cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 9

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frederick the great

Frederick the Great discussion post 9

...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!

I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)

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Replying to Mildred’s awesome “who’s topping” dissection of our antihero’s love and sex life here.

So: can’t find anything to disagree with re: your reading of the five people in question (and yes, definitely praise kink with Voltaire); the Algarotti/Orzelska parallel in what each experience made Fritz realise works for me, too.

A couple of addendums, though:

1. What, if anything, is going on with the batmen and pages? I know you’ve said in the past that it’s basically just Fritz liking to look and some flirting, and Voltaire certainly insinuates that for all the “harem” taunts there wasn’t much sexual action beyond maybe some petting. But then Voltaire is trash talking at that point and out to hurt. The thing is, though: never mind the power differential with everyone else, it’s really starkest here. And at least according to court gossip as rendered by Lehndorff, who is somewhat more reliable than Voltaire in repeating Fritz related gossip without putting a personal agenda slant on it, the court seems to be under the impression that Marwitz and Glasow were both people Fritz favoured with more than the occasional pinch in the cheek and a reasonable salary. Glasow was at least trusted enough to be made valet post Fredersdorf (though of course without all of Fredersdorf’s other responsibilities) and to come with Fritz on the Netherlands trip. Marwitz was part of a sibling power game with Heinrich, yes, but since he was yo-yoing in and out of favour for a while thereafter, there must have been a bit more attraction? And then of course there’s Trenck, the charismatic nutter. Who did get promoted rather quickly, and punished so much over the top-way that really the only reason why I don’t think Fritz did anything undeniable with him was that Trenck would have been constitionably unable to shut up about it later.

2. I therefore offer the possibility that low sex drive or not, he might have had some fantasies, not related to emotional intimacy - which I don’t think he sought with any of the above, though for as long as it lasted he had some trust in them - which involved having these good looking specimens at his disposal and under his control. Maybe he just orderd them to give him massages, but I do think there may have been something more than looking going on. (Though in deniable, not explicitly sexual ways, because otherwise, see above.)

3. Not completeley unrelated: Heinrich seems to have had a strong sex drive. And that must have felt like the road not taken, occasionally. Now considering FW’s opinion on royals who spend money on “whores” and Fritz’ lording it over Louis XV, I bet Heinrich’s tendency to pick the male equivalent of expensive mistresses, go through major relationship drama and in most cases end in new debts and minus a boyfriend made Fritz feel superior, and it wasn’t like he would have changed places, but... it’s also true that Heinrich‘s guys had a similar profile to those batmen mentioned above. (And of course in at least one case overlap.) (BTW, since we‘re exchanging headcanons: contemporaries were sure that Heinrich‘s boyfriends did the topping, though that might mostly be because he was small and they were tall. Not Potsdam Giant tall, but unsurprisingly all taller than tiny Heinrich. My own assumption is that most of them did top physically and he was into that, but also that he topped emotionally in the majority of cases, not least because while he put up with a great deal from his favourites, he was usually the one who did the dumping. Also because if you‘re involved in an ongoing push-pull emotional power struggle with your brother anyway, you‘re more likely to want to be emotionally in control in your love/sex life.) ETA: isn‘t that called a „pushy bottom“ inn fandom? Sounds like Heinrich to me.

Edited 2020-01-13 21:39 (UTC)

1. Voltaire certainly insinuates that for all the “harem” taunts there wasn’t much sexual action beyond maybe some petting. But then Voltaire is trash talking at that point and out to hurt.

Really, though? Because I thought he implied that Fritz was bottoming for his pages, that's what the "secondary role" was all about. At least other historians have taken it that way, have pointed out that he was trash-talking and out to hurt, and have pointed out the hemorrhoids. I mean, insinuating that the king is a bottom, and a bottom for his social inferiors, is WAY more slanderous than insinuating that he pets some pretty boys.

the court seems to be under the impression that Marwitz and Glasow were both people Fritz favoured with more than the occasional pinch in the cheek and a reasonable salary

Wow, a reasonable salary! :P His batman/page/I forget Claus gets included in the list too, especially based on some of the letters to Fredersdorf (if I'm recalling correctly).

I agree gossip had Fritz sexually active, but I think they were overestimating his sex drive. Not least because, as you point out, if Trenck didn't talk, nothing happened for him to talk about, and if it didn't happen with him, it probably didn't happen with the others either. But Fritz reacted similarly to the betrayals or alleged defections of both, and his fantasies may have played a role in the intensity of his reactions.

2. I agree 100% about the fantasies. I didn't mean to exclude that when I said "just likes to look," like the looking was aesthetic or something. I meant in terms of action, there's probably not much more than looking happening.

Inside Fritz's head? The thing about having a low sex drive is that it's not mutually exclusive with having an active sexual fantasy life. And power trips, especially when you have control issues but even when you don't, can feed heavily into sexual fantasies. I absolutely believe Fritz was getting off, figuratively and/or literally, on the idea of having charismatic pretty boys at his disposal.

3. contemporaries were sure that Heinrich‘s boyfriends did the topping

Wait, what? Which contemporaries? Lehndorff (or his sources)? Gossipy sensationalists demand quotes!

My own assumption is that most of them did top physically and he was into that, but also that he topped emotionally in the majority of cases

Makes perfect sense to me and fits pretty well with what I was imagining.

Edited 2020-01-13 23:21 (UTC)

I mean, insinuating that the king is a bottom, and a bottom for his social inferiors, is WAY more slanderous than insinuating that he pets some pretty boys.

True and true in the best classical tradition. I mean, if you wanted to slander a political opponent in Rome you didn‘t just insinuate he was getting it on with men, that wasn‘t negative per se, but that he was getting topped by social inferiors. (Or non-Romans.) (Or both and by women - hardcore mode of trash talk!)

(See also Cicero about Mark Antony. Now there‘s a Roman Fritz would not have cared to be compared to.)

I absolutely believe Fritz was getting off, figuratively and/or literally, on the idea of having charismatic pretty boys at his disposal

We have another concensus. :)

Which contemporaries? Lehndorff (or his sources)? Gossipy sensationalists demand quotes!

I was extrapolating from comments like that of the Marquis de Bombelles, who writes when Heinrich is visiting Paris for the first time: This Prince whom one had assumed to be just the willing toy of his favourites now appears in France as an imposing, brilliant personality. His repliques show his intelligence, dignity and common sense while he also asks witty and persistent questions.

„Willing toy“ doesn‘t have to be a sexual position assumption, of course, but it could be, given the climate of the day.

(BTW, another Frenchman, Count Ségur, on the same occasion - Heinrich‘s first visit to France - sums up what I meant in an earlier reply to Iberiandoctor about first impressions based on looks vs personality: His enchanting conversation and his amiable nature soon won him everyone‘s love. When one talked with him one soon forgot his unimpressive height, and the disagreeableness of his face which at first even looked repellent. His mind ennobled his body, and soon one only noticed the great man and the most charming of humans.)

As for Lehndorff, what do you take him for? He would never get into this much detail about the most adorable of princes. Seriously now, when he‘s angry or eye-rolling about Heinrich and boyfriend du jour, the most he says is that „X had a pretty face, so of course the prince fell for him“ or makes the terse comment that everyone had to hear what a genius, say, Mara was when Heinrich was aflame, but he doesn‘t make physical insinuations. Re: his own physical interactions with Heinrich,i.e. the benefits part of friends with benefits, it doesn‘t get more detailed than „embraced me tenderly“ or the „Polterabend/Stag Night“ entry about Heinrich coming home with him to his old flat where they celebrated stag night and then went on to his new flat, and since the two of the are the only ones doing the celebrating and we get in the same entry a sentence like „ My heart feels the whole height of this pleasure as I haven't been able to enjoy it for such a long time“, at a point where he’s seeing Heinrich practically daily in terms of social interactions, well, this reader assumes they did a bit more than tenderly embrace. Another occasion where I‘m pretty sure something happened is in the 7 years war when he hasn‘t seen Heinrich for two years due to the war and mentions not leaving him until he‘s fallen asleep. Maybe they did just talk each other‘s ears off, of course, but despite having his then boyfriend Kalkreuth as trusted lieutenant with him and Lehndorff being a married man by then, I suspect Lehndorff the civilian and reminder of a life beyond the battlefield, no to mention Lehndorff the fellow mourner for AW and provider of constant affection since about a decade would have been someone Heinrich reached out physically on that occasion. As for Lehndorff, it‘s Heinrich. And a Heinrich now endowed with a new heroic reputation, - Lehndorff at one point goes a bit hipster - I loved him already when the lot of you were gossipping about his various boyfriends - when the court starts to talk about Heinrich‘s battle heroics ca. 1757/1758. Sorry, Mrs. Lehndorff, but not only do I doubt he‘d have said no, but I also think he might have been eager to assert a claim there.

Mind you, as opposed to the rough trade boyfriends I don‘t think Heinrich usually went for penetrative sex with Lehndorff, and that that whatever sexual elements their relationship had were mostly kissing, blow jobs plus petting. But on those two specific occasions? Mutual topping, i.e. switching, is my head canon.

Edited 2020-01-14 02:44 (UTC)

I mean, if you wanted to slander a political opponent in Rome you didn‘t just insinuate he was getting it on with men, that wasn‘t negative per se, but that he was getting topped by social inferiors.

I just want to share this quote from Roman Homosexuality for

cahn: "Finally, the crucial importance of appearances illustrates the complexities of the relationship between representation and reality. If a certain man actually played the receptive role in the majority of his sexual encounters, yet managed to keep that fact a secret known only to himself and his partners and otherwise maintained the appearance of a fully masculine man, then he was a fully masculine man in the all-important arena of public discourse, despite the fact that he actually was breaking the rules behind closed doors. By contrast, if there were persistent rumors to the effect that a man liked to play the receptive role in intercourse, even if the man himself had never actually been penetrated, he was ipso facto a marked man, metaphorically 'fucked' even if not literally so."

„Willing toy“ doesn‘t have to be a sexual position assumption, of course, but it could be, given the climate of the day.

Yep, makes sense to me. The alternative would probably be "source of ready money."

As for Lehndorff, what do you take him for?

Well, not someone who would share this much detail! That's why I was so surprised. I'm glad it was a different source, it makes much more sense.

Also, thanks for spelling out the details of your evidence for the FWB relationship. Yay data. Yay gossipy sensationalism.

Yep, makes sense to me. The alternative would probably be "source of ready money."

Well, that, too. Btw, I find it pretty telling that while to this day you have indignant comment writers no-homo-ing Fritz and even about Heinrich going "there is no proof!", their contemporaries seem to have had zero doubts in that department.

But back to insinuations re: favourites - these do often come with assumptions of position.

I mean, take Louis XIV versus Louis XV. Le Roi Soleil had his share of mistresses, both short and long term, and made a great deal of enemies in his life, so there was no lack of caricature printed in, say, the Netherlands, which he was often at war with, or in some of the German states. But what's notably missing are caricatures that present him as being topped by his various ladies. The assumption being that however much influence the mistresses had, the sun king was the dominating manly man here, and thus of course on top. (His last maitresse en titre and morganatic wife Madame de Maintenon gets credited with emotionally topping him, but not in a way that lends itself to sexual assumptions, since the idea is that she, with the zeal of a convert - since she was a former Huguenot - is the one who makes Louis go ultra pious, ultra Catholic and drive out the Huguenots from France.)

Meanwhile, there is no lack of caricature of Louis XV being depicted as being physically topped by his mistresses as well as being led by his prick in general. Because unlike Grandpa, Louis XV isn't seen as manly and strong, he's seen as soft and easily swayed, which translates itself into being topped by women physically for the satirists.

Also, thanks for spelling out the details of your evidence for the FWB relationship. Yay data. Yay gossipy sensationalism.

Data is characterisation, as you've said. I also find it highly interesting that Lehndorff and Heinrich knew each other for years before Lehndorff falls in love. Until the winter of 1751, Heinrich is mentioned as part of the divine trio Lehndorff hangs out with, but not differently than Ferdinand, and the sole one of the three princes occasionally singled out for praise is AW. In fact, when lamenting AW in the summer of 1758 and looking back on his relationship with him, he notes that in 1750 Heinrich was in love with a guy named Wormser and had asked Lehndorff to let Wormser take his place in the carousel (= big Berlin carnival event), Lehndorff refused, Heinrich was irritated and somewhat cool towards Lehndorff for a while but AW backed Lehndorff up as being in the right not to surrender his place at the big social event of the season. This, like I said, jives with the early diary entries not singling out Heinrich among the brothers in any way until late 1751, when "Prince Heinrich" starts to get mentioned as "dear Prince Heinrich", Lehndorff starts to have dinners and meetings with him without one or both of the other two, and then in 1752 we start to get all those mad crush eloges ("what a man to be worshipped", "what little self possession I have leaves me when I am near him" etc.). So it's not a case of Lehndorff falling in love with a prince he doesn't yet know very well and is dazzled by, but Lehndorff falling in love with a prince he actually does know, has known and socialized with for years until something starts to change.

What major new thing is going on with Heinrich in the winter of 1751/ all through 1752? Fritz demands his submission in the form of marriage, that's what. Heinrich isn't actually boyfriend-less during that period, the boyfriend du jour back then is Reisewitz - who as Lehndorff notes is busy spending Heinrich's money supposed to go for the stables on himself - but for some reason, that's when he intensifies his relationship with Lehndorff from group friendship to intense personal relationship. (Which it will remain through the next decades.) And from Heinrich's pov, too, it's interesting he doesn't seek out someone new to compliment his already tumultous emotional life, he goes for someone he knows. (And knows to be a courtier, but not without a backbone instead of doing whatever a prince requests, as per the Wormer/carousel interlude.)

Ooh, thanks for the chronology of the evolution of the Heinrich/Lehndorff relationship, that's really interesting!

The iconography of the propaganda re the French kings was also interesting and informative.

This is such an educational fandom, I am in awe.

...I have not much to say about this but this is kind of amazing. <3

ETA: isn‘t that called a „pushy bottom“ inn fandom? Sounds like Heinrich to me.

That, or topping from the bottom. Agree that's Heinrich! There's also the bratty bottom, who sasses at you until you make him shut up, because he wants you to work for your dominance. Not sure that fits Heinrich as well (it's independent of emotional topping/bottoming, though--purely a sexual dynamic), but it's a possibility.

Could totally see Marwitz as a bratty bottom, though. Hmm, Heinrich might like that when he was topping. It might be very satisfying to have to work to dominate someone who was mouthing off, and then to succeed at it. Not to say he's working out any fraternal issues here... ;)

the five people in question

Six people! (Keith, Katte, Suhm, Fredersdorf, Algarotti, Voltaire.) I considered Suhm and Fredersdorf as complements, so there were only five sections.

Also, just to be perfectly clear: I agree with what you said in another post that Voltaire was het, and he and Fritz never irl made it to handjobs. But if they DID ever have sex, we agree it would be handjobs and petting and praise kink all the way. And some banter, of course, especially during the foreplay. I'm sure the banter gets them both turned on like whoa.

Could totally see Marwitz as a bratty bottom, though. Hmm, Heinrich might like that when he was topping. It might be very satisfying to have to work to dominate someone who was mouthing off, and then to succeed at it. Not to say he's working out any fraternal issues here... ;)

Oh, I'm pretty sure working out fraternal issues is what Fritz is doing post big clash 1746 after Marwitz gets fired/rehired as a guard, considering Lehndorff reports ten years later that in the intervening years, sometimes Fritz was favouring Marwitz and sometimes treating him like a criminal. Also my headcanon is that in 1756 when he resurfaces in Heinrich's social circle again - which Lehndorff reports as something new, and thankfully, data wise, adds he himself hasn't seen Marwitz since 1749 - Heinrich and Marwitz have sex one more time and also an honest wrap-up conversation about what the hell happened in 1746. (Pre war 1756 is a mild time for fraternal relations; Heinrich has arranged himself with his marriage, AW is alive and happy (and happily flirting with Mina), and Fritz doesn't demand any new submissions since he's busy concluding treaties with England and hasn't invaded Saxony yet.) Marwitz says something along the lines of "for what it's worth, I never did actually do it with your brother, he's not into that, it's all talk and intense stares with him while he makes you sweat in other ways". That sets Heinrich's mind at rest. It also kills any remaining sexual interest in Marwitz on his part, because Hohenzollerns are fucked up like that. (Also, of course, the outbreak of the war means everyone gets their priorities rearranged anyway. If "beautiful" Marwitz isn't identitical with Marwitz the dead Quartermaster from the Rheinsberg obelisk who died in 1759, that means he passes out of both brothers' lives for good then and maybe post war meets up with cousin female Marwitz the salon hostess and former lady-in-waiting to Wilhelmine in Vienna.

As to Heinrich working out fraternal issues with Marwitz as mouthy bottom pre and during big clash with Fritz of February and March 1746: am currently tempted to go with this scenario: 19 years old Heinrich, like Fritz, is freshly returned from the Second Silesian War and on a victory high. (Also on a survival high, I mean, he'd made it through his first few actual battles and done well, not yet on a general level, that's a decade in the future, but he's proved that he can't just personally survive but can be given some men and successfully lead them, too. Big Bro isn't the only one with military talent. Yay!) Up to this point, relations with Fritz aren't actually dysfunctional. I mean, Fritz has bossed him around re: not being a slacker and applying himself to reading, but that worked out, like young Fritz before him, Heinrich discovered he loves reading and doesn't mind hard work at all, he thrives on it. All the same, 19th years old Heinrich is in a heady mood, plus Fritz - who is busy firing off angry letters at Wihelmine and also had Trenck imprisoned for the first time - is probably in a bad mood and snappish. So when during one of those times he's in Potsdam with Fritz he spots Marwitz the hot page he falls for him, it's 80% young love/lust, but it' also 20 % because that's one page Big Bro shows an interest in and 19 years old Heinrich fresh from Silesia is in a "yes I can" mood. And wants to demonstrate that he may not be King, but he's got no problem pulling, even someone who's supposed to only care about the King's favour.

To make it crystal clear, I don't think he fell for Marwitz because of that, that he just went and looked for a page his brother was showing favour to, just that 19 years old Heinrich went "wow, that guy is hot! I'm in love!" and then "so what if Big Bro also fancies him? Look out, Fritz, I'm a grown up now! I'm feeling pretty invincible right now! En garde!"

We've been wondering whether Heinrich or Fritz showed interest in Marwitz first, but if my order of events is right, it would additionally account for Fritz going from being pretty well disposed towards younger brother in 1745 to extraordinarily bitchy in those letters in February/March 1746. And of course Heinrich's timing couldn't have been worse, since Fritz has just had the experience of favoured batman Trenck not just possibly spying for the Austrians but carrying on with sister Amalie behind Fritz' back. So events spiral out of control and Heinrich ends up with the first incident in the list of "how I hate you, let me count the ways" in his life.

I'm sure the banter gets them both turned on like whoa.

Definitely. Doesn't Voltaire even in the anti Fritz satiric pamphlet/memoirs state Fritz was witty? My current headcanon for Voltaire's feelings re: Fritz is that at first when Crown Prince Fritz writes, it's a mixture of calculation (this is a future King we're talking about, and a state pension is always really useful to have, especially if in your own country you could land in prison very easily), idealism (this is a future King we're talking about, and Voltaire now imagines he could change the world, or a part of it, for the better in ways other than through writings; cue him reading up Plato again), head turned by flattery (fan letters by now are nothing new, but coming from royalty they are) and some human interest (hang on, I've heard those stories about his ghastly father, I know all about ghastly fathers, and here's this young man writing in quite impressive French, having evidently succeeded in making something of himself despite the ogre on the throne - I see something of myself here!). The interest intensifies through the correspondance, but he's not actually in love in the Crown Prince years, flirtatious phrases like "I dream of my prince like I would of a mistress" when he hears FW is on his death bed not withstanding. No, he falls for King Fritz when he meets him, actually not so much because of the change in station but because King Fritz suddenly displays way more snark than Crown Prince Fritz did, turns out to be wily on a level Voltaire clearly hadn't anticipated and thus is a constant challenge of wits, and also, there's suddenly competition by none other than Émilie's recurring rebound Maupertuis. And that's when the French Homer truly falls in love.

Edited 2020-01-14 07:45 (UTC)

This all seems very plausible to me. Especially the part where meeting snarky, wily Fritz ratcheted up Voltaire's interest. For all that these two complain about each other's sharp edges, I really think if they hadn't been there, some of the appeal would have been gone.

It also kills any remaining sexual interest in Marwitz on his part, because Hohenzollerns are fucked up like that.

This made me laugh out loud.

For all that these two complain about each other's sharp edges, I really think if they hadn't been there, some of the appeal would have been gone.

Entirely agree, though I admit I let my own bias colour my perception, because I found the Fritz-Voltaire letters far more interesting to read once he's King, they've met a couple of times and all the mutual "you're the greatest" subsides - though doesn't disappear - and gets intermingled with some needling and snarking. Mutual gushing isn't what I want out of Fritz/Voltaire. That's what other ships are there for.:)

Incidentally, that's why I was rolling my eyes when Bodanis in his summary of Voltaire's early visits to Prussia goes "all that Frederick had shown to Voltaire about himself was a lie" and how crushed about that Voltaire must have been because, nope, not the impression I got from reading the Pleschinski-translated letters. I mean, naturally there was some disillusionment re: philosopher king with peaceful intentions at that point, but I definitely thought Voltaire's interest in Fritz the person as opposed to Fritz the potential life long financial security and tool to change one realm for the better doubled. And I don't think he'd have written that mid Silesian war love declaration about being unable to live with Fritz or without him and how he's in love with Fritz' mind which never ceases to infuriate him to nice Crown Prince Fritz of the fan letters.

That's half the reason I was rolling my eyes at Bodanis. The other half was "Do you even KNOW Fritz? You don't, you obviously don't, so please stop expressing opinions."

My ideal Fritz/Voltaire would be, oh, 10% mutual gushing, 20% meeting of the minds, 30% snark at other people and institutions, 20% snark/needling aimed at each other, 15% "OMGWTF even???" about each other, 5% wanting to strangle each other. With an intense romantic current running under 100% of it.

Bonus points if they can fit it all into one day.

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