, highly readable essay of about 30 pages succeeding in what sets out to do, put the Hervey/FoW relationship into context and drawing conclusion. The authors always make it clear when they're speculating, but also on what grounds they do so.
In terms of context for Favourites: generally speaking, in public consciousness there lived two types of Favourites. The Bad Favourite, obviously, bleeding the realm dry, which is why Princes should not have just one but should dispense their favour among several. (Only human affection doesn't always work that way.) And the Good Favourite, the Trusted Faithful Lieutenant, who is loyal to his lord (or lady) but also speaks truth to power when necessary. When Sarah Churchill re: her relationship with Queen Anne prides herself on her candor, she's also pointing towards this role model. In terms of antique role models, Hephaistion is the Good Favourite - "He, too, is Alexander", loyal but never expoitative, unafraid to talk back to Alexander when needed, which is emphasiized in the most popular Alexander biography read at the time, the Quintus Curtius Rufus one. Which is one of the association Hervey will go for when picking the name. At the same time, the homoerotic association the Alexander/Hephaistion relationship evoked was definitely there as well, especially for someone who was as well read in the classics as Hervey was.
The other important context the authors establish is that of the changing attitude towards same sex relationships. In Stuart times, the self proclaimed libertines included m/m and f/f in their erotic poetry, Rochester prominently. Same sex relationships were also used for slander, especially in a political context; again, see Sarah Churchill, when losing Anne's favour to Abigail Masham, causing scandalous poetry and pamphlets being written that accuse Abigail of a lesbian relationship with Anne. Still, there was a great deal of laissez faire in the nobility, and all the nobility clubs like the Kit Kat club which had a great deal of ribaldry and (het) sex objects swapping also had at the very least homoerotic jokes and phallocentric conversations through the 18th century in England, but as time went on, the attitudes changed. By the 1760s, a self proclaimed libertine and free thinker like John Wilkes isn't just aggressively heterosexual but aggressively attacking homoerotic relationships as decadent and coded into princely depravity and tyranny.
Hervey and his entourage were more old school, obviously. Now I had noticed Hervey in the later part of his memoirs mentioning our old aquaintance Charles Hanbury Williams as a young man, aka Poniatowski's future mentor, the Fritz-loathing future envoy. He was a part of Hervey's wider social circle, friends with both Fox brothers (i.e. Hervey's boyfriend Stephen and Stephen's brother Henry), and guess what:
Winnington and the Fox brothers were also close friends with Hanbury Williams, who, in February 1740, penned a series of verses on Winnington's abandonment of Horatio Townshend for Teddy Byng. The following July, Hanbury Williams wrote an ode to Horatio Townshend that was even more explicit: ' Come to my Breast, my Lovely Boy! Thou Source of Greek & Roman Joy! And let my Arms entwine 'ye; Behold my strong erected Tarse, Display your plump, & milk-white Arse, Young, blooming, Ligurine!
(Our authors note that Hanbury Williams and Henry Fox were also notorious womanizers and H-W wrote just as explicit het verses, so: bi, rather than gay.)
As noted in my previous Hervey write-ups, Hervey being attacked by Pulteney specifically for his sexual ambiguity is also a sign of this changing time, of homoeroticism put more and more into a negative satiric context, and othered. And that was if you were a protected by your status noble. Really news to me and very important for not just the British climate towards same sex relationships was this bit of information:
And what may have given their fears extra impetus was the growing climate of moral panic over sodomy, itself provoked by the sensational trials of around three hundred men and boys for sodomy which were taking place in many of the leading cities of the United Provinces from 1730 onwards.The Dutch sodomy trials had swiftly made their way into the British press. Such reports not only expressed their abhorrence of this 'abominable Vice' and described in detail how the 'detested Criminals' were executed by being partially strangled, 'burnt with Straw', and drowned." They also noted how the accused included those who had held important political office. As the London Evening Post commented in June 1730, 'all Ranks are infected to that Degree, that the Magistrates are almost at a Loss how to Extinguish this Infernal Heat', and cited by name two prominent Dutch politicians suspected of the crime. The Daily Journal went further and described the fury of the Amsterdam crowd when it became known that those who had been convicted of sodomy amongst 'the richer Sort of People' had been granted the privilege of a private execution. 'The Populace arising in Arms, and demanding publick Execution of the Rich as well as the Poor ... the Magistrates were obliged to send to the Hague ... to quell this Mob'.' Thus, when Pulteney wrote of how the 'unnatural, reigning Vice' of which he accused Hervey had 'of late, been severely punish'd in a neighbouring Nation', he was making both a highly emotive connection that his readers would have immediately understood-and suggesting, by implication, that Hervey deserved the same brutal punishment.
Yet another context in which the Hervey and Fritz of Wales relationship plays out is that of the Royal Family. Here our authors do us the immense service and point out the timing, and remind us of the dates:
1716: 20 years old Hervey, when on his Grand Tour, visits Hannover and as urged by his father take the trouble to make nice with 9 years old Fritz, in order to impress the future monarch.
December 1728: adult Fritz of Wales finally arrives in England following the death of G1 and the coronation of his father as G2. During this time, however, Hervey is on his second Europe journey, this one with Stephen Fox.
October 1729: Hervey returns to England.
May 1730: Hervey becomes appointed Vice Chamberlain
1731: Hervey's friendship with FoW peaks; this is where the two preserved letters from FoW to Hervey (all others were destroyed) are from. (Hervey's own original letters to FoW were also destroyed, - after Fritz of Wales died, Augusta supposedly burned most of his correspondance - but luckily Hervey kept copies of his outgoing mail, so we do have his letters to the prince in copy.)
Late autumn and winter of 1731: Hervey writes angry letters about FoW to boyfriend Stephen Fox and to Lord Bristol, Hervey's father. FoW's affair with Hervey's mistress Anne Vane becomes public; Hervey is replaced as FoW's advisor by Bubb Dodington (what a name!).
April of 1732: Hervey tries to blackmail and bully Anne Vane into getting the Prince to take him back as advisor, thereby allienating the Prince even further. The relationship is over for good.
You may have noticed from the dates that Hervey establishing himself as royal Chamberlain and as the confidant to Queen Caroline and Hervey's friendship with Fritz of Wales happen exactly at the same time. This wasn't clear to me before, and it's hugely important. Our authors speculate that Hervey might have had Buckingham in mind as a role model of a generation uniting Royal Favourite. (cahn, the Duke of Buckingham started out as the Favourite (and lover) to James I., befriended James' son Charles - future Charles I. - while Charles was still Prince of Wales, and thus later after James' death continued firmly as Charles' Favourite as well until his assassination.) An example for this is that Hervey's letters to FoW show that parts of them were meant to be shared with Queen Caroline and read out loud; she expected it. (Hervey marks the parts not for public consumption.) However, the Buckingham model was not one that could work with the Hannovers. Instead of getting closer to his estranged family, FoW drifted further away, and sharing a confidant with Mom was really not likely to be workable given this. What's more, Hervey in the Sir Robert Walpole vs Pulteney struggle had sided with Walpole, the PM, and again, given that Walpole of course was 100% behind G2 in terms of what budget and freedom the Prince of Wales should have, Fritz of Wales was starting to eye the parliamentary opposition.
When it comes to "why did Hervey respond to the breakup to badly?", the authors don't think it was about Anne Vane as such, because Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not, and Hervey never comes across caring about Anne Vane for more than sex. (Especially when compared to the love letters he writes to Stephen Fox or Algarotti.) But being dumped for a man like Dodington, that's what hurt. Along with losing the prospect of being the next King's Favourite. But the authors don't think it was just all careerism on Hervey's part, not if he'd been even partly serious with picking Hephaistion as his role model. Hephaistion dumped by Alexander is unthinkable.
The question as to why Fritz of Wales dumped Hervey gets replied by taking all these various factors into account. Fritz of Wales wanted to establish his own identity outside the family he didn't get along with, and Hervey simultanously vying for Mom's favor and his own was an active negative rather than a positive here.
(BTW, re: the Hervey and Caroline relationship, the author says the relentless emphasis on Caroline as a mother figure here is on the one hand stretching things - since Caroline was only thirteen years older than Hervey - but on the other allowed the two of them to express their affection scandal free and in public; no one, not even the most relentless Hervey hater who accused Hervey of having pimped Anne Vane to FoW and of being Sporus and an evil gay etc., ever accused him of having illicit designs on the Queen's virtue, or the Queen to behave in any way inappropriate towards a man not her husband. This is a great contrast to what happened after of FoW' death with his poor widow, Augusta, who was accused to have an affair with her son future G3's tutor Lord Bute, who'd later become G3's minister of state (and also Lady Mary's son-in-law). Going by all we know, there was zero truth in that, and G3's fondness for Lord Bute was because the man had been a father figure to him in his adolescence, but there was still a great deal of hostility, satire and misogyny directed against Augusta, and even her coffin was cursed by the crowd as that of a shameless whore. With, again, zero evidence that she ever had done anything with Lord Bute.)
The Pulteney scandal and the ensueing duel plus even more scandal didn't seem to immediately affect FoW's feelings for Hervey - Hervey even makes a light hearted joke about it in one of his letters at the time - but the authors speculate that the affair in combination with the Dutch scandal of the trials against gay men and the fact that Fritz of Wales started to court a good public opinion at this point in order to get some standing in England (where he was looked at as a foreigner while brother future Billy the Butcher had been born and raised in the country) might have all contributed to Fritz of Wales deciding to trade in Hervey to Dodington.
Lastly: when they were close, how close where they? The essay starts with that quote from Hervey's letter to Stephen Fox where he says he wished he could love Fritz of Wales the way he loves Stephen Fox. Now, when I had read that quote first, in Halsband's Hervey biography, I had read it negatively, meaning "since this relationship could be the making of me, I wish I could love the guy at all, and I pretend to, but I don't". This, of course, is not how Stephen Fox took it; he seems to have read it as "I wish I could love the Prince the way I love you, i.e. romantically", hence the further exchange of tearful letters and Hervey apologizing and swearing he loves no one the way he loves Stephen.
On the other hand, Fritz of Wales actually uses the same nickname for Hervey as did Stephen Fox, and in one of the two preserved letters gets a bit teasing and flirtatious about it:
(T)hese show a deep affection for Hervey which leaps from the page. Frederick adopted the classical mythological personas of Orestes and Pylades for Hervey and himself, writing in one letter as 'the warm Orestes, to his Dear Pilades'. Orestes was the son of King Agamemnon, and he and Pylades were celebrated in classical literature as the inseparable friends who were willing to die for each other. The pair feature in Ambrose Philips's popular neo-classical drama, The Distrest Mother (1712), a play with which the prince was already acquainted, having ordered a command performance of it in January 1729. Frederick also had a more familiar name for Hervey-'My L[or] d Chicken', and 'my Dear Chicken'-an epithet, it seems, about Hervey's lack of physical robustness, and one which Hervey also liked to use about himself in his letters to both the prince and Stephen Fox. In 1730, then, Frederick liked to suggest, or indeed saw, Hervey as his intimate, immutable companion.
Of course FoW had girlfriends throughout the relationship and pre Anne Vane confided to Hervey about them - one of Hervey's "Hephaistion" letters asks whether "Roxana or Statira is in favour", making references to Alexander the Great's wives - but that doesn't exclude some homoerotic frisson, for, as the authors write: It is possible to read Hervey's and Frederick's relationship as having a similar heterosexual and homoerotic charge. This might explain Frederick's rather flirtatious wish in one letter to bait Stephen Fox about Frederick's and Hervey's friendship. Frederick wrote to Hervey, when he was visiting Stephen Fox in Somerset, by joking that 'being a fraid that this Letter should be opened if I sent it directly to you so I make a direction to Mr Fox, as if it was written to You by a Lady, to make you be teazed a little a bout it Adieu my Dear'. Perhaps the most compelling-if opaque-evidence for the complexity of Hervey's and Frederick's feelings for each other comes from Hervey's letters to Stephen Fox in the autumn of I73I. Hervey's and Frederick's relationship seems to have reached an intensity by late August I73I that unsettled Hervey. On 26 August Hervey told Fox that the prince had been seriously ill with a fever and added mysteriously, 'I should say many things to you if you were here which I shall not trust even to a Cypher. Solomon you know says speak not in Palaces for the Walls have Ears, nor of Princes for the Birds of the Air will reveal it.'
In conclusion: how an erastes and eromenos relationship can go truly, badly wrong, even if it remained subtextual between them.
"He, too, is Alexander", loyal but never expoitative, unafraid to talk back to Alexander when needed, which is emphasiized in the most popular Alexander biography read at the time, the Quintus Curtius Rufus one
That's interesting, because while that's definitely the characterization of him that I and others have picked up on, what I recall is Alexander saying something along the lines of him loving Hephaistion the most but respecting Krateros the most, because Hephaistion was loyal to Alexander the man and Krateros to Alexander the king. But I think that was in Plutarch, not Curtius.
as time went on, the attitudes changed. By the 1760s, a self proclaimed libertine and free thinker like John Wilkes isn't just aggressively heterosexual but aggressively attacking homoerotic relationships as decadent and coded into princely depravity and tyranny.
Huh, I didn't realize it had begun that early.
The following July, Hanbury Williams wrote an ode to Horatio Townshend that was even more explicit:
These envoys!
As the London Evening Post commented in June 1730, 'all Ranks are infected to that Degree, that the Magistrates are almost at a Loss how to Extinguish this Infernal Heat', and cited by name two prominent Dutch politicians suspected of the crime.
Wooow, that's right as the escape attempt via the Netherlands is happening. Must keep this in mind!
The Daily Journal went further and described the fury of the Amsterdam crowd when it became known that those who had been convicted of sodomy amongst 'the richer Sort of People' had been granted the privilege of a private execution.
Sigh. This is one of those cases where both sides are terribly wrong.
Thus, when Pulteney wrote of how the 'unnatural, reigning Vice' of which he accused Hervey had 'of late, been severely punish'd in a neighbouring Nation', he was making both a highly emotive connection that his readers would have immediately understood-and suggesting, by implication, that Hervey deserved the same brutal punishment.
*blink* Wooow.
You may have noticed from the dates that Hervey establishing himself as royal Chamberlain and as the confidant to Queen Caroline and Hervey's friendship with Fritz of Wales happen exactly at the same time. This wasn't clear to me before, and it's hugely important.
Yes, I hadn't picked up on that either, so thank you for spelling that out.
Bubb Dodington (what a name!).
I laughed. It reminds me of an Eddie Izzard skit where he's imagining Mr. and Mrs. Humperdinck saying,
"What shall we call our son so he does not get the shit kicked out of him at school?"
“We shall call him Engelbert!"
"Good, that'll work!"
When it comes to "why did Hervey respond to the breakup to badly?", the authors don't think it was about Anne Vane as such, because Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not, and Hervey never comes across caring about Anne Vane for more than sex. (Especially when compared to the love letters he writes to Stephen Fox or Algarotti.) But being dumped for a man like Dodington, that's what hurt.
That makes sense. Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not was the impression I had, so I was a bit surprised that it would trigger a breakup, but of course individual dynamics vary widely. But losing something that seems to have been more central to his identity being that distressing, makes sense.
but on the other allowed the two of them to express their affection scandal free and in public; no one, not even the most relentless Hervey hater who accused Hervey of having pimped Anne Vane to FoW and of being Sporus and an evil gay etc., ever accused him of having illicit designs on the Queen's virtue, or the Queen to behave in any way inappropriate towards a man not her husband
Well, that's good! And yes, "maternal" would be a good way to try to avert that fate.
In conclusion: how an erastes and eromenos relationship can go truly, badly wrong, even if it remained subtextual between them.
Always with the caveat: in England. (And the Netherlands, apparantly.) We don't have any data (yet) to tell us about other Eurpean countries. I mean, it's telling that in the Bellino episode (always according to his memoirs), young Casanova's problem wasn't "I've fallen in love with a man", but "I've fallen in love with a eunuch" (i.e. the eunuch part was what he didn't want to believe). Now, Bellino does turn out to be a woman in disguise, but he doesn't find out until after he's decided he doesn't care anymore what (s)he is, he loves this person. And the memoirs are of course written by old Casanova in the 1780s, being bored to death in Bohemia, so...
These envoys!
Indeed. Since both Andrew Mitchell and Charles Hanbury Williams turn out to have been bi, I'm starting to eye Guy Dickens and Charles Hotham Snr. Clearly, being an envoy is like being a soldier in the Prussian army in terms of likely straightness.
Wooow, that's right as the escape attempt via the Netherlands is happening. Must keep this in mind!
No kidding. Imagine Peter asking after the Come d'Alberville, being disappointed there, going into a Dutch inn only to find out everyone is talking about how more sodomites should be executed in public, as gruesomely as possible. And then he finds out FW is after him. No wonder he threw himself at the mercy of Chesterfield's people and got the hell out of there.
Re: Pulteney ,I forgot to mention my write up of Hervey's memoirs that there's finally an indication as to why he was such an ass to his wife in his last will. He mentions, not once but twice, that "Lady Hervey" was very much taken wit Pulteney and first advised for Hervey to side with him, not Walpole, and later, even after the Duel and the slander, that they should reconcile because she still liked him so much. Whether or not this is true, I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
But it was England specifically that I had in mind when I wrote that! I had run across something recently that said that London had a thriving "molly" subculture in the 1750s and was the place to be if you were gay. Of course, now that I think of it, the point of comparison was the American colonies, founded in part by Puritans, and even today, you can't go naked into your German sauna if there are Canadian savages Americans about. ;)
So, I guess it's all relative.
Imagine Peter asking after the Come d'Alberville, being disappointed there, going into a Dutch inn only to find out everyone is talking about how more sodomites should be executed in public, as gruesomely as possible. And then he finds out FW is after him.
ZOMG. Though since he's been stationed in Wesel all year, I was imagining he would have heard about the trials as they were happening...but the news is one thing, but yes, imagine walking into a bar and hearing the man on the street go, "More of that, please!"
Also, I've mentioned this before, but Peter was uneducated minor nobility sent to FW's court and exposed to FW at close range during a formative period of his sexuality, which means I do wonder how comfortable he was with being bisexual. (Some very ambiguous statements by Wilhelmine plus Fritz being gay now being our only evidence that Peter *was* bi, incidentally.)
Whether or not this is true, I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
Ah, this makes a lot of sense! Yeah, people are three-dimensional and complicated. :/
I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
Heh. Yeah, I guess this is a reminder to me that I always have to be careful to think about both sides (as you are).
generally speaking, in public consciousness there lived two types of Favourites. The Bad Favourite, obviously, bleeding the realm dry, which is why Princes should not have just one but should dispense their favour among several. (Only human affection doesn't always work that way.)
Fritz: Well, if you're Heinrich it works that way, except that it actually doesn't work because all his favourites are Bad Favourites.
And the Good Favourite, the Trusted Faithful Lieutenant, who is loyal to his lord (or lady) but also speaks truth to power when necessary.
LOL, my immediate reaction to this was "Hey, they had that trope and it was beloved by fans back then too!" :D
But seriously, thank you for including this info, this was all fascinating.
You may have noticed from the dates that Hervey establishing himself as royal Chamberlain and as the confidant to Queen Caroline and Hervey's friendship with Fritz of Wales happen exactly at the same time.
Me: But this seems like it wouldn't quite wor--
But being dumped for a man like Dodington, that's what hurt. Along with losing the prospect of being the next King's Favourite. But the authors don't think it was just all careerism on Hervey's part, not if he'd been even partly serious with picking Hephaistion as his role model. Hephaistion dumped by Alexander is unthinkable.
The question as to why Fritz of Wales dumped Hervey gets replied by taking all these various factors into account. Fritz of Wales wanted to establish his own identity outside the family he didn't get along with, and Hervey simultanously vying for Mom's favor and his own was an active negative rather than a positive here.
...all of this is super fascinating and makes a lot of sense.
Leafing through these reports, I keep thinking "OMG Mildred has to see this", so have a few impressions. First of all, this envoy is distinctly lower on the hacking order than all the previous envoys, unsuprisingly, since Braunschweig/Brunswick is another principality in the HRE, not a completely sovereign nation like Denmark or England. Even Saxony is different, due to being also the Kingdom of Poland at the time. So S. is either ultra cautious or really not so much in loop as the others, thought I at first (until getting to Katte's execution). There's no report on any friction between Fritz and FW until January 1730, and then it's very cryptic and only identifiable by footnote with the editor saying this is probably a hint of that. S. is the envoy equivalent of the kind of (old fashioned, not today's) conservative tabloid that writes cute family stories about the Royals and would never, or hardly ever, report anything nasty. So we hear what little Heinrich, age 4, gave SD as a birthday present (a china tea pot - I take it this was selected for him by someone else), or how the wetnurse for baby Ferdinand was selected (which I did find interesting), but nothing at all about FW shouting at his son (and oldest daughter), let alone manhandling or publically humiliating him. As late as August 18th, S. only knows Katte was arrested "for corresponding with a person of high rank".
Then, after Fritz' arrest is really really public, he keeps reporting rumors that he's about to be forgiven by Dad just the next few days, in September that Katte managed to clear himself almost totally and is facing just a few years of arrest, max. Wilhelmine is consistently reported sick for the remainder of 1730, that's the explanation S. keeps giving for why no one is allowed to see her anymore. She's in a bad state of health. Home arrest, what home arrest? On October 14th, he's noticed the messengers being sent from Wusterhausen to Köpenick (where the war tribunal was held) and back and optimistically concludes FW wants to reopen the palace at Köpenick as Fritz' new residence and forgiveness is really really imminent now. He also has heard that the tribunal wanted to deliver an ultra strict sentence on Katte, but FW, being the merciful King he is, has intervened and provided mercy and will soon declare Katte's pardon.
Just when I was ready to conclude he just doesn't have luck with his spies and paid informants, I check out the November entries, and lo, not only does S. provide a pretty accurate report of the execution, complete with dialogue between Fritz and Katte, but he also, near the end of November (25th) in another entry, has read the three letters Katte wrote (to the King, to his father and to his grandfather) in copies. (He still insists on lightside FW, saying that the King read Katte's letter only two days ago but bitterly regrets it and swears he'd totally have pardoned Katte if he had read it first.) (He also says Hans Heinrich has offered his resignation, and so has Katte's superior Natzmer, but that FW refused to accept it and on the contrary that the Katte family is in for some favors.) And then in December we get back to rumors of Fritz' imminent return to parental favor and neighbourhood, i.e. evidently false intelligence. So how come his intel on the execution is suddenly dead on? S., you are a man of mystery. Here's what he writes, and you know the scene so well that I give you Rokoko German:
Berlin, den 11. November 1730. Nach dem jüngst gemeldetermaßen, der Lieut. v. Katte gestern vor 8 Tagen, unter einer Escorte von 30 Mann Gens d'Armes in Begleitung des Ritt-Meisters v. Aßeburg und des Gens d'Armerie Feld Predigers nach der 10 Meil von hier entlegenen Veste Cüstrin gebracht und daselbst den 3. Tag darauf, am vergangenen Sonntage, abgeliefert worden; hat der, auf Königl. Befehl, dahin voraus gegangene Geh. Rath pp. Gerbet, in Gegenwart des gleichfalls aldar schon an gelangt gewesenen Obristen v. Derschau und anderer dazu bestimmter Officiern, demselben abermahls das Todesurtheil vorlesen und auf den folgenden Tag, dessen die Execution ankündigen müßen. Der Feld Prediger hat demnach die Devotion mit ihm continuiret, da andern Morgens der Condemnatus bald nach 7 Uhr im Schloße sich auf einen daselbst angefahrenen Sand-Haufen, gleich gegen des Cron-Prinzen Fenster über, eingefunden und wie Se. Königl. Hoheit ihn darauf angeredet. Mons. Katte! ich bitte euch vergebet mir, wann Ich euch zu leyde gethan und Ursache an euern Tode bin; und er sich dagegen hinwieder ganz constant in Antwort vernehmen laßen: Ihro Hoheit haben nicht Ursache um Vergebung zu bitten, weil Sie mir nichts zu wieder gethan und ich selbst meines Todes Ursache bin. Er darauf mit Gebet sich zu Gott gewandt, so folglich sich selbst die Augen verbunden und also in gleicher Constance des Henckers Schwerd Schlag abgewartet, der dann auch so glücklich gelungen, daß mit einem Hieb der Kopf vom Cörper abgesondert worden; welchem necht man dem Leichnam mit dem ausgebreiteten schwarzen Tuch bedecket und also bis 2 Uhr Nachmittags zum Schau liegen laßen; da man selben in einen Sarg geleget und die bestellte 12 Bürger des Orts selbigen so folglich zur Beerdigung auf den Kirchhof getragen; mit welcher Tragedie dann in so weit dieser Actus geendet, und wird gesagt: daß, wann der König dieses decollierten Lieutnants Verbrechen nach der rigoeur hätte bestrafen lassen wollen und nicht consideration für die viele vornehme Verwandten Se. Maj. selben mit einerweit eclatanteren Todes-Strafe belegen können.
Given S. earlier reports all those imminent pardons, the turnaround to "FW totally could have made it worse!" (i.e. FW's own argument) is especially startling. And the fact that it all checks out - the dialogue exchange, the sandheap, Katte binding his own eyes.
In the same November 25th entry where S. mentions the three letters and having read copies, he also provides us with this priceless anecdote about, wait for it, young AW confronting FW with Katte:
Sonsten wird pargiret: daß der zweyte Königl. Prinz jüngster Tagen beim Exercieren, da ein Officier ihm die Handgriffe bey bringen sollen, ganz ermüdet worden und nicht mehr damit fortfahren wollen; wie nun des Königs Majt. zu Ihm gelaget, wenn Du nicht exerciren willst, so sollst Du auch kein port d'epée mehr tragen; worauf der Prinz geantwortet: mein lieber Papa! das will ich wohl gleich wieder geben; wie der König darauf repliciret: Wilhelm! so kanst Du auch kein Officier sein; hätte der Prinz erwidert; da frage ich nichts nach, mein lieber Papa läßet ja einen Officiers die Köpfe abhauen. Was nun hiermit weiter vorgefallen, übergehet man billig mit Stillschweigen; inzwischen habe der König geargwohnet: daß gegen den Prinzen jemand dergleichen Reden geführet haben müßte; weswegen Er etwas hart angelaßen, solches zu bekennen; Er hat aber keinen genannt; indessen soll der Kriegs Rath Lindener als Informator, deswegen ein scharfes Bad haben ausstehen müßen.
English translation, because I need you to understand this if google doesn't deliver: It's also told that the second royal prince the other day during drilling grew exhausted when an officer was supposed to teach him all the right grips, and hadn't wanted to continue; then the King came to him, he told him, if you don't want to drill anymore, you'll have to return your sword, to which the Prince replied: Dear Papa! I want to return it at once! and the King answered: Wilhelm! Then you can't be an officer! To which the Prince supposedly returned, I don't care for it, my dear Papa orders his officers' heads to be cut off. What then happened should rather be covered with silence; by now the King suspects someone has been talking in front of the Prince with such speeches, and he's approached him somewhat harshly to confess to this; but (AW) did not provide anyone's name; but still, the Councillor Lindener as the likely informant has been in hot waters because of this.
Edited 2020-09-30 15:46 (UTC)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Leafing through these reports, I keep thinking "OMG Mildred has to see this"
Lol, I checked my email this morning right before I had two consecutive meetings, and when I got to this line and saw the length of the write-up, I had to stop, because otherwise I wasn't going to be able to focus on work. :P
Just from flipping through the pdf before handing it over, I saw that Stratemann looked like he had potentially interesting stuff on the royal family, and of course the 1728-1733 dates meant that I knew I didn't have to ask you to tell me about the parts that you knew would be Relevant to My Interests (TM). ;)
But now I have read this, and wooooow.
First I have to say, you go, eight-year-old AW! You tell your dad off!
What then happened should rather be covered with silence
Um. I hope this doesn't but fear that it does mean that AW got a beating. :(
Also, Brunswick envoy guy, we count on you for Rococo frankness! Silence is for Victorians. :P
But yeah, poor AW. He had to intercede for a long fellow, then FW did that "I'm going to cut off your fingers" joke that it took AW a minute to decide was a joke, and now Katte. :/
Ihro Hoheit haben nicht Ursache um Vergebung zu bitten, weil Sie mir nichts zu wieder gethan und ich selbst meines Todes Ursache bin.
Yet another slight variant on the last words! The new part is "I myself am the cause of my death." This is consistent with "Not Fritz's fault, but also not FW's fault, definitely God punishing me for my ambitions." [ETA: To be fair, he didn't actually say "punish", he went for something a little less self-critical. What he said, as I recall, was that God was using him as a tool in his grand divine plan to illustrate the vanity of human ambitions, which is theologically different.]
I'm still with cahn that Hans Heinrich is trying to forgive FW, not Fritz. :P
So how come his intel on the execution is suddenly dead on? S., you are a man of mystery.
My theory is that the Danish ambassador, von Johnn, who wrote *his* envoy report on November 11, and who evidently leaked the letters and an eyewitness description to Cologne, so that EVERYONE could know about it, was going, "You know what he did? You know what that bastard did?" to his fellow envoys. November 11 to November 25 is two weeks for Stratemann to have gotten the info, directly or indirectly, from the guy who wanted everyone to know what FW did.
Okay, so my German reading list just got a little longer. :P Thank you for this!
ETA: OH WAIT. I just realized that November 25 is when you said S reads the letters; November 11 is the date of the Katte execution entry. WELL THEN. Seckendorff's and Dickens' envoy reports also date to November 11, per Koser. I have to conclude at this point that all the envoys found out that day, or the day before. And I'm starting to suspect some of them were talking to each other.
Oh, that's right, Lavisse says Sauveterre obviously based his execution report on Dickens', because he didn't have good intel of his own. (Sauveterre was Rottembourg's secretary, who took over for Rottembourg after he left, and was apparently much less proactive than his former boss.) So if Dickens is talking to Sauveterre and the latter is basing his report on the former's, and Stratemann's is very similar to von Johnn's and *suddenly* S has very detailed info and access to letters where before he had nothing...I'm going with: Katte's execution was a shocking event that got everyone gossiping, and people shared notes.
Moreover, the Danish envoys were, from what I've seen, unhappy with FW and vice versa during 1730 for a number of reasons (including the usual FW recruiting in their territory reason). Since von Johnn's eyewitness report is nearly verbatim the same as the Cologne pamphlet, even more so than Stratemann's, I'm in agreement with Koser that Johnn is the most likely leaker, and since Løvenørn is suspected of tipping off Katte, I can't imagine Johnn would hesitate to share this info, which was, after all, meant to be public. *And* I'm speculating that Johnn might actually have been annoyed with FW's fanboy and wanted to try to clear some of the stars out of his eyes. :P
Stratemann's strategy, in contrast, got three children of his duke married to three children of FW, including the two most politically important ones, so...I guess that paid off. :P
Btw, I was googling Løvenørn just to get the characters that aren't on my keyboard, because I'm oddly lazy about random technical things :P, and I saw that he died in February 1740. That makes even more sense of why Fritz in 1739 is asking Fouqué, who's about to join Danish service, if he has any news on Løvenørn. I wonder if Fritz heard he was sick. In any case, as I've pointed out, Fritz didn't see Løvenørn after 1730 that I know of, and to still be asking after him in 1739 speaks of some fondness.
We know you tried, Løvenørn.
(If I don't get a lot of German done today, detective work is why. ;) )
Son of ETA: Let's not forget that Johnn and the pamphlet he leaked have the only variant of Katte's last words (so far) to mention FW, i.e., "If I had ten lives, I would give them all to reconcile Your Royal Highness with your lord father the King." Johnn: not a fan!
English translation, because I need you to understand this if google doesn't deliver:
I applaud your priorities, and also the sense of urgency you managed to convey in the word "need." :D I extremely needed to understand that, so thank you very much for the translation.
- There were lots of rumors in 1729 that Fritz would be allowed to travel to France and Italy, but nothing came out of it.
- there's a lot about the squashed desertion/rebellion among the Long Fellows in early 1730 and the various gruesome executions; Stratemann being the Pollyanna of envoys, he says later when reporting on SD's bad state during the last months of her pregnancy (remember, that family scene where Wilhelmine gets forgiven by FW etc) that clearly, the Queen is distressed because she was so worried about her husband and son being in danger from those evil conspirators
- actual comment from Fritz on this incident: It is said that the Crown Prince confessed to his confidant, literally: If it was up to me, I'd open all the gates at Potsdam and would announce: now all the scoundrels can go wherever they please and run, honest men could stay, and would be rewarded according to their merits and behavior in the future.
(This reminds me of a famous King Fritz speech just before Leuthen.)
- Stratemann in general reports incidents with members of the army and the staff; in 1728, an unlucky page forgot FW's overcoat and it rained. That guy got beaten. In 1730, one Potsdam Giant committed suicide in the room where the tobacco parliament was held (obviously not while it was in session) by hanging himself, because he had been publically humiliated by his superior officer, and FW was incensed and ordered his body being dragged through the streets and thrown on the dungheap; the guy was born in Tyrol and a Catholic, says our envoy, which makes me conclude he must have been kidnapped.
- in l729, rumor has it the recalled Suhm has ended up at the Fortress Königstein (I've been there, remember the photos), and Stratemann observes philosophically that if true, this would not be surprising, since Suhm was "a creature of Minister Flemming" and when there's a change of minister people often fall; now, Flemming was August's most important minister and majorly responsible of Countess' Cosel's downfall back in the day as he hated her and intrigued against her; the incoming new prime minister was the famous Count Brühl, whose houses Fritz will licence for plunder and whose wife he'll clash with in the 7 Years War
- Dr. Willers, according to Stratemann the guy who taught both Wilhelmine and Fritz in English in preparation for their marriages, is sent away (with honors) from Potsdam in February 1730
- considerate husband FW, when his wife is sick, tells her, sounding a lot like his son later: She should get rid of Dr. Stahlen, he (FW) wanted to be her Medicus; she should not drink so much coffee and drink nothing but hot soup instead, then her illness would pass. The Queen promised to do this and asked for the hot soup; and the following day, her condition improved.
- as reported by Wilhelmine in her memoirs, there's a message from Fritz of Wales swearing his (sight unseen) love for her and that she's the only one for him; both she and Fritz are supposed to stay in England for a year after their marriages and then Fritz gets to travel (again, according to what S has heard about the conditions for the ENglish marriages in 1730)
- Charles Hotham Sr. has a very FW experience: When the King had lunched eight days ago with the English envoy du Bourgue, there was a lot of hard drinking; and since his Majesty emptied a cup toasting the King of England's health directed at the Chevalier Hotham, the envoy demanded an equally large cup and asked for permission to toast his Majesty's health as well; which he put to the test, but holdling and emptying this put even his coworkers on week feet, but he still managed to keep his countenance; though at last his legs could not carry him anymore, and he had to be carried to his coach.
- from our loyal correspondance from Brunswick, more idyllic Hohenzollern family scenes, as the birth of Ferdinand is used by people to petition the King while offering their congratulations: Many petitions are being given to the Queen on this occasion, one of which I want to mention; for the youngest princess, Amalie, had been given by her nurse a memorandum in which she recommended and asked for her husband, who'd been a wine trader and whose trade had been ruined, to be hired by the royal cellar; ; but since the Princess Amalie couldn't quite read out the petition, the Princess Ulrike took it into her hands and adressed the King thusly: My dear Papa! I, too, come in order to ask for a huge favor. Amalie's nurse doesn't have any bread and asks for her husband to be given a lowly emmployment. Princess Amalie, also present, throws herself on the ground before the King and sadly says: "Oh yes! Dear Papa! Bread, bread for my nurse! which the King replies thusly: Don't bother me like this, you shall be granted all and your nurse shall have bread.
- post catastrophe: Löwenör (Strateman's spelling of the name) is in disgrace: The Danish envoy v. Löwenöhr, whom the King used to like always, has not been allowed to come before the King's grace anymore since he supposedly knew of a design il favoured by the King, and didn't report it. Now he lives basically incognito and it is believed he'll soon return again to his sick sovereign.
- Stratemann reports the story of the soldier who lights the candle again for Fritz after extinguishing it according to FW's order in that month of November when he suddenly has all the goods
- in the same entry as he reports the return of Major von Schach from Küstrin, S has heard a rumor about Peter Keith: It is also said: that Lieutenant v. Keit, who'd made himself invisible in Wesel in the month of August and withdrew to Holland and furtherly to England, has become a naturalized citzen there and has been equipped by his Great-British Majesty with a company. I guess this man congratulates himself heartily that he has escaped from a great anger in this country and now finds himself in such happy circumstances.
- There were lots of rumors in 1729 that Fritz would be allowed to travel to France and Italy, but nothing came out of it.
Per Lavisse, these discussions apparently went far enough that in February 1730, the French government officially said, "We'd love to have you visit," which has been taken to mean that they were offering him asylum during his escape attempt, but what they really meant was, "If FW gives you permission."
(This reminds me of a famous King Fritz speech just before Leuthen.)
It does! But even with the Fritz method you only get a one-time deal; desertion at other times is Not On.
in 1728, an unlucky page forgot FW's overcoat and it rained. That guy got beaten.
Oops. I hope it wasn't my favorite FW page!
In 1730, one Potsdam Giant committed suicide in the room where the tobacco parliament was held (obviously not while it was in session) by hanging himself, because he had been publically humiliated by his superior officer
ZOMG. Also, agree he was kidnapped.
in l729, rumor has it the recalled Suhm
Interesting! I just looked up the date of this envoy, and it's October 15, 1729. My other sources have him continuing to be official envoy until January 1730, with a co-envoy from mid-September 1729 on.
Dr. Willers, according to Stratemann the guy who taught both Wilhelmine and Fritz in English
Ooh, English lessons for Fritz. I've always wondered how much English he actually knew. He had no problem spouting off about what an inferior language it was, but Fritz's specialty was always uninformed opinions. And even beyond FW's refusal to let him become properly educated (in contrast to Wilhelmine), Fritz doesn't seem to have been linguistically gifted.
since the Princess Amalie couldn't quite read out the petition, the Princess Ulrike took it into her hands and adressed the King thusly:
Awww! Go Ulrike. Those two do get the cute stories together. cahn, Amalie would have been 6, and Ulrike about to turn 10.
Löwenör (Strateman's spelling of the name)
He's so hard to Google because there are like 6 spellings of his name!
- Stratemann reports the story of the soldier who lights the candle again for Fritz after extinguishing it according to FW's order in that month of November when he suddenly has all the goods
Ooh! That is the earliest and only contemporary account of that we have. So it was definitely predates the Fouqué visit in the following year, and since our only evidence for Fouqué letting Fritz use his candles past lights-out is Fouqué's grandson, I wonder if this story got passed down orally and changed a little to give him credit. Of course, the officer extinguishing Fritz's candle may well have just decided to leave Fouqué's candle lit on that occasion and not relight Fritz's, but it wouldn't have been necessary. Even in the cell, Fritz later reports to Wilhelmine that he was reading with a lamp, and that was before Katte's death (at least so we've deduced).
Though I have to wonder...if Stratemann knows about this candle-lighting at this early date, does FW know about this? Does he (try to) put a stop to it?
has become a naturalized citzen there and has been equipped by his Great-British Majesty with a company.
I don't know about the company, but the rest checks out.
I guess this man congratulates himself heartily that he has escaped from a great anger in this country and now finds himself in such happy circumstances.
I guess so! Though he's still nervous enough to withdraw to Dublin.
The tall guys thing always makes me laugh when it's about how weird FW is, but not when it's about, well, the tall guys :(
When the King had lunched eight days ago with the English envoy du Bourgue, there was a lot of hard drinking; and since his Majesty emptied a cup toasting the King of England's health directed at the Chevalier Hotham, the envoy demanded an equally large cup and asked for permission to toast his Majesty's health as well; which he put to the test, but holdling and emptying this put even his coworkers on week feet, but he still managed to keep his countenance; though at last his legs could not carry him anymore, and he had to be carried to his coach.
Heh! Man, FW.
Okay, I liked that story about Ulrike and Amalie :P :)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
I knew you'd like the AW story. :) But yes, I'm afraid this might not have ended too well for little AW, favourite or not. All the more impressive he didn't give up his source regardless.
Speaking of sources: according to the preface, Stratemann hung out with Seckendorf a lot, which makes sense because at this point Braunschweig and Habsburg interests were still aligned (and remember, MT's mother the Empress was a born EC von Braunschweig-Bevern). So he could have the intel from Johnn, but he could also have it from Seckendorf. Though why Seckendorf should suddenly provide him with the real goods in this particular month, and not before, I don't know, so it might be the Danes after all. (If he risked hanging out with in disgrace Løvenørn.)
One more thing about the preface: editor Richard Wolff here and in the footnotes complains about the "harsh and unloving" way Wilhelmine writes about her parents, and how the picture she paints of them is surely proven wrong by all these heartwarming stories about indulgent father FW....
...which reminds me: it really shows in all these sources (not just the ones about the Hohenzollern but also the British ones) how much parents dealing out verbal abuse to their children was treated very differently to children talking badly about their parents (or just talking back) - and not just in the 18th century but still in the 20th. Anyway, it doesn't seem to occur to Editor Wolff that one reason why Stratemann focuses to much on reporting cute anecdotes about the smaller kids is that anything he could say about the older ones (other than in euphemisms, like Wilhelmine being sick throughout the second half of 1730) would not sound good. He already had managed to secure the marriage with Charlotte (whose engagement he reports on) for his Duke, and was presumably gunning for Fritz, and if his mail got opened by Prussians, he really did not want to be found spouting criticism of FW, would be my guess.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
But yes, I'm afraid this might not have ended too well for little AW, favourite or not. All the more impressive he didn't give up his source regardless.
That's what I was thinking. Though if he's worried that his source might get their head cut off, maybe that contributed. :/
UGH FW.
Me when FW does something: Ugh, FW.
Me when Fritz does something: Oh, Fritz.
:P
So he could have the intel from Johnn, but he could also have it from Seckendorf. Though why Seckendorf should suddenly provide him with the real goods in this particular month, and not before, I don't know, so it might be the Danes after all.
Good point, it could have been Seckendorff. We have no data on what he knew, because his November 11 report just says that on November 6, Katte's head was cut off below Fritz's window, and Fritz had to watch, and that there's hope that Fritz is about to be freed, because FW is looking for some people (lit. "Cavaliers") to go to him.
Whereas the Johnn report has all the details that make it clear it was from an eyewitness, as does Stratemann.
An important difference between the two is that Johnn (like the pamphlet) has the "if I had ten lives to give," whereas S's is more generic. But that could also reflect bias: Johnn's makes Katte look good and FW look bad, and S's has Katte explicitly blame himself and not just exonerate Fritz (the only report so far to do so). Also, this:
1731 pamphlet presumably based on Johnn: "Mein gnädigster Cron-prinz sie haben nicht Ursach mich um Verzeihung zu bitten" Stratemann: "Ihro Hoheit haben nicht Ursache um Vergebung zu bitten"
But since we don't have Seckendorff's account of the details of the execution, it's really hard to say whether Stratemann's is closer to one or the other.
(If he risked hanging out with in disgrace Løvenørn.)
But if Wikipedia is to be trusted, he wouldn't have had to! Løvenørn was back in Denmark by November. It would have been Johnn passing on the goods.
how much parents dealing out verbal abuse to their children was treated very differently to children talking badly about their parents (or just talking back) - and not just in the 18th century but still in the 20th
Yeah, in Wilhelmine's memoirs, she says there was no excuse for mocking her father behind his back, because no matter what your parents do, children should never forget the respect they owe them. Needless to say, I disagree with the notion that only punching down is morally acceptable, which is very convenient for the people who get to make the rules. ;)
doesn't seem to occur to Editor Wolff that one reason why Stratemann focuses to much on reporting cute anecdotes about the smaller kids is that anything he could say about the older ones (other than in euphemisms, like Wilhelmine being sick throughout the second half of 1730) would not sound good.
Sigh. Of course not.
He already had managed to secure the marriage with Charlotte (whose engagement he reports on) for his Duke, and was presumably gunning for Fritz, and if his mail got opened by Prussians, he really did not want to be found spouting criticism of FW, would be my guess.
Totally agree.
Edited 2020-10-02 22:54 (UTC)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
To which the Prince supposedly returned, I don't care for it, my dear Papa orders his officers' heads to be cut off.
Wow! Go AW.
Envoys have it ALL! Seriously, if you'd told me early last year that I'd be eagerly jumping out of bed one morning because we just uncovered a new envoy and I want to see if selenak has written up the reports yet...well, because I'm such a nerd, I would have believed you, but I would have been very surprised. :D
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Given S. earlier reports all those imminent pardons, the turnaround to "FW totally could have made it worse!" (i.e. FW's own argument) is especially startling.
I don't remember if I've mentioned this before, but Peter Keith was "hanged in effigy." Hanged. Meaning his picture was put up on the gallows. Meaning if they'd caught him, his extremely unimportant family was evidently not getting *his* sentence commuted to a clean beheading. :/
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
And let's not forget the delights of getting your guts drawn out with glowing pliers, which I seem to recall was one of those things FW said Katte deserved if not for his family.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Mildred, you want to know why I find Fritz more congenial than FW even though they can both be terrible? This kind of thing is why! (Well, also, because Fritz can be charming and FW just can't, at least not in a way I recognize.)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Yeah, like Catherine the Great said in her memoirs, he had qualities to respect as a king but none that made him lovable as a human being...
For all that Fritz's terribleness resulted in a great deal more suffering on a large scale (a million is a statistic), he also had positives for me to latch onto. Which is why I'm all "My (problematic) FAVE!" to Fritz and "DIE DIE DIE" to FW, unfair as that may be.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
I did not forget that, but what I misremembered was it that fell under the list of things Grumbkow convinced FW he couldn't legally do. Now that I look it up again, the pliers were totally legal and used (including against Potsdam Giants) once the party was found guilty; it was the use of torture during the interrogation that was illegal. So...I can only conclude that there's a good chance Peter would have been torn apart by red-hot pliers before being hanged.
RUN PETER RUN
You know, it occurred to me a while back that maybe Peter hanging out in a room in Dublin reading books for years without socializing much was only partly because he enjoyed that sort of thing, and partly because he was still worried about being caught. Since that was why he had left London in the first place.
I'm glad that when he came back to London, circa 1734, he considered it safe to hang out in society with intellectuals, and that the stay in Portugal was for the climate and not because only that was far enough away to be out of FW's reach.
ETA: Also. Do you think FW would have made Fritz watch?
Edited 2020-10-05 02:18 (UTC)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
That depends. Has Katte already been executed? Or would Peter be executed first? Because I think FW would leave it at one example, seeing as Fritz then gets a breakdown and everyone at Küstrin assures FW he's learned his lesson. (So to speak.) I don't think he'd have gone through the trouble of sending Peter to Küstrin if Katte has already died, because he needed to tell himself he was harsh but fair, not gratitiously cruel. Also executing Peter in Berlin as the mutinous/deserting Potsdam Giants at the start of the year had been would serve the purpose of discouraging desertion among the army per se.
If Peter gets captured early on before Katte's execution, otoh, all bets are off. Even FW letting the tribunal's judgment on Katte stand (i.e. a life sentence, amounting to "however long FW lives" sentence), because he could have had a boyfriend executed in front of Fritz without grieving one of his trusted and loyal milistary an (Hans Heinrich) and grieving the only guy from his father's administration he really liked (Grandpa Wartensleben).
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
because he could have had a boyfriend executed in front of Fritz without grieving one of his trusted and loyal milistary an (Hans Heinrich) and grieving the only guy from his father's administration he really liked (Grandpa Wartensleben).
:(
Yet another "break it differently" AU.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Oh nooooo :( Heh, the funny thing is that I wouldn't have minded Peter Keith dying instead of Katte nearly as much if mildred hadn't convinced me through fic that he was really cool :P
Continuing with my job moonlighting as Peter Keith's biographer, some developments this week.
* Remember when we found his eulogy and it said he spent three years at Trinity College in Dublin, but mostly reading alone in a room, and I said I *thought* it sounded like he didn't enroll but was there informally, but I couldn't be sure? I've finally managed to confirm that.
...By emailing Trinity College and asking the manuscripts department to check their archives. :D They had no record of him in the admissions lists, nor in the catalogue of letters to, from, or related to him.
But now we know! This had been bugging me enough that when the eulogy turned up while I was writing "Lovers", I tweaked a sentence in the first draft to be ambiguous instead of a blanket statement that he never attended university.
I admit that when I found he had a connection to Trinity College, I was delighted, because there are many archives in Germany I would like to email with questions like this, but I don't speak German well enough to carry on a correspondence. But English-language archivists are going to get emails from me. Or as iberiandoctor once put it, dubconning people into doing research for my fandom. ;)
* In the course of this correspondence, I found a sentence in Wikipedia that was added during the latest round of edits, stating that Fritz refused a suggestion from the British to appoint Peter Keith envoy on the grounds that Keith wasn't experienced enough. I was initially skeptical, because Wikipedia, but then I saw the citation was Koser.
Sure enough! Koser cites his source as an exchange in the Political Correspondence, which goes like this:
Letter from the British to Podewils: Please tell Fritz we think his new envoy should be Peter Keith. "A man like him would have more credit with us than a more skilled but less well-intentioned negotiator."
Fritz to Podewils: I just bet he would. Too bad it's in *my* best interests to send a negotiator who's more skilled and less well-intentioned toward them.
In more detail, slightly paraphrased, Fritz's letter was very interesting:
I'm very surprised at this letter you forwarded. After perusing it closely, I have to assume that either Keith has been intriguing and the English were happy to oblige him, or, what is more likely, the English don't want me sending someone who can penetrate their system and shed light on their affairs for me. Someone like Keith would be very convenient for them, since they regard him as half a Briton, and since he has no idea of what it is to negotiate, they would do whatever they wanted. And that's not even counting that he's poor, which is a consideration that drives out all others.
Meaning that he's bribable because you won't pay him and he's not independently wealthy? I guess you would know all about that driving out all other considerations, Fritz. :P
Fritz: Look, I lied to Dickens about my debts, got all the money I wanted, and all I had to do was promise not to try to escape, but I made sure there was a loophole and I tried to escape anyway. It's not that hard to accept bribes ethically if you're willing to double-cross your bribers!
So...while I agree that like Lehndorff, Peter is probably not someone I would send to do hard negotiating, it is interesting that both Fritz and the English view him as half Briton (remember Lehndorff saying he'd picked up English manners), and Fritz doesn't trust him not to be intriguing with the English behind his back.
Oh! I should mention the date. February 7, 1747. So during that 1740s period when their relationship was evidently at an all-time low.
I do agree with Fritz that it's much more likely that the English wanted a favorable envoy, than that Peter was scheming. And it's interesting that they thought of him ten years after his stay (1736-1740 in Portugal, remember), and after his patron, Queen Caroline, had died in 1737.
Peter Keith's son, in contrast, later gets to be envoy to the Sardinian court in the 1770s, I guess because he's fully Prussian in Fritz's mind and has some idea of what it is to negotiate.
Incidentally, this reminds me that Fritz sent Algarotti to Turin in 1741, but didn't entrust him with full envoy credentials or official responsibility, but told him to go secretly and try to find out what he could without letting on why, but of course no one in power would talk politics with him because he didn't have an official position, and he was such a celebrity that everyone immediately knew where he was and guessed why, and so that was a disaster.
All of which is to say that Fritz generally doesn't trust the people he met socially with anything resembling power. Which is why Fredersdorf getting to be spymaster and treasurer is so unusual.
* 1747 was also the year that Peter became curator at the Academy of Sciences. His predecessor died in March, so he wasn't yet curator when this letter was sent.
I'd always taken that appointment to mean that Fritz was at least vaguely favorably disposed toward Keith getting to pursue his intellectual dreams by holding what we now call academic-adjacent positions. And I put a line in "Lovers" to reflect that.
But after reading the Maupertuis biography, I find that Fritz gave Maupertuis a free hand with appointments, unlike his successors. I had been basing my impression on Fritz's involvement on the fact that after Maupertuis died, the Academy had to submit its lists of proposed members to Fritz for approval or veto.
So now that we know that Maupertuis and Keith were at least on good enough terms that the Pollyanna of eulogists could describe his former colleague Keith as a valuable friend to his current boss Maupertuis (i.e. take with a grain of salt), it's possible Fritz had nothing to do with this appointment.
Since I read the Maupertuis bio as research for "Lovers", I removed all references to Fritz approving membership, but I left in Peter's gratitude for the academic-adjacent positions, because if my escapist fic isn't for shipping my ship, what is it for? :P
Plus, Peter became an honorary member on February 16, 1744. Fritz started micromanaging the institute in the absence of Maupertuis (who had left after the debacle of getting captured at Mollwitz) in mid January, 1744. And everyone who'd been part of the self-organized society in 1743 was immediately grandfathered in on January 23. And Maupertuis wouldn't show up in Berlin again until August 1745.
So it seems very much like Fritz personally approved Peter's membership, even if not the curatorship.
* Oh! Koser says that Fritz kept Peter "far from service in his army as well as from his person." Now, you guys know my theory on this, but I have some evidence: he gave him a court position first, evidently with SD, and a commission as an officer when Peter finally asked for it. If he was trying to keep Peter out of the army because, what, he thought he was half Briton? Why would he let him in when he asked?
Besides, I just got to the part in Oster where Oster says Wilhelmine probably expected Fritz to summon her immediately to court, and she was disappointed when he didn't. (This I believe, because I've always been surprised that he didn't.) He did summon Algarotti, Euler, Maupertuis, etc. to court...and then proceeded to ignore them while he went off to war. You know if Suhm had lived, he would have been in this group.
So I still think Fritz was trying to keep Keith from dying, not keeping him at a distance from his army per se, and getting distracted by war and politics, not personally avoiding him out of displeasure. I think Keith got the standard Fritz treatment of low pay, being taken for granted that he'd be around when Fritz had time for him, lack of clear communication about his intent, and some favors that were much bigger in Fritz's mind than in the recipient's.
* Finally, the odds of me finishing the fix-it fic, which I haven't written since May (I had to drop it for RMSE and then German, because I have a limited number of projects I can work on at one time--you'd think I could do a little each day, or alternate, but it doesn't work like that1), are low, but I'm still enjoying plotting it. And I thought you would like to know that this week, I finally came up with a way for Peter and Ariane to meet in the same year that they met in real life. <3
Now, she still has to agree to 1) move to France, 2) convert, if they want to get married, but that's handwavable with "love".:D
Peter may also have to convert; I'm toying with the idea of Fritz, Wilhelmine, and Katte converting while privately sneering at the whole thing, but Peter being a much less visible and slightly more devout individual who silently reads his Bible at home and doesn't attend illicit Huguenot services and just doesn't go to Mass...until suddenly he needs recognition of his marriage. I think I like it, because it shows that the love goes both ways, just as the understanding about his affairs with men involves compromise. (SOMEONE has to be a good husband. :P)
1. My advisor in grad school very much wanted me to finish my dissertation and also turn chapters into published journal articles at the same time, and I told her those were both lovely ideas but that it was either/or, and since one got me to a PhD and the other didn't, I finished the dissertation and did not turn the chapters into articles.
there are many archives in Germany I would like to email with questions like this, but I don't speak German well enough to carry on a correspondence.
Email away. They all speak English. Seriously. Knowledge of other foreign languages like French, or Latin, or Spanish, or Russian, or Greek depends on what type of school you visit, but everyone going to a German school who is younger than, oh, 6o, had to take English to a level where they can correspond in and talk it.
The English proposing Peter Keith as envoy: that is very interesting. Alas, 47 is way too late for Hervey (he died in the early 1740s) to consult. In addition to Caroline being dead, Sir Robert Walpole who was PM when Peter was there is out of the government, there are new ministers all around as far as I know. So who did make the suggestion? Of course, an irresistable fanwank occurs to me: Peter did meet Algarotti....and young Andrew Mitchell. By 1747, Andrew Mitchell was rising in the ranks of the foreign office - not yet enough to be envoy himself, but he was certainly forming connections with Lords Holderness and Newcastle. Maybe he recced Peter?
Fritz the paranoid being Fritz the paranoid: unsurprising, if bad for Peter.
All of which is to say that Fritz generally doesn't trust the people he met socially with anything resembling power. Which is why Fredersdorf getting to be spymaster and treasurer is so unusual.
Definitely Fritz' favourite husband, too.
I finally came up with a way for Peter and Ariane to meet in the same year that they met in real life.
Lovely! I was wondering about her fate in your AU.
Why do I feel like in somewhere between a day and a week we are going to see a LOT more action in this already action-packed fandom? ;)
Of course, an irresistable fanwank occurs to me: Peter did meet Algarotti....and young Andrew Mitchell. By 1747, Andrew Mitchell was rising in the ranks of the foreign office - not yet enough to be envoy himself, but he was certainly forming connections with Lords Holderness and Newcastle. Maybe he recced Peter?
YES PLEASE. And those of you who might write fic about Peter Keith, you know who you are, could totally put it in the fic :D
Why do I feel like in somewhere between a day and a week we are going to see a LOT more action in this already action-packed fandom?
Lol. I can see why you might think so, but it took me 4 months to finally email Trinity after finding the eulogy, and no, it didn't take me 4 months to think of it. I immediately thought of it. It took me 4 months to get around to. So...we'll see.
And those of you who might write fic about Peter Keith, you know who you are, could totally put it in the fic :D
LOLOL. On a totally unrelated note, I'm looking forward to Yuletide. :D
Email away. They all speak English. Seriously. Knowledge of other foreign languages like French, or Latin, or Spanish, or Russian, or Greek depends on what type of school you visit, but everyone going to a German school who is younger than, oh, 6o, had to take English to a level where they can correspond in and talk it.
You know, English-speaking Germans always tell me this, but every time I go to Germany and have to rely on English to get around, I find myself completely unable to get simple questions like "How much are tickets?" or "Where are the spoons?" answered outside of airports and hotels. I've always figured it's like algebra and geometry being required subjects in the US: as long as you scrape through the class, you don't have to be able to perform on the spot decades later.
That said, I'm willing to grant that archivists replying to emails are more likely than, say, people staffing a museum on foot, to have the necessary competence in English to make up for my lack of German. Plus, if they're even willing to reply in German, I'm in a much better position to understand the answer than I was when put on the spot with by people speaking German to me ten years ago.
I will give it a try!
(Btw, it's for this reason that I would like to get my comprehension of spoken German up to basic proficiency someday--not now, I can only do one thing at a time--namely that people kept speaking German to me in Germany and not being able to switch to English when it was clear I hadn't a clue what they were saying, and that made for far more stressful situations than did my inability to make myself understood in German.)
So who did make the suggestion?
Preuss's footnote is kind of complicated, and requires more research than I've had time to do yet, but at any rate, it doesn't tell me whose *idea* it was, just the lines of communication along which the idea traveled to Fritz. So Villiers sent a letter to the Dutch envoy von Ginkel, who sent it to Podewils, who sent it to Fritz.
So far I've figured out that Villiers is this guy, who was British envoy to Berlin from 1746 to 1748. Von Ginkel I haven't turned up yet. So there's a chance Villiers knew Peter personally (maybe Peter hung out with British envoys to practice his English and ask after people he knew? or scheme for positions as envoy to Britain??), but I feel like someone in England still would have had to think this was a good idea.
But maybe it was Villiers' idea, and he acted on it unilaterally.
Oh, cahn, I forgot to spell out that when Algarotti is sent to Turin and Keith's son to Sardinia, those are the same place. The court of Sardinia was in Turin during our period (like Brandenburg-Prussia, it was a composite state).
Of course, an irresistable fanwank occurs to me: Peter did meet Algarotti....and young Andrew Mitchell. By 1747, Andrew Mitchell was rising in the ranks of the foreign office - not yet enough to be envoy himself, but he was certainly forming connections with Lords Holderness and Newcastle. Maybe he recced Peter?
But I'm totally on board with this! Besides, I do think before you suggest to a foreign king that he send a particular envoy to your country, you maybe get a thumbs up from your court, in case said prospective envoy created all kinds of bad feelings there ten years ago that you don't know about?
Fritz the paranoid being Fritz the paranoid: unsurprising, if bad for Peter.
My thoughts exactly. I really do hope things warmed up between them in the 1750s, but it's quite possible that you're right that his memoirs "got disappeared" because they were too critical of post-1740 Fritz.
Definitely Fritz' favourite husband, too.
<3
Lovely! I was wondering about her fate in your AU.
Originally, she had none, but then I developed her for that fic, and now I think they're really good for each other and I ship them. :D So I spent a while banging my head against the question of how to get them to meet up at the right time, and finally came up with a solution.
Fredersdorf, alas, hasn't found a way into this fic, but given that Fritz gets to live with Wilhelmine (who, like him, never marries) AND Katte AND Keith AND (to at least some degree that I haven't decided) Suhm, Fredersdorf/Fritz might just have to fall through the cracks in this AU.
I thought his name rang a bell among Mitchell's correspondants, and sure enough, they were pals. Andrew Bisset - who just a page earlier is withering about Horace Walpole the Younger (aka the other bitchy memoirist of the era), because Walpole in turn had dissed both Villiers and Mitchell in favour of Hanbury Williams:
It might, indeed, have been supposed, that this, namely to be the carrier of tittle-tattle would be the beau ideal of a diplomatist, as understood by such a person as that egregious scandal-monger and retailer of Court small-talk—tittle-tattle of the smallest and dirtiest kind—Horace Walpole, the younger. Accordingly, we find him delivering himself of the following observations:—
"Every attempt of our sending men of parts to circumvent him had succeeded ill; the King of Prussia was so far a little genius that he dreaded trying himself against talents. For this reason he used Legge and Sir Charles Williams in the most ungracious manner. Lord Hyndford, Mr. Villiers and Mitchell were the men that suited him ; and had he known him, he would not have feared Yorke. But the King made Mitchell introduce him, would talk to him on no business, and entertained him with nothing but a panegyric on Mitchell.”* Let any one who knows anything of the characters of the two men, imagine Frederic of Prussia circumvented by Sir Charles Hanbury Williams.
Bisset then goes on to say that if he wanted wits, Fritz had Voltaire, he didn't need a small scale wit like Hanbury Williams. Otoh, he liked Mitchell for being a relative straight shooter among diplomats and a brave man, and surely Villliers was of the same type. Then Bisset goes on to quote a few letters from Villiers written to Mitchell during the 7 Years War, when Villiers had become Lord Hyde: We have no doubt it was the same manly frankness, joined to good sense, which made Villiers, as well as Mitchell, an efficient negotiator with Frederic. The following letters from him, when Lord Hyde, to Mitchell, we have great pleasure in being enabled to publish, as affording very unequivocal testimony to the private worth and sociable and amiable qualities of both the parties. As regards the writer they show, we think, in a very unostentatious way, both head and heart.(...)
MY DEAR MITCHELL, 27. June 1761
Though I can’t say that I am fond of unnecessary writing or unnecessary talking, I was happy in receiving a letter from an old friend that I love; having heard that his health which endured the follies of youth had been injured by ministerial toils. By matrimony it seems I am freed from both, and enjoy life in a plain, insignificant way, with a wife that I value, and three boys and a girl. I give no flattery and receive no favours: I am not out of humour, but see things, as far as my sight will reach, without prejudice or partiality; how long this state of annihilation will last, I can’t determine as I have taken no resolutions on it, but considering my great indolence and little merit, I shall scarce be again in an active station; so my friends will scarce ever have any thing of me, but my wishes which would have accompanied your's had I known they had tended to Augsbourg, I mean for yourself, for as to me I am happy that Lord Egremont is at the head of our ministers there. A fitter man, or one more my friend, England has none at present. Lord Granville is much as he was as to spirits and dignity, at least to us who see him daily and partially. Perhaps you would perceive that time had made its impression and lessened both. We often talk you over and wish for the stories we are to have when you return. Lord Jersey has rather more gout than he had, in other respects the same. Lord Weymouth is in the bed chamber and becomes it. H. Thynne has not yet altered his course of life. He begins to want a rich wife and a sinecure place, and I am disposed to imagine he will succeed. Notwithstanding this sameness among a few, don't conclude that it extends through the state; you will find, whenever you come among the great, many new plans and new persons. I wish my poor friends in your parts were as I left them. I often feel for you and for Fritsch as much as for any. Let those who are alive, who are not many, and fall in your way, be assured of my regard, esteem, and compassion, and be yourself convinced that I am unalterably yours, H. My wife begs her compliments of friendship and esteem. As to the business part of your letter it shall be executed; much is due to your care and friendship.
Remember, Charles Hanbury Wlliams ended his life in the third stage of syphilis, locked up as mad, so this is about disposing of those of his possessions stillin various European countries:
MY DEAR MITCHELL, 24th Sept. 1763: . I am very glad to find by your favour of the 3d, that your health is better, and that you are not so germanised but that you wish to be among us; all who know you, wish to have you, none more than my wife and myself. You will find terrible gaps in our acquaintance; death has made cruel havock ; we that remain according to Prussian discipline should stand the closer. As to the boxes in question, which have given you so much trouble, but at the same time an opportunity to show a very kind and friendly disposition, I have desired Mrs. Capel Hanbury, whose husband I believe to be an executor and abroad, to employ an agent authorized at Hamburg to receive and forward the same and to reimburse all expenses thereon. I am an entire stranger to Sir Charles Hanbury Williams' testamentary disposition, and to all the affairs of that family, or should not have left anything from you so long undone. I am, with the truest esteem, my dear Mitchell, most faithfully yours,
H.
MY DEAR MITCHELL, 1st Dec. 1763
I suppose the inclosed expresses Mr. Hanbury's sense of your obliging and friendly care of his brother's boxes, and a desire that they may be forwarded to him (who has authority from the younger brother, George, the executor, to receive them), with an assurance that he, Mr. Capel Hanbury, will reimburse, on demand, all expenses incurred on this occasion. This at least was the substance of our conversation, which he desired I would transmit, but I thought it proper that he should pay his own acknowledgments, where so much was due. This past yesterday morning in the presence of Lord Harcourt, who joined in extolling your sociable and worthy qualities, and agreed that it would be very comfortable to hear your adventures from yourself over a bottle or two of claret. If anybody besides yourself thinks of me where you are, you may confidently assert that I retain warm gratitude for Berlin, but I imagine most of my ministerial and military acquaintances are gone gradually or precipitately to their last home, and that my female friends, if any are left, too much wrinkled for one who can pick and chuse. Should ever opportunity be so blindly favourable as to permit you to lay my duty and respects at his Prussian Majesty's feet, you may with great truth add that I shall ever feel, as I ought, the honour done me by his Majesty's most gracious opinion. Is there any historian attempting to describe and keep pace with his wonderful atchievements? The death of the King of Poland, or rather the choice of a new one, will probably open a field for another volume. Was I as young and as unengaged as when I first knew that part of the world, I would again embark in that agitated sea. It is impossible not to have a kind of longing to admire so great a Prince in the midst of such important affairs; but as it is, I must be contented to tell old stories to my wife and children, and to read and explain the Gazettes. Was there any hopes of your assistance in these domestick amusements we should all be the happier. My wife joins in hearty wishes for your welfare, and in that perfect esteem with which I unalterably remain, My dear Mitchell, Most cordially yours, HYDE.
Bisset's right, Villiers comes across very sympathetic here, and in really friendly terms with Mitchell. Not to mention that he evidently has good memories of his time in Prussia. So it's both likely he befriended Peter in his own right, and/or that he could have followed a Mitchell recommendation. Bear in mind, too, that Mitchell could be absolutely withering about someone Fritz did appoint as envoy to England, to wit, Lentulus. ("The second is Major-General Lentulus (formerly in the Austrian service), a tall, handsome Swiss, very weak, very vain, and very indiscreet, but, which is worst of all, a servile flatterer, and capable of reporting to his master the greatest falsehoods, if he thinks they will please him. Of this I had the strongest proofs, when, in the year 1756, Lentulus was sent to England, to give an account of the battle of Lobositz (at which he was not present). On his return into Saxony, he made a most absurd report to the King, his master, concerning the then state of affairs in England, which, after many months labour and infinite pains, I had at last the good fortune totally to annihilate. -")
So at a guess, Peter would have been perceived by contrast by Villiers (and possibly Mitchell) as someone who wasn't just England-friendly but actually familiar with enough with the place to send reliable reports home to Prussia instead of talking rubbish and flattery a la Lentulus.
I have discovered through some googling that Mitchell, Hanbury Williams, and Villiers were among the earliest (founding?) members of the Society of Dilettanti, the club that was founded in in 1730s by a group of young English gentleman who had met on the Grand Tour, whose purpose was to further the study of Greek and Roman art and archaeology, and the one of which Walpole said, "The nominal qualification for membership is having been in Italy, and the real one, being drunk." (I actually recognized that quote from The Club!)
Not having been to Italy, Peter can't have joined, but given that he spent the years 1734-1736 (my best estimate, based on his eulogy) in London, hanging out with intellectuals, it's not unlikely he joined some sort of club.
Villiers also makes appearances in that book on Andrew Mitchell and Anglo-Prussian diplomatic relations that you were going to try to track down.
So at a guess, Peter would have been perceived by contrast by Villiers (and possibly Mitchell) as someone who wasn't just England-friendly but actually familiar with enough with the place to send reliable reports home to Prussia instead of talking rubbish and flattery a la Lentulus.
Yep, this sounds very plausible.
Is there any historian attempting to describe and keep pace with his wonderful atchievements?
:D
Yes, but some of them will be more reliable than others.
to be the carrier of tittle-tattle would be the beau ideal of a diplomatist
HEE.
if he wanted wits, Fritz had Voltaire, he didn't need a small scale wit like Hanbury Williams.
Lol! Well, it's true...
So at a guess, Peter would have been perceived by contrast by Villiers (and possibly Mitchell) as someone who wasn't just England-friendly but actually familiar with enough with the place to send reliable reports home to Prussia instead of talking rubbish and flattery a la Lentulus.
August 21st 1728 is the entry about the punished pages, plural; I also misremembered the punishment. Just before this info, there's a telling Fritz anecdote reported, apropos the portrait painted of the Russian princess Natalya which is making the rounds in Potsdam:
It was said to the Crown Prince on the 11th in jest: this princess could be a bride for him. He, however, replied: He wouldn't think of a bride for many years more, but if he had to choose one, he wouldn't allow himself to be dictated to. He would hope that his Majesty his father could imagine how he'd have liked it to get a wife forced on him against his will and would have to marry her. On the 18th, too of the King's body pages had to stand on the block for four hours at Neumarkt because they'd forgotten to bring the King's overcoat along in the morning for the parade when it had started to rain.
Stratemann includes a sympathy poem written for Fritz in late 1730. (I'll get to by whom and why.) In German. With a reply poem by Fritz. In German. Note that the poem contains nothing objectionable, they just hope Fritz will get through the dark times and that the sun of grace will shine on him again. Stratemann, interestingly, also provides the entire (French) text of the poem Katte wrote while under arrest at his regiment still in Berlin which you probably know from various biographies. Here it is:
Vers composés par Mr.de Katte, lors qu'il-etoit Prisonnier dans la Guarde des Gensd'Armes.
Cest toi fortune inconstante, fausse Divinité! Qui pour remplir nôtre attente. charme nôtre Vanité; Menteuse! dans tes promesses, Injuste! dans tes largesses, Terrible! dans tes revers, Il n'-y-a jour qui-finisse Sans nous montrer bon Caprice par mille tours divers. Celui qui la curiosité portera a lire cette ecriture apprendra que l'ecrivain a-été mit aux arrests par l'Ordre desa Majesté le 16me d'Auot 1730 non sans esperance de se revoir bientôt én liberté, quoique la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé Par le temps et la Patience En obtient les fruits d'une bonne Conscience; Si vous voulés savoir qui c'est, Le nom de Katte vous l'apprendra, Toujours constant en Esperance.
This so far is the sole passage in French. Since the next few entries are all Wilhelmine and family related, I'll fast forward here to another intriguing Katte mention, this time of Hans Heinrich, more than half a year later:
Berlin, June 31st 1731: Supposedly General Lieutenant v. Katte after leading his regiment at the revue before the King got off his horse and put his sword at the King's feet, and asked again for his demission, whereupon his majesty showed himself very much displeased. Rumor even has it (Hans Heinrich) got arrested as a consequence.
Now, obviously the arrest didn't happen - I don't think biographers would have overlooked that! -, but this is also the first time I heard about Hans Heinrich making this gesture. Since the revue was a really big public spectacle (this is also why Fritz was pissed off when Heinrich didn't salute him properly in the after the 7 Years War, remember), such a gesture would have been quite something. And does argue it's FW Hans Heinrich is struggling for forgive. Not to mention that it gives the lie to the "Hans Heinrich totally on board with FW executing his son!" version. All the more so since Stratemann is really the most FW friendly envoy ever.
Back to the winter of 1730/1731. Case in point: the same entry that has the AW anecdote also includes this story: It is said that his royal highness recently wrote a submissive letter to His Majesty his lord father, and in it, due to the now allowed changes regarding his earlier limited stay in Küstrin, has given submissive thanks, with many sayings from the bible, which is very seemly towards an once angry but now soothed father, and the King when the letter was read to him squeezed many tears from his eyes. His Majesty also supposedly declared that the entire country was open to his Fritz, he should be able to go and live within the country wherever he pleases.
This, mind, the same month that we know FW wrote the furious "if there would be 200 000 Kattes I'd have them beheaded" rant, had SD toast to England's demise and according to Guy Dickens said he was now sorry re: Katte whose death had to rest heavily on Fritz' conscience, what with Fritz being the one to blame.
S. notes that Ulrike is much in favor, being other than Charlotte FW's favourite daughter for now. So how does this family celebrate the Christmas of 1730:
December 23rd 1730: Her Majesty the Queen spent most of the day with her daughter, the oldest princess, who still hasn't recovered from her illnesss. The second and third prince, too, have come down with a strong cold and cough. The Crown Prince now presides over the government of Küstrin and reports almost daily from events there to the King's greatest pleasure. When his Royal Highness for the first time arrived at the council chamber, the second Secretary, as an acccomplished poet, had welcomed him with a few verses, whereupon the Prince briefly replied in the same fashion. These verses circulate only in a few hands, and I'm not yet allowed to get them, but I will try and will communicate them accordingly.
December 24th: The court jeweller has created presents in gold and silver in the worth of 12/m Reichstaler, of which the Queen had golden pieces for her cabinet, the princes and princesses had silver lates. Princess Charlotte, our Prince of Bevern's bride, received an expensive jewel, some silver kitchen supply, shovels and pliers, and a few pretty things to dress herself up. His Highness her groom shall receive a set of laces, next to a golden set Point d'Espange and other treats sent to him on the occasion of Holy Christ's feast. Now the Princess Ulrike had asked for a while to receive the King's portrait as a Christmas present, and it was among her gifts; when the third prince (i.e. Heinrich) noticed, he asked for a portrait as well, and did receive one, about which this princess showed herself somewhat disgusted. The King went on Christmas Eve in his own person with an entourage to the local Christmas Market and bought entertaining pleasantries for the little princes and princesses. (...) At the first day of Christmas, the widowed Madam General v. Dörfling had had carried a good bowl of cooked Sauerkraut with a roasted fat goose to the palace, as his Majestly loves to eat this dish, and on the holiday a bowl with beautiful apples, which has been received very graciously.
Okay, while I doubt Heinrich asking for Dad's portrait was about more than "big sis got something special, I'd like to have one of those as well", it does provide ammo together with the fish for supper at the start of the year if you want to make a case that FW at this early point indulged him somewhat. And of course FW going shopping for his kids shows him in full loving pater famiilias vein. Our editor chides Wilhelmine again for her harsh, unloving picture of her parents. However: at this point Stratemann still insists she's simply ill. In 1731, he'll finally admit she wasn't ill, she was locked up, for months, and I'll get to the conditions which honestly brought it home to me she really was no less imprisoned as Fritz had been, just in her own rooms. Now, in late 1730, talk is out FW wants to marry little Sophie to BayreuthFriedrich. Sophie therafter keeps getting referenced as the bride of the Erbprinz of Bayreuth. Then, on January 6th, Stratemann reports this rumor:
January 6th: After the King these last days told the Princess Sophie that the Prince Heir of Bayreuth desired to have her as his wife, she started to cry heartily and pronounced that she didn't want to marry at all, but wanted to stay with the clerical career for which she'd been meant earlier. The King supposedly returned to this: it couldn't happen, the bridegroom would soon arrive, who'd please her being a handsome prince, which the princess gave no reply to, but later towards her governess Fräulein de Joccourt sounded very sad about. Now the completely unfounded rumor is making the rounds that the oldest Princess, who is still sick, wishes to replace her sister as the future Abbess of Hertford.
This is one of the few times where I think we can pinpoint who is Stratemann's source for this story, i.e., Sophie's governess. Bear in mind Sophie is barely pubescent at this point. And destined to marry the godawful Schwedt cousin. Poor Sophie.
On January 13th, Stratemann finally admits in his report that a) Fritz' release and rejoining the family isn't so imminent after all, and b) Wilhelmine isn't sick, she's in disgrace, locked up, and still not reconciled with Dad.
Of the Crown Prince, nothing has been said, and so it doesn't seem that he will appear at the 24th on the occasion of his birthday in Potsdam after all. The oldest Princess remains completely in her room, and thus circumstances argue that a complete reconciliation on both parts is still full of impediments. Her Majesty the Queen, however, enjoys with her husband the King a most endearing complete harmony and bliss, and thus rumor has it that she's expecting another child.
Yeah, not so much, Stratemann.
January 27th: As soon as the King left for Potsdam on the 19th, the Queen went to the oldest Princess, which she hadn't seen during the fourteen days spent with the King, and this most regarded Princess, who hasn't left her room since the 27th of August, which means in five months, went downstairs for to the Queen on the following Sunday the 20th, which I guess the King must have permitted; still, one is assured that the King does not yet permit (Wilhelmine) to appear in front of him, and the much hoped for complete reconciliation with the Crown Prince still seems to be far away; and yet the young gentleman lives very pleasantly at Küstrin and is so popular among so many that the artisans and low workers have said: they want to donate a penny of their daily salaries to his royal highness; then the nobility in the entire country keeps sending food supplies; in the midst of this the King took from the Prince the sole much loved valet left and transfered the later to Halle to get an appointment as Torschreiber (Gate Secretary, literally) with 30 Reichstaler per year as a salary, about which he (the valet) pretended to be embarrassed, but in the end accepted it with devotion.
February sees the rumor that Bayreuth Friedrich (who, if you recall, isn't in Germany, he's on his Grand Tour) has died, which of course isn't true.
On March 10th, Wilhelmine is still in disgrace: The reconciliation of the oldest royal princess has still made no progress, and there isn't much hope for it; by now, the court preachers have received an order to pray with her once a week in her room, but not to preach to her. She hasn't received communion for eight months now, and since August 16th has not been allowed to see any ladies in her chamber other than the governesses of the royal princesses and the Queen's Dames d'honeur. According to rumor, she tries to pass her time with music.
Not receiving communion might not seem a harsh punishment to us, but it's actually really nasty, because if Wilhelmine had died during that time, she'd have died in a damned state. Anyway, see what I mean about Wihelmine being kept as much a prisoner as Fritz? Actually more so, since he gets to attend and work in the Küstrin government, which might not be the most thrilling of occupations but is at least something other than sit and brood in a room.
re: Hille - his being according to Stratemann "an accomplished poet" in his own right certainly puts his complaints about Fritz' poetry in a new light!
Since the revue was a really big public spectacle (this is also why Fritz was pissed off when Heinrich didn't salute him properly in the after the 7 Years War, remember), such a gesture would have been quite something. And does argue it's FW Hans Heinrich is struggling for forgive. Not to mention that it gives the lie to the "Hans Heinrich totally on board with FW executing his son!" version.
YES I KNEW IT oh Hans Heinrich :( <3
oh man I wish we'd had that report on Christmas 1730 when we'd written our fics
Her Majesty the Queen, however, enjoys with her husband the King a most endearing complete harmony and bliss
...whoa.
Anyway, see what I mean about Wihelmine being kept as much a prisoner as Fritz? Actually more so
Given none of the other ambassadors reports any marital bliss between FW and SD in late 1730/early 1731, quite the contrary, I'm mentally translating that description to "FW was extra considerate to SD in the vain hope of getting laid again, but no dice".
Incidentally, I forgot to mention, in the December 2nd 1730 entry when Stratemann is still going along with the "Wilhelmine is just really sick, not locked up in her room" pretense, he has this rumor to tell: The said princess is still bound to her sickbed, and for a few days now has been inconvenienced with undescribably strong headaches, and feels pain her her arms and legs, which everyone ascribes to a great alteration, though the fact the execution of the late Lt. v. Katte has been hidden from her, despite her often asking about him. ("ob sie sich gleich öfters nach dessen Zustand erkundigt".
Now: I'm perfectly willing to believe Wilhemine had headaches along with being locked up. She suffered from migraines often in her life, and until shortly before Katte's execution, there was a real prospect her brother would be killed. If I'm right and Madame de Joucoulles, the governess for the three youngest princesses (Amalie, Ulrike, Sophie) was Stratemann's source for the stories about the royal family, she may have tried to earn her bribery money with some truths (Wilhelmine isn't doing so well), while keeping mum about the larger point (the public hasn't seen her for months because she's basically a prisoner, too). Or Stratemann is quite aware of that (after all, the British envoy in his simultanous reports is), but in his dispatches home to Braunschweig keeps with the official version because he doesn't want to risk the newly secured Charlotte engagement by pissing FW off if his mail is read. (Not to mention that he may or may not have already had his eyes on the main marital prize, Fritz, since obviously the English marriage would not happen, and FW would look for a bride elsewhere since Fritz was still his successor.)
...but that bit about Katte is what truly intrigues me, because I can't think of why either Stratemann or his source (whether or not the source is Joucoulles) should make that up. On the contrary, a story of Wilhelmine asking repeatedly how Katte is doing could be risky to her reputation (given that FW in the big homecoming scene accused her of having an affair with him), which Stratemann at no point gives the impression of wanting to do.
I'm mentally translating that description to "FW was extra considerate to SD in the vain hope of getting laid again, but no dice".
OH GOD, you're right!
I'm laughing so hard right now.
Now: I'm perfectly willing to believe Wilhemine had headaches along with being locked up. She suffered from migraines often in her life, and until shortly before Katte's execution, there was a real prospect her brother would be killed.
Oh yeah, and in her memoirs, she recorded that she didn't know whether *she* would have to face a public interrogation. And Sonsine is getting threatened too. I'm sure she had all KINDS of psychosomatic symptoms. :/
...but that bit about Katte is what truly intrigues me, because I can't think of why either Stratemann or his source (whether or not the source is Joucoulles) should make that up. On the contrary, a story of Wilhelmine asking repeatedly how Katte is doing could be risky to her reputation (given that FW in the big homecoming scene accused her of having an affair with him)
Hmm, yes, that is interesting. And you're right, that is an unlikely thing to make up. Perhaps she thought that Katte's fate functioned as a barometer of FW's mood, as it pertained to both her and Fritz. Especially since she *was* linked to Katte in this affair: with the letters and incriminating evidence.
I'm mentally translating that description to "FW was extra considerate to SD in the vain hope of getting laid again, but no dice".
HAHAHAHA yeah I totally buy that!
...you know, Oster does kind of bring home to me what you've told me before, that FW really did love SD and the whole idea of being a family man in his own dysfunctional way. Sigh.
Fictional Fredersdorf was totally there! Also, I think what Fritz wrote to Wilhelmine just makes our respective opening scenes more plausible: if he did come, many precautions were taken.
He probably didn't want to report on fistulas!
Like selenak said in regards to "Ambassadors have it rough", there's really no way to spin that! (Though I would love to see someone try. :P)
On the 18th, too of the King's body pages had to stand on the block for four hours at Neumarkt because they'd forgotten to bring the King's overcoat along in the morning for the parade when it had started to rain.
Oh, THAT incident! That's actually ringing a bell; I've read that somewhere before.
Hmm. How many body pages does a king have at one time? I feel like we're increasing the odds that one of them was my low-key fave Peter Keith. Otoh, it says "two of", which means not all, which means perhaps not Peter. Sucks to be them regardless. (I'm just trying to do my duty as biographer.)
Stratemann, interestingly, also provides the entire (French) text of the poem Katte wrote while under arrest at his regiment still in Berlin which you probably know from various biographies.
I do, but I think this is the first time I've seen the whole thing, thank you!
Except the editor has omitted a line:
non sans esperance de se revoir bientôt én liberté, quoique la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé Par le temps et la Patience
"la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé" is grammatically incomplete, has no punctuation before the capital letter of "Par", and thanks to Wilhelmine, we actually know what it said: "the manner in which he is guarded seems to prognosticate something fatal."
It's good to have the full thing (mostly)! Actually, since Wilhelmine wrote in French, I should be able to supply the missing text.
lui fasse augurer quelque chose de funeste.
Oh, this is interesting: she presents the material in a different order, where only the last 5 lines are in verse, and the ones immediately before them, from Celui qu la curiosité on, are in prose, which she says were written below that short verse. The first several lines of the poem, which were new to me, she doesn't reproduce at all.
Berlin, June 31st 1731: Supposedly General Lieutenant v. Katte after leading his regiment at the revue before the King got off his horse and put his sword at the King's feet, and asked again for his demission, whereupon his majesty showed himself very much displeased. Rumor even has it (Hans Heinrich) got arrested as a consequence.
Now, obviously the arrest didn't happen - I don't think biographers would have overlooked that! -, but this is also the first time I heard about Hans Heinrich making this gesture.
Wooow. Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Since the revue was a really big public spectacle (this is also why Fritz was pissed off when Heinrich didn't salute him properly in the after the 7 Years War, remember), such a gesture would have been quite something.
Yes, seriously, WOW. Go Hans Heinrich. I'm glad that you don't know what happened to your other sons; you really didn't have good luck there.
And does argue it's FW Hans Heinrich is struggling for forgive. Not to mention that it gives the lie to the "Hans Heinrich totally on board with FW executing his son!" version. All the more so since Stratemann is really the most FW friendly envoy ever.
Yes! More evidence! To go with the commissioned painting and the letters we have from Hans Heinrich, I'm pretty convinced. Plus it makes your theory even more likely as to why Hans Hermann is still in that same wooden coffin from Küstrin, instead of prettying it up to look like a normal death.
Okay, while I doubt Heinrich asking for Dad's portrait was about more than "big sis got something special, I'd like to have one of those as well", it does provide ammo together with the fish for supper at the start of the year if you want to make a case that FW at this early point indulged him somewhat.
Yep! I imagine that had changed by 1736, year of raiding Fritz's larder?
in the midst of this the King took from the Prince the sole much loved valet left
Wait, what? Another much-loved valet? Do we know anything about this individual? Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Now I have a headcanon that the Münchow and/or Lepel got to pick the servant, and they looked around for someone who would be extra nice to this poor abused boy and future monarch whom they want to stay on the good side of.
Man, between this and the letter to Wilhelmine, I'm thinking Fredersdorf did *not* go to Berlin on any of Fritz's visits, at least the early ones, in disguise as a lackey or no. Yikes. :/
Not receiving communion might not seem a harsh punishment to us, but it's actually really nasty, because if Wilhelmine had died during that time, she'd have died in a damned state.
Never use religion to bring comfort when you can use it a stick to wield, says FW.
This was in Oster, which I got to the other day, but thank you for spelling out what it really *meant*. I am never quite clear on the precise theology of things like Pietism (ironically, I know far more about the finer theological points of obscure early Christian schisms than more modern denominations).
Anyway, see what I mean about Wihelmine being kept as much a prisoner as Fritz? Actually more so, since he gets to attend and work in the Küstrin government, which might not be the most thrilling of occupations but is at least something other than sit and brood in a room.
Yep, it definitely sucked in ways that his didn't. On the one hand, she was in proximity to FW and had nothing to occupy her time with besides music (though I like to think that people were smuggling her books, too); on the other, she had music and at least a couple people she loved with her. It sucks to be both of them.
Oh, this is interesting: she presents the material in a different order, where only the last 5 lines are in verse, and the ones immediately before them, from Celui qu la curiosité on, are in prose, which she says were written below that short verse. The first several lines of the poem, which were new to me, she doesn't reproduce at all.
I wonder whether that means that whoever was her source and wrote it down for her - I imagine Wilhelmine didn't go herself to an army barrack - copied it badly, or whether she was just told it verbally and writes it out of her memory twenty years later? That is assuming Stratemann has the correct version, but since he's writing at the time and has no problem copying down the exact text since no one should object to the Braunschweig envoy doing such a thing, I'm assuming so.
Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Nope. Would have blown quite a hole into his theory.
WOW. Go Hans Heinrich.
That's what I think. I mean, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he has mixed feelings about Fritz as well, but mostly this points to him struggling to reconcile the loyalty he feels he ows his sovereign with being a grieving father who thinks his son, while deserving some punishment (I think Hans Heinrich would have been okay with some years in prison - well, ashamed, but okay in terms of considering it just), was taken from him by this man, and not higher justice.
Your plan for the AU in which he and Hans Herrmann have a heart to heart later in life looks more plausible than ever.
Yep! I imagine that had changed by 1736, year of raiding Fritz's larder?
So I would gather. Not least because there's a big difference between a four years old child who until Ferdinand is the baby of the family and a ten years old child. FW's imagine of himself as a loving dad can be amplified by adoring small children. (Note that little Wilhelmine wrote him affectionate "dear Papa" letters, too, when she was around that age and older.) Who get Christmas treats, and who get indulged when they ask for favors (like AW for the pardon) or gifts. Otoh, ten years olds who like books and music are a different matter. Stratemann's reports don't extend to that period, but younger Seckendorff is writing into his journal then, and the only two kid-related anecdotes I recall is a) young AW fainting in the tobacco parliament, and b) Ferdinand (who's the indulged five years old then) cheeking Grumbkow about handing over bread and being a Field Marshal. (Unless we count "Junior"'s pronouncement that Heinrich and Ferdinand have a bad nature, Ferdinand is the worst and AW is good natured but with the education of a peasant.) What we do have, otoh, from that era is FW's statement - quoted in several biographies - that he doesn't make predictions about his children except about AW who would be an "honnete homme" and a great one, surely. So I'm still going with the assumption that the indulgence for Heinrich on those two occasions in 1730 was based on him being the baby of the family, the position he just lost to Ferdinand who however was an actual baby and couldn't yet interact with Dad, and once Heinrich left tiny cutie phase behind and developed interests that were not FW's, he faded into the background with the other kids, with AW the constant male favourite and the female favourite being Charlotte and Ulrike in turns.
Wait, what? Another much-loved valet? Do we know anything about this individual? Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Must be, since I don't think the valet he had before, the one who also shows up in the interrogation protocols, was with him in Küstrin at any point?
It sucks to be both of them.
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him. He had all the power, and no, not every word Wilhelmine wrote in the memoirs was true, but she probably was as accurate as most people looking back at very traumatic events years later and using the writing as a chance to vent and in lack of actual therapy.
It's also always important to remember that while many a contemporary thought FW was over the top with his reactions, both Fritz and Wilhelmine would still have gotten the message that it was his right to treat them this way both as monarch and as father from all sides. And while they hated him, they didn't, I fear, ever stop loving him as well and wanting his approval and a "Well done, you".
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well. And, says, Hervey, it was clear to everyone hearing this that G2 was thinking of himself both as the cardinal example of a wronged father and a wronged son. Meanwhile, FW, only child of two parents who despite being very different from him both seem to have loved him and whose most most debatable action was a) to send him to live with his cousins for a while, and b) given him a strict Calvinist as a teacher when he was ten: Of course there are no bad fathers! Fathers should only be loved and listened to and adored! There are no exceptions!
Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Nope. Would have blown quite a hole into his theory.
*g*
mostly this points to him struggling to reconcile the loyalty he feels he ows his sovereign with being a grieving father who thinks his son, while deserving some punishment (I think Hans Heinrich would have been okay with some years in prison - well, ashamed, but okay in terms of considering it just), was taken from him by this man, and not higher justice.
Your plan for the AU in which he and Hans Herrmann have a heart to heart later in life looks more plausible than ever.
Agreed on Hans Heinrich's likely psychology here. And because he doesn't agree with Hans Hermann's decision, and because he doesn't have the sense of pain and outrage at his loss to counterbalance his conviction that Hans Hermann was in the wrong, the heart-to-heart is a deathbed forgiveness secene and not a "Well done, son." But it's enough for Hans Hermann, who, due to Hans Heinrich not seeing him for 10 years and not wanting to commit certain things to mail, has been wondering just *how* angry his father was with him.
What helps reconcile Hans Heinrich and certain other family members is that while it was certainly disloyalty, no one believes it was cowardice, especially not once the full story of Katte's heroic role protecting Fritz during the escape gets out. And now he's got a royal pardon from AW, so it's all good, they can reconcile and part on good father-son terms.
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him.
I'm not just side-eyeing, I'm FUMING. Those poor kids! The victim-blaming! SD was no angel, but she was definitely an abuse victim too!
It's also always important to remember that while many a contemporary thought FW was over the top with his reactions, both Fritz and Wilhelmine would still have gotten the message that it was his right to treat them this way both as monarch and as father from all sides.
Indeed.
Fritz: And as your current monarch and standing in loco parentis to my siblings and niblings, I would like to announce that I've taken this lesson to heart.
And while they hated him, they didn't, I fear, ever stop loving him as well and wanting his approval and a "Well done, you".
Yep. Totally typical for abusive families.
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well.
LOL this is so great. Rationalization for the win!
Meanwhile, FW, only child of two parents who despite being very different from him both seem to have loved him and whose most most debatable action was a) to send him to live with his cousins for a while, and b) given him a strict Calvinist as a teacher when he was ten: Of course there are no bad fathers! Fathers should only be loved and listened to and adored! There are no exceptions!
Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Must be, since I don't think the valet he had before, the one who also shows up in the interrogation protocols, was with him in Küstrin at any point?
Gummersbach? Not that I know of, and more to the point, he was instrumental in preventing the escape, so I wonder if he would still be "most-loved" at that point. Maybe, but until we find out it was him, I stand by my headcanon that Fritz's sympathetic jailers found him a servant who would, I don't know, help smuggle letters to Wilhelmine out.
Also, if it's someone he met at Küstrin, then they only had 4 months to become "much-loved", but also, those are circumstances under which you would very quickly latch on to someone, so... :/
I'm so glad Fredersdorf came along later that year, and FW didn't catch on.
I wonder whether that means that whoever was her source and wrote it down for her - I imagine Wilhelmine didn't go herself to an army barrack - copied it badly, or whether she was just told it verbally and writes it out of her memory twenty years later?
Good question! I've just compared the two French texts, and my impression is that they're way too similar for me to think Wilhelmine is recording something she heard orally long ago. The two transcriptions look to me like the product of two different written copies of the text, where scribal errors and/or different interpretations of not totally legible handwriting crept in.
I mean, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he has mixed feelings about Fritz as well
Oh sure, I totally believe that. I think he'd have to be a saint not to have mixed feelings when his son would still hvae been alive if Fritz hadn't gotten him involved. But that's distinct from actually executing him. >:(
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him.
:((((((((((((( Yeah, no.
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well.
Hah! Hervey, you always come through with amusement value. Lol.
The Braunschweig Perspective: On the Wings of an Angel
On March 24th, FW allows Wilhelmine to come from Berlin to Potsdam but still under great restriction and without seeing her. Otoh, he does see his other daughters
At once when they arrived His Majesty ordered the fourth princess, Sophie, the bride of the Prince of Bayreuth and the youngest Princess Amalie to him, and when he saw the Princess Sophie, he was somwhat surprised at her size. Two months ago, she'd entered her thirteenth year, and has grown taller than her three older sisters, and so the King said to her: Sophie! What have you done to grow so tall, you grow taller than me, let me see your shoes. When he saw her shoes had heels of about two inches, the King said: Away with those! You don't need them anymore. On the next morning, the King visited the smallest prince, who is now nearly a year old, and took along the two above named princesses. When the King noticed that the Princess Sophie wasn't as tall anymore as the other day and saw with appreciation the flat shoes, he told her very sweet things.
And finally, Wilhelmine gets a break:
At last the royal decision regarding the oldest Princess has been made that she was allowed to receive communion at a service to be held in her chamber, which she'd wished to do in the cathedral with the rest of the people but has been refused to for unknown causes; when the second court preacher Steinberg this last Sunday held a service in the audience room of the princess, her royal highness, her stewardess Fr. v. Wittenhorst-Sonsfeld, the Queen's lady of honor Fr. v. Bodenbruch, and the Baroness de Joccourt, the governess of the three younger princesses, attended. One still hopes the Princess after having spent eight months in her retreat would be reconciled, but this hasn't happened yet, but it is expected to happen within the next four weeks and the arrival of the foreign dignitaries.
Again, I say the Baroness de Joccourt is Stratemann's likely source, not just for these but for all the stories featuring the kids.
More stories from Küstrin about how everyone, not just local nobility but French, Dutch, British and from the other German states keeps sending food and drink to Fritz but under incognito names and everyone is rooting for FW to release him.
Poor Gundling dies, and Stratemann gives a description of his ghastly funeral. Gundling's arch enemy and successor, Fassmann, who ridiculed him in a speech at said funeral quickly finds out what it means to be FW's new punching bag. He's sent fool garnments and refuses to wear them (Stratemann: But they were presents! How could he!). Flash foward to July, and Fassmann has had it, and we get a nasty reminder of 18th century antisemitism to boot:
Councillor Faßman who'd been appointed Court Fool has fled, because he does not want to be a Bouffon de la Cour, and it is said he has deserted to England. Most recently, he had a clash at Potsdam with a Jew named Marcus who has often been used by the court for such offices, and had to receive a slap in the face by the later, which the Jew had been licensed to do by a higher authority, whereupon (Fassmann) threw him on the ground and kicked him, and tore at his hair and strangled him so much that he'd have killed him if (Marcus) had not been saved by the surrounding officers. Faßmann then said to the King: he'd once had set the condition that he didn't want to be vexed by anyone, no matter how high ranking, much less by an infamous Jew, and thus he's left royal service and did not return.
Back to spring: May 31st: After the arrival of the Prince of Dessau at Potsdam on the 10th, the later along with the Duke of Bevern has had a long conversation with the King which mostly concerned the reconciliation with the Crown Prince and the oldest Princess. The King supposedly remained harsh and wasn't movable, but one still flatters oneself: that his Majesty will be moved by these two best of princes. If it comes to this, the Prince of Dessau will go to Küstrin himself and pick the Crown Prince up there. Regarding the oldest Princess, it's said that within a few days, her destiny will be cleared up. A few days ago, she has been visited by General and Secret Councillor of his Majesty v. Grumbkow as well as the General Leutnants v. Borck, v. Podewils and v. Thulemeier, all four arriving in a chaise without announcement at the palace, and spent over an hour with the Princess. The sisters of the Princess and their governesses as well as her stewardess v. Wittenhorst-Sonsfeld and two of the Queen's ladies had been present at first then suddenly all had retired from the room and some with them greatly upset so that they had to take the red powder by Stahl. Of the proposition which was made to the Princess by these ministers of the cabinet, there is much conflicting rumor. Some claim to guess that a new marriage has been proposed to the Princess, either with the ruling Margrave of Brandenburg-Bayreuth (i.e. BayreuthFriedrich's DAD) or with his Prince3 Heir who otherwise had been meant for the fourth Princess. But everything is still uncertain, and it's been covered up. But one thing is true; when the Princess came down to supper this evening, she wasn't, as she used to since allowed to supper, in a cheered up mood, but completely withdrawn in thoughts, and hardly spoke a word during the entire meal.
Editor Richard Wolff: the Margravine gives one of her typical exaggarated descriptions of this meeting in her memoirs of these four gentlemen trying to "bully" her into marriage.
And lo, it's public submission time for Wilhelmine:
Before the arrival of the King, the oldest, the fourth and the sixth Princess (and the first one after an encounter with the Queen) positioned themselves in his Majesty's rooms and received the King; when the oldest Princess threw herself at the King's feet and pleaded with his Majesty: to forgive her with what she has angered her merciful Papa; and squeezed out some tears while saying this, at which the King, too has cried a bit, and thus this Princess, after a retreat to her room of nine months, has not only been received again with grace but has now been put in new circumstances; but what will happen next and whose bride she shall be, time will show. The Queen has been received by the above named three princesses and Her Majesty had been very glad to find the oldest Princess, whom she hasn't seen for four months, reconciled with the King, for we all know that this Princess above all others has been close to the Queen's heart. And now the only thing lacking is that the Crown Prince, too, will be released into Freedom, to make everyone's joy complete.
In fairness, as of this point, anyone would have said Wilhelmine had been SD's favourite daughter and confidant, given not just SD pushing the English marriage for her. Still, the contrast between SD resenting the hell out of Wilhelmine's accepting the Bayreuth marriage in rl (and in younger Seckendorff's description when Wilhelmine is already married, so we don't have to rely on Wilhelmine's own word about this) and Stratemann's description is striking.
One hadn't believe the affair at first; but since the oldest Princess has submitted herself completely to the King's will, she's been gifted with much rich clothing, a purse and other precious triflings; and thus there can be no doubt (as to the reconciliation). Princess Ulrike, who since a year has been the King's greatest favourite and had been preferred to her older sister Sophie, has now been degraded due to a minor mistake. Despite her being only eleven years of Age, she still possess a great mind and thus a noble spirit; and thus she's very touchy about this and torments herself: at the King's demand, the Queen has taken the diamond earrings which the Queen of Sweden had given (Ulrike) some years ago away, and then she had to sit at the table with her youngest sister Princess (Amalie) despite having been allowed to sit for a year at the King's table.
On June 5th, Wilhelmine's engagement to Bayreuth Friedrich officially takes place. Stratemann thinks Bayreuth Friedrich only learned at the last minute he wouldn't get Sophie but Wilhelmine. To truly appreciate his description of the engagement party, bear in mind SD hated Bayreuth Friedrich's guts. (Or rather, hated that he married her daughter, making him the symbol of her defeat in the marital battle.)
The noble engaged couple sat at the high point of the table, and the King's pleasure was above measure. His highness the Duke of Würtemberg emptied a large cup while toasting the health of the engaged couple. After supper, the groom led his bride to the ballroom, but the King at once took her from him and started the dance with her; then he danced with the Princess Bride of Bevern (i.e. Charlotte, and then with Princess Sophie. The first two were warmly embraced by the King, and they kissed his Majesty's hands, which was repeated twice or thrice. When the two youngest princesses saw that the King had not asked them to dance, they, too, kissed his hands, and thus the King has danced with his five princess daughters en suite. The noble groom had been told by the King to ask the Queen to dance, but when her Majesty excused herself, the Prince Heir shrugged; but when the King tried again by telling her that the King asked her to do this, she no more refused but danced with the Heir Prince, whereupon Her Majesty did the same thing with the Duke of Würtemberg and the Duke of Bevern, and finally with the King himself, who held both of her hands, during the dance itself, too. He kept kissing her hand, and the ball ended only at three in the morning.
Meanwhile ,the British envoy: Wilhelmine looked pale and if she'd faint the entire time, and the Queen was upset and almost in tears, and the King glowered. Taking the British bias into acccount, I suppose the truth was somewhere in between, but Stratemann's polyanna-ness is still striking. Mind you, FW able to dance with all five of his daughters is not a picture one usually has of him.
Wilhelmine gets supportive poetry (in German) too, on the occasion of her engagement. An anonymous poem is making the rounds according to Stratemann:
One sees the secretly circulating verses that an adroit poet has made on the occasion of the oldest Princess' future departure for Bayreuth, and which go thusly:
Geh, Englische Prinzeß! nach deinem werthen Francken, Gott und die Nach-Welt wird dir deine Treue dancken, Indeßen bleibt dein Ruhm der ganzen Welt bekandt: Denn wo Du lebst, da ist das rechte Engelland.
The poem makes a pun between "Englisch" as in "English", and "Englisch" as in old fashioned German for "Engelhaft" in modern German, "Angelic". You might recall that Isabella makes a similar pun in a letter to Maria Christina. I'll try my hand regardless. First the literal translation:
Go, English/Angelic Princess! with your worthy Franconian, God and posterity will thank you for your loyalty, and in the meantime, your fame is known to the entire world, for where you live, that's where the true country of the English/Angels is. Verse:
Oh English Princess, go with your Franconian man, God knows your loyalty, and posterity will thank you then. Still, all the world knows of your fame: For where you live, that's Angelcountry all the same.
Now according to Stratemann, FW is hell bent on making Wilhelmine and future Margrave have sex and consumate the marriage before it's a marriage. Why? Because that would make it legal as a marriage, and rumor has it the Brits are making trouble by pointing to Fritz' of Wales' earlier claim to Wilhelmine's hand, which supposedly invalidates her current engagement. Mind you, having read Hervey's memoirs where the whole thing only gets half a sentence mention, I really doubt that, but I can see SD spreading such a rumor via her daughter's governesses, which, see above, I think were Stratemann's sources.
And then, come August, we get the big Fritz submission, of which Stratemann reports nothing new. That's as far as I got.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: On the Wings of an Angel
He's sent fool garnments and refuses to wear them (Stratemann: But they were presents! How could he!).
Ugh! Gundling is one of those (quite a few) things I will just never forgive FW for :( Though lol Stratemann :)
Editor Richard Wolff: the Margravine gives one of her typical exaggarated descriptions of this meeting in her memoirs of these four gentlemen trying to "bully" her into marriage.
*facepalm* Ugh, wow.
Meanwhile ,the British envoy: Wilhelmine looked pale and if she'd faint the entire time, and the Queen was upset and almost in tears, and the King glowered. Taking the British bias into acccount, I suppose the truth was somewhere in between, but Stratemann's polyanna-ness is still striking.
Poor Wilhelmine :(
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: On the Wings of an Angel
More stories from Küstrin about how everyone, not just local nobility but French, Dutch, British and from the other German states keeps sending food and drink to Fritz but under incognito names and everyone is rooting for FW to release him.
I feel like this is a sign that nobody considers his current diet adequate! Though that could admittedly be an SD-type complaint about the appropriateness of the food rather than the amount.
He's sent fool garnments and refuses to wear them (Stratemann: But they were presents! How could he!).
SIGH.
and tore at his hair and strangled him so much that he'd have killed him if (Marcus) had not been saved by the surrounding officers.
SIGH.
SD resenting the hell out of Wilhelmine's accepting the Bayreuth marriage in rl (and in younger Seckendorff's description when Wilhelmine is already married, so we don't have to rely on Wilhelmine's own word about this)
Thank you for reminding me of this. It's good to know when Wilhelmine is backed by independent sources.
Meanwhile, the British envoy: Wilhelmine looked pale and if she'd faint the entire time, and the Queen was upset and almost in tears, and the King glowered. Taking the British bias into acccount, I suppose the truth was somewhere in between, but Stratemann's polyanna-ness is still striking.
Hah. It's so good to have multiple sources with differing biases.
You might recall that Isabella makes a similar pun in a letter to Maria Christina.
I had forgotten that, but will always remember the famous "Non Angli sed Angeli" quip attributed to Gregory the Great many centuries earlier.
FW is hell bent on making Wilhelmine and future Margrave have sex and consumate the marriage before it's a marriage. Why? Because that would make it legal as a marriage, and rumor has it the Brits are making trouble by pointing to Fritz' of Wales' earlier claim to Wilhelmine's hand, which supposedly invalidates her current engagement. Mind you, having read Hervey's memoirs where the whole thing only gets half a sentence mention, I really doubt that, but I can see SD spreading such a rumor via her daughter's governesses, which, see above, I think were Stratemann's sources.
Yep. In her memoirs, Wilhelmine has SD coming to her on the morning of her wedding and telling her, "Whatever you do, DON'T sleep with your husband. We need to be able to nullify this marriage later so you can fulfill your destiny of living the kind of life I wanted to live marry your cousin!"
Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
It's what it says on the box, really, I'm new to all of this :'D
So, uh, hi! I'm Jana, I've talked to mildred_of_midgard on AO3 and I was told that I could introduce myself/be part of the chat! I have no idea whether I picked the correct page for this! The joy of joining a new social network!
I'm 20 years old and about to enter my third semester of history and art history at uni. I've been interested in Fritz since I was about 13, but, being 13, I didn't get many proper sources until way later, so all of my knowledge is kind of... a huge mess of anecdotes and a few primary sources that I read way later. I am currently attempting to solidify my knowledge on Fritz with more books and more primary sources and honestly, your page has been a goldmine, it's SO fun to read!
My first language is German, I'm alright at English and I can manage some French. I've drawn some comics about historical anecdotes years ago and intend on maybe doing so again and, as of right now, I'm in the middle of painting a pop art style portrait of Katte to match the pop art style poster of Fritz that my parents got me from the Deutsches Historisches Museum. That kind of sums up my level of weird.
Uh... yeah! I really hope I picked the right place to post this!
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
I've seen you around on tumblr Fritz fandom, so I immediately recognized your name when you commented on my fic, and I was very pleased!
You guys, I thought I had linked to this piece back when I put together my collation of my favorite tumblr links, but I guess I didn't?? Anyway, enjoy it now. :D
being 13, I didn't get many proper sources until way later, so all of my knowledge is kind of... a huge mess of anecdotes and a few primary sources that I read way later
We've all been down that road! We're constantly revising our beliefs and our opinions as new information turns up. Be aware that even some of the information in rheinsberg has been superseded by later discoveries. It's a fast-moving fandom!
honestly, your page has been a goldmine, it's SO fun to read!
Yay, that's what we hoped when we put it together! You said you had a particular interest in Fredersdorf; have you been had time to check out his tag? We have a copy of his correspondence with Fritz (I think you said you had acquired the same volume) in our pdf library, and selenak was kind enough to read it and summarize it for us (which, tbh, is how we know almost all sources in this fandom are propagated). She is a goldmine.
Anyway, I don't remember if anything under the Fredersdorf tag says why we don't believe he was dismissed for financial irregularities, but we don't. :P Lehndorff doesn't know anything about it, and there's a distinct lack of mentions in any of our actual sources, so we're waiting until we find evidence before we subscribe to any belief in that. Citation needed!
Also fic. We have written several Fredersdorf fics between the three of us, some in which he features and some in which he's a secondary character. And to think that last year, he had no tag in AO3! (He's getting nominated and requested again for Yuletide this year.)
the pop art style poster of Fritz
The Andy Warhol one? Oh, cahn, have you seen this one? They had it hanging in Sanssouci when I was there.
Pop art Katte sounds great!
Above all, we're happy to have you and look forward to sharing the Fritz fun! :D
Edited 2020-10-03 18:07 (UTC)
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
I have to admit that I somewhat forgot that my AO3 profile and my old art blog have the same name :'D Oh boy, there's some stuff on there... Though I'm glad to know people like it a bit! :D I made new and more silly doodles (like a very Cursed looking Heinrich) on my last vacation to Brandenburg, I might upload those at some point (to my new tumblr though...)
Fredersdorf
I have not read through the Fredersdorf tag yet, but I definitely will :D I do have a Richter copy of the correspondence from 1926. I'm really glad I found it, it's in great condition and the few letters I've read so far were very interesting and lead to me and a group of friends referring to Fritz as Friech for the past few months (makes it easier to differentiate between the five different Friedrichs we talk about). My newest acquisition is a 1936 copy of Der Kronprinzenprozess by Carl Hinrichs, which lists a bunch of primary sources, some of which I did not know yet, and would probably break my heart for good if I read through it in one sitting.
The Andy Warhol one?
The one I have is this one which the DHM apparently photographed in a basement, using a phone from 2012. I put it up in my new apartment because it's something I had a frame for and I have this random pink wall... Couldn't figure out what else to put on the other walls and my colleague suggested painting something in the same style, sooo Katte it is. It's quite a process since I've never worked with the grid method, acrylic paint, canvas boards OR pop art before, but I have some hope left that it's going to look good eventually. Hopefully. Please.
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
I made new and more silly doodles (like a very Cursed looking Heinrich) on my last vacation to Brandenburg, I might upload those at some point (to my new tumblr though...)
We are Heinrich fans, bring it on!
My newest acquisition is a 1936 copy of Der Kronprinzenprozess by Carl Hinrichs, which lists a bunch of primary sources, some of which I did not know yet, and would probably break my heart for good if I read through it in one sitting.
IT BROKE MY HEART. And all I did was read the selenakwrite-up! And because I like having my heart broken, it's on my list of things to read once my German is good enough to not need a translation. :D (Getting closer!)
The one I have is this one which the DHM apparently photographed in a basement, using a phone from 2012.
Oh, wow, that one is new to me. So pop art of Fritz is a thing! See, this fandom is sooo educational.
sooo Katte it is.
Excellent choice! Pop art of Katte needs to be a thing. PS, I accept fanart treats for fandom exchanges like Yuletide. :D (Damn, I need to finish my letter. How am I supposed to participate in fanfic exchanges and study German and comment on German reading group and read and reply to selenak's write-ups *and* be royal detective? :P)
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
Willkommen, bienvenue, wellcome! (Inevitable Cabaret joke is inevitable. *g*) “A bunch of anecdotes and a few primary sources” is how we started, too, and believe me, Mildred is the.most resourceful librarian of the world - no sooner does one idly mention an obscure eighteenth century figure than she’s unearthed their memoirs/correspondance/diaries for us to read.
Browsing through tumblr, i did see some of your beautiful art, and so I’m doubly glad you’re joining us!
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
Hi hi hi hi! Welcome! Yay, I'm so glad you found us! :D Your art is lovely! (I have a tumblr but don't tend to go there these days unless specifically pointed to something, so thanks mildred_of_midgard for the link :) )
And when this whole thing started, I knew... just about zero about Fritz, I knew that he was maybe king of Prussia?? (At which point mildred started telling me about how he was king In Prussia for a while, but anyway...) So I've been indebted to selenak and mildred_of_midgard for telling me everything and letting me hang out with them while they figure out all these amazing things :) It's fun and totally nonjudgmental! :D
Feel free to chime in whenever and wherever you want! We do often have several threads going at once, so mildred usually suggests tracking the current post so you'll be informed of whenever new comments are added. (I think it's that little bell at the bottom of the post proper; being the host of the salon means that I don't have to track myself!) I also usually open a new post once the old one reaches 300 or so comments, so if there are no new comments for a day or two it's probably because we've moved over to a new post (and/or there's a fic deadline and everyone's working on their fic instead, ha). (I tag these posts as 'frederick the great.')
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
Um. I kind of did this intro to our fandom, in what was an extremely on-brand moment for me. :D :P
Recruitment into the Fritzian fandom is more friendly and more consensual than recruitment into the Fritzian army, but it's not much less organized and high-octane!
how he was king In Prussia for a while, but anyway...
On which I turned out to have been possibly chronologically wrong! I still have a bookmark from a Potsdam or Berlin gift shop that says that he became King of Prussia only with the first Polish Partition, but then Selenak found evidence (I forget what evidence) that he started calling himself that already in the 1740s and eventually just wore everyone down, Fritz-style, so...
Since cahn asked on AO3, I thought I'd just put the link here. I attempted to translate Friedrich Mythos und Tragödie back in 2016 to show it to an American friend of mine (because I needed other people to suffer like I did). The subtitles were... alright enough, but I revised them last month, so now they're actually in the vague vicinity of good :'D The amount of serotonin I got when, after four years, I finally understood that FW says "You will serve in the Gens d'armes regiment" and not "asdsghjdsfjhkg SERVE!" - amazing.
I am not a professional translator and sometimes I am just plain lazy (I couldn't be arsed to spend too much brain power on retranslating the Katte/Wilhelmine duet...) soooo there are probably still mistakes. Anyway, here .
Geez, my love-hate relationship with this musical. I mean, some of the songs are great. Sometimes it is obvious that they did do their research (other times it is obvious that they did not give a shit about it...). I do think the cast had potential. Even though they picked the worst day to record for poor Tobias Bieri (Crown Prince Fritz), he sounds so much better in the bootlegs I've seen...
Oh thank you! I never had the chance to see the musical on stage, I only know the YouTube videos and read a summary, which sounds, well, interesting. Looking forward to the entirety now...
Do tell me what you think of it once you get to watch it!
Interesting is the right word, it's... quite a wild ride. I am trying not to spoil anything because I feel like you need to experience the weirdness for yourself. Some plot points just kind of sneak up on you and punch you in the jaw.
Oh yaaaaaay thank you! :DDDD I'm sadly taking a super long time to watch things these days (even without Yuletide breathing down my neck) so fair warning, it may take me a while, but I'm so excited for this! Crazy and weird and Fritz seems like a combination that will be at the very least highly amusing :D
The Braunschweig Perspective: Wedding Bells are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine
Post- submission at Küstrin, Stratemann reports that now the marriage game for Fritz has been restarted. Also, his return to Potdam is, once again, imminent:
"The local rooms of the Crown Prince are with all eagerness being redecorated, and it's even said that the King had ordered all the wallpaper that used to be in these rooms, and all the books and papers which were still here, to be burned."
Same entry (August 25th 1731): the next unlucky guy to succeed Gundling and the rage-quitting Faßmann doesn't fare much better:
The successor of the late Councillor Gundeling and of Faßmann as court historian, v. Drost, has been offered by the King a salary of 1000 Reichstaler, but he keeps protesting and doesn't want to accept this office and the treats going with it; but he has still been ordered to Potsdam, and it's not doubted that given time, he'll accept everything since he's not capable of avoiding this.
Don't be so sure, Stratemann. Fritz gets three new beautiful riding horses sent to him to Küstrin; he's now reported as socializing with the Wreechs. Meanwhile, Wilhelmine has been allowed to drink coffee with Fritz of Bayreuth Otoh, Stratemann reports Fritz' secret library has been sold, though the buyer, a "French merchant", no name given, has announced he's holding it for Fritz as a future present.
It's the anniversary of the battle of Malplaquet (most devastating European battle pre 7 Years War; young FW, Seckendorff and Grumbkow were all youthful participants, and their relationship started there) which FW celebrates each year, this time by being so drunk he can't get up from the floor anymore without his servants' help.
September 22nd: hunting time, AW allowed to participate for the first time, Heinrich has fallen sick : The royal Prince August Wilhelm has been permitted to go hunting for the first time, with a gun, and he has sent the first shot partridge to the old governess of the royal children, Madame v. Roucoulles, as a present.
(Adult AW will not be a fan of hunting.)
Meanwhile, Drost, too, has gotten the hell out of Prussia rather than accept Gundling's job, "and nobody knows where. His colleague the advocate, however, has shown himself here again, and will probably be commissioned in his place. (...) The Medicus shall wear the same costume as the late Gundlng, and if he wants to, it will be permitted to him to let his wife come to Prussia, and it will be allowed to him to take his creditor, v. Lövenklau, as his Maitre d'Hotel.
So will this concessions make the guy accept the job? Stay tuned...
In October, FW proves he doesn't necessarily stiff actors: A strong man who has arrived from Italy this week has been at the King's and has displayed his strength and has presented comedies with his troupe which consists of about 20 people, whereupon both Majesties and the court were so pleased that ihe did not only receive gifts but has been permitted to show his arts in this country for money; which is why he has ordered a house made of wood to be built at Neumarkt here, and willl debut next week.
However, there's still an ongoing problem:
The King supposedly has a burning desire to debate again with a learned man like Gundling or Faßmann history as well als all matters in Europe, and wants to have such a man near his person again, which is why the vice director of Halberstadt, v. Dacheröden, who has proved during his last stay here that he is a capable man, has been suggested. So the King in order to close the arrangement quickly has given an order already.
Yeah, well...
It's getting near November, when Wilhelmine is supposed to marry. Her sister Friederike, who has married the Margrave of Ansbach even before Fritz' escape attempt, is coming to Berlin for the first time since that marriage for the occasion. FW decides to hire some musicians to celebrate her arrival.
Thus a few of the royal Polish musicians have come from Dresden. What's more, the so called Dönhoff-Horrible Band Of Musicians has arrived as a backup, which consists of lame clubfeets, one eyed and humpback bodies, so that everyone will be shattered by the ensuing noise.
I bet. Ugh at 18th century abelism.
November 20th 1731: Wilhelmine's wedding starts: The Crown Prince has not come from Küstrin, despite the Princess Bride kept begging with letter after letter for it, and no royal order has been edited to him, either.
As you noticed from Oster, SD is much displeased at the new comedians making sex jokes and wants to protet her daughters from same, so the three youngest princesses aren't allowed to attend the comedian appearances anymore. Stratemann gives a thorough description of the ceremonies and what everyone was wearing. Like I said, he's the old fashioned conservative gossip magazine of envoys. The bedding ceremony:
The King has helped the groom undress, the Queen has helped the bride, and then the later's eyes were bound while the bridal crown which was taken from her head has been given to another, who happened to be her youngest sister Princess Amalie, who took it. Then the noble couple had to go into bed in charming sleeping wear in front of all the illustrious guests, while the King held a little joking sermon and has sung a funny song, and then said: they should kiss each other now. Which they either out of awe or out of dumbness did not do, but probably wanted to postpone for another time. After everyone withdrew, the bridal couple was transported in chaises to the apartment destined for them, to which the King and the Queen followed them. They wished them a good night, and withdrew again; meanwhile, dancing kept up until late at night. (...)
Post Scriptum. De dato Berlin, 24. Nov. 1731. Last night around 7 pm and when the ball had already been started hours earlier, the Crown Prince, at first completely unknown and not with his cavaliers, has appeared at court. As soon as he was recognized by the princesses, his sisters (plural, yes), the joy has been indescribable, and many, many people both illustrious and not have shed tears of joy, including the Crown Prince himself. His Royal Highness looked somewhat serious while there was dancing, and hasn't danced with a lady other than his sisters and some princely people. He wore a grey suit, which had silver tressings at the edges, and which is referred in this country as a Secret Councillor Frock. So it is said that the King two days ago has sent an urgent message to Küstrin calling his royal highness here.
Stratemann will later say something more about Fritz at the wedding, which is typical for his style: first the white washed version, then somewhat later the admittance there were maybe some flies in the ointment after all.
There's a sketch of the wedding table and who sat where! So if anyone wants to write fanfic about Wilhelmine's wedding, this is really the book to consujlt. Even Polyanna Stratemann notes that SD retired early each evening of the wedding festivities after the first day.
FW is reported in a great mood throughout the week of Wilhelmine's wedding celebrations:
The King shows his tenderness towards the royal children in public, as they kissed the King's hands a dozen times, and have been allowed to kiss him on the mouth as well, which both the Margravine of Ansbach (Friederike) and her sister, the Princess Bride of Bevern (Charlotte) did at once, and then the former had to kiss her husband on the King's demand; morever, the Princess of Bayreuth and the little princesses received the grace to kiss their Papa and be kissed by him. After Count Seckendorff declared supper to have ended, the King gave in front of all illustrious guests with unusual solemnity to the Crown Prince the sword of an officer, and the uniform to go with it, along with the regiment Golz which was transfered to him, which is why on the following days one saw the Prince at the parade wearing a blue coat to the greatest marvelling of the public, as his royal highness just a year ago when the Cavalry and the Colonel Lieutenant office of the King's Regiment had been taken from him had vowed never again to wear a blue coat.
On the dispatch dated December 11th 1731, Stratemann admits that maybe it wasn't all harmony at the wedding:
Secretly, one is assured: that the Crown Prince when he was present here has shown a disagreeable face to some people, and that this has been the cause of his sudden departure back to Küstrin, and that this is why it's now doubtful that the Prince will get the Golz regiment and other privileges after all.
Okay. According to Wilhelmine's memoirs, Fritz was cold-to-rude towards her new husband and distant to her, and Grumbkow (neglecting to mention that he'd advised Fritz to put up some boundaries) told her the King was displeased by this. I had written this off as double talk by Grumbkow, but I can't think of who else Fritz was noticed to have been rude to at the wedding, causing this rumor to reach Polyanna Stratemann's ears.
On December 29, 1731, we get a description of the Hohenzollern Clan celebrating the Christmas of 1731:
On Christmas Eve, the King has ordered small frogs to be exposed in the antechamber in order to amuse the little princes and princesses, and has given presents to all the family of royal blood, which were very precius and consisted of silver pieces and gallant trifles. The Prince of Bayreuth and his wife were given presents in the worth of 1000 Reichstaler. The Margrave of Ansbach and his wife got presents in the same worth, and many boxes were filled with them. What the two oldest princesses thus received were other than two precious boxes dozens of plates, knives, forks and spoons, big silver soup bowls, great candelabras, two big spoons for potatos, a barber bowl with a pot and a box to put the soap into. Princess Charlotte the Bevern Bride has received two silver brooms for the kitchen and other silver pieces. Princess Sophie got the least of all from the King, as she was only given two plates and some pretty trifles, but the Queen has more than made up for this since her Majesty gave her secretly a big cruxific full of diamonds. Princess Ulrike, who is the King's current favourite, has been given various gallant trifles in addition to three big plates and one candelabra. The little princes received an equal share of silver coins but also silver rods, with which the King hit the Prince Wilhelm's fingers with in jest, whereupon the Prince was shocked and by jumping back had a bad fall, which is why he's now confined to a sickbed.
No matter how pleasantly this evening passed, the next Christmas Day the King was suffering from a strong colic and threw up, so that her Majesty, too, has not left her room. In the evening, the joyful news was spread that the King through the main doctor Stahl's care and eagerness has been completely recovered.
No, I don't know where he got the frogs in December from. And the German word is "Fröschling", which I can't translate in another fashion but "little frog". Also, poor AW.
Stratemann hears rumors that give yet another reason why Fritz left Berin not overhwelmed with joy:
The local fish market wants to know about the Crown Prince's recent return to Küstrin: that a marriage has been offered to this dear lord which he hasn't been able to agree with joy on yet.
Given whom Fritz ends up marrying, this is rather coy from the Brunswick envoy.
January 12th 1732: At Christmas, the Crown Prince has been in Frankfurt, where the students have prepared a song and some music for him. But his marriage keeps nearly every journalist busy to get the scoop on, without knowing any certainties.
Since this Frankfurt (an der Oder) musical presentation is one of the two origin stories for Fritz/Fredersdorf we have, I note they spent the Christmas of 1731 together, at least.
Stratemann's tactful hint that Fritz is no yett keen on EC: There is much rumor about this prince's current establishment about which, due to worrisome causes, discreet silence must be kept; one has to wait for the certain success.
In early 1732, Franz Stephan's impending arrival causes quite a buzz. He shows up on February 15th, i.e. a good month before the official Fritz/EC engagment party (March 10th), and is a hit with most people, including Fritz.
The report about the engagement party is written on March 15th: The Crown Prince has started the ball with the Queen after supper on this most special engagement day, the King with the Duchess of Bevern, then with the Princess Bride and some of his princess daughters, and all the illustrious foreign visitors have shown themselves joyful and happy, and entertained themselves with both old and new dances. (..) The Duke of Lorraine finds much joy here, and his royal highness likes this residence in particular, due to the free conversation and not being bound to any ceremony, but also due to the daily interaction with the Royal family, and he has said: that he'd rather sit and eat with the young princes and princesses than at the Queen's table.
I bet, Franzl, I bet. I mean, if you had the choice to sit with glowering SD or with the kids from AW and Ulrike downwards, whom would you pick?
FW has a great idea for an extra (and cheap) engagement present for his new Braunschweig in-laws:
The smallest royal Prince, August Ferdinand, who is now nearly two years old and has been called August so far, now following the highest order should be adressed as Prince Ferdinand, which is the name he received from the Duke of Bevern, whereas the first one was in honor of the King of Poland.
(August the Strong, who is now dead.)
The rest of the dispatches has the news that Wilhelmine has written she's really happy with her new husband in Bayreuth, the Protestant religious refugees from Salzburg arrive, and then there's the sudden time jump of a year to 1733 when Fritz gets married. No more interesting stuff. But no matter; Stratemann certainly delivered before that.
Edited 2020-10-05 12:03 (UTC)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Wedding Bells are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine
We could have had little frogs in our fics, just think. Next time!
with which the King hit the Prince Wilhelm's fingers with in jest, whereupon the Prince was shocked and by jumping back had a bad fall, which is why he's now confined to a sickbed.
- AW forced to intervene on behalf of a long fellow under threat of being whipped by rod. - FW jokingly threatens to cut off AW's fingers. - AW finds out FW cuts off his officers' heads and doesn't want to be an officer any more. - FW jokingly hits AW with a rod, resulting in a fall that lands him in a sickbed.
Even the favorite kid had it rough, man.
But no matter; Stratemann certainly delivered before that.
He did indeed! Both for information we didn't already have, and for what was going through the rumor mill at the time, which is always of interest to me: contemporaries didn't have the opportunities to do all the comparative review of sources with the benefit of hindsight that we have, so for fanfic purposes, it's often useful to have characters be *wrong*. (E.g. Fritz wearing Katte's coat, or when cahn originally had Katte executed "practically" in front of Fritz's eyes, and I pointed out that contemporaries hadn't read Hoffbauer and the majority would have said "in front of.")
For future reference, here's the seating chart.
I'm so glad the German reading group decided to cover Oster! Back when you read it, we had no way of knowing that envoy reports were such gold mines of scholarly interest and/or gossipy sensationalism.
Oh, did you ever give us the story of how Ferdinand's nurse was chosen? There's been a lot of material, and maybe I missed it, but I've been waiting. :)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Wedding Bells are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine
Frogs: belatedly, I have a new theory, based on a) Stratemann early on, in the 1728, mentioning how much little AW loves fireworks and how FW indulges him in this, and b) the factthat firecrackers are called “Knallfrösche” in modern German - maybe “Fröschlinge” was the Rokoko term, and what FW did was allow firecrackers lighted in the antechambre to amuse the kids? (Cleaning staff: thanks, your majesty!)
Seating chart: footnote also for future reference: Princes Wilhelm and Heinrich aren’t AW and our Heinrich respectively, they are the Schwedt cousins. AW and our Heinrich are “2nd Royal Prince” and “3rd Royal Prince” respectively.
Ferdinand’s wetnurse: chosen about a month before SD gave birth via comitee consisting of favored court ladies, there were so many other passages I wanted to translate that I abandoned it. Still can do it, though, since I assume this is how it worked for the other royal children as well. (Except Amalie, if Wilhelmine didn’t make it up about SD not realising/being in denial about being pregnant again until shortly before the birth; I imagine that meant the wetnurse for Amalie had to be found really quickly.)
Even the favorite kid had it rough, man.
Quite. And at Christmas, too. Let’s hope he had at least fun with the firecrackers, if I’m right about this.
Contemporaries getting it wrong: My favourite example of a contemporary being utterly wrong remains Zimmermann’s theory about the escape attempt being that Fritz was on his way to Austria to marry MT, and that later FS showed up at his engagement party to gloat over his defeated rival.
Incidentally, I do find it interesting that Stratemann is so superdiscreet and cryptic about what concerns his boss most- Fritz being so super unkeen on EC. As a point of comparison, Seckendorff the Field Marshall in his letters to Prince Eugene and to the Emperor’s office of course reports what FW, SD and Fritz say at any given point about the Emperor (or other members of the imperial family). And Mitchell reports Fritz being uncomplimentary about Mr.Pitt as it happens. And Podewils of course gives Fritz any voiced MT opinion on himself. Maybe this reflects that Braunschweig, while one of the large, important duchies within the HRE, was still not in a league with Prussia, or maybe Stratemann didn’t want to test how much his Duke wanted that marriage to happen by reporting some of the things not just Fritz but SD and Charlotte said about poor EC at different times. It also goes against the way he consistently tries to put the best spin on the royal family and their behavior. There’s no way to spin “so I hear the Queen and our future Duchess in front of the servants talked about Princess EC has fistula in her anus”.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Wedding Bells are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine
what is it with FW and random animals?? Though small frogs sound a lot better than bears in the bedroom, I guess :P Oh, and now I've just read the entire thread. OK, maybe FW didn't have a thing for random animals :P
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No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
When Louise found out about this, she told her brother sadly and bitterly: His silence stems from the fact that he has too much to write, especially to my sister-in-law Wilhelmine.
Aw, Louise. <3
Elisabeth Christine let everyone feel through her imperious nature that she was finally the only queen.
Is this right? Huh. I guess I can understan why EC might want to punch down herself a little for a brief moment
until Fritz puts a stop to thatAw, I remember
I was really comforted and satisfied that [I am] popular. I don't know how I earned this.
Awww, Louise! No wonder everyone thinks she's so nice <3
He had the look on the face of an angel that he really is now, Louise informed her brother, maybe it is a good thing that he died in his innocence, without knowing anything about the misery and grief in this world. But for a mother's tender heart, it is a terrible pain.
:((((((
...what a year for her :( I can see how she might think that maybe he was well out of it :( But still so sad :((
Okay, Es war sein Verlobungsring -- this is translated as "engagement ring"? Did AW give Mina his engagement ring?? I mean, I guess it's not quite as bad as giving her his kids, but...
...Geez Heinrich, WHY ARE YOU SO MEAN TO MINA. Rhetorical question. But really. Still glad we're reading this after the other Zieburas!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Is this right? Huh. I guess I can understan why EC might want to punch down herself a little for a brief moment
Ziebura has this from Lehndorff, who certainly had that impression directly after SD's death. (I think I told you about this? He even has an argument re: SD's funeral arrangements with her, and she apologizes the next day, but this doesn't make him feel much warmer towards her. This series of entries are the ones containing the "she'd have made an excellent burgher's wife" dig, amidst raving about how great SD was at Queendom.) I was a tad sceptical during my original reading of the diaries, but Sophie von Voss backs him up here - i.e. EC after SD's death trying to be more authoritarian (and failing at it) - so now I think it was another case of damned if you do, damned of you don't for her. (Her mother-in-law had critisized her as not sufficiently regal, after all.)
Aw, I remember
Lehndorff is usually complimentary about Mina, and during the time they lived together in Heinrich's Berlin residence (remember, when Lehndorff had no more Berlin place but wanted to live there to be near his sons and Heinrich told him to move into his town residence with his family, ca. 1799), he had tea with her every day- but every now and then you get a remark like this, complete with an aside that she hears perfectly well and yet they had to repeat to her three times that Heinrich was fine before she got up again. You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
Did AW give Mina his engagement ring?? I mean, I guess it's not quite as bad as giving her his kids, but...
Yes, he did. It was also the ring he was wearing all the time. The fact that he did made the rounds quickly, since Lehndorff knows about this detail even before Heinrich's January visit to Berlin as executor of AW's will.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Yeah, first she got criticized for not talking, then she got criticized for talking too much and not having anything interesting to say. Then she's either not regal enough or too imperious.
Sucks to be her. :/
You can practically hear him think "if anyone gets to faint at the prospect of Heinrich being wounded, it's me, and I don't do it, plus we all now how things are between you two, so cut the dramatics!"
This is ringing a bell now that you mention it!
Ziebura seems to think that Wilhelmine, like EC, had the misfortune of actually falling in love with, or at least developing feelings for, her husband.
No pity for the wives indeed. :(
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
I just got to the part where Amalie writes the "we all suck, except Louise, she's an angel" letter, and she too says that EC is authoritarian.
I remember when you first read this book to us and titled your post "Why you should never marry a Hohenzollern." I guess that's what Amalie titled her letter.
I like how she finishes it, "Let's be real: I probably suck too. [I was raised by Hohenzollerns, after all.]"
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Lehndorff reports that Amalie and EC had their clashes when locked up together in Magdeburg during the various evacuations, with two main motives - when churchgoing, Amalie went to Reformed service, EC went to Lutheran church "and thus we have a schisma" said Lehndorff. (Remember, the Hohenzollern were Calvinists, not Lutherans, though the majority of their subjects were Lutherans, and so were the Braunschweig in-laws. And point of contention no2. was that Fritz kept asking for Amalie when wanting visitors during the war, never for EC, which was just humiliating. (Note that Heinrich did the same thing - as Ziebura points out, while his wife had to ask repeateadly for her household budget, he was worrying in letters to Ferdinand about his sister, and when visiting Berlin for the first time in years after AW's death, he asked Amalie to meet him ahead of his arrival in Berlin, not Mina.) I wouldn't be surprised if EC emphasizing that SHE was the Queen was connected to this.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
"and thus we have a schisma" said Lehndorff.
Hee. (Also, seeing a quote from him after reading all this malicious stuff from Hervey is so refreshing!)
Remember, the Hohenzollern were Calvinists, not Lutherans, though the majority of their subjects were Lutherans, and so were the Braunschweig in-laws.
Ah! I had forgotten, thank you. This is one of those things I really should have remembered, given all the predestination and all -- although I guess part of this is that I tend to conflate "saved by God alone" with "predestination," despite valiant efforts by my spouse's (Lutheran) church members to inform me that this is Not Right :)
Also, now that I'm finally commenting on this part: HEINRICH. UGH. YOU ARE THE WORST. Well, it's good to get the problematic part of my problematic fave. I guess.
Oh no, wait, Fritz is also THE WORST:
The king invited them, but not his wife, to Potsdam and to the Turkish tent, where he had refreshments served to the ladies who wanted to watch the military parades in Berlin.
So let me get this straight... he invited his wife's sister but not him?? Good thing Louise was an angel :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
:D This is why it's funny! I love Lehndorff <3
So I feel like there is something sort of especially terrible about it being his engagement ring that he gave Mina. Not sure why I am fixated on this when the kid handoff thing was obviously way worse -- okay, yeah, probably so I don't have to look as hard at that part :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Ablenkung brachten kleine Ausflüge nach Fredersdorf zu den Podewils
"Little excursions to Fredersdorf at the Podewils' place brought some distraction."
I had to look this up: Podewils I know as Fritz's foreign minister, but my eyebrows flew up at Fredersdorf. Turns out that it's actually the name of Podewils' estate outside Berlin. Which makes sense, since all the -dorf(f)s we love or love to hate are etymologically -"village"s. The Podewils family mausoleum that our Podewils' son built is still there today, in Fredersdorf where lots of people live and commute to Berlin for work.
* This also led me to notice that Ziebura's index has a mistake: Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf is listed as EC's brother Albert's chamberlain instead of Fritz's. I can see where, if you were reading the sentence where he shows up, you could parse "seinem" as referring to Albert instead of Fritz, but yeah, the index must have been put together by an editor or assistant who didn't know too terribly much about Fritz.
* AW trying to tell Mina about his feelings about his approaching death, her trying to cheer him up, and him withdrawing and realizing he had to lie to her too: I *knew* it! People who are dying often have a very hard time getting the support they need from the people around them, because those people are overwhelmed by emotions of their own. This is why I said I'd be totally behind AW if he chose to delude everyone to keep from having to perform emotional labor for them, as opposed to for their own good.
:(
*
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
I noticed that :( Yeah, poor AW :(
have you been noticing Ziebura's frequent "despite several bloodlettings, so-and-so didn't get better"?
YES I HAVE. Every time I'm like... man, I am so glad I don't live in the 18th century! Medical care has its own problems these days, but at least they don't BLEED YOU.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Seven Years' War
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - EC and Fritz
Per Blanning:
Frederick went out of his way to emphasize his affection, as in: “I very much look forward to being back in Rheinsberg and even more to the pleasure of kissing you… May God protect you, my lady! Please do not forget me, and permit me to embrace you with all my heart, be sure that I am totally devoted to you.” But a letter written two weeks later which he expressly stated was not to be shown to his mother was appreciably less fulsome, ending simply with “your most obedient servant.”
Also in Blanning, immediately before this passage, two things that had escaped my notice:
In 1738 [Fritz] sent Prince Leopold of Anhalt-Dessau on a secret mission to the Vice-Chancellor of the Holy Roman Empire, Friedrich Karl von Schönborn, to secure imperial assistance in getting the marriage dissolved. 64 Moreover, hitherto unpublished letters from Manteuffel to other correspondents, and from Frederick to a Lieutenant von der Groeben, indicate that he continued to maintain intimate relations with young officers of his regiment. 65
64: Rudolf Endres stated this in the discussion which followed the papers given by Peter Baumgart and Volker Press at a symposium held at Bayreuth in 1986— Manfred Agethen, “Diskussionsbericht,” in Heinz Duchhardt (ed.), Friedrich der Grosse, Franken und das Reich (Cologne and Vienna, 1986), p. 196.
65: Hahn, Friedrich II., p. 47.
Better citation needed for the first one; I extremely need more details for the second one. :P Hahn, based on
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Also 20 pages of Wilhelmine memoirs, woot. I *think* she's getting slightly easier with practice. Which is good, because there's 400 pages of practice left. :D Also, these pages are longer than Ziebura's: about 100 words per page longer, according to my sampling.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
...Maybe it matters to the people who are getting paid? The economy's pretty shaky for all of you.
* Wait, Wilhelmine Encke was 12 when FW2 fell in love with her?? Also, wait, Ziebura's dates don't match Wikipedia's. According to Ziebura, she was 12 in 1764 (
Ziebura says she became his lover in 1766, at which point she would have been 14 according to Ziebura and 12 according to Wikipedia, and then official mistress in 1769, when she was 15 (and he was 24).
* Do I have this right?
Kalckreuth drops onto his knee and grabs Mina's hand just as his conspirator makes sure to lead Heinrich in. One of Mina's ladies was like, "It's not what it looks like! He was asking her permission to marry me!" Heinrich was like, "Dammit. I could have gotten a divorce. Okay, but now you have to marry her, Kalckreuth." Now loyal friend of Mina Fräulein von Morrien gets stuck married to jerk!Kalckreuth, living in East Prussia and dying in childbed a year later??
No good deed goes unpunished, I guess. :/
I'm sorry, Fräulein von Morrien!
Oof, looking at the dates, Ziebura says she was 12 years older than Kalckreuth, which means she was...41/42 when giving birth. I can see where that might have been an especially rough birth.
...Next time just punch him in the nose until he bleeds.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
I'm sorry, Fräulein von Morrien!
So am I. The daughter she had with Kalckreuth was called Wilhelmine, after Mina, I assume. The son who get the memoirs dictated to and is all "my Dad: so misunderstood!" in the introduction was from a second marriage.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
*facepalm*
One day, I will learn to countercheck German wiki! (Probably around the time I can read it without help, which we're getting closer to, woohoo.)
Now, given all the other mistresses FW2 had were older, and given the relationship with her lasted a life time, I don't think he was into pubescent girls per se, but it makes it doubly infuriating that the Prussian media - and certainly Sophie von Voss - painted her as the evil seductress.
Always blame the woman! I like Ziebura calling out "pious Louise" for not having a word to say about the 'sins' of her son, when Louise is going on about Elisabeth and how properly repentant she is.
Argh.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
So am I.
Me too :( That was a terrible story! Why does real life not conform to better storytelling conventions >:(
Maybe she at least got some good sex, Kalckreuth being hot and all? But still this all sucks.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Evidently, when she died 22 years later, her estate was used to pay off his still outstanding debts.
Wasn't Fritz still paying off 1730s debts in the 1760s? *searches* Yeah, to Joseph Wenzel, Prince of Liechtenstein, previous owner of the Antinous statue.
Lol, you guys.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
-"Louise Amalie could sense from her own experience what [Mina] was feeling. She forgot her resentment and was friendly towards her." Aw Louise, you really are the best.
-"With regard to his successor, the king asked himself the worried question: \"How can a being who cannot control himself be able to control others?"
("Sire! Half the earth obeys you:
are you yourself then, in your vast States,
the only person you cannot keep in check?"
--mildred, this is something Rodrigo says to Philip in Don Carlo :) )
she later remarked to her loyal friend, Count Lehndorff, that in all the years of their marriage they had only had eight happy days at most.
This is going to be a continual theme, but HEINRICH. YOU ARE THE WORST. I'm glad she had some friends, and that Amalie and EC and Louise and Fritz still liked her after the whole Kalckreuth thing *sigh*
Fritz: Well, I mean, I also got to tick off Heinrich. Win-win!
Lehndorff blamed Kalckreuth for all these twists and turns at the Rheinsberg court and accused the princess and her ladies of having followed his bad advice.
While I don't disagree, this is... definitely very much in character for Lehndorff *pats his head*
Friedrich wrote to his sister Ulrike von Schweden on June 10, 1767: [AW's son] was his father's image, he possessed all his good qualities without having his faults.
I know you guys have told me about this letter before, but IT IS STILL INFURIATING!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
* Rumors that Ferdinand's youngest kids weren't his--has this come up before?
* Ferdinand's first son, according to English Wikipedia (German wiki doesn't give the full names) is named...Friedrich Heinrich Emil Karl! 1769-1773. (Moral of the story: don't name your kid Beth, Cedric, or Karl Emil. :P)
* Ziebura when Fritz dies: "The mighty star that had held their lives under his spell and had determined their courses, was extinguished."
Blanning when Fritz dies: "The iron band that held them to their labors finally snapped."
Unconscious echo on Blanning's part? I wouldn't be surprised if this line was based on some contemporary account, though.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Karl Emils are doomed, clearly. At least when born into the Hohenzollern clan.
Well, Fritz as a star (making the others planets or comets?) is a far more flattering imagery than Fritz as an iron chain shackling involuntary laborers!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Well, Fritz as a star (making the others planets or comets?) is a far more flattering imagery than Fritz as an iron chain shackling involuntary laborers!
But is it more accurate, asks Heinrich. :P
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - post Seven Years' War
Though I suppose the flip side to that is that in many ways he's not super self-aware so one has to filter through that, e.g. MESSALINA :) But that's better, I suppose, than having to filter through whether he's making up stories about his exes :P )
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
Because Wilhelmine's memoirs are harder, I've been starting with them and reading as much as I can, up to 20 pages, and then doing some Wives before bed.
Wilhelmine is getting easier! I did 20 pages again today, this time in one go, and not only am I reading faster and increasingly not thinking the English translation "out loud" in my head (this has been slowly becoming a thing for a while now), but today, for the first time, I found myself skimming some function words! I've been waiting and waiting for that.
It gives me hope that by the time reading group finishes, I'll be ready to start tackling some of the items on my list, many of them Katte-related. :D
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
That must have been hard on Elisabeth, but gosh, it must have been nice for Louise to have a kiddo around, especially after all of hers kept getting taken from her :( She sounds like an extremely maternal sort.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
Fritz and AW: Only one way to raise an heir to the throne in this family, and it isn't leaving him to a mom who will be nice to him! Say goodbye to FW2, Louise!
Karl Emil: *dies*
Henricus Minor: *dies:
Wilhelmine: *has to get married at age 16*
I guess it could have been worse, if Fritz hadn't decided to make up for being awful to AW by being extra nice to Louise. THAT WILL.
ETA: No Wives tonight, I was going to, but I think I'm going to try to go to bed early instead. But let me know where you get to, and I'll catch up.
FORTY pages of Wilhelmine memoirs today! And on a workday! My German continues to improve at breakneck speed. I'm behind on commenting, because I decided to focus on German reading today. I'm highlighting things I want to talk about in both Wives and Wilhelmine, and will try to catch up this weekend. I'm also marking items to add to the chronology.
Since we're getting close to the end of Ziebura, I'm starting to work on converting the Oster Wilhelmine bio. After I finish Wives, I want to tackle that one next. Then Lehndorff!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
And I've also been low on time these days (idk, this is likely to be a thing from now on, now that the kids are going to bed later) so I'll probably also catch up discussion on the weekend (hopefully).
I've read up to Fritz's death.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
and maybe I'll actually catch up with replying to your writeups in the next nine days, lolOh! This probably means I should do the yuletide fandom promo post, huh? I'll try to see if I can do that this weekend. Will probably mostly use the post from last year, at least for Frederician.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
I won't be able to do any more write ups in the next few days, I guess.
That works out, since I want to go heads-down on German while it's starting to click but not quite there yet.
And thanks for doing the Enlightenment evidence post for us!
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
Permitted use according to the JSTOR terms of service:
Sharing of portions of Content with other individuals for the purposes of collaboration and discussion (for example, sending an individual Content item to a fellow scholar for the purpose of collaboration on a research project);
Aka, my friend, a German scholar, who is currently studying Lord Hervey and the Hannover family. ;)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
26 pages of Wives read today, and 20 of Wilhelmine! I have *one job* this weekend, and that's to read as much German as possible and see where I am on Monday. :)
I see you two updated the fic wishlist with your prompts of choice: woohoo! I shall begin pondering.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
There's only a few pages of Wives left, so let me know when you've done it, and I'll catch up the following day. Meanwhile, I'm just plowing ahead with Wilhelmine. :)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont)
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
* Heinrich started behaving a bit better toward Mina immediately after Fritz died? Of course he did. She's no longer a reminder of Fritz's ongoing power and abuse, but past power and abuse, which is slightly less painful.
Sigh.
THERAPY FOR EVERYONE, BUT ESPECIALLY MINA RN
Fritz, I guess you get therapy by death, like you always wanted. "When I am there, I will be sans souci."
:(
Oh, lol at
I laughed really hard at that, in a facepalmy kind of way.
* Zomg, and no sooner does Mina start getting to participate in society again than her health takes a nosedive and prevents her? I knew she'd lost her sight and hearing at the end of her life, but Parkinson's (probably) too?! Parkinson's is the worst. :/
* And FW2 is now siccing people Mina doesn't like on her staff? For ten plus years?? THERAPY.
* On a lighter note, I love the image of EC being *shocked* at the scandalous newfangled waltz and averting her eyes. Kids these days. :P
ETA: Aaand, we're done.
Heinrich: *looks forward to Mina's death for 48 years*
Mina: *outlives him by 6 years* Ha!
Which made me realize that, yep, that marriage lasted 50 years. Fritz/EC, 53. As I said about my grandparents' 61-year unhappy and abusive marriage: what a waste. :/ Divorce for everyone!
Also, yeah, things that didn't make it into the Heinrich bio.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
* Heinrich started behaving a bit better toward Mina immediately after Fritz died? Of course he did. She's no longer a reminder of Fritz's ongoing power and abuse, but past power and abuse, which is slightly less painful.
Ohhhhh of course, I should have realized this but mostly I was just relieved for Mina *sigh*
* And FW2 is now siccing people Mina doesn't like on her staff? For ten plus years?? THERAPY.
I knoooooow! What was UP with that, "oh, I'll move him as soon as I can," TEN YEARS LATER??
Which made me realize that, yep, that marriage lasted 50 years. Fritz/EC, 53. As I said about my grandparents' 61-year unhappy and abusive marriage: what a waste. :/ Divorce for everyone!
Geez. That is really a waste. :(
Yeah, it was a good decision to read this after Heinrich and AW, although I'm seriously side-eyeing both of them way more now. (Still OK with Heinrich fic for Yuletide, though! Just saying :) )
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
I mean, who knows what was going on in Kalckreuth's head; maybe compromising Mina was a win-win for him. Either Heinrich's grateful and takes him back, or he doesn't but now he's embroiled in a scandal.
Yeah. Kalckreuth, best of boyfriends.
I pity Fräulein von Morrien SO MUCH, marrying him to protect Mina and then dying in childbirth a year later. :/
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
In other words, I hope so too, but I have my doubts. :(
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
And you know that I think there were some feelings for Heinrich beyond ambition. I mean, an attempt like the one to see Heinrich again in the aftermath of Heinrich's second journey to Rußland (the one where Lehndorff got to give him the brush off and enjoyed every minute) could be because he still thought if they made up, he'd get back on track with fame and fortune. But after Fritz was dead, Kalckreuth's career revived and took off, big time, and Heinrich was out in the cold, so to speak, with no more influence or a career, yet Kalkcreuth wanted to see him again and at last reconcile, and did. Also, what I've read of his memoirs is ego-tastic, to be sure, but actually far more positive about Heinrich (and Fritz critical) than Ziebura led me to expect, and these were written in the 19th century, when the next generations were all Fritz worshippers and hardly knew who Heinrich had been anymore. In conclusion: Kalckreuth: a bastard and a jerk. But he did care about Heinrich.
...which of course doesn't make it more likely that he had a good sex life with his first wife, but like I said: maybe he was in a "I'll show you" mood. Also according to Lehndorff he had gotten a lot of the women of Heinrich's little court at his side, so he could be charming to the ladies if he wanted to be.
Re: No Pity for the Wives readthrough (cont) - Everyone dies off
Yes, and that is some convincing evidence. I buy it.
...which of course doesn't make it more likely that he had a good sex life with his first wife, but like I said: maybe he was in a "I'll show you" mood.
I hope so!
Also according to Lehndorff he had gotten a lot of the women of Heinrich's little court at his side, so he could be charming to the ladies if he wanted to be.
Definitely, and that did occur to me. Let's hope he kept it up with the heroine of this tragedy.
Lord Hervey (cont)
Could she have been so repulsive as Lord Egmont describes her -a fat and ill-shaped dwarf,with nothing good to recommend her, neither sense nor wit ?
*sigh* Misogyny strikes again!
In wishing to love the Prince so well he had ' ly'd egregiously; I am as incapable of wishing to love any Body else so well, as I am of wishing to love You less. God forbid any Mortal should ever have the power over me you have, or that you should ever have less. ... Adieu ,if Iwas to fill a thousand Reams of paper it would be only aiming in different phrases & still imperfectly to tell you the same thing, & assure you that since I first knew you I have been without repenting & still am & ever shall be undividedly & indisolubly Yours.'
LOLOLOL. Man, my days of considering this a gigantic soap opera are certainly reaching a middle.
The fact that he allowed other scandalous revelations (Miss Vane as Hervey's mistress, for example ) to remain in the copy of thememoirs is evidence that what he read and destroyed for the years 1730 to 1732 he regarded as far too shocking to remain among his family papers in either the autograph or the copy.
!
maybe it was a hot threesome...I see that mildred has already had this thought!
Re: Lord Hervey (cont)
Indeed. The sheer level of body shaming combined with misogyny in the 18th century is enormous. (And continues into the 19th, of course; most of the caricatures aimed at Emma Hamilton even before Nelson dies present her as enormously fat. (She did gain weight even before Nelson died, but she also was pregnant twice (the second time she lost the child).) As to Miss Anne Vane, no one, including Halsband, bothers to explain why if she had no inner or outer qualities, and wasn't rich or titled, men kept being attracted to her. More soap opera:
Once Miss Vane's position as the Prince of Wales's mistress was conspicuously secure, Hervey's emotions shifted from jealousy (for having been betrayed) to resentment, far more intense, that she had induced the Prince to discard him as intimate adviser in favour of Dodington. He determined in April 1732 to revive the Prince's friendship for him , and went about it in a foolhardy fashion . Since Miss Vane had ruined that friendship , he reasoned, then she could restore it.He composed a letter and asked his brother-in -law Bussy Mansel to take it to her, telling him that it merely recommended a midwife. Actually it castigated her for the ill service she had done him with the Prince , and threatened that if she did not repair the breach he would divulge what he knew ofher, and use her as she deserved .Upon reading this scathing letter she fell into hysterics ; and Mansel, when he read it, swore he would kill Hervey for deceiving him by making him the messenger of such an affront. To prevent murder Miss Vane then told the Prince of the letter, and he somehow placated Mansel but bitterly resented Hervey's ill treatment of his mistress. The King, Queen , and Walpole, when they heard of it, were also incensed with Hervey for his interference in a Royal pastime.
Aware too late of his iinprudence, Hervey tried to make amends. The King and Queen (and of course Walpole ) were satisfied by his penitence but not the Prince, who ( in Hervey's opinion ) ‘never forgot an injury or remembered an obligation ”. Their friendship was never restored .
As opposed to the relationship between Hervey and Miss Vane. Now you'd think after that letter, he'd have been the last man she'd ever want to see again, but lo and behold, some years later:
When he had heard of his mother's gift of the gold snuff -box (Fritz of Wales) announced that it was less to favour Hervey than to insult and outrage him , and that it was shocking for his mother to favour a man who the whole world knew had been impertinent to him and had threatened his mistress.
For that reason, he told his sisters, he seldom visited the Queen. They replied that it was strange he should think of choosing his mother's companions as a condition of his paying his respects. Hervey's favour with the Queen thus widened the breach between himself and the Prince as well as between the Prince and his mother.
But Hervey's relationship with Miss Vane had undergone a radical change in the opposite direction . Following their quarrel, when they had met among company and he had tried to speak to her she refused --- with the haughtiness of an injured princess — to bestow a glance or a word on him , though he addressed her in the most suppliant manner. After meeting in public places , however , they discovered that they wanted (in Hervey's words) ' to forget their past enmity, and renew their past endearments , till from ogling they came to messages, from messages to letters, from letters to appointments, and from appointments to all the familiarities in which they had formerly lived , both of them swearing that there never had been any interruption in the affection they bore to each other, though the effects of jealousy and rage had often made them act more like enemies than lovers'. This revival of their love affair had come about by the summer of 1734 .
At first they met in an out of the way coffee-house , and then , after Miss Vane took a house at Wimbledon (for her son's health ), she came to town secretly once a week and they met at her house there, often passing the whole night together. Although they realized it was very indiscreet their 'mutual inclination to meet forced them to this dangerous course
Their renewed friendship and liaison arose from other reasons as well. Through Miss Vane, Hervey discovered that Bubb Dodington , the Prince's chief adviser, was being displaced by others , particularly Lord Chesterfield — a clear sign that the Prince was drawing closer to the political Opposition . She would thus be able to transmit useful information to him . Her renewed taste for him could have been stimulated by the Prince's gradual distaste for herself ; a year earlier, London gossip claimed that he had fathered a child on her chambermaid , for whom he then bought a house, and that he had tried unsuccessfully to gain the favours of an Italian opera singer. The renewed alliance of Miss Vane and Hervey, then, was based on love, jealousy, and politics intriguingly mixed .
It's worth bearing in mind, though, that Halsband's sole source for these subsequent shenanigans (i.e. all that happened after the initial fallout between Hervey and the Prince over Miss Vane, for which he quotes letters and satiric poems by all the other London wits) is Hervey himself in his trashy tell all memoirs. Which,
(Given all I've heard so far, I'm tempted to think G2's instinctive reaction was: "Look, I get the temptation to kill one's son and crown prince. I want to do that all the time. But if I don't get to do it, bloody FW certainly doesn't!")
If Wilhelmine had married Fritz of Wales and had thus become involved in this soap, complete with accusations of her first baby being either someone else's or her faking the pregnancy:
Oh, boy. Yeah, I can see Wilhelmine and SD taking that one lying down. Even Fritz!
My thinking precisely. The explosion would have been something to behold.
Re: Lord Hervey (cont)
This was my reaction! "Um, they must have seen something in her..."
He composed a letter and asked his brother-in -law Bussy Mansel to take it to her, telling him that it merely recommended a midwife. Actually it castigated her for the ill service she had done him with the Prince
I must admit I laughed. Hervey, here I thought Voltaire acted like an emo teenager... omg, that whole thing is just hilariously soap opera emo. (though in a way that sounds utterly horrible for Vane herself, of course)
Although they realized it was very indiscreet their 'mutual inclination to meet forced them to this dangerous course
Me: Wow! I guess... they must have been really attracted to each other --
Selena: It's worth bearing in mind, though, that Halsband's sole source for these subsequent shenanigans (i.e. all that happened after the initial fallout between Hervey and the Prince over Miss Vane, for which he quotes letters and satiric poems by all the other London wits) is Hervey himself in his trashy tell all memoirs.
Voltaire: It's not like there's anything wrong with fabricating stories about your ex when you've had a bad breakup!
Re: Lord Hervey (cont)
Incidentally, now that I've learned how Hervey behaved in his other love triangle, I must say the cattiness in writing Algarotti that Lady Mary's looks don't match her mind looks downright mild in comparison, and again, that he kept absolutely mum about all of it and the Lady Mary haters like Pope and Horace Walpole never found out says a lot.
Re: Lord Hervey (cont)
*nods* That's a good point. Go Hervey :)
Maupertuis
In short:
Maupertuis: is born the son of an ennobled son of a privateer (= licensed by law pirate) in Saint-Malo, Brittany. He'll use the corsair association and imagery to make a splash at first, and it will even be used in his obituary. Parisian Voltaire (not born to an ennobled father but adding the "de" to his name just because he can) uses Maupertuis being from Brittany later when bickeringly corresponding with Fritz, if you'll recall. (Parisian rat Voltaire vs Breton mastiff Maupertuis. Fritz, of course, is a lion.)
His career goes very well the larger art of his life, his books are well liked; some of which are anonymously published, too, btw. And like Algarotti and the book Algarotti modelled his Newton for Ladies on which the dissertation names and I forgot, Maupertuis writes a "explaining science to a sexy lady" book. He did explain maths to Émilie early on, and Terrel quotes lettes of hers from that first period of aquaintance where she seems into him both mathematically and personally, so Maupertuis, at least, did practice the pedagogic eros in rl as well; Terrel points out that this was when a lot of writers discovered that lo and behold, female readers are a market, and not just for novels and poetry.
Speaking of, Voltaire at first was into Maupertuis as well, and claimed him as a Newtonian before Maupertuis had actually fully joined the Newtonian side of the force. (Terrel says that contrary to earlier assumptions, he wasn't yet a Newtonian when he visited England.) There's no sign of mixed feelings on Voltaire's part until Maupertuis has that military misadventure of getting captured when with Fritz at Mollwitz and Voltaire can't resist making fun of him back home in Paris, see earlier comment. Maupertuis is less than thrilled about this, but on the surface relations remain sociable and harmonius until they're both in Berlin at the same time, though a mutual acquaintance already said when the news came that Voltaire had finally given in and was on his way to Potsdam that this might not be such a good idea, because of the two egos (of Voltaire and Maupertuis, not Voltaire and Fritz). Back in the Cirey days, though, all seemed reasonably well, and I'm amused that when Maupertuis is preparing his big expedition and invites Algarotti along, our otherwise dry author observes that she can't think of what Algarotti was supposed to contribute to the expedition, "except for his company", since he wasn't a geometer, a surveyor or a man of action who couldn't have helped with the hardcore travel parts. Ms Terrell, hot stuff Algarotti was clearly part of the intendended entertainment for the Lappland nights!
The Lappland expedition - to prove the Earth flattens on top - is a big success and makes Maupertuis into an international celebrity who is much sought after in Europe from this point onwards. He does get into the Academie in France, so it's not like Fritz was the without alternatives, but then they didn't offer to make him head of the Academie which is what Fritz offered for the Berlin Academie, plus everyone wrote glowingly about the new philosopher king, so off to Prussia Maupertuis went, and got bored, see Mildred's tale about how all the intellectuals were widdling their thumbs while Fritz was off conquering Silesia. Maupertuis was the only one who made the mistake of following him into the field and getting captured. Then, as detailed in the earlier comment, after a few days he was identified by Count Neipperg and got ever courtesy, including a round trip to Vienna and then back to Berlin. By which time Voltaire from France and Fritz from nearer by cracked jokes and Maupertuis just about had it and left Prussia again. (I have to say, his story about his reception at Vienna, which is partly in the main text and partly in a footnote, would have deserved some authorial scepticism from Terrel. I can buy FS gave him a golden watch to compensate him from the one stolen from him in the scuffle of him getting taken prisoner, but the supposed dialogue with MT about who's the most beautiful Queen of them all really defies belief.)
Maupertuis does eventually return and takes his place as head of the Academy, and that's when valuable research stuff happens in this biography.
Fritz: I want the Academy to be a true republic of intellectuals. I'm just one of its citizens here, and I want you to treat my contributions as you do any other. Also, forget about the old place where the Academy, such as it was, met in my father's day, used to me and about the places where you met while I was off making war, I'm telling you where I want you to meet, of course.
Maupertuis: ...Okay. Academy members, we will model this Academy and its interactions on the new modern state of Prussia. I'm Fritz, of course. You're everyone else.
German academy members: We feel discriminated against anyway because of Fritz and his French hangup. I mean, we're not even allowed to hand in papers in our own language or Latin without also adding a translation into French at our own expense. And now we're getting bossed around not just by the King but this French guy who doesn't talk German at all? Grrr. Argh.
Maupertuis: Wolff, want to come?
Wolff: No way. I'm staying in Halle. Teaching in German.
Maupertuis: I'm getting a sense of some German hostility here. Also, all Germans are foodies. Direct quote: “Experience teaches me that there is nothing so prejudicial to the progress ofthe sciences in Germany as giving them too much to eat and drink. There is no one who will not abandon Homer when he hears the dinner bell. " Clearly, some more calling for discipline on my part is the way to proceed. After all, I'm the Fritz here.
Maupertuis: on the bright side, becomes bff with Euler and makes a friend in Kästner who is his eyes and ears in the camp of the enemy, aka Halle, where Wolff resides.
Maupertuis: Also gets married to Fräulein von Borck, scion of one of the old Brandenburg families
Mary Terrel: shame we don't know anything about her other than she did her best for her husband's work and memory to florish after his death, so she must have been devoted to him.
Mary Terrel: clearly hasn't read Lehndorff's journals, where Madame Maupertuis shows up a couple of times, notably when Amalie gives her some jewelry so she can make the journey to her dying husband in the middle of the war.
Early Academy feuding not starring either Maupertuis or Voltaire: *happens*
Maupertuis: *staying above it all* Remember, members: Dignity! Always dignity!
Émilie: *dies*
Mary Terrel: And then Voltaire showed up. "Friedrich had tried to woo him with flattering letters and with lavish gifts for years."
Voltaire: Lavish what? He haggled about my travel expenses!
König: Earlier, the Academy had done a competition like the one in Paris, I made an entry, and I lost. This endeared Maupertuis to me enormously.
Gottsched (remember him?) and other German intellectuals: We think the Academy is a bunch of foreign elitist snobs and their cowed German lackeys. If it's supposed to make local culture florish, where's the local culture in it? And how's the President ever supposed to get a clue about if he still doesn't speak German?
Maupertuis: *writes treatise and the principle of least action*
König: *writes attack on the treatise, complete with Leipniiz quote and accusation that Maupertuis isn't just wrong on the larger point, he also uses stuff Leipniz already said*
Maupertuis: How dare he! Of course I, as President, can't reply to this outrage in person. Faithful subjects, I mean, academy members, pray deal with König.
Quote: The generally hostile treatment of the management of the Berlin Academy in the German press had primed Maupertuis to respond forcefully to König, a more accessible and more vulnerable target than Gottsched or anonymous journalists. Seeing his scientific accomplishments and his personal integrity called into question, Maupertuis took steps to
demonstrate his power to silence " scoundrels" . (...)
Maupertuis made a strategic decision to focus on the authenticity of the letter, suspecting König's vulnerability on this point. As he explained later to d'Alémbert, “ instead of disputing with him , I limited myself to pressing him to produce
the original, regarding it anyway as quite a mark of approval to want to attribute the basis [ofmy principle ] to the great Leibniz.” If all went well, the disciplining of König might be turned into positive publicity for the principle of least action . The Academy formally demanded that König produce the letter which turned out to be a copy, and then initiated a search for the original in Hermann's papers in Switzerland. Maupertuis used his prerogative to make the dispute a matter of honor for his institution and for the king. (...) Publicly, Maupertuis limited his concern to the existence and authenticity of the letter ; privately , he hoped to expose his accuser as a charlatan ,“ to bury König in the mud as he deserves." (...)
Euler bent to the task with a will,no doubtharboring his own hostility to the Wolffian professor who had defended monads to the Academy a few years before:When König could not produce the letter,Euler submiitted a report, concluding "that (König's ] cause is completely 'untenable and that this fragment was forged, either to wrong M.de Maupertuis; or to exaggerate bý a pious fraud the praises of the great Leibniz ." 86 The evidence for forgery was circumstantial, bur König had muddied his claims with so many improbable and unsubstantiated explanations that Euler stated his condemnation in the strongest possible terms. In April 1752, the Academy voted unanimously to approve Euler's report, although there was some private grumbling about the president's righthold on power, and bitterness about the impossibility of dissent. A footnote here provides the direct quote from a German academy member: Weil Maupertuis alle Gewaltin Händen hat,und man nicht sehr laut gegen ihn reden darf , so ist die Verbitterung im Geheim desto stärker, und dises thut der Academie grossen Schaden "
(Sulzer to Künzli, April 1752, quoted in Harnack , Geschichte, 1 (1 ): 338 , n.2 ).
And only at this point, according to Terrel, Voltaire enters the struggle.
Voltaire: I actuallly have no idea whether Maupertuis is correct about the principle of least action without Émiilie explaining it to me, but I do know a bully when I see one, and also, I could think of a better president of the Academy, namely, me. Be that as it may: have a satiric pamphlet. Or several.
Maupertuis: But...?
Academy members: OMG!
Europe: *Popcorn*
Terrel: and from this point onwards, no one cared about the principle of least action, or Leipniz. Voltaire had turned it into a literary quarrel, and then Fritz intervened, and at this point König and Maupertuis could do little more than watch along with the rest.
Maupertuis: Surely, with the King himself defending me, I don't have to respond to these outrages. Everyone will see right is on my, that is, our side!
Everyone: No idea who's right, but Voltaire is funnier. Also, did Fritz just burn a book? Mr. Enlightened Monach? OMG!
Maupertuis: *can't even enjoy the Frankfurt drama, because now he's in bad health*
Maupertuis: Okay, two more years in Prussia, but in late 1755 I'm off to go to France before the benefit of my health. Can I have paid leave, your majesty? I promise to comeback.
Fritz: That' what Algarotti said. But okay, you've been through a lot.
Maupertuis: *meets Voltaire's sworn enemy Fréron, a journalist*
Maupertuis: *writes to Fritz* Sire, until now I've kept a dignified silence, but now I've met this Fréron guy who says he can bury Voltaire, and I'm just thinking, how about I give him a tell-all to show how noble you've behaved in all this, defending me, and how dastardly Voltaire?
Fritz: I don't think that's a good idea.
Maupertuis: Sorry, Fréron, you can't be my revenge ghost writer, but I can tell you some stuff about Voltaire THAT UNSPEAKABLE BASTARD which you can use in some other pamphlets.
1756: Arrives. With the Diplomatic Revolution.
Fréron: So, dear readers, my personal conclusion is that Maupertuis and Voltaire are both dirty traitors to France who should never allowed Fritz to lure them away from la patrie anyway. Wasn't France good enough for them anymore? Stay tuned for me attacking Voltaire on the Mademoiselle Corneille front soon.
Maupertuis: OMG. Fritz and France at war? What is my duty here? If I go back to Berlin now, I'm definitely a traitor. But Fritz has been good to me, that making fun of my Austrian captivity post Mollwitz bit aside.
Some French friends: You could resign from your office as President of the Academy at least.
Maupertuis: No. That's part of my income. Also it's a nice honor. And Fritz would take it personal as hell. What if he wins this war and I can't go back to Prussia? My wife is there! This was just supposed to be some months back home in Brittany to recover my health!
Euler: Dear M, don't worry, I'm running the Academy for you. Take as much time as you need. The war will be over soon, surely.
Maupertuis: *tries to be diplomatic, congratulating Fritz on his military successes and asking for save routes from France to Berlin, but never actually going*
Maupertuis: *dies*
French Academy of Science: Traitor.
Academy Francaise: No, a man of lettres and esprit! Have some favourite works! And his style! He paints with so much warmth , with so much liveliness , thathe transports us to the very places he describes. One scales with him the summits ofHorrilakero; one follows him on the frozen waters of Tornea; one flies at his sideon the fragile sleds of the Laplander."
Academy in Berlin: Total hero: Saint Malo is a kind of republic of Argonauts ; M.de Maupertuis's compatriots ... bring back to their fatherland (patrie) çiçhes which they have often devoted to the defense and health of that same country in the most glorious manner.M.de Maupertuis was the Jason of a different class of Argonauts . The treasures, he sought in the world's extremities are themost precious of all that enrich the mind, and he shared them not only with his country (patrie ),but with the whole human race.
Euler: He was the best. But seeing as he's dead now, and I've been running the Academy de facto since he left, how about making me the next President, Sire?
Fritz: ...You're German.
Euler: Fuck you. I'm off to St. Petersburg as soon as the war is over.
Re: Maupertuis
That's exactly why I got it, and why I gave it to you. It was useful for "Lovers" already!
our otherwise dry author observes that she can't think of what Algarotti was supposed to contribute to the expedition, "except for his company", since he wasn't a geometer, a surveyor or a man of action who couldn't have helped with the hardcore travel parts. Ms Terrell, hot stuff Algarotti was clearly part of the intendended entertainment for the Lappland nights!
Lol! I noticed that! Dissertation author thinks he was supposed to contribute science, since he had experience reproducing Newton's experiments with prisms, and in fact was the first person in Italy to successfully reproduce the results.
But obviously you're right, Algarotti is supposed to be the antidote to the cold nights! I can just imagine our favorite people pleaser exhausted in the mornings from a less than restful night. :D
Maupertuis: Also gets married to Fräulein von Borck, scion of one of the old Brandenburg families
Terrell's footnote helped me figure out who the Borck was who was Peter's predecessor as Academy curator! We're definitely collecting Borcks; there were a few mentions in recent Ziebura reading, and those I still haven't sorted out.
(I have to say, his story about his reception at Vienna, which is partly in the main text and partly in a footnote, would have deserved some authorial scepticism from Terrel. I can buy FS gave him a golden watch to compensate him from the one stolen from him in the scuffle of him getting taken prisoner, but the supposed dialogue with MT about who's the most beautiful Queen of them all really defies belief.)
Right?
Maupertuis: ...Okay. Academy members, we will model this Academy and its interactions on the new modern state of Prussia. I'm Fritz, of course. You're everyone else.
I thought this was a very fascinating part of the book. And I totally believe the vote was unanimous because dissenters were intimidated, what with Fritz : Prussia :: Maupertuis : Academy.
Thank you for the hilarious and educational soap opera! I laughed and facepalmed with delight all the way through. :D You have a way with words; plus, this will make another excellent addition to
Re: Maupertuis
Maupertuis: ...Okay. Academy members, we will model this Academy and its interactions on the new modern state of Prussia. I'm Fritz, of course. You're everyone else.
...wow! This... explains a lot.
Ms Terrell, hot stuff Algarotti was clearly part of the intendended entertainment for the Lappland nights!
HAHAHAHA I laughed out loud because it is true!
Voltaire: I actuallly have no idea whether Maupertuis is correct about the principle of least action without Émiilie explaining it to me
LOLOLOL ALSO TRUE :DDDD
I did think that was very interesting in regards to the feud (and how König muddies the waters so much), and how Voltaire sails in and makes it a literary drama instead of a mathematical/plagiarist one. ...Was König right (or does anyone now think he was), does Terrell say?
Also Euler! Man, Fritz, if you hadn't had such a hangup about German you could have had *Euler* as your Academy President!
Re: Maupertuis
Doesn't it just? Among other things, why I don't doubt Voltaire had a variety of self-related motives for his intervention - from possible leftover Émilie-related jealousy to present day Fritz related jealousy -, Maupertuis running the Academy like an absolutist state was bound to stir him into action sooner or later. Voltaire: never met an authority figure or institution in his life he didn't at the very least needle if not actively antagonize.
Terrell gave me the impression that mathematically, Maupertuis was right, but he was wrong to accuse König of forgery.
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
I was thinking about the possibility of putting the fic snippets on AO3 itself so that other people could read them :) (Oh come on, doesn't everyone want to read the outline of Fritz/Joseph marriagefic? OF COURSE THEY DO.) I was thinking maybe just one AO3 work, with each different snippet as a different chapter. Rheinsberg would work too, of course.
I'm for collecting all the prompts at a Rheinsberg post. Not sure about the round robin and fic snippets at the A03; for now, I'd rather see them also at Rheinsberg.
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
For the list of prompts, I'm with
So a doc that all three of us could update as we got especially excited about an idea or less excited about an old one would be great.
I can create the doc and start populating it if people are on board with it, and then you two can add your own preferences (and keep updating as your interests evolve)?
I'm also happy to start putting snippets in Rheinsberg if we have agreement. I think there are enough of them that it makes sense to put them in separate posts and tag them, as opposed to one post behind cut tags. And of course, as time goes on, that number will only grow!
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
I also went ahead and nominated "18th Century CE European Enlightenment RPF" with Émilie, Pompadour, Hervey and Madame Denis;
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
fandom: 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
character 1: Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
character 2: Catherine II of Russia
character 3: Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
character 4: Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
fandom: 18th Century CE Enlightenment RPF
character 1: Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
character 2: Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
character 3: Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
character 4: Francesco Algarotti
Also, I had to change some of the writeup for last year and I added a bunch of links to
But someone else is going to have to write about how great Emilie is, because I tried briefly and I honestly don't know enough about the Enlightenment not to sound dumb doing it :P
FANDOM NAME: 18th Century CE Frederician RPF
Content notes: Really abusive and dysfunctional family
WHAT MAKES IT GREAT: Would you like a fandom with all kinds of canon slash tropes (mean abusive dad who might have been suppressing his own slashy tendencies, tragic love story with loyal best friend)? Would you like a fandom about a magnificent bastard royal figure who is a modernist and reformer (and very much into freedom of speech and religion) for his time but also likes to invade various territories for fun and profit? Would you like a fandom with interesting, layered female characters, including a woman who becomes Empress despite all of Europe thinking this is hilarious being that she's a WOMAN?
Let me introduce you to Frederick the Great / Friedrich II / "Fritz" fandom. Boy/adolescent Fritz is beaten and publicly humiliated by his father (Friedrich Wilhelm), and his boyfriend (Peter Keith) is deported when his father catches them. He falls in love again, and he and his new boyfriend (Hans Hermann von Katte) try to escape, but dad catches them and executes Katte -- and orders Fritz to watch (though evidence seems to show that Fritz was not in fact made to watch). Katte's last words are some variation on, "I die for you with joy in my heart!"
Fritz earns his freedom by marrying a woman (Elisabeth Christine), whom he sees... approximately once a year, for dinner. He eventually becomes king when his father dies, at which point he turns out to be pretty much a spectacularly magnificent bastard. On one hand, Voltaire reports on Fritz' liberal tendencies that he said, "In this country, there is freedom of conscience and penis." On the other hand, Fritz also goes around breaking treaties and invading people on paper-thin and/or really zero justification. Hilariously, he first writes the Anti-Machiavel, basically saying "You should definitely positively not break treaties and invade other people just because you can," and then a whole three months later invades Maria Theresia's province of Silesia, just because he can. (Later he tells his people to go look for a historical claim to Silesia, which they find.) Maria Theresia, meanwhile, fights three wars with Fritz, after which he gets to keep Silesia.
On the family front, Fritz goes on to treat his brothers... in a way rather reminiscent of the way his father treated him. He doesn't execute anyone's lover, but after a bunch of emotional beating up of his brother August Wilhelm, August Wilhelm dies of what everyone else in the family -- except Fritz -- thinks is a broken heart. (It may have been porphyria.) Yeah, lots of dysfunctional family in this fandom.
And I haven't even gotten into the snarky Voltaire/Fritz frenemy ship, culminating in Voltaire trolling the world by fabricating mean stories about his ex which weren't realized to be fabrications for two hundred years! Or his brother Heinrich who had a love/hate relationship with Fritz and was BFF's with Catherine the Great!
WHERE CAN I FIND IT? (optional):
The best primer for this for a total beginner is probably
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
The reason I specifically ask is that you have the key Katte nomination, and this way if anyone else is thinking of nominating in the fandom, they will not have to repeat that nomination, and further will know that it's in the tag set before it comes out. Trying to maximize your chances of getting Katte fic! :)
(Apologies if you already did and my search-fu is not good enough.)
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
On that note, odds of me being up to an Enlightenment write-up today are slim. Sorry. :( But I will do the nomination coordination stuff, and put the Oster bio through the translator!
Man, I hope I get enough sleep to write Yuletide fic. The last time I had solid sleep was October of last year, right before Yuletide started. :/
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
I hope you get enough sleep to write Yuletide fic too!
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
...You might have to do that!
Oster uploaded. Let me know if there are any problems accessing it. Lady Mary correspondence volumes 1-3 on their way to USPS, per tracking info updates. Yuletide nomination coordination done.
Reading of Wilhelmine, vol. 1, not quite finished, but hopefully before bed. Ugh, tired.
I hope you get enough sleep to write Yuletide fic too!
Fingers crossed! I should add that the bulk of RMSE writing happened in a brief period when I was getting adequate sleep, only during the day, and writing at night. Since that's not very lucrative, I've switched to being awake during the day, putting in as many hours at work as I can, and hoping my brain gets the message about sleeping at night sooner or later.
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
Hm. Do you think your body finds daytime a better time to sleep?
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
Émilie du Chatelet: ca twelve minutes vid about Émilie and why she's cool, and
Clips from the play about her, "The Marquise du Chatelet defends her life tonight".
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
(Also, hmm, I just went to look for what we were naming this and morbane seems to think it's still too broad. I wonder if we should maybe even just go with "Francesco Algarotti's friends and lovers," lol.
Mods don't have to know that this is still extremely broadThough since no one but us will have heard of Algarotti, I actually kind of wonder whether we should put Voltaire in the title (something like "Voltaire's friends" or "Two degrees from Voltaire"??) -- that way other people will be interested as well, and I think most of the people we are trying to nominate could be connected to him in some way?)FANDOM NAME: whatever we end up naming it
WHAT MAKES IT GREAT:
The Age of Enlightenment was a time in the 18th Century when philosophers and scientists got very excited about reason! science! liberty! and other such matters. [this is the bit that sounds dumb to me, please fix this]
There were some very interesting and cool people who were part of this movement. My favorite is Émilie du Châtelet, who was super awesome. She was Voltaire's lover, but she could run circles around him in terms of science and mathematical prowess. Her mathematics tutor wrote to a friend when he first began giving lessons to her and to Voltaire that she was 'altogether remarkable,' while he could not even make the other understand what mathematics was. She couldn't find a good textbook to teach her son physics, so she just wrote her own! She wrote a translation/analysis of Newton's Principia (and was correcting the proofs while recovering from childbirth, and sent them off a day before she died) that was so great that it is still the standard in France today.
She was part of a larger group of people who were also really interesting (though Émilie is my fave). [Depending on whether we're calling out the relationship to Voltaire] Voltaire is, of course, fascinating: he was always there for the underdog, although if you weren't an underdog you were likely to feel the sting of his pen! Francesco Algarotti was a polymath and dabbled in all kinds of different things, including having sex with... quite a lot of people! Including a love triangle with the writer Lady Mary Wortley Montagu and the politican and writer Lord Hervey (who also got embroiled in other political-sexual scandals related to the royal family).
Basically, this whole thing is a giant soap opera, with Émilie as the Mary Sue super-heroine, only she's actually real :D
WHERE CAN I FIND IT?(optional): I'll put in the clips here, as well as link to the rheinsberg post, but I need to sleep now so will do it tomorrow, or after we find a name for our fandom...
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
Somewhat, but I feel like that's the least of the problems. The biggest of my many sleep problems is that once my sleep gets disrupted, it stays disrupted for a very long time. Naturally, it also gets disrupted extremely easily. :/
I have to say, as much fun as it was being online at the same time, it's *way* better for my sleep for you not to be leaving comments right when I'm trying to go to bed. My willpower isn't that strong! Tell your kids they have my permission to stay up late. :P
Re: Yuletide Nominations, Redux
Wilhelmine's Memoirs
On the other hand! Maybe Manteuffel was Diable, and his very short successor was Diablotin. That actually makes sense.
It does, and it's entirely possible that this was an early Suhm nickname before everyone got to know him better, and then Fritz named him Diaphenes for the reasons your beautiful story provides.
Lady Darlington aka Sophia von Kielmannsegg: speaking of putting the pieces together, her mother was the same Countess Platen wo played a role in bringing the Sophia Dorotha the older/Count Königsmarck affair out in the open and thus getting SD locked up for life and Königsmarck killed. No wonder SD was wary.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
Exactly what I was thinking! If your predecessor is "Devil", "Little Devil" is exactly what you get called when you first show up, he's still fresh in everyone's minds, and you're short. ;)
"Diaphanes" may actually have been as late as 1736. I have no evidence for it before that, and Wilhelmine (who's admittedly been away for years) doesn't seem to know about it.
her mother was the same Countess Platen wo played a role in bringing the Sophia Dorotha the older/Count Königsmarck affair out in the open and thus getting SD locked up for life and Königsmarck killed.
Ooooh. Wow, yeah, it's good to know about all these little connections.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
* Wilhelmine agrees about Anglo-centrism: she gets introduced to G1's retinue, they all say she looks English and speaks English like a native and is clearly destined to be their queen someday, and she writes: "This means something, since the English think of themselves as the best, and if they say someone could pass for an English(wo)man, they think this is the highest praise they can give."
You're not wrong, Wilhelmine!
* On Cardinal Richlieu: Did too much evil to be praised, too much good to be spoken evil of.
* Lol at SD trying to distract FW by claiming Wilhelmine says her dog is better than SD's dog, and Wilhelmine, playing along, is like, "But of course! My dog is so sweet and smart! <3 <3 <3"
Also, good to know she has her own dog already. I know one of the famous paintings of Fritz and Wilhelmine as small children has a dog in it, but I've always been curious at what age they got to have their very own dogs. I mean, since staff was going to take care of it anyway, maybe from the beginning?
Did Fritz have a dog that missed him while he was in Küstrin? Did he get it back at Ruppin? Did he have to get a new dog? Did he not get to have a dog until Rheinsberg? I need to know these things!
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
Sudden thought: dogs are used for hunting. Maybe when FW was trying to make Fritz the hunter happen, he got a hunting dog as bribery?
Or maybe FW thought dogs were for girls and women, full stop, but I doubt it, since the picture of him as a kid is showing him with a dog as well, and he's stroking its head.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
That's always been my guess too! But yes, it's just a guess.
Sudden thought: dogs are used for hunting. Maybe when FW was trying to make Fritz the hunter happen, he got a hunting dog as bribery?
Maybe! I know that when FW was dying, he's supposed to have let the Old Dessauer take his pick of the royal hunting dogs, since he knew Fritz wasn't interested.
Or maybe FW thought dogs were for girls and women, full stop, but I doubt it, since the picture of him as a kid is showing him with a dog as well, and he's stroking its head.
Am I recalling correctly that that was a hunting dog, though? I've always seen Fritz described as unusual not in that he loved his dogs, but that he was a male monarch who loved lap dogs with no purpose other than keeping him company.
Also, one thing that always struck me as weird was that Fritz said when he was being forced to hunt as a teenager, he used to stop the dogs, but "I had to be careful: if I'd stepped on one (si j'avais marché sur un), the King would have screamed." Source: Catt's diary.
Maybe I'm just not clear on the logistics of the hunt here, or maybe "marché" is something other than "stepped on" (I know it's "walk" most often). But Fritz is having to be careful not to step on dogs, not because he doesn't want to hurt the dog, but because FW would be upset at Fritz sneaking his way out of the hunt? Otherwise, he would totally step on the dog? I mean, I can see FW's hunting dogs being a form of torture rather than a creature he feels empathy for, but I feel like I'm missing something here.
The complete passage, which is very telegraphic:
Il voulut que je fusse chasseur. On me donna toute l'éducation convenable. Il fallait courir: j'arrêtais les chiens; et il fallait bien prendre garde. Si j'avais marché sur un, le Roi aurait crié. Le piqueur était bien aise que j'arrêtais.
Translation, at a guess:
He wanted me to be a hunter. I was given the appropriate training. It was necessary to run: I used to stop the dogs, and I had to be on my guard. If I had walked/stepped on one, the King would have yelled. The master of hounds was glad that I would stop.
?
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
he was a male monarch who loved lap dogs with no purpose other than keeping him company.
King Charles II.: I would like to point out I got there first. Spaniels I adored/named after me, too/Like me, they were fun/with a natty hairdo.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
Ooh, that makes sense! I was thinking of Fritz's claims that he used to read during the hunt, but of course, if everyone is still moving, just more slowly, then he might very well accidentally step on a dog's foot and have to watch out.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
* Suhm cameo! FW is going to Saxony, Fritz is sad because he's not invited, Wilhelmine tells Suhm, Suhm tells Augustus the Strong, and Augustus obligingly invites Fritz, and FW lets him come. And then the whole insane Dresden interlude ensues.
Wilhelmine says she knew Suhm "very well" and he was very friendly to her brother. <3
* I was right about Wilhelmine attributing her brother's interest in
people who were not herto the lack of governor's influence: immediately before Peter Keith is introduced, she says, "Dad was whaling on Fritz more than usual, nobody dared to talk to him, his governors didn't dare to follow him around and regulate his behavior, so he led a very dissolute life, with Page Keith as his pander."Fritz is in disgrace with his father and therefore the people appointed by FW to make him behave don't dare speak to him to make him behave?? Much more likely: Keyserlingk was like, "Wow, this kid's life sucks. I think I'll look the other way while he explores his sexuality. Then someday I'll be on the top 6 list of most loved, and he'll cut my daughter some slack while she has sexual adventures after my death."
Wow, she doesn't like his boyfriends.
[Fritz] entirely abandoned himself to debaucheries. One of the pages of the king, named Keith, was the pandar of his vices. This young man had found means to insinuate himself so much, that the prince was passionately fond of him, and gave him his entire confidence. I knew nothing of his irregularities, but I had noticed some familiarities which he had with this page, and I often reproached him about it; representing to him that such manners were unsuitable to his rank. But he excused himself, saying that as the young man reported to him all that passed, he was induced to treat him kindly; particularly as the information he conveyed to him, saved him from many vexations.
Classist, homophobic, or both? I mean, I know it's a cover for "Don't leeeeave meeeee!", but given that she can't say that in so many words, how would Fritz have perceived it?
Also, lol at Peter as pander. I mean, I'm sure if Fritz wanted to meet with Doris or Orzelska-in-disguise, Peter would help! But yeah, things are going to be interesting when it's Fritz, Wilhelmine, Katte, and Keith in exile in France together. I bet she'll write an opera. :P
* Wilhelmine on Fritz of Wales, the love rat:
A man who has mistresses, becomes attached to them, and to that degree his love for his true spouse diminishes.
This is so telling: love is a zero sum game, Fritz can't have boyfriends or love his wife, her husband definitely can't have mistresses, and she is *not* down for polyamory. She's in the majority, even today, obviously! But that possessiveness is very IC.
* Herr von Knyphausen cameo! Assuming it's the same guy, and since he seems to be hobnobbing with foreign envoys, I think it is...we know him as 1) the go-between for Fritz and French Count Rottembourg, since Rottembourg and Fritz had to pretend not to be interested in each other while they spied on FW and tried to arrange a coup, and 2) Peter's future father-in-law. Although he will die 10 years before Peter and Ariane get married, and it's
Ugh, German wiki tells me that in addition to having been envoy to places like France, Spain, Russia, and Denmark back in the day, he was also president of the Brandenburg-African company, aka the Prussian slave trade, until F1 dissolved it. Bad Knyphausen.
* FW threatening to lock Wilhelmine up with the guy he's trying to get her to marry, the Duke of Weißenfels, and says that after that, she'll be only too glad to marry him. Is that a rape threat or just a loss of reputation threat?
* According to Wilhelmine, Jean-Charles de Folard, who Wikipedia tells me was a famous military theorist, did a detailed description of the Zeithain camp. I would very much like to get my hands on that, since I really want a detailed description beyond what I've been able to find online so far. (Reason: fix-it fic opens with Fritz and Katte at the camp, where they make their escape from.)
* Remember the rats at Küstrin story, where Fritz tells Wilhelmine that ghosts are mostly rats?
Wilhelmine recounts a similar episode, where she and SD were hanging out and heard some horrible shrieking sound in a nearby corridor, but every time they went to investigate, there was nothing there. SD told her to mark the date, and it turned not only to be the same day that Fritz got arrested for trying to escape while on a road trip with FW, but the same corridor on which FW and SD had their first encounter when an angry FW returned.
Wilhelmine: "I believe there was a natural cause."
She never figured out what it was, but she evidently agrees with Fritz on the supernatural.
* Wilhelmine is corresponding with an imprisoned Fritz secretly, but can't bring herself to burn the letters, so she has them sent to safety. This means she might actually have had access to them all when writing the memoirs. She does claim to be copying some verbatim, but I'd always assumed most of them got burned. Guess not!
* Wilhelmine: repeatedly mentions that she got married for Fritz, and later will complain that he wasn't grateful. Does not mention, at least as far as I've read, and I've gotten to the Berlin revue in May, that Fritz wrote her a letter telling her not to, i.e. that he was willing to sacrifice himself for *her*.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
Remember Katte's interrogation, which greatly emphasizes how he tried to talk Fritz out of it and throw up lots of obstacles, and never ever actually encouraged it except in order to prevent it from happening? And how none of us actually believe that's the whole story? Especially given that 1) he wanted to stay in England permanently just a year before, 2) he totally admitted he would have gone if Fritz had gone?
And you know how Oster is constantly emphasizing the ways in which Wilhelmine's memoirs were written with the benefit of hindsight and attribute a lot of correct opinions and emotions to her that the contemporary documentary evidence at least partially contradicts?
And how Oster is highly skeptical that Fritz's closest confidante knew that he wanted to escape in general, but had nooo idea about the concrete details of this particular plan?
And how Fritz was pawning jewelry that Wilhelmine and SD had given him, supposedly without telling them why he wanted it?
And how Wilhelmine claims she and SD had to destroy a bunch of letters, and Katte may have risked his life to make sure they got destroyed, NOT because they showed her personal involvement in the escape plan, but because of double-marriage scheming and trash-talking of FW? But now that the letters are destroyed, we don't know *what* they contained?
...Yeah.
Now, I'm willing to believe both Katte and Wilhelmine were reluctant conspirators. Especially Wilhelmine, who didn't have any prospect of escaping with him, and who would be punished, and, most of all, left behind, notwithstanding Fritz's optimism that the Hannovers will help make everything work out for her in the long run. And both Wilhelmine and Katte could probably see that this wasn't the most well-thought-out plan ever.
But did Wilhelmine try to help make it happen, give him her jewelry, etc? We'll never know, but none of the evidence we have is exactly inconsistent with that. It's not like I think she'd admit it in her memoirs, even after Fritz is king (and even if she wasn't writing under threat of torture, like Katte, her memoirs were started when FW was still king, remember), not after the plan failed catastrophically and even Fritz is regretting it.
Oh, and speaking of Katte risking his life over those letters, I meant to point out in the Oster thread that Oster reports that Katte stayed behind because he didn't think there was any danger of Fritz fleeing when he, Katte, had the money--and adds that this was a disastrous miscalculation that cost him his life, *and* that his reasoning was incomprehensible, since Fritz was telling Katte to meet up with him in the Hague, so Katte should have known lack of money wouldn't be an obstacle.
To which I'm like, "Yeah, so MAYBE that wasn't Katte's real reason??" This kind of thing is what I mean by not being impressed with Oster's scholarship: there are so many other reasons given in our sources, even in Wilhelmine's memoirs, for Katte's lingering that you can't just take the one from his interrogation (under threat of torture! where he has to deny that he had any reason to believe he knew his arrest was impending!), announce that his reasoning doesn't make any sense, and stop there.
Like, just out of sheer psychology, even if we had no other sources, I could come up with other reasons someone might choose to stay. Not least that if you stay, you at least haven't committed desertion and can hope to insist on your innocence (an argument that carried some weight during the trial and would have gotten him a ten-year imprisonment if not for FW), whereas if you flee, you *have* committed desertion, and you're in Berlin, not Wesel, and you might GET CAUGHT.
Seriously. That's not even taking into account the actual reasons given by Fritz and Wilhelmine for why he lingered, both of which are plausible if you consider the evidence external to them that Katte did know his arrest was coming and had to deny it.
That's *also* not taking into account the documentary evidence that he requested leave to go into the countryside and received it, but didn't get to use it in time to get out of Berlin before his arrest.
Oh, and Oster does something that I've seen other biographers do: quote Wilhelmine saying Katte was so indiscreet as to go around telling "the whole city" about the escape plan, and implicitly chide Katte for it, without recounting that the actual episode in her memoirs went like this:
Some courtiers: Hey, Wilhelmine, you know that Katte is telling everyone your brother wants to escape?
Wilhelmine: Katte, how could you?!
Katte: I never did! I only told Lovenorn, who's totally on our side. [He will later be the one who supposedly tells Katte his arrest is coming and he'd better get the hell out of Dodge, and Fritz will still be remembering him fondly and wanting to know how he's doing nine years later.]
Now, maybe Katte *was* indiscreet! I'm not absolving him just on his own word. But nobody, when citing this passage, ever seems to point out that even Wilhlelmine says he denied it. We simply have no way of knowing.
And if you think, well, obviously some people know Fritz is planning an escape and it involves Katte, so someone must have told someone something!...remember, Rottembourg in Madrid 2 years earlier knew Fritz planned to escape, and I totally believe Wilhelmine's account that Katte was running around telling everyone that the Crown Prince loved him and confided in him. That's how you act whether you're genuinely head over heels in reciprocated love or just exploiting a royal for all the favor you can get out of him while pretending to be in love with him.
It wouldn't have been that hard to put two and two together, even if Katte had kept totally mum about the escape (and I'm not saying he did).
So, yeah. I feel like a lot of reading between the lines needs to be done for this whole episode, given how everyone after the fact wants to disclaim any connection with the catastrophe.
Lol, I'm reminded of what I was reading immediately before I switched to Fritz: 4th century Athenian oratory, where as soon as the Peace of Philocrates was seen to have failed miserably, Athenian politicians were falling all over themselves to announce that they knew it was a bad idea from the beginning.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
re: did Wilhelmine know more about the escape plan than she later admitted, given how it turned: FW certainly believed she did, and it would work with the need to destroy those letters and her giving Fritz jewelry to pawn. It would even work with the later "I sacrificed myself for his freedom" without mentioning Fritz told her not to re: the marriage, because while she can talk about the marriage, she wouldn't be able to talk about the earlier escape attempt, if she was involved - and if she helped him there, she certainly would have been willing to risk FW making her pay in the worst way for his, had Fritz succeeded, and it would have been a sacrifice. (Honestly, there's no way I can see FW allowing Wilhelmine to marry a Hannover afterwards. She'd have been extremely lucky if he married her to anyone at all, as opposed to do what he claimed he'd have done in the 1731 submission scene - shut her into into the worst prison he could find.)
This prospect is why I'm also not 100% sure she'd have done it. If she believed Fritz would otherwise die or commit suicide out of desperation over FW's treatment of him, then yes. But give up the brother who was her main source of affection, possibly forever, and face a future of becoming Dad's favourite punishment target, when there's still a chance that if Fritz holds out some years more, FW dies and Fritz becomes King? Not sure.
Re: why Katte remained in Berlin, Fontane is with you, as you might recall. He thinks Katte remained because of his knightly instincts and because he was just too busy to make a getaway in time.
Katte boasting of Fritz' favor: also ties with the part in his letter to his father about having had ambitions etc. Not to say this is what it was about for him with Fritz, but I doubt he was immune to the fact that this was the future King when they first became friends.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
Yeah, that's also why I'm not sure, and why I am sure she was a very reluctant conspirator. (I think I've said this before: his willingness to leave and her reluctance to let him go, I think *must* have fed into some kind of repressed and even subconscious mutual resentment after the fact, no matter how much they understood the other's motives.)
But as for dying: she does record that scene where Fritz tells her FW was trying to strangle him with a cord and had to be pried off him by (invisible and very brave) servants). So maybe?
Re: why Katte remained in Berlin, Fontane is with you, as you might recall. He thinks Katte remained because of his knightly instincts and because he was just too busy to make a getaway in time.
I absolutely remember. :) He was a victim of his knightly disposition. Fontane also thinks Mitchell's "on account of some girl he was fond of" can't be right, because it hasn't occurred to Fontane that "some girl" might be Wilhelmine. ;)
Katte boasting of Fritz' favor: also ties with the part in his letter to his father about having had ambitions etc.
Yep, I always connect those two things too. And while those letters can't be trusted, I have always believed, like you, that he was in no way immune to Fritz being the Crown Prince. Plus that other letter (the Puncta one, written by Müller), where Katte says Fritz had promised him great things someday when he was king (and thus Katte's death shows the vanity of human plans, etc., etc.).
Now, that letter *really* can't be trusted, but given who Katte's father and grandfather were, I imagine he would expect some kind of preferment as a matter of course, and that's not mutually exclusive with him having real feelings for Fritz. (Which I'm sure he did: the fact that he was repeatedly asking to talk to Fritz at Küstrin and was reassuring him that he didn't blame him tells me that, motives for religion and pleasing Dad and going to a "good death" aside, he actually cared about Fritz's feelings after his death.)
Btw, now that I've seen the exchanges between Fritz and AW in the 1730s, I'm more willing to believe in the existence of that letter that Peter Keith is supposed to have carried with him for 10 years, saying that Fritz will always be grateful and stating or implying that there will be rewards someday.
Re: Wilhelmine's Memoirs
Now, that letter *really* can't be trusted, but given who Katte's father and grandfather were, I imagine he would expect some kind of preferment as a matter of course, and that's not mutually exclusive with him having real feelings for Fritz.
Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty common thing with humans. It's hard or impossible to turn off what you know of someone's external situation, but you can fall in love with someone at the same time as you are perfectly aware that person is the Crown Prince and will someday be King.
Librarian update
Fanworks are still at the top, but if we accumulate enough of them, they'll get a designated folder too. :)
2)
his trashy tell all memoirs. Which, [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard, yes, I'd like to have in the library. I mean, sadly due to grandson censorship they're missing the vital years of 1730 to 1732, and thus can't tell us among other things how Uncle George first reacted when he heard what went down in Prussia with FW and Fritz, but maybe there are other useful quotes in them, and they do sound very entertaining.
Bowdlerized memoirs in the library, with obligatory 19th century editorial disclaimer that it was perfectly acceptable to be coarse then, so much so that he wishes he could have bowdlerized *more*, but the memoirs wouldn't make sense with entire passages suppressed, so he contented himself with some lacunae and rewriting. Sigh. Someone bring him his smelling salts.
If I find a more complete copy, I'll let you know, but for now, this is what we have. There appears to be a more modern (but still 1960s) edition, that's severely abridged down to less than 300 pages.
3) Lady Hervey's letters are also in the library, in the correspondence folder.
Also, any time you want anything, whether it be Lord Hervey's memoirs or an English or German translation of Voltaire on short notice, let me know, and I'll see what I can do! It's not like I hesitate to ask you to read things for us. ;)
4) And because I couldn't resist, also the memoirs of Princess Dashkova. We haven't talked about her, but she was Catherine's BFF, helped put her on the throne, headed the Russian academy of sciences, and seems generally cool. And in keeping with our Enlightenment theme!
Re: Librarian update
1) As you've no doubt seen, I'm getting our fic endeavors transferred over to
I haven't tagged for characters yet, because this is tedious enough already. I'm sure they'll get tagged someday, either by me, or...I think you can tag posts other people have made in the community, even if you can't edit them, so if anyone wanted to help out, I wouldn't say no. ;)
The other two are mostly plot hashing out, so if you've got plans for these, maybe we don't need to post them separately? I'll let you decide.
2) The Google doc is being drafted already and will be shared shortly, this weekend if I don't have time to finish this week. Just in time for nominations!
Re: Librarian update
Go ahead. If I manage to turn any of them into a proper tale, it won't harm there being an outline at our community, and if someone else should feel inspired, I'll be as delighted as I was when the three of us managed to come up with the Christmas of '32 simultanously! And yes, group them thematically, i.e. the Rococo babysitting can go together in both versions, etc.. ;)
Re: Librarian update
Finishing and sharing the Google doc with prompts is next on my todo list.
Re: Librarian update
A list of prompts we've come up with is at the top. Feel free to add whatever I've missed.
Below that are our individual lists of favorite prompts we'd be happy to receive as gifts, in alphabetical order by name: cahn, mildred, selena. As you can see, I've started with my top 50, but don't be surprised if I think of more. :P
The entries in the table of contents are clickable and linkable: you can navigate to yours, and you can link to it if you want to point someone else to it.
Add yours!
ETA: Oh, mine is in no particular order. I'd be happy to get any all of them.
Re: Librarian update
If so, I can make the paragraphs shorter with maybe half an hour of not-especially-tedious work, and I'm happy to do it if it helps your German practice. If not, I'll just translate it as-is, and I won't bother uploading the interleaved file (though I will generate one just in case you want it someday--the algorithm already generates it, so no extra work, yay automation).
* With the help of some Google-fu, Lady Mary's complete letters can be acquired at the present time for $67, including shipping: $54 for volumes 1 and 2, sold as a set, and $13 for volume 3. For 3 thick volumes, that's not a bad deal.
We could cross-reference with Wilhelmine's Italy travels and figure out when and where they could have met, and what they were up to around that time!
I'm up for contributing $40 and doing the scanning and uploading, if either of you are in a position to contribute the remaining $27, either individually or in combination. Otherwise, we can wait for
Booooooooks. :D
Re: Librarian update
Interleaved would be great because I think it really does help even when I just look at it sporadically, although I am temporarily abandoning attempts to even quasi-seriously try to read anything right now and just doubling down on Duolingo, as I'm realizing I need a baseline syntax and vocab that I don't have yet. (I am, however, reading Le Petit Prince very slowly in French, but that's another story.)
I can contribute the remaining $27, though I will reserve the right to ask for a translation favor in return :) (I don't have one right now, but I'm sure I will at some point :P )
Re: Librarian update
Yay! Tbh, I might not be up for detailed comments either, especially as my reading speeds up and Yuletide starts to happen.
Would shorter paragraphs help? I won't count that as your translation favor, or only a small percentage of it. ;)
I can contribute the remaining $27, though I will reserve the right to ask for a translation favor in return :) (I don't have one right now, but I'm sure I will at some point :P )
Also yay! Translation favors for books is the best barter system. :D ETA: Plus of course the reading and summarizing of said books!
Daughter of ETA: Books have been ordered!
Re: Librarian update
I'll try to contribute tonight; if I don't, then send me a reminder, the organizational parts of my brain have been mush lately :)
Re: Librarian update
This all sounds great and makes perfect sense. I'm happy that you're studying German!
Random insertion of paragraph breaks has concluded; tomorrow, I'll run the file through the translator and upload the results to the library.
Tomorrow I'm also going to finish the last few pages of volume 1 of Wilhelmine's memoirs: go me! I'm 10 pages from the end and going to try to do a few more before bed.
(I am, however, reading Le Petit Prince very slowly in French, but that's another story.)
Zomg. I'm going to have to work hard to catch up when the time comes!
Re: Librarian update
Re: Librarian update
A word: *is German*
Me: I know that's a compliment. Which compliment, I forget, but that's good enough. Moving on!
That kind of plowing ahead when it's "good enough" is why my German is progressing so quickly: I trust that my future self will know the things my present self doesn't, and so far that's working out as planned. But it does mean things like tone are a little harder to pick up on at this stage.
Also, the tone of the English translation is partly masked by the translator's choice to render it in English that is not only a hundred years old now, but was an artificially lofty, learned style even then: the English of a great many Classical translations that were trying to be as stilted as possible (some much worse than the Wilhelmine edition I'm using) and that the modern-day Classics student gets stuck with, because they're public domain and easily accessible.
"Contributed to render me acquainted with the usages of society" is not how anyone talks now, not even my dissertation advisor, who has the most Latinate English of anyone I've ever known, and if you read other stuff from a hundred years ago, you can tell the man on the street wasn't talking like that back then, either. You had to learn to write like that.
So unfortunately I have to make a conscious effort to see past it and perceive a tone other than "sounds really stilted to the modern ear."
I can tell you the sarcasm comes through in both translations! Yesterday I got to the Wusterhausen part, and it was full of complimentary words, immediately after a description of just how terrible it was. "Such was the delightful place we were staying at. This is what the glamorous front hall looked like." That sort of thing. :D
Re: Librarian update
Zomg. I'm going to have to work hard to catch up when the time comes!
This totally made me laugh, because reading Le Petit Prince is actually a reaction to knowing I'm going to have to work to catch up with you when you start French :P I figure if I read one page a day, that in fifty days... I'll be approximating what you do in one day :PP
(My French is solid enough, and Prince has simple enough grammar and vocabulary, that even when I was in school I would have been able to read it -- I think it is pretty standard reading curriculum for high school French, and I would have read it in high school had I not moved schools at that point. It's a step down from e.g. Voigt, although I should possibly get a Voigt in French to compare.)
Re: Librarian update
Heee. Well, I do have a lot of *time* on my hands, and I'm more committed to making this happen now, it's true. :)
I just know there's a good chance I'll never be this motivated to study French or German again, and if I get my reading skills to a reasonable place now, then I can hopefully *maintain* them such that I can use them for other things. Like especially in Classics, there's a bunch of stuff I want to read in German, but not badly enough to study German for. But with reading group, and gossip, and so forth, now's the time!
I think it is pretty standard reading curriculum for high school French
So I gather, but as you know, I went to an unacademic high school, and after I took all the French that was offered, we still weren't reading anything. We were still just doing textbook exercises consisting of individual sentences, Duolingo-style.
We did The Little Prince in eleventh-grade *English*. Not that we weren't also doing more complicated English prose, but we certainly were not in a position to read that in French. To the extent that I can make heads or tails of French for Frederician purposes, it's because I'm generally good at languages and picked some things up here and there since then, not because my high school French got me up to being able to read entire paragraphs. (Because why send your intellectually talented, ambitious, and frustrated daughter to decent schools, when you could tell her the quality of her education doesn't matter and send her to some of the lowest-ranked ones in two of the lowest-ranked states for education in the US. Though at least no one beat me for studying Latin! Poor Fritz.)
But now I have a method! And I have plans! But before then, I have a long reading list for German. Plus hopefully Yuletide. So you should have more than 50 days to practice. :)
Actually, what with Yuletide, I might actually not start French until next year. We'll see. I did tell Royal Patron we're not starting Greek as soon as I'd originally projected, what with me getting serious about German, then RMSE happening, possibly Yuletide, and hopefully French, lol.
Language classes
*blinks* Well, I'm glad you appended that note about doing more complicated English prose, because... what?? But still.
We were still just doing textbook exercises consisting of individual sentences, Duolingo-style.
Yeah, that's not right. My first high school had surprisingly good French, which meant that the second year when we walked in the teacher started talking to us in French and expecting us to respond in same, which we were all very upset by :) (But it turns out that this kind of on-the-fly practice is a really great way to force language learning!) My second high school had great everything except my history teacher, who was terrible (although there is evidence she used to be less bad and was going through some personal problems that year), and the French teacher wasn't nearly as good as my old one. We didn't read books in my third-year class (which first!French teacher would have made us do) but we did read paragraphs!
Now, what your class reminds me of is my Spanish class (at first high school). I don't think I have mentioned before that I took a year of Spanish, which is because I learned and retain next to zero from that class. My parents really wanted me to take Spanish, as it's such a useful language to know in the US, and as an adult living in SoCal I don't disagree with their assessment -- it would certainly be a practical language to know. (Though French was definitely the right choice in terms of life happiness -- useful in a wide range of literary, historical, and musical contexts! :D )
We spent every class, every day, doing the exercises from the book (which are much more repetitive than Duolingo) -- you know, I have this vague memory that we didn't even do them ourselves; I think the teacher told us the answer and we wrote it down -- and then we would be tested on exactly those exercises. This meant that it was much easier to memorize the exercises that one would be tested on than it was to actually learn the language. So I'd dutifully memorize the exercises, and then promptly forget them, and so I know no Spanish. (Well, I mean, living in SoCal, and having done French and Italian, I know enough to pick out words and such, but I can't understand or read as much as I could after even a semester of, say, Italian.)
Re: Librarian update
So, we have volumes 1-2 (not yet digitized), which cover the period up to 1751. Which is nice and all, but doesn't cover the period of Wilhelmine's visit!
I will keep my eye out for v. 3, but right now, the cheapest I can find it is $55, which, no.
Oh,
[ETA: I'm an idiot. You gave me $27, which means you have $22 in translation favors after subtracting the $5 refund.]
Also, I can't believe I'd forgotten this, but I did actually work as a librarian's assistant in my high school library (for course credit, not for money). I helped with shelving, cataloguing (you won't be surprised I helped us go digital with our card catalogue back in 2000), and acquisition (you won't be surprised this was my favorite part :P). I wouldn't do it for a career as long as I had better options, but it's definitely up my alley as a hobby!
no subject
I'm happy for you to put snippets in Rheinsberg -- and yes, separate posts with tag sounds like a good idea :)
Hervey's Memoirs: The Prussia Connection
So, the FW passages:
To oppose the execution then of the Vienna Treaty made between the Emperor and Spain, France and England formed the Hanover Treaty, September 3, 1727, when the late King (i.e. G1) was at Hanover. As soon as this treaty was concluded, to which England, France, and Prussia were the original contracting parties, copies of it were sent to all the Courts and little States in Europe ; and whilst the Emperor and Spain were soliciting, on one hand, for accessions to their Treaty of Vienna, England and France were, on the other, strengthening, by as many powers as they could list, the alliance of Hanover.
The defection of the King of Prussia from the latter was a sudden turn, and proceeded partly from a fear of his superior, the Emperor, and partly from a sullen, envious hatred he bore to his father-in-law, the King of England, who, from the time of his advancement to that crown, sank in his son-in-law's favour, just in the same proportion as he rose above him in grandeur. This was a great loss to the allies of Hanover, the King of Prussia having a standing force of 70,000 men. The forces of Spain were about 60,000, besides their naval power ; and the army of the Emperor in all, after the new levies, about 200,000. Muscovy was the only considerable power, besides Prussia, that acceded to the Treaty of Vienna ; for whilst the Czarina alone obliged herself, in case of a rupture, to furnish 30,000 men, the Electors of Bavaria, Cologne, and Treves, besides several other little German Princes that his Imperial Majesty had bullied, cajoled, or bought into his party, could muster no more than 27,000.
While Prince of Wales, future G2 had remained in Britain, but once he was G2, he irritated his English subjects by spending part of his time in Hannover, like his father had done:
Whilst the King was at Hanover he had several little German disputes with his brother of Prussia, the particulars of which being about a few cart-loads of hay, a mill, and some soldiers improperly enlisted by the King of Prussia in the Hanoverian state, I do not think them worthy of being considered in detail ; and shall say nothing further about these squabbles than that, first or last, both of them contrived to be in the wrong. And as these two princes had some similar impracticabilities in their temper, so they were too much alike ever to agree, and from this time forward hated one another with equal imprudence, inveteracy, and openness.
It was reported, and I believe not without foundation, that our Monarch on this occasion sent or would have sent a challenge of single combat to his Prussian Majesty; but whether it was carried and rejected, or whether the prayers and remonstrances of Lord Townshend prevented the gauntlet being actually thrown down, is a point which to me at least has never been cleared.
There was another subject of dispute between the Kings of England and Prussia, which I forgot to enumerate, though it was the only one really of consequence, and that was with regard to the affairs of Mecklenburg. The short statement of their differences on this article was, whether the Prussian or Hanoverian troops (both ordered into Mecklenburg by a decree of the Aulic Council) should have the greatest share (under the pretence of keeping peace) in plundering the people and completing the ruin of that miserable duchy, already reduced to such a state of calamity by the tyrannical conduct of their most abominable, deposed, or rather suspended duke.
It's time for (another) War of the Polish Succession. As a reminder: France backs Louis XV's father-in-law, Stanilaus Lescyinski; Mt's Dad the Emperor backs August the Strong's son, future August III. FW is technically obliged to back both in his dual capacity of Elector of Brandenburg and King of Prussia. Then there's the battle of Philippsburg where no one does much but where Fritz, FW and old Prince Eugene are on one side and the Duc de Richelieu (and Voltaire as a tourist) on the other. G2 wants to join the war effort. His PM, Robert Walpole, and Hervey really really want Britain to stay out of hit.
During these transactions abroad, the King was in the utmost anxiety at home. The battles of Bitonto and Parma, the surrender of Philipsburg, and the bad situation of the Emperor's affairs in every quarter, gave his Majesty the utmost solicitude to exert himself in the defence of the House of Austria, and to put some stop to the rapid triumphs of the House of Bourbon.
For though the King was ready to allow all the personal faults of the Emperor, and was not without resentment for the treatment he himself had met with from the Court of Vienna, yet his hatred to the French was so strong, and his leaning to an Imperial cause so prevalent, that he could not help wishing to distress the one and support the other, in spite of all inferior, collateral, or personal considerations.
In all occurrences he could not help remembering that, as Elector of Hanover, he was a part of the Empire, and the Emperor at the head of it ; and these prejudices, operating in every consideration where his interest as King of England ought only to have been weighed, gave his Minister, who consulted only the interest of England, perpetual difficulties to surmount, whenever he was persuading his Majesty to adhere solely to that.
The King's love for armies, his contempt for civil affairs, and the great capacity he thought he possessed for military exploits, inclined him still with greater violence to be meddling, and warped him yet more to the side of war. He used almost daily and hourly, during the beginning of this summer, to be telling Sir Robert Walpole with what eagerness he glowed to pull the laurels from the brows of the French generals, to bind his own temples ; that it was with the sword alone he desired to keep the balance of Europe •, that war and action were his sole pleasures ; that age was coming fast upon him ; and that, if he lost the opportunity of this bustle, no other occasion possibly might offer in which he should be able to distinguish himself, or gather those glories which were now ready at his hand. He could not bear, he said, the thought of growing old in peace, and rusting in the cabinet, whilst other princes were busied in war and shining in the field; but what provoked him most of all, he confessed, was to reflect that, whilst he was only busied in treaties, letters, and despatches, his booby brother, the brutal and cowardly King of Prussia, should pass his time in camps, and in the midst of arms, neither desirous of the glory nor fit for the employment ; whilst he, who coveted the one and was trained for the other, was, for cold prudential reasons, debarred the pleasure of indulging his inclination, and deprived of the advantage of showing his abilities.
See what I mean about deja vu?
But the circumstance that gave Sir Robert Walpole the most trouble of all was that with regard to the war he found the Queen as unmanageable and opinionated as the King. There are local prejudices in all people's composition, imbibed from the place of their birth, the seat of their education, and the residence of their youth, that are hardly ever quite eradicated, and operate much stronger than those who are influenced by them are apt to imagine ; and the Queen, with all her good
sense, was actuated by these prejudices in a degree nothing short of that in which they biased the King.
Wherever the interest of Germany and the honour of the Empire were concerned, her thoughts and reasonings were often as German and Imperial as if England had been out of the question ; and there were few inconveniences and dangers to which she would not have exposed this country rather than give occasion to its being said that the Empire suffered affronts unretorted, and the House of Austria injuries unrevenged, whilst she, a German by birth, sat upon this throne an idle spectatress, able to assist and not willing to interpose.
More about Queen Caroline elsewhere. But Hervey's general attitude with its "why are they so German?" ness was widely shared among the British politicians and makes me think Heinrich wasn't wrong when in his RPG with AW when assuming Britain would not have been willing to go to total war for Hannover. Speaking of the family seat, G2 making another trip there is the occason of the last Prussia mention in volume 1, as his PM tries to argue him into not going. It's the mid 1730s:
Neither would it have been a very agreeable incident for the King of Great Britain, after a month's residence at Hanover, to be running back again through Westphalia to England with seventy thousand Prussians at his heels ; and yet, considering
the terms he and the King of Prussia were upon at present, this might easily have happened, and was suggested by Sir Robert Walpole to deter his Majesty from this expedition ; but to their remonstrances his Majesty always answered, "Pooh!" and "Stuff!" or, " You think to get the better of me, but you shall not ;" and, in short, plainly showed that all efforts to divert him from this expedition would be fruitless.
You know what's nearly totally missing (unless it was in the censored by grandson passages)? The endless marriage negotiatioins for Fritz and Wilhelmine. There's one single aside about some there being some idea to marry Fritz of Wales to "a daughter of Prussia", and that's it. Otherwise, the entire rigmorale is of zero interest to Hervey.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: The Prussia Connection
have as an exbe on the bad side of! Also, lol for those interminable marriage negotiations being limited to a single small bit :)Re: Hervey's Memoirs: The Prussia Connection
LOLOL that's SO GREAT. Unforgiveablest of beings indeed!
I needed that for my probably never going to be written AU where Fritz makes it to England. I already had him sighing about having to take up hunting as a political concession; now I'm imagining listening to lectures from G2 on how the sword is the only way for a prince to win glory.
makes me think Heinrich wasn't wrong when in his RPG with AW when assuming Britain would not have been willing to go to total war for Hannover
Yep, makes sense.
It was reported, and I believe not without foundation, that our Monarch on this occasion sent or would have sent a challenge of single combat to his Prussian Majesty;
What. G2, didn't you already lose the single combat with FW when you were twice his size? I don't care how gouty he is, I'd watch out. He's in practice, if nothing else!
but whether it was carried and rejected, or whether the prayers and remonstrances of Lord Townshend prevented the gauntlet being actually thrown down, is a point which to me at least has never been cleared.
Um.
FW to SD: I already kicked your brother's sorry ass once; now he wants a piece of me again? Bring it on!
So I'm going to go with "calmer heads prevailed in England."
he irritated his English subjects by spending part of his time in Hannover, like his father had done:
I just today got to the part in Wilhelmine's memoirs where she claims that the following happened.
The English want Fritz of Wales in England, not Hanover. (The story checks out so far.) G2 wants him in Hanover, because a party will form around him in England if he's there. So they decide that FoW should sneak off to Berlin, marry Wilhelmine, and then G2 will have an excuse Parliament can't argue with for keeping him on the Continent. Only SD gives the game away by being indiscreet, the English ministers find out, and the plot falls through.
I gather Hervey's memoirs don't support this, since he doesn't get into the fire swamp that is the double marriage intrigues, but I'm wondering if there's any evidence for this outside Wilhelmine's memoirs.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: The Prussia Connection
FW would have taken him up on the challenge, are you with me on this?
You have my sword. He so would have, even if he'd been in one of his wheelchair-bound phases. What choice of weapons, though? Or are they going to do a wrestling and boxing combination again?
I'm also with you in that G2 better watch out. FW has that killer instinct. Now the next question is: whom would SD and Caroline be rooting for, in their heart of hearts? Wait, scratch that. Even if Caroline is exhausted by all the G2 wrangling she has to do, she gets her power from him, and if he dies or is incapacitated, her least favourite kid gets on the throne. Meanwhile, if FW gets killed or incapacitated, Fritz becomes King.
Otoh: if there's a non lethal ending with both parties alive and well, just one of them terribly embarassed and humiliated, then SD is rooting for FW all the way, and Caroline for G2. They have to live with them if they lose, after all.
The "Fritz of Wales sneaks of to Berlin" plan sounds vaguely familiar, and not just from Wilhelmine's memoirs. Halsband might have mentioned it. Not sure, though.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: The Prussia Connection
With you on SD and Caroline.
What choice of weapons, though? Or are they going to do a wrestling and boxing combination again?
Given what happened when Hervey fought a duel and *didn't* use pistols, and given the shade G2 is throwing at FW's courage, probably pistols?
But for maximum crackfic hilarity, wrestling and boxing combination, totally.
Fritz and G2 can bond over fox-hunting, though.
True, although I recall from your first write-up that G2 was on board with hunting game that gives you some kind of challenge? And it was primarily Amelia I was thinking of: riding and hunting were her big passions, and Fritz needs to stay on her good side at least a little during the big England/Hannover (Ha! See, I'm using the German spelling already :P) conflict with Prussia, so he grits his teeth and hunts a little. 1733-1740 shows us what Fritz is capable of when he stands to get something out of it.
I found the original passage in Hervey's memoirs where he tells that story (of G2 going "Fox hunting WTF, English people?), and it's as great as Horowitz' paraphrase. Will quote at length when I find the time.
Found it!
When the Duke of Grafton notified his design to go into the country, the King told him it was a pretty occupation for a man of quality, and at his age, to be spending all his time in tormenting a poor fox, that was generally a much better beast than any of those that pursued him; for the fox hurts no other animal but for his subsistence, whilst those brutes who hurt him did it only for the pleasure they took in hurting. The Duke of Grafton said he did it for his health. The King asked him why he could not as well walk or ride post for his health ; and said, if there was any pleasure in the chase, he was sure the Duke of Grafton could know nothing of it; "for," added his Majesty, "with your great corps of twenty stone weight, no horse, I am sure, can carry you within hearing, much less within sight, of your hounds." This last dialogue I was present at.
Hervey's Memoirs: Meet the (Royal) Family
For my own part, I have the conduct of princes in so little veneration, that I believe they act yet oftener without design than other people, and are insensibly drawn into both good and bad situations without knowing how they came there. (...) I think most of these political contenders for profit and power are, like Catiline and Caesar, actuated by the same principles of ambition and interest, and that as their success determines their characters, so accident determines their success. Had Csesar fallen in the plains of Pharsalia, like Catiline in those of Pistoia, they had both been remembered in the same manner; the different fortune of those battles is what alone constitutes the different characters of these two men, and makes the one always mentioned as the first and the other as the last of mankind.
Hervey on the coronation of G2 and Queen Caroline:
In October the ceremony of the Coronation was performed with all the pomp and magnificence that could be contrived ; the present King differing so much from the last, that all the pageantry and splendour, badges and trappings of royalty, were as pleasing to the son as they were irksome to the father. The dress of the Queen on this occasion was as fine as the accumulated riches of the City and suburbs could make it ; for besides her own jewels (which were a great number and very valuable) she had on her head and on her shoulders all the pearls she could borrow of the ladies of quality at one end of the town, and on her petticoat all the diamonds she could hire of the Jews and jewellers at the other; so that the appearance and the truth of her finery was a mixture of magnificence and meanness not unlike the eclat of royalty in many other particulars when it comes to be nicely examined and its sources traced to what money hires or flattery lends.
You may gather from this that contrary to what Halsband told me in his biography, Hervey writes critical stuff about Queen Caroline as well as about the rest of the family. This upsets Croker in the introduction, not least because Hervey also insists he loved the Queen and she loved him. Though our Victorian editor is most upset about what Hervey presumably didn't mean critically at all, to wit, Caroline a) despising her oldest son, and b) having no problem with her husband's mistresses. Speaking of whom, remember Lady Suffolk, who started out as Mrs. Howard and whom G2 took as an English mistress when he was still Prince of Wales when his Dad G1 upset people by bring a German mistress along? Whom G2 visited strictly by the hour and was more dutiful than affectionate towards as opposed to his wife? This is how Hervey introduces her:
She was civil to everybody, friendly to many, and unjust to none : in short, she had a good head and a good heart, but had to do with a man who was incapable of tasting the one or valuing the other.
Meanwhile, Queen Caroline:
Her predominant passion was pride, and the darling pleasure of her soul was power; but she was forced to gratify the one and gain the other, as some people do health, by a strict and painful regime, which few besides herself could have had patience to support, or resolution to adhere to. She was at least seven or eight hours tute-a-tcte with the King every day, during which time she was generally saying what she did not think, assenting to what she did not believe, and praising what she did not approve ; for they were seldom of the same opinion, and he too fond of his own for her ever at first to dare to controvert it (" consilii quamvis egregii quod ipse non afferret, inimicus :"— " An enemy to any counsel, however excellent, which he himself had not suggested." — Tacitus) ;'' she used to give him her opinion as jugglers do a card, by changing it imperceptibly, and making him believe he held the same with that he first pitched upon. But that which made these tete-a-tetes seem heaviest was that he neither liked reading nor being read to (unless it was to sleep) : she was forced, like a spider, to spin out of her own bowels all the conversation with which the fly was taken. However, to all this she submitted for the sake of power, and for the reputation of having it ; for the vanity of being thought to possess what she desired was equal to the pleasure of the possession itself. But, either for the appearance or the reality, she knew it was absolutely necessary to have interest in her husband, as she was sensible that interest was the measure by which people would always judge of her power. Her every thought, word, and act therefore tended and was calculated to preserve her influence there ; to him she sacrificed her time, for him she mortified her inclination ; she looked, spake, and breathed but for him, like a weathercock to every capricious blast of his uncertain temper, and governed him (if such influence so gained can bear the name of government) by being as great a slave to him thus ruled, as any other wife could be to a man who ruled her. For all the tedious hours she spent then in watching him whilst he slept, or the heavier task of entertaining him whilst he was awake, her single consolation was in reflecting she had power, and that people in coffeehouses and ruelles were saying she governed this country, without knowing how dear the government of it cost her.
This was not how G2 saw it, of course:
The King himself was so little sensible of this being his case, that one day enumerating the people who had governed this country in other reigns, he said Charles I. was governed by his wife ; Charles II. by his mistresses ; King James by his priests ; King William by his men—and Queen Anne by her women—favourites. His father, he added, had been by anybody that could get at him. And at the end of this compendious history of our great and wise monarchs, with a significant, satisfied, triumphant air, he turned about, smiling, to one of his auditors, and asked him—"And who do they say governs now?"
Whether this is a true or a false story of the King, I know not, but it was currently reported and generally believed. The following verses will serve for a specimen of the strain in which the libels, satires, and lampoons of these days were omposed :
—
" You may strut, dapper George, but 't will all be in vain ;
We know 'tis Queen Caroline, not you, that reign—
You govern no more than Don Philip of Spain.
Then if you would have us fall down and adore you,
Lock up your fat spouse, as your dad did before you." '
And as for that love rat, Fritz of Wales:
The Prince's character at his first coming over, though little more respectable, seemed much more amiable than, upon his opening himself further and being better known, it turned out to be ; for though there appeared nothing in him to be admired, yet there seemed nothing in him to be hated—neither anything great nor anything vicious ; his behaviour was something that gained one's good wishes, though it gave one no esteem for him ; for his best qualities, whilst they prepossessed one the most in his favour, always gave one a degree of contempt for him at the same time ; his carriage, whilst it seemed engaging to those who did not examine it, appearing mean to those who did : for though his manners had the show of benevolence from a good deal of natural or habitual civility, yet his cajoling everybody, and almost in an equal degree, made those things which might have been thought favours, if more judiciously or sparingly bestowed, lose all their weight. He carried this affectation of general benevolence so far that he often condescended below the character of a Prince; and as people attributed this familiarity to popular, and not particular motives, so it only lessened their respect without increasing their good will, and instead of giving them good impressions of his humanity, only gave them ill ones of his sincerity. He was indeed as false as his capacity would allow him to be, and was more capable in that walk than in any other, never having the least hesitation, from principle or fear of future detection, in telling any lie that served his present purpose. He had a much weaker understanding, and, if possible, a more obstinate temper, than his father ; that is, more tenacious of opinions he had once formed, though less capable of ever forming right ones.
Had he had one grain of merit at the bottom of his heart, one should have had compassion for him in the situation to which his miserable poor head soon reduced him ; for his case, in short, was this :—he had a father that abhorred him, a mother that despised him, sisters that betrayed him, a brother set up against him, and a set of servants that neglected him, and were neither of use, nor capable of being of use to him, nor desirous of being so.
There, there, Hervey. Celebrity break-ups are the worst, we know. Have a glass with Voltaire.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Meet the (Royal) Family
with two sets of fake memoirs)At least from Hervey's description, Caroline sounds a lot more savvy than SD. Of course, G2 isn't exactly FW, either.
And as for that love rat, Fritz of Wales:
I must say I love the soubriquet "love rat" and will have to find more opportunities to use it :D
But anyway, lol forever to that description! Is there a bit anywhere later on describing their soulful, tempestuous, star-crossed reunion? :D
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Meet the (Royal) Family
Well, apparently it was like Fritz/Voltaire in some ways, not in others:
En route back from Italy, Hervey renews his friendship with Voltaire (whom he'd met earlier when Voltaire had been in England); this includes showing Voltaire his poetry and asking his opinion of it. (I sense a theme.)
Hervey's friendship for Voltaire the man did not prevent him from criticizing Voltaire the writer. When he read the tragedy Zaire (early in 1733) and sent a copy to Henry Fox , he was certain that like himself Fox would "have some Compassion for a silly Christian [heroine) as well as the greatest regard, Esteem , & Affection for a noble, good, tender & charming Mahometan' who through a tragic misunderstanding kills her. He was irritated , though, by Voltaire's dedication of the play to Edward Falkener, English merchant. In France it was regarded as scandalous because it was addressed not only to a commoner but to a foreign one at that . Hervey told Henry Fox that he thought it "bad, false, & impertinent ... by a superficial Frenchman to an Englishman , & the Dedicator pretends to be better acquainted with our Country, our Manners, our Laws, & even our Language than the Dedicatee'.
What could have aroused such a violent opinion ? In the dedicatory epistle , after praising the high rank and regard the mercantile class enjoyed in England, Voltaire continues : 'I know very well that this profession is despised by our petits-maîtres ; but you also know that our petits -maîtres and yours are the most ridiculous species that proudly crawl on the face of the earth '. This , rather than the general remarks about French and English theatre, could have been offensive to one who was certainly closer to being a petit-maître than a man of commerce.
Fritz: You've got it backwards, Hervey. Voltaire is the literal worst, the scum of humanity, but his writing! *sparkly hearts*
I also really enjoyed "love rat," that was awesome. Had never heard it, but Google tells me it's a thing.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Meet the (Royal) Family
Although I have to say that now having read more of
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Meet the (Royal) Family
Oh, I'm used to your German spellings. So used to them that I've involuntarily started adopting some of them, like Rokoko! If I haven't started using "Hannover" too yet, I will soon enough, between you and Wilhelmine's memoirs. ;)
gain the other, as some people do health, by a strict and painful regime, which few besides herself could have had patience to support, or resolution to adhere to. She was at least seven or eight hours tute-a-tcte with the King every day, during which time she was generally saying what she did not think, assenting to what she did not believe, and praising what she did not approve ; for they were seldom of the same opinion, and he too fond of his own for her ever at first to dare to controvert it (" consilii quamvis egregii quod ipse non afferret, inimicus :"— " An enemy to any counsel, however excellent, which he himself had not suggested." — Tacitus) ;'' she used to give him her opinion as jugglers do a card, by changing it imperceptibly, and making him believe he held the same with that he first pitched upon.
Wow, this is a great description. I can see why his memoirs are considered so readable.
There, there, Hervey. Celebrity break-ups are the worst, we know. Have a glass with Voltaire.
Haha.
Thank you for the write-up! I'm a little short on time and brain for comments, but I appreciated it as always. I'm constantly amazed at the free education in this salon!
Hervey's Memoirs: The Phantom of the Opera
Another judicious subject of his enmity was her supporting Handel, a German musician and composer (who had been her singing master, and was now undertaker of one of the operas), against several of the nobility who had a pique with Handel, and had set up another person to ruin him ; or, to speak more properly and exactly, the Prince, in the beginning of his enmity to his sister, set himself at the head of the other opera to irritate her, whose pride and passions were as strong as her brother's (although his understanding was so much weaker), and could brook contradiction, where she dared to resent it, as little as her father. What I have related may seem a trifle ; but though the cause was indeed such, the effects of it were no trifles. The King and Queen were as much in earnest upon this subject as their son and daughter, though they had the prudence to disguise it, or to endeavour to disguise it, a little more. They were both Handelists, and sat freezing constantly at his empty Haymarket Opera, whilst the Prince with all the chief of the nobility went as constantly to that of Lincoln's Inn Fields. The affair grew as serious as that of the Greens and the Blues under Justinian at Constantinople; an anti-Handelist was looked upon as an anticourtier ; and voting against the Court in Parliament was hardly a less remissible or more venial sin than speaking against Handel or going to the Lincoln's Inn Fields Opera. The Princess Royal said she expected in a little while to see half the House of Lords playing in the orchestra in their robes and coronets ; and the King—though he declared he took no other part in this affair than subscribing lOOO pound. a-year to Handel—often added at the same time that " he did not think setting oneself at the head of a faction of fiddlers a very honourable occupation for people of quality ; or the ruin of one poor fellow [Handel] so generous or so good-natured a scheme as to do much honour to the undertakers, whether they succeeded or not ; but the better they succeeded in it, the more he thought they would have reason to be ashamed of it." The Princess Royal quarrelled with the Lord Chamberlain for affecting his usual neutrality on this occasion, and spoke of Lord Delaware, who was one of the chief managers against Handel, with as much spleen as if he had been at the head of the Dutch faction who opposed the making her husband Stadtholder.'
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: The Phantom of the Opera
I like Handel a lot (though not enough to get in battles over him, lol) so I am a little more on the Princess' side, I suppose, but. Man, Hervey definitely has a way with words, anyway.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: The Phantom of the Opera
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: The Phantom of the Opera
But it sounds like his father liked music (that is to say, it wasn't a FW-like disapproval of high-falutin' music in general)? Then was it just the cello he didn't like? Stringed instruments?
Hervey's Memoirs: Those Germans!
Okay, onwards: G2 keeps irritating his English subjects with visiting Hannover, remember. On one such visit, his English mistress, Lady Sussex, gets married again despite being in her 40s. G2 hears about it from Caroline via letter, drags out his time in Hannover, and comes back with a German (!) mistress, Madame Waldmoden, the ultimate insult. This causes Lord Hervey to muse thusly:
Whilst the late King lived, everybody imagined this Prince loved England and hated Germany ; but from the time of his first journey, after he was King, to Hanover, people began to find, if they had not been deceived in their former opinion, at least they would be so in their xpectations; and that his thoughts, whatever they might have been, were no longer turned either with contempt or dislike to his Electoral dominions.
But after this last journey Hanover had so completed the conquest of his affections, that there was nothing English ever commended in his presence that he did not always show, or pretend to show, was surpassed by something of the same kind in Germany. No English or even French cook could dress a dinner; no English confectioner set out a dessert ; no English player could act ; no English coachman could drive, or
English jockey ride; nor were any English horses fit to be drove or fit to be ridden; no Englishman knew how to come into a room, nor any Englishwoman how to dress herself; nor were there any diversions in England, public or private ; nor any man or woman in England whose conversation was to be borne—the one, as he said, talking of nothing but their dull politics, and the others of nothing but their ugly clothes. Whereas at Hanover all these things were in the utmost perfection: the men were patterns of politeness, bravery, and gallantry; the women of beauty, wit, and entertainment; his troops there were the bravest in the world, his counsellors the wisest, his manufacturers the most ingenious,
his subjects the happiest; and at Hanover, in short, plenty reigned, magnificence resided, arts flourished, diversions abounded, riches flowed, and everything was in the utmost perfection that contributes to make a prince great or a people blessed. (...)
In truth he hated the English, looked upon them all as king-killers and republicans, grudged them their riches as well as their liberty, thought them all overpaid, and said to Lady Sundon one day as she was waiting at dinner, just after he returned from Germany, that he was forced to distribute his favours here verydifferently from the manner in which he bestowed them at Hanover ; /that there he rewarded people for doing
their duty and serving him well, but that here he was obliged to enrich people for being rascals, and buy them not to cut his throat.
The Queen did not always think in a different style of the English, though she kept her thoughts more to herself than the King, as being more prudent, more sensible, and more mistress of her passions ; yet even she could not entirely disguise these sentiments to the observation of those who were perpetually about her, and put her upon subjects that betrayed her into revealing them.
Hervey was a satirist, so I'm taking this a pinch of salt and the awareness that G2 believing some things were better in Hannover would already been taken as Britain bashing by most Brits, given their idea of England as the climax of civilisation. This said, I still find it amusing, and Mildred, if you do get around to writing Fritz in G2's presence, imagine how the Hannover and Germany praise goes down then. :)
Caroline, btw, never goes with G2 to Hannover; she stays because he always makes her regent in his absence. (Never Fritz of Wales.) Which she thoroughly enjoys. Hervey, ever ready to share scandal, can't report one more about Madame W. other than that he can't understand what G2 sees in her, so he turns towards another German lady in G2's entourage and claims one of "Aunt" Melusine's sisters has also been getting it on with not one, but two Georges and Fritz of Wales:
This Madame d'Elitz was a Schulemberg, sister to my Lady Chesterfield—a very handsome lady, though now a little in her decline, with a reat deal of wit, who had had a thousand lovers, and had been catched in bed with a man twenty years ago, and been divorced from her husband upon it. She was said to have been mistress to three generations of the Hanover family — the late King, the present, and the Prince of Wales before he came to England, which was one generation more than the Duchess of Valentinois " (mistress to Henry II.) could boast of in France. The present King had quitted Madame d'Elitz for Madame Walmoden, upon which a quarrel ensued between the two ladies, and the King thereupon had turned Madame d'Elitz out of the palace the year before; just therefore when the King set out for Hanover this year, Madame d'Elitz set out for England, where she now was with her aunt and sister, the Duchess of Kendal and Lady Chesterfield.
Note from our Victorian editor Croker: Hervey is wrong about Diane de Poitiers having slept with Francis I. of France as well as his son Henry II (the one married to Catherine de' Medici), that was slander, and he's probably slandering the third Schulenburg sister as well. He could be right. Anyway, how come we haven't heard of her before?
ETA: Also: didn't Lord Chesterfield help Peter Keith leave Amsterdam hidden as part of his entourage? If Chesterfield was married to a Schulenburg sister, that means he's distantly related to the Kattes, thus also justifying imaginary descendant's name of Philip Stanhope in "Zeithain". Anyway: I propose someone should filk "The Schuyler Sisters" to "The Schulenburg Sisters" /ETA
Speaking of mistresses: G2 makes it known Fritz of Wales should finally tie the knot, and he's found an ideal bride while in Hannover: 17 years old Augusta von Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. Queen Caroline adds he should ditch the girlfriend with the child she refuses to believe is her son's. Fritz of Wales, who is about to break up with Miss Vane anyway and according to Hervey has been eying another mistress, takes this parental news and commands well for a change and sends his flunky Lord Baltimore to Miss Vane, with a proposal that she should marry Lord Baltimore and get a pension, thus being cared for, but that it would be tactful to his future bride if she and Baltlimore were to travel abroad for a while. The kid, however, should stay here (and he swears he'll continue to take care of it). Miss Vane upon Hervey's advice and using Hervey as ghostwriter fires off an indignant letter that he's breaking her heart and no way will she leave the country her child is in and what kind of thrifty bastard is he anyway? The upshot of this is that the Lord Baltlimore marriage is off the table, Miss Vane gets a larger pension in her own name and doesn't have to leave the country. Alas, she then goes to Bath to enjoy the spa and dies. Little Fitzfrederick also dies with just a week distance. Hervey grudgingly admits Fritz of Wales seemed more distressed about this than anyone had thought him capable of being.
On to Lady Archibald Hamilton, according to Hervey the new mistress of the love rat. (Again, it's worth keeping in mind that the same Hervey who is writing all this managed to juggle his own wife, Miss Vane, Stephen Fox and Fritz of Wales.)
Lady Archibald Hamilton was not young, had never been very pretty, and had lost at least as much of that small share of beauty she once possessed as it is usual for women to do at five-and-thirty, after being the mother of ten children. Her husband, Lord Archibald Hamilton, was a Scotchman, uncle to the Duke of Hamilton, a Lord of the Admiralty, and of so quiet, so secure, and contented
a temper, that he seemed cut out to play the passive character his wife and the Prince had graciously allotted him. His wife was cunning, and had just sense enough to make that cunning useful to her, when employed to work on such a husband as Lord Archibald Hamilton, and such a lover as the Prince of Wales ; and succeeded perfectly well in flattering the first into an opinion of
her virtue, and the latter into an admiration of her beauty and understanding, which she facilitated by the much easier task of making the Prince believe she was entirely captivated by his.
But as there always are some people who doubt of the most notorious intrigues, as well as others who make no doubt of what only themselves believe, so there were some few who thought, or, I rather believe, affected to think, that this commerce between Lady Archibald Hamilton and the Prince was merely platonic, though stronger symptoms of an affaire faite never appeared on any pair than were to be seen between this couple. He saw her often at her own house, where he seemed as welcome to the master as the mistress ; he met her often, too, at her sister's; walked with her day after day for hours together tete-a-tete in a morning in St. James's Park ; and whenever she was at the drawing-room (which was pretty frequently), his behaviour was so remarkable
that his nose and her ear were inseparable(...)
And you thought Voltaire was bitchy about Fritz and Fredersdorf. Lady Archibald Hamilton becomes lady-in-waiting to the new bride, Augusta. Augusta has gotten one of those long distance royal marriages where a substitute gets send and brings the bride home, to which Lord Delaware:
Lord Delaware, if the King chose him to prevent the Prince's having any jealousy of his future bride's affections being purloined on the way by him who was sent to attend her to England, was the properest man his Majesty could have pitched upon ; for, except his white staff and red riband, as Knight of the Bath, I know of nothing belonging to the long, lank, awkward person of Lord Delaware that could attract her eyes ; nor do I believe there could be found in any of the Goth or Yandal courts of Germany a more unpolished ambassador for such an occasion.
Augusta, poor girl, arrives in Britain and throws herself on the ground before the King and Queen, which wins them over for a few days at least. Hervey, however, is not impressed:
She could speak not one word of English, and few of French; and when it was proposed the year before to her mother, when this match was resolved upon, that she should be taught one of these languages, her mother said it must be quite unnecessary, for the Hanover Family having been above twenty years on the throne, to be sure most people in England spoke German (and especially at Court) as often and as well as English. A conjecture so well founded that I believe there were not three natives in England that understood one word of it better than in the reign of Queen Anne.
Hervey, I think that says rather more about British nobility than it does about Augusta's Mom's assumptions.
The Princess was rather tall, and had health and youth enough in her face, joined to a very modest andgood-natured look, to make her countenance not disagreeable; but her person, from being very ill-made, a good deal awry, her arms long, and her motions
awkward, had, in spite of all the finery of jewels and brocade, an ordinary air, which no trappings could cover or exalt.
Now if you think only women who have sex with Fritz of Wales are the objects of Hervey's scorn, you're mistaken. He's just as malicious about the woman who would have married Fritz of Prussia, to wit, Princess Amalie (as her mother calls her) or Emily (as Hervey calls her). The only princess Hervey likes is Princess Caroline, but as for Amalia/Emily/Amalie:
The Queen used to speak to Lord Hervey on this subject with as little reserve when the Princess Caroline was present, as when alone ; but never before the Princess Emily, who had managed her affairs so well, as to have lost entirely the confidence of her mother, without having obtained the friendship of her brother; by trying to make her court by turns to both, she had by turns betrayed both, and at last lost both. Princess Emily had much the least sense, except her brother, of the family, but had for two years much the prettiest person. She was lively, false, and a great liar ; did many ill offices to people, and no good ones; and, for want of prudence, said as many shocking she said disagreeable ones behind their backs. She had as many enemies as acquaintances, for nobody knew her without disliking her.
Lord Hervey was very ill with her : she had first used him ill, to flatter her brother, which of course had made him not use her very well ; and the preference on every occasion he gave her sister, the Princess Caroline, completed their mutual dislike. Princess Caroline had affability without meanness, dignity without pride, cheerfulness without levity, and . prudence without falsehood.
So much for the maybe Queen of Prussia. I should say here she sounds far more amiable in her wiki entry, which is the only other thing I've read about her. Who knows?
Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
If my research is correct, it's even crazier than that. I've done my best to organize the convoluted genealogical relationships below.
Act 1
Dramatis Personae
1) Melusine von der Schulenburg, Duchess of Kendal: Related by marriage (but not blood, as far as we can tell), to the Kattes. Called Aunt Melusine by Hans Hermann. Mistress of George I. She and G1 had 3 daughters, (2) - (4) below.
2) Anna Luise von der Schulenburg, Countess of Dölitz: Or "d'Elitz," as Hervey spells it. Oldest daughter of G1 and Melusine. Mistress of G1, G2, and FoW, according to Hervey.
3) Petronella von der Schulenburg: 2nd daughter of G1 and Melusine. Possibly had an affair with visiting Hans Hermann in the 1720s, per a letter from Hans Heinrich to his brother. Married Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield, aka the famous Chesterfield, in 1733.
4) Margarethe Gertrud von Oeynhausen: 3rd daughter of G1 and Melusine. I have no stories about her (yet).
5) Philip Stanhope, 4th Earl of Chesterfield: The famous one. Married to Melusine's daughter Petronella. British envoy to the Netherlands in 1730. Helped Peter Keith escape to England.
6) Philip Stanhope: Modern-day protagonist of Zeithain. Fictional descendant of Petronella and Chesterfield, who in reality had no children together.
See also the family tree, which is missing Melusine's other daughters, because at the time I made it, I didn't know that one was of such interest to gossipy sensationalists. ;)
Scene 1
Philip Stanhope is so named because Melusine's daughter Petronella married Lord Chesterfield.
Scene 2
When Hervey writes, "Madame d'Elitz was a Schulemberg, sister to my Lady Chesterfield," it's because Madame d'Elitz is Melusine's oldest daughter, and Melusine's second daughter, Petronella, is Lady Chesterfield (as of 1733).
Scene 3
If Anna Luise has been sleeping with G1, G2, and FoW, or any combination thereof, those are her father, half-brother, and half-nephew. That's one generation more (that I know of) than Countess Orzelska, supposed lover of her father and half-brother!
Act 2
Dramatis Personae
7) Gertrud von der Schulenberg: Sister of Melusine. Wife of Friedrich Achaz von der Schulenburg, who is clearly related to her, although how closely, I can't say. Adoptive mother of (2) - (3), Anna Luise and Petronella.
8) Friedrich Achaz von der Schulenburg: Married to Melusine's sister. Related to his wife somehow. Adoptive father of Melusine's two oldest children by G1.
Scene 1
You might have been lured into thinking that Anna Luise and Petronella are von der Schulenbergs because their mother Melusine was a von der Schulenberg and they were illegitimate, but no, that would be too easy.
The reason Anna Luise (2) and Petronella (3) are von der Schulenbergs, while their younger sister (4) is not, is that the first two were adopted by their mother's sister, Aunt Gertrud, and it so happens that Aunt Gertrud had married a relative by the same last name. Whereas (4) was adopted by a *different* sister of Melusine, who had married a different man, and thus had a different last name.
Scene 2
So when Hervey writes, "Madame d'Elitz set out for England, where she now was with her aunt and sister, the Duchess of Kendal and Lady Chesterfield," it's because her aunt, the Duchess of Kendal, is actually her mother (you know, like all the popes and their "nephews"), and her adoptive mother is her real mother's sister.
So I'm speculating that Hervey thinks Madame d'Elitz is actually the daughter of Melusine's sister and *not* the daughter of G1 and Melusine, otherwise we'd be hearing a lot more about supposed incest? Or could that be the product of grandson + editor bowdlerization?
I can't give you a genealogical visual here, but I might make one up at some point, back pain permitting. Because wow. ;)
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
While the later isn't impossible, my money is on the former, and futhermore, that it's another case of English nobles mistaking the Hannover royals treating their illegitimate kin as family members meaning said kin are mistresses. Given the precedent of Sophia von Kielmannsegg/Lady Darlington, that makes sense. Besides, Hervey mentions being bored to tears and tuning out whenever G2, who loved talking genealogy - it was a hobby of his - started on who was related to whom. Thus, Hervey might have missed the mention that this lady was in fact G2's half sister, if, that is, G2 bothered to mention it.
Also, thank you so much on another superb job, Royal Librarian and Genealogist! And so it's still true that Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam by the husband of Katte's sort of cousin and possible deflowerer. Saved in more sense than one, because the essay you so kindly allowed me to read contains some great info on the years 1730 - 1732, among them that in 1730, there was a big scandal and trial against hundreds of gay men which made international waves.
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
Ah, yes, that does make sense. I think we've solved this mystery! (Pending further evidence, as always.)
Hervey mentions being bored to tears and tuning out whenever G2, who loved talking genealogy - it was a hobby of his - started on who was related to whom.
Lololol, yep, I bet that'd do it.
And so it's still true that Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam by the husband of Katte's sort of cousin and possible deflowerer.
Future husband, but yes. I'd thought it was only unreliable Wilhelmine and unreliable son of Keith who mentioned Chesterfield by name, but I checked Kloosterhuis yesterday, and it's also in the Mylius write-up that Keith was admitted to Chesterfield's house for asylum, and Mylius cites his sources, so I'm taking it as true. Though from the report, it kind of looks like Chesterfield wasn't directly involved?
Ob nun gleich der nachgeschickte Königlich Preußische Obrist du Moulin und der preußische Envoyé alle Mühe angewendet, seiner habhafft zu werden, auch von denen committirten Räthen von Holland eine Ordre an den Cammer-Bewaerder erhalten gehabt, denselben arretiren zu lassen, so ist es doch umsonst gewesen, indem nach des Cammer-Bewaerders Rapport vom 15. August 1730 und anderen habenden Nachrichten schon Tages zuvor gegen Abend der von Kait mit dem Cammer[-Diener] des Generallieutenants Baron von Keppel, so ehmahls alß Envoyé in Berlin gewesen, aus dem Quartier ,Zu 3 Schwalben‘ genant weggegangen, nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport in des Großbritannischen Ambassadeurs Mylords Graffen von Chesterfields Hauß getragen und an obbesagten Cammerdiener abgegeben worden.
Im Haag hat dieser von Kait sich sehr bemühet, einen Comte d’Halberville auszufragen, hat sich auch unter dem Nahmen eines Graffen von Sparr an-
fangs bey den obbesagten Generallieutenant Baron von Keppel anmelden laßen, jedoch derselbe ihn nicht gekant. Weil aber deßelben Cammerdiener nicht wißen wollen, wohin der von Kait gekommen sey, und in Abwesenheit des Graffen von Chesterfields der Secretarius sich gegen den Preußischen Envoyé und erwehnten Obristen entschuldiget, daß ihn nicht zustehe, einige Recherches zu thun und über die Domestiquen sich dergleichen Autoritaet anzumaßen, so ist im Haag seine Persohn weiter aufzusuchen umsonst gewesen. Es hat auch der desertirte von Kait sich nicht mehr lange aufgehalten, sondern sich weggemacht, und ist den 18ten August früh in Gesellschaft des Haus- [und] Hof-Meisters von besagtem Graffen und nebst noch 2 Persohnen zu Schevelingen mit einer Kutsche angekommen, und nachdem er von denenselben an ein dazu gemiethetes Pinco oder Fischer-Schiff begleitet worden, ist er ohnerachtet der Wind sehr contrair gewesen, daß auch andere Schiffe in die Maas zurückgetrieben worden, dennoch in aller Eyl ab- und nach Engelland übergegangen.
My take on this:
Mylius: "FW, please believe us, your guys tried REALLY HARD to capture that Peter, but to no avail. Here's why.
"According to the report I have in hand, written on 15. August 1730, Peter had shown up at Chesterfield's house the day before, toward evening, together with the chamberlain of Baron von Keppel [Mildred: this guy, I think] who formerly had been envoy in Berlin [Mildred: I'm assuming that's where Peter knew him from].
"Now, Peter had been asking all around the Hague after Fritz's pseudonym, and initially introduced himself under his own, but von Keppel [Mildred: apparently a British courtier with ties to the Netherlands] didn't know him under that name [Mildred: and presumably wouldn't admit him until he gave his real name].
"Then the Prussians showed up the next day, and Keppel's chamberlain was like, 'Sorry, Chesterfield isn't here atm, Peter who? I can't help you, no authority to investigate this on my own or tell Chesterfield's staff what to do, plz go away.' So our Prussian guys had to give up as they got totally stonewalled by the British.
"Then three days later, Peter was taken to the coast by Chesterfield's staff, and set sail in all haste to England, even though it was so stormy that other ships were being driven back to the Meuse.
"Sorry, Your Majesty! Points for effort?"
nachdem kurtz vorher seine Hardes nach des Haußknechts Rapport
Google and I are stumped on "Hardes." All I can find is "old clothes, rags" in Norman. Help?
the essay you so kindly allowed me to read contains some great info on the years 1730 - 1732, among them that in 1730, there was a big scandal and trial against hundreds of gay men which made international waves.
Ooh, I can't wait for the write-up on this one! I've been thinking that we should dig a little more into the history of homosexuality during our period, only I have to learn German before I can start reading new things. So yay for you reading new things and telling us about them! The free, made-to-order education never fails to astound me. All hail Royal Reader!
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)
It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
Re: Chesterfields, Schulenburgs, and Kattes, oh my!
Yeah, I could tell that none of my Google hits for this word postdated 1900, so I figured it was an old-fashioned one. Thanks for taking your best stab at it!
(A Hausknecht is far lower ranking than a Kammerdiener, if you're wondering, but you don't have a different word for "Knecht" and "Diener" in English, do you?)
I had figured as much, but as for English translations...I'm sure thanks to 19th century English country houses, we could convey the hierarchical difference, but I'm not sure exactly how. Valet/chamberlain is pretty high-ranking in English, and as for Hausknecht...google tells me that "house boy" has a different meaning today, although "house boy" and "hall boy" were both used for low-ranking English servants, as was "page". "Footman" is more easily recognized today, though I don't know if it would be the appropriate equivalent of Hausknecht.
It's a highly useful essay, and the authors are good enough to make it clear what data they have, and where their speculation starts. They're also really good at establishing context.
Wonderful! Largely because of the paywall, we haven't been reading many recent essays, as opposed to books, in our salon, but I do have JSTOR access myself if you ever want anything from there, and Royal Patron has broader access, though with more of a delay.
ETA: Just from reading the footnote to the first page, I see: This paper springs from a joint project on John, Lord Hervey, which the authors intend will lead in due course to a new edition of his 'Memoirs' and correspondence.
Nice! Because we need one.
Hmm. Though this article was published in 2009, the new edition doesn't seem to be out yet, though Smith's web page says, "I continue to pursue an interest in eighteenth-century court culture through work on a new edition of Lord Hervey’s Memoirs of the Reign of King George II, co-edited with Stephen Taylor." No idea how recently her page was updated, though.
ETA2: Peter Keith was saved in Amsterdam
Just a nitpick: The Hague. That was Fritz's destination, that's where Chesterfield and the other envoys lived, and that's where the government is based even today, even though Amsterdam is the capital. Wikipedia tells me:
In 1806, when the Kingdom of Holland was a puppet state of the First French Empire, the settlement was granted city rights by Louis Bonaparte. After the Napoleonic Wars, modern-day Belgium and the Netherlands were combined in the United Kingdom of the Netherlands to form a buffer against France. As a compromise, Brussels and Amsterdam alternated as capital every two years, with the government remaining in The Hague. After the separation of Belgium in 1830, Amsterdam remained the capital of the Netherlands, while the government was situated in The Hague.
TFW your capital changes every two years, I guess.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Those Germans!
Mildred, if you do get around to writing Fritz in G2's presence, imagine how the Hannover and Germany praise goes down then. :)
Lol, this would be awesome. Write this and I will bring popcorn :D
Alas, she then goes to Bath to enjoy the spa and dies. Little Fitzfrederick also dies with just a week distance. Hervey grudgingly admits Fritz of Wales seemed more distressed about this than anyone had thought him capable of being.
Sad as this is for Vane, I have to admit I laughed. Oh Hervey.
And you thought Voltaire was bitchy about Fritz and Fredersdorf.
lololol wow! I see that malicious gossip columnists have nothing on Hervey!
so there were some few who thought, or, I rather believe, affected to think, that this commerce between Lady Archibald Hamilton and the Prince was merely platonic, though stronger symptoms of an affaire faite never appeared on any pair than were to be seen between this couple.
So... was she actually his mistress?
Lord Delaware, if the King chose him to prevent the Prince's having any jealousy of his future bride's affections being purloined on the way by him who was sent to attend her to England, was the properest man his Majesty could have pitched upon
Man this guy does have a spiteful and hilarious way of phrasing things!
Lord Hervey was very ill with her : she had first used him ill, to flatter her brother, which of course had made him not use her very well ; and the preference on every occasion he gave her sister, the Princess Caroline, completed their mutual dislike.
Ha. The sympathies of this passage are definitely on the side of this "Lord Hervey" character :P I wouldn't trust his take on her either :P
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Those Germans!
Man this guy does have a spiteful and hilarious way of phrasing things!
Doesn't he just? Which is why I find it, in retrospect, really remarkable Franz Stephan got praised as he did by the super critical Hervey when visiting Britain. (I mean, Hervey's also extremely complimentary about the Fox brothers and Algarotti, but he was in love with each of these at different times, and wasn't, as far as anyone knows, in love with Franz Stephan.)
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Those Germans!
Perhaps Sir William learned unconventional attitudes towards domestic arrangements from his parents?
Perhaps!
Which is why I find it, in retrospect, really remarkable Franz Stephan got praised as he did by the super critical Hervey when visiting Britain.
MT: My husband is the *best*.
Hervey's Memoirs: Who's the worst Fritz of them all?
Now, Fritz of Wales' budget is much less than what his father G2 used to get when he'd been Fritz of Wales, and when this still doesn't change after marriage, he doesn't just keep asking his parents for more, no, he tries to get his budget heightened via parliament. This scheme doesn't work, partly Sir Robert Walpole and Hervey work against it. (Hervey asks for a peerage for Stephen Fox from Walpole given that Stephen did his best to cajole his parliamentary colleagues to side with the King, not the Prince, and for some thank you money for Henry Fox, who did the same.) Meanwhile, FW's rants against Fritz are completely matched by Queen Caroline's words about her son and his attempt to make common cause with MPs:
"My God," says the Queen, " popularity always makes me sick ; but Fritz's popularity makes me vomit. I hear that yesterday, on his side of the house, they talked of the King's being cast away with the same sang-froid as you would talk of a coach being overturned ; and that my good son strutted about as if he had been already King. Did you mind the air with which he came into my drawing-room in the morning, though he does not think fit to honour me with his presence or ennui me with his wife's of a night?"
Events come to a head when Augusta gets pregnant and Caroline tells everyone she thinks Augusta is faking it, and will substitute a bought baby, and then Fritz of Wales refuses to tell his parents when the birth is expected when G2 orders him and Augusta to Hampton Court, and when his wife gets into labor, insists on taking her to St. James. (Which however you look at it was an incredibly selfish jerk move - that drive with a woman in labor must have been hell - but of course Hervey doesn't think all the relentless hate from the rest of the family might have given Fritz of Wales the inspiration of not wanting his parents present at the kid's birth. As mentioned in my Horowitz write up , the baby is a sickly girl which, Caroline says, is the only reason why believes it's Augusta's baby after all. She's nice to Augusta when she visits but doesn't say a word to Fritz of Wales. The rupture between son and parents is now complete. Letters are exchanged. Some courtiers try to mediate, but:
Lord Essex telling, and asking, at the same time, if he should call one of the Ministers, the Queen said, " For what? to give an answer to Fritz ? Does the King want a Minister to tell him what answer he likes to give to his son ? or to call a council for such a letter, like an aifair d'etat?"
In between everything else, an old plan gets revived - separating Hannover and Britain, with giving one to Caroline's and G2's fave William, future Billy the Butcher. Says our editor in a footnote:
George I., in his enmity to George II., entertained some idea of separating the sovereignty of England and Hanover (Coxe^s Walpole, p. 132) ; and we find from Lord Chancellor King's ' Diary,' under the date of June, 1725, " a negotiation had been lately on foot in relation to the two young Princes, Frederick and William. The Prince (George II.) and his wife were for excluding Prince Frederick, but that after the King and the Prince he should be Elector of Hanover, and Prince William King of Great Britain ; but that the King said it would be unjust to do it without Prince Frederick's consent, who was now of an age to judge for himself, and so the matter now stood " (Campbell's ' Chancellors,' iv. 318). Sir Robert Walpole, who communicated this to the Chancellor, added that he had told George I. that " if he did not bring Prince Frederick over in his life-time, he would never set his foot on English ground." This early enmity of his parents to Frederick Lord Campbell cannot explain ; " but the Prince had his revenge by perpetually disturbing the government of his father till, in 1751, the joyful exclamation by George II was uttered, ' Fritz is dead!' "—ib.
Which Hervey, who died in the early 1740s, didn't live to see. (Nor Fritz of Wales as a father even his enemies couldn't bash; FoW raised his children - he had nine all in all - with English as their first language, he gave them all a bit of the garden in his estate they were to garden themselves as they wanted, which started a life long passion in future G2, "Farmer George", and he played with them and encouraged them with music.) What he did live to see where endless "We hate Fritz" parties with the other royals:
The Princess Caroline, who loved her mother and disliked her brother in equal and extreme degrees, was in much the same state of mind as the Queen ; her consideration and regard for her mother making her always adopt the Queen's opinions, as well as share her pleasures and her afflictions. They neither of them made much ceremony of wishing a hundred times a day that the Prince might drop down dead of an apoplexy— the Queen cursing the hour of his birth, and the Princess Caroline declaring she grudged him every hour he continued to breathe ; and reproaching Lord Hervey with his weakness for having ever loved him, and being fool enough to think that he had been ever beloved by him, as well as being so great a dupe as to believe the nauseous beast (those were her words) cared for anybody but his own nauseous self—that he loved anything but money—that he was not the greatest liar
that ever spoke—and would not put one arm about anybody's neck to kiss them, and then stab' them with the other, if he could censored passageShe protested that from the time he had been here six months—so early had she found him out—she had never loved him better or thought better of him than at that moment.'
At this point it must have occurred to Hervey that future readers might doubt how reliable he is re: Fritz of Wales, so he does some self analysis about his motives, in the third person:
The truth is, if his temper was susceptible of provocation, he might, without being capable of feeling long provoked at the same circumstance, have continued long warm in his resentment against the Prince, since scarce a day passed without some new lie the Prince had made of him during the quarrel, as well as some virulent thing he now said of him, being reported to Lord Hervey by the Queen or the Princess Caroline, who both hated the Prince at this time to a degree which cannot be credited or conceived by people who did not hear the names they called him, the character they gave him, the curses they lavished upon him, and the fervour with which they both prayed every day for his death.
It would be endless to endeavour to repeat all the lies Lord Hervey at this time heard the Prince had coined of him, but one or two of the most remarkable I will insert. The Prince told the Queen and all his sisters that Lord Hervey had told him everybody said his Royal Highness was known to have such a partiality for the Princess Eoyal, and to be so incapable of concealing anything from her, that nobody doubted (Note from Editor - lines stricken out in manuscript by grandson).
Another was that Lord Hervey, from the moment he first came about him, had been always endeavouring to give him ill impressions of the Queen and all his sisters ; to blow him up against his father and a hundred times endeavoured to persuade him to
make a party to move for his 100,000?. a-year in Parliament^ as well as brought offers to him from people in the Opposition, and made use of Miss Vane's interest to get them accepted.
I do not relate these things as any justification of Lord Hervey's conduct at this time ; for if personal resentment, and a desire to vex and mortify the Prince,- had any share in his views and counsels at this juncture, I own he is not justifiable, as nothing can justify the meanness of a man of sense desiring, from a principle of revenge, to hurt those by whom he has been injured, further than
self-preservation requires, or the silly received laws of mistaken customary honour enjoin: but take this particular (with regard to the Prince) out of Lord Hervey's character, and I believe it would be impossible to give another instance of the same sort of wrong to anybody in any part of his conduct ; though few people had more enemies, or had reason to be irritated against more people, if being abused is allowed to be a reason.
Yes, Hervey, I'm sure you were the milk of human kindness otherwise. Good grief.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Who's the worst Fritz of them all?
Wow. Even accounting for Hervey maybe not being the most reliable narrator here... gosh.
That analysis of his motives in third person is really... something. I gotta say that it does not inspire me to think of him as more reliable than I thought of him before.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Who's the worst Fritz of them all?
Now, FoW even when you assume bias was by no means fault-free, but it's the divergence between the rethoric employed - the authors of the "Hephaistion" essay point out Hervey's decriptions occasionally borrow from Tacitus on Tiberius and Nero - and what's actually there that is so startling. Rethoric aside, what FoW is guilty of:
- pre-marriage, having mistresses, as most bachalor (or married) princes, FW aside, did. Possibly also post marriage, depending on whether you think he and Lady Archivald Hamilton had a thing and kept carrying on. (BTW, her wiki entry lists her as his mistress, whereas her son's wiki entry is far more cautious and says "possible", as in: His mother was a favourite, and possibly a mistress, of the Prince of Wales and William grew up with his son George III, who would call him his "foster brother". (Citation given here, a biography of Sir William Hamilton.) (BTW, if you're wondering why G3 calling Sir William "foster brother" did not help Sir William's widow Emma many a year later, by then G3 had his second and lasting diagnosis of madness and was locked away.)
- feuding with his sister and parents about Handel, supporting a rival opera
- wanting a higher budget, like the one his father used to get as Prince of Wales
- drifting towards the parliamentary opposition, to the point where he tries to use Parliament to force his father to give him a higher budget
- not refering to the Queen in his letters to the King (classified as a sign of disrespect by his parents)
- pretending to respect and love his parents in publich when he does not.
- The stunt he pulled with Augusta in labor, inflicting the one and a half hour drive on her rather than let her give birth at Hampton Court.
Only the last one is truly terrible (imo, as always), and Augusta would have been the one with a right to complain and condemn, not the parents who spent the entire pregnancy doubting the baby was real. It's clearly a case of another catastrophic feedback loop, where Fritz of Wales after fourteen years of absence shows up a stranger, can't connect with a family who doesn't really want him to be there (though I doubt they hated him from the get go), and eventually gives up trying and becomes hostile in turn, which furthers everyone's aversion towards him.
Meanwhile, despite groving up in Hannover, he really did his best to fit in, to become English, using only this language when talking to Brits, not French, and during his friendship with Hervey co-writing a play in it. (A bad play, but that's besides the point). Later when he was a father he ensured that English was the children's first language (hence G3 being the first Hannover monarch who actually spoke English as his native language). The friends he chose were from Britain, not from the Germans at court. But that made his parents even more suspicious of him.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: Who's the worst Fritz of them all?
I mean he was kinda wrong there...although this link makes it sound like he was fine with Handel, just not with Handel's opera company? Which makes a lot more sense to me, honestly. (And which Hervey's excerpt does not make clear at all!)not refering to the Queen in his letters to the King (classified as a sign of disrespect by his parents)
Whoa. This is the kind of thing that getting upset about is just so textbook dysfunctional family that it pulled me up short reading it. Yeah, I can totally see what you call the catastrophic feedback loop happening, where at some point everyone just gets so hostile to everyone else that no one is willing to give anyone else even kind of the benefit of the doubt. Gah!
Meanwhile, despite groving up in Hannover, he really did his best to fit in, to become English, using only this language when talking to Brits, not French, and during his friendship with Hervey co-writing a play in it. (A bad play, but that's besides the point). Later when he was a father he ensured that English was the children's first language (hence G3 being the first Hannover monarch who actually spoke English as his native language). The friends he chose were from Britain, not from the Germans at court.
I find that rather endearing :)
Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Lord Hervey took occasion upon this subject, among many other things, to say, he did not believe there ever was a father and a son so thoroughly unlike in every particular as the King and the Prince, and enumerated several points in which they differed, as little to the advantage of the Prince as to the dispraise or displeasure of the King. The King said he had really thought so himself a thousand times, and had often asked the Queen if the beast was his son. Lord Hervey said that question must be to very little purpose, for to be sure the Queen would never own it if he was not. The King said the first child generally was the husband's, "and therefore," says he, "I fancy he is what in German we call a Weckselbalch; (Hervey's spelling; it's actually "Wechselbalg") I do not know," continued he, " if you have a word for it in English : it is not what you call a foundling, but a child put in a cradle instead of another."
" That is a changeling," replied Lord Hervey. The King was extremely pleased with this translation, and said, " I wish you could prove him a changeling in the German sense of the word as easily as anybody can prove him so in the other ;—though the Queen was a great while before her maternal affection would give him up for a fool, and yet I told her so before he had been acting as if he had not common sense."
Lord Hervey said the Queen had often last year done the honours of his Royal Highness's understanding to him, and was very loth to give it quite up, but that of late he had not perceived she had any hope left of disguising it. "My dear Lord," replied the Queen, ' " I will give it you under my hand, if you are in any fear of my relapsing, that my dear first-born is the greatest ass and the greatest liar, and the greatest canaille, and the greatest beast in the whole world, and I that I most heartily wish he was out of it."
And so on, and so forth. Now, you may recall G2 had had a terrible relationship with his own father, G1, so FoW and/or his advisors get the idea to publish some letters between G1 and future G2 when G2 was Prince of Wales, with the implication: Hypocrite much? Considering most of said letters were burned by Caroline when G2 became King, the Royals think that Fritz must have gotten those letters from the Duchess of Kendal. (Aka Aunt Melusine to Katte, mistress of G1.) Otoh, Hervey thinks Fritz must have a spy in the palace, because the letters published are just those three not burned. In any event, he thinks they just demonstrate that G1 was a way harsher father, since he temporarily took G2's children from him during their biggest argument, while G2 generously declared he wouldn't do that to FoW.
During Caroline's ten days of dying, Hervey and the Royals, minus Fritz and Augusta who aren't allowed access, spend most at the time in Caroline's bed room or next door. This temporarly makes Hervey soften on the King, but not so much is second least favourite Hannover offspring, Emily/Amalia, quondam intended for Fritz of Prussia. An illustration in the following scene (re: storm - G2 and Emily are referencing G2 during his most recent return from Hannover being caught in a tempest across the channel):
One night whilst the Queen was ill, as (G2) was sitting in his nightgown and nightcap in a great chair, with his legs upon a stool, and nobody in the room with him but the Princess Emily, who lay upon a couch, and Lord Hervey, who sat by the fire, he talked in this strain of his own courage in the storm and his illness, till the Princess Emily, as Lord Hervey thought, fell fast asleep, whilst Lord Hervey, as tired as he was of the present conversation and this last week's watching, was left alone to act civil auditor and adroit courtier, to applaud what he heard, and every now and then to ask such proper questions as led the King into giving some more particular detail of his own magnanimity. The King, turning towards Princess Emily, and seeing her eyes shut, cried, "Poor good child! her duty, affection, and attendance on her mother have quite exhausted her spirits." And soon after he went into the Queen's room. As soon as his back was turned. Princess Emily started up, and said, " Is he gone ? How tiresome he is!"
Lord Hervey, who had no mind to trust her Royal Highness with his singing her father's praises in duetto with her, replied only, " I thought your Royal Highness had been asleep." " No," said the Princess Emily ; " I only shut my eyes that I might not join in the ennuyant conversation, and wish I could have shut my ears too. In the first place, I am sick to death of hearing of his great courage every day of my life ; in the next place, one thinks now of Mama, and not of him. Who cares for his old storm ? I believe, too, it is a great lie, and that he was as much afraid as I should have been, for all what he says now ; and as to his not being afraid when he was ill, I know that is a lie, for I saw him, and I heard all his sighs and his groans, when he was in no more danger than I am at this moment. He was talking, too, for ever of dying, and that he was sure he should not recover." All this, considering the kind things she had heard the King say the minute before, when he imagined her asleep. Lord Hervey thought a pretty extraordinary return for her to make for that paternal goodness, or would have thought it so in anybody but her ; and looked upon this openness to him, whom she did not love, yet less to be accounted for, unless he could have imagined it was to draw him in to echo her, and then to relate what he said as if he had said it unaccompanied.
Whilst she was going on with the panegyric on theKing which I have related, the King returned, upon which she began to rub her eyes as if she had that instant raised her head from her pillows, and said, "I have really slept very heartily. How long had Papa been out of the room ?" The King, who had very little or rather no suspicion in his composition, took these appearances for realities, and said, " It is time for us all to take a little rest. We will all go to bed, for by staying here we do the poor Queen no good, and ourselves hurt." And so dismissing Lord Hervey, they all retired.
You already know the famous "Marry again after my death"/ "No, I will have mistresses!" exchange in French between Caroline and G2, for which Hervey is the source. G2 was truly distraught upon her death, and mistresses or not, remained so. Caroline's coffin and later his own are of the kind where you can draw one of the walls back once both are laid next to each other; he wanted their dust to mingle. (Caroline died in 1737; G2 in 1761). Grieving Caroline together makes him bond with Hervey (enough so Hervey ends up being appointed Lord Privy Seal), and thus Hervey gets treated to G2's reflections on his German relations. Which brings us back to our main points of interest again. A reminder: G2's mother was Sophia Dorothea the older, locked up for 30 years for her affair with (probably murdered) Count Königsmarck, and dying in prison. The "Reminscences" are by Horace Walpole, son of Sir Robert Walpole and the other great bitchy memoirist of the Georgian era:
The King often said, and to many people at this time, that not only he and his family should have a great loss in the Queen's death, but the whole nation: and would instance occasions where he owned her good sense and good temper had kept his passions within
bounds which they would otherwise have broken. And during this retirement (in which he was infinitely more talkative than I ever knew him at any other time of his whole life) he discoursed so constantly and so openly of himself, that if anybody had had a mind to write the memoirs of his life from his cradle to the present moment, the Princesses and Lord Hervey could have furnished them with materials of all the occurrences, transactions, and anecdotes, military, civil, amorous, foreign, and domestic, that could be comprehended in such a work, from his own lips : excepting what related to his mother, whom on no occasion I ever heard him mention, not even inadvertently or indirectly, any more than if such a person had never had a being. (*)
*Footnote by Victorian editor Croker: This is remarkable, and seems hardly reconcilable with the strong opinion of her innocence and the affectionate regard for her person attributed to him in the Reminiscences. "The second George loved his mother as much as he hated his father ; and purposed, it was said, if she had survived, to have brought her over and declared her Queen-Dowager. Lady Suffolk told me her surprise on going to the new Queen the morning after George I.'s death, at seeing hung up in the Queen's dressrng-room the whole-length of a lady in royal robes, and in the bed-chamber a half-length of the same person, which Lady Suffolk had never seen before." They were of his mother, which the Prince had till then kept concealed.
And now for the Prussians. G2's aunt was Sophie Charlotte, not just mother of FW but foster mother of Caroline, praised as not just one of the most beautiful but definitely one of the best educated and smartest women of her time, which is why I find this statement, err, interesting:
Of his aunt, the Queen of Prussia, too he spoke well, who, by what I heard from others, and particularly the Queen, was a very vain, good-for-nothing woman.
Et tu, Caroline? You owe your education to her, among other things. I feel let down. G2's sister is of course Sophia Dorothea the younger, wife of FW, and on her, grieving G2 apparantly had this to say in 1737:
For his sister, the present Queen of Prussia, he had the contempt she deserved, and a hatred she did not deserve.
WTF? For both Hervey and G2. Hervey having zilch interest in the Prussians per se, and dying when Fritz is still busy conquering Silesia, I don't see how he'd have any motive to make this up. But see: Hervey never met SD. He visited Hannover only once, as a young man on his Grand Tour (when he first encountered nine years old Fritz of Wales), and I don't think she was visiting Hannover as well on that occasion. Prussia, he didn't visit at all. So what is this estimation - that SD deserved contempt but not hate - based on? Perhaps all that begging for the English marriages struck him as pathetic, even if he didn't care enough to note it down, but that's the only thing I can think of.
(Now of course SD with her own treatment of her children provides enough reasons to dislike her, but Hervey seems to know nothing about this.)
As to why G2 should have contempt and hate for his sister: search me. It's not like she was madly in love with FW and rejecting her family of birth, au contraire. I'm almost starting to come around to Fritz' pov on Hannover versus Hohenzollern, but luckily your Ziebura read through reminds me this would be wrong. The rest of the Prussian pasage:
What he thought and said of the King of Prussia was much the same as what the King of Prussia thought and said of him ; that he was a proud, brutal, tyrannical, wrong-headed, impracticable fellow, who loved nobody and would use everybody ill that was in his power. How far these two Kings were in the right in this point, or how little they were so in every other, is not my business here to determine.
Meaning: peas in a pod. Again, based on all this, my speculation re: G2 pleading with the other European monarchs for Fritz' life is that it was mostly because if he didn't get to kill his son, FW certainly wouldn't. And speaking of murder: if Fritz and Wilhelmine had made those marriages, do want to place any bets on when things would have gotten violent? (Provided most circumstances stay the same.) Would Fritz of Prussia have had the fatal relationship and fallout with Hervey instead of Fritz of Wales? Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine, too, of faking her pregnancy because their oldest surely can't sire a child? Would Fritz of Prussia have killed Fritz of Wales for taking Wilhelmine in labor for a one and a half hour drive because he didn't want his parents to be present at the birth? Place your bets!
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
Her doctors should have pushed that loop of bowel back inside and hoped that the hole would heal, but instead they made a terrible error. They cut it off. Now Caroline’s digestive system was destroyed, and she took ten days to die.
Oooh nooooo! That sounds like the *worst*. Did they know it was a bowel? 'Cause this would make sense if they thought it was some random growth.
our Victorian editor childes Hervey for providing them (about a lady! and a Queen!) and proudly announces he protects us readers from them as much as he can.
*sigh*
I am really looking forward to Smith and Taylor's new and improved post-Victorian edition.
Considering most of said letters were burned by Caroline when G2 became King, the Royals think that Fritz must have gotten those letters from the Duchess of Kendal. (Aka Aunt Melusine to Katte, mistress of G1.) Otoh, Hervey thinks Fritz must have a spy in the palace, because the letters published are just those three not burned.
Hmmm. Reading between the lines, does this mean Melusine (lover of G1 and possibly therefore not a fan of G2?) and Fritz of Wales were on good terms?
G1 was a way harsher father, since he temporarily took G2's children from him during their biggest argument, while G2 generously declared he wouldn't do that to FoW.
Fritz of Prussia: And I'm with you on that! My younger siblings don't know how good they have it.
the famous "Marry again after my death"/ "No, I will have mistresses!" exchange in French between Caroline and G2, for which Hervey is the source
Hervey is the British Lehndorff counterpart in another way: our source for all these anecdotes we know!
The "Reminscences" are by Horace Walpole, son of Sir Robert Walpole and the other great bitchy memoirist of the Georgian era:
Which you will not be surprised to find in the library. They're so incredibly short the editor feels the need to apologize and flesh them out with a supplement of collected letters in order to make it long enough to be a short book instead of a long essay.
Et tu, Caroline? You owe your education to her, among other things. I feel let down.
But where would this family be without everyone bitching at everybody else?
So what is this estimation - that SD deserved contempt but not hate - based on? Perhaps all that begging for the English marriages struck him as pathetic, even if he didn't care enough to note it down, but that's the only thing I can think of.
The only thing I can think of is Wilhelmine's description of her that she gives the appearance of having more intellectual and artistic depth than she actually has, but 1) given that she's a queen, I'm not sure that more is expected of her? 2) I'm not sure how much Hervey would care about that. It is the sort of thing he could have picked up with out meeting her, though.
As to why G2 should have contempt and hate for his sister: search me.
I feel like with siblings, you don't necessarily need a reason? Sometimes someone just rubs you the wrong way, and with family, it's harder to resort to indifference. Actually, biologist Robert Sapolsky, who studies baboons in the wild, says that there are interpersonal (interbaboonal?) interactions that strike fellow baboons as weird--unless it's between two family members, and then they shrug it off.
I mean, clearly there's *some* kind of reason, and we may come across it, but it doesn't necessarily have to have been significant enough to be obvious to outsiders.
(Provided most circumstances stay the same.) Would Fritz of Prussia have had the fatal relationship and fallout with Hervey instead of Fritz of Wales?
Hmm. If we assume Fritz of Prussia stays in England until FW dies in 1740, instead of Amelia going to Prussia or both of them going to Hannover (maybe a successful esape to England?), then maybe. Only they fight over Algarotti instead of Anne Vane. :P
Algarotti: Guys, there's plenty of me to go around!
Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine, too, of faking her pregnancy because their oldest surely can't sire a child?
Would Caroline and G2 have accused Wilhelmine and Fritz of Prussia of incest? It would have explained so much: how Wilhelmine got pregnant, why Fritz was present at the birth, why Fritz carried on the paternal tradition of beating up your first cousin rather than allow Wilhelmine to be moved... (Fritz of Prussia may not be much physically, but I say killer instinct and motivation count for a lot. Look at FW!)
Actually, let's assume Fritz of Prussia, living at close range with his sister's husband, doesn't really get along with Fritz of Wales. Let's further assume that G2 (plus Parliament, I guess) would have had to be pretty strongly pro-Fritz-of-Prussia to let a double marriage happen with Fritz living at the English court. (Husbands don't usually join their wives, especially when they are the heir to a throne. I have to assume successful escape, unless you have a better scenario.)
Also, G2 hates FW, something that Fritz can get behind.
So, G2-Fritz of Prussia alliance? [ETA: Until FW is dead and Fritz doesn't need him anymore, obviously.] This might affect the Wilhelmine treatment. Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
Ah, the eternal soap opera!
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
THIS :DDDDD
Hervey is the British Lehndorff counterpart in another way: our source for all these anecdotes we know!
:D
Only they fight over Algarotti instead of Anne Vane. :P
Ha! I... cannot argue with this.
So, G2-Fritz of Prussia alliance? [ETA: Until FW is dead and Fritz doesn't need him anymore, obviously.] This might affect the Wilhelmine treatment. Particularly when Fritz of Prussia beats up Fritz of Wales and father-in-law G2 slaps him on the back and says, "Attaboy." :P
*facepalm* This would totally happen, wouldn't it.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
*facepalm* This would totally happen, wouldn't it.
I don't know if it *would* have, but I definitely like imagining it.
"My sister is not getting in a carriage while she's in labor, FIGHT ME."
Also, Fritz *would* be present at the birth.
Seriously, you are the best, and this is very in-character of you.
THIS :DDDDD
I was putting the Palladion write-up in Rheinsberg last night, and I noticed it was written in late April, a couple days after the "real life is taking over, can't perform Royal Reader duties." My reply to the write-up opened with, "I should have guessed that 'don't have time for Royal Reader duties' would amount to "still reading and reporting faster than we can keep up with." ;)" and your reply was "I know, I can't keep up! :)".
:D
We're so spoiled. <3
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Hmmm. Reading between the lines, does this mean Melusine (lover of G1 and possibly therefore not a fan of G2?) and Fritz of Wales were on good terms?
You know, I think that's very likely. Because while Fritz of Wales didn't see his parents and siblings for fourteen years, he did see his grandfather G1 whenever G1 was visiting Hannover during his reign, and Melusine was with him on those occasions. Also, Horace Walpole son of Sir Robert Walpole (G2's PM for years and years) claims that Melusine was tight with the opposition to his Dad, who was also a political enemy of FoW's (the more so the more Fritz of Wales drifted towards said opposition).
G2 having contempt and hate for his sister SD: starting Horace Walpole's memoir, I am stunned to discover HW claims that SD, daughter of G1, was "a staunch Jacobite" all her life. Now, this is the first time I've come across this claim - certainly no biographer and memoirist we've come across so far on the German side claims that, and it makes absolutely no sense in terms of SD's most dear ambition (her daughter as Queen of England, Fritz married to a Hannover-British princess and preferably governing Hannover). So I feel safe to say it's not true. However, I'm perfectly willing to believe Horace W. heard it from his primary source of G2 stories, to wit, G2's official English mistress Lady Suffolk. (Who was increasingly deaf, btw.) and didn't question it further, because HW, of a generation later than Hervey, lived until 1791 and when writing his memoir has already outlived Fritz of Prussia (whom he refers to as the late great King of Prussia). Meaning: he probably knew about Fritz favoring the Scottish Keiths, who actually were Jacobites, and the story of sending George Keith as ambassador to Versailles despite the insult to uncle G2. Maybe when that happened G2 said something like "typical! I bet his mother put him up to it!" and thus the English court, unfamiliar with SD as a person for the most part, drew this "aha! SD the Jacobite!" conclusion.
Algarotti: might reconsider Lady Mary as an option, because Hervey vs Fritz of Prussia is bound to get way uglier than his rl triangle. Or maybe he elopes with Andrew Mitchell. :)
Your scenario: sounds very likely except for one thing: what does Fritz of Prussia do the first time G2 disses the Best of All Mothers in his presence?
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Yeah, this strikes me as being akin to Thiébault claiming FW totally wanted one son to be HRE and the other King in Prussia! It makes perfect sense if you don't know just how relentlessly committed FW was to his religious beliefs.
Speaking of SD's politics, I keep seeing in places like Ziebura and Oster that she was disappointed that Fritz didn't let her influence him politically. Is there evidence for this, or just an assumption?
Algarotti: might reconsider Lady Mary as an option, because Hervey vs Fritz of Prussia is bound to get way uglier than his rl triangle. Or maybe he elopes with Andrew Mitchell. :)
Ha. I advise eloping. The farther the better.
Lady Mary: Will go to Japan as long as you're coming too!
what does Fritz of Prussia do the first time G2 disses the Best of All Mothers in his presence?
I did think of that when I was writing that up, and I'm not sure. Part of it depends on what G2 says, and how G2 responds when Fritz starts defending her, and I just don't know.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
I've seen this, too, starting with good old Preuß and Koser, but never with a footnote saying "see letter X" or "memoirs y", or "ambassadorial report Z". So until I see a citation, I'm going with "assumption", based on the fact that SD had these political battles with FW for all those years and, I suspect, also a very 19th century moralistic desire to see her punished in some fashion. "She got what she wanted, only to find out her son wasn't her puppet at all but his father's worthy successor and our national hero!", that kind of thing. (Because SD is the outright villain in Der Vater, that's certainly how this novel plays it.) But, you know, I never had the impression SD cared about Prussian politics as such, other than "English marriages for my kids, Grumbkow & Seckendorff defeated". The marriages were none-issues by the time Fritz became King, Grumbkow was dead, and Seckendorff far away, and Fritz made it very clear that SD, not EC was the first lady of Prussia, so my impression was she revelled in this and was otherwise an admiring mother (to Fritz) applauding his mighty deeds, bossy only when it came to his wardrobe.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
EEK. Ow ow ow. That... is not a way I'd like to die. (I mean, I suppose there aren't really good ways to die, but this seems like a particularly bad one.) Exhibit seventeen thousand or so on Why I Am Glad I Don't Live Then.
Wikipedia: "Over the next few days she was bled, purged, and operated on, without anaesthetic, but there was no improvement in her condition." Uh-huh.
"My dear Lord," replied the Queen, ' " I will give it you under my hand, if you are in any fear of my relapsing, that my dear first-born is the greatest ass and the greatest liar, and the greatest canaille, and the greatest beast in the whole world, and I that I most heartily wish he was out of it."
Maaaaan :( IDK, someone here is really awful. Not sure whether it's Hervey or Caroline or both, but... yeah.
In the first place, I am sick to death of hearing of his great courage every day of my life ; in the next place, one thinks now of Mama, and not of him.
Ahahahaha this... makes me like Princess Emily more rather than less :P I vote this Princess Emily and Princess Amalie of Prussia should get together!
I'm almost starting to come around to Fritz' pov on Hannover versus Hohenzollern, but luckily your Ziebura read through reminds me this would be wrong.
LOL
What he thought and said of the King of Prussia was much the same as what the King of Prussia thought and said of him ; that he was a proud, brutal, tyrannical, wrong-headed, impracticable fellow, who loved nobody and would use everybody ill that was in his power. How far these two Kings were in the right in this point, or how little they were so in every other, is not my business here to determine.
HAHAHAHA okay, Hervey, you get points for this, this is hilarious.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
Maaaaan :( IDK, someone here is really awful. Not sure whether it's Hervey or Caroline or both, but... yeah.
Granted, Caroline's mother totally neglected her so she had to learn how to read and write by herself when she was 10 until Sophie Charlotte got a hold on her, and Hervey's mother did a turnaround from "my favourite child" to "you scum of the Earth" which his biographer can't explain other than note it starts with his marriage, so the constant "Fritz of Wales is worse than Tiberius and Nero put together and I wish he was dead" outbursts coupled with "that ungrateful beast, I'm sure he wants me dead, how monstrous is that?" happen with that emotional background. (Plus Hervey quotes her as saying, which I included already in my write up of the Halsband biography, that she wishes Hervey was her son and that evil FoW had Hervey's horrible mother; the writers of the "Hephaistion and Alexander: Hervey and FoW" essay think all the constant harping on Hervey as the alternate son is stretching things a bit, since he was only 13 years younger than Caroline. But imo it's still possible that they fulfilled that emotional need for each other, and it's noticable that Caroline's actual other son and fave, future Billy the Butcher, Duke of Cumberland, gets next to no page time in these memoirs. He's at her death bed in one scene and gets told he's her sole hope for the British future, and there's just one mention elsewhere when both Hervey and the editor in footnotes discuss the periodically raised and abandoned idea of splitting Hannover and Great Britain up again so Billy the Butcher can inherit one of the two. But that's it. Methinks whatever is true of Caroline, I wouldn't be surprised if Hervey did come to see her as a replacement mother and that this provided him with additoinal ire fuel against Fritz of Wales. (Cumberland he couldn't rationally object to since he hadn't done anything at that point when Hervey writes, so he just edits him out as much as he can.)
Mind you, courtesy of Victorian editor Croker's footnotes, I got reminded again that G2 and Caroline for the first time considered the Britain/Hannover split when FoW really hadn't done anything yet they could object to but lived his parentless life in Hannover. They really wanted English born Bill for King, and if that was absolutely impossible, then they wanted him to have Hannover. So by the time Fritz of Wales rejoined the family in Britain as an adult, he already knew his parents very much prefered the younger brother he didn't even know. Incidentally, the reason why G2 and Caroline eventually didn't go through with this idea is one Hervey has himself pointing out to them - the Elector of Hannover is a prince of the HRE, which means the succession can only be altered with the Emperor's consent as well as the consent of the two princes in question (remember, this came up as to why FW couldn't change the succession without Fritz agreeing to it), and, speculates Hervey, the Emperor won't want to, because as long as the King of GB is also the Elector of Hannover, it means that Britain as a state is beholden to him.
(Sidenote: could be that MT's Dad was thinking that, but as we know, it didn't work out that way once G2's government teamed up with Fritz in 1756...)
I vote this Princess Emily and Princess Amalie of Prussia should get together!
They certainly would have had things in common. When reading this passage, I also rolled my eyes at Hervey none too subtly complaining he'd had to play the perfect courtier for G2 despite being worn out and exhausted from attending Caroline, yet otoh writing the story to demonstrate Emily's "falseness" towards her father. Of course, Emily isn't saying this to G2's face, any more than Amalie would say something like this to Fritz, for all her famous bluntness. You don't do that towards the person who has the power to lock you up in a heartbeat, or at the very least deprive you of income and all creature comforts.
Hervey on G2 and FW really was a goldmine of quotable lines. Never mind Zeithain and FW meeting August(us) the Strong, the summit we want to see is FW and G2 as adults clashing as a spectacle to all and sunder.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
(Sidenote: could be that MT's Dad was thinking that, but as we know, it didn't work out that way once G2's government teamed up with Fritz in 1756...)
Yeeeeahh. Turns out the Elector of Brandenburg wasn't all that beholden in 1740, and even in the 1730s, only sort of! (Ask Stanislaus.)
the summit we want to see is FW and G2 as adults clashing as a spectacle to all and sunder.
Would pay for tickets. Would bring popcorn.
Re: Hervey's Memoirs: King Lear's Family has nothing on this
*nods* That makes sense.
(Cumberland he couldn't rationally object to since he hadn't done anything at that point when Hervey writes, so he just edits him out as much as he can.)
Hee! Yeah, that makes sense too.
But, right, also given the circumstances I can see G2 and Caroline not really having parental feelings for Fritz of Wales, and not really seeing him as a kid of theirs, so any insults, etc. maybe didn't really register to them as all that bad (and then, as you pointed out earlier, there's the part where Caroline didn't exactly have good role models to begin with).
I also rolled my eyes at Hervey none too subtly complaining he'd had to play the perfect courtier for G2 despite being worn out and exhausted from attending Caroline, yet otoh writing the story to demonstrate Emily's "falseness" towards her father.
Ha! I didn't quite get there (I mostly just thought she had a point, lol) so I'm glad you pointed that out :)
Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
I haven't even made a draft of the promo post(s)! *facepalm* I'll see whether I can get around to that tonight... I'll try to nominate tonight as well but it might be later on in the week, though I'll of course comment once I've made my nominations, here and at the nomination coordination post.
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
So, seeing as the characters we nominated, except for Algarotti, are French and English, what do you say to „Franco-British Enlightenment“? „French.Enlightenment“ won‘t cover Lady Mary and Hervey, and I do want the title to reflect it‘s more than France as a location.
ETA: Hang on, we could narrow it down by profession: How about "European Scientists and Writers of the Enlightenment RPF"? (With Mme de Pompadour and Richelieu qualifying as patrons of same.)
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
I like it better than Franco-British, as I would love for it to be open to scientists/writers of other countries, like say Euler! :D
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Last year
I'd like to mention to them that we'd be more equipped this year to write something if they nominated Poniatowski again (they seem to request him pretty consistently), but I don't want to do this if there's no chance that anyone will write anything. (I think this mainly means
(I would also read the heck out of a Poniatowski fic, he is hilarious!)
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Oh, good! Horowski (at least in part--I'm not committing to reading cover-to-cover) is on my list, either after or concurrently with Lehndorff (who in turns comes after the remaining Wilhelmine material and the very short Krockow volume on Heinrich and Fritz).
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Re: Yuletide nominations are OPEN!
Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
No comments tonight, as it's my bedtime, and also
Good luck with the Enlightenment nominations, guys! Sorry I'm not more help, but, you know, German and sleep. #priorities But I'm following the developments and silently cheering you on.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
(What's more impressive is that I read those 50 pages between 4:30 and 9 pm, meaning much faster than ever before. I could have done more, but I didn't want to burn out.)
Wilhelmine and SD are at the ball and have just learned that Fritz tried to escape.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
(I also think the syntax is easier; I am still not really trying to read it, especially since I can't keep up with you if I even try to pick out bits, but I do feel like I can pick out more bits than I could in Ziebura.)
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Oh, good, I'm glad!
I'm also very interested in when you tell me which authors are easier than other authors; it's very hard for me to tell, because there are so many confounding variables, like my rapidly improving German, and the extent to which I already know the material. (Not having to parse the syntax and untangle the pronouns because I already know who did what to whom is huge.)
I'm hoping that reading Oster makes volume 2 of Wilhelmine's memoirs easier, which is why I decided to do it first. My entire approach to German is trying to make future reading easier, which is why the ordering of reading material is important, and why I'm starting with things you're interested in co-reading rather than the things that are
Katte relatedhighest on my own list. :)Speaking of which, are you interested in doing MT together, after Lehndorff? If so, I should probably order it now, to give it time to arrive (since the Kindle version isn't available in the US, grrr) and me to format ONE THOUSAND pages. Looks like the cheapest copy (which I can cover) would be coming from the UK.
MT
Speaking of which, are you interested in doing MT together, after Lehndorff? If so, I should probably order it now, to give it time to arrive (since the Kindle version isn't available in the US, grrr) and me to format ONE THOUSAND pages.
Yes pleeeeease! OMG I forgot that because I have a translator now, I don't have to wait for the translation (which I just checked and is still in translator limbo). Yay!
Re: MT
Oh, goody! I wasn't sure if me going, "read this thing with me!" "and also this other thing!" all the time at you ;) meant that you had too much on your plate now and weren't up for MT any more.
Because you were the one who said you might be interested in reading it together, back in June when we were plotting out our reading group. You said there wasn't much nonfic you were interested in reading in German, and then said you would be interested in MT. But then I proposed Lehndorff and got you to read Oster with me, and I didn't hear any more about MT, so I wasn't sure. But I kept it on my mental list, because I need a lot of German practice before I'm ready to start tackling things that I can't readily put through Google translate.
Ordered! Should arrive sometime in October. We'll probably end up doing it during Yuletide, but we can always go slowly, and I have Horowski to keep me in practice for German.
Also, I need to figure out just how bad a job Google OCR does at blackletter font, because I'm sure you'd like to read volume 2 of Lehndorff someday, maybe after Yuletide at this rate, and unlike volume 1, it hasn't been reprinted in modern font.
...Reading group is SO GREAT.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Currently we're at "Circle of Voltaire RPF", though I still think it's silly that past Yuletides in the last two years signed off on "19th Century German Literature RPF" (which in theory would have encompassed anyone from E.T.A. Hoffmann to Thomas Mann, who did start to publish before the century ended), and "19th Century British Writers RPF" (ditto, and did include Charles Dickens and Lewis Carroll as well as Byron and the Shelleys), i.e. an enormous amount of time, and a cast of thousands who don't have anything in common but geography, but "Enlightenment Writers and Scientists" is too broad. Ah well.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Kind of a moot point now, but would "Natural Philosophers" have fit the bill? I suppose Hervey not so much, but you might be able to make a slant case for Lady Mary given the inoculation stuff... But Circle of Voltaire is nice because we don't have to make a case for every single character being a natural philosopher, which I think we could do but would get tiresome.
...and now that I've read your defense, I think I should just co-opt that for the promo post! Because I think that should get anyone interested in this set of characters :)
The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
ETA: Morbane approved „Circle of Voltaire RPF“. Can you edit your nominations and our entries on the google spreadsheet accordingly?
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Selena, could you at some point put your Lord Hervey writeups in
ETA: I just want to say how AWESOME
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
I can do the LH writeup: I was going to do it when I was on my big Rheinsberg kick recently, but large chunks of new material kept coming in, so I thought I'd hold off a bit. ;)
[ETA: I just went to add the embassy letters to my Trello list of things to add to Rheinsberg, and the only item still there was "Hervey memoirs". See? It really is on my list!]
ETA: I just want to say how AWESOME
IKR? And let's be real, saying
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Rheinsberg coordination
Do you want to take the embassy letters too, or should I leave that on my list?
Speaking of letters, LM's 3-volume set of complete letters is arriving in a few days, though of course I neither expect you to read them cover-to-cover, nor is there any deadline. I mostly want them as a reference work, and also I'd like to dip into them sometime myself (probably when German settles down and I can read English without feeling like I'm in danger of losing my German). When I checked them out to scan the Algarotti letters last year, I flipped through and thought she seemed very engaging and having been wanting to spend some time with her ever since. :)
Re: Rheinsberg coordination
Tomorrow is our last day on vacation, with one more hiking to be done, and on Monday we return to Bamberg, so that means even less online time for yours truly!
Re: Rheinsberg coordination
The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
I'm not going to pick a fight in the Yuletide admin community, but let's not forget "Historical Royals and Their Favourites RPF", which the mods and a couple of us, myself included, arrived at after much discussion, for which the nominated characters included Alexander the Great (4th century BCE Macedon) and James VI and I (17th century CE Great Britain). 2000 years and an entire continent, and we went with a gender-neutral "royals" specifically to make sure women like Anne could get included if needed. I mean, we could have included Catherine and Poniatowksi for 18th century Russia! Gilgamesh and Enkidu, probably. :P
But all right, Circle of Voltaire it is. :D
Algarotti: *I'm* the one who's six degrees from everyone who even slightly overlaps the 1700-1799 period!
Voltaire: Nobody knows who you are. Even in the salon, nobody had heard of you before last year.
Algarotti: :(
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XO2D8BbqeafK29a7mB2AARN-r0xcdIxaz_AGdYg5-z0/edit?usp=sharing
I would have done it myself but I guess you have to ask the administrator for edit access and I have to get back on the VPN before school ends... But if you don't do it by tonight I can do it.
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
ETA: Still no edit access, alas. You're on your own!
Re: The artist formerly known as Enlightenment RPF
-- now, I'm not totally sure whether the spreadsheet editor is letting other random people edit (which is... probably wise). If you haven't got access by the time you wake up, then I expect it's not happening and one or more of us can report in an FFA or coaltide thread. Though honestly, I think it's OK if we don't report it -- we'll get the whole tagset in a few days!
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Oster: Well, Fritz won't be *happy*, exactly...
Me: :-(
* So remember when we discussed how Wilhelmine resented her first two brothers (named Fritz) and our Fritz was the first one she showed affection to? And
Well, Oster reports the following:
1707, November 23, 1707: Bb!Fritz1 born.
Barely six months later: Bb!Fritz1 dies. The internet gives me May 13, 1708.
1709, July 3: Wilhelmine born.
1710, August 16: Bb!Fritz2 born.
1711, July 31: Bb!Fritz2 dies.
1712, January 24: Bb!Fritz3 born.
1712, February 8: Grandpa F1 writes in a letter, "sie ihre zwei ersten Brüder nicht leiden konnte"--she couldn't stand her first two brothers.
What's wrong with this picture?
The first of the two brothers in question died before she was born!
What's up with that, F1? I can believe that she didn't like the one that was born when she was one and died when she was two, especially since he got all the attention that she didn't, but she's being falsely accused of things that happened before she was born!
I wonder if F1's having a memory lapse here, or if something else is going on.
* The bit about FW being impressed by Dutch burgher values, like cleanliness and orderliness, is relevant to why the servant book I read is specifically about servants in *France* during the period. The author makes the point that French upper class values were about conspicuous consumption, so servants did a lot of standing around in livery looking handsome and making you look wealthy, and very little attention in "how to run your household" manuals was devoted to things like making sure servants dusted and kept the fire going. So there was gold and marble and filth everywhere, and the living space was uncomfortable to live in but very eye-catching. French travelers who went to England or the Netherlands were amazed at how clean and comfortable the houses were, and the servants were actually supposed to take scrubbing the floors and such seriously.
* Heinrich Rüdiger von Ilgen: I'm recognizing more and more obscure names! This is the father of Baroness von Knyphausen, Ariane's mother, who receives that box from Fritz in the opening scene of "Lovers lying two and two."
Knyphausen, the minister who's pro-English marriage and eventually loses his job over it, is, as I said in the Wilhelmine memoir write-up recently, Ariane's father.
* Google wasn't able to translate "Knirps", as in "König Knirps", Wilhelmine and Fritz's not-so-respectful nickname for Dad, but when I put it in the browser, I got "midget, squirt, little fellow." Lol! The little fellow and his long fellows.
* Loved Oster pointing out what I had noticed when rereading the memoirs: evil governess Leti's introduction was all about how she was Italian, from no family to speak of, and had an unprestigious job correcting newspaper prints, whereas wonderful Sonsine's introduction is all about how noble her family was and how her ancestors distinguished themselves with all the services they performed. !!!
Lehndorff, who's not exactly not a snob himself: This Wilhelmine is a bit hung up on class.
This is why I put in two of the things that
Also, the servants book has a good section on the tension between servants and families that resulted in the cycle of abuse: badly treated servants were more likely to treat their masters' children badly. Including: total neglect, meaning wealthy kids were sometimes half-starved; sexual abuse: the older men in the house molest the maidservants, who molest the boys, who grow up with a fucked up attitude toward sex and proceed to molest their own servants.
As the century went on and middle-class family-and-home values started to percolate upwards in France, the thrust of moralizing works directed at servants charged with caring for children went in a little over a hundred years from "You are responsible before God for every child who dies as a result of your action or inaction," to, "It's probably not healthy to give kids everything they want all the time. Tell them no once in a while?"
* Oster doesn't think FW's kids went hungry, because Seckendorff didn't report inadequate portions. He thinks FW's tastes in food weren't to the liking of SD, who taught her kids to despise it. While I'm absolutely sure this happened, I'm not convinced the kids never went hungry, or that they didn't learn to associate it with their father.
Fritz's weight at Dresden, combined with his height, tell me he wasn't underweight at 16. But even if FW was starving the kids every chance he got (and I suspect it was more like small portion sizes than actual starvation), SD was apparently smuggling them food (I think this was in Lavisse?) *and* FW was away a lot. So it's quite possible that FW was frugal in terms of portion sizes and the kids got compensation later.
But that's not evidence that he *was*, just that he could have been.
The two additional pieces of evidence I have beyond Wilhelmine's memoirs are these:
Fritz writing a letter to Grumbkow (?) at Küstrin, saying he preferred to starve there than at Potsdam. Now, this is not when he's being his most fair to FW, and could be part of the SD "this is not acceptable food" rhetoric, but...
Ziebura says *AW* later said he and the other kids were often half-starved as kids. If Wilhelmine, Fritz, *and* AW all agree on something about FW...maybe they're not making it up. Now, I haven't seen the context, or even a direct quote, for that claim, but I'm keeping it as supporting evidence until I do.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
I wonder if F1's having a memory lapse here, or if something else is going on.
It probably was a memory lapse. My other guess would be projection, but projection of what? The baby Sophie Charlotte had before FW, one Friedrich August, died before FW was born, and she never had any more children. As for F1's own childhood, he was son no.3 himself, with two brothers ahead of him, one of whom died before F1 was born. (The other - Karl Emil! - was one of those he later suspected his stepmother of killing, along with his younger brother Ludwig. Two more (fullL) siblings died as babies. Then came stepmom and all the Schwedt half siblings.
"Knirps" is a bit old fashioned but still in use today, though mostly used for little children.
Wilhelmine the snob: oh, absolutely. Mind you, I suspect this tendency in her was strengthened via the awareness the Hohenzollern were considered as upstarts (what with the very recent kingly title) by the rest of Europe, and of course SD had it drummed into her that she was meant for higher things and FW was completely undignified and no one was to follow his example from the get go. I could also see child Wilhelmine extra internalizing class bias precisely because of Leti, i.e. this woman had been given power over her and abused her, and she clung to her self confidence by telling herself "I'm still better than you, Italian lowlife!"
Which, btw, leads into what you say about servants and the chains of abuse and neglect. Governesses also had this weird in between status - not really part of the servants, but also not really on a level with the family that gets talked about a lot in any book about the Brontes. Presumably Leti had had her own experiences, too. (And as Oster points out at the very least must have been well educated, because she did give Wilhelmine a first class education in terms of knowledge, see also the difference between child Wilhemine's letters to child AW's letters to FW in style and maturity.)
I'm also reminded that Byron (the poet) was sexually abused by a nurse when he was ten or eleven. She was also a strict Calvinist who altered between punishing him, groping him and quoting the bible at him. It's not surprising adult Byron didn't care much for religion, and scandalized the country.
Food question: I'm with you there.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Yeah, since F1 isn't exactly taking care of tiny babies, he probably remembers that Wilhelmine didn't like Bb!Fritz2, and of course the number 2 was burned into his brain, as in the number of prospective heirs that have died, and he conflated the two.
I'm just impressed that within the space of about a page, Oster manages to report all these dates and quote this letter and never notice the contradiction!
Wilhelmine the snob: oh, absolutely. Mind you, I suspect this tendency in her was strengthened via the awareness the Hohenzollern were considered as upstarts
Yep. I forget which biographer said FW's attitude toward all things German vs. French smacks of an inferiority complex, but it makes perfect sense.
I could also see child Wilhelmine extra internalizing class bias precisely because of Leti, i.e. this woman had been given power over her and abused her, and she clung to her self confidence by telling herself "I'm still better than you, Italian lowlife!"
Also makes perfect sense!
Governesses also had this weird in between status - not really part of the servants, but also not really on a level with the family that gets talked about a lot in any book about the Brontes.
Yep, I was thinking of the Brontes. Even today, my wife talks about the class tensions of being middle to upper middle class and being raised largely by poor nannies in Brazil, where labor is still that cheap. When you tell the kids what to do and can punish them, but they're still considered inherently superior to you, and their parents control your life...it can get complicated.
I'm glad Sonsine worked out.
Though after reading the memoirs, I had forgotten just how pro-English marriage Wilhelmine depicts her as being, to the point of scolding Wilhelmine for finally giving in and agreeing to marry into Bayreuth. :/
She was also a strict Calvinist who altered between punishing him, groping him and quoting the bible at him. It's not surprising adult Byron didn't care much for religion, and scandalized the country.
Indeed. Also, *facepalm*.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Mind you, the flipside of that is what a relation of one of Charlotte's charges said to Mrs. Gaskell: My cousin Benson Sidgwick, now vicar of Ashby Parva, certainly on one occasion threw a Bible at Miss Bronte! and all that another cousin can recollect of her is that if she was invited to walk to church with them, she thought she was being ordered about like a slave; if she was not invited, she imagined she was excluded from the family circle.
Sonsine being pro English marriage: well, to be fair, of all the matches available at that time, it was definitely the toppermost of the poppermost. The only comparable match would have been to Louis XV. of France, and good old Stanislav Lescynsky got there first. (P)RussianPete was still HolsteinPete in blissful ignorance of his future and also years younger, even Ulrike's future husband was still HolsteinAdolf and not yet Crown Prince of Sweden, and since the Polish crown wasn't inheritable but went by vote, there was no guarantee August the Strong's son - who'd have matched Wilhelmine's age far better than August - would have succeeded him as King of Poland as well as Elector of Saxony. If you were a Princess of Wilhelmine's age and generation, the future King of England (not that he'd ever be, but no one knew that) was the big marital price to be had. Especially if your own father was only the second king of his line and his tiny kingdom brandnew.
...whereas all the Margraves FW considered as matches for his daughters meant they were marrying down. Within FW's life time, Charlotte did best with a duke (of Braunschweig), lending some strength to the argument that among the daughters, she was his fave, but Wilhelmine, Friederike and Sophie really were not making good matches in terms of rank, power and splendor.
Byron: see my reply to Cahn below.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Oh, no question! And advocating for this as the marriage Wilhelmine should make is one thing. But after she's already agreed to marry into Bayreuth through the application of force majeure by the absolute monarch, scolding her that she did a bad thing tells you something about Sonsine's priorities. That's the part that came as a surprise to me.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - young Wilhelmine
Huh, I hadn't thought to make that connection, but having just read Dark Quartet, ...yeah.
I'm also reminded that Byron (the poet) was sexually abused by a nurse when he was ten or eleven. She was also a strict Calvinist who altered between punishing him, groping him and quoting the bible at him. It's not surprising adult Byron didn't care much for religion, and scandalized the country.
*blinks* My Brit Lit teacher didn't tell us that part! That's really... something. Definitely not surprising he didn't care much for religion, wow.
Byron
After Byron's death, the lawyer, John Hanson, informed Byron's friend John Cam Hobhouse, of the lustful attentions of his (Byron's) nurse. Hobhouse writes later:
When nine years old at his mother's house a free Scotch girl used to come to bed to him and play tricks with his person.
And Byron himself writes in Detached Thoughts (a serious of diary-like notes published years after his death under that title): in 1821:
My passions were developed very early - so early, that few would believe me, if I were to state the period, and the facts which accompanied it.
John Hanson informed Byron's mother of May Gray's unacceptable conduct towards the young lord in a letter dated 1st September 1799, suppressing his knowledge of the sexual play:
... her conduct towards your son while at Nottingham was shocking, and I was persuaded you needed but a hint of it to dismiss her... My honourable little companion (Byron) ... told me that she was perpetually beating him, and that his bones sometimes ached from it; that she brought all sorts of Company of the very lowest Description into his apartments; that she was out late at nights, and he was frequently left to put himself to bed; that she would take the Chaise-boys into the Chaise with her, and stopped at every little Ale-house to drink with them. But, Madam, this is not all, she has even --- traduced yourself. (Prothero, Rowland E (ed), The Works of Lord Byron, Letters and Journals, Vol I, p 17)
The two parter about Byron in which Johnny Lee Miller played Lord B. used this story - Byron tells it to his sister and lover Augusta (they were half siblings who didn't grow up together and only got to know each other as teenagers) in this excerpt (at 1.45) - at what is probably his most vulnerable moment in the two parter.
Re: Byron
My passions were developed very early - so early, that few would believe me, if I were to state the period, and the facts which accompanied it.
Yeah, that... is something. I can see how that would shape someone, a lot.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
* The Hannovers (Guelphs) had to make permission to visit Hannover one of their conditions for accepting the throne of GB. This is ringing a bell, but I'd forgotten that. I can see why it became a point of contention.
* In 1724/1725, the Magdeburgers brought some sort of lawsuit against FW at the Imperial Court? Do you know anything more about this,
* Lol, so we already knew Seckendorff sometimes couldn't write reports the next morning because of the insane hangover from keeping up with FW the night before, and we knew he used to suck on an empty pipe at the tobacco parliament, but it was entertaining reading Oster's write-up of how "the staunch non-smoker got permission to put an empty pipe in his mouth for form's sake," and how periodically Seckendorff had to go take the waters to recover a little from the hardcore job of being the most successful envoy at FW's court. This is why I maintain that if FW had wanted sex, Seckendorff would have done whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff.
Also, he lived to be 90, so I guess the lifestyle didn't ruin his health *too* much. :P
* Another minor character: Adrian Bernhard von Borcke is the father of FW2 educator Borcke.
* In July 1728, French Count Rottembourg says he has reason to believe Fritz will try running away. Now, my sources all say that he was recalled from Prussia in 1727 and stationed in Spain. So either he has contacts that are keeping him up to date, or Fritz was talking about running away even before that, or both.
* Speaking of running away...remember how on January 21, 1730 Peter got sent to Wesel and Fritz's governors got strict instructions to sleep with him every single night? And Koser said that the governor order was because FW feared Fritz trying to escape?
This is the first time I've seen evidence for that (as opposed to other types of nocturnal shenanigans) being the reason: on January 31, Oster says FW returns to Berlin, where all the envoys write reports expressing their surprise at how he's letting Fritz off with a mild scolding, in light of a recent anonymous letter FW received warning him that Fritz has escape plans. Proposed envoy reasons for this uncharacteristic behavior:
- This milder treatment is only apparent, not real.
- FW's trying the carrot instead of the stick.
- FW's trying to keep Fritz from encouraging Wilhelmine in her resistance to her prospective bridegrooms.
No dice on the last one, says Oster: Fritz is willing to suffer anything if it keeps Wilhelmine out of a miserable marriage! Oster will later quote the letter from Fritz to Wilhelmine saying, "Don't get married just to get me out of prison, I mean it."
Aaaand, Oster cites Fritz writing in 1730 to the Margrave of Schwedt that if he marries Wilhelmine, he'll "regret it sooner or later," the implication being when Fritz becomes king. This would fit well in a Mafia AU, along with "You know who we should kidnap, Heinrich?" :P
Poor younger sister Sophia Dorothea. :/
* SD trying to forestall a marriage she doesn't want by arguing that Wilhelmine's too young and will reproach her parents someday if she ends up unhappily married...that's pretty brazen, considering the quote at the beginning of the book where SD is writing about two-year-old FoW asking about his future bride, aka TWO-MONTH-OLD Wilhelmine.
* I like the way Oster analyzes "But did event X in Wilhelmine's memoirs *really* happen?" every so often I've been wondering what's backed up with documentary evidence and what isn't.
1) FW wanting to marry her to August the Strong: probably not, says Oster, no external evidence, and surely SD would freak out.
2) August the Strong trying to get Wilhelmine married to Weißenfels: definitely not, says Oster.
I was not aware that Weißenfels was a possible rival to the Saxon electorate due to religion, and that this might lie behind FW's interest in getting Wilhelmine married to him. That was interesting!
3) August letting his son decide he didn't want to marry Wilhelmine: seems unlikely, says Oster.
I mean, I'm sure there would have been pressure, but not everyone is FW? Even Wilhelmine got to turn down a couple candidates (at a high price) before accepting one under duress. I'm neutral on this point, pending further evidence...
* When Ferdinand was born and SD was bedridden, FW showed favor to Wilhelmine by letting her look after 4-yo Heinrich...who at the time was his favorite? What about AW?
Friedrich Wilhelms gute Laune ging an diesem Tag sogar so weit, daß er Wilhelmine auftrug, während Sophie Dorothea im Wochen bett lag, für ihren Bruder Heinrich zu sorgen, der damals sein Liebling war.
* Huh. So I did remember that the idea of Fritz becoming governor in Hannover until FW died was proposed as part of the marriage deal, but Oster adds that the British agreed to this, only instead of giving the governorship to Fritz, they would give it to
A WOMANAmelia!I take back what I said long ago about this marriage going better than the EC marriage.
Fritz: Franz Stephan, I am not. I'm also an expert in marital warfare even at this tender age. Bring it on.
* Also! G2 says that due to their youth, Fritz and Amelia would live in England at first. So I'm wrong, we *don't* need a successful escape AU in order to get Fritz at the British court while G2 and Caroline are accusing Wilhelmine of faking her pregnancy and FoW is trying to get her into a carriage to St. James in the presence of the brother who's perfectly willing to threaten her prospective husbands with vague but dire future consequences.
I wouldn't wish such a fate on Wilhelmine, but wooow, can you imagine Lord Hervey recording how this went down??
* Speaking of not wishing things on Wilhelmine, Oster says Melusine expressed pity for Wilhelmine as the future wife of FoW. I suppose our speculation about her being on good terms with FoW (politically, if nothing else) wouldn't rule out realizing he's not great husband material.
(I still can't believe that one lecturer thought she was a fictional character inspired by a Fontane novel; my copy of Zeithain has a Personenregister listing who everyone is and their dates, and she's in there!
EHRENGARD MELUSINE VON DER SCHULENBURG, Herzogin von Kendal (ab 1719), * 25.12.1667 in Emden; † 10.5.1743 in Kendal House, Isleworth bei Brentford, Mätresse von Georg I., König von England)
* Oster trusts Catt, sigh. Thanks be that you read prefaces,
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
At any event: why would Wilhelmine need to supervise Heinrich during SD's labor and ensueing lying-in anyway? That's what the staff is for. Heinrich having joined AW's household as of his fourth birthday in January, he wasn't even staying with his mother's household anymore. Note that in the letters from eight years old AW to FW which Cahn could read, which describe what the boys do all day, there's no mention of Mom or their oldest sister anywhere, just of Heinrich and their tutors.
Magdeburgers: would have to look it up.
SD trying to forestall a marriage she doesn't want by arguing that Wilhelmine's too young and will reproach her parents someday if she ends up unhappily married...that's pretty brazen, considering the quote at the beginning of the book where SD is writing about two-year-old FoW asking about his future bride, aka TWO-MONTH-OLD Wilhelmine.
No kidding. It really shows how soon she got fixated on that idea.
FW wanting to marry her to August the Strong: probably not, says Oster, no external evidence, and surely SD would freak out.
On the one hand, yes, on the other there's the Fritz letter from Dresden to Wilhelmine which gives her a "hot or not?" report on August the Strong. Now maybe it's just because Fritz assumes his sister would want to know more about their host, but date wise, it works with when the memoirs say the match was talked about, i.e. between FW's short lived "am gonna abdicate and live the true Christian life with my wife and daughters at Wusterhausen" idea and the Dresden visit. Maybe it wasn't as serious a possibility as she presents it in her memoirs, but what I do think is possible that Grumbkow, who was after all the FW/August liason, put it out there in some drunken rounds, and FW didn't immediately say no, which would have been enough for rumors to start and filter through to Wilhelmine and Fritz.
I take back what I said long ago about this marriage going better than the EC marriage.
Fritz: Franz Stephan, I am not. I'm also an expert in marital warfare even at this tender age. Bring it on.
LOL. And Amelia/Emily comes across as way more strong willed than EC, too. Mind you, her own experience with royal marriage would have been with Caroline managing G2 by pretending to worship to the ground he tread on but manipulating him into accepting all her ideas as his.
I wouldn't wish such a fate on Wilhelmine, but wooow, can you imagine Lord Hervey recording how this went down??
Quite. And Fritz of Prussia would have done him the favor of always talking in French when insulting the Hannover clan, too.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Oh, right! I'd forgotten that, but yes. Okay, that makes sense.
So unless Oster provides a different source citation for the anecdote - say, an ambassadorial report (by Guy Dickens or Hotham the older, presumably), I'm going with my "faith in Catt strikes again" guess.
I...I can't tell. Here's the passage:
In dieser Atmosphäre konnte es sogar Wilhelmine wagen, ihrem Vater wieder unter die Augen zu treten, nachdem ihr Brief dessen Zorn bereits hatte erweichen lassen. Auch diese Szene hat der braunschweigische Gesandte am 4. März geschildert: »Wie sie nun ... hereingerufen, habe sich die älteste Prinzessin zu des Königs Füßen geworfen und selbe umfasset; da sie der König bei die Hand genommen und aufstehen heißen. Als sie aber dem König die Hand küssen wollte, war ihr solches resusiret [verwehrt], die Königin ihr darauf einen Wink gebend, war sie [Wilhelmine] dem Könige um den Hals gefallen und ihn geküsset, dabei sagend: ›Papa hat eine Ungnade auf mich geworfen, so mir länger unerträglich fällt. Ich bitte kindlich, Papa lasse mir doch die vorige Gnade wieder verspüren‹; welche Worte die Prinzessin bei Vergießung vieler Tränen hervorgebracht ... Der König habe darauf wieder versetzet: ›Es ist nun alles gut, Wilhelmine, du bist allemal meine liebe Tochter.‹« Friedrich Wilhelms gute Laune ging an diesem Tag sogar so weit, daß er Wilhelmine auftrug, während Sophie Dorothea im Wochen bett lag, für ihren Bruder Heinrich zu sorgen, der damals sein Liebling war. »Hieraus nun will man schließen, daß die Versöhnung zwischen dem Könige und der Prinzessin ihre Richtigkeit habe.«
The bit about taking care of Heinrich and Heinrich being the favorite aren't in the direct quote. But if they're from Catt and not the envoy, then the "Hieraus" is very misleading, to say the least. So the taking care of Heinrich story looks like it must come from the Brunswick envoy, even if the "he was the favorite" could possibly be an addendum from Catt.
Brunswick envoy on March 4: "Touching reconciliation between Wilhelmine and FW, everybody cries," in direct quote from the envoy report.
End direct quote.
Oster adds that FW is in such a good mood that he tells Wilhelmine, while SD is in childbed, to take care of Heinrich, who at the time was his favorite.
Resume Brunswick envoy direct quote: "From this, we can [or "we'd like to"?] conclude that the reconciliation between the King and Princess is real." [I'm taking "ihre Richtigkeit habe" to mean "has veracity," i.e. "is real," and the context to be the fact that just in the last month, the envoys have been writing home, "Is FW really being nice to Fritz, or is this just a show for our benefit?"]
So while I don't remember this anecdote from the memoirs, to answer
I also don't remember this anecdote from Catt, which is not to say it's not there, though I do remember Heinrich being the favorite, now that I'm reminded.
[ETA: Though I should add that I do remember, if my memory isn't faulty, a very similar episode earlier in the memoirs in which Wilhelmine was given charge of a different younger sibling or siblings. I will need to look that up.]
say, an ambassadorial report (by Guy Dickens or Hotham the older, presumably)
Oster actually quotes a lot from Stratemann, the Brunswick envoy, whom I didn't know about. As I said, there's a lot of good, new-to-me information in this book, and I'm glad I'm reading it!
At any event: why would Wilhelmine need to supervise Heinrich during SD's labor and ensueing lying-in anyway? That's what the staff is for. Heinrich having joined AW's household as of his fourth birthday in January, he wasn't even staying with his mother's household anymore.
Honorary position just to show that she's in favor again? I'm not sure, I was wondering this myself. And yes, I did wonder how this worked with him being in AW's household now.
Good question!
Magdeburgers: would have to look it up.
Please do, when you get the chance (I know you're traveling), and let me know where you find it, if you do. I'm interested in this sort of thing, and my admittedly cursory Google didn't turn anything up. If I have time, I might do a more thorough Googling.
On the one hand, yes, on the other there's the Fritz letter from Dresden to Wilhelmine which gives her a "hot or not?" report on August the Strong.
Oh, right! I'm so glad there are two of us: I remember the things you forget, and you remember the things I forget. :D
Maybe it wasn't as serious a possibility as she presents it in her memoirs, but what I do think is possible that Grumbkow, who was after all the FW/August liason, put it out there in some drunken rounds, and FW didn't immediately say no, which would have been enough for rumors to start and filter through to Wilhelmine and Fritz.
This makes total sense.
And Amelia/Emily comes across as way more strong willed than EC, too.
Right? I mean, most people who aren't Louise do, but seriously. Powder keg, lit fuse...disaster waiting to happen.
Mind you, her own experience with royal marriage would have been with Caroline managing G2 by pretending to worship to the ground he tread on but manipulating him into accepting all her ideas as his.
Sadly, as much as Fritz has a praise kink, I have my doubts about her chances of success.
And Fritz of Prussia would have done him the favor of always talking in French when insulting the Hannover clan, too.
*snort*
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
More seriously, given AW gets Fritz' regiment toute suite that year and is made Colonel, and we have sunny letters to Dad which Ziebura quotes, I'm not sure what would have made FW temporarily rearrange his favourites children list. I mean, he was in a spectacularly bad mood for much of the year as well, as amply documented in the Fritzian context, so he may not have needed a reason, but it would still be very surprising, especially since Heinrich doesn't rate individual instructions to his stewards but is lumped under "the young princes" together with Ferdinand, and I'm sure that if Ziebura had found an FW remark especially about Heinrich indicating favor, she'd have quoted it, having gone through not just the published but the unpublished family correspondance at the state archive. Usually if you like a kid best, you talk about said kid. Not to mention that apparantly we have letters from Wilhelmine, from Fritz, from Charlotte and from AW to FW in the archive, all of which I've seen quoted, but not from child Heinrich. At a guess, if a letter from child!Wilhelmine survives in which she sends Dad her drawn tooth, a letter from temporary fave Heinrich would have been preserved as well, if such a letter had existed.
All this said: as long as they are babies and toddlers, the youngest children of a large family tend to be either neglected or spoiled, no? Maybe FW not getting along with his oldest kids at all in 1730 translated into liking the baby (until new baby Ferdinand was born) but not so much anymore once he grew older and developed a (suspiciously Fritz like) personality. That's always assuming the Brunswick envoy did report this, as opposed to Oster getting his info from Catt.
Magdeburgers: well, I seem to recall we have the two part FW biography in the library? I haven't braved that one yet, but it could be in there.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Great minds think alike! A quick glance through Oster when I was doing that write-up didn't show me what the source for Stratemann is, nor have I googled, but those items are on my to-do list.
Also, like you so often said, Mildred: the envoys are where it's at! :)
Also exactly what I was thinking when I realized we have a new envoy!
Maybe FW not getting along with his oldest kids at all in 1730 translated into liking the baby (until new baby Ferdinand was born) but not so much anymore once he grew older and developed a (suspiciously Fritz like) personality.
Maybe? And as you've pointed out, AW was Heinrich's hero, so maybe FW heard about how Heinrich just adored his new roommate and looked up to him in everything, and FW thought, "That boy's going places!" (He is, just not in the way you might think, FW.)
Magdeburgers: well, I seem to recall we have the two part FW biography in the library? I haven't braved that one yet, but it could be in there.
Oh, Förster, you're right! Hmm, I've put "Förster detective work" on my to-do list, assuming you don't get around to "Förster write-up from the royal reader" first. ;)
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Update: a 300-page volume of envoy reports from Stratemann for 1728-1733 (sweeeet!) has been obtained, and will be uploaded to the library when I wake up. :)
Fingers crossed I can get volume 3 of the Lady Mary letters after receiving a duplicate copy of volume 1 today, because it was only $13, and the next cheapest copy is like $40. Awaiting word from the bookseller. Volumes 1-2 are safely in hand, and will be digitized and uploaded at some point.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
I was not misremembering! This passage is from 1725, so the year Wilhelmine turned 16:
In the mean time I was at Berlin in great favour with the king: I passed every afternoon in conversation with him, and he used to sup in my room. He even shewed me some confidence, and often spoke of state affairs. To give me a still greater mark of distinction, he ordered me to hold a drawing-room like the queen. The governesses of my sisters were placed under my command, and had orders not to stir a step without my knowledge. I did not abuse the king’s favour. Young as I was, there was as much solidity in my conduct then, as there can be now ; and I might have superintended the education of my sisters: but I did myself justice, and clearly perceived that it did not become me; neither would I hold a drawing room. I contented myself with inviting a few ladies every day.
So I think it's possible we'll find Heinrich in her care in the Stratemann volume tomorrow.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
FW allows all to enter, enter they do, he's greeted but refuses to give Wilhelmine his hand to kiss because he's still angry. SD gives Wilhelmine a signal, Wilhelmine puts her arms around FW's neck, cries and pleads for him to show her his grace again, he says "It is alright, Wilhelmine, you are my dear daughter".
In the evening, the kids all dine in the antechambre, FW keeps going between the antechambre and SD's bedroom and:
Des Abends hatten alle Königliche Kinder in der VorCammer speisen müssen, da der König zwischen der Königinn Bette und solcher Tafel beständig, unter lieblichen Anreden, spazieren gangen; und wie Se. Majestät angemercket, daß der kleinste Prinz Heinrich
geweint, und nach der Ursache gefraget, der Cron-Printz auch darauf geantwortet: daß sein Bruder von den Fischen eßen wollte, so man Ihm gegen die Nacht zu geben weigerte; hatte der König zu der ältesten Prinzeß gesaget: Wilhelmine! gib du Ihm nur ein wenig und will ich dir hiermit aufgetragen haben: daß du, so lange Mama krank ist, Sorge vor Heinrichen trägest. Hieraus nun will man schließen, daß die Versöhnung zwischen dem Könige und der Prinzeß ihre Richtigkeit habe, da sonst der König, wegen Ihr angetragener aber von Ihr refusierter sichern Mariage mit Ihr in einigen Wochen nicht sprechen wollen; woher dann auch der lieben Königinn Maladie wohl guten Theils ihren Ursprung genommen haben mag.
From the Rokoko German (he's a Braunschweig envoy and apparantly not fluent in French, he writes German): "...and when his majesty noticed that the smallest Prince, Heinrich, was crying, and asked for the cause, the Crown Prince replied that his brother had wanted to eat from the fish which had been refused to him to eat in the evening; then the King told the oldest Princess: Wilhelmine! do give him a bit, and I want to charge you to look after Heinrich as long as Mama is still so ill. From this, one wants to conclude that the reconciliation between the King and the Princess is for real, for otherwise the King due to the marriage she'd been offered and she'd had refused had himself refused to speak to her for several weeks now; which may have been the cause of the malady of the dear queen.
Stratmann doesn't claim to have been present, he has it from court gossip. But he does report it minus designating Heinrich as FW's fave, so I'm still going with Oster having that from Catt.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
this Ambassador has a lot about AW earlier just by name searching, FW is even supposed to have given AW Wusterhausen, and organizes special fireworks for him, AW is described as his firm favourite
Sounds like another valuable envoy for us. :)
Stratmann doesn't claim to have been present, he has it from court gossip. But he does report it minus designating Heinrich as FW's fave, so I'm still going with Oster having that from Catt.
Yep, I bet that's it.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Fritz: Though did anyone notice my statement was the reason why the brat got his bloody fish? And did he say thank you? Ha. Gratitude and Heinrich were strangers from the beginning.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
HRE politics
I was busy looking into this, and I still haven't found it, but what I did find was very interesting.
Brandenburg had possessed the expectation of certain limited rights in Limpurg since 1693...When the last count died in August 1713 without male heirs, Brandenburg-Prussia occupied the territory. This prompted the widowed countess to appeal to the Reichshofrat to secure the continued autonomous existence of the county. The Reichshofrat subsequently sent the Emperor a report, which related that 'Prussia invaded the Limpurg lands with a whole battalion, and even failed to spare the widowed countess’s castle from being occupied by soldiers.'
Citation: "Imperial law versus geopolitical interest: the Reichshofrat and the protection of smaller states in the Holy Roman Empire under Charles VI (1711-40)", Patrick Milton, a heavily footnoted academic paper from 2015 with primary source citations (including envoy reports), available here.
ignoring legal female heir
ignoring legal female heir
The difference being that FW recognized imperial authority and grudgingly backed down when the Reichshofrat told him to. I guess he *didn't* start a war of aggression over it.
But yeeeeeah. Between this and FW's decision to go to war to get Swedish Pomerania in 1715, I'm at least half side-eyeing that political testament.
ETA: This table looks so much better in preview. Sigh.
Re: HRE politics
Förster then says that FW ignored the court, and since the Emperor at this point wanted him as an ally he let it pass and let the Magdeburg nobility fend for themselves, which means they caved and paid their horsetaxes. BTW, looking for this, I also came across Förster, writing in 1832, believing in the evil Catholic conspiracy to marry Fritz to MT (or her sister), which our hero escaped due to his and FW's integrity.
(Gr. = Groschen. Pf: Pfennige. Th. = Taler.)
In dem Herzogthume Magdeburg wurde die Contribution aus einer Menge verschiedener Auflagen und Steuern erhoben. 1) Von dem Scheffel Aussaat wurden nach der verschiedenen Güte des Bodens gezahlt: 10 Pf., 7 Pf., 5 Pf, 2 Pf.
2) Giebel- und Häuſerschoß nach der Größe der Bauernhöfe, Kossäthen-Tagelöhnerhäuſer monatlich 16 Gr., 12 Gr., 8 Gr.,
6 Gr. und 4 Gr. 3) Von Gärten-, Wiesen-, Holz-, Mast-, Fischerei-, Hopfen-, Rohr-, Weinbergs-, Steinbruchs-, Zehnten-, Brau-, Salz- c. Nutzung von jedem gewonnenen Thaler 1 Gr. zur Contribution. 4) Viehsteuer: von einem Pferde jährlich im guten Lande 16 Gr., im Sandlande 8 Gr., von jedem Ochsen, jeder Kuh 6 Gr., jedem Rinde 2 Gr., jedem Schafe 1 Gr. 5) Tranksteuer oder Consumtions-Accise auf dem Lande, von jedem Faß inländischen Bier 12 Gr., von dem aus anderen königlichen Provinzen 1 Thaler. 6 Gr., von ausländischem 2 Thaler.
Auf die Hufen geschlagen betrug die Contribution hier 16 Thaler. 21 Gr. 5 Pf, für die Hufe.
Gegen die Einführung der Lehnpferdegelder sträubte sich die magdeburgische Ritterschaft, und da der König mit Gewalt einschritt und Execution anordnete, verklagten ihn die Betheiligten bei dem Reichshofrathe in Wien. Dieser erkannte zu Gunsten der Edelleute, und der Kaiser drohte sogar, gegen den König die Reichs-Execution anzuordnen, im Fall er sich nicht dem Ausspruch des Reichshofraths fügen würde. Dieser Prozeß zog sich sehr in die Länge und machte dem Könige vielen Verdruß. In der Instruktion für das General-Directorium vom 20. December 1722 befiehlt er daher dem königlichen Commissariat in Magdeburg: »diesen renitirenden Edelleuten allerhand Chicanen zu machen und ihnen solchergestalt den Kitzel zu vertreiben, gegen ihren angebornen Landesherrn und ihre Obrigkeit dergleichen frevelhaftes und gottloses Beginnen weiter zu gedenken, geschweige denn selbiges wirklich vorzunehmen und auszuführen, « – Über das , von dem Reichshofrathe in dieser Sache gefällte, Urtheil beklagt sich der König bitter in einem Briefe an den Grafen Seckendorf, vom 7. April1725. (*) »Der Reichshofrath – schreibt er – hat mich aufs Neue condemnirt, daß ich alles, was ich zur Bezahlung ermeldeter Lehnsrecognition von diesen, meinen rebellischen magdeburgschen, Edelleuten habe beitreiben lasen cum omni causa ihnen zurückgeben und ferner deshalb von ihnen nichts fordern soll. Der Reichshofrath hat ferner resolvirt, daß die Könige von Polen und Schweden, samt dem oberrheinischen Kreise solche Resolution wider mich zur Execution bringen, und wenn ich mich widersetzen wollte, die schwäbischen, fränkischen und niederrheinischen Kreise dabei mit aller Macht wider mich assistieren sollten, daß also beinahe das ganze Reich in die Waffen und wirkliche Action gegen mich zu treten engagirt wird und solches um bloßer 40 Thlr. willen, die ein jeder von den widerspenstigen Vasallen von seinem Ritterpferd mir jährlich zahlen soll. – Hierdurch werde ich aber bei allen meinen Unterthanen in dem höchsten Grade prostituiert und
außer allem Respect gesetzt, so dieselben für mich, als ihre Landesobrigkeit haben sollen und lasse ich den Herrn Grafen selbst urtheilen, ob man wohl härter und grausamer mit mir umgehen könnte,wenn ich den Degen wider den Kaiser selbst gezogen, auch mit seinen und den Reichsfeinden ein offenbares Complot gemacht hätte, das ganze Reich feindlich zu überfallen und über den Haufen zu werfen.« Der König achtete indessen nicht weiter auf die Aussprüche des Reichshofrathes, und da der Kaiser damals an Friedrich Wilhelm einen Bundesgenossen zu gewinnen wünschte, wurde die magdeburgische Ritterschaft ihrem Schicksale überlassen und mußte die Lehnpferdegelder zahlen.
Re: HRE politics
I have a related article, on Austria and Prussia in the Imperial Diet 1745-1763, that looks interesting, but I'm waiting on Royal Patron for the download.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - marriage negotiations
Ha! I thought that was funny too :)
This is why I maintain that if FW had wanted sex, Seckendorff would have done whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff.
Would read! :)
SD trying to forestall a marriage she doesn't want by arguing that Wilhelmine's too young and will reproach her parents someday if she ends up unhappily married...that's pretty brazen, considering the quote at the beginning of the book where SD is writing about two-year-old FoW asking about his future bride, aka TWO-MONTH-OLD Wilhelmine.
Ha! I didn't catch that, but I should have :)
I wouldn't wish such a fate on Wilhelmine, but wooow, can you imagine Lord Hervey recording how this went down??
Would definitely read! :D
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Particularly this letter:
"Everyone's nice to me here, Dad! It would be great, except I miss you so much. Please send $$$, renovations desperately needed."
None of that strikes me as either something that should be taken at face value or as counterevidence to the memoirs.
Also, lol at imagining that letter being written by Wilhelmine the modern AU college student. :P
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18 more pages, Wilhelmine has returned from the 1732-1733 visit to Berlin and sworn never to go back. Her husband is being totally adorable gushing over their kid.
Comments will have to wait.
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Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
And unlike selenak, this probably doesn't mean I'm going to have lots of amazing reading comments posted
Also, this. Whenever she's like, "I have insomnia, so here's a write-up of a book I just read," I'm like, "I wish my insomnia worked like that." With me, it's like, "I have insomnia, so I'm temporarily illiterate, expect nothing." :P
Detective work I can do on minimal sleep, though; it's kind of amazing the difference between reading and googling. That's exactly why I've been detective and not reader the last year. (I'm having some luck beating my sleep into submission, but it's going to be a ongoing process with fluctuations, we're not there yet.)
All of which is to say,
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Detective work I can do on minimal sleep, though; it's kind of amazing the difference between reading and googling.
Ha! Both of you are amazing on minimal sleep :) Whereas when I'm on minimal sleep I can read fiction just fine, and ramble on about it, and while that's useful for DW it's not very useful for salon. Oh, but that reminds me: tomorrow I can check out the second Dark Quartet book :D
(I'm having some luck beating my sleep into submission, but it's going to be a ongoing process with fluctuations, we're not there yet.)
Yay!! Not just for salon, that sounds like it will just improve your quality of life in a ton of different ways.
All of which is to say, [personal profile] selenak is an international treasure. <3 And also, magical alchemy is the best.
Yes, both of these! :D
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Totally unrelated to anything, but I ran across this today and couldn't resist sharing with you guys. It's a comment exchange from the only fic on AO3 tagged Peter Keith that wasn't written by or for me:
Commenter: Actually it is the first time that I read a Friedrich II von Preußen's fic and I truly enjoy it, you let such a powerful and talented man become more colorful and adorable. And there is a funny thing that the way we translate his name(腓特烈) into Chinese is different from other Friedrichs(弗里德里希) haha,as he was of high authority, maybe.😂
Author: wow, this is interesting. I mean, he's not the only king named Friedrich in history xD but I guess he's still considered kinda Special nowadays <3 and well, he's my Baby xD so I appreciate it
Der Einzige strikes again! Even in China.
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The Margrave has just recovered from being sick and has started to notice Marwitz, uh oh.
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Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Comments this weekend! You can now see that detective work, mostly Stratemann and Keith related, has taken up most of my week (plus it was an unusually busy week at work--gradually improving my sleep has meant more time at work and less time for salon. But also money to buy books! Which reminds me, I need to scan the 2 volumes of LM letters we do have.)
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - 1730s
* That letter where Charles VI asks FW to not kill his son? Oster says Seckendorff only handed it over when the pardon was a done deal. Because it's Seckendorff, I believe it, but I'd like to see a citation.
* FW asking the preachers whether a father can force his daughter to get married: apparently one said yes! The preacher of the Garrison Church in Potsdam. (Where both FW and Fritz would be buried until Nazi times, if I'm remembering correctly.)
* Contra Wilhelmine's memoirs, Oster doesn't think that SD proposed the future Margrave of Bayreuth as a possible match, not even as a decoy.
* Oster has the "don't get married just to get me out of prison" letter, AWWW. I still love the mutual self-sacrifice between these two. YOU TWO. <3
* Oh, the future Margrave's regiment later got renamed the Ansbach-Bayreuther dragoons! I was *wondering* where that name came from. Duuuh.
At this point the Prussian Bayreuth Dragoons, an oversize unit numbering around 1,500 men, entered the battle. A strong gust of wind blew away the powder smoke and the dust and revealed an opening in the Austrian lines through which to charge the vulnerable Austrian infantry. The dragoons deployed into line, and attacked north against the right flank of the first Austrian line. They drove all the way along that line, routing it completely, then turned south to destroy the second Austrian line.
The Austrians, already outnumbered, abandoned by their Saxon allies, without cavalry protection, and now broken by this attack, began to surrender en masse. The Bayreuth Dragoons defeated several thousand Austrian infantry and only suffered 94 casualties. The Dragoons overran twenty battalions, took 2,500 prisoners, capturing 67 flags and standards as well as four cannons in what is considered and celebrated as one of the great cavalry battlefield triumphs. The battle ended with the complete defeat of the Austro-Saxon army.
* Lol at SD protecting her girls' delicate ears from dirty sexual jokes.
* FW on his boar hunt: We're going to kill a bunch of pigs and everyone has to buy the meat! Especially if you're Jewish.
Sigh. Less expensive and more offensive than Fritz making them buy porcelain, I guess.
* Oster on Wilhelmine bringing Marwitz to Bayreuth: Little did she know that this girl would one day ruin her marriage.
That's right, blame the woman.
* Fritz writing to Wilhelmine after her wedding: "When I see you, you will again find the brother who dares [emphasis mine] to show you tenderness." Everybody stop being so hard on him for the wedding! We have the letter from Grumbkow telling him to set boundaries! There are plenty of other things to be hard on Fritz for, you won't have to do without.
* Schwager: I keep seeing this word used, not just for what I would call a brother-in-law, but also for the relationship between the FW and Wilhelmine's father-in-law, for which English has no single word. So German 1) actually has a word for that relationship, 2) it's the same as brother-in-law?
* Fritz in 1732: Can I go to Bayreuth with you, Dad? Can I can I can I?
Oster: The memory of the last trip FW had taken through south Germany with Fritz was too fresh...
I bet.
* Lol at the whole *drama* over Wilhelmine's daughter's baptism. I'm sorry you're being born into a dysfunctional family, little Friederike! [
* Fritz was godfather! Aww, I had either forgotten that or not known it. But of course he was.
* Fritz on October 19, 1732: If I could make gold, I would first use my knowledge to help out Wilhelmine.
If you could make gold, huh? I wonder if Fritz talked about making gold before 1732, or if we're seeing traces of Fredersdorf here.
* Speaking of Fritz and Fredersdorf, as we head into Christmas 1732, Fritz had been visiting FW at Wusterhausen before Wilhelmine arrived! I had missed that and assumed it was the first visit in a while, and wrote accordingly. Oh well! Fanfic takes liberties with chronology.
* This part, though, zomg:
Fritz to Wilhelmine: Don't bring too many servants, or Dad will fire them, and don't bring your musician right away. Let him come later, and don't let anyone find out he belongs to you.
THAT part of our fics was spot on! Wow, I didn't realize
Also,
Nimm nicht viel Dienerschaft mit, denn er willdaran streichen
I'm assuming "streichen" is "remove", not, as Google hilariously translated it, "paint". Though Fredersdorf is nearly tall enough to get painted!
* Another thing I got wrong that I will pretend was intentional conflation of minor characters: the Sonsfeld who takes care of little Friederike while Wilhelmine is in Berlin is not Sonsine the much loved, but her inexperienced sister who's like, "Halp, a baby, what do?" Or at least so Wilhelmine claims in her letter to try to get money for a proper nurse--I hope that was partly a rhetorical device!
* Fritz is disillusioned with the English and "hates everything English."
Lehndorff: :-(
* Judging by the letters and not the memoirs, Fritz had already left for his regiment when the German comedian episode happened, because Wilhelmine reports to him on it.
THAT is one chronological liberty I will stand and die by! Besides, we were writing fanfic of her memoirs. :P
* Fritz of Bayreuth: *loves his baby*
Fritz of Bayreuth: Please don't tell your sarcastic brother-in-law.
Wilhelmine to Fritz: Please tease my husband about this.
Okay, Wilhelmine?
* Wilhelmine: Dr. Superville saved my husband after a stroke! I will take this opportunity to note that he is of French extraction and comes from a good family.
* Superville on Fritz in 1739: much wit/spirit/intelligence, but a bad heart and a terrible character. He's suspicious, stubborn, excessive, selfish, ungrateful, vicious, and unless I'm very much mistaken, will someday be even stingier than his father.
Oster: He's not wrong.
Me: Well spotted in 1739! Here's one person who wasn't caught off guard in 1740.
* Wilhelmine and the Margrave set off for Italy and France in 1739! This is not ringing a bell at ALL! Wow.
That sucks that it didn't work out and they had to wait another 15 years, at which point she was very sick. :( :( :( I'm glad she was healthy enough to enjoy it, at least.
* Per Oster, Wilhelmine knew about her husband/Marwitz in 1739, but Fritz didn't.
* Oh, something I forgot to mention from the earliest pages:
Daß die Akademie der Wissenschaften unter Friedrich Wilhelm I. für die Bezahlung der Hofnarren zuständig war, sagt eigentlich alles.
That the court fool was responsible for the Academy of Sciences under FW really says it all.
Things like this are why I had *no* concept of Gundling as anything *but* the court fool until
:(
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - 1730s
Schwager: I keep seeing this word used, not just for what I would call a brother-in-law, but also for the relationship between the FW and Wilhelmine's father-in-law, for which English has no single word. So German 1) actually has a word for that relationship, 2) it's the same as brother-in-law?
It usually means "brother-in-law", but in old fashioned German, it used to mean any male in-law, which the old Margrave was.
Wilhelmine's daughter did go by "Friederike". And I did translate Wilhelmine's letter about her husband being adorable about the baby for you back in the day. :) Fritz as godfather: alas he wasn't a good one, in the sense that he actually did something for the girl. Now part of it was that he didn't see her often, due to geography (what with her living either in Franconia with her parents or in Swabia with her husband), and she didn't visit Berlin a lot. (Enough to impress Lehndorff with her beauty, though.) But Fritz quite openly writes to Wilhelmine in the 1750s, when she's fretting about her daughter's marriage, that "the only interest I have in your daughter is because of her mother". Exchanges between Fritz and Wilhelmine about adult Friederike tend to go thusly:
W: Visiting Stuttgart right now. My son-in-law is incredibly jealous and possessive re: my daughter. I think it's creepy, and doesn't bode well for how the marriage will go if the honeymoon era is over.
F: Eh, isn't it good if a young bride has her husband's undivided attention? Your daughter should count herself lucky.
W: Visiting Stuttgart again. Now he's having favourites.
F: Men will be men. I knew he was like that when he was still growing up at my court.
W: I've heard a rumor the Duke is secretly considering converting to Catholicism like his father and will make my daughter do the same. Please advise?
F: Your daughter converting to Catholicism is a no-go. She's the Duchess in a Protestant principality where people hated the last Duke's guts for converting. Since her marriage is not going well, her being Protestant is all she has to assure herself of being in the public favor, and that can be useful to her if her husband turns more against her.
W: Thanks, that's actually good ad....
F: Also I need Würtemberg to continue as my ally, not MT's, so your daughter better ensure her husband doesn't convert.
Daß die Akademie der Wissenschaften unter Friedrich Wilhelm I. für die Bezahlung der Hofnarren zuständig war, sagt eigentlich alles.
That the court fool was responsible for the Academy of Sciences under FW really says it all.
That's the wrong translation, though. "That the Academy of the Sciences under FW was responsible for paying the court fools (plural) salaries says it all."
I mean, the general meaning in the larger context presumably is still the same, re: the standing of the academy in FW's time, but in the interest of your German, I clarified.
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Aahhh. Thank you!
And I did translate Wilhelmine's letter about her husband being adorable about the baby for you back in the day.
I indeed remembered the adorable good father part, but not the part where he told Wilhelmine not to tell and Wilhelmine promptly told.
But Fritz quite openly writes to Wilhelmine in the 1750s, when she's fretting about her daughter's marriage, that "the only interest I have in your daughter is because of her mother".
Oh, yes, I remember how he was, and my "awww" was 100% about Wilhelmine/Fritz feels at the time of the birth, not about his A+ godparenting/uncle-ing later in life.
Thank you for the German correction! The problem with my German at this point is that I can figure things like this out...if I'm willing to work for them. And in this case, I was typing fast and translating from a very faded memory, instead of rereading. (I.e. I'm pretty sure I got it when actually reading it a couple weeks ago.) My goal is to get to the point where the meaning jumps off the page at me!
Keep the corrections coming. :)
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Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - 1740s
* Wilhelmine may have expected Fritz to summon her straight to Berlin after he became king. I've always been surprised that he didn't! Even before I knew that she spent several months there immediately after her daughter was born. I would be interested to hear the
Also, lol at Oster saying the trip to Strasbourg was for political purposes. The rest of the trip, yes. Strasbourg?
Fritz: It is very important that Europe be prepared for my willingness to cross borders illegally.
:P
* Bei dieser Lebensweise verfliegt die Zeit so rasch, daß ich wünschte, die Tage hätten 24 Stunden.
They don't? Does this mean "waking hours" in German or something?
* Oster has the "there stands one who will avenge me" quote!
* War starts, and Wilhelmine is very encouraging to the Austrian envoy and says that she wishes Fritz hadn't invaded, that Bayreuth will not fight on his side, and that they will remain loyal to MT. That's more than just lunch!
* Wilhelmine and Margrave: Hey, if it's asserting old claims time, maybe we can get Nuremberg for Bayreuth!
Fritz: I would advise against.
Wilhelmine and Margrave: ???
Macaulay: His first object was to rob the Queen of Hungary. His second was that, if possible, nobody should rob her but himself.
* Fritz: You should totally fight on my side!
Wilhelmine and Margrave: We made an alliance against the Habsburgs!
Fritz: Too late, I already made a separate peace. Allies gotta fend for themselves.
Wilhelmine and Margrave: ???
Fritz: *kicks off the Second Silesian War*
MT: What about that peace?
Fritz: Allies need me!
Oster: "The accusations of faithlessness bounced right off him."
15-yo Mildred: My FAVE. :D :D :D
Superville: See? SEE? I called this in 1739 and no one believed me! Voltaire was still getting the Anti-Machiavel published in 1740!
* Man trinke mit seiner Geliebten ja auch keinen Kräutertee
I get the gist of this (it's what I said in my Peter Keith post about Fritz not having a high opinion of the political prowess of people he met socially), but what is this about herbal tea?
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - 1740s
First of all: when did Wilhelmine's one and only visit to Rheinsberg (which coincided with the last time Fritz was there as far as I recall, after he was King already) happen? I just have a vague "early in his rule" memory, but that's covering anything between 1740 and the end of the first Silesian War.
As to why he didn't call her to Berlin straight away: honestly, I think it's for the Prince Hal/Henry V. reason. Everbody but everybody knew how close he and Wilhelmine had been throughout their childhood and adolescence. People also expected her to play a big role in his regime. (See Seckendorff the younger noting that SD might have miscalculated by dissing her daughter so much because Fritz, Seckendorff the younger thought, was going to resent that once he was King when Wilhelmine surely would be a major star at his court.) And remember that letter he wrote to Queen Caroline about how he'd never marry anyone but Princess Emily, one of the earliest things he apologized to FW for? (Not least because he could objectively see it had been a big mistake, no future monarch should tie himself down like this.) This letter, so said Fritz to several people and so Wilhelmine admits in her memoirs, had not only been written at Mom's urgings, but also Wilhelmine's. And because FW was so very publically angry about this, this was known to all and sunder as the example of Fritz politically influenced by women (tm), specifically, his mother and sister. Incidentally, bear also in mind the greater context. It's telling he wrote that letter to Caroline, not to Uncle George. Even in Prussia, they evidently knew Caroline was the brains of that operation. And while Reinette was not yet Louis XV's maitresse en titre, otherws were. In Russia, you had a Czarina on the throne. So: you have several major European powers dominated (in the public eye) by women, even when they were nominally ruled by men.
So I think Fritz, very set on remaking himself in the eyes of the public as der Einzige König, wanted to make it absolutely clear that no, he was NOT going to be influenced or dominated by anyone, including his favourite sister. Hence no immediate summonings. (Algarotti and Duhan were different - no one had expected them to exert any influence on him. People very much expected Wilhelmine to. Ergo: no summonings to make it clear she won't be the Power behind his Throne. Later visists, once he's won glory for himself and impressed everyone, are different, of course.
The saying actually is "ich wünschte, die Tage hätten mehr als 24 Stunden". I suspect the editor slipped up and didn't catch some leftout words.
Herbal tea: commonly associated with curing cold. You get doused with it by your doctors. Very sensible, not-well-tasting and unerotic. Note Fritz is casting Voltaire as his mistress there.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough - 1740s
October 1740, so the same time as Voltaire, who was also disappointed that he didn't get an immediate summons and an offer like Algarotti.
So I think Fritz, very set on remaking himself in the eyes of the public as der Einzige König, wanted to make it absolutely clear that no, he was NOT going to be influenced or dominated by anyone, including his favourite sister.
That does make sense. I've always thought that was part of the same reason he kept Peter at a distance (beyond the timing: Peter only returned to Prussia at the time Fritz was busy planning the Silesia invasion): he didn't want Peter trying to parlay his sacrifice into power. I originally had him spelling this out in the fic, but after revisions there wasn't really a place for it, and so that whole exchange got condensed down to, "I don't have to worry about you making a power grab, I gather?"--the implication being that that had been on his mind.
Paranoid Fritz is paranoid Fritz, as you say. And beyond that, public opinion matters a lot to him.
The saying actually is "ich wünschte, die Tage hätten mehr als 24 Stunden". I suspect the editor slipped up and didn't catch some leftout words.
Ah. We have that saying too! (It's hard enough to read in German without words getting left out, lol. This is like the time I managed to struggle my way through two pages of blackletter font, except where half a letter didn't get printed and I guessed the wrong letter, which changed the whole meaning of the word.)
Herbal tea: commonly associated with curing cold. You get doused with it by your doctors. Very sensible, not-well-tasting and unerotic.
Ah, okay. I don't have those connotations with herbal teas. (Maybe other Americans do, idk.) That makes sense, thank you.
Note Fritz is casting Voltaire as his mistress there.
Yes, that I noticed! Later, of course, he will cast him as Aeneas and himself as Dido. And Voltaire will cast Fritz as Alcina. Look, even if that letter was totally faked, Voltaire, you're still gay-as-hell-for-Fritz. :P
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Since I'm doing 20 pages with very little effort, and I'm not actually making myself do more than that,
All of which is to say, I'm no longer spending 100% of my free time on German, but I also don't want to lose my momentum, because I'm SO. CLOSE. But I'm so far that if I stop, what little command I do have will be gone before I know it.
So 30 pages tomorrow or you yell at me!
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Indeed, which is why all my beta emails to
And hooray on you reading a book featuring my guy Boswell (among others)!
I have to admit the author doooooes noooot like Boswell. Well, as an author, yes. But as a person, not so much.
you might say I know the cast. *g*)
And quite an extensive cast it is! Boswell and Johnson, of course, but also Edmund Burke, Joshua Reynolds, Frances Reynolds, Thomas Sheridan, Elizabeth Sheridan, Oliver Goldsmith, David Garrick, Fanny Burney, Hester Thrales, Adam Smith, Edward Gibbon, Charlotte Lennox, and others.
So far, Garrick is my favorite. The history of acting was *fascinating*.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
As to the author not liking Boswell as a person, well, it happens. I mean, I've written an entire post as to why I like him, so I won't repeat that all here, but limit myself to a few bullet points not related to Boswell as an author:
- for all his celebrity seeking outs, Boswell is also the guy who defends luckless thieves of sheep, gets his guy off the first time but not again eight years later for the same offense, and then stays with him in his last hours so he isn't alone and comforts him; this isn't a famous highwayman, just a poor Scotsman named John Reid unkown to anyone (and who would be unknown to us, too, if he wasn't in Boswell's journal)
- (Boswell also defends convict and ocean crosser Mary Bryant when she makes it back to England, but since the ocean crossing won her fame, I don't suppose that counts in the same way)
- when his little daughter Veronica decides there is no God and pronounces this out loud, Boswell, religious 18th century Protestant Scotsman with a very strict authoritarian father he's on bad terms with, does not react by punishing his daughter or admonishing her or frightening her with outwardly shown disapproval/shock. First he
seeks consults a self help bookchecks whether there are any parenting books advising what to do. Not finding any to his satisfaction, he next decides to ask Veronica how she got the idea, not aggressively (we know because he gives us the entire scene in dialogue), and finding she decided because she got told God took *dead person X* if there was no God, there would be no dead people, patiently explains this would not be the case, so Veronica is good with God again- when Johson and the other guys in the club think you could be happy with any random woman in marriage, Boswell - who can't stop having casual sex, but also loves his wife, disagrees: I have a strong imagination that I could not have been so happy in marriage with any other woman as with my dear wife. I cannot tell why, so as to give any rational explanation to the others. I only know or fancy that there are qualities and compositions of qualities (to talk in musical metaphor) which in the course of our lives appear to me in her that please me more than what I have perceived in any other woman, and which I cannot separate from her identity.
- Boswell comes off way better than Hester Thrale (in particular) or several of Johnson's other friends when it comes to Francis Barber, Johnson's black servant who also was Johnson's main heir (with which Hawkings and Thrale and several others, but not Boswell who liked and supported him, had a problem); more about this in my review of Francis Barber's biography here, and as you know, I think that how you treat those below you in the hierarchy, especially if you yourself have fallen on hard times, is one of the best testimony's of character.
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
I think that how you treat those below you in the hierarchy, especially if you yourself have fallen on hard times, is one of the best testimony's of character.
Damrosch agrees with this, but chooses radically different examples of how Boswell behaved toward the people below him in the hierarchy. If I have more time after I finish the book, I'll share some examples.
I'm under no illusions that I'm getting a balanced portrayal of these people, but much like with Bodanis' romanticizing bio of Voltaire and Émilie, I'm learning whole bunches of things I didn't know, and that's very useful. As recently agreed, we all started out with random unsourced anecdotes about Fritz! You have to start somewhere. :D
I've put the Barber book on my maybe list, thank you. My kingdom for more time! (Currently working on fix-it fic.)
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
You'll know this quote, but I have to share it with
When Boswell tried to get a rise out of him by suggesting that Garrick was too vain about his reputation, Johnson retorted, "Sir, it is wonderful how little Garrick assumes. Consider, Sir: celebrated men, such as you have mentioned, have had their applause at a distance; but Garrick had it dashed in his face, sounded in his ears, and went home every night with the plaudits of a thousand in his cranium. … If all this had happened to me, I should have had a couple of fellows with long poles walking before me, to knock down everybody that stood in the way."
:D
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
OK, I love all these stories, but this one is just lovely <3
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
I admit I omitted her presence from Lovers, where she really should have been on Fritz's radar in the first chapter. The problem was that she's *so* important that it would have been hard to keep her from dominating the very specific story I wanted to tell, and she didn't fit into that set of parallels I was developing. But I gave her a starring role in the other fic!
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
I read up through the end of the Italy trip. The Seven Years' War is coming, then death. :/
Re: Oster Wilhelmine readthrough
Hephaistion and Alexander
Which is an excellent, highly readable essay of about 30 pages succeeding in what sets out to do, put the Hervey/FoW relationship into context and drawing conclusion. The authors always make it clear when they're speculating, but also on what grounds they do so.
In terms of context for Favourites: generally speaking, in public consciousness there lived two types of Favourites. The Bad Favourite, obviously, bleeding the realm dry, which is why Princes should not have just one but should dispense their favour among several. (Only human affection doesn't always work that way.) And the Good Favourite, the Trusted Faithful Lieutenant, who is loyal to his lord (or lady) but also speaks truth to power when necessary. When Sarah Churchill re: her relationship with Queen Anne prides herself on her candor, she's also pointing towards this role model. In terms of antique role models, Hephaistion is the Good Favourite - "He, too, is Alexander", loyal but never expoitative, unafraid to talk back to Alexander when needed, which is emphasiized in the most popular Alexander biography read at the time, the Quintus Curtius Rufus one. Which is one of the association Hervey will go for when picking the name. At the same time, the homoerotic association the Alexander/Hephaistion relationship evoked was definitely there as well, especially for someone who was as well read in the classics as Hervey was.
The other important context the authors establish is that of the changing attitude towards same sex relationships. In Stuart times, the self proclaimed libertines included m/m and f/f in their erotic poetry, Rochester prominently. Same sex relationships were also used for slander, especially in a political context; again, see Sarah Churchill, when losing Anne's favour to Abigail Masham, causing scandalous poetry and pamphlets being written that accuse Abigail of a lesbian relationship with Anne. Still, there was a great deal of laissez faire in the nobility, and all the nobility clubs like the Kit Kat club which had a great deal of ribaldry and (het) sex objects swapping also had at the very least homoerotic jokes and phallocentric conversations through the 18th century in England, but as time went on, the attitudes changed. By the 1760s, a self proclaimed libertine and free thinker like John Wilkes isn't just aggressively heterosexual but aggressively attacking homoerotic relationships as decadent and coded into princely depravity and tyranny.
Hervey and his entourage were more old school, obviously. Now I had noticed Hervey in the later part of his memoirs mentioning our old aquaintance Charles Hanbury Williams as a young man, aka Poniatowski's future mentor, the Fritz-loathing future envoy. He was a part of Hervey's wider social circle, friends with both Fox brothers (i.e. Hervey's boyfriend Stephen and Stephen's brother Henry), and guess what:
Winnington and the Fox brothers were also close friends with Hanbury Williams, who, in February 1740, penned a series of verses on Winnington's abandonment of Horatio Townshend for Teddy Byng. The following July, Hanbury Williams wrote an ode to Horatio Townshend that was even more explicit:
' Come to my Breast, my Lovely Boy!
Thou Source of Greek & Roman Joy!
And let my Arms entwine 'ye;
Behold my strong erected Tarse,
Display your plump, & milk-white Arse,
Young, blooming, Ligurine!
(Our authors note that Hanbury Williams and Henry Fox were also notorious womanizers and H-W wrote just as explicit het verses, so: bi, rather than gay.)
As noted in my previous Hervey write-ups, Hervey being attacked by Pulteney specifically for his sexual ambiguity is also a sign of this changing time, of homoeroticism put more and more into a negative satiric context, and othered. And that was if you were a protected by your status noble. Really news to me and very important for not just the British climate towards same sex relationships was this bit of information:
And what may have given their fears extra impetus was the growing climate of moral panic over sodomy, itself provoked by the sensational trials of around three hundred men and boys for sodomy which were taking place in many of the leading cities of the United Provinces from 1730 onwards.The Dutch sodomy trials had swiftly made their way into the British press. Such reports not only expressed their abhorrence of this 'abominable Vice' and described in detail how the 'detested Criminals' were executed by being partially strangled, 'burnt with Straw', and drowned." They also noted how the accused included those who had held important political office. As the London Evening Post commented in June 1730, 'all Ranks are infected to that Degree, that the Magistrates are almost at a Loss how to Extinguish this Infernal Heat', and cited by name two prominent Dutch politicians suspected of the crime.
The Daily Journal went further and described the fury of the Amsterdam crowd when it became known that those who had been convicted of sodomy amongst 'the richer Sort of People' had been granted the privilege of a private execution. 'The Populace arising in Arms, and demanding publick Execution of the Rich as well as the Poor ... the Magistrates were obliged to send to the Hague ... to quell this Mob'.' Thus, when Pulteney wrote of how the 'unnatural, reigning Vice' of which he accused Hervey had 'of late, been severely punish'd in a neighbouring Nation', he was making both a highly emotive connection that his readers would have immediately understood-and suggesting, by implication, that Hervey deserved the same brutal punishment.
Yet another context in which the Hervey and Fritz of Wales relationship plays out is that of the Royal Family. Here our authors do us the immense service and point out the timing, and remind us of the dates:
1716: 20 years old Hervey, when on his Grand Tour, visits Hannover and as urged by his father take the trouble to make nice with 9 years old Fritz, in order to impress the future monarch.
December 1728: adult Fritz of Wales finally arrives in England following the death of G1 and the coronation of his father as G2. During this time, however, Hervey is on his second Europe journey, this one with Stephen Fox.
October 1729: Hervey returns to England.
May 1730: Hervey becomes appointed Vice Chamberlain
1731: Hervey's friendship with FoW peaks; this is where the two preserved letters from FoW to Hervey (all others were destroyed) are from. (Hervey's own original letters to FoW were also destroyed, - after Fritz of Wales died, Augusta supposedly burned most of his correspondance - but luckily Hervey kept copies of his outgoing mail, so we do have his letters to the prince in copy.)
Late autumn and winter of 1731: Hervey writes angry letters about FoW to boyfriend Stephen Fox and to Lord Bristol, Hervey's father. FoW's affair with Hervey's mistress Anne Vane becomes public; Hervey is replaced as FoW's advisor by Bubb Dodington (what a name!).
April of 1732: Hervey tries to blackmail and bully Anne Vane into getting the Prince to take him back as advisor, thereby allienating the Prince even further. The relationship is over for good.
You may have noticed from the dates that Hervey establishing himself as royal Chamberlain and as the confidant to Queen Caroline and Hervey's friendship with Fritz of Wales happen exactly at the same time. This wasn't clear to me before, and it's hugely important. Our authors speculate that Hervey might have had Buckingham in mind as a role model of a generation uniting Royal Favourite. (
When it comes to "why did Hervey respond to the breakup to badly?", the authors don't think it was about Anne Vane as such, because Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not, and Hervey never comes across caring about Anne Vane for more than sex. (Especially when compared to the love letters he writes to Stephen Fox or Algarotti.) But being dumped for a man like Dodington, that's what hurt. Along with losing the prospect of being the next King's Favourite. But the authors don't think it was just all careerism on Hervey's part, not if he'd been even partly serious with picking Hephaistion as his role model. Hephaistion dumped by Alexander is unthinkable.
The question as to why Fritz of Wales dumped Hervey gets replied by taking all these various factors into account. Fritz of Wales wanted to establish his own identity outside the family he didn't get along with, and Hervey simultanously vying for Mom's favor and his own was an active negative rather than a positive here.
(BTW, re: the Hervey and Caroline relationship, the author says the relentless emphasis on Caroline as a mother figure here is on the one hand stretching things - since Caroline was only thirteen years older than Hervey - but on the other allowed the two of them to express their affection scandal free and in public; no one, not even the most relentless Hervey hater who accused Hervey of having pimped Anne Vane to FoW and of being Sporus and an evil gay etc., ever accused him of having illicit designs on the Queen's virtue, or the Queen to behave in any way inappropriate towards a man not her husband. This is a great contrast to what happened after of FoW' death with his poor widow, Augusta, who was accused to have an affair with her son future G3's tutor Lord Bute, who'd later become G3's minister of state (and also Lady Mary's son-in-law). Going by all we know, there was zero truth in that, and G3's fondness for Lord Bute was because the man had been a father figure to him in his adolescence, but there was still a great deal of hostility, satire and misogyny directed against Augusta, and even her coffin was cursed by the crowd as that of a shameless whore. With, again, zero evidence that she ever had done anything with Lord Bute.)
The Pulteney scandal and the ensueing duel plus even more scandal didn't seem to immediately affect FoW's feelings for Hervey - Hervey even makes a light hearted joke about it in one of his letters at the time - but the authors speculate that the affair in combination with the Dutch scandal of the trials against gay men and the fact that Fritz of Wales started to court a good public opinion at this point in order to get some standing in England (where he was looked at as a foreigner while brother future Billy the Butcher had been born and raised in the country) might have all contributed to Fritz of Wales deciding to trade in Hervey to Dodington.
Lastly: when they were close, how close where they? The essay starts with that quote from Hervey's letter to Stephen Fox where he says he wished he could love Fritz of Wales the way he loves Stephen Fox. Now, when I had read that quote first, in Halsband's Hervey biography, I had read it negatively, meaning "since this relationship could be the making of me, I wish I could love the guy at all, and I pretend to, but I don't". This, of course, is not how Stephen Fox took it; he seems to have read it as "I wish I could love the Prince the way I love you, i.e. romantically", hence the further exchange of tearful letters and Hervey apologizing and swearing he loves no one the way he loves Stephen.
On the other hand, Fritz of Wales actually uses the same nickname for Hervey as did Stephen Fox, and in one of the two preserved letters gets a bit teasing and flirtatious about it:
(T)hese show a deep affection for Hervey which leaps from the page. Frederick adopted the classical mythological personas of Orestes and Pylades for Hervey and himself, writing in one letter as 'the warm Orestes, to his Dear Pilades'. Orestes was the son of King Agamemnon, and he and Pylades were celebrated in classical literature as the inseparable friends who were willing to die for each other. The pair feature in Ambrose Philips's popular neo-classical drama, The Distrest Mother (1712), a play with which the prince was already acquainted, having ordered a command performance of it in January 1729. Frederick also had a more familiar name for Hervey-'My L[or] d Chicken', and 'my Dear Chicken'-an epithet, it seems, about Hervey's lack of physical robustness, and one which Hervey also liked to use about himself in his letters to both the prince and Stephen Fox. In 1730, then, Frederick liked to suggest, or indeed saw, Hervey as his intimate, immutable companion.
Of course FoW had girlfriends throughout the relationship and pre Anne Vane confided to Hervey about them - one of Hervey's "Hephaistion" letters asks whether "Roxana or Statira is in favour", making references to Alexander the Great's wives - but that doesn't exclude some homoerotic frisson, for, as the authors write: It is possible to read Hervey's and Frederick's relationship as having a similar heterosexual and homoerotic charge. This might explain Frederick's rather flirtatious wish in one letter to bait Stephen Fox about Frederick's and Hervey's friendship. Frederick wrote to Hervey, when he was visiting Stephen Fox in Somerset, by joking that 'being a fraid that this Letter should be opened if I sent it directly to you so I make a direction to Mr Fox, as if it was written to You by a Lady, to make you be teazed a little a bout it Adieu my Dear'.
Perhaps the most compelling-if opaque-evidence for the complexity of Hervey's and Frederick's feelings for each other comes from Hervey's letters to Stephen Fox in the autumn of I73I. Hervey's and Frederick's relationship seems to have reached an intensity by late August I73I that unsettled Hervey. On 26 August Hervey told Fox that the prince had been seriously ill with a fever and added mysteriously, 'I should say many things to you if you were here which I shall not trust even to a Cypher. Solomon you know says speak not in Palaces for the Walls have Ears, nor of Princes for the Birds of the Air will reveal it.'
In conclusion: how an erastes and eromenos relationship can go truly, badly wrong, even if it remained subtextual between them.
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
That's interesting, because while that's definitely the characterization of him that I and others have picked up on, what I recall is Alexander saying something along the lines of him loving Hephaistion the most but respecting Krateros the most, because Hephaistion was loyal to Alexander the man and Krateros to Alexander the king. But I think that was in Plutarch, not Curtius.
as time went on, the attitudes changed. By the 1760s, a self proclaimed libertine and free thinker like John Wilkes isn't just aggressively heterosexual but aggressively attacking homoerotic relationships as decadent and coded into princely depravity and tyranny.
Huh, I didn't realize it had begun that early.
The following July, Hanbury Williams wrote an ode to Horatio Townshend that was even more explicit:
These envoys!
As the London Evening Post commented in June 1730, 'all Ranks are infected to that Degree, that the Magistrates are almost at a Loss how to Extinguish this Infernal Heat', and cited by name two prominent Dutch politicians suspected of the crime.
Wooow, that's right as the escape attempt via the Netherlands is happening. Must keep this in mind!
The Daily Journal went further and described the fury of the Amsterdam crowd when it became known that those who had been convicted of sodomy amongst 'the richer Sort of People' had been granted the privilege of a private execution.
Sigh. This is one of those cases where both sides are terribly wrong.
Thus, when Pulteney wrote of how the 'unnatural, reigning Vice' of which he accused Hervey had 'of late, been severely punish'd in a neighbouring Nation', he was making both a highly emotive connection that his readers would have immediately understood-and suggesting, by implication, that Hervey deserved the same brutal punishment.
*blink* Wooow.
You may have noticed from the dates that Hervey establishing himself as royal Chamberlain and as the confidant to Queen Caroline and Hervey's friendship with Fritz of Wales happen exactly at the same time. This wasn't clear to me before, and it's hugely important.
Yes, I hadn't picked up on that either, so thank you for spelling that out.
Bubb Dodington (what a name!).
I laughed. It reminds me of an Eddie Izzard skit where he's imagining Mr. and Mrs. Humperdinck saying,
"What shall we call our son so he does not get the shit kicked out of him at school?"
“We shall call him Engelbert!"
"Good, that'll work!"
When it comes to "why did Hervey respond to the breakup to badly?", the authors don't think it was about Anne Vane as such, because Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not, and Hervey never comes across caring about Anne Vane for more than sex. (Especially when compared to the love letters he writes to Stephen Fox or Algarotti.) But being dumped for a man like Dodington, that's what hurt.
That makes sense. Hervey's set was fine with mistress sharing more often than not was the impression I had, so I was a bit surprised that it would trigger a breakup, but of course individual dynamics vary widely. But losing something that seems to have been more central to his identity being that distressing, makes sense.
but on the other allowed the two of them to express their affection scandal free and in public; no one, not even the most relentless Hervey hater who accused Hervey of having pimped Anne Vane to FoW and of being Sporus and an evil gay etc., ever accused him of having illicit designs on the Queen's virtue, or the Queen to behave in any way inappropriate towards a man not her husband
Well, that's good! And yes, "maternal" would be a good way to try to avert that fate.
In conclusion: how an erastes and eromenos relationship can go truly, badly wrong, even if it remained subtextual between them.
A fascinating read, and I thank you for it!
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Always with the caveat: in England. (And the Netherlands, apparantly.) We don't have any data (yet) to tell us about other Eurpean countries. I mean, it's telling that in the Bellino episode (always according to his memoirs), young Casanova's problem wasn't "I've fallen in love with a man", but "I've fallen in love with a eunuch" (i.e. the eunuch part was what he didn't want to believe). Now, Bellino does turn out to be a woman in disguise, but he doesn't find out until after he's decided he doesn't care anymore what (s)he is, he loves this person. And the memoirs are of course written by old Casanova in the 1780s, being bored to death in Bohemia, so...
These envoys!
Indeed. Since both Andrew Mitchell and Charles Hanbury Williams turn out to have been bi, I'm starting to eye Guy Dickens and Charles Hotham Snr. Clearly, being an envoy is like being a soldier in the Prussian army in terms of likely straightness.
Wooow, that's right as the escape attempt via the Netherlands is happening. Must keep this in mind!
No kidding. Imagine Peter asking after the Come d'Alberville, being disappointed there, going into a Dutch inn only to find out everyone is talking about how more sodomites should be executed in public, as gruesomely as possible. And then he finds out FW is after him. No wonder he threw himself at the mercy of Chesterfield's people and got the hell out of there.
Re: Pulteney ,I forgot to mention my write up of Hervey's memoirs that there's finally an indication as to why he was such an ass to his wife in his last will. He mentions, not once but twice, that "Lady Hervey" was very much taken wit Pulteney and first advised for Hervey to side with him, not Walpole, and later, even after the Duel and the slander, that they should reconcile because she still liked him so much. Whether or not this is true, I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Always with the caveat: in England.
But it was England specifically that I had in mind when I wrote that! I had run across something recently that said that London had a thriving "molly" subculture in the 1750s and was the place to be if you were gay. Of course, now that I think of it, the point of comparison was the American colonies, founded in part by Puritans, and even today, you can't go naked into your German sauna if there are
Canadian savagesAmericans about. ;)So, I guess it's all relative.
Imagine Peter asking after the Come d'Alberville, being disappointed there, going into a Dutch inn only to find out everyone is talking about how more sodomites should be executed in public, as gruesomely as possible. And then he finds out FW is after him.
ZOMG. Though since he's been stationed in Wesel all year, I was imagining he would have heard about the trials as they were happening...but the news is one thing, but yes, imagine walking into a bar and hearing the man on the street go, "More of that, please!"
Also, I've mentioned this before, but Peter was uneducated minor nobility sent to FW's court and exposed to FW at close range during a formative period of his sexuality, which means I do wonder how comfortable he was with being bisexual. (Some very ambiguous statements by Wilhelmine plus Fritz being gay now being our only evidence that Peter *was* bi, incidentally.)
Whether or not this is true, I suppose if someone had written about me that I deserve to be gruesomely executed and my wife keeps going on about what a great guy he is - or at least that's how I understand her - then I'd be somewhat resentful, too.
Ah, this makes a lot of sense! Yeah, people are three-dimensional and complicated. :/
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Heh. Yeah, I guess this is a reminder to me that I always have to be careful to think about both sides (as you are).
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Fritz: Well, if you're Heinrich it works that way, except that it actually doesn't work because all his favourites are Bad Favourites.
And the Good Favourite, the Trusted Faithful Lieutenant, who is loyal to his lord (or lady) but also speaks truth to power when necessary.
LOL, my immediate reaction to this was "Hey, they had that trope and it was beloved by fans back then too!" :D
But seriously, thank you for including this info, this was all fascinating.
You may have noticed from the dates that Hervey establishing himself as royal Chamberlain and as the confidant to Queen Caroline and Hervey's friendship with Fritz of Wales happen exactly at the same time.
Me: But this seems like it wouldn't quite wor--
But being dumped for a man like Dodington, that's what hurt. Along with losing the prospect of being the next King's Favourite. But the authors don't think it was just all careerism on Hervey's part, not if he'd been even partly serious with picking Hephaistion as his role model. Hephaistion dumped by Alexander is unthinkable.
The question as to why Fritz of Wales dumped Hervey gets replied by taking all these various factors into account. Fritz of Wales wanted to establish his own identity outside the family he didn't get along with, and Hervey simultanously vying for Mom's favor and his own was an active negative rather than a positive here.
...all of this is super fascinating and makes a lot of sense.
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
This made me laugh so hard and wish I had come up with it! :D
But seriously, thank you for including this info, this was all fascinating.
Yes! Thank you!
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
Heinrich: And yet, none of my favourites wrote a trashy tell-all or a letter based RPF. Or ran away from me to another country, never to return.
Re: Hephaistion and Alexander
The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Then, after Fritz' arrest is really really public, he keeps reporting rumors that he's about to be forgiven by Dad just the next few days, in September that Katte managed to clear himself almost totally and is facing just a few years of arrest, max. Wilhelmine is consistently reported sick for the remainder of 1730, that's the explanation S. keeps giving for why no one is allowed to see her anymore. She's in a bad state of health. Home arrest, what home arrest? On October 14th, he's noticed the messengers being sent from Wusterhausen to Köpenick (where the war tribunal was held) and back and optimistically concludes FW wants to reopen the palace at Köpenick as Fritz' new residence and forgiveness is really really imminent now. He also has heard that the tribunal wanted to deliver an ultra strict sentence on Katte, but FW, being the merciful King he is, has intervened and provided mercy and will soon declare Katte's pardon.
Just when I was ready to conclude he just doesn't have luck with his spies and paid informants, I check out the November entries, and lo, not only does S. provide a pretty accurate report of the execution, complete with dialogue between Fritz and Katte, but he also, near the end of November (25th) in another entry, has read the three letters Katte wrote (to the King, to his father and to his grandfather) in copies. (He still insists on lightside FW, saying that the King read Katte's letter only two days ago but bitterly regrets it and swears he'd totally have pardoned Katte if he had read it first.) (He also says Hans Heinrich has offered his resignation, and so has Katte's superior Natzmer, but that FW refused to accept it and on the contrary that the Katte family is in for some favors.) And then in December we get back to rumors of Fritz' imminent return to parental favor and neighbourhood, i.e. evidently false intelligence. So how come his intel on the execution is suddenly dead on? S., you are a man of mystery. Here's what he writes, and you know the scene so well that I give you Rokoko German:
Berlin, den 11. November 1730.
Nach dem jüngst gemeldetermaßen, der Lieut. v. Katte gestern vor 8 Tagen, unter einer Escorte von 30 Mann Gens d'Armes in Begleitung des Ritt-Meisters v. Aßeburg und des Gens d'Armerie Feld Predigers nach der 10 Meil von hier entlegenen Veste Cüstrin gebracht und daselbst den 3. Tag darauf, am vergangenen Sonntage, abgeliefert worden; hat der, auf Königl. Befehl, dahin voraus gegangene Geh. Rath pp. Gerbet, in Gegenwart des gleichfalls aldar schon an gelangt gewesenen Obristen v. Derschau und anderer dazu bestimmter Officiern, demselben abermahls das Todesurtheil vorlesen und auf den folgenden Tag, dessen die Execution ankündigen müßen. Der Feld Prediger hat demnach die Devotion mit ihm continuiret, da andern Morgens der Condemnatus bald nach 7 Uhr im Schloße sich auf einen daselbst angefahrenen Sand-Haufen, gleich gegen des Cron-Prinzen Fenster über, eingefunden und wie Se. Königl. Hoheit ihn darauf angeredet. Mons. Katte! ich bitte euch vergebet mir, wann Ich euch zu leyde gethan und Ursache an euern Tode bin; und er sich dagegen hinwieder ganz constant in Antwort vernehmen laßen: Ihro Hoheit haben nicht Ursache um Vergebung zu bitten, weil Sie mir nichts zu wieder gethan und ich selbst meines Todes Ursache bin.
Er darauf mit Gebet sich zu Gott gewandt, so folglich sich selbst die Augen verbunden und also in gleicher Constance des Henckers Schwerd Schlag abgewartet, der dann auch so glücklich gelungen, daß mit einem Hieb der Kopf vom Cörper abgesondert worden; welchem necht man dem Leichnam mit dem ausgebreiteten schwarzen Tuch bedecket und also bis 2 Uhr Nachmittags zum Schau liegen laßen; da man selben in einen Sarg geleget und die bestellte 12 Bürger des Orts selbigen so folglich zur Beerdigung auf den Kirchhof getragen; mit welcher Tragedie dann in so weit dieser Actus geendet, und wird gesagt: daß, wann der König dieses decollierten Lieutnants Verbrechen nach der rigoeur hätte bestrafen lassen wollen und nicht consideration für die viele vornehme Verwandten Se. Maj. selben mit einerweit eclatanteren Todes-Strafe belegen können.
Given S. earlier reports all those imminent pardons, the turnaround to "FW totally could have made it worse!" (i.e. FW's own argument) is especially startling. And the fact that it all checks out - the dialogue exchange, the sandheap, Katte binding his own eyes.
In the same November 25th entry where S. mentions the three letters and having read copies, he also provides us with this priceless anecdote about, wait for it, young AW confronting FW with Katte:
Sonsten wird pargiret: daß der zweyte Königl. Prinz jüngster Tagen beim Exercieren, da ein Officier ihm die Handgriffe bey bringen sollen, ganz ermüdet worden und nicht mehr damit fortfahren wollen; wie nun des Königs Majt. zu Ihm gelaget, wenn Du nicht exerciren
willst, so sollst Du auch kein port d'epée mehr tragen; worauf der Prinz geantwortet: mein lieber Papa! das will ich wohl gleich wieder geben; wie der König darauf repliciret: Wilhelm! so kanst Du auch kein Officier sein; hätte der Prinz erwidert; da frage ich nichts nach, mein lieber Papa läßet ja einen Officiers die Köpfe abhauen.
Was nun hiermit weiter vorgefallen, übergehet man billig mit Stillschweigen; inzwischen habe der König geargwohnet: daß gegen den Prinzen jemand dergleichen Reden geführet haben müßte; weswegen Er etwas hart angelaßen, solches zu bekennen; Er hat aber keinen genannt; indessen soll der Kriegs Rath Lindener als Informator, deswegen ein scharfes Bad haben ausstehen müßen.
English translation, because I need you to understand this if google doesn't deliver: It's also told that the second royal prince the other day during drilling grew exhausted when an officer was supposed to teach him all the right grips, and hadn't wanted to continue; then the King came to him, he told him, if you don't want to drill anymore, you'll have to return your sword, to which the Prince replied: Dear Papa! I want to return it at once! and the King answered: Wilhelm! Then you can't be an officer! To which the Prince supposedly returned, I don't care for it, my dear Papa orders his officers' heads to be cut off.
What then happened should rather be covered with silence; by now the King suspects someone has been talking in front of the Prince with such speeches, and he's approached him somewhat harshly to confess to this; but (AW) did not provide anyone's name; but still, the Councillor Lindener as the likely informant has been in hot waters because of this.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Lol, I checked my email this morning right before I had two consecutive meetings, and when I got to this line and saw the length of the write-up, I had to stop, because otherwise I wasn't going to be able to focus on work. :P
Just from flipping through the pdf before handing it over, I saw that Stratemann looked like he had potentially interesting stuff on the royal family, and of course the 1728-1733 dates meant that I knew I didn't have to ask you to tell me about the parts that you knew would be Relevant to My Interests (TM). ;)
But now I have read this, and wooooow.
First I have to say, you go, eight-year-old AW! You tell your dad off!
What then happened should rather be covered with silence
Um. I hope this doesn't but fear that it does mean that AW got a beating. :(
Also, Brunswick envoy guy, we count on you for Rococo frankness! Silence is for Victorians. :P
But yeah, poor AW. He had to intercede for a long fellow, then FW did that "I'm going to cut off your fingers" joke that it took AW a minute to decide was a joke, and now Katte. :/
Ihro Hoheit haben nicht Ursache um Vergebung zu bitten, weil Sie mir nichts zu wieder gethan und ich selbst meines Todes Ursache bin.
Yet another slight variant on the last words! The new part is "I myself am the cause of my death." This is consistent with "Not Fritz's fault, but also not FW's fault, definitely God punishing me for my ambitions." [ETA: To be fair, he didn't actually say "punish", he went for something a little less self-critical. What he said, as I recall, was that God was using him as a tool in his grand divine plan to illustrate the vanity of human ambitions, which is theologically different.]
I'm still with
So how come his intel on the execution is suddenly dead on? S., you are a man of mystery.
My theory is that the Danish ambassador, von Johnn, who wrote *his* envoy report on November 11, and who evidently leaked the letters and an eyewitness description to Cologne, so that EVERYONE could know about it, was going, "You know what he did? You know what that bastard did?" to his fellow envoys. November 11 to November 25 is two weeks for Stratemann to have gotten the info, directly or indirectly, from the guy who wanted everyone to know what FW did.
Okay, so my German reading list just got a little longer. :P Thank you for this!
ETA: OH WAIT. I just realized that November 25 is when you said S reads the letters; November 11 is the date of the Katte execution entry. WELL THEN. Seckendorff's and Dickens' envoy reports also date to November 11, per Koser. I have to conclude at this point that all the envoys found out that day, or the day before. And I'm starting to suspect some of them were talking to each other.
Oh, that's right, Lavisse says Sauveterre obviously based his execution report on Dickens', because he didn't have good intel of his own. (Sauveterre was Rottembourg's secretary, who took over for Rottembourg after he left, and was apparently much less proactive than his former boss.) So if Dickens is talking to Sauveterre and the latter is basing his report on the former's, and Stratemann's is very similar to von Johnn's and *suddenly* S has very detailed info and access to letters where before he had nothing...I'm going with: Katte's execution was a shocking event that got everyone gossiping, and people shared notes.
Moreover, the Danish envoys were, from what I've seen, unhappy with FW and vice versa during 1730 for a number of reasons (including the usual FW recruiting in their territory reason). Since von Johnn's eyewitness report is nearly verbatim the same as the Cologne pamphlet, even more so than Stratemann's, I'm in agreement with Koser that Johnn is the most likely leaker, and since Løvenørn is suspected of tipping off Katte, I can't imagine Johnn would hesitate to share this info, which was, after all, meant to be public. *And* I'm speculating that Johnn might actually have been annoyed with FW's fanboy and wanted to try to clear some of the stars out of his eyes. :P
Stratemann's strategy, in contrast, got three children of his duke married to three children of FW, including the two most politically important ones, so...I guess that paid off. :P
Btw, I was googling Løvenørn just to get the characters that aren't on my keyboard, because I'm oddly lazy about random technical things :P, and I saw that he died in February 1740. That makes even more sense of why Fritz in 1739 is asking Fouqué, who's about to join Danish service, if he has any news on Løvenørn. I wonder if Fritz heard he was sick. In any case, as I've pointed out, Fritz didn't see Løvenørn after 1730 that I know of, and to still be asking after him in 1739 speaks of some fondness.
We know you tried, Løvenørn.
(If I don't get a lot of German done today, detective work is why. ;) )
Son of ETA: Let's not forget that Johnn and the pamphlet he leaked have the only variant of Katte's last words (so far) to mention FW, i.e., "If I had ten lives, I would give them all to reconcile Your Royal Highness with your lord father the King." Johnn: not a fan!
English translation, because I need you to understand this if google doesn't deliver:
I applaud your priorities, and also the sense of urgency you managed to convey in the word "need." :D I extremely needed to understand that, so thank you very much for the translation.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : Rumors, Rumors
- There were lots of rumors in 1729 that Fritz would be allowed to travel to France and Italy, but nothing came out of it.
- there's a lot about the squashed desertion/rebellion among the Long Fellows in early 1730 and the various gruesome executions; Stratemann being the Pollyanna of envoys, he says later when reporting on SD's bad state during the last months of her pregnancy (remember, that family scene where Wilhelmine gets forgiven by FW etc) that clearly, the Queen is distressed because she was so worried about her husband and son being in danger from those evil conspirators
- actual comment from Fritz on this incident:
It is said that the Crown Prince confessed to his confidant, literally: If it was up to me, I'd open all the gates at Potsdam and would announce: now all the scoundrels can go wherever they please and run, honest men could stay, and would be rewarded according to their merits and behavior in the future.
(This reminds me of a famous King Fritz speech just before Leuthen.)
- Stratemann in general reports incidents with members of the army and the staff; in 1728, an unlucky page forgot FW's overcoat and it rained. That guy got beaten. In 1730, one Potsdam Giant committed suicide in the room where the tobacco parliament was held (obviously not while it was in session) by hanging himself, because he had been publically humiliated by his superior officer, and FW was incensed and ordered his body being dragged through the streets and thrown on the dungheap; the guy was born in Tyrol and a Catholic, says our envoy, which makes me conclude he must have been kidnapped.
- in l729, rumor has it the recalled Suhm has ended up at the Fortress Königstein (I've been there, remember the photos), and Stratemann observes philosophically that if true, this would not be surprising, since Suhm was "a creature of Minister Flemming" and when there's a change of minister people often fall; now, Flemming was August's most important minister and majorly responsible of Countess' Cosel's downfall back in the day as he hated her and intrigued against her; the incoming new prime minister was the famous Count Brühl, whose houses Fritz will licence for plunder and whose wife he'll clash with in the 7 Years War
- Dr. Willers, according to Stratemann the guy who taught both Wilhelmine and Fritz in English in preparation for their marriages, is sent away (with honors) from Potsdam in February 1730
- considerate husband FW, when his wife is sick, tells her, sounding a lot like his son later: She should get rid of Dr. Stahlen, he (FW) wanted to be her Medicus; she should not drink so much coffee and drink nothing but hot soup instead, then her illness would pass. The Queen promised to do this and asked for the hot soup; and the following day, her condition improved.
- as reported by Wilhelmine in her memoirs, there's a message from Fritz of Wales swearing his (sight unseen) love for her and that she's the only one for him; both she and Fritz are supposed to stay in England for a year after their marriages and then Fritz gets to travel (again, according to what S has heard about the conditions for the ENglish marriages in 1730)
- Charles Hotham Sr. has a very FW experience: When the King had lunched eight days ago with the English envoy du Bourgue, there was a lot of hard drinking; and since his Majesty emptied a cup toasting the King of England's health directed at the Chevalier Hotham, the envoy demanded an equally large cup and asked for permission to toast his Majesty's health as well; which he put to the test, but holdling and emptying this put even his coworkers on week feet, but he still managed to keep his countenance; though at last his legs could not carry him anymore, and he had to be carried to his coach.
- from our loyal correspondance from Brunswick, more idyllic Hohenzollern family scenes, as the birth of Ferdinand is used by people to petition the King while offering their congratulations: Many petitions are being given to the Queen on this occasion, one of which I want to mention; for the youngest princess, Amalie, had been given by her nurse a memorandum in which she recommended and asked for her husband, who'd been a wine trader and whose trade had been ruined, to be hired by the royal cellar; ; but since the Princess Amalie couldn't quite read out the petition, the Princess Ulrike took it into her hands and adressed the King thusly: My dear Papa! I, too, come in order to ask for a huge favor. Amalie's nurse doesn't have any bread and asks for her husband to be given a lowly emmployment. Princess Amalie, also present, throws herself on the ground before the King and sadly says: "Oh yes! Dear Papa! Bread, bread for my nurse! which the King replies thusly: Don't bother me like this, you shall be granted all and your nurse shall have bread.
- post catastrophe: Löwenör (Strateman's spelling of the name) is in disgrace: The Danish envoy v. Löwenöhr, whom the King used to like always, has not been allowed to come before the King's grace anymore since he supposedly knew of a design il favoured by the King, and didn't report it. Now he lives basically incognito and it is believed he'll soon return again to his sick sovereign.
- Stratemann reports the story of the soldier who lights the candle again for Fritz after extinguishing it according to FW's order in that month of November when he suddenly has all the goods
- in the same entry as he reports the return of Major von Schach from Küstrin, S has heard a rumor about Peter Keith: It is also said: that Lieutenant v. Keit, who'd made himself invisible in Wesel in the month of August and withdrew to Holland and furtherly to England, has become a naturalized citzen there and has been equipped by his Great-British Majesty with a company. I guess this man congratulates himself heartily that he has escaped from a great anger in this country and now finds himself in such happy circumstances.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : Rumors, Rumors
Per Lavisse, these discussions apparently went far enough that in February 1730, the French government officially said, "We'd love to have you visit," which has been taken to mean that they were offering him asylum during his escape attempt, but what they really meant was, "If FW gives you permission."
(This reminds me of a famous King Fritz speech just before Leuthen.)
It does! But even with the Fritz method you only get a one-time deal; desertion at other times is Not On.
in 1728, an unlucky page forgot FW's overcoat and it rained. That guy got beaten.
Oops. I hope it wasn't my favorite FW page!
In 1730, one Potsdam Giant committed suicide in the room where the tobacco parliament was held (obviously not while it was in session) by hanging himself, because he had been publically humiliated by his superior officer
ZOMG. Also, agree he was kidnapped.
in l729, rumor has it the recalled Suhm
Interesting! I just looked up the date of this envoy, and it's October 15, 1729. My other sources have him continuing to be official envoy until January 1730, with a co-envoy from mid-September 1729 on.
Dr. Willers, according to Stratemann the guy who taught both Wilhelmine and Fritz in English
Ooh, English lessons for Fritz. I've always wondered how much English he actually knew. He had no problem spouting off about what an inferior language it was, but Fritz's specialty was always uninformed opinions. And even beyond FW's refusal to let him become properly educated (in contrast to Wilhelmine), Fritz doesn't seem to have been linguistically gifted.
since the Princess Amalie couldn't quite read out the petition, the Princess Ulrike took it into her hands and adressed the King thusly:
Awww! Go Ulrike. Those two do get the cute stories together.
Löwenör (Strateman's spelling of the name)
He's so hard to Google because there are like 6 spellings of his name!
- Stratemann reports the story of the soldier who lights the candle again for Fritz after extinguishing it according to FW's order in that month of November when he suddenly has all the goods
Ooh! That is the earliest and only contemporary account of that we have. So it was definitely predates the Fouqué visit in the following year, and since our only evidence for Fouqué letting Fritz use his candles past lights-out is Fouqué's grandson, I wonder if this story got passed down orally and changed a little to give him credit. Of course, the officer extinguishing Fritz's candle may well have just decided to leave Fouqué's candle lit on that occasion and not relight Fritz's, but it wouldn't have been necessary. Even in the cell, Fritz later reports to Wilhelmine that he was reading with a lamp, and that was before Katte's death (at least so we've deduced).
Though I have to wonder...if Stratemann knows about this candle-lighting at this early date, does FW know about this? Does he (try to) put a stop to it?
has become a naturalized citzen there and has been equipped by his Great-British Majesty with a company.
I don't know about the company, but the rest checks out.
I guess this man congratulates himself heartily that he has escaped from a great anger in this country and now finds himself in such happy circumstances.
I guess so! Though he's still nervous enough to withdraw to Dublin.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : Rumors, Rumors
When the King had lunched eight days ago with the English envoy du Bourgue, there was a lot of hard drinking; and since his Majesty emptied a cup toasting the King of England's health directed at the Chevalier Hotham, the envoy demanded an equally large cup and asked for permission to toast his Majesty's health as well; which he put to the test, but holdling and emptying this put even his coworkers on week feet, but he still managed to keep his countenance; though at last his legs could not carry him anymore, and he had to be carried to his coach.
Heh! Man, FW.
Okay, I liked that story about Ulrike and Amalie :P :)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Speaking of sources: according to the preface, Stratemann hung out with Seckendorf a lot, which makes sense because at this point Braunschweig and Habsburg interests were still aligned (and remember, MT's mother the Empress was a born EC von Braunschweig-Bevern). So he could have the intel from Johnn, but he could also have it from Seckendorf. Though why Seckendorf should suddenly provide him with the real goods in this particular month, and not before, I don't know, so it might be the Danes after all. (If he risked hanging out with in disgrace Løvenørn.)
One more thing about the preface: editor Richard Wolff here and in the footnotes complains about the "harsh and unloving" way Wilhelmine writes about her parents, and how the picture she paints of them is surely proven wrong by all these heartwarming stories about indulgent father FW....
...which reminds me: it really shows in all these sources (not just the ones about the Hohenzollern but also the British ones) how much parents dealing out verbal abuse to their children was treated very differently to children talking badly about their parents (or just talking back) - and not just in the 18th century but still in the 20th. Anyway, it doesn't seem to occur to Editor Wolff that one reason why Stratemann focuses to much on reporting cute anecdotes about the smaller kids is that anything he could say about the older ones (other than in euphemisms, like Wilhelmine being sick throughout the second half of 1730) would not sound good. He already had managed to secure the marriage with Charlotte (whose engagement he reports on) for his Duke, and was presumably gunning for Fritz, and if his mail got opened by Prussians, he really did not want to be found spouting criticism of FW, would be my guess.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
That's what I was thinking. Though if he's worried that his source might get their head cut off, maybe that contributed. :/
UGH FW.
Me when FW does something: Ugh, FW.
Me when Fritz does something: Oh, Fritz.
:P
So he could have the intel from Johnn, but he could also have it from Seckendorf. Though why Seckendorf should suddenly provide him with the real goods in this particular month, and not before, I don't know, so it might be the Danes after all.
Good point, it could have been Seckendorff. We have no data on what he knew, because his November 11 report just says that on November 6, Katte's head was cut off below Fritz's window, and Fritz had to watch, and that there's hope that Fritz is about to be freed, because FW is looking for some people (lit. "Cavaliers") to go to him.
Whereas the Johnn report has all the details that make it clear it was from an eyewitness, as does Stratemann.
An important difference between the two is that Johnn (like the pamphlet) has the "if I had ten lives to give," whereas S's is more generic. But that could also reflect bias: Johnn's makes Katte look good and FW look bad, and S's has Katte explicitly blame himself and not just exonerate Fritz (the only report so far to do so). Also, this:
1731 pamphlet presumably based on Johnn: "Mein gnädigster Cron-prinz sie haben nicht Ursach mich um Verzeihung zu bitten"
Stratemann: "Ihro Hoheit haben nicht Ursache um Vergebung zu bitten"
But since we don't have Seckendorff's account of the details of the execution, it's really hard to say whether Stratemann's is closer to one or the other.
(If he risked hanging out with in disgrace Løvenørn.)
But if Wikipedia is to be trusted, he wouldn't have had to! Løvenørn was back in Denmark by November. It would have been Johnn passing on the goods.
how much parents dealing out verbal abuse to their children was treated very differently to children talking badly about their parents (or just talking back) - and not just in the 18th century but still in the 20th
Yeah, in Wilhelmine's memoirs, she says there was no excuse for mocking her father behind his back, because no matter what your parents do, children should never forget the respect they owe them. Needless to say, I disagree with the notion that only punching down is morally acceptable, which is very convenient for the people who get to make the rules. ;)
doesn't seem to occur to Editor Wolff that one reason why Stratemann focuses to much on reporting cute anecdotes about the smaller kids is that anything he could say about the older ones (other than in euphemisms, like Wilhelmine being sick throughout the second half of 1730) would not sound good.
Sigh. Of course not.
He already had managed to secure the marriage with Charlotte (whose engagement he reports on) for his Duke, and was presumably gunning for Fritz, and if his mail got opened by Prussians, he really did not want to be found spouting criticism of FW, would be my guess.
Totally agree.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Wow! Go AW.
What then happened should rather be covered with silence
Oof. :(
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Wow! Go AW.
Envoys have it ALL! Seriously, if you'd told me early last year that I'd be eagerly jumping out of bed one morning because we just uncovered a new envoy and I want to see if
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
I don't remember if I've mentioned this before, but Peter Keith was "hanged in effigy." Hanged. Meaning his picture was put up on the gallows. Meaning if they'd caught him, his extremely unimportant family was evidently not getting *his* sentence commuted to a clean beheading. :/
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Mildred, you want to know why I find Fritz more congenial than FW even though they can both be terrible? This kind of thing is why! (Well, also, because Fritz can be charming and FW just can't, at least not in a way I recognize.)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
For all that Fritz's terribleness resulted in a great deal more suffering on a large scale (a million is a statistic), he also had positives for me to latch onto. Which is why I'm all "My (problematic) FAVE!" to Fritz and "DIE DIE DIE" to FW, unfair as that may be.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
RUN PETER RUN
You know, it occurred to me a while back that maybe Peter hanging out in a room in Dublin reading books for years without socializing much was only partly because he enjoyed that sort of thing, and partly because he was still worried about being caught. Since that was why he had left London in the first place.
I'm glad that when he came back to London, circa 1734, he considered it safe to hang out in society with intellectuals, and that the stay in Portugal was for the climate and not because only that was far enough away to be out of FW's reach.
ETA: Also. Do you think FW would have made Fritz watch?
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
If Peter gets captured early on before Katte's execution, otoh, all bets are off. Even FW letting the tribunal's judgment on Katte stand (i.e. a life sentence, amounting to "however long FW lives" sentence), because he could have had a boyfriend executed in front of Fritz without grieving one of his trusted and loyal milistary an (Hans Heinrich) and grieving the only guy from his father's administration he really liked (Grandpa Wartensleben).
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
because he could have had a boyfriend executed in front of Fritz without grieving one of his trusted and loyal milistary an (Hans Heinrich) and grieving the only guy from his father's administration he really liked (Grandpa Wartensleben).
:(
Yet another "break it differently" AU.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective : First Impressions
Peter Keith
* Remember when we found his eulogy and it said he spent three years at Trinity College in Dublin, but mostly reading alone in a room, and I said I *thought* it sounded like he didn't enroll but was there informally, but I couldn't be sure? I've finally managed to confirm that.
...By emailing Trinity College and asking the manuscripts department to check their archives. :D They had no record of him in the admissions lists, nor in the catalogue of letters to, from, or related to him.
But now we know! This had been bugging me enough that when the eulogy turned up while I was writing "Lovers", I tweaked a sentence in the first draft to be ambiguous instead of a blanket statement that he never attended university.
I admit that when I found he had a connection to Trinity College, I was delighted, because there are many archives in Germany I would like to email with questions like this, but I don't speak German well enough to carry on a correspondence. But English-language archivists are going to get emails from me. Or as
* In the course of this correspondence, I found a sentence in Wikipedia that was added during the latest round of edits, stating that Fritz refused a suggestion from the British to appoint Peter Keith envoy on the grounds that Keith wasn't experienced enough. I was initially skeptical, because Wikipedia, but then I saw the citation was Koser.
Sure enough! Koser cites his source as an exchange in the Political Correspondence, which goes like this:
Letter from the British to Podewils: Please tell Fritz we think his new envoy should be Peter Keith. "A man like him would have more credit with us than a more skilled but less well-intentioned negotiator."
Fritz to Podewils: I just bet he would. Too bad it's in *my* best interests to send a negotiator who's more skilled and less well-intentioned toward them.
In more detail, slightly paraphrased, Fritz's letter was very interesting:
I'm very surprised at this letter you forwarded. After perusing it closely, I have to assume that either Keith has been intriguing and the English were happy to oblige him, or, what is more likely, the English don't want me sending someone who can penetrate their system and shed light on their affairs for me. Someone like Keith would be very convenient for them, since they regard him as half a Briton, and since he has no idea of what it is to negotiate, they would do whatever they wanted. And that's not even counting that he's poor, which is a consideration that drives out all others.
Meaning that he's bribable because you won't pay him and he's not independently wealthy? I guess you would know all about that driving out all other considerations, Fritz. :P
Fritz: Look, I lied to Dickens about my debts, got all the money I wanted, and all I had to do was promise not to try to escape, but I made sure there was a loophole and I tried to escape anyway. It's not that hard to accept bribes ethically if you're willing to double-cross your bribers!
So...while I agree that like Lehndorff, Peter is probably not someone I would send to do hard negotiating, it is interesting that both Fritz and the English view him as half Briton (remember Lehndorff saying he'd picked up English manners), and Fritz doesn't trust him not to be intriguing with the English behind his back.
Oh! I should mention the date. February 7, 1747. So during that 1740s period when their relationship was evidently at an all-time low.
I do agree with Fritz that it's much more likely that the English wanted a favorable envoy, than that Peter was scheming. And it's interesting that they thought of him ten years after his stay (1736-1740 in Portugal, remember), and after his patron, Queen Caroline, had died in 1737.
Peter Keith's son, in contrast, later gets to be envoy to the Sardinian court in the 1770s, I guess because he's fully Prussian in Fritz's mind and has some idea of what it is to negotiate.
Incidentally, this reminds me that Fritz sent Algarotti to Turin in 1741, but didn't entrust him with full envoy credentials or official responsibility, but told him to go secretly and try to find out what he could without letting on why, but of course no one in power would talk politics with him because he didn't have an official position, and he was such a celebrity that everyone immediately knew where he was and guessed why, and so that was a disaster.
All of which is to say that Fritz generally doesn't trust the people he met socially with anything resembling power. Which is why Fredersdorf getting to be spymaster and treasurer is so unusual.
* 1747 was also the year that Peter became curator at the Academy of Sciences. His predecessor died in March, so he wasn't yet curator when this letter was sent.
I'd always taken that appointment to mean that Fritz was at least vaguely favorably disposed toward Keith getting to pursue his intellectual dreams by holding what we now call academic-adjacent positions. And I put a line in "Lovers" to reflect that.
But after reading the Maupertuis biography, I find that Fritz gave Maupertuis a free hand with appointments, unlike his successors. I had been basing my impression on Fritz's involvement on the fact that after Maupertuis died, the Academy had to submit its lists of proposed members to Fritz for approval or veto.
So now that we know that Maupertuis and Keith were at least on good enough terms that the Pollyanna of eulogists could describe his former colleague Keith as a valuable friend to his current boss Maupertuis (i.e. take with a grain of salt), it's possible Fritz had nothing to do with this appointment.
Since I read the Maupertuis bio as research for "Lovers", I removed all references to Fritz approving membership, but I left in Peter's gratitude for the academic-adjacent positions, because if my escapist fic isn't for shipping my ship, what is it for? :P
Plus, Peter became an honorary member on February 16, 1744. Fritz started micromanaging the institute in the absence of Maupertuis (who had left after the debacle of getting captured at Mollwitz) in mid January, 1744. And everyone who'd been part of the self-organized society in 1743 was immediately grandfathered in on January 23. And Maupertuis wouldn't show up in Berlin again until August 1745.
So it seems very much like Fritz personally approved Peter's membership, even if not the curatorship.
* Oh! Koser says that Fritz kept Peter "far from service in his army as well as from his person." Now, you guys know my theory on this, but I have some evidence: he gave him a court position first, evidently with SD, and a commission as an officer when Peter finally asked for it. If he was trying to keep Peter out of the army because, what, he thought he was half Briton? Why would he let him in when he asked?
Besides, I just got to the part in Oster where Oster says Wilhelmine probably expected Fritz to summon her immediately to court, and she was disappointed when he didn't. (This I believe, because I've always been surprised that he didn't.) He did summon Algarotti, Euler, Maupertuis, etc. to court...and then proceeded to ignore them while he went off to war. You know if Suhm had lived, he would have been in this group.
So I still think Fritz was trying to keep Keith from dying, not keeping him at a distance from his army per se, and getting distracted by war and politics, not personally avoiding him out of displeasure. I think Keith got the standard Fritz treatment of low pay, being taken for granted that he'd be around when Fritz had time for him, lack of clear communication about his intent, and some favors that were much bigger in Fritz's mind than in the recipient's.
* Finally, the odds of me finishing the fix-it fic, which I haven't written since May (I had to drop it for RMSE and then German, because I have a limited number of projects I can work on at one time--you'd think I could do a little each day, or alternate, but it doesn't work like that1), are low, but I'm still enjoying plotting it. And I thought you would like to know that this week, I finally came up with a way for Peter and Ariane to meet in the same year that they met in real life. <3
Now, she still has to agree to 1) move to France, 2) convert, if they want to get married, but that's handwavable with "love".:D
Peter may also have to convert; I'm toying with the idea of Fritz, Wilhelmine, and Katte converting while privately sneering at the whole thing, but Peter being a much less visible and slightly more devout individual who silently reads his Bible at home and doesn't attend illicit Huguenot services and just doesn't go to Mass...until suddenly he needs recognition of his marriage. I think I like it, because it shows that the love goes both ways, just as the understanding about his affairs with men involves compromise. (SOMEONE has to be a good husband. :P)
1. My advisor in grad school very much wanted me to finish my dissertation and also turn chapters into published journal articles at the same time, and I told her those were both lovely ideas but that it was either/or, and since one got me to a PhD and the other didn't, I finished the dissertation and did not turn the chapters into articles.
Re: Peter Keith
Email away. They all speak English. Seriously. Knowledge of other foreign languages like French, or Latin, or Spanish, or Russian, or Greek depends on what type of school you visit, but everyone going to a German school who is younger than, oh, 6o, had to take English to a level where they can correspond in and talk it.
The English proposing Peter Keith as envoy: that is very interesting. Alas, 47 is way too late for Hervey (he died in the early 1740s) to consult. In addition to Caroline being dead, Sir Robert Walpole who was PM when Peter was there is out of the government, there are new ministers all around as far as I know. So who did make the suggestion? Of course, an irresistable fanwank occurs to me: Peter did meet Algarotti....and young Andrew Mitchell. By 1747, Andrew Mitchell was rising in the ranks of the foreign office - not yet enough to be envoy himself, but he was certainly forming connections with Lords Holderness and Newcastle. Maybe he recced Peter?
Fritz the paranoid being Fritz the paranoid: unsurprising, if bad for Peter.
All of which is to say that Fritz generally doesn't trust the people he met socially with anything resembling power. Which is why Fredersdorf getting to be spymaster and treasurer is so unusual.
Definitely Fritz' favourite husband, too.
I finally came up with a way for Peter and Ariane to meet in the same year that they met in real life.
Lovely! I was wondering about her fate in your AU.
Re: Peter Keith
Why do I feel like in somewhere between a day and a week we are going to see a LOT more action in this already action-packed fandom? ;)
Of course, an irresistable fanwank occurs to me: Peter did meet Algarotti....and young Andrew Mitchell. By 1747, Andrew Mitchell was rising in the ranks of the foreign office - not yet enough to be envoy himself, but he was certainly forming connections with Lords Holderness and Newcastle. Maybe he recced Peter?
YES PLEASE. And those of you who might write fic about Peter Keith, you know who you are, could totally put it in the fic :D
Re: Peter Keith
Lol. I can see why you might think so, but it took me 4 months to finally email Trinity after finding the eulogy, and no, it didn't take me 4 months to think of it. I immediately thought of it. It took me 4 months to get around to. So...we'll see.
And those of you who might write fic about Peter Keith, you know who you are, could totally put it in the fic :D
LOLOL. On a totally unrelated note, I'm looking forward to Yuletide. :D
Re: Peter Keith
You know, English-speaking Germans always tell me this, but every time I go to Germany and have to rely on English to get around, I find myself completely unable to get simple questions like "How much are tickets?" or "Where are the spoons?" answered outside of airports and hotels. I've always figured it's like algebra and geometry being required subjects in the US: as long as you scrape through the class, you don't have to be able to perform on the spot decades later.
That said, I'm willing to grant that archivists replying to emails are more likely than, say, people staffing a museum on foot, to have the necessary competence in English to make up for my lack of German. Plus, if they're even willing to reply in German, I'm in a much better position to understand the answer than I was when put on the spot with by people speaking German to me ten years ago.
I will give it a try!
(Btw, it's for this reason that I would like to get my comprehension of spoken German up to basic proficiency someday--not now, I can only do one thing at a time--namely that people kept speaking German to me in Germany and not being able to switch to English when it was clear I hadn't a clue what they were saying, and that made for far more stressful situations than did my inability to make myself understood in German.)
So who did make the suggestion?
Preuss's footnote is kind of complicated, and requires more research than I've had time to do yet, but at any rate, it doesn't tell me whose *idea* it was, just the lines of communication along which the idea traveled to Fritz. So Villiers sent a letter to the Dutch envoy von Ginkel, who sent it to Podewils, who sent it to Fritz.
So far I've figured out that Villiers is this guy, who was British envoy to Berlin from 1746 to 1748. Von Ginkel I haven't turned up yet. So there's a chance Villiers knew Peter personally (maybe Peter hung out with British envoys to practice his English and ask after people he knew? or scheme for positions as envoy to Britain??), but I feel like someone in England still would have had to think this was a good idea.
But maybe it was Villiers' idea, and he acted on it unilaterally.
Oh,
Of course, an irresistable fanwank occurs to me: Peter did meet Algarotti....and young Andrew Mitchell. By 1747, Andrew Mitchell was rising in the ranks of the foreign office - not yet enough to be envoy himself, but he was certainly forming connections with Lords Holderness and Newcastle. Maybe he recced Peter?
But I'm totally on board with this! Besides, I do think before you suggest to a foreign king that he send a particular envoy to your country, you maybe get a thumbs up from your court, in case said prospective envoy created all kinds of bad feelings there ten years ago that you don't know about?
Fritz the paranoid being Fritz the paranoid: unsurprising, if bad for Peter.
My thoughts exactly. I really do hope things warmed up between them in the 1750s, but it's quite possible that you're right that his memoirs "got disappeared" because they were too critical of post-1740 Fritz.
Definitely Fritz' favourite husband, too.
<3
Lovely! I was wondering about her fate in your AU.
Originally, she had none, but then I developed her for that fic, and now I think they're really good for each other and I ship them. :D So I spent a while banging my head against the question of how to get them to meet up at the right time, and finally came up with a solution.
Fredersdorf, alas, hasn't found a way into this fic, but given that Fritz gets to live with Wilhelmine (who, like him, never marries) AND Katte AND Keith AND (to at least some degree that I haven't decided) Suhm, Fredersdorf/Fritz might just have to fall through the cracks in this AU.
Re: Peter Keith - Villiers
It might, indeed, have been supposed, that this, namely to be the carrier of tittle-tattle would be the beau ideal of a diplomatist, as understood by such a person as that egregious scandal-monger and retailer of Court small-talk—tittle-tattle of the smallest and dirtiest kind—Horace Walpole, the younger. Accordingly, we find him delivering himself of the following observations:—
"Every attempt of our sending men of parts to circumvent him had succeeded ill; the King of Prussia was so far a little genius that he dreaded trying himself against talents. For this reason he used Legge and Sir Charles Williams in the most ungracious manner. Lord Hyndford, Mr. Villiers and Mitchell were the men that suited him ; and had he known him, he would not have feared Yorke. But the King made Mitchell introduce him, would talk to him on no business, and entertained him with nothing but a panegyric on Mitchell.”* Let any one who knows anything of the characters of the two men, imagine Frederic of Prussia circumvented by Sir Charles Hanbury Williams.
Bisset then goes on to say that if he wanted wits, Fritz had Voltaire, he didn't need a small scale wit like Hanbury Williams. Otoh, he liked Mitchell for being a relative straight shooter among diplomats and a brave man, and surely Villliers was of the same type. Then Bisset goes on to quote a few letters from Villiers written to Mitchell during the 7 Years War, when Villiers had become Lord Hyde:
We have no doubt it was the same manly frankness, joined to good sense, which made Villiers, as well as Mitchell, an efficient negotiator with Frederic. The following letters from him, when Lord Hyde, to Mitchell, we have great pleasure in being enabled to publish, as affording very unequivocal testimony to the private worth and sociable and amiable qualities of both the parties. As regards the writer they show, we think, in a very unostentatious way, both head and heart.(...)
MY DEAR MITCHELL, 27. June 1761
Though I can’t say that I am fond of unnecessary writing or unnecessary talking, I was happy in receiving a letter from an old friend that I love; having heard that his health which endured the follies of youth had been injured by ministerial toils. By matrimony it seems I am freed from both, and enjoy life in a plain, insignificant way, with a wife that I value, and three boys and a girl. I give no flattery and receive no favours: I am not out of humour, but see things, as far as my sight will reach, without prejudice or partiality; how long this state of annihilation will last, I can’t determine as I have taken no resolutions on it, but considering my great indolence and little merit, I shall scarce be again in an active station; so my friends will
scarce ever have any thing of me, but my wishes which would have accompanied your's had I known they had tended to Augsbourg, I mean for yourself, for as to me I am happy that Lord Egremont is at the head of our ministers there. A fitter man, or one more my friend, England has none at present. Lord Granville is much as he was as to spirits and dignity, at least to us who see him daily and partially. Perhaps you would perceive that time had made its impression and lessened both. We often talk you over and wish for the stories we are to have when you return. Lord Jersey has rather more gout than he had, in other respects the same. Lord Weymouth is in the bed chamber and becomes it. H. Thynne has not yet altered his course of life. He begins to want a rich wife and a sinecure place, and I am disposed to imagine he will succeed.
Notwithstanding this sameness among a few, don't conclude that it extends through the state; you will find, whenever you come among the great, many new plans and new persons. I wish my poor friends in your parts were as I left them. I often feel for you and for Fritsch as much as for any. Let those who are alive, who are not many, and fall in your way, be assured of my regard, esteem, and compassion, and be yourself convinced that I am unalterably yours,
H.
My wife begs her compliments of friendship and esteem. As to the business part of your letter it shall be executed; much is due to your care and friendship.
Remember, Charles Hanbury Wlliams ended his life in the third stage of syphilis, locked up as mad, so this is about disposing of those of his possessions stillin various European countries:
MY DEAR MITCHELL, 24th Sept. 1763:
.
I am very glad to find by your favour of the 3d, that your health is better, and that you are not so germanised but that you wish to be among us; all who know you, wish to have you, none more than my wife and myself. You will find terrible gaps in our acquaintance; death has made cruel havock ; we that remain according to Prussian discipline should stand the closer.
As to the boxes in question, which have given you so much trouble, but at the same time an opportunity to show a very kind and friendly disposition, I have desired Mrs. Capel Hanbury, whose husband I believe to be an executor and abroad, to employ an agent authorized at Hamburg to receive and forward the same and to reimburse all expenses thereon. I am an entire stranger to Sir Charles Hanbury Williams' testamentary disposition, and to all the affairs of that family, or should not have left anything from you so long undone. I am, with the truest esteem, my dear Mitchell, most faithfully yours,
H.
MY DEAR MITCHELL, 1st Dec. 1763
I suppose the inclosed expresses Mr. Hanbury's sense of your obliging and friendly care of his brother's boxes, and a desire that they may be forwarded to him (who has authority from the younger brother, George, the executor, to receive them), with an assurance that he, Mr. Capel Hanbury, will reimburse, on demand, all expenses incurred on this occasion. This at least was the substance of our conversation, which he desired I would transmit, but I thought it proper that he should pay his own acknowledgments, where so much was due.
This past yesterday morning in the presence of Lord Harcourt, who joined in extolling your sociable and worthy qualities, and agreed that it would be very comfortable to hear your adventures from yourself over a bottle or two of claret. If anybody besides yourself thinks of me where you are, you may confidently assert that I retain warm gratitude for Berlin, but I imagine most of my ministerial and military acquaintances are gone gradually or precipitately to their last home, and that my female friends, if any are left, too much wrinkled for one who can pick and chuse. Should ever opportunity be so blindly favourable as to permit you to lay my duty and respects at his Prussian Majesty's feet, you may with great truth add that I shall ever feel, as I ought, the honour done me by his Majesty's most gracious opinion. Is there any historian attempting to describe and keep pace with his wonderful atchievements?
The death of the King of Poland, or rather the choice of a new one, will probably open a field for another volume. Was I as young and as unengaged as when I first knew that part of the world, I would again embark in that agitated sea. It is impossible not to have a kind of longing to admire so great a Prince in the midst of such important affairs; but as it is, I must be contented to tell old stories to my wife and children, and to read and explain the Gazettes. Was there any hopes of your assistance in these domestick amusements we should all be the happier. My wife joins in hearty wishes for your welfare, and in that perfect esteem with which I unalterably remain,
My dear Mitchell,
Most cordially yours,
HYDE.
Bisset's right, Villiers comes across very sympathetic here, and in really friendly terms with Mitchell. Not to mention that he evidently has good memories of his time in Prussia. So it's both likely he befriended Peter in his own right, and/or that he could have followed a Mitchell recommendation. Bear in mind, too, that Mitchell could be absolutely withering about someone Fritz did appoint as envoy to England, to wit, Lentulus. ("The second is Major-General Lentulus (formerly in the Austrian service), a tall, handsome Swiss, very weak, very vain, and very indiscreet, but, which is worst of all, a servile flatterer, and capable of reporting to his master the greatest falsehoods, if he thinks they will please him. Of this I had the strongest proofs, when, in the year 1756, Lentulus was sent to England, to give an account of the battle of Lobositz (at which he was not present). On his return into Saxony, he made a most absurd report to the King, his master, concerning the then state of affairs in England, which, after many months labour and infinite pains, I had at last the good fortune totally to annihilate. -")
So at a guess, Peter would have been perceived by contrast by Villiers (and possibly Mitchell) as someone who wasn't just England-friendly but actually familiar with enough with the place to send reliable reports home to Prussia instead of talking rubbish and flattery a la Lentulus.
Re: Peter Keith - Villiers
I have discovered through some googling that Mitchell, Hanbury Williams, and Villiers were among the earliest (founding?) members of the Society of Dilettanti, the club that was founded in in 1730s by a group of young English gentleman who had met on the Grand Tour, whose purpose was to further the study of Greek and Roman art and archaeology, and the one of which Walpole said, "The nominal qualification for membership is having been in Italy, and the real one, being drunk." (I actually recognized that quote from The Club!)
Not having been to Italy, Peter can't have joined, but given that he spent the years 1734-1736 (my best estimate, based on his eulogy) in London, hanging out with intellectuals, it's not unlikely he joined some sort of club.
Villiers also makes appearances in that book on Andrew Mitchell and Anglo-Prussian diplomatic relations that you were going to try to track down.
So at a guess, Peter would have been perceived by contrast by Villiers (and possibly Mitchell) as someone who wasn't just England-friendly but actually familiar with enough with the place to send reliable reports home to Prussia instead of talking rubbish and flattery a la Lentulus.
Yep, this sounds very plausible.
Is there any historian attempting to describe and keep pace with his wonderful atchievements?
:D
Yes, but some of them will be more reliable than others.
Re: Peter Keith - Villiers
to be the carrier of tittle-tattle would be the beau ideal of a diplomatist
HEE.
if he wanted wits, Fritz had Voltaire, he didn't need a small scale wit like Hanbury Williams.
Lol! Well, it's true...
So at a guess, Peter would have been perceived by contrast by Villiers (and possibly Mitchell) as someone who wasn't just England-friendly but actually familiar with enough with the place to send reliable reports home to Prussia instead of talking rubbish and flattery a la Lentulus.
This seems very plausible!
The Braunschweig Perspective: Family Holidays
It was said to the Crown Prince on the 11th in jest: this princess could be a bride for him. He, however, replied: He wouldn't think of a bride for many years more, but if he had to choose one, he wouldn't allow himself to be dictated to. He would hope that his Majesty his father could imagine how he'd have liked it to get a wife forced on him against his will and would have to marry her. On the 18th, too of the King's body pages had to stand on the block for four hours at Neumarkt because they'd forgotten to bring the King's overcoat along in the morning for the parade when it had started to rain.
Stratemann includes a sympathy poem written for Fritz in late 1730. (I'll get to by whom and why.) In German. With a reply poem by Fritz. In German. Note that the poem contains nothing objectionable, they just hope Fritz will get through the dark times and that the sun of grace will shine on him again. Stratemann, interestingly, also provides the entire (French) text of the poem Katte wrote while under arrest at his regiment still in Berlin which you probably know from various biographies. Here it is:
Vers composés par Mr.de Katte, lors qu'il-etoit Prisonnier dans la Guarde des Gensd'Armes.
Cest toi fortune inconstante,
fausse Divinité!
Qui pour remplir nôtre attente.
charme nôtre Vanité;
Menteuse! dans tes promesses,
Injuste! dans tes largesses,
Terrible! dans tes revers,
Il n'-y-a jour qui-finisse
Sans nous montrer bon Caprice
par mille tours divers.
Celui qui la curiosité portera
a lire cette ecriture apprendra
que l'ecrivain a-été mit aux arrests
par l'Ordre desa Majesté
le 16me d'Auot 1730
non sans esperance de
se revoir bientôt
én liberté, quoique
la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé
Par le temps et la Patience
En obtient les fruits d'une bonne Conscience;
Si vous voulés savoir qui c'est,
Le nom de Katte vous l'apprendra,
Toujours constant en Esperance.
This so far is the sole passage in French. Since the next few entries are all Wilhelmine and family related, I'll fast forward here to another intriguing Katte mention, this time of Hans Heinrich, more than half a year later:
Berlin, June 31st 1731: Supposedly General Lieutenant v. Katte after leading his regiment at the revue before the King got off his horse and put his sword at the King's feet, and asked again for his demission, whereupon his majesty showed himself very much displeased. Rumor even has it (Hans Heinrich) got arrested as a consequence.
Now, obviously the arrest didn't happen - I don't think biographers would have overlooked that! -, but this is also the first time I heard about Hans Heinrich making this gesture. Since the revue was a really big public spectacle (this is also why Fritz was pissed off when Heinrich didn't salute him properly in the after the 7 Years War, remember), such a gesture would have been quite something. And does argue it's FW Hans Heinrich is struggling for forgive. Not to mention that it gives the lie to the "Hans Heinrich totally on board with FW executing his son!" version. All the more so since Stratemann is really the most FW friendly envoy ever.
Back to the winter of 1730/1731. Case in point: the same entry that has the AW anecdote also includes this story: It is said that his royal highness recently wrote a submissive letter to His Majesty his lord father, and in it, due to the now allowed changes regarding his earlier limited stay in Küstrin, has given submissive thanks, with many sayings from the bible, which is very seemly towards an once angry but now soothed father, and the King when the letter was read to him squeezed many tears from his eyes. His Majesty also supposedly declared that the entire country was open to his Fritz, he should be able to go and live within the country wherever he pleases.
This, mind, the same month that we know FW wrote the furious "if there would be 200 000 Kattes I'd have them beheaded" rant, had SD toast to England's demise and according to Guy Dickens said he was now sorry re: Katte whose death had to rest heavily on Fritz' conscience, what with Fritz being the one to blame.
S. notes that Ulrike is much in favor, being other than Charlotte FW's favourite daughter for now. So how does this family celebrate the Christmas of 1730:
December 23rd 1730: Her Majesty the Queen spent most of the day with her daughter, the oldest princess, who still hasn't recovered from her illnesss. The second and third prince, too, have come down with a strong cold and cough. The Crown Prince now presides over the government of Küstrin and reports almost daily from events there to the King's greatest pleasure. When his Royal Highness for the first time arrived at the council chamber, the second Secretary, as an acccomplished poet, had welcomed him with a few verses, whereupon the Prince briefly replied in the same fashion. These verses circulate only in a few hands, and I'm not yet allowed to get them, but I will try and will communicate them accordingly.
December 24th: The court jeweller has created presents in gold and silver in the worth of 12/m Reichstaler, of which the Queen had golden pieces for her cabinet, the princes and princesses had silver lates. Princess Charlotte, our Prince of Bevern's bride, received an expensive jewel, some silver kitchen supply, shovels and pliers, and a few pretty things to dress herself up. His Highness her groom shall receive a set of laces, next to a golden set Point d'Espange and other treats sent to him on the occasion of Holy Christ's feast. Now the Princess Ulrike had asked for a while to receive the King's portrait as a Christmas present, and it was among her gifts; when the third prince (i.e. Heinrich) noticed, he asked for a portrait as well, and did receive one, about which this princess showed herself somewhat disgusted. The King went on Christmas Eve in his own person with an entourage to the local Christmas Market and bought entertaining pleasantries for the little princes and princesses. (...) At the first day of Christmas, the widowed Madam General v. Dörfling had had carried a good bowl of cooked Sauerkraut with a roasted fat goose to the palace, as his Majestly loves to eat this dish, and on the holiday a bowl with beautiful apples, which has been received very graciously.
Okay, while I doubt Heinrich asking for Dad's portrait was about more than "big sis got something special, I'd like to have one of those as well", it does provide ammo together with the fish for supper at the start of the year if you want to make a case that FW at this early point indulged him somewhat. And of course FW going shopping for his kids shows him in full loving pater famiilias vein. Our editor chides Wilhelmine again for her harsh, unloving picture of her parents. However: at this point Stratemann still insists she's simply ill. In 1731, he'll finally admit she wasn't ill, she was locked up, for months, and I'll get to the conditions which honestly brought it home to me she really was no less imprisoned as Fritz had been, just in her own rooms. Now, in late 1730, talk is out FW wants to marry little Sophie to BayreuthFriedrich. Sophie therafter keeps getting referenced as the bride of the Erbprinz of Bayreuth. Then, on January 6th, Stratemann reports this rumor:
January 6th: After the King these last days told the Princess Sophie that the Prince Heir of Bayreuth desired to have her as his wife, she started to cry heartily and pronounced that she didn't want to marry at all, but wanted to stay with the clerical career for which she'd been meant earlier. The King supposedly returned to this: it couldn't happen, the bridegroom would soon arrive, who'd please her being a handsome prince, which the princess gave no reply to, but later towards her governess Fräulein de Joccourt sounded very sad about. Now the completely unfounded rumor is making the rounds that the oldest Princess, who is still sick, wishes to replace her sister as the future Abbess of Hertford.
This is one of the few times where I think we can pinpoint who is Stratemann's source for this story, i.e., Sophie's governess. Bear in mind Sophie is barely pubescent at this point. And destined to marry the godawful Schwedt cousin. Poor Sophie.
On January 13th, Stratemann finally admits in his report that a) Fritz' release and rejoining the family isn't so imminent after all, and b) Wilhelmine isn't sick, she's in disgrace, locked up, and still not reconciled with Dad.
Of the Crown Prince, nothing has been said, and so it doesn't seem that he will appear at the 24th on the occasion of his birthday in Potsdam after all. The oldest Princess remains completely in her room, and thus circumstances argue that a complete reconciliation on both parts is still full of impediments. Her Majesty the Queen, however, enjoys with her husband the King a most endearing complete harmony and bliss, and thus rumor has it that she's expecting another child.
Yeah, not so much, Stratemann.
January 27th: As soon as the King left for Potsdam on the 19th, the Queen went to the oldest Princess, which she hadn't seen during the fourteen days spent with the King, and this most regarded Princess, who hasn't left her room since the 27th of August, which means in five months, went downstairs for to the Queen on the following Sunday the 20th, which I guess the King must have permitted; still, one is assured that the King does not yet permit (Wilhelmine) to appear in front of him, and the much hoped for complete reconciliation with the Crown Prince still seems to be far away; and yet the young gentleman lives very pleasantly at Küstrin and is so popular among so many that the artisans and low workers have said: they want to donate a penny of their daily salaries to his royal highness; then the nobility in the entire country keeps sending food supplies; in the midst of this the King took from the Prince the sole much loved valet left and transfered the later to Halle to get an appointment as Torschreiber (Gate Secretary, literally) with 30 Reichstaler per year as a salary, about which he (the valet) pretended to be embarrassed, but in the end accepted it with devotion.
February sees the rumor that Bayreuth Friedrich (who, if you recall, isn't in Germany, he's on his Grand Tour) has died, which of course isn't true.
On March 10th, Wilhelmine is still in disgrace: The reconciliation of the oldest royal princess has still made no progress, and there isn't much hope for it; by now, the court preachers have received an order to pray with her once a week in her room, but not to preach to her. She hasn't received communion for eight months now, and since August 16th has not been allowed to see any ladies in her chamber other than the governesses of the royal princesses and the Queen's Dames d'honeur. According to rumor, she tries to pass her time with music.
Not receiving communion might not seem a harsh punishment to us, but it's actually really nasty, because if Wilhelmine had died during that time, she'd have died in a damned state. Anyway, see what I mean about Wihelmine being kept as much a prisoner as Fritz? Actually more so, since he gets to attend and work in the Küstrin government, which might not be the most thrilling of occupations but is at least something other than sit and brood in a room.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Family Holidays
Well, aren't you the tease. :P (Kidding: I think you meant to include it and forgot?)
Anyway, I went and looked it up, and I can see why you wanted to build suspense: the Neumark War and Domain Chamber. Whose director was--
Hille?!
I did not see that one coming, I admit.
More later! In the meantime, thank you for these latest glorious envoy writeups.
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YES I KNEW IT oh Hans Heinrich :( <3
oh man I wish we'd had that report on Christmas 1730 when we'd written our ficsHer Majesty the Queen, however, enjoys with her husband the King a most endearing complete harmony and bliss
...whoa.
Anyway, see what I mean about Wihelmine being kept as much a prisoner as Fritz? Actually more so
Yeah. Poor Wilhelmine :(
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Incidentally, I forgot to mention, in the December 2nd 1730 entry when Stratemann is still going along with the "Wilhelmine is just really sick, not locked up in her room" pretense, he has this rumor to tell: The said princess is still bound to her sickbed, and for a few days now has been inconvenienced with undescribably strong headaches, and feels pain her her arms and legs, which everyone ascribes to a great alteration, though the fact the execution of the late Lt. v. Katte has been hidden from her, despite her often asking about him. ("ob sie sich gleich öfters nach dessen Zustand erkundigt".
Now: I'm perfectly willing to believe Wilhemine had headaches along with being locked up. She suffered from migraines often in her life, and until shortly before Katte's execution, there was a real prospect her brother would be killed. If I'm right and Madame de Joucoulles, the governess for the three youngest princesses (Amalie, Ulrike, Sophie) was Stratemann's source for the stories about the royal family, she may have tried to earn her bribery money with some truths (Wilhelmine isn't doing so well), while keeping mum about the larger point (the public hasn't seen her for months because she's basically a prisoner, too). Or Stratemann is quite aware of that (after all, the British envoy in his simultanous reports is), but in his dispatches home to Braunschweig keeps with the official version because he doesn't want to risk the newly secured Charlotte engagement by pissing FW off if his mail is read. (Not to mention that he may or may not have already had his eyes on the main marital prize, Fritz, since obviously the English marriage would not happen, and FW would look for a bride elsewhere since Fritz was still his successor.)
...but that bit about Katte is what truly intrigues me, because I can't think of why either Stratemann or his source (whether or not the source is Joucoulles) should make that up. On the contrary, a story of Wilhelmine asking repeatedly how Katte is doing could be risky to her reputation (given that FW in the big homecoming scene accused her of having an affair with him), which Stratemann at no point gives the impression of wanting to do.
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OH GOD, you're right!
I'm laughing so hard right now.
Now: I'm perfectly willing to believe Wilhemine had headaches along with being locked up. She suffered from migraines often in her life, and until shortly before Katte's execution, there was a real prospect her brother would be killed.
Oh yeah, and in her memoirs, she recorded that she didn't know whether *she* would have to face a public interrogation. And Sonsine is getting threatened too. I'm sure she had all KINDS of psychosomatic symptoms. :/
...but that bit about Katte is what truly intrigues me, because I can't think of why either Stratemann or his source (whether or not the source is Joucoulles) should make that up. On the contrary, a story of Wilhelmine asking repeatedly how Katte is doing could be risky to her reputation (given that FW in the big homecoming scene accused her of having an affair with him)
Hmm, yes, that is interesting. And you're right, that is an unlikely thing to make up. Perhaps she thought that Katte's fate functioned as a barometer of FW's mood, as it pertained to both her and Fritz. Especially since she *was* linked to Katte in this affair: with the letters and incriminating evidence.
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HAHAHAHA yeah I totally buy that!
...you know, Oster does kind of bring home to me what you've told me before, that FW really did love SD and the whole idea of being a family man in his own dysfunctional way. Sigh.
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IKR? Though on the other hand, my favorite part about this fandom is that the more time we spend in it, the more we discover. <3
But wait! The Stratemann volume says the reports cover the period up to 1733--surely he has something to say about the infamous Christmas of 1732!
WHAT. It skips from May 6, 1732 to April 29, 1733. Stratemann, like Lehndorff in Wust, you have failed in your gossipy duties to posterity. Tsk.
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He probably didn't want to report on fistulas!
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He probably didn't want to report on fistulas!
Like
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Oh, THAT incident! That's actually ringing a bell; I've read that somewhere before.
Hmm. How many body pages does a king have at one time? I feel like we're increasing the odds that one of them was my low-key fave Peter Keith. Otoh, it says "two of", which means not all, which means perhaps not Peter. Sucks to be them regardless. (I'm just trying to do my duty as biographer.)
Stratemann, interestingly, also provides the entire (French) text of the poem Katte wrote while under arrest at his regiment still in Berlin which you probably know from various biographies.
I do, but I think this is the first time I've seen the whole thing, thank you!
Except the editor has omitted a line:
non sans esperance de
se revoir bientôt
én liberté, quoique
la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé
Par le temps et la Patience
"la façon d'ont-il-a-été gardé" is grammatically incomplete, has no punctuation before the capital letter of "Par", and thanks to Wilhelmine, we actually know what it said: "the manner in which he is guarded seems to prognosticate something fatal."
It's good to have the full thing (mostly)! Actually, since Wilhelmine wrote in French, I should be able to supply the missing text.
lui fasse augurer quelque chose de funeste.
Oh, this is interesting: she presents the material in a different order, where only the last 5 lines are in verse, and the ones immediately before them, from Celui qu la curiosité on, are in prose, which she says were written below that short verse. The first several lines of the poem, which were new to me, she doesn't reproduce at all.
Berlin, June 31st 1731: Supposedly General Lieutenant v. Katte after leading his regiment at the revue before the King got off his horse and put his sword at the King's feet, and asked again for his demission, whereupon his majesty showed himself very much displeased. Rumor even has it (Hans Heinrich) got arrested as a consequence.
Now, obviously the arrest didn't happen - I don't think biographers would have overlooked that! -, but this is also the first time I heard about Hans Heinrich making this gesture.
Wooow. Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Since the revue was a really big public spectacle (this is also why Fritz was pissed off when Heinrich didn't salute him properly in the after the 7 Years War, remember), such a gesture would have been quite something.
Yes, seriously, WOW. Go Hans Heinrich. I'm glad that you don't know what happened to your other sons; you really didn't have good luck there.
And does argue it's FW Hans Heinrich is struggling for forgive. Not to mention that it gives the lie to the "Hans Heinrich totally on board with FW executing his son!" version. All the more so since Stratemann is really the most FW friendly envoy ever.
Yes! More evidence! To go with the commissioned painting and the letters we have from Hans Heinrich, I'm pretty convinced. Plus it makes your theory even more likely as to why Hans Hermann is still in that same wooden coffin from Küstrin, instead of prettying it up to look like a normal death.
Okay, while I doubt Heinrich asking for Dad's portrait was about more than "big sis got something special, I'd like to have one of those as well", it does provide ammo together with the fish for supper at the start of the year if you want to make a case that FW at this early point indulged him somewhat.
Yep! I imagine that had changed by 1736, year of raiding Fritz's larder?
in the midst of this the King took from the Prince the sole much loved valet left
Wait, what? Another much-loved valet? Do we know anything about this individual? Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Now I have a headcanon that the Münchow and/or Lepel got to pick the servant, and they looked around for someone who would be extra nice to this poor abused boy and future monarch whom they want to stay on the good side of.
Man, between this and the letter to Wilhelmine, I'm thinking Fredersdorf did *not* go to Berlin on any of Fritz's visits, at least the early ones, in disguise as a lackey or no. Yikes. :/
Not receiving communion might not seem a harsh punishment to us, but it's actually really nasty, because if Wilhelmine had died during that time, she'd have died in a damned state.
Never use religion to bring comfort when you can use it a stick to wield, says FW.
This was in Oster, which I got to the other day, but thank you for spelling out what it really *meant*. I am never quite clear on the precise theology of things like Pietism (ironically, I know far more about the finer theological points of obscure early Christian schisms than more modern denominations).
Anyway, see what I mean about Wihelmine being kept as much a prisoner as Fritz? Actually more so, since he gets to attend and work in the Küstrin government, which might not be the most thrilling of occupations but is at least something other than sit and brood in a room.
Yep, it definitely sucked in ways that his didn't. On the one hand, she was in proximity to FW and had nothing to occupy her time with besides music (though I like to think that people were smuggling her books, too); on the other, she had music and at least a couple people she loved with her. It sucks to be both of them.
UGH.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Family Holidays
I wonder whether that means that whoever was her source and wrote it down for her - I imagine Wilhelmine didn't go herself to an army barrack - copied it badly, or whether she was just told it verbally and writes it out of her memory twenty years later? That is assuming Stratemann has the correct version, but since he's writing at the time and has no problem copying down the exact text since no one should object to the Braunschweig envoy doing such a thing, I'm assuming so.
Yeah, I gather that didn't make it into the Hans Heinrich biographical monograph you picked up at Wust.
Nope. Would have blown quite a hole into his theory.
WOW. Go Hans Heinrich.
That's what I think. I mean, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he has mixed feelings about Fritz as well, but mostly this points to him struggling to reconcile the loyalty he feels he ows his sovereign with being a grieving father who thinks his son, while deserving some punishment (I think Hans Heinrich would have been okay with some years in prison - well, ashamed, but okay in terms of considering it just), was taken from him by this man, and not higher justice.
Your plan for the AU in which he and Hans Herrmann have a heart to heart later in life looks more plausible than ever.
Yep! I imagine that had changed by 1736, year of raiding Fritz's larder?
So I would gather. Not least because there's a big difference between a four years old child who until Ferdinand is the baby of the family and a ten years old child. FW's imagine of himself as a loving dad can be amplified by adoring small children. (Note that little Wilhelmine wrote him affectionate "dear Papa" letters, too, when she was around that age and older.) Who get Christmas treats, and who get indulged when they ask for favors (like AW for the pardon) or gifts. Otoh, ten years olds who like books and music are a different matter. Stratemann's reports don't extend to that period, but younger Seckendorff is writing into his journal then, and the only two kid-related anecdotes I recall is a) young AW fainting in the tobacco parliament, and b) Ferdinand (who's the indulged five years old then) cheeking Grumbkow about handing over bread and being a Field Marshal. (Unless we count "Junior"'s pronouncement that Heinrich and Ferdinand have a bad nature, Ferdinand is the worst and AW is good natured but with the education of a peasant.) What we do have, otoh, from that era is FW's statement - quoted in several biographies - that he doesn't make predictions about his children except about AW who would be an "honnete homme" and a great one, surely. So I'm still going with the assumption that the indulgence for Heinrich on those two occasions in 1730 was based on him being the baby of the family, the position he just lost to Ferdinand who however was an actual baby and couldn't yet interact with Dad, and once Heinrich left tiny cutie phase behind and developed interests that were not FW's, he faded into the background with the other kids, with AW the constant male favourite and the female favourite being Charlotte and Ulrike in turns.
Wait, what? Another much-loved valet? Do we know anything about this individual? Was this just the random Küstrin servant that FW said should come shave him and for a brief period wasn't allowed to even sleep in the same room as Fritz, but had to visit daily?
Must be, since I don't think the valet he had before, the one who also shows up in the interrogation protocols, was with him in Küstrin at any point?
It sucks to be both of them.
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him. He had all the power, and no, not every word Wilhelmine wrote in the memoirs was true, but she probably was as accurate as most people looking back at very traumatic events years later and using the writing as a chance to vent and in lack of actual therapy.
It's also always important to remember that while many a contemporary thought FW was over the top with his reactions, both Fritz and Wilhelmine would still have gotten the message that it was his right to treat them this way both as monarch and as father from all sides. And while they hated him, they didn't, I fear, ever stop loving him as well and wanting his approval and a "Well done, you".
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well. And, says, Hervey, it was clear to everyone hearing this that G2 was thinking of himself both as the cardinal example of a wronged father and a wronged son. Meanwhile, FW, only child of two parents who despite being very different from him both seem to have loved him and whose most most debatable action was a) to send him to live with his cousins for a while, and b) given him a strict Calvinist as a teacher when he was ten: Of course there are no bad fathers! Fathers should only be loved and listened to and adored! There are no exceptions!
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Nope. Would have blown quite a hole into his theory.
*g*
mostly this points to him struggling to reconcile the loyalty he feels he ows his sovereign with being a grieving father who thinks his son, while deserving some punishment (I think Hans Heinrich would have been okay with some years in prison - well, ashamed, but okay in terms of considering it just), was taken from him by this man, and not higher justice.
Your plan for the AU in which he and Hans Herrmann have a heart to heart later in life looks more plausible than ever.
Agreed on Hans Heinrich's likely psychology here. And because he doesn't agree with Hans Hermann's decision, and because he doesn't have the sense of pain and outrage at his loss to counterbalance his conviction that Hans Hermann was in the wrong, the heart-to-heart is a deathbed forgiveness secene and not a "Well done, son." But it's enough for Hans Hermann, who, due to Hans Heinrich not seeing him for 10 years and not wanting to commit certain things to mail, has been wondering just *how* angry his father was with him.
What helps reconcile Hans Heinrich and certain other family members is that while it was certainly disloyalty, no one believes it was cowardice, especially not once the full story of Katte's heroic role protecting Fritz during the escape gets out. And now he's got a royal pardon from AW, so it's all good, they can reconcile and part on good father-son terms.
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him.
I'm not just side-eyeing, I'm FUMING. Those poor kids! The victim-blaming! SD was no angel, but she was definitely an abuse victim too!
It's also always important to remember that while many a contemporary thought FW was over the top with his reactions, both Fritz and Wilhelmine would still have gotten the message that it was his right to treat them this way both as monarch and as father from all sides.
Indeed.
Fritz: And as your current monarch and standing in loco parentis to my siblings and niblings, I would like to announce that I've taken this lesson to heart.
And while they hated him, they didn't, I fear, ever stop loving him as well and wanting his approval and a "Well done, you".
Yep. Totally typical for abusive families.
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well.
LOL this is so great. Rationalization for the win!
Meanwhile, FW, only child of two parents who despite being very different from him both seem to have loved him and whose most most debatable action was a) to send him to live with his cousins for a while, and b) given him a strict Calvinist as a teacher when he was ten: Of course there are no bad fathers! Fathers should only be loved and listened to and adored! There are no exceptions!
THERAPY FOR EVERYONE
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Must be, since I don't think the valet he had before, the one who also shows up in the interrogation protocols, was with him in Küstrin at any point?
Gummersbach? Not that I know of, and more to the point, he was instrumental in preventing the escape, so I wonder if he would still be "most-loved" at that point. Maybe, but until we find out it was him, I stand by my headcanon that Fritz's sympathetic jailers found him a servant who would, I don't know, help smuggle letters to Wilhelmine out.
Also, if it's someone he met at Küstrin, then they only had 4 months to become "much-loved", but also, those are circumstances under which you would very quickly latch on to someone, so... :/
I'm so glad Fredersdorf came along later that year, and FW didn't catch on.
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Good question! I've just compared the two French texts, and my impression is that they're way too similar for me to think Wilhelmine is recording something she heard orally long ago. The two transcriptions look to me like the product of two different written copies of the text, where scribal errors and/or different interpretations of not totally legible handwriting crept in.
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I mean, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that he has mixed feelings about Fritz as well
Oh sure, I totally believe that. I think he'd have to be a saint not to have mixed feelings when his son would still hvae been alive if Fritz hadn't gotten him involved. But that's distinct from actually executing him. >:(
Absolutely. And that's why I'm majorly sideeying those editors and historians who are complaining about her being a bad daughter, or hysterical, and that poor FW was the one to be pitied, with his wife and two oldest ganging up on him.
:((((((((((((( Yeah, no.
On a lighter note, Hervey in his memoirs has this passage of G2 ranting about how lousy sons are the worst, absolute scum, fathers are martyrs, and then he suddenly recalls his own dear old dad and adds, yes, okay, there are bad fathers and good sons as well.
Hah! Hervey, you always come through with amusement value. Lol.
The Braunschweig Perspective: On the Wings of an Angel
At once when they arrived His Majesty ordered the fourth princess, Sophie, the bride of the Prince of Bayreuth and the youngest Princess Amalie to him, and when he saw the Princess Sophie, he was somwhat surprised at her size. Two months ago, she'd entered her thirteenth year, and has grown taller than her three older sisters, and so the King said to her: Sophie! What have you done to grow so tall, you grow taller than me, let me see your shoes. When he saw her shoes had heels of about two inches, the King said: Away with those! You don't need them anymore. On the next morning, the King visited the smallest prince, who is now nearly a year old, and took along the two above named princesses. When the King noticed that the Princess Sophie wasn't as tall anymore as the other day and saw with appreciation the flat shoes, he told her very sweet things.
And finally, Wilhelmine gets a break:
At last the royal decision regarding the oldest Princess has been made that she was allowed to receive communion at a service to be held in her chamber, which she'd wished to do in the cathedral with the rest of the people but has been refused to for unknown causes; when the second court preacher Steinberg this last Sunday held a service in the audience room of the princess, her royal highness, her stewardess Fr. v. Wittenhorst-Sonsfeld, the Queen's lady of honor Fr. v. Bodenbruch, and the Baroness de Joccourt, the governess of the three younger princesses, attended. One still hopes the Princess after having spent eight months in her retreat would be reconciled, but this hasn't happened yet, but it is expected to happen within the next four weeks and the arrival of the foreign dignitaries.
Again, I say the Baroness de Joccourt is Stratemann's likely source, not just for these but for all the stories featuring the kids.
More stories from Küstrin about how everyone, not just local nobility but French, Dutch, British and from the other German states keeps sending food and drink to Fritz but under incognito names and everyone is rooting for FW to release him.
Poor Gundling dies, and Stratemann gives a description of his ghastly funeral. Gundling's arch enemy and successor, Fassmann, who ridiculed him in a speech at said funeral quickly finds out what it means to be FW's new punching bag. He's sent fool garnments and refuses to wear them (Stratemann: But they were presents! How could he!). Flash foward to July, and Fassmann has had it, and we get a nasty reminder of 18th century antisemitism to boot:
Councillor Faßman who'd been appointed Court Fool has fled, because he does not want to be a Bouffon de la Cour, and it is said he has deserted to England. Most recently, he had a clash at Potsdam with a Jew named Marcus who has often been used by the court for such offices, and had to receive a slap in the face by the later, which the Jew had been licensed to do by a higher authority, whereupon (Fassmann) threw him on the ground and kicked him, and tore at his hair and strangled him so much that he'd have killed him if (Marcus) had not been saved by the surrounding officers. Faßmann then said to the King: he'd once had set the condition that he didn't want to be vexed by anyone, no matter how high ranking, much less by an infamous Jew, and thus he's left royal service and did not return.
Back to spring:
May 31st: After the arrival of the Prince of Dessau at Potsdam on the 10th, the later along with the Duke of Bevern has had a long conversation with the King which mostly concerned the reconciliation with the Crown Prince and the oldest Princess. The King supposedly remained harsh and wasn't movable, but one still flatters oneself: that his Majesty will be moved by these two best of princes. If it comes to this, the Prince of Dessau will go to Küstrin himself and pick the Crown Prince up there. Regarding the oldest Princess, it's said that within a few days, her destiny will be cleared up. A few days ago, she has been visited by General and Secret Councillor of his Majesty v. Grumbkow as well as the General Leutnants v. Borck, v. Podewils and v. Thulemeier, all four arriving in a chaise without announcement at the palace, and spent over an hour with the Princess. The sisters of the Princess and their governesses as well as her stewardess v. Wittenhorst-Sonsfeld and two of the Queen's ladies had been present at first then suddenly all had retired from the room and some with them greatly upset so that they had to take the red powder by Stahl. Of the proposition which was made to the Princess by these ministers of the cabinet, there is much conflicting rumor. Some claim to guess that a new marriage has been proposed to the Princess, either with the ruling Margrave of Brandenburg-Bayreuth (i.e. BayreuthFriedrich's DAD) or with his Prince3 Heir who otherwise had been meant for the fourth Princess. But everything is still uncertain, and it's been covered up. But one thing is true; when the Princess came down to supper this evening, she wasn't, as she used to since allowed to supper, in a cheered up mood, but completely withdrawn in thoughts, and hardly spoke a word during the entire meal.
Editor Richard Wolff: the Margravine gives one of her typical exaggarated descriptions of this meeting in her memoirs of these four gentlemen trying to "bully" her into marriage.
And lo, it's public submission time for Wilhelmine:
Before the arrival of the King, the oldest, the fourth and the sixth Princess (and the first one after an encounter with the Queen) positioned themselves in his Majesty's rooms and received the King; when the oldest Princess threw herself at the King's feet and pleaded with his Majesty: to forgive her with what she has angered her merciful Papa; and squeezed out some tears while saying this, at which the King, too has cried a bit, and thus this Princess, after a retreat to her room of nine months, has not only been received again with grace but has now been put in new circumstances; but what will happen next and whose bride she shall be, time will show. The Queen has been received by the above named three princesses and Her Majesty had been very glad to find the oldest Princess, whom she hasn't seen for four months, reconciled with the King, for we all know that this Princess above all others has been close to the Queen's heart. And now the only thing lacking is that the Crown Prince, too, will be released into Freedom, to make everyone's joy complete.
In fairness, as of this point, anyone would have said Wilhelmine had been SD's favourite daughter and confidant, given not just SD pushing the English marriage for her. Still, the contrast between SD resenting the hell out of Wilhelmine's accepting the Bayreuth marriage in rl (and in younger Seckendorff's description when Wilhelmine is already married, so we don't have to rely on Wilhelmine's own word about this) and Stratemann's description is striking.
One hadn't believe the affair at first; but since the oldest Princess has submitted herself completely to the King's will, she's been gifted with much rich clothing, a purse and other precious triflings; and thus there can be no doubt (as to the reconciliation). Princess Ulrike, who since a year has been the King's greatest favourite and had been preferred to her older sister Sophie, has now been degraded due to a minor mistake. Despite her being only eleven years of Age, she still possess a great mind and thus a noble spirit; and thus she's very touchy about this and torments herself: at the King's demand, the Queen has taken the diamond earrings which the Queen of Sweden had given (Ulrike) some years ago away, and then she had to sit at the table with her youngest sister Princess (Amalie) despite having been allowed to sit for a year at the King's table.
On June 5th, Wilhelmine's engagement to Bayreuth Friedrich officially takes place. Stratemann thinks Bayreuth Friedrich only learned at the last minute he wouldn't get Sophie but Wilhelmine. To truly appreciate his description of the engagement party, bear in mind SD hated Bayreuth Friedrich's guts. (Or rather, hated that he married her daughter, making him the symbol of her defeat in the marital battle.)
The noble engaged couple sat at the high point of the table, and the King's pleasure was above measure. His highness the Duke of Würtemberg emptied a large cup while toasting the health of the engaged couple. After supper, the groom led his bride to the ballroom, but the King at once took her from him and started the dance with her; then he danced with the Princess Bride of Bevern (i.e. Charlotte, and then with Princess Sophie. The first two were warmly embraced by the King, and they kissed his Majesty's hands, which was repeated twice or thrice. When the two youngest princesses saw that the King had not asked them to dance, they, too, kissed his hands, and thus the King has danced with his five princess daughters en suite. The noble groom had been told by the King to ask the Queen to dance, but when her Majesty excused herself, the Prince Heir shrugged; but when the King tried again by telling her that the King asked her to do this, she no more refused but danced with the Heir Prince, whereupon Her Majesty did the same thing with the Duke of Würtemberg and the Duke of Bevern, and finally with the King himself, who held both of her hands, during the dance itself, too. He kept kissing her hand, and the ball ended only at three in the morning.
Meanwhile ,the British envoy: Wilhelmine looked pale and if she'd faint the entire time, and the Queen was upset and almost in tears, and the King glowered. Taking the British bias into acccount, I suppose the truth was somewhere in between, but Stratemann's polyanna-ness is still striking. Mind you, FW able to dance with all five of his daughters is not a picture one usually has of him.
Wilhelmine gets supportive poetry (in German) too, on the occasion of her engagement. An anonymous poem is making the rounds according to Stratemann:
One sees the secretly circulating verses that an adroit poet has made on the occasion of the oldest Princess' future departure for Bayreuth, and which go thusly:
Geh, Englische Prinzeß! nach deinem werthen Francken,
Gott und die Nach-Welt wird dir deine Treue dancken,
Indeßen bleibt dein Ruhm der ganzen Welt bekandt:
Denn wo Du lebst, da ist das rechte Engelland.
The poem makes a pun between "Englisch" as in "English", and "Englisch" as in old fashioned German for "Engelhaft" in modern German, "Angelic". You might recall that Isabella makes a similar pun in a letter to Maria Christina. I'll try my hand regardless. First the literal translation:
Go, English/Angelic Princess! with your worthy Franconian,
God and posterity will thank you for your loyalty,
and in the meantime, your fame is known to the entire world,
for where you live, that's where the true country of the English/Angels is.
Verse:
Oh English Princess, go with your Franconian man,
God knows your loyalty, and posterity will thank you then.
Still, all the world knows of your fame:
For where you live, that's Angelcountry all the same.
Now according to Stratemann, FW is hell bent on making Wilhelmine and future Margrave have sex and consumate the marriage before it's a marriage. Why? Because that would make it legal as a marriage, and rumor has it the Brits are making trouble by pointing to Fritz' of Wales' earlier claim to Wilhelmine's hand, which supposedly invalidates her current engagement. Mind you, having read Hervey's memoirs where the whole thing only gets half a sentence mention, I really doubt that, but I can see SD spreading such a rumor via her daughter's governesses, which, see above, I think were Stratemann's sources.
And then, come August, we get the big Fritz submission, of which Stratemann reports nothing new. That's as far as I got.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: On the Wings of an Angel
Ugh! Gundling is one of those (quite a few) things I will just never forgive FW for :( Though lol Stratemann :)
Editor Richard Wolff: the Margravine gives one of her typical exaggarated descriptions of this meeting in her memoirs of these four gentlemen trying to "bully" her into marriage.
*facepalm*
Ugh, wow.
Meanwhile ,the British envoy: Wilhelmine looked pale and if she'd faint the entire time, and the Queen was upset and almost in tears, and the King glowered. Taking the British bias into acccount, I suppose the truth was somewhere in between, but Stratemann's polyanna-ness is still striking.
Poor Wilhelmine :(
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: On the Wings of an Angel
I feel like this is a sign that nobody considers his current diet adequate! Though that could admittedly be an SD-type complaint about the appropriateness of the food rather than the amount.
He's sent fool garnments and refuses to wear them (Stratemann: But they were presents! How could he!).
SIGH.
and tore at his hair and strangled him so much that he'd have killed him if (Marcus) had not been saved by the surrounding officers.
SIGH.
SD resenting the hell out of Wilhelmine's accepting the Bayreuth marriage in rl (and in younger Seckendorff's description when Wilhelmine is already married, so we don't have to rely on Wilhelmine's own word about this)
Thank you for reminding me of this. It's good to know when Wilhelmine is backed by independent sources.
Meanwhile, the British envoy: Wilhelmine looked pale and if she'd faint the entire time, and the Queen was upset and almost in tears, and the King glowered. Taking the British bias into acccount, I suppose the truth was somewhere in between, but Stratemann's polyanna-ness is still striking.
Hah. It's so good to have multiple sources with differing biases.
You might recall that Isabella makes a similar pun in a letter to Maria Christina.
I had forgotten that, but will always remember the famous "Non Angli sed Angeli" quip attributed to Gregory the Great many centuries earlier.
FW is hell bent on making Wilhelmine and future Margrave have sex and consumate the marriage before it's a marriage. Why? Because that would make it legal as a marriage, and rumor has it the Brits are making trouble by pointing to Fritz' of Wales' earlier claim to Wilhelmine's hand, which supposedly invalidates her current engagement. Mind you, having read Hervey's memoirs where the whole thing only gets half a sentence mention, I really doubt that, but I can see SD spreading such a rumor via her daughter's governesses, which, see above, I think were Stratemann's sources.
Yep. In her memoirs, Wilhelmine has SD coming to her on the morning of her wedding and telling her, "Whatever you do, DON'T sleep with your husband. We need to be able to nullify this marriage later so you can
fulfill your destiny of living the kind of life I wanted to livemarry your cousin!"Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
So, uh, hi! I'm Jana, I've talked to
I'm 20 years old and about to enter my third semester of history and art history at uni. I've been interested in Fritz since I was about 13, but, being 13, I didn't get many proper sources until way later, so all of my knowledge is kind of... a huge mess of anecdotes and a few primary sources that I read way later. I am currently attempting to solidify my knowledge on Fritz with more books and more primary sources and honestly, your page has been a goldmine, it's SO fun to read!
My first language is German, I'm alright at English and I can manage some French. I've drawn some comics about historical anecdotes years ago and intend on maybe doing so again and, as of right now, I'm in the middle of painting a pop art style portrait of Katte to match the pop art style poster of Fritz that my parents got me from the Deutsches Historisches Museum. That kind of sums up my level of weird.
Uh... yeah! I really hope I picked the right place to post this!
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
I've seen you around on tumblr Fritz fandom, so I immediately recognized your name when you commented on my fic, and I was very pleased!
You guys, I thought I had linked to this piece back when I put together my collation of my favorite tumblr links, but I guess I didn't?? Anyway, enjoy it now. :D
being 13, I didn't get many proper sources until way later, so all of my knowledge is kind of... a huge mess of anecdotes and a few primary sources that I read way later
We've all been down that road! We're constantly revising our beliefs and our opinions as new information turns up. Be aware that even some of the information in
honestly, your page has been a goldmine, it's SO fun to read!
Yay, that's what we hoped when we put it together! You said you had a particular interest in Fredersdorf; have you been had time to check out his tag? We have a copy of his correspondence with Fritz (I think you said you had acquired the same volume) in our pdf library, and
Anyway, I don't remember if anything under the Fredersdorf tag says why we don't believe he was dismissed for financial irregularities, but we don't. :P Lehndorff doesn't know anything about it, and there's a distinct lack of mentions in any of our actual sources, so we're waiting until we find evidence before we subscribe to any belief in that. Citation needed!
Also fic. We have written several Fredersdorf fics between the three of us, some in which he features and some in which he's a secondary character. And to think that last year, he had no tag in AO3! (He's getting nominated and requested again for Yuletide this year.)
the pop art style poster of Fritz
The Andy Warhol one? Oh,
Pop art Katte sounds great!
Above all, we're happy to have you and look forward to sharing the Fritz fun! :D
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
I've seen you around on tumblr Fritz fandom
I have to admit that I somewhat forgot that my AO3 profile and my old art blog have the same name :'D Oh boy, there's some stuff on there... Though I'm glad to know people like it a bit! :D
I made new and more silly doodles (like a very Cursed looking Heinrich) on my last vacation to Brandenburg, I might upload those at some point (to my new tumblr though...)
Fredersdorf
I have not read through the Fredersdorf tag yet, but I definitely will :D I do have a Richter copy of the correspondence from 1926. I'm really glad I found it, it's in great condition and the few letters I've read so far were very interesting and lead to me and a group of friends referring to Fritz as Friech for the past few months (makes it easier to differentiate between the five different Friedrichs we talk about).
My newest acquisition is a 1936 copy of Der Kronprinzenprozess by Carl Hinrichs, which lists a bunch of primary sources, some of which I did not know yet, and would probably break my heart for good if I read through it in one sitting.
The Andy Warhol one?
The one I have is this one which the DHM apparently photographed in a basement, using a phone from 2012.
I put it up in my new apartment because it's something I had a frame for and I have this random pink wall... Couldn't figure out what else to put on the other walls and my colleague suggested painting something in the same style, sooo Katte it is.
It's quite a process since I've never worked with the grid method, acrylic paint, canvas boards OR pop art before, but I have some hope left that it's going to look good eventually. Hopefully. Please.
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
We are Heinrich fans, bring it on!
My newest acquisition is a 1936 copy of Der Kronprinzenprozess by Carl Hinrichs, which lists a bunch of primary sources, some of which I did not know yet, and would probably break my heart for good if I read through it in one sitting.
IT BROKE MY HEART. And all I did was read the
The one I have is this one which the DHM apparently photographed in a basement, using a phone from 2012.
Oh, wow, that one is new to me. So pop art of Fritz is a thing! See, this fandom is sooo educational.
sooo Katte it is.
Excellent choice! Pop art of Katte needs to be a thing. PS, I accept fanart treats for fandom exchanges like Yuletide. :D (Damn, I need to finish my letter. How am I supposed to participate in fanfic exchanges and study German and comment on German reading group and read and reply to
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
Yay! Heinrich is my Problematic Fave :D
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
Browsing through tumblr, i did see some of your beautiful art, and so I’m doubly glad you’re joining us!
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
And when this whole thing started, I knew... just about zero about Fritz, I knew that he was maybe king of Prussia?? (At which point mildred started telling me about how he was king In Prussia for a while, but anyway...) So I've been indebted to
Feel free to chime in whenever and wherever you want! We do often have several threads going at once, so mildred usually suggests tracking the current post so you'll be informed of whenever new comments are added. (I think it's that little bell at the bottom of the post proper; being the host of the salon means that I don't have to track myself!) I also usually open a new post once the old one reaches 300 or so comments, so if there are no new comments for a day or two it's probably because we've moved over to a new post (and/or there's a fic deadline and everyone's working on their fic instead, ha). (I tag these posts as 'frederick the great.')
Re: Hi, I'm new and I don't know how dreamwidth works?
Recruitment into the Fritzian fandom is more friendly and more consensual than recruitment into the Fritzian army, but it's not much less organized and high-octane!
how he was king In Prussia for a while, but anyway...
On which I turned out to have been possibly chronologically wrong! I still have a bookmark from a Potsdam or Berlin gift shop that says that he became King of Prussia only with the first Polish Partition, but then Selenak found evidence (I forget what evidence) that he started calling himself that already in the 1740s and eventually just wore everyone down, Fritz-style, so...
The Queen of Hungary: *clears throat*
The weird-ass musical
I attempted to translate Friedrich Mythos und Tragödie back in 2016 to show it to an American friend of mine (because I needed other people to suffer like I did). The subtitles were... alright enough, but I revised them last month, so now they're actually in the vague vicinity of good :'D The amount of serotonin I got when, after four years, I finally understood that FW says "You will serve in the Gens d'armes regiment" and not "asdsghjdsfjhkg SERVE!" - amazing.
I am not a professional translator and sometimes I am just plain lazy (I couldn't be arsed to spend too much brain power on retranslating the Katte/Wilhelmine duet...) soooo there are probably still mistakes. Anyway, here .
Geez, my love-hate relationship with this musical. I mean, some of the songs are great. Sometimes it is obvious that they did do their research (other times it is obvious that they did not give a shit about it...). I do think the cast had potential. Even though they picked the worst day to record for poor Tobias Bieri (Crown Prince Fritz), he sounds so much better in the bootlegs I've seen...
Re: The weird-ass musical
Re: The weird-ass musical
Interesting is the right word, it's... quite a wild ride. I am trying not to spoil anything because I feel like you need to experience the weirdness for yourself. Some plot points just kind of sneak up on you and punch you in the jaw.
Re: The weird-ass musical
Re: The weird-ass musical
The Braunschweig Perspective: Wedding Bells are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine
"The local rooms of the Crown Prince are with all eagerness being redecorated, and it's even said that the King had ordered all the wallpaper that used to be in these rooms, and all the books and papers which were still here, to be burned."
Same entry (August 25th 1731): the next unlucky guy to succeed Gundling and the rage-quitting Faßmann doesn't fare much better:
The successor of the late Councillor Gundeling and of Faßmann as court historian, v. Drost, has been offered by the King a salary of 1000 Reichstaler, but he keeps protesting and doesn't want to accept this office and the treats going with it; but he has still been ordered to Potsdam, and it's not doubted that given time, he'll accept everything since he's not capable of avoiding this.
Don't be so sure, Stratemann. Fritz gets three new beautiful riding horses sent to him to Küstrin; he's now reported as socializing with the Wreechs. Meanwhile, Wilhelmine has been allowed to drink coffee with Fritz of Bayreuth Otoh, Stratemann reports Fritz' secret library has been sold, though the buyer, a "French merchant", no name given, has announced he's holding it for Fritz as a future present.
It's the anniversary of the battle of Malplaquet (most devastating European battle pre 7 Years War; young FW, Seckendorff and Grumbkow were all youthful participants, and their relationship started there) which FW celebrates each year, this time by being so drunk he can't get up from the floor anymore without his servants' help.
September 22nd: hunting time, AW allowed to participate for the first time, Heinrich has fallen sick : The royal Prince August Wilhelm has been permitted to go hunting for the first time, with a gun, and he has sent the first shot partridge to the old governess of the royal children, Madame v. Roucoulles, as a present.
(Adult AW will not be a fan of hunting.)
Meanwhile, Drost, too, has gotten the hell out of Prussia rather than accept Gundling's job, "and nobody knows where. His colleague the advocate, however, has shown himself here again, and will probably be commissioned in his place. (...) The Medicus shall wear the same costume as the late Gundlng, and if he wants to, it will be permitted to him to let his wife come to Prussia, and it will be allowed to him to take his creditor, v. Lövenklau, as his Maitre d'Hotel.
So will this concessions make the guy accept the job? Stay tuned...
In October, FW proves he doesn't necessarily stiff actors: A strong man who has arrived from Italy this week has been at the King's and has displayed his strength and has presented comedies with his troupe which consists of about 20 people, whereupon both Majesties and the court were so pleased that ihe did not only receive gifts but has been permitted to show his arts in this country for money; which is why he has ordered a house made of wood to be built at Neumarkt here, and willl debut next week.
However, there's still an ongoing problem:
The King supposedly has a burning desire to debate again with a learned man like Gundling or Faßmann history as well als all matters in Europe, and wants to have such a man near his person again, which is why the vice director of Halberstadt, v. Dacheröden, who has proved during his last stay here that he is a capable man, has been suggested. So the King in order to close the arrangement quickly has given an order already.
Yeah, well...
It's getting near November, when Wilhelmine is supposed to marry. Her sister Friederike, who has married the Margrave of Ansbach even before Fritz' escape attempt, is coming to Berlin for the first time since that marriage for the occasion. FW decides to hire some musicians to celebrate her arrival.
Thus a few of the royal Polish musicians have come from Dresden. What's more, the so called Dönhoff-Horrible Band Of Musicians has arrived as a backup, which consists of lame clubfeets, one eyed and humpback bodies, so that everyone will be shattered by the ensuing noise.
I bet. Ugh at 18th century abelism.
November 20th 1731: Wilhelmine's wedding starts: The Crown Prince has not come from Küstrin, despite the Princess Bride kept begging with letter after letter for it, and no royal order has been edited to him, either.
As you noticed from Oster, SD is much displeased at the new comedians making sex jokes and wants to protet her daughters from same, so the three youngest princesses aren't allowed to attend the comedian appearances anymore. Stratemann gives a thorough description of the ceremonies and what everyone was wearing. Like I said, he's the old fashioned conservative gossip magazine of envoys. The bedding ceremony:
The King has helped the groom undress, the Queen has helped the bride, and then the later's eyes were bound while the bridal crown which was taken from her head has been given to another, who happened to be her youngest sister Princess Amalie, who took it. Then the noble couple had to go into bed in charming sleeping wear in front of all the illustrious guests, while the King held a little joking sermon and has sung a funny song, and then said: they should kiss each other now. Which they either out of awe or out of dumbness did not do, but probably wanted to postpone for another time. After everyone withdrew, the bridal couple was transported in chaises to the apartment destined for them, to which the King and the Queen followed them. They wished them a good night, and withdrew again; meanwhile, dancing kept up until late at night. (...)
Post Scriptum. De dato Berlin, 24. Nov. 1731. Last night around 7 pm and when the ball had already been started hours earlier, the Crown Prince, at first completely unknown and not with his cavaliers, has appeared at court. As soon as he was recognized by the princesses, his sisters (plural, yes), the joy has been indescribable, and many, many people both illustrious and not have shed tears of joy, including the Crown Prince himself. His Royal Highness looked somewhat serious while there was dancing, and hasn't danced with a lady other than his sisters and some princely people. He wore a grey suit, which had silver tressings at the edges, and which is referred in this country as a Secret Councillor Frock. So it is said that the King two days ago has sent an urgent message to Küstrin calling his royal highness here.
Stratemann will later say something more about Fritz at the wedding, which is typical for his style: first the white washed version, then somewhat later the admittance there were maybe some flies in the ointment after all.
There's a sketch of the wedding table and who sat where! So if anyone wants to write fanfic about Wilhelmine's wedding, this is really the book to consujlt. Even Polyanna Stratemann notes that SD retired early each evening of the wedding festivities after the first day.
FW is reported in a great mood throughout the week of Wilhelmine's wedding celebrations:
The King shows his tenderness towards the royal children in public, as they kissed the King's hands a dozen times, and have been allowed to kiss him on the mouth as well, which both the Margravine of Ansbach (Friederike) and her sister, the Princess Bride of Bevern (Charlotte) did at once, and then the former had to kiss her husband on the King's demand; morever, the Princess of Bayreuth and the little princesses received the grace to kiss their Papa and be kissed by him.
After Count Seckendorff declared supper to have ended, the King gave in front of all illustrious guests with unusual solemnity to the Crown Prince the sword of an officer, and the uniform to go with it, along with the regiment Golz which was transfered to him, which is why on the following days one saw the Prince at the parade wearing a blue coat to the greatest marvelling of the public, as his royal highness just a year ago when the Cavalry and the Colonel Lieutenant office of the King's Regiment had been taken from him had vowed never again to wear a blue coat.
On the dispatch dated December 11th 1731, Stratemann admits that maybe it wasn't all harmony at the wedding:
Secretly, one is assured: that the Crown Prince when he was present here has shown a disagreeable face to some people, and that this has been the cause of his sudden departure back to Küstrin, and that this is why it's now doubtful that the Prince will get the Golz regiment and other privileges after all.
Okay. According to Wilhelmine's memoirs, Fritz was cold-to-rude towards her new husband and distant to her, and Grumbkow (neglecting to mention that he'd advised Fritz to put up some boundaries) told her the King was displeased by this. I had written this off as double talk by Grumbkow, but I can't think of who else Fritz was noticed to have been rude to at the wedding, causing this rumor to reach Polyanna Stratemann's ears.
On December 29, 1731, we get a description of the Hohenzollern Clan celebrating the Christmas of 1731:
On Christmas Eve, the King has ordered small frogs to be exposed in the antechamber in order to amuse the little princes and princesses, and has given presents to all the family of royal blood, which were very precius and consisted of silver pieces and gallant trifles. The Prince of Bayreuth and his wife were given presents in the worth of 1000 Reichstaler. The Margrave of Ansbach and his wife got presents in the same worth, and many boxes were filled with them. What the two oldest princesses thus received were other than two precious boxes dozens of plates, knives, forks and spoons, big silver soup bowls, great candelabras, two big spoons for potatos, a barber bowl with a pot and a box to put the soap into. Princess Charlotte the Bevern Bride has received two silver brooms for the kitchen and other silver pieces. Princess Sophie got the least of all from the King, as she was only given two plates and some pretty trifles, but the Queen has more than made up for this since her Majesty gave her secretly a big cruxific full of diamonds. Princess Ulrike, who is the King's current favourite, has been given various gallant trifles in addition to three big plates and one candelabra. The little princes received an equal share of silver coins but also silver rods, with which the King hit the Prince Wilhelm's fingers with in jest, whereupon the Prince was shocked and by jumping back had a bad fall, which is why he's now confined to a sickbed.
No matter how pleasantly this evening passed, the next Christmas Day the King was suffering from a strong colic and threw up, so that her Majesty, too, has not left her room. In the evening, the joyful news was spread that the King through the main doctor Stahl's care and eagerness has been completely recovered.
No, I don't know where he got the frogs in December from. And the German word is "Fröschling", which I can't translate in another fashion but "little frog". Also, poor AW.
Stratemann hears rumors that give yet another reason why Fritz left Berin not overhwelmed with joy:
The local fish market wants to know about the Crown Prince's recent return to Küstrin: that a marriage has been offered to this dear lord which he hasn't been able to agree with joy on yet.
Given whom Fritz ends up marrying, this is rather coy from the Brunswick envoy.
January 12th 1732: At Christmas, the Crown Prince has been in Frankfurt, where the students have prepared a song and some music for him. But his marriage keeps nearly every journalist busy to get the scoop on, without knowing any certainties.
Since this Frankfurt (an der Oder) musical presentation is one of the two origin stories for Fritz/Fredersdorf we have, I note they spent the Christmas of 1731 together, at least.
Stratemann's tactful hint that Fritz is no yett keen on EC: There is much rumor about this prince's current establishment about which, due to worrisome causes, discreet silence must be kept; one has to wait for the certain success.
In early 1732, Franz Stephan's impending arrival causes quite a buzz. He shows up on February 15th, i.e. a good month before the official Fritz/EC engagment party (March 10th), and is a hit with most people, including Fritz.
The report about the engagement party is written on March 15th: The Crown Prince has started the ball with the Queen after supper on this most special engagement day, the King with the Duchess of Bevern, then with the Princess Bride and some of his princess daughters, and all the illustrious foreign visitors have shown themselves joyful and happy, and entertained themselves with both old and new dances. (..) The Duke of Lorraine finds much joy here, and his royal highness likes this residence in particular, due to the free conversation and not being bound to any ceremony, but also due to the daily interaction with the Royal family, and he has said: that he'd rather sit and eat with the young princes and princesses than at the Queen's table.
I bet, Franzl, I bet. I mean, if you had the choice to sit with glowering SD or with the kids from AW and Ulrike downwards, whom would you pick?
FW has a great idea for an extra (and cheap) engagement present for his new Braunschweig in-laws:
The smallest royal Prince, August Ferdinand, who is now nearly two years old and has been called August so far, now following the highest order should be adressed as Prince Ferdinand, which is the name he received from the Duke of Bevern, whereas the first one was in honor of the King of Poland.
(August the Strong, who is now dead.)
The rest of the dispatches has the news that Wilhelmine has written she's really happy with her new husband in Bayreuth, the Protestant religious refugees from Salzburg arrive, and then there's the sudden time jump of a year to 1733 when Fritz gets married. No more interesting stuff. But no matter; Stratemann certainly delivered before that.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Wedding Bells are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine
with which the King hit the Prince Wilhelm's fingers with in jest, whereupon the Prince was shocked and by jumping back had a bad fall, which is why he's now confined to a sickbed.
- AW forced to intervene on behalf of a long fellow under threat of being whipped by rod.
- FW jokingly threatens to cut off AW's fingers.
- AW finds out FW cuts off his officers' heads and doesn't want to be an officer any more.
- FW jokingly hits AW with a rod, resulting in a fall that lands him in a sickbed.
Even the favorite kid had it rough, man.
But no matter; Stratemann certainly delivered before that.
He did indeed! Both for information we didn't already have, and for what was going through the rumor mill at the time, which is always of interest to me: contemporaries didn't have the opportunities to do all the comparative review of sources with the benefit of hindsight that we have, so for fanfic purposes, it's often useful to have characters be *wrong*. (E.g. Fritz wearing Katte's coat, or when
For future reference, here's the seating chart.
I'm so glad the German reading group decided to cover Oster! Back when you read it, we had no way of knowing that envoy reports were such gold mines of scholarly interest and/or gossipy sensationalism.
Oh, did you ever give us the story of how Ferdinand's nurse was chosen? There's been a lot of material, and maybe I missed it, but I've been waiting. :)
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Wedding Bells are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine
Seating chart: footnote also for future reference: Princes Wilhelm and Heinrich aren’t AW and our Heinrich respectively, they are the Schwedt cousins. AW and our Heinrich are “2nd Royal Prince” and “3rd Royal Prince” respectively.
Ferdinand’s wetnurse: chosen about a month before SD gave birth via comitee consisting of favored court ladies, there were so many other passages I wanted to translate that I abandoned it. Still can do it, though, since I assume this is how it worked for the other royal children as well. (Except Amalie, if Wilhelmine didn’t make it up about SD not realising/being in denial about being pregnant again until shortly before the birth; I imagine that meant the wetnurse for Amalie had to be found really quickly.)
Even the favorite kid had it rough, man.
Quite. And at Christmas, too. Let’s hope he had at least fun with the firecrackers, if I’m right about this.
Contemporaries getting it wrong: My favourite example of a contemporary being utterly wrong remains Zimmermann’s theory about the escape attempt being that Fritz was on his way to Austria to marry MT, and that later FS showed up at his engagement party to gloat over his defeated rival.
Incidentally, I do find it interesting that Stratemann is so superdiscreet and cryptic about what concerns his boss most- Fritz being so super unkeen on EC. As a point of comparison, Seckendorff the Field Marshall in his letters to Prince Eugene and to the Emperor’s office of course reports what FW, SD and Fritz say at any given point about the Emperor (or other members of the imperial family). And Mitchell reports Fritz being uncomplimentary about Mr.Pitt as it happens. And Podewils of course gives Fritz any voiced MT opinion on himself. Maybe this reflects that Braunschweig, while one of the large, important duchies within the HRE, was still not in a league with Prussia, or maybe Stratemann didn’t want to test how much his Duke wanted that marriage to happen by reporting some of the things not just Fritz but SD and Charlotte said about poor EC at different times. It also goes against the way he consistently tries to put the best spin on the royal family and their behavior. There’s no way to spin “so I hear the Queen and our future Duchess in front of the servants talked about Princess EC has fistula in her anus”.
Re: The Braunschweig Perspective: Wedding Bells are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine
Yeah, poor AW!