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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 29
Stay tuned for RMSE!
From a trio of German Romantic writers - Achim von Arnim, his wife Bettina, who is also the sister of the third, Achim's bff Clemens Brentano. Of interest to us because Achim was the grandson of the former Mrs. Fredersdorf, grew up at Zernikow and provided a good quote for the current Zernikow website which as it turns out hails from this volume (though the website version lacks the virginity part). The editor points out that both the Brentano siblings and Achim von Arnim lost their mothers early and did not get along with their fathers, hence the intense relating to the grandparents, of whom all these anecdotes tell. Of interest to us is what Achim has to say about Grandma, her father, and also his Grandfather (her third husband). It's also worth reading the footnotes, which reveal that, drumroll, Caroline (i.e. Mrs. Fredersdorf) wrote a short "My life so far" memoir in 1777, of which a typoscript exists and is mentioned in the source footnote as follows: Typoskript einer Lebensbeschreibung vom 13. September 1777 im Brandesburgischen Landeshauptarchiv Potsdam, Rep. 37, Bärwalde-Wiepersdorf, Nr. 1832.) As the description of Fredersdorf the footnote quotes from it is even more glowing than the one Achim renembers her giving, this almost makes me cry that ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
felis doesn't live in Potsdam anymore. Anyway, something to look up in the future.
Caroline's father, Gottfried Adolf Daum (1679 - 1743) founded together with David Splitgerber the Berlin Bank and Trading House Splitgerber & Daum. They were just the kind of manufacturers FW wanted to encourage. Daum managed to impress him (not least by building houses in Berlin) and got permission to found and lead the Royal weapons and gun manufactory in Potsdam and Spandau 1722. (After Daum's death, his partner Splitgerber also founded the first Prussian sugar manufactury in 1746. You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.) Daum also managed to become a casual member of the Tobacco Parliament. So it won't surprise you if I tell you he was a strict Dad. Quoting Achim remembering what his grandmother said:
For all the wealth, strict austerity ruled the house, the children were cautioned to work hard, so only in the evening was time for leisure. And even those evening hours were used in summer to practice how to walk decent and ladylike under the eyes of governess and governor.
(Methinks we know where the "freedom" part in Caroline's characterisation of her first marriage comes from. The governor was for her brother. Who scandalized Dad and Mom by becoming a Catholic and moving to Italy later. Mom would have disinherited him if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.)
When autumn arrived, their hearts grew heavy when they saw fruits lying on the ground and weren't allowed to touch them. They then thought of some artifice, like saying: "a pretty colorful stone, perhaps father's cufflink!" and adroitly hid the fruit beneath their skirts in order to eat it in the restroom later in secret.
On to Daum and FW:
He had built a Dutch kitchen in his house in order to honor the King, that is a clean oven, the Kitchen red with white streaks of chalk in imitation of the usual burned stone, a large table and a closet full of Dutch pipes. The King often visited him with his generals and enjoyed his kind of pranks. Thus, he told him once: Listen, Daum, all women are whores! - No, your Majesty, Daum replied, my wife is not a whore. - Well, the King said, be he reassured, his wife and mine excepted, all women are whores. - The King rarely took back anything he said, and it showed how much credit Daum had with him that he did this time. For the King had the habit, on each Sunday to order the entire high society of Potsdam to drive past him three times and to call to each lady "Whore Whore!" - It's strange that my grandmother claimed that actually, there had been only one whore in Potsdam at that time, who'd been called Putzers Hanne, but maybe she didn't know the other ones.
Or maybe FW was an oafish ass, Achim. Though I'm impressed Caroline knew the name of an actual prostitute, which I wouldn't have thought a rich man'd daughter would.
On to Caroline.
My grandmother had even into her old age very vivid intense blue eyes, regular features, she was tall and had a good figure. Her coloring she'd lost due to an illness, without looking sickly or being an invalid, though. She was very vivacious, fulll of eagerness for the world's turnmoil, was used to devotion, discipline and austerity from her youth, was very noble in mind, and a witty companion to most. One should have believed these qualities would have assuredly let her into blissful domesticity with an ever growing circle of children. But strange fate! Her affection was won by a man who was already really ill and suffering from hemorhoids, though he was otherwise very handsome - the original word Achim uses is "schön", i.e. beautiful, but I know it's not used for men in English - , the Secret Chamberlain of the new King Friedrich II, his favourite ever since he as a soldier in the prison of Küstrin had lessened (Fritz') grief through his flute play. He seems to have been too well educated for a soldier; probably his tall figure caused his being drafted into service under the old King. My grandmother in her love believed him to be the most intelligent and wittiest man of the world. In her old age she read their exchanged love letters again, and be it that she had been aged too much, or that she did not want us to know and did not see the suitability of the jokes anymore, she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Friedrich didn't like the people around him to be married, he may have felt that they then didn't belong to him as completely anymore; he demanded utter devotion, but permitted them much confidentiality as a result. Moments in which to demand something of him had still be spotted and used quickly. The opportune moment to get the permission to marry from the King seemed to take years, the illness of the poor favourite grew, and he explained to the King that he could only hope to get better through this marriage and that he was dying of grief. That worked; the King agreed, and so that the King wouldn't change his mind again, the marriage was celebrated within twenty four hours after the hard won permission of the King had arrived. Thus the sickbed was the entrance to a marriage in which my grandmother lived as a virgin under a thousand worries but also with blissful freedom, mutual agreement and inner cheerfulness for three years after which he died after much sicknesss, so that after her own death she only wanted to rest at the side of this most beloved of her three husbands in her coffin.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled. He tried to find all kinds of diversions for her so that she wouldn't suffer from the sitting in a sick room, and made her go on long rides so she'd have distractions. As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles. I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
Comment: we already know the "got married within 24 hours" isn't true from Lehndorff's diary (and also by implication from the one Fritz letter where Fredersdorf's upcoming marriage is mentioned), but it's interesting the story had taken this shape decades later for Achim and his brother. The footnote to this passage by the editor contains an actual quote from Caroline's memoir preserved in typoscript, and it says:
His loss and his memory will always remain unforgettable to me, since our love was uncontestedly the purest and most loyal I was ever to find, which is why this worthy man has deserved that it should be known he was gifted besides the most beautiful pleasant looks with the most enlightened mind, abilities and quickness of spirit, which can hardly find their like anywhere.
From this praise by Caroline in 1777 you can deduce not just her very brief second marriage but the longer one to Achim's actual grandfather was less than stellar. Stay tuned as to why, but which I'll translate and transcribe later and separatedly.
felis doesn't live in Potsdam anymore. Anyway, something to look up in the future. Caroline's father, Gottfried Adolf Daum (1679 - 1743) founded together with David Splitgerber the Berlin Bank and Trading House Splitgerber & Daum. They were just the kind of manufacturers FW wanted to encourage. Daum managed to impress him (not least by building houses in Berlin) and got permission to found and lead the Royal weapons and gun manufactory in Potsdam and Spandau 1722. (After Daum's death, his partner Splitgerber also founded the first Prussian sugar manufactury in 1746. You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.) Daum also managed to become a casual member of the Tobacco Parliament. So it won't surprise you if I tell you he was a strict Dad. Quoting Achim remembering what his grandmother said:
For all the wealth, strict austerity ruled the house, the children were cautioned to work hard, so only in the evening was time for leisure. And even those evening hours were used in summer to practice how to walk decent and ladylike under the eyes of governess and governor.
(Methinks we know where the "freedom" part in Caroline's characterisation of her first marriage comes from. The governor was for her brother. Who scandalized Dad and Mom by becoming a Catholic and moving to Italy later. Mom would have disinherited him if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.)
When autumn arrived, their hearts grew heavy when they saw fruits lying on the ground and weren't allowed to touch them. They then thought of some artifice, like saying: "a pretty colorful stone, perhaps father's cufflink!" and adroitly hid the fruit beneath their skirts in order to eat it in the restroom later in secret.
On to Daum and FW:
He had built a Dutch kitchen in his house in order to honor the King, that is a clean oven, the Kitchen red with white streaks of chalk in imitation of the usual burned stone, a large table and a closet full of Dutch pipes. The King often visited him with his generals and enjoyed his kind of pranks. Thus, he told him once: Listen, Daum, all women are whores! - No, your Majesty, Daum replied, my wife is not a whore. - Well, the King said, be he reassured, his wife and mine excepted, all women are whores. - The King rarely took back anything he said, and it showed how much credit Daum had with him that he did this time. For the King had the habit, on each Sunday to order the entire high society of Potsdam to drive past him three times and to call to each lady "Whore Whore!" - It's strange that my grandmother claimed that actually, there had been only one whore in Potsdam at that time, who'd been called Putzers Hanne, but maybe she didn't know the other ones.
Or maybe FW was an oafish ass, Achim. Though I'm impressed Caroline knew the name of an actual prostitute, which I wouldn't have thought a rich man'd daughter would.
On to Caroline.
My grandmother had even into her old age very vivid intense blue eyes, regular features, she was tall and had a good figure. Her coloring she'd lost due to an illness, without looking sickly or being an invalid, though. She was very vivacious, fulll of eagerness for the world's turnmoil, was used to devotion, discipline and austerity from her youth, was very noble in mind, and a witty companion to most. One should have believed these qualities would have assuredly let her into blissful domesticity with an ever growing circle of children. But strange fate! Her affection was won by a man who was already really ill and suffering from hemorhoids, though he was otherwise very handsome - the original word Achim uses is "schön", i.e. beautiful, but I know it's not used for men in English - , the Secret Chamberlain of the new King Friedrich II, his favourite ever since he as a soldier in the prison of Küstrin had lessened (Fritz') grief through his flute play. He seems to have been too well educated for a soldier; probably his tall figure caused his being drafted into service under the old King. My grandmother in her love believed him to be the most intelligent and wittiest man of the world. In her old age she read their exchanged love letters again, and be it that she had been aged too much, or that she did not want us to know and did not see the suitability of the jokes anymore, she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Friedrich didn't like the people around him to be married, he may have felt that they then didn't belong to him as completely anymore; he demanded utter devotion, but permitted them much confidentiality as a result. Moments in which to demand something of him had still be spotted and used quickly. The opportune moment to get the permission to marry from the King seemed to take years, the illness of the poor favourite grew, and he explained to the King that he could only hope to get better through this marriage and that he was dying of grief. That worked; the King agreed, and so that the King wouldn't change his mind again, the marriage was celebrated within twenty four hours after the hard won permission of the King had arrived. Thus the sickbed was the entrance to a marriage in which my grandmother lived as a virgin under a thousand worries but also with blissful freedom, mutual agreement and inner cheerfulness for three years after which he died after much sicknesss, so that after her own death she only wanted to rest at the side of this most beloved of her three husbands in her coffin.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled. He tried to find all kinds of diversions for her so that she wouldn't suffer from the sitting in a sick room, and made her go on long rides so she'd have distractions. As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles. I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
Comment: we already know the "got married within 24 hours" isn't true from Lehndorff's diary (and also by implication from the one Fritz letter where Fredersdorf's upcoming marriage is mentioned), but it's interesting the story had taken this shape decades later for Achim and his brother. The footnote to this passage by the editor contains an actual quote from Caroline's memoir preserved in typoscript, and it says:
His loss and his memory will always remain unforgettable to me, since our love was uncontestedly the purest and most loyal I was ever to find, which is why this worthy man has deserved that it should be known he was gifted besides the most beautiful pleasant looks with the most enlightened mind, abilities and quickness of spirit, which can hardly find their like anywhere.
From this praise by Caroline in 1777 you can deduce not just her very brief second marriage but the longer one to Achim's actual grandfather was less than stellar. Stay tuned as to why, but which I'll translate and transcribe later and separatedly.
Edited 2021-07-24 06:54 (UTC)
As the description of Fredersdorf the footnote quotes from it is even more glowing than the one Achim renembers her giving, this almost makes me cry that felis doesn't live in Potsdam anymore. Anyway, something to look up in the future.
Don't cry, it was the first hit on Google! It took me 30 seconds to find. The whole life is only 4 pages long. It's in the library now, starting on page 63.
I can see where the 24 hour story arose, even though that's not what she says! The way I read it: they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!) Shortly thereafter, Fredersdorf fell sick. Because he was a great favorite of Fritz, Fritz didn't want him to get married until he was recovered, because Fritz was worried that married life would be detrimental to Fredersdorf's health. [I suspect the sex part?] But the doctors gave Fredersdorf no chance of recovery [this is the part I'm a little unsure I'm reading right], so Fritz gave his royal permission, and Caroline and Fredersdorf were married December 20, 1753, with Fredersdorf on his sickbed.
Tell me if I got that right:
Im Jahre 1752, den 29. Oktober ward ich zum ersten Male verlobt mit dem damaligen königlichen geheimen Kämmerer Michael Gabriel Fredersdorff, welcher kurz nach der Verlobung in kränkliche Umstände verfiel, sodaß der König, da er sein grosser Favorit war, die Vollziehung der Heirat aus grosser Besorgung für sein Leben, nicht vor seiner völligen Genesung zulassen wollte, da die Krankheit aber anhaltend blieb, ward ich mit allerhöchstem Konsens diesem Fredersdorf auf sein innigstes Verlangen 1753, den 20. Dezember auf dem Krankenbette, da die Medici ihm das Leben völlig absprachen, angetraut.
And then she remained a virgin, which...I'm now imagining Fritz and Fredersdorf having the conversation of, "Well, I'm not going to sleep with her as long as I'm this sick, so don't worry about it, just let me get married!" :P
Also! We now know that he died about 10 in the morning on January 12. We knew the date but not the time.
da er zu meinem allergrössten Schmerz den 12. Januar des morgens um 10 Uhr im 48. Jahre seines Alters zu Potsdam in der Gnade seines grossen Königs dies zeitliche segnete.
Also, help me out with that sentence: I can't tell if she's saying Fredersdorf was in Fritz's favor when he died??? or if "in der Gnade seines grossen Königs" has to do with God. (God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
AAHHH, I will try to say more later, but I'm having *so much* trouble finding time for salon :((( (upcoming post on why--I might be moving), but even before I turned up Caroline's life, I was DELIGHTED by your write-up, and my reaction was, "I KNEW we wanted this volume!" :DDDD
Don't cry, it was the first hit on Google! It took me 30 seconds to find. The whole life is only 4 pages long. It's in the library now, starting on page 63.
I can see where the 24 hour story arose, even though that's not what she says! The way I read it: they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!) Shortly thereafter, Fredersdorf fell sick. Because he was a great favorite of Fritz, Fritz didn't want him to get married until he was recovered, because Fritz was worried that married life would be detrimental to Fredersdorf's health. [I suspect the sex part?] But the doctors gave Fredersdorf no chance of recovery [this is the part I'm a little unsure I'm reading right], so Fritz gave his royal permission, and Caroline and Fredersdorf were married December 20, 1753, with Fredersdorf on his sickbed.
Tell me if I got that right:
Im Jahre 1752, den 29. Oktober ward ich zum ersten Male verlobt mit dem damaligen königlichen geheimen Kämmerer Michael Gabriel Fredersdorff, welcher kurz nach der Verlobung in kränkliche Umstände verfiel, sodaß der König, da er sein grosser Favorit war, die Vollziehung der Heirat aus grosser Besorgung für sein Leben, nicht vor seiner völligen Genesung zulassen wollte, da die Krankheit aber anhaltend blieb, ward ich mit allerhöchstem Konsens diesem Fredersdorf auf sein innigstes Verlangen 1753, den 20. Dezember auf dem Krankenbette, da die Medici ihm das Leben völlig absprachen, angetraut.
And then she remained a virgin, which...I'm now imagining Fritz and Fredersdorf having the conversation of, "Well, I'm not going to sleep with her as long as I'm this sick, so don't worry about it, just let me get married!" :P
Also! We now know that he died about 10 in the morning on January 12. We knew the date but not the time.
da er zu meinem allergrössten Schmerz den 12. Januar des morgens um 10 Uhr im 48. Jahre seines Alters zu Potsdam in der Gnade seines grossen Königs dies zeitliche segnete.
Also, help me out with that sentence: I can't tell if she's saying Fredersdorf was in Fritz's favor when he died??? or if "in der Gnade seines grossen Königs" has to do with God. (God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
AAHHH, I will try to say more later, but I'm having *so much* trouble finding time for salon :((( (upcoming post on why--I might be moving), but even before I turned up Caroline's life, I was DELIGHTED by your write-up, and my reaction was, "I KNEW we wanted this volume!" :DDDD
The Royal Detective strikes again! That was neat.
I can see where the 24 hour story arose, even though that's not what she says!
Not at all, and in fact, her dates fit with what we know from Lehndorff's diary, but yes, it's comprehensible that her grandson decades later, being a poet and writer of fiction, altered the story the way he did.
they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!)
We did not, but like I said, it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752 at the same dinner where he meets the Abbé de Prades for the first time noticing "Fredersdorf's fiancee" and hearing Fritz will give her a wedding present of 5000 Taler. (It was this entry that kept us from accepting the 24 hours story more than anything else, since it's set a year before the actual wedding.)
because Fritz was worried that married life would be detrimental to Fredersdorf's health. [I suspect the sex part?]
Definitely the sex part. "Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage". Incidentally, I'm a bit sceptical about the medical part of these supposed Fritzian concerns, given that in the one and only letter to Fredersdorf where he mentions the upcoming marriage, he also makes that "take a hot hunter or page with you" joke. Otoh, maybe he thought sex with a woman would be more stressful. (And also proof Fredersdorf hadn't just married a nurse.) Not to mention that it could be an argument Fredersdorf himself used to Caroline for why he didn't have sex with her that would not feel like a rejection of herself. (A la Mina and Heinrich.) Mind you, given he'd die three years later and really did have terrible hemorrhoid problems already in the winter of 1753, he probably wasn't longing for sex with either man or woman in any event.
But the doctors gave Fredersdorf no chance of recovery [this is the part I'm a little unsure I'm reading right]
No, you're reading it right - "the doctors denied there was any chance that he would live" (in the long term). Just to set the record straight, we should list the differences here to the Achim derived story from various other biographies and websites:
Caroline: we got engaged, but because he was in such a bad state, the King was worried and said we were not to marry until he recovered.
Achim and successors: Because the King didn't like his bffs to marry, you had to be careful to ask for permission and use a good moment, so they kept their intention a secret until then.
Caroline: The doctors said he wouldn't recover in the long term anyway and he really wanted to marry me, so the King gave permission and we were married a bit more than a year after getting engaged with him being in the sickbed, he was that ill.
Achim and successors: Fredersdorf got sick, pretended to be dying if he didn't marry Caroline, got permission from Fritz and immediately married her within 24 hours of getting the permission, upon which he recovered.
This has become quite a different story!
Also, help me out with that sentence: I can't tell if she's saying Fredersdorf was in Fritz's favor when he died??? or if "in der Gnade seines grossen Königs" has to do with God. (God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
Truth, hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :) But she definitely means Fritz. (So there, Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp!) "Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
I can see where the 24 hour story arose, even though that's not what she says!
Not at all, and in fact, her dates fit with what we know from Lehndorff's diary, but yes, it's comprehensible that her grandson decades later, being a poet and writer of fiction, altered the story the way he did.
they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!)
We did not, but like I said, it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752 at the same dinner where he meets the Abbé de Prades for the first time noticing "Fredersdorf's fiancee" and hearing Fritz will give her a wedding present of 5000 Taler. (It was this entry that kept us from accepting the 24 hours story more than anything else, since it's set a year before the actual wedding.)
because Fritz was worried that married life would be detrimental to Fredersdorf's health. [I suspect the sex part?]
Definitely the sex part. "Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage". Incidentally, I'm a bit sceptical about the medical part of these supposed Fritzian concerns, given that in the one and only letter to Fredersdorf where he mentions the upcoming marriage, he also makes that "take a hot hunter or page with you" joke. Otoh, maybe he thought sex with a woman would be more stressful. (And also proof Fredersdorf hadn't just married a nurse.) Not to mention that it could be an argument Fredersdorf himself used to Caroline for why he didn't have sex with her that would not feel like a rejection of herself. (A la Mina and Heinrich.) Mind you, given he'd die three years later and really did have terrible hemorrhoid problems already in the winter of 1753, he probably wasn't longing for sex with either man or woman in any event.
But the doctors gave Fredersdorf no chance of recovery [this is the part I'm a little unsure I'm reading right]
No, you're reading it right - "the doctors denied there was any chance that he would live" (in the long term). Just to set the record straight, we should list the differences here to the Achim derived story from various other biographies and websites:
Caroline: we got engaged, but because he was in such a bad state, the King was worried and said we were not to marry until he recovered.
Achim and successors: Because the King didn't like his bffs to marry, you had to be careful to ask for permission and use a good moment, so they kept their intention a secret until then.
Caroline: The doctors said he wouldn't recover in the long term anyway and he really wanted to marry me, so the King gave permission and we were married a bit more than a year after getting engaged with him being in the sickbed, he was that ill.
Achim and successors: Fredersdorf got sick, pretended to be dying if he didn't marry Caroline, got permission from Fritz and immediately married her within 24 hours of getting the permission, upon which he recovered.
This has become quite a different story!
Also, help me out with that sentence: I can't tell if she's saying Fredersdorf was in Fritz's favor when he died??? or if "in der Gnade seines grossen Königs" has to do with God. (God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
Truth, hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :) But she definitely means Fritz. (So there, Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp!) "Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752
Not that I doubted it, but I still love it when the dates line up this way. And I continue to be glad that Lehndorff gives us so much background and additional info and everyone and everything (except Katte :P), allowing for a much denser tapestry of events.
"Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage"
You know, I certainly know that turn of phrase, but still didn't immediately make the connection. Still, fascinating that this was a topic and the reason Fritz gave.
As I said above, I love that we have a first-hand account from Caroline's perspective here, and yeah, I agree with you guys that one can easily see how and why the dramatized story developed, but damn, that's quite a difference and I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
Not that I doubted it, but I still love it when the dates line up this way. And I continue to be glad that Lehndorff gives us so much background and additional info and everyone and everything (except Katte :P), allowing for a much denser tapestry of events.
"Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage"
You know, I certainly know that turn of phrase, but still didn't immediately make the connection. Still, fascinating that this was a topic and the reason Fritz gave.
As I said above, I love that we have a first-hand account from Caroline's perspective here, and yeah, I agree with you guys that one can easily see how and why the dramatized story developed, but damn, that's quite a difference and I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
And I continue to be glad that Lehndorff gives us so much background and additional info and everyone and everything (except Katte :P),
Lehndorff: He's from the Family Of Evil Bridestealers, and also: *waves TEAM KEITH banner*
Still, fascinating that this was a topic and the reason Fritz gave.
I was wondering how Achim knew his grandmother remained a virgin during her Frederdorf marriage before reading her own quote on it. And doesn't it say a lot about the difference between the 18th and the 19th century, both that it was discussed before hand and that she later felt free to talk about it? 19th century historians and bowlderizers would have had the vapeurs.
I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
Absolutely. Everyone comes out of it way better in this version from our Fritz/Fredersdorf shipping pov!
Lehndorff: He's from the Family Of Evil Bridestealers, and also: *waves TEAM KEITH banner*
Still, fascinating that this was a topic and the reason Fritz gave.
I was wondering how Achim knew his grandmother remained a virgin during her Frederdorf marriage before reading her own quote on it. And doesn't it say a lot about the difference between the 18th and the 19th century, both that it was discussed before hand and that she later felt free to talk about it? 19th century historians and bowlderizers would have had the vapeurs.
I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
Absolutely. Everyone comes out of it way better in this version from our Fritz/Fredersdorf shipping pov!
Lehndorff gives us so much background and additional info and everyone and everything (except Katte :P),
Lehndorff: He's from the Family Of Evil Bridestealers, and also: *waves TEAM KEITH banner*
Actually laughed out loud. :D
I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
Absolutely. Everyone comes out of it way better in this version from our Fritz/Fredersdorf shipping pov!
Exactly! I like this version.
Lehndorff: He's from the Family Of Evil Bridestealers, and also: *waves TEAM KEITH banner*
Actually laughed out loud. :D
I have to say, for our purposes, the truth is much more fun IMO.
Absolutely. Everyone comes out of it way better in this version from our Fritz/Fredersdorf shipping pov!
Exactly! I like this version.
That was neat.
It was neat! I continue to be delighted at what a great team we make, in which I turn up the anecdotes volume and tell you about it, and you read it and tell us all the neat anecdotes in it and tell us that there's a life by Caroline Daum, and then I find it and you help me read it! :D
We did not, but like I said, it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752
Exactly, I had double-checked it when doing this write-up yesterday.
Definitely the sex part. "Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage".
Aahhh, yes, of course, I should have thought of that. (Oh, wait, I was super distracted and rushed because of reasons.) I just figured it was sex because that was a common thing to worry about.
I'm a bit sceptical about the medical part of these supposed Fritzian concerns, given that in the one and only letter to Fredersdorf where he mentions the upcoming marriage, he also makes that "take a hot hunter or page with you" joke.
I had the same reaction! (There were many things I wanted to say yesterday and did not.) I suspect Fritz is actually medically concerned, but then using the medical part to justify his main concern, which is, "I'm still your top priority, right? Right???"
No, you're reading it right - "the doctors denied there was any chance that he would live" (in the long term).
Awesome, thanks.
This has become quite a different story!
Indeed! But the interesting part is that the individual elements are all there, even if the way they're put together completely contradicts the later version of the story. I did wonder briefly if maybe Fritz gave his permission (the second time) on December 19, 1753, but no, his "take a hot hunter or page with you" letter is from "around the beginning of November 1753." Incidentally, Richter gives the marriage date as December 30, not December 20, citing the church book in the Potsdam Garrison Church, and Fahlenkamp agrees. Our chronology says December 23!! Which is from Wikipedia, no citation. (This is what I mean by constantly hitting different dates for the same event.) (Fontane of course gives 1750, but we know that's way off.)
The 20th could be a typo, or the 30th could be a typo/misreading that Fahlenkamp copied from Richter.
(God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
Truth, hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :)
Heee, that was hilarious. :D
But she definitely means Fritz. (So there, Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp!)
Aha! That was my first reading (and "so there!" my first reaction), but then I started second-guessing and thinking maybe I just have Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp on the brain because I've been doing some serious research on that subject in the last month.
So...is she being defensive because when she was writing, there were already claims about him not having been in favor? Because that seems like an interesting thing to interject into his death description. "Fredersdorf was Fritz's favorite, so Fritz was worried about his health and didn't want to let us get married" is an important part of the plot; "Fredersdorf was in favor when he died!" is...lacking context unless there are already rumors going around.
(Deschamps accuses Fredersdorf of embezzlement, but never actually says he was out of favor, as far as I can tell, and indeed implies quite the opposite (based on my memory of Selena's summary of the editor's summary of a text none of us have read)).
Btw, if it were only Caroline, I'd have to point out her possible bias, but we have so much other evidence that while this isn't the strongest piece, it's definitely good to add to the picture.
"Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
Interesting, didn't know that! Thanks.
It was neat! I continue to be delighted at what a great team we make, in which I turn up the anecdotes volume and tell you about it, and you read it and tell us all the neat anecdotes in it and tell us that there's a life by Caroline Daum, and then I find it and you help me read it! :D
We did not, but like I said, it fits with Lehndorff on December 15th 1752
Exactly, I had double-checked it when doing this write-up yesterday.
Definitely the sex part. "Vollziehung der Ehe" is "consumation of marriage".
Aahhh, yes, of course, I should have thought of that. (Oh, wait, I was super distracted and rushed because of reasons.) I just figured it was sex because that was a common thing to worry about.
I'm a bit sceptical about the medical part of these supposed Fritzian concerns, given that in the one and only letter to Fredersdorf where he mentions the upcoming marriage, he also makes that "take a hot hunter or page with you" joke.
I had the same reaction! (There were many things I wanted to say yesterday and did not.) I suspect Fritz is actually medically concerned, but then using the medical part to justify his main concern, which is, "I'm still your top priority, right? Right???"
No, you're reading it right - "the doctors denied there was any chance that he would live" (in the long term).
Awesome, thanks.
This has become quite a different story!
Indeed! But the interesting part is that the individual elements are all there, even if the way they're put together completely contradicts the later version of the story. I did wonder briefly if maybe Fritz gave his permission (the second time) on December 19, 1753, but no, his "take a hot hunter or page with you" letter is from "around the beginning of November 1753." Incidentally, Richter gives the marriage date as December 30, not December 20, citing the church book in the Potsdam Garrison Church, and Fahlenkamp agrees. Our chronology says December 23!! Which is from Wikipedia, no citation. (This is what I mean by constantly hitting different dates for the same event.) (Fontane of course gives 1750, but we know that's way off.)
The 20th could be a typo, or the 30th could be a typo/misreading that Fahlenkamp copied from Richter.
(God or Fritz, easy to confuse. :P)
Truth, hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :)
Heee, that was hilarious. :D
But she definitely means Fritz. (So there, Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp!)
Aha! That was my first reading (and "so there!" my first reaction), but then I started second-guessing and thinking maybe I just have Wikipedia and Fahlenkamp on the brain because I've been doing some serious research on that subject in the last month.
So...is she being defensive because when she was writing, there were already claims about him not having been in favor? Because that seems like an interesting thing to interject into his death description. "Fredersdorf was Fritz's favorite, so Fritz was worried about his health and didn't want to let us get married" is an important part of the plot; "Fredersdorf was in favor when he died!" is...lacking context unless there are already rumors going around.
(Deschamps accuses Fredersdorf of embezzlement, but never actually says he was out of favor, as far as I can tell, and indeed implies quite the opposite (based on my memory of Selena's summary of the editor's summary of a text none of us have read)).
Btw, if it were only Caroline, I'd have to point out her possible bias, but we have so much other evidence that while this isn't the strongest piece, it's definitely good to add to the picture.
"Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
Interesting, didn't know that! Thanks.
I suspect Fritz is actually medically concerned, but then using the medical part to justify his main concern, which is, "I'm still your top priority, right? Right???"
LOL, yes, that's what I figured, too.
The 20th could be a typo, or the 30th could be a typo/misreading that Fahlenkamp copied from Richter.
Either is possible, argh. At least it can't be another case of Gregorian vs Julian calendar, since Protestant Brandenburg had adopted the Gregorian Calendar by then, too.
So...is she being defensive because when she was writing, there were already claims about him not having been in favor? Because that seems like an interesting thing to interject into his death description. "Fredersdorf was Fritz's favorite, so Fritz was worried about his health and didn't want to let us get married" is an important part of the plot; "Fredersdorf was in favor when he died!" is...lacking context unless there are already rumors going around.
There were. You're forgetting Glasow! Lehndorff definitely is under the impression Glasow was one of the reaosns why Fredersdorf quit his job and thinks Fritz traded one for the other in his journals. Henckel von Donnersmarck also thinks Glasow "got rid of Fredersdorf" on his rise to power. Both are contemporay writers writing independently from each other in their journals. Which means there must have been a rumor that Fredersdorf either quit because of Glasow or got traded in or both, and I suspect that's what Caroline is argueing against implicitly, saying, no, he died very much in favor.
LOL, yes, that's what I figured, too.
The 20th could be a typo, or the 30th could be a typo/misreading that Fahlenkamp copied from Richter.
Either is possible, argh. At least it can't be another case of Gregorian vs Julian calendar, since Protestant Brandenburg had adopted the Gregorian Calendar by then, too.
So...is she being defensive because when she was writing, there were already claims about him not having been in favor? Because that seems like an interesting thing to interject into his death description. "Fredersdorf was Fritz's favorite, so Fritz was worried about his health and didn't want to let us get married" is an important part of the plot; "Fredersdorf was in favor when he died!" is...lacking context unless there are already rumors going around.
There were. You're forgetting Glasow! Lehndorff definitely is under the impression Glasow was one of the reaosns why Fredersdorf quit his job and thinks Fritz traded one for the other in his journals. Henckel von Donnersmarck also thinks Glasow "got rid of Fredersdorf" on his rise to power. Both are contemporay writers writing independently from each other in their journals. Which means there must have been a rumor that Fredersdorf either quit because of Glasow or got traded in or both, and I suspect that's what Caroline is argueing against implicitly, saying, no, he died very much in favor.
You're forgetting Glasow! Lehndorff definitely is under the impression Glasow was one of the reaosns why Fredersdorf quit his job and thinks Fritz traded one for the other in his journals.
Huh, I had never interpreted the Lehndorff passage to mean Fredersdorf was out of favor, just that Fredersdorf stepped down voluntarily because he didn't like how much favor Glasow was getting. But Donnersmarck saying Glasow did get rid of Fredersdorf I had forgotten.
got rid of the treasurer Fredesdorf who thus was dismissed shortly before his death
Yeah, okay, so that rumor was definitely going around, and is independent of whether Fredersdorf had been accused of embezzlement and dismissed for that reason.
Excellent, thank you for reminding me!
Huh, I had never interpreted the Lehndorff passage to mean Fredersdorf was out of favor, just that Fredersdorf stepped down voluntarily because he didn't like how much favor Glasow was getting. But Donnersmarck saying Glasow did get rid of Fredersdorf I had forgotten.
got rid of the treasurer Fredesdorf who thus was dismissed shortly before his death
Yeah, okay, so that rumor was definitely going around, and is independent of whether Fredersdorf had been accused of embezzlement and dismissed for that reason.
Excellent, thank you for reminding me!
hence my letting Heinrich use the "Allmighty" designation. :)
:D That was awesome!
"Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
Ha, good to know! I was wondering about that too, once mildred brought it up :)
:D That was awesome!
"Der große König" was NOT how Rococo people talked about God.
Ha, good to know! I was wondering about that too, once mildred brought it up :)
they got engaged October 29, 1752. (I don't think we had that date!)
Oh, Selena, since you're always interested in Fredersdorf's marriage and the Voltaire explosion, I was updating our chronology just now, and I give you this juxtaposition:
1752, October 15: Fritz publishes Lettre d‘un académicien de Berlin à un académicien de Paris, defending Maupertuis and trashing Voltaire.
1752, October 29: Fredersdorf and Caroline von Daum get engaged.
Oh, Selena, since you're always interested in Fredersdorf's marriage and the Voltaire explosion, I was updating our chronology just now, and I give you this juxtaposition:
1752, October 15: Fritz publishes Lettre d‘un académicien de Berlin à un académicien de Paris, defending Maupertuis and trashing Voltaire.
1752, October 29: Fredersdorf and Caroline von Daum get engaged.
This is so completely charming! <3
if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.
Go Caroline! (Also totally fits the pic I have of her from what you've told us,selenak.)
When autumn arrived, their hearts grew heavy when they saw fruits lying on the ground and weren't allowed to touch them. They then thought of some artifice, like saying: "a pretty colorful stone, perhaps father's cufflink!" and adroitly hid the fruit beneath their skirts in order to eat it in the restroom later in secret.
Aw MAN. This is both a charming and a heartbreaking story.
It's strange that my grandmother claimed that actually, there had been only one whore in Potsdam at that time, who'd been called Putzers Hanne, but maybe she didn't know the other ones.
Heh. Is it possible Achim is being sarcastic here? It just seems a little... disingenuous to me :)
But strange fate! Her affection was won by a man who was already really ill and suffering from hemorhoids, though he was otherwise very handsome
<3
probably his tall figure caused his being drafted into service under the old King.
LOL Achim's headcanon is my headcanonthat is to say, FW totally hit on Fredersdorf
she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
a marriage in which my grandmother lived as a virgin under a thousand worries but also with blissful freedom, mutual agreement and inner cheerfulness for three years after which he died after much sicknesss, so that after her own death she only wanted to rest at the side of this most beloved of her three husbands in her coffin.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled. He tried to find all kinds of diversions for her so that she wouldn't suffer from the sitting in a sick room, and made her go on long rides so she'd have distractions.
This is all so fascinating and so sweet and Fredersdorf was clearly THE BEST <3
if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.
Go Caroline! (Also totally fits the pic I have of her from what you've told us,
selenak.)When autumn arrived, their hearts grew heavy when they saw fruits lying on the ground and weren't allowed to touch them. They then thought of some artifice, like saying: "a pretty colorful stone, perhaps father's cufflink!" and adroitly hid the fruit beneath their skirts in order to eat it in the restroom later in secret.
Aw MAN. This is both a charming and a heartbreaking story.
It's strange that my grandmother claimed that actually, there had been only one whore in Potsdam at that time, who'd been called Putzers Hanne, but maybe she didn't know the other ones.
Heh. Is it possible Achim is being sarcastic here? It just seems a little... disingenuous to me :)
But strange fate! Her affection was won by a man who was already really ill and suffering from hemorhoids, though he was otherwise very handsome
<3
probably his tall figure caused his being drafted into service under the old King.
LOL Achim's headcanon is my headcanon
she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
a marriage in which my grandmother lived as a virgin under a thousand worries but also with blissful freedom, mutual agreement and inner cheerfulness for three years after which he died after much sicknesss, so that after her own death she only wanted to rest at the side of this most beloved of her three husbands in her coffin.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled. He tried to find all kinds of diversions for her so that she wouldn't suffer from the sitting in a sick room, and made her go on long rides so she'd have distractions.
This is all so fascinating and so sweet and Fredersdorf was clearly THE BEST <3
This is both a charming and a heartbreaking story.
What I thought. Sheesh, Daum, FW ISN'T whom you should have taken as a role model when educating your children.
Heh. Is it possible Achim is being sarcastic here? It just seems a little... disingenuous to me :)
He might well have been. He was certainly capable of it; his and Clemens Brentano's correspondence is full of sarcasm. And let's not forget, he's writing in early 19th century Prussia, where you do not critique any of the Hohenzollern.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
Yes to both. It's noteworthy that she didn't burn the Fritz letters, mind. Perhaps because she thought the later were of historical value since they were by Fritz (and showed how much her favourite husband had meant to him), while her own love letters were to her something strictly personal and no one else's business.
What I thought. Sheesh, Daum, FW ISN'T whom you should have taken as a role model when educating your children.
Heh. Is it possible Achim is being sarcastic here? It just seems a little... disingenuous to me :)
He might well have been. He was certainly capable of it; his and Clemens Brentano's correspondence is full of sarcasm. And let's not forget, he's writing in early 19th century Prussia, where you do not critique any of the Hohenzollern.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
Yes to both. It's noteworthy that she didn't burn the Fritz letters, mind. Perhaps because she thought the later were of historical value since they were by Fritz (and showed how much her favourite husband had meant to him), while her own love letters were to her something strictly personal and no one else's business.
Aw Caroline! I do understand why people burn their letters on a personal level (I don't think I'd want anyone to find the letters I wrote when I was a silly teenager) but of course it's sad from a historical standpoint :P
Same! I want all my private letters, fic drafts, browser history, etc. deleted, but I extremely want those of historical figures and authors to survive!
LOL Achim's headcanon is my headcanon that is to say, FW totally hit on Fredersdorf
LOL! Remember, I still want that Christmas 1732 outtake where FW paints him! Would that we had known when you were writing that fic!
FW aside, I thought we had determined that Fredersdorf *was*dubconned drafted because of his height? Even below the Potsdam Giants cutoff, regimental commanders had their quotas to meet, and there were height requirements (hence the Fritz/Heinrich conflict later on).
This is all so fascinating and so sweet and Fredersdorf was clearly THE BEST <3
YES YES YES
Same! I want all my private letters, fic drafts, browser history, etc. deleted, but I extremely want those of historical figures and authors to survive!
LOL Achim's headcanon is my headcanon that is to say, FW totally hit on Fredersdorf
LOL! Remember, I still want that Christmas 1732 outtake where FW paints him! Would that we had known when you were writing that fic!
FW aside, I thought we had determined that Fredersdorf *was*
This is all so fascinating and so sweet and Fredersdorf was clearly THE BEST <3
YES YES YES
It's lovely to learn more about Caroline - and to get a first-hand account from her no less!
You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.
I already meant to comment on this last post, but while I knew about the money, I was surprised to learn that her father was such a big deal and occasionally attended the tobacco parliament. Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
That said, the way Achim reports the anecdotes from his grandma's childhood is very lively, but also reminds me of the way my grandmothers used to tell stories from theirs - not in content, but in style (including the prostitute bit, funny enough, down to the way of mentioning names).
she did not want to share them and burned them
Nooooo. I mean, I get it, but still!
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
with the most enlightened mind
Which I suspect in large part means his opinion on women and their role, given everything we've now learned about Caroline and their relationship. But I also like it as part of the bigger picture, being close to someone like Fritz and even a member of the freemasons.
You can see why Caroline was loaded as an heiress.
I already meant to comment on this last post, but while I knew about the money, I was surprised to learn that her father was such a big deal and occasionally attended the tobacco parliament. Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
That said, the way Achim reports the anecdotes from his grandma's childhood is very lively, but also reminds me of the way my grandmothers used to tell stories from theirs - not in content, but in style (including the prostitute bit, funny enough, down to the way of mentioning names).
she did not want to share them and burned them
Nooooo. I mean, I get it, but still!
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
with the most enlightened mind
Which I suspect in large part means his opinion on women and their role, given everything we've now learned about Caroline and their relationship. But I also like it as part of the bigger picture, being close to someone like Fritz and even a member of the freemasons.
It's lovely to learn more about Caroline - and to get a first-hand account from her no less!
Indeed! I so glad it survives, and I guess I now have to look up Clara von Armin's memoirs as well, since the magazine Mildred linked says she decribes how the family unearthed Caroline's account in the 1920s.
Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
Oh absolutely. Just because it's ic doesn't mean it has to be literally true, plus Achim is bound to have read some anecdote collections and memoirs featuring FW being, welll, FW, which could have become jumbled in his mind with his grandmother's tale. This said, there's a footnote from the editor to the "whore, whore!" story saying: "Compare the contemporary anecdote of the encounter between the King and a "well dressed woman" in the park of Charlottenburg: "She attracted his attention, and he pushed his horse thusly in her direction that she was bound to come across his path. The monarch in general did not have a good opinion of any women of this kind, especially if they were dressed up more than usual. When he came closer, he noticed, as he would later admit himself, that she was of more than common beauty, but this even contributed to his being strengthened in his bias against all women. After he had asked her regarding her name and station, which was one of middle class burgherdom, his generally adopted principles caused the statement against her that she surely had to be a whore." (Karakterzüge aus dem Leben König Friedrich Wilhelm I. nebst verschiedenen Anekdoten. Erste Sammlung, Berlin 1787, S. 129 - 131.)
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
I'm afraid it's lost, otherwise they surely would have had it at Zernikow. The only portrait of Caroline I've ever seen there or anywhere else is the one showing her as an old woman. Which I suspect is the result of the complete decline and lack of attention to Zernikow from the mid 19th century onwards, alas.
Fredersdorf's enlightened mind: "mit dem aufgeklärtesten Verstande, Fähigkeiten und Munterkeit des Geistes begabet" is the original phrase, and I like it for the same reasons you do, plus remember Richter (and some others) snobbishly declaring that Fredersdorf couldn't have possibly been of any interest as a person since he was just a dumb servant (thus is only interest lies in the emotion he evoked in Fritz)? Even if you ascribe rosy glasses to Caroline, who is speaking restrospectively about a man who has been dead for decades and symbolizes to her the happiest years of her life as a wife: she is writing this at a time of her life when she's known plenty of other people to compare Fredersdorf with. She's not writing as the young woman newly in love, but as an old one who has lived in Berlin when a great many of the clever spirits of the age did, she has a basis of comparison. Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Indeed! I so glad it survives, and I guess I now have to look up Clara von Armin's memoirs as well, since the magazine Mildred linked says she decribes how the family unearthed Caroline's account in the 1920s.
Given how much writer Achim dramatized the marriage story, though, I feel like we should take the FW story with a grain of salt as well? Not that I can't see him saying/doing all that, it certainly fits his personality and his paranoia re: women, but still.
Oh absolutely. Just because it's ic doesn't mean it has to be literally true, plus Achim is bound to have read some anecdote collections and memoirs featuring FW being, welll, FW, which could have become jumbled in his mind with his grandmother's tale. This said, there's a footnote from the editor to the "whore, whore!" story saying: "Compare the contemporary anecdote of the encounter between the King and a "well dressed woman" in the park of Charlottenburg: "She attracted his attention, and he pushed his horse thusly in her direction that she was bound to come across his path. The monarch in general did not have a good opinion of any women of this kind, especially if they were dressed up more than usual. When he came closer, he noticed, as he would later admit himself, that she was of more than common beauty, but this even contributed to his being strengthened in his bias against all women. After he had asked her regarding her name and station, which was one of middle class burgherdom, his generally adopted principles caused the statement against her that she surely had to be a whore." (Karakterzüge aus dem Leben König Friedrich Wilhelm I. nebst verschiedenen Anekdoten. Erste Sammlung, Berlin 1787, S. 129 - 131.)
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
I'd love to see this painting, sounds pretty badass...
I'm afraid it's lost, otherwise they surely would have had it at Zernikow. The only portrait of Caroline I've ever seen there or anywhere else is the one showing her as an old woman. Which I suspect is the result of the complete decline and lack of attention to Zernikow from the mid 19th century onwards, alas.
Fredersdorf's enlightened mind: "mit dem aufgeklärtesten Verstande, Fähigkeiten und Munterkeit des Geistes begabet" is the original phrase, and I like it for the same reasons you do, plus remember Richter (and some others) snobbishly declaring that Fredersdorf couldn't have possibly been of any interest as a person since he was just a dumb servant (thus is only interest lies in the emotion he evoked in Fritz)? Even if you ascribe rosy glasses to Caroline, who is speaking restrospectively about a man who has been dead for decades and symbolizes to her the happiest years of her life as a wife: she is writing this at a time of her life when she's known plenty of other people to compare Fredersdorf with. She's not writing as the young woman newly in love, but as an old one who has lived in Berlin when a great many of the clever spirits of the age did, she has a basis of comparison. Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Conclusion: Maybe Achim did his exaggerating thing again, and the story his grandmother told also only referenced one "whore!" occasion, not FW doing this every Sunday, but I can well believe it happened.
*nod* Yes, that makes perfect sense. Note also this passage from Voltaire's memoirs:
After Frederic-William had reviewed his giants, he used to walk through the town, and every body fled before- him full speed. If he happened to meet a woman, he would demand why she staid idling her time in the streets, and exclaim, ('Go--get home with you, you lazy hussy; an honest woman has no business over the threshold of her own door;' which
remonstrance he would accompany with a hearty box on the ear, a kick in the groin (!), or a few well applied strokes on the shoulders with his cane.
Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Indeed! <3 Fredersdorf
Also, from your first post:
very vivid intense blue eyes
Fredersdorf has a type? ;)
*nod* Yes, that makes perfect sense. Note also this passage from Voltaire's memoirs:
After Frederic-William had reviewed his giants, he used to walk through the town, and every body fled before- him full speed. If he happened to meet a woman, he would demand why she staid idling her time in the streets, and exclaim, ('Go--get home with you, you lazy hussy; an honest woman has no business over the threshold of her own door;' which
remonstrance he would accompany with a hearty box on the ear, a kick in the groin (!), or a few well applied strokes on the shoulders with his cane.
Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him. Which puts him a head of a great many husbands of the age!
Indeed! <3 Fredersdorf
Also, from your first post:
very vivid intense blue eyes
Fredersdorf has a type? ;)
Hee. They're both strong-willed, too! (Which suggests that Fredersdorf had some serious people skills.)
Also, what does come across is that he wanted her to be happy in this marriage, not just play nurse to him and deliver her fortune to him.
Yes exactly! <33 Heck, that puts him above some husbands in this age, for that matter :P
Yes exactly! <33 Heck, that puts him above some husbands in this age, for that matter :P
For all the wealth, strict austerity ruled the house, the children were cautioned to work hard, so only in the evening was time for leisure. And even those evening hours were used in summer to practice how to walk decent and ladylike under the eyes of governess and governor.
(Methinks we know where the "freedom" part in Caroline's characterisation of her first marriage comes from.
Indeed. I totally see Fredersdorf telling her her take rides and get away from the sickbed being the favorite husband. <3
her brother. Who scandalized Dad and Mom by becoming a Catholic and moving to Italy later. Mom would have disinherited him if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.
What a great story! And definitely a strong-willed woman.
My grandmother in her love believed him to be the most intelligent and wittiest man of the world.
Aww, I kind of ship these two. (Thanks to you, Selena.)
In her old age she read their exchanged love letters again, and be it that she had been aged too much, or that she did not want us to know and did not see the suitability of the jokes anymore, she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Gah! Like everyone else, I understand, but what a loss.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled.
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles.
Reminder forcahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles, so for "eight miles" read "forty miles." I just checked Google maps and it's about 20 miles along modern roads, but I can't tell whether he's saying 40 miles round-trip (which it doesn't seem it could have been less than that when Achim is writing), or 40 miles each way (which is double the modern distance).
I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
Go her! And go Fredersdorf letting her ride and ride astride. As we've discussed, women riding in Germany was not really a thing, which is why young Anhalt Sophie was so impressed when she saw Countess Bentinck doing it, and why Wilhelmine had the whole Scooby Doo episode, and why MT had to learn for her coronation.
Blessed freedom indeed!
(Methinks we know where the "freedom" part in Caroline's characterisation of her first marriage comes from.
Indeed. I totally see Fredersdorf telling her her take rides and get away from the sickbed being the favorite husband. <3
her brother. Who scandalized Dad and Mom by becoming a Catholic and moving to Italy later. Mom would have disinherited him if Caroline, who loved her brother, hadn't insisted that she then wouldn't accept her inheritance, either, and reconciled him with Mom.
What a great story! And definitely a strong-willed woman.
My grandmother in her love believed him to be the most intelligent and wittiest man of the world.
Aww, I kind of ship these two. (Thanks to you, Selena.)
In her old age she read their exchanged love letters again, and be it that she had been aged too much, or that she did not want us to know and did not see the suitability of the jokes anymore, she did not want to share them and burned them with the same amazement that she'd been delighted by them in her youth.
Gah! Like everyone else, I understand, but what a loss.
Illness made the poor man often irritable, but she swore that his general kindness and repentance over each outburst had her always reconciled.
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles.
Reminder for
cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles, so for "eight miles" read "forty miles." I just checked Google maps and it's about 20 miles along modern roads, but I can't tell whether he's saying 40 miles round-trip (which it doesn't seem it could have been less than that when Achim is writing), or 40 miles each way (which is double the modern distance).I have seen a painting of her in her riding dress, it was a half male outfit in green, wiht a female skirt and a three point hat. She also rode like a man.
Go her! And go Fredersdorf letting her ride and ride astride. As we've discussed, women riding in Germany was not really a thing, which is why young Anhalt Sophie was so impressed when she saw Countess Bentinck doing it, and why Wilhelmine had the whole Scooby Doo episode, and why MT had to learn for her coronation.
Blessed freedom indeed!
Edited 2021-07-25 13:26 (UTC)
Aww, I kind of ship these two. (Thanks to you, Selena.)
Spreading the joy of multishipping is my mission in this fandom, along with spreading the interest in the ladies connected to the guys and in sibling interaction of all kind. :)
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
*nods* Absolutely. He wasn't perfect, and I think anyone who has been sick, and also who has been close to a sick person, can relate. That this is included in Achim's recollections of his Grandmother's stories along with the praise also gives me confidence that by and large, he's telling the truth as he knows it (dramatizations not withstanding).
Potsdam-Berlin distance: giving the rapid growth of Berlin through the 19th and then the 20th century, I bet it was the larger distance back then?
Spreading the joy of multishipping is my mission in this fandom, along with spreading the interest in the ladies connected to the guys and in sibling interaction of all kind. :)
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
*nods* Absolutely. He wasn't perfect, and I think anyone who has been sick, and also who has been close to a sick person, can relate. That this is included in Achim's recollections of his Grandmother's stories along with the praise also gives me confidence that by and large, he's telling the truth as he knows it (dramatizations not withstanding).
Potsdam-Berlin distance: giving the rapid growth of Berlin through the 19th and then the 20th century, I bet it was the larger distance back then?
Potsdam-Berlin distance: giving the rapid growth of Berlin through the 19th and then the 20th century, I bet it was the larger distance back then?
I took the growth into account and used landmarks that we know existed then: Sanssouci and the Berliner Dom. That said, I don't know what her exact start and end points were, so it could be the outskirts.
(I mean, this map is from twenty years later, but I can't imagine that the roads changed all that much in between.)
It sounds like he's saying the roads *did* change. One thing that occurs to me: given the amount of water in the area, could there have been a body of water or marshy ground that you had to go around in the 1750s and could go straight over by road in the 1770s?
I took the growth into account and used landmarks that we know existed then: Sanssouci and the Berliner Dom. That said, I don't know what her exact start and end points were, so it could be the outskirts.
(I mean, this map is from twenty years later, but I can't imagine that the roads changed all that much in between.)
It sounds like he's saying the roads *did* change. One thing that occurs to me: given the amount of water in the area, could there have been a body of water or marshy ground that you had to go around in the 1750s and could go straight over by road in the 1770s?
No, I don't think so - I wouldn't know where, there was a war in between, and Fritz didn't invest much in roads anyway, focused more on waterways. FW had the main southern route ("Königsweg") built in 1730 and there weren't many changes after that, until FWII invested in the "Berlin-Potsdamer-Chaussee", which was built between 1788 and 1795. Since Arnim wrote the anecdotes in 1814, I believe that's probably the main change he's referring to as a comparison - the middle part was the same as before, just way better, but I guess it shortened the leg between Potsdam and Zehlendorf, so you probably end up with closer to three miles one-way, where it was closer to four miles before.
As a proof of her fitness may serve the fact she often rode to Berlin and back from Potsdam in one day, at a time when this way was much longer and very uneven, so really lasted eight miles.
Reminder for cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles
For illustration see this map from 1775, which shows the roads between Potsdam and Berlin at the time and includes a handy mile indicator. It's indeed roughly four miles one-way, so I'm not quite sure what he's saying either, as the round-trip was eight miles. (I mean, this map is from twenty years later, but I can't imagine that the roads changed all that much in between.)
ETA: Possibly like Selena said - expansion of both towns led to shrinking distance between the outskirts and that's why he's clarifying the distance. But he definitely means round-trip then.
Reminder for cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles
For illustration see this map from 1775, which shows the roads between Potsdam and Berlin at the time and includes a handy mile indicator. It's indeed roughly four miles one-way, so I'm not quite sure what he's saying either, as the round-trip was eight miles. (I mean, this map is from twenty years later, but I can't imagine that the roads changed all that much in between.)
ETA: Possibly like Selena said - expansion of both towns led to shrinking distance between the outskirts and that's why he's clarifying the distance. But he definitely means round-trip then.
Edited 2021-07-25 15:18 (UTC)
Aww, I kind of ship these two. (Thanks to you, Selena.)
Seconded!
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
Yesssss this!
Reminder for [personal profile] cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles, so for "eight miles" read "forty miles."
Oh, whoa, thanks! Yeah, that is definitely a rather bigger deal.
Seconded!
Aww, it's nice to see a three-dimensional picture of Fredersdorf. I can tell you that I'm not at my best when I'm sick, and I definitely remember telling the nurse after my major surgery that if I was cranky with her, it wasn't because she wasn't doing a great job.
Yesssss this!
Reminder for [personal profile] cahn that the German mile of the 18th century was approximately 5 of our miles, so for "eight miles" read "forty miles."
Oh, whoa, thanks! Yeah, that is definitely a rather bigger deal.
Though I'm impressed Caroline knew the name of an actual prostitute, which I wouldn't have thought a rich man'd daughter would.
I see that Putzers Hanne was the Belle Watling of Potsdam! :P
I see that Putzers Hanne was the Belle Watling of Potsdam! :P
Hans von Labes. You can see both why Caroline at first fell for him and why it later went downhill, and Fredersdorf remained unseated as her favourite husband.
My mother's father had a thoroughly unique mental life, a strange mixture of free, great experience and close minded tastes bound to his era, much character, a lot of quircks, which in the lonely years near the end of his life verged on impossibilities. He was a self made man, and never forgot it, and thus the rest of the world often seemed to him just an attachment to his movement. As a boy, he'd run away to Hannover and was able to distinguish himself there so much that he found support at the universities. Afterwards, he distinguished himself in the eyes of Friedrich II. through voluntary important services in foreign departments. As resident in some South German courts through personal influence with one princess, he knew how to uncover her preparations for the 7 Years War.
Translation: Granda Labes was a spy! The footnote says the princess in question was either the Duchess of Bavaria or Wilhelmine's daughter the Duchess of Württemberg, Friederike Sophie. However, since Friederike at this point was already back home with her parents in Bayreuth, having left her husband for good, I'm not sure how that should have worked, so Mrs. Wittelsbach it has to be.
After the outbreak of said war he was limited to working in a department. Through a strange inflexibility and a lot of impudence he eventually drew the hatred of the King on himself, left town and spent his last year at Zernikow, his wife's estate. This as an overview of his life, some details which I have chosen of a great number.
Achim next goes into said details. Seems Grandpa Labes once the war was over turned into a wine, women and song guy. He was celebrated for his spectacular wine cellar and for his banquets. Each banquet guest had to gift him one book for his library, and said library was really large by the end, thus, says Achim, you can see Grandpa was popular as long as he was throwing said banquets.
His most favourite friend seems to have been Count Gotter whom Friedrich himself also wrote poetry about as an expert, and of whom there are three different portraits in his heritage. Of his female friends, of whom he had many as a chevalier d'amour, I only name the later famous Karschin, of whom there are many tender poems adressed to him in his papers.
(Anna Karsch, the "Karschin", was one of the few famous 18th century female poets.)
He supported her in her rise to fame, often let her improvise at his banquets, and thus it happened that since she was fond of wine herself that she once in the middle of enthusiastic poetry reciting fell under the table crowned with laurels but completely drunk and passed out. He had put coffins in the next room for all drunks as if for dead people. She, too, was put in one of them with her laurels, and forgotten there, so that in the next morning people first thought a thief had broken into the house when she awoke and completed her triumph with a cat's howling over her headache.
In general, he didn't much esteem German poetry, though, Horace was for him the ultimate in wit and wisdom, and even dying he recommended Latin to his son, or rather to his son's mother so that his son should learn it.
Achim says when Grandduke Paul returned with Heinrich after Heinrich's second trip to Russia in order to get married again, Grandpa Labes sent food and drink over to the Grandduke from Zernikow, but was already on his deathbed and hence unable to attend to the Grandduke even if he'd been permitted.
His tauntings of the law of the country sometimes got him arrested. He was tireless in tormenting the royal civil servants. So he had once an argument over hunting. In order to annoy the hunters, he invited them into his banqueting room, where there were a lot of mice and rats, and between them shot with his gun after the little vermin. (...) He had some favourites among the farmers, whom he often made drunk in many ways in order to have sex with their wives undisturbed. He gave then poetical names to the children like Galathée whereas the farmer named her Theke.
And this, mes amies, is why Caroline during these last years of her husband's life didn't live in Zernikow with her husband, much as she loved the estate otherwise, but in Berlin with her daughter and only returned to Zernikow after he had died. :(
My mother's father had a thoroughly unique mental life, a strange mixture of free, great experience and close minded tastes bound to his era, much character, a lot of quircks, which in the lonely years near the end of his life verged on impossibilities. He was a self made man, and never forgot it, and thus the rest of the world often seemed to him just an attachment to his movement. As a boy, he'd run away to Hannover and was able to distinguish himself there so much that he found support at the universities. Afterwards, he distinguished himself in the eyes of Friedrich II. through voluntary important services in foreign departments. As resident in some South German courts through personal influence with one princess, he knew how to uncover her preparations for the 7 Years War.
Translation: Granda Labes was a spy! The footnote says the princess in question was either the Duchess of Bavaria or Wilhelmine's daughter the Duchess of Württemberg, Friederike Sophie. However, since Friederike at this point was already back home with her parents in Bayreuth, having left her husband for good, I'm not sure how that should have worked, so Mrs. Wittelsbach it has to be.
After the outbreak of said war he was limited to working in a department. Through a strange inflexibility and a lot of impudence he eventually drew the hatred of the King on himself, left town and spent his last year at Zernikow, his wife's estate. This as an overview of his life, some details which I have chosen of a great number.
Achim next goes into said details. Seems Grandpa Labes once the war was over turned into a wine, women and song guy. He was celebrated for his spectacular wine cellar and for his banquets. Each banquet guest had to gift him one book for his library, and said library was really large by the end, thus, says Achim, you can see Grandpa was popular as long as he was throwing said banquets.
His most favourite friend seems to have been Count Gotter whom Friedrich himself also wrote poetry about as an expert, and of whom there are three different portraits in his heritage. Of his female friends, of whom he had many as a chevalier d'amour, I only name the later famous Karschin, of whom there are many tender poems adressed to him in his papers.
(Anna Karsch, the "Karschin", was one of the few famous 18th century female poets.)
He supported her in her rise to fame, often let her improvise at his banquets, and thus it happened that since she was fond of wine herself that she once in the middle of enthusiastic poetry reciting fell under the table crowned with laurels but completely drunk and passed out. He had put coffins in the next room for all drunks as if for dead people. She, too, was put in one of them with her laurels, and forgotten there, so that in the next morning people first thought a thief had broken into the house when she awoke and completed her triumph with a cat's howling over her headache.
In general, he didn't much esteem German poetry, though, Horace was for him the ultimate in wit and wisdom, and even dying he recommended Latin to his son, or rather to his son's mother so that his son should learn it.
Achim says when Grandduke Paul returned with Heinrich after Heinrich's second trip to Russia in order to get married again, Grandpa Labes sent food and drink over to the Grandduke from Zernikow, but was already on his deathbed and hence unable to attend to the Grandduke even if he'd been permitted.
His tauntings of the law of the country sometimes got him arrested. He was tireless in tormenting the royal civil servants. So he had once an argument over hunting. In order to annoy the hunters, he invited them into his banqueting room, where there were a lot of mice and rats, and between them shot with his gun after the little vermin. (...) He had some favourites among the farmers, whom he often made drunk in many ways in order to have sex with their wives undisturbed. He gave then poetical names to the children like Galathée whereas the farmer named her Theke.
And this, mes amies, is why Caroline during these last years of her husband's life didn't live in Zernikow with her husband, much as she loved the estate otherwise, but in Berlin with her daughter and only returned to Zernikow after he had died. :(
Each banquet guest had to gift him one book for his library, and said library was really large by the end
Heh, I like this idea (well, if I had a lot more room for bookshelves than I actually do)
and thus it happened that since she was fond of wine herself that she once in the middle of enthusiastic poetry reciting fell under the table crowned with laurels but completely drunk and passed out. He had put coffins in the next room for all drunks as if for dead people. She, too, was put in one of them with her laurels, and forgotten there, so that in the next morning people first thought a thief had broken into the house when she awoke and completed her triumph with a cat's howling over her headache.
Ha, okay, that's a funny story.
His tauntings of the law of the country sometimes got him arrested. He was tireless in tormenting the royal civil servants. So he had once an argument over hunting. In order to annoy the hunters, he invited them into his banqueting room, where there were a lot of mice and rats, and between them shot with his gun after the little vermin. (...) He had some favourites among the farmers, whom he often made drunk in many ways in order to have sex with their wives undisturbed. He gave then poetical names to the children like Galathée whereas the farmer named her Theke.
And this, mes amies, is why Caroline during these last years of her husband's life didn't live in Zernikow with her husband, much as she loved the estate otherwise, but in Berlin with her daughter and only returned to Zernikow after he had died. :(
Oh noooo :( Yeah, this guy sounds like maybe he could be a lot of fun in the short term but seriously bad news in the long term.
Heh, I like this idea (well, if I had a lot more room for bookshelves than I actually do)
and thus it happened that since she was fond of wine herself that she once in the middle of enthusiastic poetry reciting fell under the table crowned with laurels but completely drunk and passed out. He had put coffins in the next room for all drunks as if for dead people. She, too, was put in one of them with her laurels, and forgotten there, so that in the next morning people first thought a thief had broken into the house when she awoke and completed her triumph with a cat's howling over her headache.
Ha, okay, that's a funny story.
His tauntings of the law of the country sometimes got him arrested. He was tireless in tormenting the royal civil servants. So he had once an argument over hunting. In order to annoy the hunters, he invited them into his banqueting room, where there were a lot of mice and rats, and between them shot with his gun after the little vermin. (...) He had some favourites among the farmers, whom he often made drunk in many ways in order to have sex with their wives undisturbed. He gave then poetical names to the children like Galathée whereas the farmer named her Theke.
And this, mes amies, is why Caroline during these last years of her husband's life didn't live in Zernikow with her husband, much as she loved the estate otherwise, but in Berlin with her daughter and only returned to Zernikow after he had died. :(
Oh noooo :( Yeah, this guy sounds like maybe he could be a lot of fun in the short term but seriously bad news in the long term.
Alas yes. Now Caroline had divorced husband No.2 after only three months, which in her short "my life" text is explained by "weil ich mich gezwungen sah, mich wegen schlechter Begegnung im März 1759 wieder scheiden zu lassen" - "bad encounter" literally, might mean anything between "bad interaction" or that he married her in bad faith. And she was the one with the money. If you want to know my suspicion as to why she didn't divorce Labes, it's that by the time he showed his true colors, they had children. (Achim's mother was born on May 13th 1761, and her son on January 1st 1763, i.e. both still during the 7 Years War.) And then she might have loved him and taken a while to fall out of love. What she does write is:
Despite this marriage being happier than the previous one, it certainly wasn't so completely, least of all was it comparable to the one with my dear Fredersdorf. Despite many sad hours and harsh trials, I did try to live with this last husband for sixteen years, during which time he took his constant residence in Zernikow for the last nine, while I with both children took mine in Berlin in the Dorotheenstadt (quarter) in the Quaree close to the Brandenburg Gate, Unter den Linden, and lived in the impressive house there I still own, though I did visit him once or twice a year with the children for several weeks in order to preserve (parental) unity as much as it was possible to do.
Unter den Linden is the famous alley running to and through the Brandenburg Gate. Today, most of the embassies are there, and one of the most legendary hotels. That was a top notch address Caroline had for her town residence, which she didn't yet have while Mrs. Fredersdorf - they lived in Potsdam then, remember, which is also where Lehndorff visits Fredersdorf a few months before Fredersdorf's death. In a way, Caroline proves you could go wrong marrying for love in the 18th century just as much as if your marriage was arranged, but then again - she treasured her first marriage, and the children she got from the third, and had more independence than most spouses at that time. What I begrudge is that Labes the louse got to live in Zernikow for nine years just because he pissed Fritz off (if Achim tells the truth) and thus couldn't be the one to stay in town!
Next question: does Labes sound as if he could have been a drinking buddy of Kaphengst (living nearby in Meseberg at exactly the same time) or what?
Despite this marriage being happier than the previous one, it certainly wasn't so completely, least of all was it comparable to the one with my dear Fredersdorf. Despite many sad hours and harsh trials, I did try to live with this last husband for sixteen years, during which time he took his constant residence in Zernikow for the last nine, while I with both children took mine in Berlin in the Dorotheenstadt (quarter) in the Quaree close to the Brandenburg Gate, Unter den Linden, and lived in the impressive house there I still own, though I did visit him once or twice a year with the children for several weeks in order to preserve (parental) unity as much as it was possible to do.
Unter den Linden is the famous alley running to and through the Brandenburg Gate. Today, most of the embassies are there, and one of the most legendary hotels. That was a top notch address Caroline had for her town residence, which she didn't yet have while Mrs. Fredersdorf - they lived in Potsdam then, remember, which is also where Lehndorff visits Fredersdorf a few months before Fredersdorf's death. In a way, Caroline proves you could go wrong marrying for love in the 18th century just as much as if your marriage was arranged, but then again - she treasured her first marriage, and the children she got from the third, and had more independence than most spouses at that time. What I begrudge is that Labes the louse got to live in Zernikow for nine years just because he pissed Fritz off (if Achim tells the truth) and thus couldn't be the one to stay in town!
Next question: does Labes sound as if he could have been a drinking buddy of Kaphengst (living nearby in Meseberg at exactly the same time) or what?
In a way, Caroline proves you could go wrong marrying for love in the 18th century just as much as if your marriage was arranged
Indeed, but I note that her first marriage went really well, and that she was engaged again only 7 months later. In other words, Fredersdorf may have led her to believe that marriage for love was awesome and going to work out really well, and then no one else lived up to his standards.
What I begrudge is that Labes the louse got to live in Zernikow for nine years just because he pissed Fritz off (if Achim tells the truth) and thus couldn't be the one to stay in town!
I begrudge this too!
least of all was it comparable to the one with my dear Fredersdorf.
<333 I'm so glad we have her own words now.
Next question: does Labes sound as if he could have been a drinking buddy of Kaphengst (living nearby in Meseberg at exactly the same time) or what?
YES. And if Kaphengst is known for riding the countryside stirring up the leaves while hunting for local women (and men?) to have sex with, and Labes is getting men drunk so he can have sex with their wives, I'm going with these two as fellow fratboys.
Indeed, but I note that her first marriage went really well, and that she was engaged again only 7 months later. In other words, Fredersdorf may have led her to believe that marriage for love was awesome and going to work out really well, and then no one else lived up to his standards.
What I begrudge is that Labes the louse got to live in Zernikow for nine years just because he pissed Fritz off (if Achim tells the truth) and thus couldn't be the one to stay in town!
I begrudge this too!
least of all was it comparable to the one with my dear Fredersdorf.
<333 I'm so glad we have her own words now.
Next question: does Labes sound as if he could have been a drinking buddy of Kaphengst (living nearby in Meseberg at exactly the same time) or what?
YES. And if Kaphengst is known for riding the countryside stirring up the leaves while hunting for local women (and men?) to have sex with, and Labes is getting men drunk so he can have sex with their wives, I'm going with these two as fellow fratboys.
That was a top notch address Caroline had for her town residence, which she didn't yet have while Mrs. Fredersdorf - they lived in Potsdam then, remember
Interesting and indeed re: Unter den Linden. This is the place, bought 1760 according to Wiki - impressive is right. I know that Fredersdorf had a Berlin house at the Jägerbrücke at least in 1755, because the Adresskalender has his nephew living there that year, but he himself isn't mentioned in the Kalender - which is too bad, because I still really really want to know where he and Caroline lived in Potsdam and where Fritz stood underneath his window in 1754...
Interesting and indeed re: Unter den Linden. This is the place, bought 1760 according to Wiki - impressive is right. I know that Fredersdorf had a Berlin house at the Jägerbrücke at least in 1755, because the Adresskalender has his nephew living there that year, but he himself isn't mentioned in the Kalender - which is too bad, because I still really really want to know where he and Caroline lived in Potsdam and where Fritz stood underneath his window in 1754...
least of all was it comparable to the one with my dear Fredersdorf.
This is so my ship :D
What I begrudge is that Labes the louse got to live in Zernikow for nine years just because he pissed Fritz off (if Achim tells the truth) and thus couldn't be the one to stay in town!
Yeah >:
This is so my ship :D
What I begrudge is that Labes the louse got to live in Zernikow for nine years just because he pissed Fritz off (if Achim tells the truth) and thus couldn't be the one to stay in town!
Yeah >:
You can see both why Caroline at first fell for him and why it later went downhill, and Fredersdorf remained unseated as her favourite husband.
Yes and yes.
And this, mes amies, is why Caroline during these last years of her husband's life didn't live in Zernikow with her husband, much as she loved the estate otherwise, but in Berlin with her daughter and only returned to Zernikow after he had died. :(
:(
Curse you, Hans von Labes! But these anecdotes were very interesting, thank you so much. It's been great taking Caroline over the years from "woman Fritz didn't want Fredersdorf to marry" to someone with an interesting personality and life story in her own right. (Among the many best parts of salon is every time a name becomes a person.)
Yes and yes.
And this, mes amies, is why Caroline during these last years of her husband's life didn't live in Zernikow with her husband, much as she loved the estate otherwise, but in Berlin with her daughter and only returned to Zernikow after he had died. :(
:(
Curse you, Hans von Labes! But these anecdotes were very interesting, thank you so much. It's been great taking Caroline over the years from "woman Fritz didn't want Fredersdorf to marry" to someone with an interesting personality and life story in her own right. (Among the many best parts of salon is every time a name becomes a person.)
Just made a post ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
rheinsberg - let me know if there's something else from the discussion you want added (or if you think I included too much already/should change something :P). Plus, I don't have tagging rights, that's why there aren't any so far. :)
rheinsberg - let me know if there's something else from the discussion you want added (or if you think I included too much already/should change something :P). Plus, I don't have tagging rights, that's why there aren't any so far. :)I just saw you'd posted! No time to review it right now, but thanks so much! And I've granted you administrator access, which I hope gives you tagging rights? I didn't realize that wouldn't go with posting access. Let me know!
Belated reply to Selena from the previous post:
Thank you for looking at Droysen and Wallat for me! I'm still trying to read some of the Wallat sections for font practice, but it's slow going at the best of times, and there have been some delays. I am delighted that Droysen led us to the discovery of Wilhelmine's diary. One day we'll get our hands on it!
However, since Pöllnitz survived Wilhelmine by considerable time, he may in addition to whatever they told each other in 1744 have gotten a copy from the memoirs - or been allowed to read one and make excerpts - from Dr. Superville, who according to Droysen had the most extensive “Braunschweig” one, after her death. Given we simply don’t know when his own Histoire was finished, it could have been at any point before his own death.
Ahh, interesting. Yes, I agree you should go look for modern scholarship on the composition of her memoirs when you have time! Remember also that we wanted to compare the 1739 copy to the mid 1740s one to see how the takes on Fritz differed based on whether she was having a falling out or not.
Along with sense-making textual comparisons and critique there’s a lot of “FW would never”.
19th century historians are so great, right up until they're...not.
I had picked up on the pro-FW take even with the little reading I'd managed!
and “one believes one hears the Margravine speak” when FW’s parenting is described, which, however, doesn’t enhance Wilhelmine’s credibility (despite the fact Seckendorff can’t possibly have it from her), it just proves how biased Other Seckendorff is. Otoh, his “here stands one who will avenge me?” Quote? utterly credible und ace reporting.
UGH, yes. You can see why Arneth is so defensive!
I mean, he also does a lot of actual source comparisons. But that attitude is everywhere.
Yep. I'm here for the source comparisons, Wallat. Keep your opinions to yourself.
Also, MIldred, Wallat wants to know why Fritz doesn’t get more credit for HIS portrayal of FW in the Histoire, because clearly it’s the best ever.
Lol, I had strongly suspected that that's where he was going! Fritz the great historian! *cough*
Droysen says the one owned by Heinrich, for example, is written on paper from FW3’s era (with the water sign proving the paper was created only when FW3 was already king). (This fits with FW3 being the one to give the memoirs to Heinrich - evidently he didn’t give him an original but a copy to keep.)
Interesting! Yes, definitely interested in knowing more about the evolution of her memoirs when you have time.
Good lord. Never mind, I'll see whether I can sell the Stabi on my researcher creds
Tell them how creative, competent, and socially engaged you are. ;)
but not this year - next year!
That should give you time to learn French. :P More seriously, I just learned that only 100 copies each of volumes 1 and 2 were ever published. Volume 3 was projected but never published, and volume 4 copies have no indication of how many copies were printed total, but since it was privately printed, surely not many. I can see why no one ever uses this diary!
Thank you for looking at Droysen and Wallat for me! I'm still trying to read some of the Wallat sections for font practice, but it's slow going at the best of times, and there have been some delays. I am delighted that Droysen led us to the discovery of Wilhelmine's diary. One day we'll get our hands on it!
However, since Pöllnitz survived Wilhelmine by considerable time, he may in addition to whatever they told each other in 1744 have gotten a copy from the memoirs - or been allowed to read one and make excerpts - from Dr. Superville, who according to Droysen had the most extensive “Braunschweig” one, after her death. Given we simply don’t know when his own Histoire was finished, it could have been at any point before his own death.
Ahh, interesting. Yes, I agree you should go look for modern scholarship on the composition of her memoirs when you have time! Remember also that we wanted to compare the 1739 copy to the mid 1740s one to see how the takes on Fritz differed based on whether she was having a falling out or not.
Along with sense-making textual comparisons and critique there’s a lot of “FW would never”.
19th century historians are so great, right up until they're...not.
I had picked up on the pro-FW take even with the little reading I'd managed!
and “one believes one hears the Margravine speak” when FW’s parenting is described, which, however, doesn’t enhance Wilhelmine’s credibility (despite the fact Seckendorff can’t possibly have it from her), it just proves how biased Other Seckendorff is. Otoh, his “here stands one who will avenge me?” Quote? utterly credible und ace reporting.
UGH, yes. You can see why Arneth is so defensive!
I mean, he also does a lot of actual source comparisons. But that attitude is everywhere.
Yep. I'm here for the source comparisons, Wallat. Keep your opinions to yourself.
Also, MIldred, Wallat wants to know why Fritz doesn’t get more credit for HIS portrayal of FW in the Histoire, because clearly it’s the best ever.
Lol, I had strongly suspected that that's where he was going! Fritz the great historian! *cough*
Droysen says the one owned by Heinrich, for example, is written on paper from FW3’s era (with the water sign proving the paper was created only when FW3 was already king). (This fits with FW3 being the one to give the memoirs to Heinrich - evidently he didn’t give him an original but a copy to keep.)
Interesting! Yes, definitely interested in knowing more about the evolution of her memoirs when you have time.
Good lord. Never mind, I'll see whether I can sell the Stabi on my researcher creds
Tell them how creative, competent, and socially engaged you are. ;)
but not this year - next year!
That should give you time to learn French. :P More seriously, I just learned that only 100 copies each of volumes 1 and 2 were ever published. Volume 3 was projected but never published, and volume 4 copies have no indication of how many copies were printed total, but since it was privately printed, surely not many. I can see why no one ever uses this diary!
Reply to felis and the thread that followed:
For completeness sake: Frexit Letter in March, with two replies from Fritz in March (where he says that apparently, one of the Marwitzes at Bayreuth tried to set up a marriage for Pöllnitz, which fell through) and April (see below) / retraction letter in July, with a reply from Fritz where he installs the condition that, among other things, Pöllnitz isn't allowed to talk to foreign envoys about things that happened at the King's table anymore.
Thank you for the details! And the satirical job reference is hilarious.
Obvious question is obvious: did he expect Pöllnitz to obey?
I have to point out that Voltaire was also made to sign an agreement not to satirize members of Fritz's court, and we don't know what on earth Fritz expected there! :P
Dorothée = Dorothea Sophie (WHY? she wasn't even from Hanover! :P
It's not just Hanover! Katte's mom was Dorothea Sophia von Wartensleben!
Re: the poisoning suspicion - independent of whether or not it is true, it's definitely not just Pöllnitz who brought it up...This comes up, among other things, when Fritz is interrogated after the escape attempt and points to the precedence of Granddad as crown prince getting the hell out of Prussia. (To which FW said it had been totally different since his father had been afraid of poison as far as I recall.)
Whenfelis mentioned the poisoning story, I remembered that you'd told us on more than one occasion that F1 had accused his stepmother of poison and fled, but the interrogation protocols were the only primary source I could name, and that's a couple generations later. Do you know of more contemporary sources, Selena?
Yeah, terrible medicine and court rumour mills seem like a perfect combination for fostering poisoning theories...
Indeed.
felis and the thread that followed:For completeness sake: Frexit Letter in March, with two replies from Fritz in March (where he says that apparently, one of the Marwitzes at Bayreuth tried to set up a marriage for Pöllnitz, which fell through) and April (see below) / retraction letter in July, with a reply from Fritz where he installs the condition that, among other things, Pöllnitz isn't allowed to talk to foreign envoys about things that happened at the King's table anymore.
Thank you for the details! And the satirical job reference is hilarious.
Obvious question is obvious: did he expect Pöllnitz to obey?
I have to point out that Voltaire was also made to sign an agreement not to satirize members of Fritz's court, and we don't know what on earth Fritz expected there! :P
Dorothée = Dorothea Sophie (WHY? she wasn't even from Hanover! :P
It's not just Hanover! Katte's mom was Dorothea Sophia von Wartensleben!
Re: the poisoning suspicion - independent of whether or not it is true, it's definitely not just Pöllnitz who brought it up...This comes up, among other things, when Fritz is interrogated after the escape attempt and points to the precedence of Granddad as crown prince getting the hell out of Prussia. (To which FW said it had been totally different since his father had been afraid of poison as far as I recall.)
When
felis mentioned the poisoning story, I remembered that you'd told us on more than one occasion that F1 had accused his stepmother of poison and fled, but the interrogation protocols were the only primary source I could name, and that's a couple generations later. Do you know of more contemporary sources, Selena?Yeah, terrible medicine and court rumour mills seem like a perfect combination for fostering poisoning theories...
Indeed.
It's not just Hanover! Katte's mom was Dorothea Sophia von Wartensleben!
But Katte's mom was the daughter of a chief courtier of F1's, and thus presumably could have been named after any of the Hannover Sophies. F1's stepmom has no excuse!
Btw, Original Sophie tells us how that name came to pass in her snarky memoirs. You may recall that she was the twelfth child of the Winter Queen. (And would be the youngest surviving child). Her brothers' names for the most part read like a check list of whoever Elizabeth Stuart would help her (hence, for example, a Gustavus Adolphus among them) in the 30 Years War and her exile. The girls were given the usual Stuart family names. But by the time No.12 arrived, they had simply run out of names and supposedly did a lottery of sorts with the few ladies in waiting asked to write a name on a bit of paper. Presto, Sophia/Sophie, first of her name in either family (i.e. the Stuarts and the Palatine Wittelsbachs). But not the last by far. :)
I have to point out that Voltaire was also made to sign an agreement not to satirize members of Fritz's court, and we don't know what on earth Fritz expected there! :P
Verily. I mean. Presumably people who never met Voltaire and hadn't read a word of his writing would have expected him to stick to that agreement, but...
Do you know of more contemporary sources, Selena?
Alas Sophie's memoirs end before that bit of scandal (which indirectly would lead to her becoming F1's mother-in-law since it was to Hannover he fled), and the Schnath-edited letters between Sophie and Team Hohenzollern start afterwards. The letter from F1 to Sophie I've repeatedly quoted doesn't mention poison, it just illustrates he had a bad relationship with his stepmother. However, his German wiki entry details the poison accusation story at length and doesn't reference Pöllnitz as source; the footnotes are all to modern biographies, and I guess I'll have to put those on my list, too, to see what they use as source material.
(The German wiki entry also says that right until the 20th century, Fritz' opinion on Granddad was taken as gospel by historians, and only the later 20th century went "hang on, it wasn't that simple".)
Another possibility to check would be Liselotte's letters. Of course she could only provide hearsay, being in France, but presumably the fact future F1 wanted a guarantee in writing he couldn't get killed before returning to Brandenburg would have made waves enough for her to hear about it. However, any edition of the letters is slanted by whatever the editor in question thought would be good for their audience, and the free one on kindle is a 19th century one with an eye on German nationalism and French decadence, so something not flattering to the Hohenzollern clan like that might not have made the cut. I'll check anyway.
But Katte's mom was the daughter of a chief courtier of F1's, and thus presumably could have been named after any of the Hannover Sophies. F1's stepmom has no excuse!
Btw, Original Sophie tells us how that name came to pass in her snarky memoirs. You may recall that she was the twelfth child of the Winter Queen. (And would be the youngest surviving child). Her brothers' names for the most part read like a check list of whoever Elizabeth Stuart would help her (hence, for example, a Gustavus Adolphus among them) in the 30 Years War and her exile. The girls were given the usual Stuart family names. But by the time No.12 arrived, they had simply run out of names and supposedly did a lottery of sorts with the few ladies in waiting asked to write a name on a bit of paper. Presto, Sophia/Sophie, first of her name in either family (i.e. the Stuarts and the Palatine Wittelsbachs). But not the last by far. :)
I have to point out that Voltaire was also made to sign an agreement not to satirize members of Fritz's court, and we don't know what on earth Fritz expected there! :P
Verily. I mean. Presumably people who never met Voltaire and hadn't read a word of his writing would have expected him to stick to that agreement, but...
Do you know of more contemporary sources, Selena?
Alas Sophie's memoirs end before that bit of scandal (which indirectly would lead to her becoming F1's mother-in-law since it was to Hannover he fled), and the Schnath-edited letters between Sophie and Team Hohenzollern start afterwards. The letter from F1 to Sophie I've repeatedly quoted doesn't mention poison, it just illustrates he had a bad relationship with his stepmother. However, his German wiki entry details the poison accusation story at length and doesn't reference Pöllnitz as source; the footnotes are all to modern biographies, and I guess I'll have to put those on my list, too, to see what they use as source material.
(The German wiki entry also says that right until the 20th century, Fritz' opinion on Granddad was taken as gospel by historians, and only the later 20th century went "hang on, it wasn't that simple".)
Another possibility to check would be Liselotte's letters. Of course she could only provide hearsay, being in France, but presumably the fact future F1 wanted a guarantee in writing he couldn't get killed before returning to Brandenburg would have made waves enough for her to hear about it. However, any edition of the letters is slanted by whatever the editor in question thought would be good for their audience, and the free one on kindle is a 19th century one with an eye on German nationalism and French decadence, so something not flattering to the Hohenzollern clan like that might not have made the cut. I'll check anyway.
Sophie wrote the following to Lieselotte's sister Karoline (June 1687):
Der gutte Courprins bekombt aber ein hauffen böe brif von Dero Herr Vatter, welger I. L. verfluchen wollen, wan sie nicht widerum nach Berlin gehen, welches I. L. gern thun wolten, wan die poudre de succession nicht thar ihm schwang ging undt I. L. schon selber in gefhar tharvon weren gewessen‚ aber doch durch ein hauffen contrepoisen sein errett worden undt sich nun gottlob recht wol befinden.
[ETA: English translation, because that's not exactly easy German: The good electoral prince [?] is getting a lot of angry letters from his father, who wants to execrate him if he doesn't go back to Berlin. Which the prince would like to do if there wasn't succession powder [nice] going around and if he hadn't been in danger himself already, getting rescued through a bunch of antitoxin and feeling well now, thank God.]
See here, page 48, and it looks like there's also a Lieselotte letter on the topic, but not quoted. The book is a dissertation about the Schwedt line and unfortunately, the poisoning chapter has inconvenient gaps in the google preview, but it's clear that the author thinks it's all BS and Dorothea was unfairly judged in general. He also isn't a big fan of F1 or Sophie it seems, but the book might still be worth a look at some point, not least because he seems to have included a lot of unpublished letters from the state archive.
Der gutte Courprins bekombt aber ein hauffen böe brif von Dero Herr Vatter, welger I. L. verfluchen wollen, wan sie nicht widerum nach Berlin gehen, welches I. L. gern thun wolten, wan die poudre de succession nicht thar ihm schwang ging undt I. L. schon selber in gefhar tharvon weren gewessen‚ aber doch durch ein hauffen contrepoisen sein errett worden undt sich nun gottlob recht wol befinden.
[ETA: English translation, because that's not exactly easy German: The good electoral prince [?] is getting a lot of angry letters from his father, who wants to execrate him if he doesn't go back to Berlin. Which the prince would like to do if there wasn't succession powder [nice] going around and if he hadn't been in danger himself already, getting rescued through a bunch of antitoxin and feeling well now, thank God.]
See here, page 48, and it looks like there's also a Lieselotte letter on the topic, but not quoted. The book is a dissertation about the Schwedt line and unfortunately, the poisoning chapter has inconvenient gaps in the google preview, but it's clear that the author thinks it's all BS and Dorothea was unfairly judged in general. He also isn't a big fan of F1 or Sophie it seems, but the book might still be worth a look at some point, not least because he seems to have included a lot of unpublished letters from the state archive.
Edited 2021-07-26 09:12 (UTC)
Excellent detecting! (Also, LOL about Sophie's baroque German.) Looking at your link, I also see he thinks the "Pride of the Welfes" (that's House Hannover, cahn) has ruined two Hohenzollern father/son relationships, i.e. Great Elector/F1 and FW/Fritz, which automatically gets my hackles up. Do I think SD and her insistence on the English marriage project is partly to blame for the unfolding disaster that was FW/his oldest two children? Yes, but not nearly as much as FW, and the letters from young SD (both the ones you quoted and the ones I saw in the Sophie correspondence) convinced me she really did try her utmost to be a "good wife" as the era understood it and to help her children with FW before things went beyond dysfunctional and she and FW were at warfare point. And even if she hadn't insisted on the British project, Fritz and his father would still have had a terrible relationship if FW hadn't tried a very different type of parenting. That wasn't the "pride of the Welfs".
As for F1 & the Great Elector, I haven't read a biography of either yet, and the Barbara Beuys covers it from the Sophie(s) angle and hence probably has bias in the other direction, but by the time Sophie met young future F1, he was already an adult married man (to his first wife, the one who died even younger than Sophie Charlotte would). Beuys thinks one reason why F1 took to the Hannover clan even before marrying into it was that he didn't get much affection from Dad (independent from the stepmother question), and given he was son No.3, physically handicapped and was expected to die young through much of his childhood, I wouldn't be surprised if she was right.
Mind you, I'm completely prepared to believe Dorothea the stepmother was innocent of any poisoning. As can be seen from the other examples I listed several replies ago, it really was the go to suspicion and accusation in several cases where today we're as sure as can be no such thing happened, and it was bad medicine and illness instead. But otoh I also can see why people got the suspicion(s) in the first case in several if not all of these situations. Dorothea's children would only have a chance at the Elector title if all of his sons from his previous marriage were dead, and since both the two older ones and the younger brother from the earlier marriage died, leaving only F1, I can see him getting paranoid, especially if he'd had the suspicion that his father would rather have a manlier, healthy successor to begin with. He didn't need his in-laws for that.
BTw, I'm reading a book about Elizabeth Stuart and her daughters, "Daughters of the Winter Queen", and what do you know, as a young guy, the Great Elector romanced Sophie's older sister Louisa! (The one who was a gifted painter, and ended up a Catholic abbess at Maubisson much to her mother's horror. Sophie and little Sophie Charlotte visited her en route to Versailles.) Alas his parent had an eye on money, of which the Winter Stuarts didn't have much. So no young Elector/Louisa match.
cahn) has ruined two Hohenzollern father/son relationships, i.e. Great Elector/F1 and FW/Fritz, which automatically gets my hackles up. Do I think SD and her insistence on the English marriage project is partly to blame for the unfolding disaster that was FW/his oldest two children? Yes, but not nearly as much as FW, and the letters from young SD (both the ones you quoted and the ones I saw in the Sophie correspondence) convinced me she really did try her utmost to be a "good wife" as the era understood it and to help her children with FW before things went beyond dysfunctional and she and FW were at warfare point. And even if she hadn't insisted on the British project, Fritz and his father would still have had a terrible relationship if FW hadn't tried a very different type of parenting. That wasn't the "pride of the Welfs". As for F1 & the Great Elector, I haven't read a biography of either yet, and the Barbara Beuys covers it from the Sophie(s) angle and hence probably has bias in the other direction, but by the time Sophie met young future F1, he was already an adult married man (to his first wife, the one who died even younger than Sophie Charlotte would). Beuys thinks one reason why F1 took to the Hannover clan even before marrying into it was that he didn't get much affection from Dad (independent from the stepmother question), and given he was son No.3, physically handicapped and was expected to die young through much of his childhood, I wouldn't be surprised if she was right.
Mind you, I'm completely prepared to believe Dorothea the stepmother was innocent of any poisoning. As can be seen from the other examples I listed several replies ago, it really was the go to suspicion and accusation in several cases where today we're as sure as can be no such thing happened, and it was bad medicine and illness instead. But otoh I also can see why people got the suspicion(s) in the first case in several if not all of these situations. Dorothea's children would only have a chance at the Elector title if all of his sons from his previous marriage were dead, and since both the two older ones and the younger brother from the earlier marriage died, leaving only F1, I can see him getting paranoid, especially if he'd had the suspicion that his father would rather have a manlier, healthy successor to begin with. He didn't need his in-laws for that.
BTw, I'm reading a book about Elizabeth Stuart and her daughters, "Daughters of the Winter Queen", and what do you know, as a young guy, the Great Elector romanced Sophie's older sister Louisa! (The one who was a gifted painter, and ended up a Catholic abbess at Maubisson much to her mother's horror. Sophie and little Sophie Charlotte visited her en route to Versailles.) Alas his parent had an eye on money, of which the Winter Stuarts didn't have much. So no young Elector/Louisa match.
Yes, A+ detecting, Holmes! And thank you for the translation, haha, because I was going to ask you for one. I gave it my best shot, and at the end, I was like, "Help." Now that I have the translation, I see what everything is, but on my own I was having to translate into modern German and thence into English, and I was getting about half of it.
Anyone who wants to read a Great Elector and/or F1 bio has my vote!
Anyone who wants to read a Great Elector and/or F1 bio has my vote!
F1's stepmom has no excuse!
ROFL!
Btw, Original Sophie tells us how that name came to pass in her snarky memoirs...But by the time No.12 arrived, they had simply run out of names and supposedly did a lottery of sorts with the few ladies in waiting asked to write a name on a bit of paper. Presto, Sophia/Sophie, first of her name in either family (i.e. the Stuarts and the Palatine Wittelsbachs). But not the last by far. :)
Ahhh, cool, I didn't know that. Thank you for sharing!
ROFL!
Btw, Original Sophie tells us how that name came to pass in her snarky memoirs...But by the time No.12 arrived, they had simply run out of names and supposedly did a lottery of sorts with the few ladies in waiting asked to write a name on a bit of paper. Presto, Sophia/Sophie, first of her name in either family (i.e. the Stuarts and the Palatine Wittelsbachs). But not the last by far. :)
Ahhh, cool, I didn't know that. Thank you for sharing!
But by the time No.12 arrived, they had simply run out of names and supposedly did a lottery of sorts with the few ladies in waiting asked to write a name on a bit of paper.
Ha! That's awesome. (Also they should have done that more :P )
Ha! That's awesome. (Also they should have done that more :P )
Thanks to Czernin's annotated bibliography, I discovered that Montesquieu traveled through Germany in 1728-1729 and kept a diary that is muuuuch easier to access than Wilhelmine's Italian counterpart! I obtained a recent German translation (lol, the day has come that my German is better than my French) via Kindle. Due to the slowness of my German and the busy-ness of my week, I've only read the couple of pages dealing with FW so far. No new information, but a couple of gems.
First of all, Montesquieu gives no signs that I can see (conceding my German and time limitations) that he met any of the Prussian royals, and this leads me to believe he's purely reporting hearsay. (He did get to meet G2, it seems.) He's also reporting hearsay from a French perspective, so he has no time for FW and is very concerned that the Catholic religion is disappearing in Prussia and Hanover (where he also visited and where there might be some stuff of interest for Selena to find, along with many other principalities).
So the entire Prussia section is just an anti-FW diatribe with a dash of anti-Prussia. FW's terrible, he's a miser, he beats his officers and soldiers, and he starves his family. Fritz would give up his title as crown prince in exchange for a 100 pound pension. (I mean, in 1729, that's borderline accurate.) Prussian fathers are sending their sons to other countries, merchants don't want to do business in Prussia because they'll get impressed into the army, the army wants to desert, and in general the population is fleeing the country. One-sided, but you start out almost with him, watch it get more and more exaggerated...and then you hit the part where Montesquieu concludes that, as a result, FW's power is going to gradually collapse on its own. You wish, Montesquieu. No credit to FW for making his country financially solvent or putting together an army that might someday kick French butt. Oh, and the Old Dessauer gets a diss for being a miser and just like FW too.
Montesquieu does mention the autumn 1729 incident between Prussia and Hanover where they almost went to war, though no duel that I can see. (Sadly, the dissertation I'm reading by one of the foremost English language scholars of diplomacy of the period, Jeremy Black, covers the incident in excruciating detail and does not once mention an almost duel!)
But the best quote of all, amidst several passages ragging on FW for his kidnapping of tall soldiers:
He loves his soldiers, beats them liberally, and then kisses them afterward.
That alone was worth the cost of the Kindle book.
Either Selena or I will someday have to read the whole thing and report back. There's an elaborate description of the Herrenhausen water works, which I presume he did see. (Perhaps G2 should have given some tips to Fritz? :P)
Ha, I just flipped to the imperial court in Vienna section, and I see he's describing the people he's gotten to know, and he starts with, "Eugene, who is pretty well known," and then moves onto the next person. Needs no introduction!
A fair amount of Duke of Berwick, James II's illegitimate son who distinguished himself in the War of the Spanish Succession, with whom Montesquieu is friends. Some of their letters are included.
That's all I have time for now, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't share FW kissing and making up with his soldiers.
First of all, Montesquieu gives no signs that I can see (conceding my German and time limitations) that he met any of the Prussian royals, and this leads me to believe he's purely reporting hearsay. (He did get to meet G2, it seems.) He's also reporting hearsay from a French perspective, so he has no time for FW and is very concerned that the Catholic religion is disappearing in Prussia and Hanover (where he also visited and where there might be some stuff of interest for Selena to find, along with many other principalities).
So the entire Prussia section is just an anti-FW diatribe with a dash of anti-Prussia. FW's terrible, he's a miser, he beats his officers and soldiers, and he starves his family. Fritz would give up his title as crown prince in exchange for a 100 pound pension. (I mean, in 1729, that's borderline accurate.) Prussian fathers are sending their sons to other countries, merchants don't want to do business in Prussia because they'll get impressed into the army, the army wants to desert, and in general the population is fleeing the country. One-sided, but you start out almost with him, watch it get more and more exaggerated...and then you hit the part where Montesquieu concludes that, as a result, FW's power is going to gradually collapse on its own. You wish, Montesquieu. No credit to FW for making his country financially solvent or putting together an army that might someday kick French butt. Oh, and the Old Dessauer gets a diss for being a miser and just like FW too.
Montesquieu does mention the autumn 1729 incident between Prussia and Hanover where they almost went to war, though no duel that I can see. (Sadly, the dissertation I'm reading by one of the foremost English language scholars of diplomacy of the period, Jeremy Black, covers the incident in excruciating detail and does not once mention an almost duel!)
But the best quote of all, amidst several passages ragging on FW for his kidnapping of tall soldiers:
He loves his soldiers, beats them liberally, and then kisses them afterward.
That alone was worth the cost of the Kindle book.
Either Selena or I will someday have to read the whole thing and report back. There's an elaborate description of the Herrenhausen water works, which I presume he did see. (Perhaps G2 should have given some tips to Fritz? :P)
Ha, I just flipped to the imperial court in Vienna section, and I see he's describing the people he's gotten to know, and he starts with, "Eugene, who is pretty well known," and then moves onto the next person. Needs no introduction!
A fair amount of Duke of Berwick, James II's illegitimate son who distinguished himself in the War of the Spanish Succession, with whom Montesquieu is friends. Some of their letters are included.
That's all I have time for now, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't share FW kissing and making up with his soldiers.
Wait, did I describe how Berwick died? I meant to in one of my many Spanish Succession posts, but I don't think I did. He died at Philippsburg (the War of the Polish Succession siege in 1734, where Fritz met Eugene, and Voltaire was hanging around on the other side), and this is how he died.
French artillery: *is shelling Philippsburg*
French guards: *are keeping people from straying into the area being shelled*
Berwick: Let me pass!
French guards: No one can pass!
Berwick: Do you know who I am?
French guards: But sir, the whole area-
Berwick: I am the son of a king and a war hero and a general and marshal of France! I outrank you and I order you to let me pass!
French guards: But, sir, if you'll let us explain-
Berwick: DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?
French guards: FINE. On your own head be it. Literally.
Berwick: *rides past the line of guards*
Berwick's head, 30 seconds later: *is ripped off by a cannonball, presumably a French one*
French guards: We tried to tell him.
I must balance that with a more favorable anecdote: whenever Philip V was going ballistic because the Catalonians were supporting the Austrian cause (when, you know, they had been under Allied occupation during the war) and trying to treat entire besieged cities as nothing less than attainted traitors, Berwick, who was the general in charge of besieging the cities and bringing Catalonia back under Spanish control, kept going, "Look! Philip! Please understand that I'm on your side here when I say that these are your SUBJECTS and you can't treat them the same way you treat your ENEMIES. Maybe if you would be NICE to them, they might not REVOLT, because they have some LEGITIMATE grievances...you're not listening, are you. *sigh*"
And he very much tried to get out of invading Spain a few years later during the War of the Quadruple Alliance in 1719 and was very sad at having to make war on Philip.
So that is Berwick in the latter part of his life.
French artillery: *is shelling Philippsburg*
French guards: *are keeping people from straying into the area being shelled*
Berwick: Let me pass!
French guards: No one can pass!
Berwick: Do you know who I am?
French guards: But sir, the whole area-
Berwick: I am the son of a king and a war hero and a general and marshal of France! I outrank you and I order you to let me pass!
French guards: But, sir, if you'll let us explain-
Berwick: DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?
French guards: FINE. On your own head be it. Literally.
Berwick: *rides past the line of guards*
Berwick's head, 30 seconds later: *is ripped off by a cannonball, presumably a French one*
French guards: We tried to tell him.
I must balance that with a more favorable anecdote: whenever Philip V was going ballistic because the Catalonians were supporting the Austrian cause (when, you know, they had been under Allied occupation during the war) and trying to treat entire besieged cities as nothing less than attainted traitors, Berwick, who was the general in charge of besieging the cities and bringing Catalonia back under Spanish control, kept going, "Look! Philip! Please understand that I'm on your side here when I say that these are your SUBJECTS and you can't treat them the same way you treat your ENEMIES. Maybe if you would be NICE to them, they might not REVOLT, because they have some LEGITIMATE grievances...you're not listening, are you. *sigh*"
And he very much tried to get out of invading Spain a few years later during the War of the Quadruple Alliance in 1719 and was very sad at having to make war on Philip.
So that is Berwick in the latter part of his life.
Berwick: DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?
Self: *looks up who his mother was*
Self. Oh God. A Churchill. Sister to Marlborough (when he was still in his boytoy to Barbara Villiers phase), no less. I mean, I'm sure Horowski mentioned this, as these kind of cross connections are his favourites, but I had forgotten. For a combination of the Stuart with the Churchill gene pool, he sounds, except for his death, amazingly sensible, but maybe in the end those genes got him. :)
Self: *looks up who his mother was*
Self. Oh God. A Churchill. Sister to Marlborough (when he was still in his boytoy to Barbara Villiers phase), no less. I mean, I'm sure Horowski mentioned this, as these kind of cross connections are his favourites, but I had forgotten. For a combination of the Stuart with the Churchill gene pool, he sounds, except for his death, amazingly sensible, but maybe in the end those genes got him. :)
I'm sure Horowski mentioned this, as these kind of cross connections are his favourites, but I had forgotten.
He did! At least once, and maybe more than once, but I've at least run into it more than once in my Spanish Succession reading.
For a combination of the Stuart with the Churchill gene pool, he sounds, except for his death, amazingly sensible, but maybe in the end those genes got him. :)
Hahaha, that's hilarious. Yes, new headcanon, that's exactly what happened.
He did! At least once, and maybe more than once, but I've at least run into it more than once in my Spanish Succession reading.
For a combination of the Stuart with the Churchill gene pool, he sounds, except for his death, amazingly sensible, but maybe in the end those genes got him. :)
Hahaha, that's hilarious. Yes, new headcanon, that's exactly what happened.
Now that’s a find! Upon reading your comment, I checked out the free sample which is the preface from the German translator and editor. Who mentions who Montesquieu’s informant on all things Prussia & FW was. (Including, I take it, that priceless quote on FW & his tall soldiers.) It was… drumroll… the PM of Braunschweig-Wolffenbüttel, von Stain. Meaning: the very guy who was getting the Disney reports on FW from Stratemann, and who presumably was already working on the various Brunswick/Hohenzollern marriage alliances which would come into existence very soon (starting with Charlotte/next duke of Brunswick, then Fritz/EC and AW/Louise). Now either Montesquieu is employing liberal dramatization of what he’s heard, or Stain had other informants than Stratemann, or….?
Since it’s a relatively recent publication, I also googled the reviews, and it seems Montesquieu spotted future federalism in the HRE structure and liked it*, but also thought Germans in general were somewhat thick and not capable of intellectual thought and not even that well suited as servants.
*It’s to this day one of the largest differences between Germany and France, where the cultural and administrive Paris-centrism despite some modification still rules. Whereas we are a Federalist Republic which is anything but Berlin-centric, plus Berlin of course only became the general German capital between 1872 - 1945, and then again after unification in 1991.
Waterworks at Herrenhausen: well, they are something to behold! The gardens of Herrenhausen are largely Sophie’s work, btw. (And she died during a stroll through them when sudden rain made everyone run for cover.). I mean, check it out:
Take that, Sanssouci. The small ones are also nice, like this:
And, you know, Herrenhausen in general.
All together now:
G1 & G2: And that’s why we came back here, constant bitching by our British subjects not withstanding!
Since it’s a relatively recent publication, I also googled the reviews, and it seems Montesquieu spotted future federalism in the HRE structure and liked it*, but also thought Germans in general were somewhat thick and not capable of intellectual thought and not even that well suited as servants.
*It’s to this day one of the largest differences between Germany and France, where the cultural and administrive Paris-centrism despite some modification still rules. Whereas we are a Federalist Republic which is anything but Berlin-centric, plus Berlin of course only became the general German capital between 1872 - 1945, and then again after unification in 1991.
Waterworks at Herrenhausen: well, they are something to behold! The gardens of Herrenhausen are largely Sophie’s work, btw. (And she died during a stroll through them when sudden rain made everyone run for cover.). I mean, check it out:
Take that, Sanssouci. The small ones are also nice, like this:
And, you know, Herrenhausen in general.
All together now:
G1 & G2: And that’s why we came back here, constant bitching by our British subjects not withstanding!
Edited 2021-07-26 04:24 (UTC)
Now that’s a find!
Glad you liked it! Credit to you for finding Czernin and pointing me in that direction.
I think you would like the whole work, it's only 200 pages, and it is at the Stabi. Before I bought it, I was naturally checking to see if you could get it in e-book form on the Stabi website, because it's so recent, but alas, no. But what I did find is the "people who research this book are also interested in" item description that read:
Grösse und Niedergang Roms: (1734) = Considérations sur les causes de la grandeur des Romains et de leur décadence; Montesquieu. Mit den Randbemerkungen Friedrichs des Grossen. Übers. und hrsg. von Lothar Schuckert. Fischer-Taschenbuch-Verl., Frankfurt am Main, 1980
In other words, the greatness and decline of Rome, by Montesquieu, with marginal notes by our Fritz! Since the publication date is 1980 and the text is translated, I'm guessing that means Schuckert translated not just the work but also the Fritzian notes into German. I would be super interested to know what Fritz thought of Montesquieu's take on the greatness and decline of Rome! As we've seen, Fritz has some iiiiinteresting Classics opinions! (Socrates was killed? All the sculptors' faults!)
Meaning: the very guy who was getting the Disney reports on FW from Stratemann,
What.
Now either Montesquieu is employing liberal dramatization of what he’s heard, or Stain had other informants than Stratemann, or….?
Well, he can't just be liberally dramatizing what he got from Stratemann via Stain, because his take on FW matches too many other people's. Especially FW starving his family--one of the sentences reads like it could have come straight out of Wilhelmine.
Montesquieu:
One dies of hunger there [at FW's table]. Only one dish is served at a time, which is passed around, and often almost all of it is consumed before the round is over.
Wilhelmine:
There were constantly twenty-four persons at table, eighteen of whom were kept fasting, because our ordinary consisted but of six dishes, and those very sparingly filled.
Whether or not this is an exaggerated anti-FW take like Rottembourg and his two-pronged fork accusation, it's unlikely Montesquieu independently made it up based on Mr. Disney.
Also, I didn't recognize Stain's name, and sure enough, the Stratemann volume's preface names Minister Hieronymus von Münchhausen as the intended recipient of his reports. Doesn't mean von Stain didn't see them, but it would help account for a discrepancy. I imagine one or both of Münchhausen and Stain had other sources.
Incidentally, the ADB says that von Stain in 1729
directed the business of the negotiations conducted in Braunschweig in 1729 under the mediation of the Dukes of Braunschweig and Gotha, which resulted in a settlement of the disputes pending between Prussia and England at the time.
So I imagine he 1) didn't see FW as a saint, 2) had more than one source on him!
it seems Montesquieu spotted future federalism in the HRE structure and liked it
I saw that from the table of contents! I was really hoping to read a lot more, including this, last week, before I did my first post, but reading a lot of German last week did not happen.
also thought Germans in general were somewhat thick and not capable of intellectual thought and not even that well suited as servants.
...Did not catch that. Sigh.
Finally: lovely pictures, thank you for sharing! And lucky you and lucky Georges!
Glad you liked it! Credit to you for finding Czernin and pointing me in that direction.
I think you would like the whole work, it's only 200 pages, and it is at the Stabi. Before I bought it, I was naturally checking to see if you could get it in e-book form on the Stabi website, because it's so recent, but alas, no. But what I did find is the "people who research this book are also interested in" item description that read:
Grösse und Niedergang Roms: (1734) = Considérations sur les causes de la grandeur des Romains et de leur décadence; Montesquieu. Mit den Randbemerkungen Friedrichs des Grossen. Übers. und hrsg. von Lothar Schuckert. Fischer-Taschenbuch-Verl., Frankfurt am Main, 1980
In other words, the greatness and decline of Rome, by Montesquieu, with marginal notes by our Fritz! Since the publication date is 1980 and the text is translated, I'm guessing that means Schuckert translated not just the work but also the Fritzian notes into German. I would be super interested to know what Fritz thought of Montesquieu's take on the greatness and decline of Rome! As we've seen, Fritz has some iiiiinteresting Classics opinions! (Socrates was killed? All the sculptors' faults!)
Meaning: the very guy who was getting the Disney reports on FW from Stratemann,
What.
Now either Montesquieu is employing liberal dramatization of what he’s heard, or Stain had other informants than Stratemann, or….?
Well, he can't just be liberally dramatizing what he got from Stratemann via Stain, because his take on FW matches too many other people's. Especially FW starving his family--one of the sentences reads like it could have come straight out of Wilhelmine.
Montesquieu:
One dies of hunger there [at FW's table]. Only one dish is served at a time, which is passed around, and often almost all of it is consumed before the round is over.
Wilhelmine:
There were constantly twenty-four persons at table, eighteen of whom were kept fasting, because our ordinary consisted but of six dishes, and those very sparingly filled.
Whether or not this is an exaggerated anti-FW take like Rottembourg and his two-pronged fork accusation, it's unlikely Montesquieu independently made it up based on Mr. Disney.
Also, I didn't recognize Stain's name, and sure enough, the Stratemann volume's preface names Minister Hieronymus von Münchhausen as the intended recipient of his reports. Doesn't mean von Stain didn't see them, but it would help account for a discrepancy. I imagine one or both of Münchhausen and Stain had other sources.
Incidentally, the ADB says that von Stain in 1729
directed the business of the negotiations conducted in Braunschweig in 1729 under the mediation of the Dukes of Braunschweig and Gotha, which resulted in a settlement of the disputes pending between Prussia and England at the time.
So I imagine he 1) didn't see FW as a saint, 2) had more than one source on him!
it seems Montesquieu spotted future federalism in the HRE structure and liked it
I saw that from the table of contents! I was really hoping to read a lot more, including this, last week, before I did my first post, but reading a lot of German last week did not happen.
also thought Germans in general were somewhat thick and not capable of intellectual thought and not even that well suited as servants.
...Did not catch that. Sigh.
Finally: lovely pictures, thank you for sharing! And lucky you and lucky Georges!
Edited 2021-07-27 00:55 (UTC)
Okay, I ordered Montesquieus German travels from the Stabi, but his take on the decline and fall of the Roman empire with Fritzian commentary - which I also would love to know! - is only available in the reading room. Not the special one, thankfully, but the reading room nonetheless. See here. The French original, otoh, WITH the Fritz comments is available to be taken home. But I'm not up to Montesquieu AND Fritz in French, Mildred.
ETA: Just saw I could get it as a paperback for less than 7 Euro. Okay, ordered.
Especially FW starving his family
One of many things Wallat & Droyson accuse Wilhelmine of inventing out of thin air, I might add.
ETA: Just saw I could get it as a paperback for less than 7 Euro. Okay, ordered.
Especially FW starving his family
One of many things Wallat & Droyson accuse Wilhelmine of inventing out of thin air, I might add.
Edited 2021-07-27 14:57 (UTC)
But I'm not up to Montesquieu AND Fritz in French, Mildred.
LOLOL, I didn't think so, which is why I pointed you toward a German copy! Although feel free to start studying French any time, I'm going to be busy with German for a while longer. ;)
ETA: Just saw I could get it as a paperback for less than 7 Euro. Okay, ordered.
Excellent! Such a dedicated salon we are.
One of many things Wallat & Droyson accuse Wilhelmine of inventing out of thin air, I might add.
And not just them, but didn't you in recent months find modern scholars arguing that FW provided abundant food, just middle-class German food instead of fancy French food? (I don't necessarily find envoys' experiences counterevidence; people often punish children by making them go hungry
I wish we had the source for Ziebura's report that AW said he was half-starved as a child (which, admittedly, was apparently a thing for royals and nobles in the 18th century, and often had more to do with servant neglect than parental intentions). I'd love to know where that comes from. I also wish the summary of his life, exaggerated arrest in Strasbourg included, had been published by someone!
LOLOL, I didn't think so, which is why I pointed you toward a German copy! Although feel free to start studying French any time, I'm going to be busy with German for a while longer. ;)
ETA: Just saw I could get it as a paperback for less than 7 Euro. Okay, ordered.
Excellent! Such a dedicated salon we are.
One of many things Wallat & Droyson accuse Wilhelmine of inventing out of thin air, I might add.
And not just them, but didn't you in recent months find modern scholars arguing that FW provided abundant food, just middle-class German food instead of fancy French food? (I don't necessarily find envoys' experiences counterevidence; people often punish children by making them go hungry
I wish we had the source for Ziebura's report that AW said he was half-starved as a child (which, admittedly, was apparently a thing for royals and nobles in the 18th century, and often had more to do with servant neglect than parental intentions). I'd love to know where that comes from. I also wish the summary of his life, exaggerated arrest in Strasbourg included, had been published by someone!
Oh wow, you always take the coolest pictures! I really like the perspective of these and how so many of them have really cool things in both the foreground and the background (the last pictures as felis mentioned, also that second picture of the fountain). I think my favorite is the third to last, I just really like that perspective. (And, as felis also says, that blue sky!)
felis mentioned, also that second picture of the fountain). I think my favorite is the third to last, I just really like that perspective. (And, as felis also says, that blue sky!)as a result, FW's power is going to gradually collapse on its own
Aww. That's actually kinda cute.
He loves his soldiers, beats them liberally, and then kisses them afterward.
OMG! :D
"Eugene, who is pretty well known," and then moves onto the next person. Needs no introduction!
Hee! I think it's awesome that this guy I'd never heard of before salon, now I'm like "yeah, I guess he needs no introduction..."
Aww. That's actually kinda cute.
He loves his soldiers, beats them liberally, and then kisses them afterward.
OMG! :D
"Eugene, who is pretty well known," and then moves onto the next person. Needs no introduction!
Hee! I think it's awesome that this guy I'd never heard of before salon, now I'm like "yeah, I guess he needs no introduction..."
He loves his soldiers, beats them liberally, and then kisses them afterward.
OMG! :D
OMG indeed!
And lest we forget, the priceless Chesterfield quote from December 1730:
The King of Prussia in the oath he prepared for the Prince to swallow, among many other things, has made him swear that he will never believe in the doctrine of Predestination! A very unnecessary declaration in my mind for any body who has misfortune of being acquainted with him to make, since he himself is a living proof of free-will, for Providence can never be supposed to have pre-ordained such a creature!
Hee! I think it's awesome that this guy I'd never heard of before salon, now I'm like "yeah, I guess he needs no introduction..."
I think that's awesome too! Salon really is like being an 18th century noble/royal with your own private tutors, sans all the dysfunction. <3 salon.
OMG! :D
OMG indeed!
And lest we forget, the priceless Chesterfield quote from December 1730:
The King of Prussia in the oath he prepared for the Prince to swallow, among many other things, has made him swear that he will never believe in the doctrine of Predestination! A very unnecessary declaration in my mind for any body who has misfortune of being acquainted with him to make, since he himself is a living proof of free-will, for Providence can never be supposed to have pre-ordained such a creature!
Hee! I think it's awesome that this guy I'd never heard of before salon, now I'm like "yeah, I guess he needs no introduction..."
I think that's awesome too! Salon really is like being an 18th century noble/royal with your own private tutors, sans all the dysfunction. <3 salon.
I managed to read just a few more pages of Montesquieu, and I found the answer to one thing we'd been wondering about. Remember when Fritz says in 1731 that he should marry MT because FS is out of favor with the Emperor anyway? And we were wondering where on earth he was getting his intelligence, because FS remained solidly in favor as far as we could tell, and of course did end up marrying MT a few years later?
Montesquieu reports in 1728 that FS is out of favor because the Empress (MT's mother) gave birth to a daughter, and he couldn't resist showing his pleasure. So whatever intelligence Fritz is relying on is apparently a rumor that's been going around for a few years. (Wishful thinking?)
I would think it might be true, but the last daughter Wikipedia reports is from 1725, and it's unlikely FS would have been out of favor for *that* long without us knowing about it. A couple years I'd believe, but 6 is too many.
But if there was this rumor going around already in 1728, and then FS was in Lorraine from 1729-1731 (because he had just inherited) and thus not at court, I could see where Fritz got the idea he was out of favor in 1731.
Speaking of the 1725 baby, Wikipedia tells me this about Elisabeth Christine the mother of MT:
Three years after her marriage, court doctors prescribed large doses of liquor to make her more fertile, which gave her face a permanent blush. During her 1725 pregnancy, Charles unsuccessfully had her bedchamber decorated with erotic images of male beauty so as to make her expected baby male by stimulating her fantasy. After this, the court doctors prescribed a rich diet to increase her fertility, which made her so fat that she became unable to walk, experienced breathing problems, insomnia and dropsy and had to be lowered into her chairs by a specially constructed machine.
You were saying about not wanting to be a woman in the past,cahn? Ay ay ay. (Though the erotic images part sounds hilarious.)
Also, about the liquor stimulating fertility part, I wonder if they had noticed a correlation between pregnancies and alcohol and decided that alcohol increased your fertility rather than, say, affected your judgment.
Lol.
Montesquieu reports in 1728 that FS is out of favor because the Empress (MT's mother) gave birth to a daughter, and he couldn't resist showing his pleasure. So whatever intelligence Fritz is relying on is apparently a rumor that's been going around for a few years. (Wishful thinking?)
I would think it might be true, but the last daughter Wikipedia reports is from 1725, and it's unlikely FS would have been out of favor for *that* long without us knowing about it. A couple years I'd believe, but 6 is too many.
But if there was this rumor going around already in 1728, and then FS was in Lorraine from 1729-1731 (because he had just inherited) and thus not at court, I could see where Fritz got the idea he was out of favor in 1731.
Speaking of the 1725 baby, Wikipedia tells me this about Elisabeth Christine the mother of MT:
Three years after her marriage, court doctors prescribed large doses of liquor to make her more fertile, which gave her face a permanent blush. During her 1725 pregnancy, Charles unsuccessfully had her bedchamber decorated with erotic images of male beauty so as to make her expected baby male by stimulating her fantasy. After this, the court doctors prescribed a rich diet to increase her fertility, which made her so fat that she became unable to walk, experienced breathing problems, insomnia and dropsy and had to be lowered into her chairs by a specially constructed machine.
You were saying about not wanting to be a woman in the past,
cahn? Ay ay ay. (Though the erotic images part sounds hilarious.)Also, about the liquor stimulating fertility part, I wonder if they had noticed a correlation between pregnancies and alcohol and decided that alcohol increased your fertility rather than, say, affected your judgment.
Lol.
Three years after her marriage, court doctors prescribed large doses of liquor to make her more fertile, which gave her face a permanent blush. During her 1725 pregnancy, Charles unsuccessfully had her bedchamber decorated with erotic images of male beauty so as to make her expected baby male by stimulating her fantasy. After this, the court doctors prescribed a rich diet to increase her fertility, which made her so fat that she became unable to walk, experienced breathing problems, insomnia and dropsy and had to be lowered into her chairs by a specially constructed machine.
OMG. I feel like... a certain kind of person might actually enjoy being prescribed lots of alcohol, porn, and rich food? Well, probably not the "up to the point of having medical problems" part. But hopefully she enjoyed at least some of that?
*facepalm of not wanting to be a woman in the past*
OMG. I feel like... a certain kind of person might actually enjoy being prescribed lots of alcohol, porn, and rich food? Well, probably not the "up to the point of having medical problems" part. But hopefully she enjoyed at least some of that?
*facepalm of not wanting to be a woman in the past*
Yeah, I had the same reaction: I hope she enjoyed the fun parts, because the constant being treated as a breeding animal, the message from society that she was failing in her duty and the one thing that made her worth anything as a human being, and the resulting medical issues don't sound fun at all. Gah.
...by Matthew Dennison. A very readable and recent biography of Queen Caroline. Dennison would get the Horowski seal of approval: he spells all the German names correctly (which is a true challenge in the case of the Countess of Schaumburg-Lippe-Bückeburg), is aware that the Countess of Kielsmansegg was G1's half sister, not mistress, and while sympathetic to his main subject is able to investigate her less than stellar sides as well. (Though he thinks Wilhelmine has no idea what she's talking about with her powerhungry-as-Agrippina comparison, since she never met Caroline.) This is especially notable in the description of the increasingly toxic breakdown of the (non-)relationship between Caroline and her oldest son, but more about this in a moment.
The bibliography is impressive. (No books in German, but he's read all the English translations of Sophie's various correspondences he got his hands on, for example, as well as translated into English or French biographies.) I haven't come across an immediately noticable error save one, and because he's so good otherwise, I'm now actually confused and uncertain whether he could have been right. In every book except for this that I've read touching on the English Marriage Project, the cousin intended for Fritz (of Prussia) is named as Amelia/Emily. Dennison says it was her older sister Anne, and that Fritz of Wales and Anne as the oldest were intended for their counterparts Wilhelmine and Fritz of Prussia, also the oldest surviving kids. Like I said - I've always read that it was Amelia. I mean, even her wiki entry claims she kept a miniature of Fritz. And the famous letter Fritz was talked into writing to Caroline about vowingn to only marry her daughter I recalled as naming Amelia as well, but now I'm not sure anymore. Miiiiiiildred - could it have been Anne? (Until her marriage to yet another William of Orange, that is.)
On to the life of Caroline. Her father, the Margrave of Ansbach, already had several sons when remarrying Caroline's mother, so that marriage was seen as a love match Alas he died just a few years later, and Caroline's mother could not handle widowhood at all, hence Caroline's education being neglected to the degree that she had to teach herself how to write and read. (Dennison gives a few examples for the fact she was never able to spell well in any of the languages she spoke - German, French and English - despite being a passionate reader and lover of scholarly debates - which was the long term result.) Her mother eventually married again, another widower, which was social step up and a human step down, for her second husband Johann Georg was the older brother of August the Strong, Prince Elector of Saxony before him. Johann Georg had a mistress, Magdalen Sybille, aka Billa, whom he had no intention of giving up and insited on being treated as the true spouse. Her mother, Ursula, had been his father's mistress as well, and the question mark as to whether or not Billa could have been his half sister didn't seem to bother him. (One can see the family resemblance to August.) Billa eventually got infected by smallpox and died, Johann Georg, who had insisted on being with her, also got infected and died, and August the Strong started his ascendancy to the throne by putting about a hundred Bill-related people on trial for corruption and her mother Ursula for witchcraft (she'd been massively unpopular, so this was a cheap popularity gesture, and one of the last prominent witch trials).
What all this meant for Caroline was that she kept being shuffled between courts in her childhood: her mother's, her older half brother's at Ansbach (said older half brother, btw, eventually produced the son who'd marry Wilhelmine's and Fritz' sister Friederike, the first of the siblings to get married, and make her miserable), her stepfather's - and always in between the one of Sophie Charlotte and F1 in Berlin. The full name of Caroline's dad had been von Brandenburg-Ansbach, as the Margraves of Ansbach were an offshot of the Hohenzollern, too, so F1 was the ultimate overlord of the family, so to speak, and had offered her a home to stay. Caroline first did this at eight, but more long term and for years as a teenager, where, says Dennison, she adopted Sophie Charlotte - whom Dennison refers to by her family nickname of Figuelotte, presumably to cut down the number of Sophies and Charlottes in this book - as a life long heroine and role model.
Sidenote: this made me recall my puzzlement at Hervey claiming that Caroline told him Figuelotte had been "a silly, shallow woman", as opposed to G2 admiring her. Dennison - who quotes a lot from Hervey on other matters - never mentions this one. He does quote many positive and admiring statements from Caroline about Figuelotte from her own letters to back up his claim of Figuelotte - who was the first to encourage Caroline's hunger for books and to provide her with education and who had created the first intellectual court in Berlin - as her heroine. Now, could the letters have been for show and Caroline voiced towards Hervey her true feelings? Sure. But I suspect that Hervey, who self confessedly tuned out whenever G2 and Caroline talked about their German relations and couldn't be bothered to memorize who was related to whom, simply confused Prussian queens, and the one whom Caroline had been uncomplimentary about was in fact her sister-in-law Sophia Dorothea. (With whom she lived in Hannover close-up between marrying G2 and SD marrying FW.) After all, Caroline was writing positive things about the late Figuelotte even when she herself was Queen and the late Sophie Charlotte had probably been forgotten my many, i.e. when there was no profit to claim the connection.
Through Figuelotte, Caroline also attracted the attention of Sophie of Hannover. (BTW, Dennison chronicles Sophie's changing emotions about Caroline - first very positive - she definitely wanted her for grandson G2 - , then cooling off after the marriage, than positive again , but doesn't quote or explain the letter from Sophie to SD where she refers to Caroline as a habitual liar. I was hoping he'd explain the occasion and/or lie, but no. His explanation for the cooling off period on Sophie's part is that she was mourning for her then very recently dead daughter, had been hoping Caroline would be a second Figuelotte, which of course no one could have been, was disappointed and held it against her, with relationships improving again once Sophie had worked through her immediate grief. For Caroline's part, she seems to sincerely have attached herself to Sophie and learned a lot from her. One of Dennison's proofs for this is that after Sophie had died, Caroline started to correspond with Liselotte, and an intense correspondence it was, too, twice weekly, according to Liselotte. The two of them had never met, and all they shared was Sophie; also, Sophie's death was quickly followed by Queen Anne's, which meant Caroline became Princess of Wales and moved to Britain, so it wasn't like she didn't have other things to do, while Liselotte was an old widow without political influence (yes, she was the mother of the French Regent, but no one thought Philippe II consulted her about politics), so writing to her was most likely out of the genuine need to have a maternal confidant whom the Sophies had previously filled. With the caveat that how we present ourselves in letters isn't necessarily how we're perceived in person, Dennison adds it's also worth noting down that Liselotte - who in her long life at Versailles had experienced all types of people - quickly took to Caroline and considered her both smart and engaging.
But back to Caroline, young princess of tiny Ansbach with no big heritage (remember, product of second marriage) hanging out a lot at Berlin. She was a youthful beauty by the standards of her age - bright blond hair, white, luminous skin, a good figure which only later would get heavy, but would almost to the end be perceived as voluptous -, and an impressive conversationalist. Given the lack of a dowry, the amazing thing is that her first proposal should come from a very impressive source - young Archduke Charles, future Dad of MT. Now, this proposal and Caroline's eventual refusal became quickly the stuff of legend, and in later years it cemented her standing as a Protestant heroine - the princess who had "scorned an empire for her faith" - so it's worth pointing out, as Dennison does, that when Charles proposed, he wasn't the Emperor yet, nor was it all that likely he'd be. He was the second son of the Emperor, there was no reason to assume his older brother Joseph wouldn't produce heirs, and the best he could hope for was being King of Spain. This still made him a likely monarch to be when proposing to Caroline and as Habsburg, he was pretty much the best she could hope to get in the marriage market. She wavered at first. Figuelotte and Sophie were conspiciously neutral about the prospect, which made Dennison wonder whether Figuelotte wanted Caroline for her son FW while Sophie wanted her for grandson future G2 already, but neither prospect was voiced, so he says it's also possible that they didn't, or that Figuelotte also thought G2 was a better match but didn't say so because FW was her son. They were neither encouraging nor discouraging about the Habsburg match, and Team Vienna did sent a Jesuit to convert Caroline, but talks with Father Orban had the opposite effect on her: they likely as not made her decide that no, becoming Queen of Spain wasn't worth this, she'd rather stay a Protestant, thanks, Charles.
It was an audacious gesture for a minor German princess - as I said, looking at the logistics of the time, it wasn't likely she could have hoped for a better proposal -, but it would pay off in dividends for the rest of her life, and not just because Sophie used it to sell her son on a Caroline/future G2 match.
Speaking of the Georges: in order to make it always clear who is who, Dennison calls G1 George Louis both before and after his becoming King, and G2 George Augustus (ditto). Why was Caroline's attachment to the Protestant faith a good selling point to convince George Louis she could make a good match for his son, despite the lack of a dowry? Because at this point, the prospect of the British succession became increasingly real. Cousins William and Mary had produced no living offspring. Cousin Anne's children had all died. And the reason why the ca. 50 people between Sophie and Anne were disqualified from the succession in the eyes of Protestant England was that they were all Catholics. Now, George Louis and Sophie cunningly let young George Augustus believe this was all his idea, and he went through that romantic undercover mission where he under a pseudonym showed up at Ansbach (Caroline after Figuelotte's death had gone to her half brother's court) and fell in love at first sight. But there was a lot of stage management behind the scenes there.
As we've learned in the Schnath edited correspondence, F1 was miffed about this because he'd been toying with the idea of a Caroline/FW match (Dennison assumes, though F1 would deny it later), and if Morgenstern is to be believed, young FW was heartbroken. But Dennison thinks Caroline didn't consider him even for a microsecond, and I'm with him there. Otoh, Dennison also thinks George Augustus did know FW was interested in Caroline and that this - like the rejected Habsburg proposal - heightened her allure in his eyes. Then again, by the evidence of their remaining lives together, he was well and truly smitten. He adored her and would do so till her dying day and beyond, ordering that after his own burial the parting wood between their coffins would be lifted so that their dust could mingle.
Was Caroline felt is harder to say. Dennison doesn't think it was all power hunger and calculation that made her become the perfect wife to G2. On the one hand, he didn't share some of her most important interests - notably books (G2 liked music but not reading, and Caroline could only read when he was sleeping or otherwise not requiring her company) -, he could be petty, and his ego required constant massaging. Dennison along with Hervey thinks that while G2 clearly liked sex, his open preference for his wife over his mistress demonstrates that he mostly took a maitresse because a) it's what Kings post Louis XIV did, and b) people were noting his uxoriousness and making jokes that it was Caroline who was wearing the pants in the marriage, so taking a mistress was supposed to show he was the boss. Given such scenes as the one where when his mistress, Henrietta Howard, as lady-in-waiting was dressing his wife:
G2: *snatches the hankerchief covering Caroline's shoulders while her hair was being dressed* : Because you have an ugly neck yourself, you love to hide the Queen's!"
and the thirty pages love letters he wrote to Caroline from Hannover when not with her, his British subjects were less than convinced by this strategem of his.
On the other hand: after a childhood and youth as the poor relation with ever changing guardians, a husband who, whatever other faults he had, really is constant in his conviction that you are the best, sexiest, most wonderful woman on the planet and loves you - let's not forget, George Augustus, whose mother had disappeared into captivity when he was 11 and whose father was famouly a cold fish to almost anyone other than his mistress and illegitimate kids even before that frosty attitude would devolve into father/son warfare later, was something of a love starved teen himself - may have been someone made for Caroline in more ways than by eventually making her Queen. Among their contemporaries there was the wide spectrum of "she adores him, too" to "totally faking it for power's sake!" in how their marriage was seen from her side.
The bibliography is impressive. (No books in German, but he's read all the English translations of Sophie's various correspondences he got his hands on, for example, as well as translated into English or French biographies.) I haven't come across an immediately noticable error save one, and because he's so good otherwise, I'm now actually confused and uncertain whether he could have been right. In every book except for this that I've read touching on the English Marriage Project, the cousin intended for Fritz (of Prussia) is named as Amelia/Emily. Dennison says it was her older sister Anne, and that Fritz of Wales and Anne as the oldest were intended for their counterparts Wilhelmine and Fritz of Prussia, also the oldest surviving kids. Like I said - I've always read that it was Amelia. I mean, even her wiki entry claims she kept a miniature of Fritz. And the famous letter Fritz was talked into writing to Caroline about vowingn to only marry her daughter I recalled as naming Amelia as well, but now I'm not sure anymore. Miiiiiiildred - could it have been Anne? (Until her marriage to yet another William of Orange, that is.)
On to the life of Caroline. Her father, the Margrave of Ansbach, already had several sons when remarrying Caroline's mother, so that marriage was seen as a love match Alas he died just a few years later, and Caroline's mother could not handle widowhood at all, hence Caroline's education being neglected to the degree that she had to teach herself how to write and read. (Dennison gives a few examples for the fact she was never able to spell well in any of the languages she spoke - German, French and English - despite being a passionate reader and lover of scholarly debates - which was the long term result.) Her mother eventually married again, another widower, which was social step up and a human step down, for her second husband Johann Georg was the older brother of August the Strong, Prince Elector of Saxony before him. Johann Georg had a mistress, Magdalen Sybille, aka Billa, whom he had no intention of giving up and insited on being treated as the true spouse. Her mother, Ursula, had been his father's mistress as well, and the question mark as to whether or not Billa could have been his half sister didn't seem to bother him. (One can see the family resemblance to August.) Billa eventually got infected by smallpox and died, Johann Georg, who had insisted on being with her, also got infected and died, and August the Strong started his ascendancy to the throne by putting about a hundred Bill-related people on trial for corruption and her mother Ursula for witchcraft (she'd been massively unpopular, so this was a cheap popularity gesture, and one of the last prominent witch trials).
What all this meant for Caroline was that she kept being shuffled between courts in her childhood: her mother's, her older half brother's at Ansbach (said older half brother, btw, eventually produced the son who'd marry Wilhelmine's and Fritz' sister Friederike, the first of the siblings to get married, and make her miserable), her stepfather's - and always in between the one of Sophie Charlotte and F1 in Berlin. The full name of Caroline's dad had been von Brandenburg-Ansbach, as the Margraves of Ansbach were an offshot of the Hohenzollern, too, so F1 was the ultimate overlord of the family, so to speak, and had offered her a home to stay. Caroline first did this at eight, but more long term and for years as a teenager, where, says Dennison, she adopted Sophie Charlotte - whom Dennison refers to by her family nickname of Figuelotte, presumably to cut down the number of Sophies and Charlottes in this book - as a life long heroine and role model.
Sidenote: this made me recall my puzzlement at Hervey claiming that Caroline told him Figuelotte had been "a silly, shallow woman", as opposed to G2 admiring her. Dennison - who quotes a lot from Hervey on other matters - never mentions this one. He does quote many positive and admiring statements from Caroline about Figuelotte from her own letters to back up his claim of Figuelotte - who was the first to encourage Caroline's hunger for books and to provide her with education and who had created the first intellectual court in Berlin - as her heroine. Now, could the letters have been for show and Caroline voiced towards Hervey her true feelings? Sure. But I suspect that Hervey, who self confessedly tuned out whenever G2 and Caroline talked about their German relations and couldn't be bothered to memorize who was related to whom, simply confused Prussian queens, and the one whom Caroline had been uncomplimentary about was in fact her sister-in-law Sophia Dorothea. (With whom she lived in Hannover close-up between marrying G2 and SD marrying FW.) After all, Caroline was writing positive things about the late Figuelotte even when she herself was Queen and the late Sophie Charlotte had probably been forgotten my many, i.e. when there was no profit to claim the connection.
Through Figuelotte, Caroline also attracted the attention of Sophie of Hannover. (BTW, Dennison chronicles Sophie's changing emotions about Caroline - first very positive - she definitely wanted her for grandson G2 - , then cooling off after the marriage, than positive again , but doesn't quote or explain the letter from Sophie to SD where she refers to Caroline as a habitual liar. I was hoping he'd explain the occasion and/or lie, but no. His explanation for the cooling off period on Sophie's part is that she was mourning for her then very recently dead daughter, had been hoping Caroline would be a second Figuelotte, which of course no one could have been, was disappointed and held it against her, with relationships improving again once Sophie had worked through her immediate grief. For Caroline's part, she seems to sincerely have attached herself to Sophie and learned a lot from her. One of Dennison's proofs for this is that after Sophie had died, Caroline started to correspond with Liselotte, and an intense correspondence it was, too, twice weekly, according to Liselotte. The two of them had never met, and all they shared was Sophie; also, Sophie's death was quickly followed by Queen Anne's, which meant Caroline became Princess of Wales and moved to Britain, so it wasn't like she didn't have other things to do, while Liselotte was an old widow without political influence (yes, she was the mother of the French Regent, but no one thought Philippe II consulted her about politics), so writing to her was most likely out of the genuine need to have a maternal confidant whom the Sophies had previously filled. With the caveat that how we present ourselves in letters isn't necessarily how we're perceived in person, Dennison adds it's also worth noting down that Liselotte - who in her long life at Versailles had experienced all types of people - quickly took to Caroline and considered her both smart and engaging.
But back to Caroline, young princess of tiny Ansbach with no big heritage (remember, product of second marriage) hanging out a lot at Berlin. She was a youthful beauty by the standards of her age - bright blond hair, white, luminous skin, a good figure which only later would get heavy, but would almost to the end be perceived as voluptous -, and an impressive conversationalist. Given the lack of a dowry, the amazing thing is that her first proposal should come from a very impressive source - young Archduke Charles, future Dad of MT. Now, this proposal and Caroline's eventual refusal became quickly the stuff of legend, and in later years it cemented her standing as a Protestant heroine - the princess who had "scorned an empire for her faith" - so it's worth pointing out, as Dennison does, that when Charles proposed, he wasn't the Emperor yet, nor was it all that likely he'd be. He was the second son of the Emperor, there was no reason to assume his older brother Joseph wouldn't produce heirs, and the best he could hope for was being King of Spain. This still made him a likely monarch to be when proposing to Caroline and as Habsburg, he was pretty much the best she could hope to get in the marriage market. She wavered at first. Figuelotte and Sophie were conspiciously neutral about the prospect, which made Dennison wonder whether Figuelotte wanted Caroline for her son FW while Sophie wanted her for grandson future G2 already, but neither prospect was voiced, so he says it's also possible that they didn't, or that Figuelotte also thought G2 was a better match but didn't say so because FW was her son. They were neither encouraging nor discouraging about the Habsburg match, and Team Vienna did sent a Jesuit to convert Caroline, but talks with Father Orban had the opposite effect on her: they likely as not made her decide that no, becoming Queen of Spain wasn't worth this, she'd rather stay a Protestant, thanks, Charles.
It was an audacious gesture for a minor German princess - as I said, looking at the logistics of the time, it wasn't likely she could have hoped for a better proposal -, but it would pay off in dividends for the rest of her life, and not just because Sophie used it to sell her son on a Caroline/future G2 match.
Speaking of the Georges: in order to make it always clear who is who, Dennison calls G1 George Louis both before and after his becoming King, and G2 George Augustus (ditto). Why was Caroline's attachment to the Protestant faith a good selling point to convince George Louis she could make a good match for his son, despite the lack of a dowry? Because at this point, the prospect of the British succession became increasingly real. Cousins William and Mary had produced no living offspring. Cousin Anne's children had all died. And the reason why the ca. 50 people between Sophie and Anne were disqualified from the succession in the eyes of Protestant England was that they were all Catholics. Now, George Louis and Sophie cunningly let young George Augustus believe this was all his idea, and he went through that romantic undercover mission where he under a pseudonym showed up at Ansbach (Caroline after Figuelotte's death had gone to her half brother's court) and fell in love at first sight. But there was a lot of stage management behind the scenes there.
As we've learned in the Schnath edited correspondence, F1 was miffed about this because he'd been toying with the idea of a Caroline/FW match (Dennison assumes, though F1 would deny it later), and if Morgenstern is to be believed, young FW was heartbroken. But Dennison thinks Caroline didn't consider him even for a microsecond, and I'm with him there. Otoh, Dennison also thinks George Augustus did know FW was interested in Caroline and that this - like the rejected Habsburg proposal - heightened her allure in his eyes. Then again, by the evidence of their remaining lives together, he was well and truly smitten. He adored her and would do so till her dying day and beyond, ordering that after his own burial the parting wood between their coffins would be lifted so that their dust could mingle.
Was Caroline felt is harder to say. Dennison doesn't think it was all power hunger and calculation that made her become the perfect wife to G2. On the one hand, he didn't share some of her most important interests - notably books (G2 liked music but not reading, and Caroline could only read when he was sleeping or otherwise not requiring her company) -, he could be petty, and his ego required constant massaging. Dennison along with Hervey thinks that while G2 clearly liked sex, his open preference for his wife over his mistress demonstrates that he mostly took a maitresse because a) it's what Kings post Louis XIV did, and b) people were noting his uxoriousness and making jokes that it was Caroline who was wearing the pants in the marriage, so taking a mistress was supposed to show he was the boss. Given such scenes as the one where when his mistress, Henrietta Howard, as lady-in-waiting was dressing his wife:
G2: *snatches the hankerchief covering Caroline's shoulders while her hair was being dressed* : Because you have an ugly neck yourself, you love to hide the Queen's!"
and the thirty pages love letters he wrote to Caroline from Hannover when not with her, his British subjects were less than convinced by this strategem of his.
On the other hand: after a childhood and youth as the poor relation with ever changing guardians, a husband who, whatever other faults he had, really is constant in his conviction that you are the best, sexiest, most wonderful woman on the planet and loves you - let's not forget, George Augustus, whose mother had disappeared into captivity when he was 11 and whose father was famouly a cold fish to almost anyone other than his mistress and illegitimate kids even before that frosty attitude would devolve into father/son warfare later, was something of a love starved teen himself - may have been someone made for Caroline in more ways than by eventually making her Queen. Among their contemporaries there was the wide spectrum of "she adores him, too" to "totally faking it for power's sake!" in how their marriage was seen from her side.
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-27 11:39 pm (UTC)(link)
And the famous letter Fritz was talked into writing to Caroline about vowingn to only marry her daughter I recalled as naming Amelia as well, but now I'm not sure anymore. Miiiiiiildred - could it have been Anne? (Until her marriage to yet another William of Orange, that is.)
I'm only two paragraphs into your write-up because I had to stop here and do some detective work. Because whaaaaat?
I recall Amelia being named in that letter too! Yep, Mitchell--admittedly reporting decades later, but you wouldn't expect him to get it wrong--names Amelia when he has Fritz saying he shouldn't have written that letter.
Oncken definitely quotes from primary sources naming Amelia. One is Hotham, and one--I think, my German isn't quite up to reading as quickly as I'm being forced to right now, I'd get it if I slowed down--Reichenbach. That's in addition to Oncken's summaries of primary sources naming Amelia.
Koser also names Amelia. Once in a direct quote from a letter from Seckendorff to Eugene, which is in Förster. Yep, there it is, right there in Förster, July 1733, when the English decided they wanted the marriage after all, just as Fritz was getting married to EC: "que le Roy d'Angleterre donnera la main au marriage de Son Altesse Royale avec la Princess Amelie."
Also, Wilhelmine certainly thinks it's Amelia, and I'd think she would know! Even writing 10-20 years later, she's not likely to forget the double marriage project. [ETA: Yep, she's another source for the famous letter. She quotes from a followup letter at length, and reports Fritz writing, "I have already pledged my word of honor to your majesty never to marry any other but the princess Amelia your daughter."]
So I'm going to go with it being Amelia and resume reading your write-up.
I didn't know this, though! According to Wikipedia:
In 1725, a potential marriage contract between Anne and King Louis XV of France was considered.
1725, for those of you who need chronology reminders, is the year the seven-year-old Spanish princess who was supposed to marry Louis was sent back in favor of getting him married to someone who could start making babies sooner, and the Spanish sent the French princess back in return. The fact that a royal marriage was considered between France and England is also related to the part where England and France were allies between 1716 and 1731, unusually so.
Maybe Dennison is confusing the marriage to Louis XV that didn't happen with the marriage to Fritz that didn't happen?
I'm only two paragraphs into your write-up because I had to stop here and do some detective work. Because whaaaaat?
I recall Amelia being named in that letter too! Yep, Mitchell--admittedly reporting decades later, but you wouldn't expect him to get it wrong--names Amelia when he has Fritz saying he shouldn't have written that letter.
Oncken definitely quotes from primary sources naming Amelia. One is Hotham, and one--I think, my German isn't quite up to reading as quickly as I'm being forced to right now, I'd get it if I slowed down--Reichenbach. That's in addition to Oncken's summaries of primary sources naming Amelia.
Koser also names Amelia. Once in a direct quote from a letter from Seckendorff to Eugene, which is in Förster. Yep, there it is, right there in Förster, July 1733, when the English decided they wanted the marriage after all, just as Fritz was getting married to EC: "que le Roy d'Angleterre donnera la main au marriage de Son Altesse Royale avec la Princess Amelie."
Also, Wilhelmine certainly thinks it's Amelia, and I'd think she would know! Even writing 10-20 years later, she's not likely to forget the double marriage project. [ETA: Yep, she's another source for the famous letter. She quotes from a followup letter at length, and reports Fritz writing, "I have already pledged my word of honor to your majesty never to marry any other but the princess Amelia your daughter."]
So I'm going to go with it being Amelia and resume reading your write-up.
I didn't know this, though! According to Wikipedia:
In 1725, a potential marriage contract between Anne and King Louis XV of France was considered.
1725, for those of you who need chronology reminders, is the year the seven-year-old Spanish princess who was supposed to marry Louis was sent back in favor of getting him married to someone who could start making babies sooner, and the Spanish sent the French princess back in return. The fact that a royal marriage was considered between France and England is also related to the part where England and France were allies between 1716 and 1731, unusually so.
Maybe Dennison is confusing the marriage to Louis XV that didn't happen with the marriage to Fritz that didn't happen?
Edited 2021-07-27 23:42 (UTC)
Maybe, and thank you for reassuring me I wasn't misremembering everything! I also assume he has it from the Anne biography listed in his bibliography. However, his bibliography also includes Wilhelmine's memoirs, so even if he thought Wilhelmine had gotten it wrong, he had to know there was an alternative narration out there.
BTW, more anecdotes/details I forgot to include in my write up:
a) As we know from the Lady Mary bios, Caroline's support of Lady Mary in the inocculation campaign was instrumental. Reminder: Lady Mary returned from Turkey having learned about inocculation against smallpox and having had her son inocculated there. In Britain, she also inocculated her daughter (who'd still been a newborn baby in Turkey, hence too young, which caused a huge controversy and many attacks until Caroline (herself a smallpox survivor, like Mary) decided to have her own children inocculated as well. (Other than Anne, who had just survived smallpox, too, and had a scarred face to show for it.) What we hadn't known before: Caroline was cautious enough - like MT - to test this out on other people first, in her case on ten prisoners volunteering against the promise of a pardon. (Nine survived, but the one who died had been sick already.) Then she had her kids inocculated. (Including Fritz of Wales - a doctor travelled to Hannover to repeat the procedure on him.)
b) Voltaire dedicated the Henriad to Caroline, which tells you something about her reputation as an art patroness at this point. His dedication says that as Henri IV was protected by an English Queen - Elizabeth I - he could think of no one more suitable than the future Queen of England to protect his epic.
c) Caroline wasn't jealous of Henrietta Howard on account of G2 - she knew she had the upper hand there - but she did resent that Henrietta Howard became a sought after patroness as well and was prefered by both Jonathan Swift and Alexander Pope.
(c1 - I had forgotten, but the book reminded me again - the Liliputians from "Gullivers Travels" would have been understood by Swifts contemporaries as a satire on all the small German principalities, especially Hannnover.)
d) Sarah Churchill, the Duchess of Marlborough and Anne's ex-Favourite had been in disgrace along with her husband until the Hannover succession, so Caroline thought it was a good idea to appoint her as one of the ladies of the bedchamber. (Marlborough = popular hero) As part of her "win over the Brits" campaign. However, Sarah being Sarah, she was incurably snobbish and refered to Caroline as a "little German princess" and "Madam Ansbach". Caroline then nicknamed the Churchills "the Imperial family".
e) Like I said, Caroline milked the propaganda value of her rejection of Charles' proposal for the rest of her life. Never more entertainingly (to me) than when the Archbishop of Canterbury after her coronation thought he needed to explain CoE theology to her some more (despite Caroline having converted along with G2 years earlier), and Caroline retorted: "Does he really believe I do not understand Protestantism, I, who rejected an Empire for it?"
BTW, more anecdotes/details I forgot to include in my write up:
a) As we know from the Lady Mary bios, Caroline's support of Lady Mary in the inocculation campaign was instrumental. Reminder: Lady Mary returned from Turkey having learned about inocculation against smallpox and having had her son inocculated there. In Britain, she also inocculated her daughter (who'd still been a newborn baby in Turkey, hence too young, which caused a huge controversy and many attacks until Caroline (herself a smallpox survivor, like Mary) decided to have her own children inocculated as well. (Other than Anne, who had just survived smallpox, too, and had a scarred face to show for it.) What we hadn't known before: Caroline was cautious enough - like MT - to test this out on other people first, in her case on ten prisoners volunteering against the promise of a pardon. (Nine survived, but the one who died had been sick already.) Then she had her kids inocculated. (Including Fritz of Wales - a doctor travelled to Hannover to repeat the procedure on him.)
b) Voltaire dedicated the Henriad to Caroline, which tells you something about her reputation as an art patroness at this point. His dedication says that as Henri IV was protected by an English Queen - Elizabeth I - he could think of no one more suitable than the future Queen of England to protect his epic.
c) Caroline wasn't jealous of Henrietta Howard on account of G2 - she knew she had the upper hand there - but she did resent that Henrietta Howard became a sought after patroness as well and was prefered by both Jonathan Swift and Alexander Pope.
(c1 - I had forgotten, but the book reminded me again - the Liliputians from "Gullivers Travels" would have been understood by Swifts contemporaries as a satire on all the small German principalities, especially Hannnover.)
d) Sarah Churchill, the Duchess of Marlborough and Anne's ex-Favourite had been in disgrace along with her husband until the Hannover succession, so Caroline thought it was a good idea to appoint her as one of the ladies of the bedchamber. (Marlborough = popular hero) As part of her "win over the Brits" campaign. However, Sarah being Sarah, she was incurably snobbish and refered to Caroline as a "little German princess" and "Madam Ansbach". Caroline then nicknamed the Churchills "the Imperial family".
e) Like I said, Caroline milked the propaganda value of her rejection of Charles' proposal for the rest of her life. Never more entertainingly (to me) than when the Archbishop of Canterbury after her coronation thought he needed to explain CoE theology to her some more (despite Caroline having converted along with G2 years earlier), and Caroline retorted: "Does he really believe I do not understand Protestantism, I, who rejected an Empire for it?"
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-29 12:43 am (UTC)(link)
I haven't found time to reply yet, but the book sounds great, and I've ordered it on your recommendation. And I do plan to reply! (German is coming along well, Zweig is perfect.)
That's really good to know - Zweig today and the whole concept of biographie romancee isn't everyone's cup of tea anymore, I know that, but I hoped you'd like him, since I do love most of his books, and besides, he writes beautiful German. As you're learning the language, getting exposed to a true master in it can't be wrong. :)
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-31 01:56 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd been meaning to say, I'll be needing some more biographies romancées of people I'm interested in, when I finish this one! Is there one of Catherine the Great? There needs to be one of Catherine the Great!
There needs to be, but if there is a good one, I haven't read it yet. The Catherine biographies I read for Yuletide last year never rose above avarage. That said, I haven't read the Robert Massie one, which is supposed to be good, and also I seem to recall Simon Montefiore wrote one specifically about her and Potemkin which also got good reviews.
Re: biographies romancées, I can only repeat my reccommendation for Zweig's Fouché.
Re: biographies romancées, I can only repeat my reccommendation for Zweig's Fouché.
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-01 11:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Have downloaded the two Catherine Kindle samples and will check them out, thank you!
Fouché: I've had the Kindle sample since you recommended it, but the thing is...German is enough of a struggle for me still, that I have to be excited enough about the content to keep picking up the book and repeatedly engaging in the struggle, hour after hour, day after day. If you can get me excited to learn more about Fouché, I'll give the book a try! But right now I have no feelings about him either way, and Wikipedia is not exactly helping.
Fouché: I've had the Kindle sample since you recommended it, but the thing is...German is enough of a struggle for me still, that I have to be excited enough about the content to keep picking up the book and repeatedly engaging in the struggle, hour after hour, day after day. If you can get me excited to learn more about Fouché, I'll give the book a try! But right now I have no feelings about him either way, and Wikipedia is not exactly helping.
However, his bibliography also includes Wilhelmine's memoirs, so even if he thought Wilhelmine had gotten it wrong, he had to know there was an alternative narration out there.
Since he is an English speaker, is it possible that he had the bowdlerized version of the memoirs and that bit was taken out? (I don't have time to look right now.)
Caroline wasn't jealous of Henrietta Howard on account of G2 - she knew she had the upper hand there - but she did resent that Henrietta Howard became a sought after patroness as well and was prefered by both Jonathan Swift and Alexander Pope.
Hee, that's awesome.
(c1 - I had forgotten, but the book reminded me again - the Liliputians from "Gullivers Travels" would have been understood by Swifts contemporaries as a satire on all the small German principalities, especially Hannnover.)
Oh, I think I remember learning about this in Brit Lit class! Of course, at the time I had no historical context for it, so it didn't really register.
Never more entertainingly (to me) than when the Archbishop of Canterbury after her coronation thought he needed to explain CoE theology to her some more (despite Caroline having converted along with G2 years earlier), and Caroline retorted: "Does he really believe I do not understand Protestantism, I, who rejected an Empire for it?"
LOL Caroline, way to milk it :D
Since he is an English speaker, is it possible that he had the bowdlerized version of the memoirs and that bit was taken out? (I don't have time to look right now.)
Caroline wasn't jealous of Henrietta Howard on account of G2 - she knew she had the upper hand there - but she did resent that Henrietta Howard became a sought after patroness as well and was prefered by both Jonathan Swift and Alexander Pope.
Hee, that's awesome.
(c1 - I had forgotten, but the book reminded me again - the Liliputians from "Gullivers Travels" would have been understood by Swifts contemporaries as a satire on all the small German principalities, especially Hannnover.)
Oh, I think I remember learning about this in Brit Lit class! Of course, at the time I had no historical context for it, so it didn't really register.
Never more entertainingly (to me) than when the Archbishop of Canterbury after her coronation thought he needed to explain CoE theology to her some more (despite Caroline having converted along with G2 years earlier), and Caroline retorted: "Does he really believe I do not understand Protestantism, I, who rejected an Empire for it?"
LOL Caroline, way to milk it :D
Bowlderized version: I don't have the time to check it, either, but I think the identity of Fritz' envisioned bride-to-be made the cut, since anything to do with English matters was of interest to an English translation readership.
Caroline and Henrietta Howard (later Lady Suffolk) (& G2): the entire relationship is its own kind of odd. Like I said, Henrietta mainly wanted a job that would protect her against her husband. And to be fair, Caroline did that whenever Charles Howard tried to re-insert himself in his wife's life (with an eye to the money she now earned). And when George Augustus became Prince of Wales, some nobles thought cultivating his mistress was a good idea (which also was financially rewarding and got you lots of presents and invites), since usually the mistress has more influence than the wife - only not in this case. (Sir Robert Walpole, otoh, from the get go had the right instinct, cultivated Caroline instead and became PM.) On the downside, G2 had two main subjects, German genealogy and military tales, especially but not only his glorious six months as Young Hannover Brave. And droned on about them since he couldn't think of anything else to talk about with his mistress, other than sex. And made no secret of prefering his wife. As soon as Charles Howard finally had died, Henrietta declared she had enough, retired as mistress and married a nice guy from the gentry. (She was over 40 at this point and half deaf, but still pretty and clever, and had accumulated a nice funding, so that worked out well.) Caroline, who had treasured the time G2 spent with his mistress as her prefered reading hours, was most put off and wrote a tart letter Lady Suffolk (as she was then) going on about how at their age, Henrietta should be past behaving like the heroine of a novel. But Lady Suffolk ignored this.
Caroline had another reason than her suddenly cut short leisure time, which was that she knew G2 wasn't in love with Henrietta Howard, whereas now that he was sans mistress there was the chance he'd come across someone he actually would care for. And sure enough, on his next visit to Hannover, he did, one Countess Wallmoden, who even got pregnant and had a kid by him and became his next official mistress. Whom he described en detail in his letters to Caroline (well enough she could paint the lady's portrait, as she snarked to Hervey), because Caroline was his best friend in addition to his wife and of course he had to tell her about his exciting new mistress, there were no secrets between them. That was G2 for you.
(He did care about Wallmoden more than about Suffolk and after Caroline's death had her come from Hannover to Britain, but she never was a true rival in terms of his affections, either. Like I mentioned in the write up, G2 said about Caroline long after her death he never met a woman fit to buckle her shoe, and he arranged for his funeral so that their dust would mingle because he wanted to be with Caroline always.)
Caroline and Henrietta Howard (later Lady Suffolk) (& G2): the entire relationship is its own kind of odd. Like I said, Henrietta mainly wanted a job that would protect her against her husband. And to be fair, Caroline did that whenever Charles Howard tried to re-insert himself in his wife's life (with an eye to the money she now earned). And when George Augustus became Prince of Wales, some nobles thought cultivating his mistress was a good idea (which also was financially rewarding and got you lots of presents and invites), since usually the mistress has more influence than the wife - only not in this case. (Sir Robert Walpole, otoh, from the get go had the right instinct, cultivated Caroline instead and became PM.) On the downside, G2 had two main subjects, German genealogy and military tales, especially but not only his glorious six months as Young Hannover Brave. And droned on about them since he couldn't think of anything else to talk about with his mistress, other than sex. And made no secret of prefering his wife. As soon as Charles Howard finally had died, Henrietta declared she had enough, retired as mistress and married a nice guy from the gentry. (She was over 40 at this point and half deaf, but still pretty and clever, and had accumulated a nice funding, so that worked out well.) Caroline, who had treasured the time G2 spent with his mistress as her prefered reading hours, was most put off and wrote a tart letter Lady Suffolk (as she was then) going on about how at their age, Henrietta should be past behaving like the heroine of a novel. But Lady Suffolk ignored this.
Caroline had another reason than her suddenly cut short leisure time, which was that she knew G2 wasn't in love with Henrietta Howard, whereas now that he was sans mistress there was the chance he'd come across someone he actually would care for. And sure enough, on his next visit to Hannover, he did, one Countess Wallmoden, who even got pregnant and had a kid by him and became his next official mistress. Whom he described en detail in his letters to Caroline (well enough she could paint the lady's portrait, as she snarked to Hervey), because Caroline was his best friend in addition to his wife and of course he had to tell her about his exciting new mistress, there were no secrets between them. That was G2 for you.
(He did care about Wallmoden more than about Suffolk and after Caroline's death had her come from Hannover to Britain, but she never was a true rival in terms of his affections, either. Like I mentioned in the write up, G2 said about Caroline long after her death he never met a woman fit to buckle her shoe, and he arranged for his funeral so that their dust would mingle because he wanted to be with Caroline always.)
Caroline, who had treasured the time G2 spent with his mistress as her prefered reading hours, was most put off and wrote a tart letter Lady Suffolk (as she was then) going on about how at their age, Henrietta should be past behaving like the heroine of a novel. But Lady Suffolk ignored this.
This is fantastically hilarious and rather makes me like Caroline even more.
(There's a joke about physicists that goes a little like that -- the punchline being that the physicist likes to have both a wife and a mistress because the wife thinks the physicist is with the mistress and the mistress thinks the physicist is with the wife, and meanwhile the physicist can sneak off and do physics...)
Whom he described en detail in his letters to Caroline (well enough she could paint the lady's portrait, as she snarked to Hervey), because Caroline was his best friend in addition to his wife and of course he had to tell her about his exciting new mistress, there were no secrets between them. That was G2 for you.
OMG! G2, on the other hand... *facepalm* On the other hand, I suppose Caroline's practical side was probably at least a little reassured by knowing G2 thought of her as a best friend. I guess. And at least she had more time to read :P (That being said, it is hilarious. G2!)
This is fantastically hilarious and rather makes me like Caroline even more.
(There's a joke about physicists that goes a little like that -- the punchline being that the physicist likes to have both a wife and a mistress because the wife thinks the physicist is with the mistress and the mistress thinks the physicist is with the wife, and meanwhile the physicist can sneak off and do physics...)
Whom he described en detail in his letters to Caroline (well enough she could paint the lady's portrait, as she snarked to Hervey), because Caroline was his best friend in addition to his wife and of course he had to tell her about his exciting new mistress, there were no secrets between them. That was G2 for you.
OMG! G2, on the other hand... *facepalm* On the other hand, I suppose Caroline's practical side was probably at least a little reassured by knowing G2 thought of her as a best friend. I guess. And at least she had more time to read :P (That being said, it is hilarious. G2!)
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-31 02:07 pm (UTC)(link)
(There's a joke about physicists that goes a little like that -- the punchline being that the physicist likes to have both a wife and a mistress because the wife thinks the physicist is with the mistress and the mistress thinks the physicist is with the wife, and meanwhile the physicist can sneak off and do physics...)
Lol, I've heard this joke about engineers, and I've always loved it. The architect prefers a wife for the stability she represents, the artist a mistress for the passion, and the engineer a wife and a mistress so he can go to the office and get some work done.
And at least she had more time to read :P
Win-win-win for everyone except the person who's currently having to listen to G2 talk. :P
Lol, I've heard this joke about engineers, and I've always loved it. The architect prefers a wife for the stability she represents, the artist a mistress for the passion, and the engineer a wife and a mistress so he can go to the office and get some work done.
And at least she had more time to read :P
Win-win-win for everyone except the person who's currently having to listen to G2 talk. :P
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-31 01:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Bowlderized version: I don't have the time to check it, either, but I think the identity of Fritz' envisioned bride-to-be made the cut, since anything to do with English matters was of interest to an English translation readership.
Indeed, it did. It's Amelia all the way!
On the downside, G2 had two main subjects, German genealogy and military tales, especially but not only his glorious six months as Young Hannover Brave.
LOLOL forever. I mean. My 10 weeks as a member of the Classics faculty at UCLA is emphasized in any summary of my career all out of proportion to its duration. :P
Indeed, it did. It's Amelia all the way!
On the downside, G2 had two main subjects, German genealogy and military tales, especially but not only his glorious six months as Young Hannover Brave.
LOLOL forever. I mean. My 10 weeks as a member of the Classics faculty at UCLA is emphasized in any summary of my career all out of proportion to its duration. :P
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-31 01:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe, and thank you for reassuring me I wasn't misremembering everything
I was reassuring myself, as well! I knew all the modern bios have it that way, but I had go to chase down primary sources to make sure it wasn't another case of Robert Keith.
(c1 - I had forgotten, but the book reminded me again - the Liliputians from "Gullivers Travels" would have been understood by Swifts contemporaries as a satire on all the small German principalities, especially Hannnover.)
Ahhh, thank you for this! *If* I ever learned this, it was before I had any context on the HRE or small German principalities, so I promptly forgot it.
Caroline then nicknamed the Churchills "the Imperial family".
Lol, yeah, I can see it.
I was reassuring myself, as well! I knew all the modern bios have it that way, but I had go to chase down primary sources to make sure it wasn't another case of Robert Keith.
(c1 - I had forgotten, but the book reminded me again - the Liliputians from "Gullivers Travels" would have been understood by Swifts contemporaries as a satire on all the small German principalities, especially Hannnover.)
Ahhh, thank you for this! *If* I ever learned this, it was before I had any context on the HRE or small German principalities, so I promptly forgot it.
Caroline then nicknamed the Churchills "the Imperial family".
Lol, yeah, I can see it.
Dennison would get the Horowski seal of approval: he spells all the German names correctly (which is a true challenge in the case of the Countess of Schaumburg-Lippe-Bückeburg)
Lol, I laughed! (I certainly wouldn't be able to manage it :P )
and the question mark as to whether or not Billa could have been his half sister didn't seem to bother him. (One can see the family resemblance to August.)
Hee! Indeed.
With the caveat that how we present ourselves in letters isn't necessarily how we're perceived in person, Dennison adds it's also worth noting down that Liselotte - who in her long life at Versailles had experienced all types of people - quickly took to Caroline and considered her both smart and engaging.
Huh, that's neat, I'm glad they had that correspondence. (And ha, yes to letters vs. in person, though I suppose it's probably not so easy to fake being smart even over letters :P )
It was an audacious gesture for a minor German princess - as I said, looking at the logistics of the time, it wasn't likely she could have hoped for a better proposal -, but it would pay off in dividends for the rest of her life
This is fascinating!
Now, George Louis and Sophie cunningly let young George Augustus believe this was all his idea, and he went through that romantic undercover mission where he under a pseudonym showed up at Ansbach (Caroline after Figuelotte's death had gone to her half brother's court) and fell in love at first sight. But there was a lot of stage management behind the scenes there.
Like MT! Clearly the takeaway here is that managed marriages work rather better than forced marriages :P
But Dennison thinks Caroline didn't consider him even for a microsecond, and I'm with him there.
But what's not to love! I mean besides EVERYTHING
may have been someone made for Caroline in more ways than by eventually making her Queen.
Yeah... I mean, I don't think it's mutually exclusive for Caroline to be a) thinking in a practical way about George's strengths as a husband (and maybe being annoyed by his weaknesses) and maybe not being particularly head-over-heels for him, and b) being genuinely fond of him.
*Usual horror at the idea of living in the past, ESPECIALLY as a woman*
Lol, I laughed! (I certainly wouldn't be able to manage it :P )
and the question mark as to whether or not Billa could have been his half sister didn't seem to bother him. (One can see the family resemblance to August.)
Hee! Indeed.
With the caveat that how we present ourselves in letters isn't necessarily how we're perceived in person, Dennison adds it's also worth noting down that Liselotte - who in her long life at Versailles had experienced all types of people - quickly took to Caroline and considered her both smart and engaging.
Huh, that's neat, I'm glad they had that correspondence. (And ha, yes to letters vs. in person, though I suppose it's probably not so easy to fake being smart even over letters :P )
It was an audacious gesture for a minor German princess - as I said, looking at the logistics of the time, it wasn't likely she could have hoped for a better proposal -, but it would pay off in dividends for the rest of her life
This is fascinating!
Now, George Louis and Sophie cunningly let young George Augustus believe this was all his idea, and he went through that romantic undercover mission where he under a pseudonym showed up at Ansbach (Caroline after Figuelotte's death had gone to her half brother's court) and fell in love at first sight. But there was a lot of stage management behind the scenes there.
Like MT! Clearly the takeaway here is that managed marriages work rather better than forced marriages :P
But Dennison thinks Caroline didn't consider him even for a microsecond, and I'm with him there.
But what's not to love! I mean besides EVERYTHING
may have been someone made for Caroline in more ways than by eventually making her Queen.
Yeah... I mean, I don't think it's mutually exclusive for Caroline to be a) thinking in a practical way about George's strengths as a husband (and maybe being annoyed by his weaknesses) and maybe not being particularly head-over-heels for him, and b) being genuinely fond of him.
*Usual horror at the idea of living in the past, ESPECIALLY as a woman*
Lol, I laughed! (I certainly wouldn't be able to manage it :P )
None of her British contemporaries could, so she shows up as the Comtesse de Picbourg, and historians took a while till they figured out this was the same lady who in Hannover chronicles is the Countess of Schaumburg-Lippe-Bückeburg. Incidentally, she was the one who critiqued the English ladies' posture as crouching and almost fearful instead of standing straight and, well, "Brust raus", whereupon the indignant Brits said an English lady is a lady due to titles and manners, not by displaying her bosom.
None of her British contemporaries could, so she shows up as the Comtesse de Picbourg, and historians took a while till they figured out this was the same lady who in Hannover chronicles is the Countess of Schaumburg-Lippe-Bückeburg. Incidentally, she was the one who critiqued the English ladies' posture as crouching and almost fearful instead of standing straight and, well, "Brust raus", whereupon the indignant Brits said an English lady is a lady due to titles and manners, not by displaying her bosom.
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-31 01:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah... I mean, I don't think it's mutually exclusive for Caroline to be a) thinking in a practical way about George's strengths as a husband (and maybe being annoyed by his weaknesses) and maybe not being particularly head-over-heels for him, and b) being genuinely fond of him.
Yeah, that's plausible! Something similar may have been the case for Philip V's doting wives who exercised a fair (but debatable) amount of power.
*Usual horror at the idea of living in the past, ESPECIALLY as a woman*
In the famous words of G2 when Fritz proposed visiting: "NO NO NO DO NOT WANT."
Yeah, that's plausible! Something similar may have been the case for Philip V's doting wives who exercised a fair (but debatable) amount of power.
*Usual horror at the idea of living in the past, ESPECIALLY as a woman*
In the famous words of G2 when Fritz proposed visiting: "NO NO NO DO NOT WANT."
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-31 01:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I enjoyed this, and as I said, have the book on order! (When I will find time to read it is another question, but at least we can look things up in it at need.)
Her mother, Ursula, had been his father's mistress as well, and the question mark as to whether or not Billa could have been his half sister didn't seem to bother him. (One can see the family resemblance to August.)
Uh, yes.
But I suspect that Hervey, who self confessedly tuned out whenever G2 and Caroline talked about their German relations and couldn't be bothered to memorize who was related to whom, simply confused Prussian queens, and the one whom Caroline had been uncomplimentary about was in fact her sister-in-law Sophia Dorothea.
Ahhh, yes, this makes sense! I mean, the Sophias are hard to keep straight! I keep meaning to draw out a genealogy forcahn. I'll see if I find time this weekend.
Given the lack of a dowry, the amazing thing is that her first proposal should come from a very impressive source - young Archduke Charles, future Dad of MT.
Do you know where his motivations fell on the personal - political continuum? This proposal isn't something I had known about (or at least remembered).
ordering that after his own burial the parting wood between their coffins would be lifted so that their dust could mingle.
I had forgotten this, but it made me "aww" the first time and it made me "aww" again this time.
G2: *snatches the hankerchief covering Caroline's shoulders while her hair was being dressed* : Because you have an ugly neck yourself, you love to hide the Queen's!"
and the thirty pages love letters he wrote to Caroline from Hannover when not with her, his British subjects were less than convinced by this strategem of his.
Ahahaha, yeah, I can see that. :D
was something of a love starved teen himself - may have been someone made for Caroline in more ways than by eventually making her Queen.
That does make sense, yes.
Her mother, Ursula, had been his father's mistress as well, and the question mark as to whether or not Billa could have been his half sister didn't seem to bother him. (One can see the family resemblance to August.)
Uh, yes.
But I suspect that Hervey, who self confessedly tuned out whenever G2 and Caroline talked about their German relations and couldn't be bothered to memorize who was related to whom, simply confused Prussian queens, and the one whom Caroline had been uncomplimentary about was in fact her sister-in-law Sophia Dorothea.
Ahhh, yes, this makes sense! I mean, the Sophias are hard to keep straight! I keep meaning to draw out a genealogy for
cahn. I'll see if I find time this weekend.Given the lack of a dowry, the amazing thing is that her first proposal should come from a very impressive source - young Archduke Charles, future Dad of MT.
Do you know where his motivations fell on the personal - political continuum? This proposal isn't something I had known about (or at least remembered).
ordering that after his own burial the parting wood between their coffins would be lifted so that their dust could mingle.
I had forgotten this, but it made me "aww" the first time and it made me "aww" again this time.
G2: *snatches the hankerchief covering Caroline's shoulders while her hair was being dressed* : Because you have an ugly neck yourself, you love to hide the Queen's!"
and the thirty pages love letters he wrote to Caroline from Hannover when not with her, his British subjects were less than convinced by this strategem of his.
Ahahaha, yeah, I can see that. :D
was something of a love starved teen himself - may have been someone made for Caroline in more ways than by eventually making her Queen.
That does make sense, yes.
Do you know where his motivations fell on the personal - political continuum? This proposal isn't something I had known about (or at least remembered).
Well, at first it seems to have been political, given that Leipniz, none other, first suggests the idea of such a match when Charles is all of thirteen years old (and Caroline is fifteen) in 1698) to Benedicta of Brunswick-Lüneburg, a lady who was both cousin to Figuelotte and the aunt of Charles. This then remains super hush hush and Caroline has no idea until the idea gets revived again five years later when Charles is en route to claim Spain (well, as in he doesn't, but you know, HE DID NOT KNOW THAT!), and Caroline receives a breathless letter she's to visit her maternal aunt the Duchess of Weissenfels AT ONCE. Which she does, and where she meets young Charles who is now eighteen and as presentable as can be expected. They talk for five hours, he really likes her and tells his aide-de-camp people back at home should go ahead and negotiate for the match, he's proposing, while continuing his travels.
Given whom Charles would end up marrying - original EC - and that she was also a Protestant princess (who did agree to being converted), I would say that the Habsburgswere ready to freshen up the gene pool did want a princess from one of the Protestant principalities because they expected trouble from Louis re: Spain, the French had a nasty habit of teaming up with some of the German princes against the HRE rulership, and it probably seemed a good idea to strengthen ties there ahead of time. Caroline might not have had a large dowry, but she had good connections due to both Brandenburg/Prussia and Hannover (due to Figuelotte sort of adopting her) and Saxony, in the sense that her late mother had been miserably married there to the previous Elector, granted, but August the Strong did have some sympathy for his late sister-in-law and had granted her a good pension for her remaining years, and sent Caroline some nice presents now and then. Added to which was Caroline being a beauty, with parents who both had produced various children (important, that), and a good reputation, all of which are good factors, and who knows, young Charles might really have been smitten. But I do think strengthening ties between the imperial house and the Protestant principalities was the basic idea.
G2 being uxurious: it's slightly mentioned in Sophie's letters but can be missed there - when Caroline got smallpox, George Augustus remained at her side and caught it as well. This is how her stepfather had died (only her stepfather had caught it from his mistress, not wife), which must have been on everyone's mind, so it was both a courageous and devoted thing of future G2 to do.
I think I quoted the famous lampoon about their marriage which was sung shortly after their coronation in London when reviewing Hervey's memoirs (because of course Hervey quotes it): "You may strutt, dapper George, but 'twill all be vain;/We know 'tis Caroline, not you, that reign."
Well, at first it seems to have been political, given that Leipniz, none other, first suggests the idea of such a match when Charles is all of thirteen years old (and Caroline is fifteen) in 1698) to Benedicta of Brunswick-Lüneburg, a lady who was both cousin to Figuelotte and the aunt of Charles. This then remains super hush hush and Caroline has no idea until the idea gets revived again five years later when Charles is en route to claim Spain (well, as in he doesn't, but you know, HE DID NOT KNOW THAT!), and Caroline receives a breathless letter she's to visit her maternal aunt the Duchess of Weissenfels AT ONCE. Which she does, and where she meets young Charles who is now eighteen and as presentable as can be expected. They talk for five hours, he really likes her and tells his aide-de-camp people back at home should go ahead and negotiate for the match, he's proposing, while continuing his travels.
Given whom Charles would end up marrying - original EC - and that she was also a Protestant princess (who did agree to being converted), I would say that the Habsburgs
G2 being uxurious: it's slightly mentioned in Sophie's letters but can be missed there - when Caroline got smallpox, George Augustus remained at her side and caught it as well. This is how her stepfather had died (only her stepfather had caught it from his mistress, not wife), which must have been on everyone's mind, so it was both a courageous and devoted thing of future G2 to do.
I think I quoted the famous lampoon about their marriage which was sung shortly after their coronation in London when reviewing Hervey's memoirs (because of course Hervey quotes it): "You may strutt, dapper George, but 'twill all be vain;/We know 'tis Caroline, not you, that reign."
I would say that the Habsburgs were ready to freshen up the gene pool
Lol, I laughed, because it's a good idea! But I see what you're saying about the ties between the imperial house and Protestant principalities.
so it was both a courageous and devoted thing of future G2 to do.
Okay, future G2 is not my fave, but that is rather sweet.
(because of course Hervey quotes it)
HA, of course he does!
Lol, I laughed, because it's a good idea! But I see what you're saying about the ties between the imperial house and Protestant principalities.
so it was both a courageous and devoted thing of future G2 to do.
Okay, future G2 is not my fave, but that is rather sweet.
(because of course Hervey quotes it)
HA, of course he does!
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach - I: Cinderella
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-03 01:03 pm (UTC)(link)
As promised, a hastily scribbled visual for keeping the Sophias straight.
I tried to limit it to people we've talked about in salon, though Liselotte's dad snuck in so I could add her. (Worse, to fit them neatly on the page, I had to make him look younger than Sophia of Hanover, when he was actually older--much so. As we know, she was the baby.)
I debated whether to include Sophia Dorothea, sister of Fritz, who married one of the Schwedt cousins, but we haven't talked about her much, and I figured another SD would just confuse things.
I tried to limit it to people we've talked about in salon, though Liselotte's dad snuck in so I could add her. (Worse, to fit them neatly on the page, I had to make him look younger than Sophia of Hanover, when he was actually older--much so. As we know, she was the baby.)
I debated whether to include Sophia Dorothea, sister of Fritz, who married one of the Schwedt cousins, but we haven't talked about her much, and I figured another SD would just confuse things.
Thank you! <3 I feel like this combined with selenak's writeup of the Winter Queen book (...I know it had another title about Mary Queen of Scots or something, but, like, Winter Queen is such a better title) is getting everything slightly more straight for me! (There are STILL too many Sophias, though :P )
(Heh, "Sophia" was actually one of the main contenders for what we would have named E, only it happened to be the most popular name THAT year as well!)
(Heh, "Sophia" was actually one of the main contenders for what we would have named E, only it happened to be the most popular name THAT year as well!)
When the British parliament produced the Act of Settlement (which made it law that any successor to Anne had to be Sophie or a PROTESTANT descendant of Sophie), Caroline, who definitely had the brains of the marriage, inmmediately started an Anglisation project, learning English, cultivating the increasing number of British visitors now showing up at Hannover, reading up on English literature, and on English history. (She became an early member of Tudor fandom, which the poets cultivating her later noted, pleasing her by comparing her to Elizabeth, not more recent Queens like Anne or Mary II.) Among the Brits showing up at Hannover were the Howards. Charles Howard was a louse, and a physically abusive husband, and his wife, Henrietta, had come here with one aim in mind: get a job from the future British monarchs that would get her away from her husband. Her original idea had been becoming lady in waiting to Caroline, which she did, but she also ended up as future G2's first mistress.
Caroline: ?
Sophie (I'm not making this up, she really said this): Look at it this way: It will improve his English.
George Augustus, like FW, had a hell of a time getting his father to permit him to join team Eugene & Marlborough on campain. Unlike FW, this was because George Louis - who'd done ample soldiering in his own father's life time - didn't want his disliked son to distinguish himself. Like FW, eventually permission was granted, and George Augustus got to go soldiering for six months, which included the Battle of Oudenaard and future G2 distinguishing himself by personal bravery - a horse was shot under him and he still went on fighting. This got him praise from Marlborough and some mention from British poets who called him "Young Hannover Brave", a description he would relish for the rest of his life.
Anne: *still not impressed and refusing to allow any Hannover cousins to set foot on British shore while she's alive*
Dennison: I'm with Anne here, not with Sophie. It wasn't personal - Anne knew that any successor in residence would esssentially become a second, alternative court, and she already had to deal with one in Paris courtesy of her father and half brother.
Sophie: Then it wasn't personal on my part, either. You may think it was must wounded vanity that made me roll my eyes at Anne, Dennison, but I've been ruling Hannover whenever my husband did his regular trips to Venice, I know something about governing, and I tell you, if Grandson had been able to take his seat in the House of Lords as Duke of Cambridge, it would have allowed him to learn about Britain and English politics ahead of time, which could only have been good for the country in the long term.
Caroline & motherhood: Dennison points out that in addition to the usual royal set up where a nurse and governess are in charge of the day to day caring of the kids, Caroline got smallpox when Fritz of Wales as six months, and then, barely recoverd, she got pneumonia. During this time, she wasn't allowed any contact with the baby at all for obvious reasons. So there was a disruption of this particular relationship from the get go. Also, while paying lip duties to believing in the highest calling for a woman being a wife and mother, she even according to an admiring and sympathetic observer had a perference for "settling points of controversional divinity" (Caroline was very much interested in philosophical and religious debates and later would be involved in a big Leipniz vs Newton and Clarke clash) over child play. She made sure her children would be educated from the get go, unlike her (lessons in Latin, German, French, Italian and the works ofancient historians were on the schedule), but as for day to day visits even when she was healthy, well...
Quoth Dennison: Caroline's apparant failure to react either swiftly or effectively to the infant Frederick developing rickets suggests negligence, but should be read within the context of contemporary parenting habits and widespread medical ignorance (...) In the event, credit for Frederick's recovery mostly belongs to Sophia, who, by directing that "Fritzchen" spend time outdoors in the gardens at Herrenhausen, exposed him to the light and fresh air which effected a cure around the time of his third birthday. In her lietters, Sophia intimated that her contribution extended to supervising Fritzchen's wetnurse and feeding regimen: first smallpox then pneunomonia had separated Caroline from her baby. (...) Frederick did benefit from the doting ministrations of his still energetic great-grandmother.
(Who took him along on her garden walks, she didn't just tell the nurse to take him outside. You might recall she does mention him a lot in her letters to SD.) All this might still have been recoverable within an 18th century context, but then when "Fritzchen" is seven, the family moves to Britain, except him.
On George Louis' instructions, Frederick stayed behind in Hannover with hish great-uncle, Ernest Augustus. His grandfather had decided that Frederick would serve as the family's permanent representative in the electorate. He was seven years old. Only in January, Sophia had written to Liselotte of his excitement that Christmas. 'I have no doubt that your Prince Fritzchen is absolutely delighted with the Christchild, because I still remember so well how I loved it,' Liselotte replied. To enforce a permanent separation from his parents an dsiblings on so young a child was an act of terrible cruelty, from which neither prince nor parents would recover.
Early on, Caroline kept asking British visitors to the continent who'd been in Hannover to tell her how her son was doing, and to be fair, future G2 made at least two attempts to persuade his father to let "Fritzchen" join the the rest of the clan in said early years. But at some point, at the very latest when his brother William was born, they emotionally cut him off in their minds and hearts, and for good. Dennison points out that both Caroline and her oldest son were passionate letter writers, child!Fritz of Wales was definitely able to write letters to other relations (we have some of his letters to his sister Anne, for example) and yet no letter from Caroline during the 14 years the absence would eventually last exists. This could be because the correspondence was lost, or destroyed when mother and son became enemies, but even in the case of the only three years of Hervey/Fritz of Wales relationship, who were in the same country and the same town most of the time, some letters survive the subsequent breakdown, so Dennison speculates that Caroline may have never written, either because she could cope better this way or because there was something performative in her motherhood to "Fritzchen" from the get go, acting how she thought she ought to feel (a doting mother, asking questions about her child) rather than how she actually felt (not having been bonded with her oldest due to unfortunate circumstance).
Relations between George Louis and George Augustus had never been warm - Dennison thinks that maybe because of George Augustus' physical resemblance to the unfortunate Sophia Dorothea the Older -, though like FW with AW, George Louis could be a doting parent - to his illegitimate children with Melusine von der Schulenburg. Whereas with his two legitimate ones, he was cool, and after everyone moved to Britain, things between him and his son got steadily worse, which very much affected Caroline.
It has to be praised here that Dennison doesn't repeat old English clichés about G1. Who like grandson Fritz didn't like being undressed and dressed by his courtiers, so he changed this ceremonial, cut the office of the "Groom of the stool" entirely, and kept as his personal servants his two Turkish valets Mohammed and Mustafa. (Remember, his sister Sophie Charlotte, Figuelotte, also had brought two Turkish servants with her to Berlin from Hannover, and they were the last people she talked to on her death bed - "Adieu Ali, adieu Hassan".)
Brits: What kind of foreign weirdo keeps Turks around him? Who does he think he is, a sultan? No talking to Turks on our part.
Mohammed & Mustafa: Have it your way. We're not shopping in London, then, we're still ordering G1's wardrobe in Hannover.
G1: Which is how I like it. Mustafa, I'm ennobling you. You're allowed to choose your title.
Mustafa: Count von Königstreu.
Unlike G1, who was too set in his ways, Caroline and George Augustus cultivated the English which was very much Caroline's idea and strategem. She only kept two German ladies-in-waiting and otherwise appointed only British nobility. She and future G2 with and without their younger children were seen regularly taking strolls through St. James Park by the population. (Such a wholesome family, unlike the last Stuarts!). She and George Augustus learned English country dances and danced them at balls to the amazement of the nobility and delight of the population. Caroline became a patron of poets and artists. That all this enthusiasm for all things British was on G2's part not entirely sincere would only be revealed once he got on the throne, but for now, it was a very effective way to become popular and seen as the opposite of Dear Old Dad with his German mistress and Turkish valets and German officials and regular trips to Hannover. Oh, and this also happened:
1715 Jacobite rising: *happens*
George Augustus: Sounds like a job for me! I'm Young Hannover Brave, remember!
George Louis: I do remember. You're staying in London. Argyll, Supreme Command of my army is yours. Deal with the Jacobites.
George Augustus: I hate you.
Things escalate to the point where, when Caroline gives birth to another son (not yet Cumberland, but another William who will die as a baby just a few months later), we get the infamous quarrel at Westminster Abbey because George Louis changes the godfather George Augustus wanted, and George Augustus and the unwanted new godfather almost come to blows. This ends with future G2 and Caroline first locked up and then kicked out of the palace, with access to their children forbidden to them. Caroline is told by G1 she can stay but only if she takes his part. Caroline replies that while she loves her children, she loves her husband more and will go with him.
(Dennison points this may have been true but was also the only thing she could do in the long term, as G2 would not have forgiven her siding with Dad against him, and he was the one she lived with and who would survive G1.)
This treatment of Caroline has the effect that Europe, which might otherwise have sided with the patriarch, now sides with the young couple, because cutting off Caroline from her children just because she's a loyal wife looks terrible. It also does lasting damage. Caroline's relationships to her first three daughters won't ever be as close again as with the three children born after this event who grow up entirely with her. And she really did try to keep the contact, always sending little notes to the girls (which are preserved) and wearing G1 down to permitting weekly visits. She and George Augustus settled down in Leicester House, which was owned by Elizabeth Stuart the Winter Queen in the last months of her life when she had finally returned to England to die, and hence was owned by the Hannover clan. Caroline gives birth to three more children, two girls and William the future butcher of Cumberland. Who will spend seven years as the de facto only son, petted and adored, and will resent the ultimate arrival of his older brother only slightly less than Caroline and George Augustus.
Caroline: ?
Sophie (I'm not making this up, she really said this): Look at it this way: It will improve his English.
George Augustus, like FW, had a hell of a time getting his father to permit him to join team Eugene & Marlborough on campain. Unlike FW, this was because George Louis - who'd done ample soldiering in his own father's life time - didn't want his disliked son to distinguish himself. Like FW, eventually permission was granted, and George Augustus got to go soldiering for six months, which included the Battle of Oudenaard and future G2 distinguishing himself by personal bravery - a horse was shot under him and he still went on fighting. This got him praise from Marlborough and some mention from British poets who called him "Young Hannover Brave", a description he would relish for the rest of his life.
Anne: *still not impressed and refusing to allow any Hannover cousins to set foot on British shore while she's alive*
Dennison: I'm with Anne here, not with Sophie. It wasn't personal - Anne knew that any successor in residence would esssentially become a second, alternative court, and she already had to deal with one in Paris courtesy of her father and half brother.
Sophie: Then it wasn't personal on my part, either. You may think it was must wounded vanity that made me roll my eyes at Anne, Dennison, but I've been ruling Hannover whenever my husband did his regular trips to Venice, I know something about governing, and I tell you, if Grandson had been able to take his seat in the House of Lords as Duke of Cambridge, it would have allowed him to learn about Britain and English politics ahead of time, which could only have been good for the country in the long term.
Caroline & motherhood: Dennison points out that in addition to the usual royal set up where a nurse and governess are in charge of the day to day caring of the kids, Caroline got smallpox when Fritz of Wales as six months, and then, barely recoverd, she got pneumonia. During this time, she wasn't allowed any contact with the baby at all for obvious reasons. So there was a disruption of this particular relationship from the get go. Also, while paying lip duties to believing in the highest calling for a woman being a wife and mother, she even according to an admiring and sympathetic observer had a perference for "settling points of controversional divinity" (Caroline was very much interested in philosophical and religious debates and later would be involved in a big Leipniz vs Newton and Clarke clash) over child play. She made sure her children would be educated from the get go, unlike her (lessons in Latin, German, French, Italian and the works ofancient historians were on the schedule), but as for day to day visits even when she was healthy, well...
Quoth Dennison: Caroline's apparant failure to react either swiftly or effectively to the infant Frederick developing rickets suggests negligence, but should be read within the context of contemporary parenting habits and widespread medical ignorance (...) In the event, credit for Frederick's recovery mostly belongs to Sophia, who, by directing that "Fritzchen" spend time outdoors in the gardens at Herrenhausen, exposed him to the light and fresh air which effected a cure around the time of his third birthday. In her lietters, Sophia intimated that her contribution extended to supervising Fritzchen's wetnurse and feeding regimen: first smallpox then pneunomonia had separated Caroline from her baby. (...) Frederick did benefit from the doting ministrations of his still energetic great-grandmother.
(Who took him along on her garden walks, she didn't just tell the nurse to take him outside. You might recall she does mention him a lot in her letters to SD.) All this might still have been recoverable within an 18th century context, but then when "Fritzchen" is seven, the family moves to Britain, except him.
On George Louis' instructions, Frederick stayed behind in Hannover with hish great-uncle, Ernest Augustus. His grandfather had decided that Frederick would serve as the family's permanent representative in the electorate. He was seven years old. Only in January, Sophia had written to Liselotte of his excitement that Christmas. 'I have no doubt that your Prince Fritzchen is absolutely delighted with the Christchild, because I still remember so well how I loved it,' Liselotte replied. To enforce a permanent separation from his parents an dsiblings on so young a child was an act of terrible cruelty, from which neither prince nor parents would recover.
Early on, Caroline kept asking British visitors to the continent who'd been in Hannover to tell her how her son was doing, and to be fair, future G2 made at least two attempts to persuade his father to let "Fritzchen" join the the rest of the clan in said early years. But at some point, at the very latest when his brother William was born, they emotionally cut him off in their minds and hearts, and for good. Dennison points out that both Caroline and her oldest son were passionate letter writers, child!Fritz of Wales was definitely able to write letters to other relations (we have some of his letters to his sister Anne, for example) and yet no letter from Caroline during the 14 years the absence would eventually last exists. This could be because the correspondence was lost, or destroyed when mother and son became enemies, but even in the case of the only three years of Hervey/Fritz of Wales relationship, who were in the same country and the same town most of the time, some letters survive the subsequent breakdown, so Dennison speculates that Caroline may have never written, either because she could cope better this way or because there was something performative in her motherhood to "Fritzchen" from the get go, acting how she thought she ought to feel (a doting mother, asking questions about her child) rather than how she actually felt (not having been bonded with her oldest due to unfortunate circumstance).
Relations between George Louis and George Augustus had never been warm - Dennison thinks that maybe because of George Augustus' physical resemblance to the unfortunate Sophia Dorothea the Older -, though like FW with AW, George Louis could be a doting parent - to his illegitimate children with Melusine von der Schulenburg. Whereas with his two legitimate ones, he was cool, and after everyone moved to Britain, things between him and his son got steadily worse, which very much affected Caroline.
It has to be praised here that Dennison doesn't repeat old English clichés about G1. Who like grandson Fritz didn't like being undressed and dressed by his courtiers, so he changed this ceremonial, cut the office of the "Groom of the stool" entirely, and kept as his personal servants his two Turkish valets Mohammed and Mustafa. (Remember, his sister Sophie Charlotte, Figuelotte, also had brought two Turkish servants with her to Berlin from Hannover, and they were the last people she talked to on her death bed - "Adieu Ali, adieu Hassan".)
Brits: What kind of foreign weirdo keeps Turks around him? Who does he think he is, a sultan? No talking to Turks on our part.
Mohammed & Mustafa: Have it your way. We're not shopping in London, then, we're still ordering G1's wardrobe in Hannover.
G1: Which is how I like it. Mustafa, I'm ennobling you. You're allowed to choose your title.
Mustafa: Count von Königstreu.
Unlike G1, who was too set in his ways, Caroline and George Augustus cultivated the English which was very much Caroline's idea and strategem. She only kept two German ladies-in-waiting and otherwise appointed only British nobility. She and future G2 with and without their younger children were seen regularly taking strolls through St. James Park by the population. (Such a wholesome family, unlike the last Stuarts!). She and George Augustus learned English country dances and danced them at balls to the amazement of the nobility and delight of the population. Caroline became a patron of poets and artists. That all this enthusiasm for all things British was on G2's part not entirely sincere would only be revealed once he got on the throne, but for now, it was a very effective way to become popular and seen as the opposite of Dear Old Dad with his German mistress and Turkish valets and German officials and regular trips to Hannover. Oh, and this also happened:
1715 Jacobite rising: *happens*
George Augustus: Sounds like a job for me! I'm Young Hannover Brave, remember!
George Louis: I do remember. You're staying in London. Argyll, Supreme Command of my army is yours. Deal with the Jacobites.
George Augustus: I hate you.
Things escalate to the point where, when Caroline gives birth to another son (not yet Cumberland, but another William who will die as a baby just a few months later), we get the infamous quarrel at Westminster Abbey because George Louis changes the godfather George Augustus wanted, and George Augustus and the unwanted new godfather almost come to blows. This ends with future G2 and Caroline first locked up and then kicked out of the palace, with access to their children forbidden to them. Caroline is told by G1 she can stay but only if she takes his part. Caroline replies that while she loves her children, she loves her husband more and will go with him.
(Dennison points this may have been true but was also the only thing she could do in the long term, as G2 would not have forgiven her siding with Dad against him, and he was the one she lived with and who would survive G1.)
This treatment of Caroline has the effect that Europe, which might otherwise have sided with the patriarch, now sides with the young couple, because cutting off Caroline from her children just because she's a loyal wife looks terrible. It also does lasting damage. Caroline's relationships to her first three daughters won't ever be as close again as with the three children born after this event who grow up entirely with her. And she really did try to keep the contact, always sending little notes to the girls (which are preserved) and wearing G1 down to permitting weekly visits. She and George Augustus settled down in Leicester House, which was owned by Elizabeth Stuart the Winter Queen in the last months of her life when she had finally returned to England to die, and hence was owned by the Hannover clan. Caroline gives birth to three more children, two girls and William the future butcher of Cumberland. Who will spend seven years as the de facto only son, petted and adored, and will resent the ultimate arrival of his older brother only slightly less than Caroline and George Augustus.
Caroline: ?
Sophie (I'm not making this up, she really said this): Look at it this way: It will improve his English.
HA.
So there was a disruption of this particular relationship from the get go. Also, while paying lip duties to believing in the highest calling for a woman being a wife and mother, she even according to an admiring and sympathetic observer had a perference for "settling points of controversional divinity" (Caroline was very much interested in philosophical and religious debates and later would be involved in a big Leipniz vs Newton and Clarke clash) over child play.
This is where Caroline started getting really interesting for me. Not least because I've had some experience in
a) not bonding with one of my children right after birth, and if I had then been separated from that child for years on end, I... well, I made a lot of fun of Caroline back when you were telling us about Lord Hervey's memoirs, but now I can really viscerally see how that could so easily have happened
b) My church culture does a lot of that "highest calling being a wife and mother" thing (fortunately my actual family never did, they were much more of the "yeah, get educated and get a career" variety) and I do feel that being a mother is important to my identity, and at the same time I am, um, not so into child play. To be fair, I know very few mothers who actually enjoy doing quite as much of it as their kids like to :P -- but anyway, so, yeah, suddenly Dennison (and you) are humanizing her a lot more for me.
(Dennison points this may have been true but was also the only thing she could do in the long term, as G2 would not have forgiven her siding with Dad against him, and he was the one she lived with and who would survive G1.)
Maaaan. Caroline. I am so into (well, reading about) women who do the "right" thing (or at least the dramatic thing!) which also happens to be the coldly practical thing, and Caroline seems like she is the master of it! (But also, ugh!)
Sophie (I'm not making this up, she really said this): Look at it this way: It will improve his English.
HA.
So there was a disruption of this particular relationship from the get go. Also, while paying lip duties to believing in the highest calling for a woman being a wife and mother, she even according to an admiring and sympathetic observer had a perference for "settling points of controversional divinity" (Caroline was very much interested in philosophical and religious debates and later would be involved in a big Leipniz vs Newton and Clarke clash) over child play.
This is where Caroline started getting really interesting for me. Not least because I've had some experience in
a) not bonding with one of my children right after birth, and if I had then been separated from that child for years on end, I... well, I made a lot of fun of Caroline back when you were telling us about Lord Hervey's memoirs, but now I can really viscerally see how that could so easily have happened
b) My church culture does a lot of that "highest calling being a wife and mother" thing (fortunately my actual family never did, they were much more of the "yeah, get educated and get a career" variety) and I do feel that being a mother is important to my identity, and at the same time I am, um, not so into child play. To be fair, I know very few mothers who actually enjoy doing quite as much of it as their kids like to :P -- but anyway, so, yeah, suddenly Dennison (and you) are humanizing her a lot more for me.
(Dennison points this may have been true but was also the only thing she could do in the long term, as G2 would not have forgiven her siding with Dad against him, and he was the one she lived with and who would survive G1.)
Maaaan. Caroline. I am so into (well, reading about) women who do the "right" thing (or at least the dramatic thing!) which also happens to be the coldly practical thing, and Caroline seems like she is the master of it! (But also, ugh!)
I can really viscerally see how that could so easily have happened
While I never had kids, same here. Like I said, maybe it still could have been avoided if Fritzchen had grown up with his parents (well, at least in a royal family kind of way), but this initial experience plus so many years separately plus the difficulty that most designated successors in monarchies tend to be at odds with the ruling monarch really wrecked any chance of closeness, and that was before the arguments started.
BTW, Dennison also is very clear on the fact that Caroline convincing herself that Fritz of Wales was impotent really had no factual or even gossipy basis other than her wishful thinking, because she wanted beloved younger son William to become King so badly.
FW: I, on the other hand, would have been full of joy if Wretched Son had ever deigned to give me a grandchild, so I really don't understand where all the criticism comes from!
I am so into (well, reading about) women who do the "right" thing (or at least the dramatic thing!) which also happens to be the coldly practical thing, and Caroline seems like she is the master of it!
She was, and figuring out the degree in which many of her actions were calculation vs genuine feeling (it usually according to Dennison was a mixture of both) was most frustrating for her opponents. In the case of the big G1 vs G2 showdown, her involvement really made all the difference in public opinion. In an age where fathers are by default right (unless they kill their sons a la Peter the Great or kill their sons' lovers a la FW), most people would probably have sided with G1 otherwise. After all, he was King AND the head of the House, so his changing the identity of the godfather would have been seen as his prerogative, and G2 carrying the argument about it well into the baptism and quarelling with the new godfather as terrible manners.
But since none of this had been Caroline's fault, forbidding her to see her children came across as petty, cruel and monstreous, and suddenly everyone was on team Caroline and George Augustus. (Liselotte wrote to her half sister that George Louis had been a cold fish in Germany already, but it seemed the English air had turned him into stone.)
Another example of where it's impossible to tell whether Caroline's motivation were more strategy or mere genuine feeling was the big Leipniz vs Newton (and Jeremy Clarke) clash. Leipniz, due to his years of association with Sophie and Sophie Charlotte, and his having been patronized by House Hannover since decades, and given the fact that he'd been of personal service to Caroline (he'd written her refusal letter to Archduke Charles for her - you bet that Caroline did NOT want this particular letter to laying her open to ridicule for her spelling, handwriting etc.), had a claim on her loyalty, on the one hand. On the other, siding with a German scientist against God of British Science Newton would have gone against all she was hoping to achieve in winning the Brits over and would have inevitably resulted in her being accused of siding with him only due to German bias. Otoh - she might also have found Newton simply more convincing. In any event, she wrote diplomatic letters with Leipniz but sided with Newton; her diplomacy must have been good enough for Leipniz not to feel himself betrayed, though, as he continued to be nice about her in his letters to other people.
While I never had kids, same here. Like I said, maybe it still could have been avoided if Fritzchen had grown up with his parents (well, at least in a royal family kind of way), but this initial experience plus so many years separately plus the difficulty that most designated successors in monarchies tend to be at odds with the ruling monarch really wrecked any chance of closeness, and that was before the arguments started.
BTW, Dennison also is very clear on the fact that Caroline convincing herself that Fritz of Wales was impotent really had no factual or even gossipy basis other than her wishful thinking, because she wanted beloved younger son William to become King so badly.
FW: I, on the other hand, would have been full of joy if Wretched Son had ever deigned to give me a grandchild, so I really don't understand where all the criticism comes from!
I am so into (well, reading about) women who do the "right" thing (or at least the dramatic thing!) which also happens to be the coldly practical thing, and Caroline seems like she is the master of it!
She was, and figuring out the degree in which many of her actions were calculation vs genuine feeling (it usually according to Dennison was a mixture of both) was most frustrating for her opponents. In the case of the big G1 vs G2 showdown, her involvement really made all the difference in public opinion. In an age where fathers are by default right (unless they kill their sons a la Peter the Great or kill their sons' lovers a la FW), most people would probably have sided with G1 otherwise. After all, he was King AND the head of the House, so his changing the identity of the godfather would have been seen as his prerogative, and G2 carrying the argument about it well into the baptism and quarelling with the new godfather as terrible manners.
But since none of this had been Caroline's fault, forbidding her to see her children came across as petty, cruel and monstreous, and suddenly everyone was on team Caroline and George Augustus. (Liselotte wrote to her half sister that George Louis had been a cold fish in Germany already, but it seemed the English air had turned him into stone.)
Another example of where it's impossible to tell whether Caroline's motivation were more strategy or mere genuine feeling was the big Leipniz vs Newton (and Jeremy Clarke) clash. Leipniz, due to his years of association with Sophie and Sophie Charlotte, and his having been patronized by House Hannover since decades, and given the fact that he'd been of personal service to Caroline (he'd written her refusal letter to Archduke Charles for her - you bet that Caroline did NOT want this particular letter to laying her open to ridicule for her spelling, handwriting etc.), had a claim on her loyalty, on the one hand. On the other, siding with a German scientist against God of British Science Newton would have gone against all she was hoping to achieve in winning the Brits over and would have inevitably resulted in her being accused of siding with him only due to German bias. Otoh - she might also have found Newton simply more convincing. In any event, she wrote diplomatic letters with Leipniz but sided with Newton; her diplomacy must have been good enough for Leipniz not to feel himself betrayed, though, as he continued to be nice about her in his letters to other people.
FW: I, on the other hand, would have been full of joy if Wretched Son had ever deigned to give me a grandchild, so I really don't understand where all the criticism comes from!
HA.
(it usually according to Dennison was a mixture of both)
Yeah, that sounds very plausible, and I think that's very cool.
In any event, she wrote diplomatic letters with Leipniz but sided with Newton; her diplomacy must have been good enough for Leipniz not to feel himself betrayed, though, as he continued to be nice about her in his letters to other people.
Oh, that's actually really neat -- I feel like the icky bit about the whole Leipniz/Newton thing was how everyone was kind of their worst selves about it all, and it's rather nice to find someone who wasn't.
HA.
(it usually according to Dennison was a mixture of both)
Yeah, that sounds very plausible, and I think that's very cool.
In any event, she wrote diplomatic letters with Leipniz but sided with Newton; her diplomacy must have been good enough for Leipniz not to feel himself betrayed, though, as he continued to be nice about her in his letters to other people.
Oh, that's actually really neat -- I feel like the icky bit about the whole Leipniz/Newton thing was how everyone was kind of their worst selves about it all, and it's rather nice to find someone who wasn't.
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach- II: People Manager
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-31 01:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Sophie (I'm not making this up, she really said this): Look at it this way: It will improve his English.
Lol!
if Grandson had been able to take his seat in the House of Lords as Duke of Cambridge, it would have allowed him to learn about Britain and English politics ahead of time, which could only have been good for the country in the long term
Sophie has a point!
Caroline's apparant failure to react either swiftly or effectively to the infant Frederick developing rickets suggests negligence, but should be read within the context of contemporary parenting habits
This reminds me of SD being the last to notice that Wilhelmine was being beaten by her governess.
exposed him to the light and fresh air which effected a cure around the time of his third birthday.
Yay vitamin D!
G1: Which is how I like it. Mustafa, I'm ennobling you. You're allowed to choose your title.
Mustafa: Count von Königstreu.
cahn, is your German up to that?
George Augustus: Sounds like a job for me! I'm Young Hannover Brave, remember!
George Louis: I do remember. You're staying in London.
Lol, Hanover dysfunction is fun.
Man, I'm remembering Classical dysfunction now, when one royal father-son pair was so close that one time the son came back from hunting carrying his spear, and he ran into his father, and they sat down and chatted together, and then the father was like, "See! I trust my son so much that I let him into my presence fully armed!" ...Which says a lot about the cultural norms of the time. (This is Antigonus and Demetrius, anecdote from Plutarch, for those of you to whom that means anything. We'll do Classics salon someday. :D)
It also does lasting damage. Caroline's relationships to her first three daughters won't ever be as close again as with the three children born after this event who grow up entirely with her.
Oof. So how long did this situation go on?
Lol!
if Grandson had been able to take his seat in the House of Lords as Duke of Cambridge, it would have allowed him to learn about Britain and English politics ahead of time, which could only have been good for the country in the long term
Sophie has a point!
Caroline's apparant failure to react either swiftly or effectively to the infant Frederick developing rickets suggests negligence, but should be read within the context of contemporary parenting habits
This reminds me of SD being the last to notice that Wilhelmine was being beaten by her governess.
exposed him to the light and fresh air which effected a cure around the time of his third birthday.
Yay vitamin D!
G1: Which is how I like it. Mustafa, I'm ennobling you. You're allowed to choose your title.
Mustafa: Count von Königstreu.
cahn, is your German up to that?George Augustus: Sounds like a job for me! I'm Young Hannover Brave, remember!
George Louis: I do remember. You're staying in London.
Lol, Hanover dysfunction is fun.
Man, I'm remembering Classical dysfunction now, when one royal father-son pair was so close that one time the son came back from hunting carrying his spear, and he ran into his father, and they sat down and chatted together, and then the father was like, "See! I trust my son so much that I let him into my presence fully armed!" ...Which says a lot about the cultural norms of the time. (This is Antigonus and Demetrius, anecdote from Plutarch, for those of you to whom that means anything. We'll do Classics salon someday. :D)
It also does lasting damage. Caroline's relationships to her first three daughters won't ever be as close again as with the three children born after this event who grow up entirely with her.
Oof. So how long did this situation go on?
So how long did this situation go on?
Caroline gives birth to the William whose birth (and early death) triggered the crisis: November 1717.
January 1718: G1 starts legal proceedings, enquiring from the judges whether "the Education and Care of the Prsons of HIs Majesty's Grandchildren, and ordering the Place of their Abode, & Appointing their Governors, Governesses and other Instructors, Attendants and servant, and the Care and Approbation of their Marriages when grown up, belong of right to his Majesty, as King of this Realm, or not?" Unsurprisngly, a majority of judges decides damn well they do.
(Prussian war tribunals apparantly are made of sterner stuff when it comes to refusing monarchs the judgment they want to have.)
At first, Caroline's fave the Countess (Schaumburg-Lippe-)Bückeburg who is the girls' governess is allowed to visit her each evening to report on the kids. And then G1 fires her as governess (she was Caroline's bff) and replaces her by Lady Portland.
(G2 and Caroline hated Lady Portland accordingly and fired her as soon as G1 had breathed his last, but since the girls once grown up kept corresponding with her, one can say they grew attached and she evidently wasn't an evil cliché.)
(Lady Mary who met the fired Lady Portland shortly after the firing gave a witty though heartless description of her in her letters since Lady P had taken the firing to heart: "Her funereal appearance represented very finely an Egyptian Mummy embroider'd with hieroglyphics.")
On a similar note, G2 unsurprisingly fired the bulk of his father's servants and attendants after G1's death. Otoh, Fritz of Wales once finally arriving in London hired most of those who were still there and out of a job (remember, it took over a year between the death and Fritz of Wales' kidnapping, err, invite) into his personal service. Given he'd likely known many of them from Hannover, that makes sense and wasn't yet an anti-Dad gesture.)
Summer of 1720: G1 returns to Hannover. For this occasion, he allows the three princesses to rejoin their parents.
Anyway: as you might recall, when G2 later when at the height of his war against Fritz of Wales gets reminded of his own quarrel with his father, he doesn't just retort "This is different, I was in the right then and am in the right now!", he also emphasizes how much better he treats FoW than his father has treated him because he doesn't take his children from him, even though he could, because he knows what it's like. Now G2 would never win a parent of the year award, but I think he wasn't being disingeneous here but meant both these statements, in his G2 way, and he and Caroline couldn't understand why Fritz of Wales wasn't properly grateful.
Caroline gives birth to the William whose birth (and early death) triggered the crisis: November 1717.
January 1718: G1 starts legal proceedings, enquiring from the judges whether "the Education and Care of the Prsons of HIs Majesty's Grandchildren, and ordering the Place of their Abode, & Appointing their Governors, Governesses and other Instructors, Attendants and servant, and the Care and Approbation of their Marriages when grown up, belong of right to his Majesty, as King of this Realm, or not?" Unsurprisngly, a majority of judges decides damn well they do.
(Prussian war tribunals apparantly are made of sterner stuff when it comes to refusing monarchs the judgment they want to have.)
At first, Caroline's fave the Countess (Schaumburg-Lippe-)Bückeburg who is the girls' governess is allowed to visit her each evening to report on the kids. And then G1 fires her as governess (she was Caroline's bff) and replaces her by Lady Portland.
(G2 and Caroline hated Lady Portland accordingly and fired her as soon as G1 had breathed his last, but since the girls once grown up kept corresponding with her, one can say they grew attached and she evidently wasn't an evil cliché.)
(Lady Mary who met the fired Lady Portland shortly after the firing gave a witty though heartless description of her in her letters since Lady P had taken the firing to heart: "Her funereal appearance represented very finely an Egyptian Mummy embroider'd with hieroglyphics.")
On a similar note, G2 unsurprisingly fired the bulk of his father's servants and attendants after G1's death. Otoh, Fritz of Wales once finally arriving in London hired most of those who were still there and out of a job (remember, it took over a year between the death and Fritz of Wales' kidnapping, err, invite) into his personal service. Given he'd likely known many of them from Hannover, that makes sense and wasn't yet an anti-Dad gesture.)
Summer of 1720: G1 returns to Hannover. For this occasion, he allows the three princesses to rejoin their parents.
Anyway: as you might recall, when G2 later when at the height of his war against Fritz of Wales gets reminded of his own quarrel with his father, he doesn't just retort "This is different, I was in the right then and am in the right now!", he also emphasizes how much better he treats FoW than his father has treated him because he doesn't take his children from him, even though he could, because he knows what it's like. Now G2 would never win a parent of the year award, but I think he wasn't being disingeneous here but meant both these statements, in his G2 way, and he and Caroline couldn't understand why Fritz of Wales wasn't properly grateful.
January 1718: G1 starts legal proceedings, enquiring from the judges whether "the Education and Care of the Prsons of HIs Majesty's Grandchildren, and ordering the Place of their Abode, & Appointing their Governors, Governesses and other Instructors, Attendants and servant, and the Care and Approbation of their Marriages when grown up, belong of right to his Majesty, as King of this Realm, or not?" Unsurprisngly, a majority of judges decides damn well they do.
(Prussian war tribunals apparantly are made of sterner stuff when it comes to refusing monarchs the judgment they want to have.)
Geesh. Yeah, this does highlight how the Prussian war tribunal was not... doing the safe thing. (Also I always have to shoutout to my faves the pastors!) Though to be fair I think G1's legal proceeding does have a bit more merit to it (even if I generally disagree).
he also emphasizes how much better he treats FoW than his father has treated him because he doesn't take his children from him, even though he could, because he knows what it's like. Now G2 would never win a parent of the year award, but I think he wasn't being disingeneous here but meant both these statements, in his G2 way, and he and Caroline couldn't understand why Fritz of Wales wasn't properly grateful.
Ooooof yeah. Like Fritz treats Heinrich so much better than FW treated him, and why isn't Heinrich properly grateful! Sigh.
(Prussian war tribunals apparantly are made of sterner stuff when it comes to refusing monarchs the judgment they want to have.)
Geesh. Yeah, this does highlight how the Prussian war tribunal was not... doing the safe thing. (Also I always have to shoutout to my faves the pastors!) Though to be fair I think G1's legal proceeding does have a bit more merit to it (even if I generally disagree).
he also emphasizes how much better he treats FoW than his father has treated him because he doesn't take his children from him, even though he could, because he knows what it's like. Now G2 would never win a parent of the year award, but I think he wasn't being disingeneous here but meant both these statements, in his G2 way, and he and Caroline couldn't understand why Fritz of Wales wasn't properly grateful.
Ooooof yeah. Like Fritz treats Heinrich so much better than FW treated him, and why isn't Heinrich properly grateful! Sigh.
[personal profile] cahn, is your German up to that?
My German is not up to recognizing names as plays on words! That being said... my English is often not up to that either. Someone had to point out to me, for example, "Diagon Alley." (This often leads to much hilarity in my household, because at least two other people in it at present are more attuned to puns than I am, with the youngest member diligently striving to get to that point.)
Anyway, thank you for pointing it out, and now I get it :)
My German is not up to recognizing names as plays on words! That being said... my English is often not up to that either. Someone had to point out to me, for example, "Diagon Alley." (This often leads to much hilarity in my household, because at least two other people in it at present are more attuned to puns than I am, with the youngest member diligently striving to get to that point.)
Anyway, thank you for pointing it out, and now I get it :)
When G1 finally kicks it, en route to Hannover, Fritz of Wales acts as chief mourner at the funeral in Hannover. He'd seen his grandfather during the later's regular visits to Hannover, but no other member of his family. And despite there being four months between G1's death and G2's coronation, he wasn't invited. He wasn't invited for over a year, and then, finally, only because of, surprise surprise, a certain marriage projects.
Like I said, with the birth and survival of William of Cumberland at the latest, Caroline and George Augustus emotionally buried their oldest, long before Fritz of Wales had any chance to personally piss them off. Which also can be seen by the inheritance question.
G1 in his last will, written at a point when "Fritzchen" was still the only son future G2 had, had written that if at some future point there were two male heirs in the same generation, the older should get Britain and the younger Hannover. This was intended for Fritz of Wales' future heirs, since both George Louis and George Augustus at the point when the will was written had only one son each. However, once George Augustus had actually a second son who made it out of the first few months of babyhood alive, there was suddenly a situation where this scenario could happen a generation earlier. At which point G2 and Caroline pointed out that since Fritz of Wales was educated in Hannover, it would make sense if he'd get Hannover and new beloved Bill get Britain. G1 wasn't keen on anything G2 suggested, but he said this actually made kind of sense BUT that it was unfair to do this without asking Fritz of Wales what HE wanted. (Who was raised bilingualy and trained as hard as Wilhelmine at the same time for his destiny as future King of England.) This, G2 and Caroline did not want. They wanted it to be decided, full stop. G1 didn't budge. End result: when G1 died, G2 went to some considerale effort to collect all three copies of the will and destroy them, lest it could be used to make young Cumberland go to Hannover and give Fritz of Wales Britain.
The infamous marriage project also was subject to G2's kneejerk reaction to anything his father had suggested first, to wit, the Fritz of Prussia/ Princess A? and Wilhelmine/Fritz of Wales matching. G2 never liked the idea of a spawn of FW as an in-law. Dennison provides a quote from G2 on this matter which I hadn't been familiar with before, to wit: Grafting my half-witted (son) upon a madwoman would not mend the breed. (Source footnoting for this one: Hervey's memoirs, the latest non-Victorian edition we DON'T have, volume 3, and a biography of Princess Anne.) Then legend has it this happens:
Fritz of Wales: Okay, a year has passed since Granddad died, I'm still in Hannover, still single, that's it, gonna show up in Berlin and marry Wilhelmine on my lonesome.
G2 (informed by spies): No you don't! Kidnap the Prince at a masque ball, bring him here!
Whereas Dennison says this happened:
Fritz of Wales: Okay, a year has passed, I'm still in Hannover, gonna make myself useful and help arrange the marriage between my cousin of Ansbach and Friederike, my hopefully soon sister-in-law, daughter of FW.
Caroline: You what? What business is my nephew's marriage of yours? Husband, we need to bring him here.
G2: Kidnap the prince at a masque ball, bring him here!
Fritz of Wales arrives without public fanfare through the back entrance of the St. James Palace and is presented with a family who hasn't been missing him. Things go downhill from there.
As for Hervey: Dennison goes with a replacement mother/son relationship between him and Caroline, additionally ensuring the relationship between him and Fritz of Wales is doomed, though he oddly doesn't mention the fact that Caroline's disliked lady in waiting Lady Bristol was Hervey's mother, who hated him as Caroline came to hate Fritz of Wales.
Now, remember how the fervent German nationalist historian detailing Sir Charles Hotham's mission to Berlin who ranted against perfidious and doubletongued Albion had gone on about how SD had written a lovely letter to Caroline in the winter of 1729 asking what was up and how Caroline the double tongued never replied, and that Hotham never refered to this key letter towards FW etc.? In Dennison's Caroline biography, the same series of events sound like this:
A letter written by a British diplomat in December 1729 suggested that Frederick William had "forced" Sophia Dorothea "to write an insolent letter of his dictating to our Queen (Caroline), insisting on her speedy performance of hte opes she has given her of marrying Prince Frederick to her oldest daughter (Anne), and this before February next, and unconditionally, or else she cannot hinder her husband from disposing of her to someone else." In George Augustus, to whom Caroline was bound to show such a letter, such high-handedness inspired a predictable response.
Sidenote: I'm the last to believe fervent German nationalists, but I think that one quoted SD's letter, and it did sound somewhat differently as far as I recall. Anyway, that's the last we hear of the Prussian drama, since Hannover dysfunctionality is about to kick in its own big gear once Fritz of Wales does get married. No new facts here, except that Dennison interprets the famous last exchange between a dying Caroline and G2 a bit differently. To remind everyone, it was, in French:
Caroline: *tells G2 to marry again after her death*
G2: Never! I shall have mistresses.
Caroline in Hervey's memoirs: That works, too.
Caroline in Dennison's biography: That's no impediment to marriage.
Caroline dies, after that painful illness, Händel composes a new work in her honor ("The Ways of Zion to Mourn"), G2 says "I never saw a woman worth to buckle her shoe" and at the Royal Exchange, a wit posts: "Death, where is thy sting? To take the Queen, and leave the King!" (As by this time, G2 had lost all the popularity he'd had as Prince of Wales, not least because by his trips to Hannover post ascension to the throne, he'd shown that he did not, as had been expected, "hate Germany and love England". Dennison thinks it's very unfair that Caroline is forgotten today, who'd been the first Princess of Wales since a young Katherine of Aragon and who'd been the most powerful Queen Consort in many a generation, too, doing more than any other single member of the Hannover royal family to assure it became largedly accepted in GB, and he opes his biography helps bringing her memory back at least somewhat.
Like I said, with the birth and survival of William of Cumberland at the latest, Caroline and George Augustus emotionally buried their oldest, long before Fritz of Wales had any chance to personally piss them off. Which also can be seen by the inheritance question.
G1 in his last will, written at a point when "Fritzchen" was still the only son future G2 had, had written that if at some future point there were two male heirs in the same generation, the older should get Britain and the younger Hannover. This was intended for Fritz of Wales' future heirs, since both George Louis and George Augustus at the point when the will was written had only one son each. However, once George Augustus had actually a second son who made it out of the first few months of babyhood alive, there was suddenly a situation where this scenario could happen a generation earlier. At which point G2 and Caroline pointed out that since Fritz of Wales was educated in Hannover, it would make sense if he'd get Hannover and new beloved Bill get Britain. G1 wasn't keen on anything G2 suggested, but he said this actually made kind of sense BUT that it was unfair to do this without asking Fritz of Wales what HE wanted. (Who was raised bilingualy and trained as hard as Wilhelmine at the same time for his destiny as future King of England.) This, G2 and Caroline did not want. They wanted it to be decided, full stop. G1 didn't budge. End result: when G1 died, G2 went to some considerale effort to collect all three copies of the will and destroy them, lest it could be used to make young Cumberland go to Hannover and give Fritz of Wales Britain.
The infamous marriage project also was subject to G2's kneejerk reaction to anything his father had suggested first, to wit, the Fritz of Prussia/ Princess A? and Wilhelmine/Fritz of Wales matching. G2 never liked the idea of a spawn of FW as an in-law. Dennison provides a quote from G2 on this matter which I hadn't been familiar with before, to wit: Grafting my half-witted (son) upon a madwoman would not mend the breed. (Source footnoting for this one: Hervey's memoirs, the latest non-Victorian edition we DON'T have, volume 3, and a biography of Princess Anne.) Then legend has it this happens:
Fritz of Wales: Okay, a year has passed since Granddad died, I'm still in Hannover, still single, that's it, gonna show up in Berlin and marry Wilhelmine on my lonesome.
G2 (informed by spies): No you don't! Kidnap the Prince at a masque ball, bring him here!
Whereas Dennison says this happened:
Fritz of Wales: Okay, a year has passed, I'm still in Hannover, gonna make myself useful and help arrange the marriage between my cousin of Ansbach and Friederike, my hopefully soon sister-in-law, daughter of FW.
Caroline: You what? What business is my nephew's marriage of yours? Husband, we need to bring him here.
G2: Kidnap the prince at a masque ball, bring him here!
Fritz of Wales arrives without public fanfare through the back entrance of the St. James Palace and is presented with a family who hasn't been missing him. Things go downhill from there.
As for Hervey: Dennison goes with a replacement mother/son relationship between him and Caroline, additionally ensuring the relationship between him and Fritz of Wales is doomed, though he oddly doesn't mention the fact that Caroline's disliked lady in waiting Lady Bristol was Hervey's mother, who hated him as Caroline came to hate Fritz of Wales.
Now, remember how the fervent German nationalist historian detailing Sir Charles Hotham's mission to Berlin who ranted against perfidious and doubletongued Albion had gone on about how SD had written a lovely letter to Caroline in the winter of 1729 asking what was up and how Caroline the double tongued never replied, and that Hotham never refered to this key letter towards FW etc.? In Dennison's Caroline biography, the same series of events sound like this:
A letter written by a British diplomat in December 1729 suggested that Frederick William had "forced" Sophia Dorothea "to write an insolent letter of his dictating to our Queen (Caroline), insisting on her speedy performance of hte opes she has given her of marrying Prince Frederick to her oldest daughter (Anne), and this before February next, and unconditionally, or else she cannot hinder her husband from disposing of her to someone else." In George Augustus, to whom Caroline was bound to show such a letter, such high-handedness inspired a predictable response.
Sidenote: I'm the last to believe fervent German nationalists, but I think that one quoted SD's letter, and it did sound somewhat differently as far as I recall. Anyway, that's the last we hear of the Prussian drama, since Hannover dysfunctionality is about to kick in its own big gear once Fritz of Wales does get married. No new facts here, except that Dennison interprets the famous last exchange between a dying Caroline and G2 a bit differently. To remind everyone, it was, in French:
Caroline: *tells G2 to marry again after her death*
G2: Never! I shall have mistresses.
Caroline in Hervey's memoirs: That works, too.
Caroline in Dennison's biography: That's no impediment to marriage.
Caroline dies, after that painful illness, Händel composes a new work in her honor ("The Ways of Zion to Mourn"), G2 says "I never saw a woman worth to buckle her shoe" and at the Royal Exchange, a wit posts: "Death, where is thy sting? To take the Queen, and leave the King!" (As by this time, G2 had lost all the popularity he'd had as Prince of Wales, not least because by his trips to Hannover post ascension to the throne, he'd shown that he did not, as had been expected, "hate Germany and love England". Dennison thinks it's very unfair that Caroline is forgotten today, who'd been the first Princess of Wales since a young Katherine of Aragon and who'd been the most powerful Queen Consort in many a generation, too, doing more than any other single member of the Hannover royal family to assure it became largedly accepted in GB, and he opes his biography helps bringing her memory back at least somewhat.
Grafting my half-witted (son) upon a madwoman would not mend the breed.
Heh.
Sidenote: I'm the last to believe fervent German nationalists, but I think that one quoted SD's letter, and it did sound somewhat differently as far as I recall.
Hmm, that's interesting.
Dennison thinks it's very unfair that Caroline is forgotten today, who'd been the first Princess of Wales since a young Katherine of Aragon and who'd been the most powerful Queen Consort in many a generation, too, doing more than any other single member of the Hannover royal family to assure it became largedly accepted in GB, and he opes his biography helps bringing her memory back at least somewhat.
Well, between his biography and your as-always-excellent-and-entertaining writeup, you have definitely given me a lot of feelings I hadn't previously had about Caroline, who seems to have been an intelligent and overall just fascinating person.
Heh.
Sidenote: I'm the last to believe fervent German nationalists, but I think that one quoted SD's letter, and it did sound somewhat differently as far as I recall.
Hmm, that's interesting.
Dennison thinks it's very unfair that Caroline is forgotten today, who'd been the first Princess of Wales since a young Katherine of Aragon and who'd been the most powerful Queen Consort in many a generation, too, doing more than any other single member of the Hannover royal family to assure it became largedly accepted in GB, and he opes his biography helps bringing her memory back at least somewhat.
Well, between his biography and your as-always-excellent-and-entertaining writeup, you have definitely given me a lot of feelings I hadn't previously had about Caroline, who seems to have been an intelligent and overall just fascinating person.
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach- III: Gloriana
mildred_of_midgard
2021-07-31 01:31 pm (UTC)(link)
End result: when G1 died, G2 went to some considerale effort to collect all three copies of the will and destroy them, lest it could be used to make young Cumberland go to Hannover and give Fritz of Wales Britain.
Wooow. The Hanover dysfunction strikes again!
Grafting my half-witted (son) upon a madwoman would not mend the breed.
Loool, well, I see Wilhelmine isn't the only one who can be savage about her relatives!
(Source footnoting for this one: Hervey's memoirs, the latest non-Victorian edition we DON'T have, volume 3.)
Ooh, right, I had forgotten about these incredibly expensive memoirs. Hmmmmmm. Have put them back on my wishlist for if the consulting gig works out. :D
Then legend has it this happens:
Fritz of Wales: Okay, a year has passed since Granddad died, I'm still in Hannover, still single, that's it, gonna show up in Berlin and marry Wilhelmine on my lonesome.
G2 (informed by spies): No you don't! Kidnap the Prince at a masque ball, bring him here!
Whereas Dennison says this happened:
Fritz of Wales: Okay, a year has passed, I'm still in Hannover, gonna make myself useful and help arrange the marriage between my cousin of Ansbach and Friederike, my hopefully soon sister-in-law, daughter of FW.
Caroline: You what? What business is my nephew's marriage of yours? Husband, we need to bring him here.
G2: Kidnap the prince at a masque ball, bring him here!
Well, those are very different things! I do remember wondering what evidence there was about the plan to sneak off and marry Wilhelmine, it seemed very unlikely. Seems like maybe it was too good to be true? Or maybe the second version was the cover-up story. :P
Wooow. The Hanover dysfunction strikes again!
Grafting my half-witted (son) upon a madwoman would not mend the breed.
Loool, well, I see Wilhelmine isn't the only one who can be savage about her relatives!
(Source footnoting for this one: Hervey's memoirs, the latest non-Victorian edition we DON'T have, volume 3.)
Ooh, right, I had forgotten about these incredibly expensive memoirs. Hmmmmmm. Have put them back on my wishlist for if the consulting gig works out. :D
Then legend has it this happens:
Fritz of Wales: Okay, a year has passed since Granddad died, I'm still in Hannover, still single, that's it, gonna show up in Berlin and marry Wilhelmine on my lonesome.
G2 (informed by spies): No you don't! Kidnap the Prince at a masque ball, bring him here!
Whereas Dennison says this happened:
Fritz of Wales: Okay, a year has passed, I'm still in Hannover, gonna make myself useful and help arrange the marriage between my cousin of Ansbach and Friederike, my hopefully soon sister-in-law, daughter of FW.
Caroline: You what? What business is my nephew's marriage of yours? Husband, we need to bring him here.
G2: Kidnap the prince at a masque ball, bring him here!
Well, those are very different things! I do remember wondering what evidence there was about the plan to sneak off and marry Wilhelmine, it seemed very unlikely. Seems like maybe it was too good to be true? Or maybe the second version was the cover-up story. :P
Loool, well, I see Wilhelmine isn't the only one who can be savage about her relatives!
No kidding. I do wonder whether he's speaking out of the general assumption any daughter of FW is probably as mad as FW, or whether Wilhelmine was in right in her memoirs that her old governess Leti told Lady Darlington/Gräfin Kielmannsegg all kind of negative things about her, of which the story of her having uneven shoulders (a la grandpa F1) was but one. (But the one which she had to undress in front of Hannover ladies for when Mom wanted to prove she had a straight back.)
Well, those are very different things! I do remember wondering what evidence there was about the plan to sneak off and marry Wilhelmine, it seemed very unlikely. Seems like maybe it was too good to be true? Or maybe the second version was the cover-up story. :P
Since Dennison is a good biographer who does footnotes and source references, I can tell you he has both stories from: Vivian, Frances: A life of Frederick, Prince of Wales, 1707 - 1751: A Connoiseur of the Arts. The Edwin Mellen Press, Lewiston, 2006. He does not mention who Vivian's primary sources were.
ETA: in the AU where Fritz of Wales shows up in Berlin to marry Wilhelmine and asks for asylum from mean Dad and Mom while he's at it, I've already asked how you think FW would respond; now I'm asking how Wilhelmine and Fritz would?
No kidding. I do wonder whether he's speaking out of the general assumption any daughter of FW is probably as mad as FW, or whether Wilhelmine was in right in her memoirs that her old governess Leti told Lady Darlington/Gräfin Kielmannsegg all kind of negative things about her, of which the story of her having uneven shoulders (a la grandpa F1) was but one. (But the one which she had to undress in front of Hannover ladies for when Mom wanted to prove she had a straight back.)
Well, those are very different things! I do remember wondering what evidence there was about the plan to sneak off and marry Wilhelmine, it seemed very unlikely. Seems like maybe it was too good to be true? Or maybe the second version was the cover-up story. :P
Since Dennison is a good biographer who does footnotes and source references, I can tell you he has both stories from: Vivian, Frances: A life of Frederick, Prince of Wales, 1707 - 1751: A Connoiseur of the Arts. The Edwin Mellen Press, Lewiston, 2006. He does not mention who Vivian's primary sources were.
ETA: in the AU where Fritz of Wales shows up in Berlin to marry Wilhelmine and asks for asylum from mean Dad and Mom while he's at it, I've already asked how you think FW would respond; now I'm asking how Wilhelmine and Fritz would?
Edited 2021-08-01 11:22 (UTC)
Re: The First Iron Lady: A life of Caroline of Ansbach- III: Gloriana
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-01 11:51 pm (UTC)(link)
I've already asked how you think FW would respond; now I'm asking how Wilhelmine and Fritz would?
Ooh, that's a really good question. What year is this, remind me?
Ooh, that's a really good question. What year is this, remind me?
Well, in rl Fritz of Wales arrives in London and gets reintroduced to his (un)loving family at 7 pm on a dark December evening in 1728, so if he'd gone to Berlin instead, it would have been around this time (i.e. say, November 1728?) Of course, back then he didn't know how badly things would get with Mom and Dad, so he wouldn't have sought asylum yet. For that, the perfect year is...drumroll... 1730, when G2 at January 31st is observed by courtiers in public jesting with son William about what a fabulous King he'd make while simultanously refusing to grant Fritz of Wales more than a third of the budget George Augustus himself had had as Prince of Wales, with the argument that FoW isn't married, which doesn't look as if it's about to change soon given G2's enthusiasm for the Prussian marriage project....
Finally having a chance to read again, I read a book called Longitude, about the problem of figuring out your longitude at sea. It's more interesting than it sounds!
Caveats first: even a few pages into the Kindle sample, I started getting suspicious about how hard the author was taking her protagonist's side and ragging on his opponents. Then shortly after buying the book and reading a little further, I hit two "Really?" anecdotes, to which Wikipedia promptly said, "No, not really." Both were described as local legends that were first recorded much later, and were contradicted by documentary evidence.
So how much of this I should be believing, I don't know. But the book was a very readable piece of popular science history, and I definitely learned a lot.
On to the book!
Finding your location at sea is a super important problem, for the following important reasons, among others:
1. Finding land and not dying of scurvy.
2. Not having to adhere to the same handful of well-known shipping lanes as all the other countries and getting ambushed and raided by them.
3. Not suddenly getting run aground and dying in shipwreck because you had no idea you were this close to land.
Re 3, I didn't realize just how bad it was before reading this book, but in 1707, during the War of the Spanish Succession, 4 English warships returning to England crashed into the Isles of Scilly, because the crew didn't know how close they were to England, and sank. The death toll was somewhere between 1,400 and 2,000 sailors. (This is where two local legends arose that apparently have no bearing in reality, which is too bad, because they're really good stories.)
This was a really, really bad experience, obviously, and it led directly to the Longitude Act of 1714 (i.e. as soon as the war was over). Parliament offered 20,000 pounds to anyone who could solve the problem of determining longitude at sea.
The problem with determining longitude is that the earth rotates, so the stars keep moving in the sky (or appearing to). So their position changes with time. The North Star makes latitude easy, but for longitude, you have to know exactly what time it is where you are and exactly what time it is in some position of known longitude (like London).
This sounds easy to us, but in the 18th century, determining exactly what time it was was a really, really hard problem. Because of friction, clocks lost time and had to be rewound. While they were rewound, they didn't measure time, so they had to be set with reference to some other clock. Pendulums in pendulum clocks were made out of materials that would shrink in the cold and expand in the heat, so they would swing faster or slower. Finally, at sea, with all the tossing and turning due to the winds and waves, it was insanely hard to keep a clock from getting thrown out of sync by all the agitation.
So this problem of knowing what time it is, and therefore where you are, was an extremely unsolved problem in those days.
The author presents one hilarious method that was suggested in 1688, which she can't tell whether it's satire or not, but having read the original pamphlet as well as Wikipedia, I am extremely convinced is satire. The idea was that there was this thing in medical quackery called "sympathy powder," which worked kind of like voodoo dolls. You would take a wounded dog and create sympathy powder on port. Then the dog would go on board the ship, and the sympathy powder would stay behind. By doing the equivalent of voodoo back at home at regular intervals with the sympathy powder, you would make the dog on the ship yelp in pain. Then, two or three months later, the sailors would know what time it was back home by when the dog on the ship barked.
SATIRE.
Anyway, because of the economic and military payoffs, both governments and leading scientists took a huge interest in the subject. The book is full of names like Galileo, Newton, Hooke, Halley, Louis XIV, and George III.
Now, there were two main schools of thought for how to tackle this problem. One was the celestial measurement approach, and one was the timekeeping approach. According to the celestial measurement approach, you needed astronomers to plot the motions of some body or bodies in the sky, determine what was predictable over time, make up tables containing the data, give the tables in the form of an almanac to the sailors, have the sailors take measurements at sea, and then have them consult the books.
Galileo came up with a very good method for doing this, but unfortunately, it only really worked on land, under ideal conditions. It led to huge improvements in mapmaking! This is when people finally realized that 1) the Atlantic Ocean was a whole lot wider than they'd thought, 2) certain countries were not as big as thought. Allegedly, Louis XIV quipped that he was losing more of his territory to the astronomers than to his enemies. But he did keep funding them.
That's the astronomy approach. It was worked on by royal societies and observatories and funded by monarchs and parliaments.
Then there was the timekeeper approach, according to which all you had to have was a device that told the time and didn't gain or lose more than 3 seconds a day. You'd set it before you sailed from port, you'd take the local time using astronomical measurements, and you'd compare the time of your device (the time back in London or wherever) to local time (the time in the middle of the Pacific or wherever), and knowing the difference in times and the longitude of London, you could solve easily for the longitude of your current location.
This was worked on by one probably autistic Englishman of humble origins who decided to devote his life to tinkering with making clocks better. He first got assistance from his brother, and then his son. His name was John Harrison. [To quote the author, His family, in keeping with the custom of the time, dealt out names so parsimoniously that it is impossible to keep track of all the Henrys, Johns, and Elizabeths without pencil and paper. To wit, John Harrison served as the son, grandson, brother, and uncle of one Henry Harrison or another, while his mother, his sister, both his wives, his only daughter, and two of his three daughters-in-law all answered to the name Elizabeth.]
By 1730, he was introducing himself to Edmund Halley and presenting him with the drawings for the sea clock he had in mind. Halley sent him to a clockmaker friend, who gave him a loan to work on the clock.
In 1735, Harrison got to do a trial run with his clock. The admiralty decided to send it to Lisbon with Admiral Norris in 1736.
Now, if you're me, the words "Lisbon with Admiral Norris in 1736" is a magic phrase that means "Peter Keith." Given Peter's already demonstrated scientific interests in the early 1730s, and his later honorary Academy of Sciences membership, I was super hoping they were on the same ship! But alas, Peter (according to his eulogy) was on the flagship Britannia, which sailed in May, and Harrison was on the Centurion, which joined the main fleet in Lisbon in late September. But Harrison and Peter were in Lisbon at the same time as part of the same fleet, and they could have met there.
I also learned, while doing a bit of detective work, that the Englishmen who arrived in Lisbon in the second half of 1736 got so sick and so many of them died, due to a combination of an outbreak of smallpox and dysentery due possibly to local food that the English hadn't adjusted to, that Norris requested permission to sail home asap, and when he couldn't get it, demanded and received a hospital ship. 1 in 6 of the 12,000 men were recorded as sick. (Look, I just want to know every single detail I can reconstruct about the elusive Peter's life, it's my detective case.)
Anyway, back home in 1737, Harrison was presenting the results to the Board of Longitude (no, really, it was called that). His device had barely lost any time on the trial runs to and from Lisbon.
Everyone was super impressed! England was going to get a huge advantage over her enemies if this worked out! This was the time to demand the trial voyage to the West Indies required by the 1714 act as a prerequisite for the £20,000 prize.
But instead of advertising how great his invention was, Harrison proved himself a true engineer by pointing out its defects and talking about how he knew he could make a better one, and make it smaller, if they just gave him £500 and some more time to work on it. Once it was up to his standards, he'd submit it for a trial run, but not now. (I laughed so hard in recognition and knew I immediately had to share withcahn. Engineer mentality at its finest!)
"Uh, okay. Works for us," said the board that didn't have to pay £20,000.
Then Harrison disappeared for 20 years to work nonstop on 3 more iterations of his clock, which he eventually got down to a watch. A largish watch, but still a watch. He sacrificed his health and his work-life balance to this obsession.
Unfortunately, this dedication to his craft proves to be a political error, because in the meantime, his open-minded buddy Halley dies and is replaced as Astronomer Royal by a succession of astronomers who believe that astronomy is the One True Way for solving the longitude problem, and who are out to persecute poor lone genius John Harrison.
This is where the narrative becomes incredibly one-sided and I'm not sure we have the full story. But there seems to have been a rivalry between the astronomers and Harrison once he was ready to claim his prize. Eventually, George III, the noble, scientifically minded king takes the part of Our Hero and all is right with the world. Harrison doesn't get the prize because of politicking, but he gets an equivalent amount of money from Parliament by taking George's advice on presenting himself favorably during the trial. (Spends 20 years of his life tinkering with clocks and only emerging from his workshop to ask for a little more money to kepe working, talks shop for 10 solid hours with another clockmaker, is described as stubborn and argumentative, can't write readable prose to save his life, apparently has limited people skills...sounds spectrumish to me, based on what little data I have.)
Euler gets a cameo in the book for winning a prize for his role in furthering the cause, by reducing certain celestial motions to elegant equations and corresponding with an English astronomer who was able to apply those equations to the longitude problem.
In the end, the longitude problem seems to have been solved by a combination of astronomical (though you have to read between the lines and recall some other history you have read to get that from this rather biased-seeming book) and mechanical advances. But the ability to make a clock that does lose several minutes a day was a huge win for many other reasons, and led directly to the mass-production of pocket watches and wrist-watches that were actually reliable.
One thing that Harrison apparently invented that I had actually heard of was the bimetallic strip, which is used in thermostats even today (the context in which I learned about it in physics class). Since metals expand and contract at different rates at different temperatures, you can get something that will keep the temperature from getting too hot or too cold by combining two metals together in a strip, which will keep the temperature within a certain range by flexing in one direction or the other, depending on which of its two metals is reacting to it being too hot or too cold.
Harrison invented this to compensate for the fact that all previous timekeeping devices lost or gained time depending on the temperature. He used a combination of metals in first rods--in his first, large clocks--and then a bimetallic strip in his smaller, more sophisticated watches.
So that was cool.
The devices he built are called the H1, H2, H3, and H4 ('H' for 'Harrison'), and you can view them today (or some post-pandemic utopian future) at the National Maritime Museum, and online in the meantime. The H1, the original giant clock that went to Lisbon.
The H2, the improved version.
The H3, the one that took 20 years of his and then his son's life.
The H4, the one where he went from "This can never be made watch-sized" to "Oh, wait, it can!" because someone made him a really good watch for his personal use, incorporating many of his inventions (including the bimetallic strip), and that made him go "Hmmm."
Caveats first: even a few pages into the Kindle sample, I started getting suspicious about how hard the author was taking her protagonist's side and ragging on his opponents. Then shortly after buying the book and reading a little further, I hit two "Really?" anecdotes, to which Wikipedia promptly said, "No, not really." Both were described as local legends that were first recorded much later, and were contradicted by documentary evidence.
So how much of this I should be believing, I don't know. But the book was a very readable piece of popular science history, and I definitely learned a lot.
On to the book!
Finding your location at sea is a super important problem, for the following important reasons, among others:
1. Finding land and not dying of scurvy.
2. Not having to adhere to the same handful of well-known shipping lanes as all the other countries and getting ambushed and raided by them.
3. Not suddenly getting run aground and dying in shipwreck because you had no idea you were this close to land.
Re 3, I didn't realize just how bad it was before reading this book, but in 1707, during the War of the Spanish Succession, 4 English warships returning to England crashed into the Isles of Scilly, because the crew didn't know how close they were to England, and sank. The death toll was somewhere between 1,400 and 2,000 sailors. (This is where two local legends arose that apparently have no bearing in reality, which is too bad, because they're really good stories.)
This was a really, really bad experience, obviously, and it led directly to the Longitude Act of 1714 (i.e. as soon as the war was over). Parliament offered 20,000 pounds to anyone who could solve the problem of determining longitude at sea.
The problem with determining longitude is that the earth rotates, so the stars keep moving in the sky (or appearing to). So their position changes with time. The North Star makes latitude easy, but for longitude, you have to know exactly what time it is where you are and exactly what time it is in some position of known longitude (like London).
This sounds easy to us, but in the 18th century, determining exactly what time it was was a really, really hard problem. Because of friction, clocks lost time and had to be rewound. While they were rewound, they didn't measure time, so they had to be set with reference to some other clock. Pendulums in pendulum clocks were made out of materials that would shrink in the cold and expand in the heat, so they would swing faster or slower. Finally, at sea, with all the tossing and turning due to the winds and waves, it was insanely hard to keep a clock from getting thrown out of sync by all the agitation.
So this problem of knowing what time it is, and therefore where you are, was an extremely unsolved problem in those days.
The author presents one hilarious method that was suggested in 1688, which she can't tell whether it's satire or not, but having read the original pamphlet as well as Wikipedia, I am extremely convinced is satire. The idea was that there was this thing in medical quackery called "sympathy powder," which worked kind of like voodoo dolls. You would take a wounded dog and create sympathy powder on port. Then the dog would go on board the ship, and the sympathy powder would stay behind. By doing the equivalent of voodoo back at home at regular intervals with the sympathy powder, you would make the dog on the ship yelp in pain. Then, two or three months later, the sailors would know what time it was back home by when the dog on the ship barked.
SATIRE.
Anyway, because of the economic and military payoffs, both governments and leading scientists took a huge interest in the subject. The book is full of names like Galileo, Newton, Hooke, Halley, Louis XIV, and George III.
Now, there were two main schools of thought for how to tackle this problem. One was the celestial measurement approach, and one was the timekeeping approach. According to the celestial measurement approach, you needed astronomers to plot the motions of some body or bodies in the sky, determine what was predictable over time, make up tables containing the data, give the tables in the form of an almanac to the sailors, have the sailors take measurements at sea, and then have them consult the books.
Galileo came up with a very good method for doing this, but unfortunately, it only really worked on land, under ideal conditions. It led to huge improvements in mapmaking! This is when people finally realized that 1) the Atlantic Ocean was a whole lot wider than they'd thought, 2) certain countries were not as big as thought. Allegedly, Louis XIV quipped that he was losing more of his territory to the astronomers than to his enemies. But he did keep funding them.
That's the astronomy approach. It was worked on by royal societies and observatories and funded by monarchs and parliaments.
Then there was the timekeeper approach, according to which all you had to have was a device that told the time and didn't gain or lose more than 3 seconds a day. You'd set it before you sailed from port, you'd take the local time using astronomical measurements, and you'd compare the time of your device (the time back in London or wherever) to local time (the time in the middle of the Pacific or wherever), and knowing the difference in times and the longitude of London, you could solve easily for the longitude of your current location.
This was worked on by one probably autistic Englishman of humble origins who decided to devote his life to tinkering with making clocks better. He first got assistance from his brother, and then his son. His name was John Harrison. [To quote the author, His family, in keeping with the custom of the time, dealt out names so parsimoniously that it is impossible to keep track of all the Henrys, Johns, and Elizabeths without pencil and paper. To wit, John Harrison served as the son, grandson, brother, and uncle of one Henry Harrison or another, while his mother, his sister, both his wives, his only daughter, and two of his three daughters-in-law all answered to the name Elizabeth.]
By 1730, he was introducing himself to Edmund Halley and presenting him with the drawings for the sea clock he had in mind. Halley sent him to a clockmaker friend, who gave him a loan to work on the clock.
In 1735, Harrison got to do a trial run with his clock. The admiralty decided to send it to Lisbon with Admiral Norris in 1736.
Now, if you're me, the words "Lisbon with Admiral Norris in 1736" is a magic phrase that means "Peter Keith." Given Peter's already demonstrated scientific interests in the early 1730s, and his later honorary Academy of Sciences membership, I was super hoping they were on the same ship! But alas, Peter (according to his eulogy) was on the flagship Britannia, which sailed in May, and Harrison was on the Centurion, which joined the main fleet in Lisbon in late September. But Harrison and Peter were in Lisbon at the same time as part of the same fleet, and they could have met there.
I also learned, while doing a bit of detective work, that the Englishmen who arrived in Lisbon in the second half of 1736 got so sick and so many of them died, due to a combination of an outbreak of smallpox and dysentery due possibly to local food that the English hadn't adjusted to, that Norris requested permission to sail home asap, and when he couldn't get it, demanded and received a hospital ship. 1 in 6 of the 12,000 men were recorded as sick. (Look, I just want to know every single detail I can reconstruct about the elusive Peter's life, it's my detective case.)
Anyway, back home in 1737, Harrison was presenting the results to the Board of Longitude (no, really, it was called that). His device had barely lost any time on the trial runs to and from Lisbon.
Everyone was super impressed! England was going to get a huge advantage over her enemies if this worked out! This was the time to demand the trial voyage to the West Indies required by the 1714 act as a prerequisite for the £20,000 prize.
But instead of advertising how great his invention was, Harrison proved himself a true engineer by pointing out its defects and talking about how he knew he could make a better one, and make it smaller, if they just gave him £500 and some more time to work on it. Once it was up to his standards, he'd submit it for a trial run, but not now. (I laughed so hard in recognition and knew I immediately had to share with
cahn. Engineer mentality at its finest!)"Uh, okay. Works for us," said the board that didn't have to pay £20,000.
Then Harrison disappeared for 20 years to work nonstop on 3 more iterations of his clock, which he eventually got down to a watch. A largish watch, but still a watch. He sacrificed his health and his work-life balance to this obsession.
Unfortunately, this dedication to his craft proves to be a political error, because in the meantime, his open-minded buddy Halley dies and is replaced as Astronomer Royal by a succession of astronomers who believe that astronomy is the One True Way for solving the longitude problem, and who are out to persecute poor lone genius John Harrison.
This is where the narrative becomes incredibly one-sided and I'm not sure we have the full story. But there seems to have been a rivalry between the astronomers and Harrison once he was ready to claim his prize. Eventually, George III, the noble, scientifically minded king takes the part of Our Hero and all is right with the world. Harrison doesn't get the prize because of politicking, but he gets an equivalent amount of money from Parliament by taking George's advice on presenting himself favorably during the trial. (Spends 20 years of his life tinkering with clocks and only emerging from his workshop to ask for a little more money to kepe working, talks shop for 10 solid hours with another clockmaker, is described as stubborn and argumentative, can't write readable prose to save his life, apparently has limited people skills...sounds spectrumish to me, based on what little data I have.)
Euler gets a cameo in the book for winning a prize for his role in furthering the cause, by reducing certain celestial motions to elegant equations and corresponding with an English astronomer who was able to apply those equations to the longitude problem.
In the end, the longitude problem seems to have been solved by a combination of astronomical (though you have to read between the lines and recall some other history you have read to get that from this rather biased-seeming book) and mechanical advances. But the ability to make a clock that does lose several minutes a day was a huge win for many other reasons, and led directly to the mass-production of pocket watches and wrist-watches that were actually reliable.
One thing that Harrison apparently invented that I had actually heard of was the bimetallic strip, which is used in thermostats even today (the context in which I learned about it in physics class). Since metals expand and contract at different rates at different temperatures, you can get something that will keep the temperature from getting too hot or too cold by combining two metals together in a strip, which will keep the temperature within a certain range by flexing in one direction or the other, depending on which of its two metals is reacting to it being too hot or too cold.
Harrison invented this to compensate for the fact that all previous timekeeping devices lost or gained time depending on the temperature. He used a combination of metals in first rods--in his first, large clocks--and then a bimetallic strip in his smaller, more sophisticated watches.
So that was cool.
The devices he built are called the H1, H2, H3, and H4 ('H' for 'Harrison'), and you can view them today (or some post-pandemic utopian future) at the National Maritime Museum, and online in the meantime. The H1, the original giant clock that went to Lisbon.
The H2, the improved version.
The H3, the one that took 20 years of his and then his son's life.
The H4, the one where he went from "This can never be made watch-sized" to "Oh, wait, it can!" because someone made him a really good watch for his personal use, incorporating many of his inventions (including the bimetallic strip), and that made him go "Hmmm."
Edited 2021-08-02 00:04 (UTC)
Hang on, wasn't there a tv two parter with Michael Gambon as Harrison and Jeremy Irons as a 20th century creature rediscovering him, based on this book? I haven't watched it, but it got recced to me a couple of times.
Mind you, checking out wiki, it also seems to think G3 saved the day for Harrison. And while he was still compos mentis, he was interested in the sciences and very supportive. (One of many reasons why the decadent King Britpop version of him in Hamilton cracks me up was that of all the Hannovers, G3 was the least like that for sure. (Not even when mad.) I mean, this is "Farmer George" we're talking about, he who was way more into gardening and the natural sciences than partying and was the most bourgois of monarchs this side of FW in that century.
Greenwich and the Royal Observatory (and the Maritime Museum), btw, is very worth a visit, if you two haven't been there in ye olde days when it was still possible to travel. You can take the subway, but I went per boat in 2016, which a fabulous ride where you see lots of London from the Thames.
Alas I don't recall the Harrison clockworks, which look gorgeous in the pics you linked, but I did take photos of the Royal Observatory, the Cutty Sark and the Navy Museum (located in the former palace; the fact that they have the Armada portrait there reminds me Elizabeth I was actually born at Greenwich, though only a tiny part of the old structure survives):
Greenwich Palace:
The Cutty Sark:
The largest collection of figureheads, so I'm told:
The Royal Observatory:
Where they have the Meridian. I did, however, have no intent to queue for 45 minutes in order to step on it. There were other things to admire. Like a statue of Yuri Gargarin, aka the first man in space:
And what a magnificent view from the Observatory back to London!
Mind you, checking out wiki, it also seems to think G3 saved the day for Harrison. And while he was still compos mentis, he was interested in the sciences and very supportive. (One of many reasons why the decadent King Britpop version of him in Hamilton cracks me up was that of all the Hannovers, G3 was the least like that for sure. (Not even when mad.) I mean, this is "Farmer George" we're talking about, he who was way more into gardening and the natural sciences than partying and was the most bourgois of monarchs this side of FW in that century.
Greenwich and the Royal Observatory (and the Maritime Museum), btw, is very worth a visit, if you two haven't been there in ye olde days when it was still possible to travel. You can take the subway, but I went per boat in 2016, which a fabulous ride where you see lots of London from the Thames.
Alas I don't recall the Harrison clockworks, which look gorgeous in the pics you linked, but I did take photos of the Royal Observatory, the Cutty Sark and the Navy Museum (located in the former palace; the fact that they have the Armada portrait there reminds me Elizabeth I was actually born at Greenwich, though only a tiny part of the old structure survives):
Greenwich Palace:
The Cutty Sark:
The largest collection of figureheads, so I'm told:
The Royal Observatory:
Where they have the Meridian. I did, however, have no intent to queue for 45 minutes in order to step on it. There were other things to admire. Like a statue of Yuri Gargarin, aka the first man in space:
And what a magnificent view from the Observatory back to London!
Hang on, wasn't there a tv two parter with Michael Gambon as Harrison and Jeremy Irons as a 20th century creature rediscovering him, based on this book?
Unsurprisingly, I've never heard of it. Let us know if you watch it!
Mind you, checking out wiki, it also seems to think G3 saved the day for Harrison. And while he was still compos mentis, he was interested in the sciences and very supportive.
Oh, sure, the factual aspect of G3 saving Harrison is not the part I'm questioning! That seems well enough documented. It's the fairy-tale vibe of good triumphing over evil and the monarch as a symbol of good that I'm side-eyeing. Maybe it was that one-sided! But I feel like a book written from the perspective of the astronomers miiiight have more to say about their contributions and not just how they persecuted poor Harrison.
(I have to say, reading Czernin after Blanning on Joseph II was kind of a trip. I walked away glad I had read *both*, because each of them showed me exactly how selective the other was being.)
What lovely pictures you have, as always! I have not been; have not been to London, in fact. My planned 2018 trip got canceled a few days before I was due to leave, because work was being brutal. :/ But the Royal Observatory looks amazing, and I will keep it in mind when I do finally make it to London.
Unsurprisingly, I've never heard of it. Let us know if you watch it!
Mind you, checking out wiki, it also seems to think G3 saved the day for Harrison. And while he was still compos mentis, he was interested in the sciences and very supportive.
Oh, sure, the factual aspect of G3 saving Harrison is not the part I'm questioning! That seems well enough documented. It's the fairy-tale vibe of good triumphing over evil and the monarch as a symbol of good that I'm side-eyeing. Maybe it was that one-sided! But I feel like a book written from the perspective of the astronomers miiiight have more to say about their contributions and not just how they persecuted poor Harrison.
(I have to say, reading Czernin after Blanning on Joseph II was kind of a trip. I walked away glad I had read *both*, because each of them showed me exactly how selective the other was being.)
What lovely pictures you have, as always! I have not been; have not been to London, in fact. My planned 2018 trip got canceled a few days before I was due to leave, because work was being brutal. :/ But the Royal Observatory looks amazing, and I will keep it in mind when I do finally make it to London.
Oh, these are gorgeous pictures, as always! I especially love the ones with that amazing view!
I have been to London, though the last time was almost twenty years ago now! but never to Greenwich, and I can see I have missed out :) (...Yuri Gagarin, though?) I'll have to go back :)
I have been to London, though the last time was almost twenty years ago now! but never to Greenwich, and I can see I have missed out :) (...Yuri Gagarin, though?) I'll have to go back :)
Oh, thank you for reading this and summarizing it for us! I've seen this book around but never read it.
Hilariously, one of the reasons I never read it is because all I knew about the longitude problem I learned from Carry On, Mr. Bowditch which is a Newbery Award winner which is a fictionalization of the life of Nathaniel Bowditch, an American mathematician/navigator. I'd forgotten most of what I learned from it, but I did a bit of browsing and Bowditch's contributions were all in the "astronomy" way of doing things (since even after Harrison, chronometers were pretty expensive) -- he figured out a better way of taking/computing the lunar measurement needed to get Greenwich/London time, and even more importantly he redid all the computations of the mathematical tables that are needed to get the time from the astronomical measurement, because the tables had many errors in them. So basically this was a HUGE deal at the time, but isn't particularly today because once good timekeepers were a thing, no one really needed these huge tables anymore. (I actually bought a real biography of Bowditch a while back which I never got all the way through, but this might be a good impetus.) Anyway, I once picked up Longitude many years ago, and on seeing there was no Bowditch, put it back down and wandered away :P (Yes, indeed, all I know about history comes from historical fiction and SF/fantasy novels.)
Me: Well, I know why I think the longitude problem is interesting, but why does mildred think it's interesting? I don't think it has anything to do with Fr--
Mildred: Now, if you're me, the words "Lisbon with Admiral Norris in 1736" is a magic phrase that means "Peter Keith."
Me: Welp, guess that one's answered!
But instead of advertising how great his invention was, Harrison proved himself a true engineer by pointing out its defects and talking about how he knew he could make a better one, and make it smaller, if they just gave him £500 and some more time to work on it. Once it was up to his standards, he'd submit it for a trial run, but not now. (I laughed so hard in recognition and knew I immediately had to share with [personal profile] cahn. Engineer mentality at its finest!)
LOL! YUP.
Euler gets a cameo in the book for winning a prize for his role in furthering the cause, by reducing certain celestial motions to elegant equations and corresponding with an English astronomer who was able to apply those equations to the longitude problem.
This may be a different thing from what you're talking about, but when I was browsing today to remember about Bowditch, I found that Euler made the calculation of astronomical time (vs. chronograph time) possible by inventing Euler's method, which is basically a very simple way (at least, in these days of computers it's simple) to numerically approximate the solution to a differential equation (here, to predict the position of the moon for those lunar calculations, which is a complex earth-sun-moon three-body problem that one can't generally solve analytically). In the age of computers, this is basically Baby's First Numerical Method, but I'd never known the historical context behind why it was formulated in the first place!
Hilariously, one of the reasons I never read it is because all I knew about the longitude problem I learned from Carry On, Mr. Bowditch which is a Newbery Award winner which is a fictionalization of the life of Nathaniel Bowditch, an American mathematician/navigator. I'd forgotten most of what I learned from it, but I did a bit of browsing and Bowditch's contributions were all in the "astronomy" way of doing things (since even after Harrison, chronometers were pretty expensive) -- he figured out a better way of taking/computing the lunar measurement needed to get Greenwich/London time, and even more importantly he redid all the computations of the mathematical tables that are needed to get the time from the astronomical measurement, because the tables had many errors in them. So basically this was a HUGE deal at the time, but isn't particularly today because once good timekeepers were a thing, no one really needed these huge tables anymore. (I actually bought a real biography of Bowditch a while back which I never got all the way through, but this might be a good impetus.) Anyway, I once picked up Longitude many years ago, and on seeing there was no Bowditch, put it back down and wandered away :P (Yes, indeed, all I know about history comes from historical fiction and SF/fantasy novels.)
Me: Well, I know why I think the longitude problem is interesting, but why does mildred think it's interesting? I don't think it has anything to do with Fr--
Mildred: Now, if you're me, the words "Lisbon with Admiral Norris in 1736" is a magic phrase that means "Peter Keith."
Me: Welp, guess that one's answered!
But instead of advertising how great his invention was, Harrison proved himself a true engineer by pointing out its defects and talking about how he knew he could make a better one, and make it smaller, if they just gave him £500 and some more time to work on it. Once it was up to his standards, he'd submit it for a trial run, but not now. (I laughed so hard in recognition and knew I immediately had to share with [personal profile] cahn. Engineer mentality at its finest!)
LOL! YUP.
Euler gets a cameo in the book for winning a prize for his role in furthering the cause, by reducing certain celestial motions to elegant equations and corresponding with an English astronomer who was able to apply those equations to the longitude problem.
This may be a different thing from what you're talking about, but when I was browsing today to remember about Bowditch, I found that Euler made the calculation of astronomical time (vs. chronograph time) possible by inventing Euler's method, which is basically a very simple way (at least, in these days of computers it's simple) to numerically approximate the solution to a differential equation (here, to predict the position of the moon for those lunar calculations, which is a complex earth-sun-moon three-body problem that one can't generally solve analytically). In the age of computers, this is basically Baby's First Numerical Method, but I'd never known the historical context behind why it was formulated in the first place!
Ha, so I had also read Carry On, Mr. Bowditch and was approaching this book with that as context. Which is one reason I'm side-eyeing the author's severe downplaying of the role of astronomical calculations after Harrison had solved the chronometer problem, because last I checked, both Bowditch and, a hundred years later, Worsley in 1917 in Antarctic waters, were doing the "taking sightings, looking up tables in a book, doing calculations" thing that she disparages. The book briefly mentions that astronomical measurements and calculations continued to be necessary, but wow is the treatment one-sided.
That said, because I knew a few things about the astronomical aspects of navigation, and none at all about the engineering problem of chronometers, this book was valuable for that. But I'm very glad I went in with even the little background I did!
Incidentally, her take is that astronomy had more prestige than engineering (legit), and the fact that the longitude problem was hard meant to some people that only a hard solution was acceptable, and so the fact that taking measurements on a ship that moves up and down, having to compensate for your own height plus that of anything you're standing on, looking things up, trying to keep the book dry, etc. were all really hard were a feature rather than a bug. She says that a century or so earlier and Harrison's devices, which incorporated all the calculations into the hardware and made working them out unnecessary (except for taking local time, which I feel like she also downplays), would have been witchcraft! Since it was the 18th century, he was just dismissed as "It couldn't possibly be that easy," and that was why people kept pursuing the astronomical approach.
All of this comes with a big "Maybe these were factors, but I wish I trusted the author more, because I feel like there was more to it." Since like you said,
(since even after Harrison, chronometers were pretty expensive)
Me: Well, I know why I think the longitude problem is interesting, but why does mildred think it's interesting? I don't think it has anything to do with Fr--
Mildred: Now, if you're me, the words "Lisbon with Admiral Norris in 1736" is a magic phrase that means "Peter Keith."
Me: Welp, guess that one's answered!
Hahahahaa, well. It was a major factor in me deciding to buy and read this book after I'd gotten to the 1736 Lisbon part in the Kindle sample. (Amazon rec is how I stumbled on it.) I also, and this is kind of crazy, impulse bought a book on the warship that the chronometer was tested on, solely because Google preview didn't have the page with the footnote showing the original source for the discussion of the English fleet and conditions in Lisbon after they arrived. I was joking to my wife that you know you've gone over the top in your fandom when you're impulse buying a biography of a warship! (It was $3.99! It was readable! I couldn't resist!) I might actually read more chapters someday, right now my list is a little long (50% thanks to Selena :P).
LOL! YUP.
Right? :DD
ETA: Oh, and the author says he was the *only* one who said anything negative about it at the meeting. Honestly, I think he would fit in the Engineer Trilogy really well. "This is an abomination! It departs from specification!" Everyone else: "It's amazing!"
That said, because I knew a few things about the astronomical aspects of navigation, and none at all about the engineering problem of chronometers, this book was valuable for that. But I'm very glad I went in with even the little background I did!
Incidentally, her take is that astronomy had more prestige than engineering (legit), and the fact that the longitude problem was hard meant to some people that only a hard solution was acceptable, and so the fact that taking measurements on a ship that moves up and down, having to compensate for your own height plus that of anything you're standing on, looking things up, trying to keep the book dry, etc. were all really hard were a feature rather than a bug. She says that a century or so earlier and Harrison's devices, which incorporated all the calculations into the hardware and made working them out unnecessary (except for taking local time, which I feel like she also downplays), would have been witchcraft! Since it was the 18th century, he was just dismissed as "It couldn't possibly be that easy," and that was why people kept pursuing the astronomical approach.
All of this comes with a big "Maybe these were factors, but I wish I trusted the author more, because I feel like there was more to it." Since like you said,
(since even after Harrison, chronometers were pretty expensive)
Me: Well, I know why I think the longitude problem is interesting, but why does mildred think it's interesting? I don't think it has anything to do with Fr--
Mildred: Now, if you're me, the words "Lisbon with Admiral Norris in 1736" is a magic phrase that means "Peter Keith."
Me: Welp, guess that one's answered!
Hahahahaa, well. It was a major factor in me deciding to buy and read this book after I'd gotten to the 1736 Lisbon part in the Kindle sample. (Amazon rec is how I stumbled on it.) I also, and this is kind of crazy, impulse bought a book on the warship that the chronometer was tested on, solely because Google preview didn't have the page with the footnote showing the original source for the discussion of the English fleet and conditions in Lisbon after they arrived. I was joking to my wife that you know you've gone over the top in your fandom when you're impulse buying a biography of a warship! (It was $3.99! It was readable! I couldn't resist!) I might actually read more chapters someday, right now my list is a little long (50% thanks to Selena :P).
LOL! YUP.
Right? :DD
ETA: Oh, and the author says he was the *only* one who said anything negative about it at the meeting. Honestly, I think he would fit in the Engineer Trilogy really well. "This is an abomination! It departs from specification!" Everyone else: "It's amazing!"
Edited 2021-08-04 14:06 (UTC)
While we're all waiting for the RMSE opening (again), Stabi has delivered two biographies of F1 to me - the Werner Schmidt one from 2004, which is the one his Germman wiki entry footnotes most frequently, and one by Frank Göse from 2012. Frank Göse we already know as the guy who co-edited the FW essays anthology together with Kloosterhuis and who published the latest FW biography (only last year or so). His F1 biography is, like his FW biography, only intermittently chronological and arranged by topics (foreign policy, inner policy, family life etc). Like his FW biography, it's also a bit plodding to read - a great narrator, he's not - but unlike with his FW biography, I'm glad I've read to have read this one, since Werner Schmidt's attitude towards their shared subject is: "F1 is my woobie and I'm his one man defense squad!", so Göse, while also sympathetic to F1, provides a good counterbalance. A good example of how differently they present the same subject comes when we get to the fall of Danckelman.
But mainly I wanted to read these books to look up F1's youth and the other escape attempt by a Crown Prince, well, Kurprinz. And on the youth, Schmidt the woobie defense squad delivers in far more detail than Göse, despite his book being far slimmer. (Their different emphasis is also telling.)
Schmidt: First, have some background to understand where my woobie's Dad is coming from so I won't be accused to be mean about the Great Elector. Once upon a time, there was this really ghastly war, remember? 30 Years? Johann Georg of Brandenburg really wanted to keep out of it, but between having married the Winter King's sister and his sister having married Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, naturally before all went to hell, he really couldn't. With the result that Brandenburg kept being invaded either by Swedes or Imperials. Future Great Elector, whose first names were Friedrich Wilhelm which is just too confusing, soselenak won't mention them again, thus spent seven years as a boy (from 7 to 14) at Küstrin because it was the toughest fortress Prussia had and his parents wanted him to be safe. Then he went to stay with relations in the Netherlands, where he met Louisa Hollandine the painter and daughter of the Winter Queen and romanced her, only it didn't work out because money. Then he came back and unsurprisingly had two major principles once he became the Prince Elector:
a) Brandenburg needs an army of its own so we won't get invaded, devastated and depopulated again.
b) Brandenburg also needs money.
He married the (rich) Dutch princess Louise Henriette of Orange whom Oranienburg the palace is named after and who gave him four sons. The first one died as a kid. Then came Karl Emil, who looked like the ideal Prussian prince - healthy, jolly, loves sports and playing war Then came Friedrich, future F1, who wasn't only sickly, no, his nurse managed to drop him during a carriage drive, with the result that future F1 ended up with both feet turned inwards and a curved spinal (is this the right expression in English?). None one thought he'd live long, except for his mother, who fought for him. (More details to come.) Unfortunately, fighting for future F1 also meant subjecting him to an endless series of medical tortures, iron corsets, getting pressed between weights to correct his spine and feet, until one Dr. Fey put an end to it and said the weight pressures especially were probably responsible for F1's asthma or at least it being so bad and could kill the kid.
Future F1 remained the youngest until his brother Ludwig was born. Now, for as long as his mother and older brother Karl Emil were still alive, he had affection to balance the medical tortures and some aspects of the teaching. The teaching parts are interesting for many reasons. Like future Prussian rulers after him, the Great Elector wrote a "how to handle the princes" instructions to his sons' governor. There are things in common with FW's lists, to wit, the religion - the Elector, too, wanted his sons to be raised as good Christians, start the day with praying etc. -, but there's a very different approach to art and sciences. The Elector wanted his sons to learn Latin, for example, but in a way that wouldn't make them hate the language, so the teacher was to be playful about it and also use it in conversation as often as possible. (French, too, but that's what the princess, including future F1, had a governess for. Unlike FW, though, F1's first language was German.) And with geography, the princes were supposed to learn the names of towns and countries etc. in a non-dull manner by the teacher attaching interesting stories to them so they memorize them better. All pretty fly for a 17th century guy!
These were the instructions for Karl Emil and F1 both. Karl Emil still hated school, but he wrote a lovely letter to his brother when being hunting. Practice your German on this baroque letter opening:
"Herzallerliebstes Brüderchen,
weil Ihr bei Eurer grossen Glückseligkeit da Ihr alllzeit bei Papa und Mama seit, meiner ganz vergesset, so will ich hiermit beweisen, dass ich fleissig an Euch gedenke. Ich hoffe, mein Herzensbrüderchen bald wieder zu sehen."
Future F1's teacher was one Eberhard Danckelmann. (Later to be ennobled into "von Danckelmann".) He was a proto Prussian two generations before FW - austere, dutiful, into discipline. A genuine prodigy - he'd debated and defended his thesis at 12 years old at a university! - but extremely shouty, and the first time F1's mother Louise Henriette noticed this, she wrote a letter in protest, that "Fritzchen" surely would be better guided by kindness than by verbal abuse. Whereupon Danckelmann was a bit quieter but still did things like this bit of German-to-Latin translation exercise for F1, of which there is a copy of the manuscript in child!F1's handwriting in the book:
Baroque German: "Mein Bruder und ich wollen gelehrte Printzen werden. Aber Fritz wird ein Esel bleiben."
Latin: "Frater et ego volumus fieri docti Principes. Sed Fridericus manebit Asinus."
Werner Schmidt: Pray keep this in mind when we get to the fate of Danckelmann a few decades later! At age 10, my woobie makes a fateful discovery when deciding he'll found an order "De la generosité". His governor (a member of the Schwerin clan at this point, Danckelmann was his teacher, different thing) lets him play this out. Little F1 discovers that the play acting as a gracious ruler, the ceremony, the investing, that all this makes him feel good and not like damaged goods for the first time! Not that his bitchy grandson shows any understanding for this. FYI, F2, your precious Black Eagle Order grew directly from this childhood Order de La Generosité.
But back to a tale of childhood woe, which is about to kick in in earnest. Because his mother dies, only one of two persons to love my hero truly and unconditionally. According to an eyewitness, ten years old F1 when told his mother was dying "cried out terribly, and hung from the Stewardess' neck and begged for for God's sake she should save everything and make it so his Mama did not die!" But she does, with her body exhausted after giving birth or having stillbirths nearly every other year. And then the Great Elector remarries. A woman who wasn't a poisoner, I don't think that, but she was without any sensitivity or sympathy for the stepkids and...
Frank Göse: Let me stop you right here. She wasn't that bad. Before her own kids were born, she wrote downright lovely letters to little future F1, calling him "Engelchen" and "Fritzchen". True, once she had kids of her own, she didn't do that anymore, but you yourself point out that every mother fights for her children, and when the late Electress got future F1, she immediately persuaded the Elector that he'd get a life long rent and a county of his own so his financial future was assured despite him being a third son. Dorothea followed the same principle for her kids.
Werner Schmidt: The only women I approve of unconditionally in this book are F1's mother and his first wife, who loved him unconditionally. Be content I don't think Dorothea the founder of the Schwedt line was a poisoner. Anyway, back to young F1's woes: Karl Emil dies next. This is a devastating blow for Dad, who until this point hasn't singled F1 out for anything but hasn't done anything against him, either. It's not too much to say, though, that after Karl Emil's death, the Great Elector will treat my guy as if it needs to be made clear the wrong brother died. Think that I'm exaggarating? Lemme quote the French ambassador.
Background here: The Elector had won some key battles against the French as part of the anti Sun King team up only for the Habsburgs to screw him over by making peace with Louis XIV without asking him to the negotiations. He then screwed over the Habsburgs by making his own secret treaty with Louis in which he promised that he'd vote for Louis or Louis' son the Dauphin the next time an HRE Emperor got voted hin, and that he'd make Louis executor of his last will. This team up with the French went on until Louis kicked the Huguenots out of France, at which point the Elector, champion of Protestants, couldn't stand by it anymore and changed his policy. But because grandson F2 as well as subsequent historians for two centuries accused my guy F1 of falling short of his Dad, let me point out the Great Elector made a completely bad treaty with the goddam French here, and wasn't the mastermind Hohenzollern historians insisted he was.
Anyway: the French were also hand in glove with Stepmom and her campaign to get her sons as big a portion of the Electorate as possible. Bear in mind primogeniture wasn't yet a fixture in all the German principalities, and Stepmom campaigned for dividing the realm the old fashioned way among all the sons. The French were all for it, since Louis hadn't forgotten the Elector had won that battle and many tiny Brandenburg pieces sounded better than an increasingly larger one. Future F1, now the Kurprinz (Prince Elector) instead of Karl Emil, otoh, thought this was a bad idea and got increasingly distrustful about Dad changing his will. Rébenac, the French envoy who was on Team Dorothea for the above named reason, wrote thus reports like this to Louis in France:
The Prince, Sire, has a very damaged figure, is of a weak constitution and doesn't show much will to live; a doctor has said he'll only live for three or four years more. He's of a weak mind, a hypocrite and very miserly, of little noblesse; and if he has the wish to enlarge his realm, then only in order to fill his purse with more cash, which is his only ambition. He lets himself be ruled by a man named Danckelmann who used to be his teacher, a feeble mind who is teaching his master hypocricy and hatred towards some of his father's ministers. (...) The Elector does not love him, nor does he esteem him. (...) A man from Sweden told the Elector unguardedly that the King of Sweden - against whom the Elector had fought and won battles - says he'll let the Elector of Brandenburg die in peace but that he'll make the Elector's son pay. The Elector himself told me this and added: "The King of Sweden is right; for my son isn't good for anything."
Objectivity, thy name is not Rébenac. More like "Wishful thinking". But while posterity can point out the obvious mistakes here at once (F1 would live on some decades more, he wouldn't get crushed by Sweden, and miserliness isn't a fault he's ever been accused of by posterity), the quote from the Elector about his son has the ring of authenticity to Werner Schmidt and Frank Göse alike.
Meanwhile, young future F1 had one good thing going in his life. As a child and youth, he'd been sent to take the waters in the principality of Hessen-Kassel every year (because the Elector's mother had been from there). There, he'd struck up a childhood friendship with the Hessian princess Elisabeth Henriette, nicknamed Hanette. (There's a letter from child!F1 to her mother thanking the mother for the hospitality and saying all the other Hessian princesses can be married of as long as "the one I love" stays.) And once little Hanette, five years younger than him, was of marriagable age, "weak" F1 lobbied for permission to marry her with both sets of (surviving) parents - and actually managed to pull it off. Thus, he achieved that rarity in the era, a mutual love match between friends. He also got a household of his own granted, in Köpenick (there's a Fontane chapter from the Wanderungen on his and Hanette's time there.) Mind you, the Elector behaved very badly and grumpily about the marriage, making it as insulting to the Hessen-Kassel family as possible by for eons refusing to name a date and then cancelling one agreed on and then, one morning while in bed with his wife, deciding this evening the marriage would happen without a fuss and no ceremony since Hanette was already in town. Young F1 put up with it and hightailed it out of Berlin with Hanette as soon as possible.
Werner Schmidt: But because that's the way his life goes, nothing good ever lasts long. Hanette gives birth to a daughter - his only daughter, as it would happen - and dies after just a few years. And that was the last person to ever truly love my guy. By this comment you may gather I don't like Sophie Charlotte, aka Figuelotte. Who was just like her grandson Fritz: a sarcastic, cold-hearted bitch unable to resist a witty quip no matter how hurtful, with an intellectual superiority complex. Granted, she started out not as bad as that at age 16, which is when she became still not yet F1's second wife. I'll quote Sophie her mother (about whom I'm a bit more positive right until two decades later she makes a sarcastic remark about F1 and his ministers, at which point I'll say she's just like her daughter, because I am A One Man Defense Squad) who writes to one of Liselotte's sisters:
She's not cruel, either, and he's always shown amiability and esteem towards her when her Highness the Princess Elector had still been alive and nobody would have imagined this possibility.
The Kurprinz isn't a handsome man in his figure, but he has a very good temper, and sound reason, and his face isn't ugly; it's a good thing she does like him and doesn't care about the exterior so much, for his highness the Duke and I love her so much that we could follow her own inclination if she'd chosen another suitor.
(As mentioned in the Barbara Beuys biography, future F1 & wife had visited Hannover, and he'd taken to the entire clan like a duck to water.)
Because Figuelotte is a princess of Hannover and has a mother who is quite up to standing toe to toe with the Elector, she gets a proper princely wedding. This does not mean relations between the Elector and his oldest surviving son improve.
But mainly I wanted to read these books to look up F1's youth and the other escape attempt by a Crown Prince, well, Kurprinz. And on the youth, Schmidt the woobie defense squad delivers in far more detail than Göse, despite his book being far slimmer. (Their different emphasis is also telling.)
Schmidt: First, have some background to understand where my woobie's Dad is coming from so I won't be accused to be mean about the Great Elector. Once upon a time, there was this really ghastly war, remember? 30 Years? Johann Georg of Brandenburg really wanted to keep out of it, but between having married the Winter King's sister and his sister having married Gustavus Adolphus of Sweden, naturally before all went to hell, he really couldn't. With the result that Brandenburg kept being invaded either by Swedes or Imperials. Future Great Elector, whose first names were Friedrich Wilhelm which is just too confusing, so
selenak won't mention them again, thus spent seven years as a boy (from 7 to 14) at Küstrin because it was the toughest fortress Prussia had and his parents wanted him to be safe. Then he went to stay with relations in the Netherlands, where he met Louisa Hollandine the painter and daughter of the Winter Queen and romanced her, only it didn't work out because money. Then he came back and unsurprisingly had two major principles once he became the Prince Elector: a) Brandenburg needs an army of its own so we won't get invaded, devastated and depopulated again.
b) Brandenburg also needs money.
He married the (rich) Dutch princess Louise Henriette of Orange whom Oranienburg the palace is named after and who gave him four sons. The first one died as a kid. Then came Karl Emil, who looked like the ideal Prussian prince - healthy, jolly, loves sports and playing war Then came Friedrich, future F1, who wasn't only sickly, no, his nurse managed to drop him during a carriage drive, with the result that future F1 ended up with both feet turned inwards and a curved spinal (is this the right expression in English?). None one thought he'd live long, except for his mother, who fought for him. (More details to come.) Unfortunately, fighting for future F1 also meant subjecting him to an endless series of medical tortures, iron corsets, getting pressed between weights to correct his spine and feet, until one Dr. Fey put an end to it and said the weight pressures especially were probably responsible for F1's asthma or at least it being so bad and could kill the kid.
Future F1 remained the youngest until his brother Ludwig was born. Now, for as long as his mother and older brother Karl Emil were still alive, he had affection to balance the medical tortures and some aspects of the teaching. The teaching parts are interesting for many reasons. Like future Prussian rulers after him, the Great Elector wrote a "how to handle the princes" instructions to his sons' governor. There are things in common with FW's lists, to wit, the religion - the Elector, too, wanted his sons to be raised as good Christians, start the day with praying etc. -, but there's a very different approach to art and sciences. The Elector wanted his sons to learn Latin, for example, but in a way that wouldn't make them hate the language, so the teacher was to be playful about it and also use it in conversation as often as possible. (French, too, but that's what the princess, including future F1, had a governess for. Unlike FW, though, F1's first language was German.) And with geography, the princes were supposed to learn the names of towns and countries etc. in a non-dull manner by the teacher attaching interesting stories to them so they memorize them better. All pretty fly for a 17th century guy!
These were the instructions for Karl Emil and F1 both. Karl Emil still hated school, but he wrote a lovely letter to his brother when being hunting. Practice your German on this baroque letter opening:
"Herzallerliebstes Brüderchen,
weil Ihr bei Eurer grossen Glückseligkeit da Ihr alllzeit bei Papa und Mama seit, meiner ganz vergesset, so will ich hiermit beweisen, dass ich fleissig an Euch gedenke. Ich hoffe, mein Herzensbrüderchen bald wieder zu sehen."
Future F1's teacher was one Eberhard Danckelmann. (Later to be ennobled into "von Danckelmann".) He was a proto Prussian two generations before FW - austere, dutiful, into discipline. A genuine prodigy - he'd debated and defended his thesis at 12 years old at a university! - but extremely shouty, and the first time F1's mother Louise Henriette noticed this, she wrote a letter in protest, that "Fritzchen" surely would be better guided by kindness than by verbal abuse. Whereupon Danckelmann was a bit quieter but still did things like this bit of German-to-Latin translation exercise for F1, of which there is a copy of the manuscript in child!F1's handwriting in the book:
Baroque German: "Mein Bruder und ich wollen gelehrte Printzen werden. Aber Fritz wird ein Esel bleiben."
Latin: "Frater et ego volumus fieri docti Principes. Sed Fridericus manebit Asinus."
Werner Schmidt: Pray keep this in mind when we get to the fate of Danckelmann a few decades later! At age 10, my woobie makes a fateful discovery when deciding he'll found an order "De la generosité". His governor (a member of the Schwerin clan at this point, Danckelmann was his teacher, different thing) lets him play this out. Little F1 discovers that the play acting as a gracious ruler, the ceremony, the investing, that all this makes him feel good and not like damaged goods for the first time! Not that his bitchy grandson shows any understanding for this. FYI, F2, your precious Black Eagle Order grew directly from this childhood Order de La Generosité.
But back to a tale of childhood woe, which is about to kick in in earnest. Because his mother dies, only one of two persons to love my hero truly and unconditionally. According to an eyewitness, ten years old F1 when told his mother was dying "cried out terribly, and hung from the Stewardess' neck and begged for for God's sake she should save everything and make it so his Mama did not die!" But she does, with her body exhausted after giving birth or having stillbirths nearly every other year. And then the Great Elector remarries. A woman who wasn't a poisoner, I don't think that, but she was without any sensitivity or sympathy for the stepkids and...
Frank Göse: Let me stop you right here. She wasn't that bad. Before her own kids were born, she wrote downright lovely letters to little future F1, calling him "Engelchen" and "Fritzchen". True, once she had kids of her own, she didn't do that anymore, but you yourself point out that every mother fights for her children, and when the late Electress got future F1, she immediately persuaded the Elector that he'd get a life long rent and a county of his own so his financial future was assured despite him being a third son. Dorothea followed the same principle for her kids.
Werner Schmidt: The only women I approve of unconditionally in this book are F1's mother and his first wife, who loved him unconditionally. Be content I don't think Dorothea the founder of the Schwedt line was a poisoner. Anyway, back to young F1's woes: Karl Emil dies next. This is a devastating blow for Dad, who until this point hasn't singled F1 out for anything but hasn't done anything against him, either. It's not too much to say, though, that after Karl Emil's death, the Great Elector will treat my guy as if it needs to be made clear the wrong brother died. Think that I'm exaggarating? Lemme quote the French ambassador.
Background here: The Elector had won some key battles against the French as part of the anti Sun King team up only for the Habsburgs to screw him over by making peace with Louis XIV without asking him to the negotiations. He then screwed over the Habsburgs by making his own secret treaty with Louis in which he promised that he'd vote for Louis or Louis' son the Dauphin the next time an HRE Emperor got voted hin, and that he'd make Louis executor of his last will. This team up with the French went on until Louis kicked the Huguenots out of France, at which point the Elector, champion of Protestants, couldn't stand by it anymore and changed his policy. But because grandson F2 as well as subsequent historians for two centuries accused my guy F1 of falling short of his Dad, let me point out the Great Elector made a completely bad treaty with the goddam French here, and wasn't the mastermind Hohenzollern historians insisted he was.
Anyway: the French were also hand in glove with Stepmom and her campaign to get her sons as big a portion of the Electorate as possible. Bear in mind primogeniture wasn't yet a fixture in all the German principalities, and Stepmom campaigned for dividing the realm the old fashioned way among all the sons. The French were all for it, since Louis hadn't forgotten the Elector had won that battle and many tiny Brandenburg pieces sounded better than an increasingly larger one. Future F1, now the Kurprinz (Prince Elector) instead of Karl Emil, otoh, thought this was a bad idea and got increasingly distrustful about Dad changing his will. Rébenac, the French envoy who was on Team Dorothea for the above named reason, wrote thus reports like this to Louis in France:
The Prince, Sire, has a very damaged figure, is of a weak constitution and doesn't show much will to live; a doctor has said he'll only live for three or four years more. He's of a weak mind, a hypocrite and very miserly, of little noblesse; and if he has the wish to enlarge his realm, then only in order to fill his purse with more cash, which is his only ambition. He lets himself be ruled by a man named Danckelmann who used to be his teacher, a feeble mind who is teaching his master hypocricy and hatred towards some of his father's ministers. (...) The Elector does not love him, nor does he esteem him. (...) A man from Sweden told the Elector unguardedly that the King of Sweden - against whom the Elector had fought and won battles - says he'll let the Elector of Brandenburg die in peace but that he'll make the Elector's son pay. The Elector himself told me this and added: "The King of Sweden is right; for my son isn't good for anything."
Objectivity, thy name is not Rébenac. More like "Wishful thinking". But while posterity can point out the obvious mistakes here at once (F1 would live on some decades more, he wouldn't get crushed by Sweden, and miserliness isn't a fault he's ever been accused of by posterity), the quote from the Elector about his son has the ring of authenticity to Werner Schmidt and Frank Göse alike.
Meanwhile, young future F1 had one good thing going in his life. As a child and youth, he'd been sent to take the waters in the principality of Hessen-Kassel every year (because the Elector's mother had been from there). There, he'd struck up a childhood friendship with the Hessian princess Elisabeth Henriette, nicknamed Hanette. (There's a letter from child!F1 to her mother thanking the mother for the hospitality and saying all the other Hessian princesses can be married of as long as "the one I love" stays.) And once little Hanette, five years younger than him, was of marriagable age, "weak" F1 lobbied for permission to marry her with both sets of (surviving) parents - and actually managed to pull it off. Thus, he achieved that rarity in the era, a mutual love match between friends. He also got a household of his own granted, in Köpenick (there's a Fontane chapter from the Wanderungen on his and Hanette's time there.) Mind you, the Elector behaved very badly and grumpily about the marriage, making it as insulting to the Hessen-Kassel family as possible by for eons refusing to name a date and then cancelling one agreed on and then, one morning while in bed with his wife, deciding this evening the marriage would happen without a fuss and no ceremony since Hanette was already in town. Young F1 put up with it and hightailed it out of Berlin with Hanette as soon as possible.
Werner Schmidt: But because that's the way his life goes, nothing good ever lasts long. Hanette gives birth to a daughter - his only daughter, as it would happen - and dies after just a few years. And that was the last person to ever truly love my guy. By this comment you may gather I don't like Sophie Charlotte, aka Figuelotte. Who was just like her grandson Fritz: a sarcastic, cold-hearted bitch unable to resist a witty quip no matter how hurtful, with an intellectual superiority complex. Granted, she started out not as bad as that at age 16, which is when she became still not yet F1's second wife. I'll quote Sophie her mother (about whom I'm a bit more positive right until two decades later she makes a sarcastic remark about F1 and his ministers, at which point I'll say she's just like her daughter, because I am A One Man Defense Squad) who writes to one of Liselotte's sisters:
She's not cruel, either, and he's always shown amiability and esteem towards her when her Highness the Princess Elector had still been alive and nobody would have imagined this possibility.
The Kurprinz isn't a handsome man in his figure, but he has a very good temper, and sound reason, and his face isn't ugly; it's a good thing she does like him and doesn't care about the exterior so much, for his highness the Duke and I love her so much that we could follow her own inclination if she'd chosen another suitor.
(As mentioned in the Barbara Beuys biography, future F1 & wife had visited Hannover, and he'd taken to the entire clan like a duck to water.)
Because Figuelotte is a princess of Hannover and has a mother who is quite up to standing toe to toe with the Elector, she gets a proper princely wedding. This does not mean relations between the Elector and his oldest surviving son improve.
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: Portrait of F1 as a Young Woobie
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-04 01:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Between meetings and RMSE opening (while I'm in a meeting!), I will not have time to properly read and reply today, but I've skimmed and am chuffed and grateful that you took me up on my suggestion to read and report on an F1 biography!
Also, I did read the German (and Latin) without looking anything up, yay. Still consciously having to concentrate and translate, though.
More when time!
I am A One Man Defense Squad
LOL, I love your way with words. And this is exactly why it's so important to get multiple perspectives on the same events.
Also, I did read the German (and Latin) without looking anything up, yay. Still consciously having to concentrate and translate, though.
More when time!
I am A One Man Defense Squad
LOL, I love your way with words. And this is exactly why it's so important to get multiple perspectives on the same events.
Very informative and highly entertaining write-up. The one man woobie defense squad, I'm amused. (First published in 1996 by the way, so pre-Euro indeed.)
until one Dr. Fey put an end to it
Well, thank God for that. And I mean, woobie or not, poor kid indeed.
"Herzallerliebstes Brüderchen,
weil Ihr bei Eurer grossen Glückseligkeit da Ihr alllzeit bei Papa und Mama seit, meiner ganz vergesset, so will ich hiermit beweisen, dass ich fleissig an Euch gedenke. Ich hoffe, mein Herzensbrüderchen bald wieder zu sehen."
Awww.
Rébenac, the French envoy who was on Team Dorothea for the above named reason
Aha! See, when the author of the Schwedt book wrote that the French envoy had no horse in this race and therefore his reports could be taken at face value (i.e. clearly F1 and the scheming Sophies were at fault for most of the falling out), I was pretty sure that this couldn't possibly be true and that the French must have had their own agenda here, but of course I didn't know about the details you just gave us. Nice.
"The King of Sweden is right; for my son isn't good for anything."
Well, if that doesn't sound like history repeating...
until one Dr. Fey put an end to it
Well, thank God for that. And I mean, woobie or not, poor kid indeed.
"Herzallerliebstes Brüderchen,
weil Ihr bei Eurer grossen Glückseligkeit da Ihr alllzeit bei Papa und Mama seit, meiner ganz vergesset, so will ich hiermit beweisen, dass ich fleissig an Euch gedenke. Ich hoffe, mein Herzensbrüderchen bald wieder zu sehen."
Awww.
Rébenac, the French envoy who was on Team Dorothea for the above named reason
Aha! See, when the author of the Schwedt book wrote that the French envoy had no horse in this race and therefore his reports could be taken at face value (i.e. clearly F1 and the scheming Sophies were at fault for most of the falling out), I was pretty sure that this couldn't possibly be true and that the French must have had their own agenda here, but of course I didn't know about the details you just gave us. Nice.
"The King of Sweden is right; for my son isn't good for anything."
Well, if that doesn't sound like history repeating...
Well, thank God for that. And I mean, woobie or not, poor kid indeed.
Quite. It's pretty guesome to read all the methods tried on him. No doubt everyone meant well, but good lord. It would be the perfect origin story for a supervillain instead of a royal who when all things were said and done was neither the worst nor the best of his time and seems to have been an okay, non-abusive human being.
The Karl Emil to F1 letter is adorable, isn't it? I also note that "Herzallerliebst" and or "Herzlieb" seems to be a baroque sibling thing, since Liselotte to her fave half brother also writes "Herzliebster Carl-Lutz".
the author of the Schwedt book wrote that the French envoy had no horse in this race
LOL. Even accounting for Werner Schmidt's own bias - he keeps comparing Louis and his envoy with Moliere's Tartuffe, for example - , he does provide more than enough background and quotes to demonstrate what the stakes for the French were. BTW, he also does make his case that the Elector's military victory against Louis was a Pyrrhic kind of victory since the follow up secret treaty was so much more good for France. I mean: if you were a European prince, specifically a German prince, who has already witnessed Louis invading the Palatinate under the flimsy pretext of protecting his sister-in-law's rights (which she was horrified about), and saw Louis about to put his grandkid on the Spanish throne, would YOU risk making freaking Louis the executor of your last will? (Promising to vote for him in the next HRE elections I get. That's more a fuck you gesture to the Habsburgs than anything else, since there was no way at this point the rest of the electors would vote for Louis.)
Well, if that doesn't sound like history repeating...
Alas. The really weird thing in the chain of Hohenzollern dysfunction is really that F1 & FW are the outliers there, and then with FW & Fritz, Fritz & FW2 etc. we're back to the pattern.
Quite. It's pretty guesome to read all the methods tried on him. No doubt everyone meant well, but good lord. It would be the perfect origin story for a supervillain instead of a royal who when all things were said and done was neither the worst nor the best of his time and seems to have been an okay, non-abusive human being.
The Karl Emil to F1 letter is adorable, isn't it? I also note that "Herzallerliebst" and or "Herzlieb" seems to be a baroque sibling thing, since Liselotte to her fave half brother also writes "Herzliebster Carl-Lutz".
the author of the Schwedt book wrote that the French envoy had no horse in this race
LOL. Even accounting for Werner Schmidt's own bias - he keeps comparing Louis and his envoy with Moliere's Tartuffe, for example - , he does provide more than enough background and quotes to demonstrate what the stakes for the French were. BTW, he also does make his case that the Elector's military victory against Louis was a Pyrrhic kind of victory since the follow up secret treaty was so much more good for France. I mean: if you were a European prince, specifically a German prince, who has already witnessed Louis invading the Palatinate under the flimsy pretext of protecting his sister-in-law's rights (which she was horrified about), and saw Louis about to put his grandkid on the Spanish throne, would YOU risk making freaking Louis the executor of your last will? (Promising to vote for him in the next HRE elections I get. That's more a fuck you gesture to the Habsburgs than anything else, since there was no way at this point the rest of the electors would vote for Louis.)
Well, if that doesn't sound like history repeating...
Alas. The really weird thing in the chain of Hohenzollern dysfunction is really that F1 & FW are the outliers there, and then with FW & Fritz, Fritz & FW2 etc. we're back to the pattern.
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: Portrait of F1 as a Young Woobie
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-07 04:06 pm (UTC)(link)
The really weird thing in the chain of Hohenzollern dysfunction is really that F1 & FW are the outliers there, and then with FW & Fritz, Fritz & FW2 etc. we're back to the pattern.
And also how F1 manages to be a decent dad despite not having had one, and FW manages to be the Worst of All Possible Dads despite having had one! Everything being part nature, part nurture, makes humans really complicated.
Also, therapy for everyone.
And also how F1 manages to be a decent dad despite not having had one, and FW manages to be the Worst of All Possible Dads despite having had one! Everything being part nature, part nurture, makes humans really complicated.
Also, therapy for everyone.
Alas. The really weird thing in the chain of Hohenzollern dysfunction is really that F1 & FW are the outliers there, and then with FW & Fritz, Fritz & FW2 etc. we're back to the pattern.
Yes this! :(
Yes this! :(
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: Portrait of F1 as a Young Woobie
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-07 04:03 pm (UTC)(link)
since Werner Schmidt's attitude towards their shared subject is: "F1 is my woobie and I'm his one man defense squad!", so Göse, while also sympathetic to F1, provides a good counterbalance.
At first I was glad you got both books for the balance, but then I was super impressed by how you put them in dialogue with each other!
But mainly I wanted to read these books to look up F1's youth and the other escape attempt by a Crown Prince, well, Kurprinz.
And delighted I am that you did! Because I've been curious.
a) Brandenburg needs an army of its own so we won't get invaded, devastated and depopulated again.
b) Brandenburg also needs money.
#HohenzollernPriorities
Then came Karl Emil, who looked like the ideal Prussian prince - healthy, jolly, loves sports and playing war
The original Karl Emil! (Don't name your kid Karl Emil is what I learned.)
Then came Friedrich, future F1, who wasn't only sickly, no, his nurse managed to drop him during a carriage drive, with the result that future F1 ended up with both feet turned inwards and a curved spinal
Omggg, poor baby, and in the 17th century, too. :(((
Lehndorff: *fistbump of solidarity*
a curved spinal (is this the right expression in English?)
I would say "a curved spine" if I were being casual, and "spinal curvature" if I were being more technical. For really technical terms, "scoliosis" if it's curvature to the side, "kyphosis" if it's curvature forward. "A curved spinal" isn't grammatical English, no.
Unfortunately, fighting for future F1 also meant subjecting him to an endless series of medical tortures, iron corsets, getting pressed between weights to correct his spine and feet, until one Dr. Fey put an end to it and said the weight pressures especially were probably responsible for F1's asthma or at least it being so bad and could kill the kid.
OMGGG, yes, no, don't do that! Poor F1 and poor Lehndorff!
All pretty fly for a 17th century guy!
No kidding!
"Herzallerliebstes Brüderchen,
weil Ihr bei Eurer grossen Glückseligkeit da Ihr alllzeit bei Papa und Mama seit, meiner ganz vergesset, so will ich hiermit beweisen, dass ich fleissig an Euch gedenke. Ich hoffe, mein Herzensbrüderchen bald wieder zu sehen."
Awww. <3
but extremely shouty, and the first time F1's mother Louise Henriette noticed this, she wrote a letter in protest, that "Fritzchen" surely would be better guided by kindness than by verbal abuse.
See, SOME people, like Sonsine, had figured this out even centuries ago! SOME people still haven't figured it out even today. :(
Whereupon Danckelmann was a bit quieter but still did things like this bit of German-to-Latin translation exercise for F1, of which there is a copy of the manuscript in child!F1's handwriting in the book:
Baroque German: "Mein Bruder und ich wollen gelehrte Printzen werden. Aber Fritz wird ein Esel bleiben."
Latin: "Frater et ego volumus fieri docti Principes. Sed Fridericus manebit Asinus."
SO MUCH HATE.
Not that his bitchy grandson shows any understanding for this. FYI, F2, your precious Black Eagle Order grew directly from this childhood Order de La Generosité.
Lol, enjoying the F2 counter-vendetta. :D
"cried out terribly, and hung from the Stewardess' neck and begged for for God's sake she should save everything and make it so his Mama did not die!"
AWWWW. And once little Hanette, five years younger than him, was of marriagable age, "weak" F1 lobbied for permission to marry her with both sets of (surviving) parents - and actually managed to pull it off.
Good for him! I'm glad something went right (at least temporarily).
Werner Schmidt: The only women I approve of unconditionally in this book are F1's mother and his first wife, who loved him unconditionally. Be content I don't think Dorothea the founder of the Schwedt line was a poisoner.
LOVING the dialogue!
"The King of Sweden is right; for my son isn't good for anything."
HOHENZOLLERN DADS OMG WTF
about whom I'm a bit more positive right until two decades later she makes a sarcastic remark about F1 and his ministers, at which point I'll say she's just like her daughter, because I am A One Man Defense Squad
LOLOLOL
At first I was glad you got both books for the balance, but then I was super impressed by how you put them in dialogue with each other!
But mainly I wanted to read these books to look up F1's youth and the other escape attempt by a Crown Prince, well, Kurprinz.
And delighted I am that you did! Because I've been curious.
a) Brandenburg needs an army of its own so we won't get invaded, devastated and depopulated again.
b) Brandenburg also needs money.
#HohenzollernPriorities
Then came Karl Emil, who looked like the ideal Prussian prince - healthy, jolly, loves sports and playing war
The original Karl Emil! (Don't name your kid Karl Emil is what I learned.)
Then came Friedrich, future F1, who wasn't only sickly, no, his nurse managed to drop him during a carriage drive, with the result that future F1 ended up with both feet turned inwards and a curved spinal
Omggg, poor baby, and in the 17th century, too. :(((
Lehndorff: *fistbump of solidarity*
a curved spinal (is this the right expression in English?)
I would say "a curved spine" if I were being casual, and "spinal curvature" if I were being more technical. For really technical terms, "scoliosis" if it's curvature to the side, "kyphosis" if it's curvature forward. "A curved spinal" isn't grammatical English, no.
Unfortunately, fighting for future F1 also meant subjecting him to an endless series of medical tortures, iron corsets, getting pressed between weights to correct his spine and feet, until one Dr. Fey put an end to it and said the weight pressures especially were probably responsible for F1's asthma or at least it being so bad and could kill the kid.
OMGGG, yes, no, don't do that! Poor F1 and poor Lehndorff!
All pretty fly for a 17th century guy!
No kidding!
"Herzallerliebstes Brüderchen,
weil Ihr bei Eurer grossen Glückseligkeit da Ihr alllzeit bei Papa und Mama seit, meiner ganz vergesset, so will ich hiermit beweisen, dass ich fleissig an Euch gedenke. Ich hoffe, mein Herzensbrüderchen bald wieder zu sehen."
Awww. <3
but extremely shouty, and the first time F1's mother Louise Henriette noticed this, she wrote a letter in protest, that "Fritzchen" surely would be better guided by kindness than by verbal abuse.
See, SOME people, like Sonsine, had figured this out even centuries ago! SOME people still haven't figured it out even today. :(
Whereupon Danckelmann was a bit quieter but still did things like this bit of German-to-Latin translation exercise for F1, of which there is a copy of the manuscript in child!F1's handwriting in the book:
Baroque German: "Mein Bruder und ich wollen gelehrte Printzen werden. Aber Fritz wird ein Esel bleiben."
Latin: "Frater et ego volumus fieri docti Principes. Sed Fridericus manebit Asinus."
SO MUCH HATE.
Not that his bitchy grandson shows any understanding for this. FYI, F2, your precious Black Eagle Order grew directly from this childhood Order de La Generosité.
Lol, enjoying the F2 counter-vendetta. :D
"cried out terribly, and hung from the Stewardess' neck and begged for for God's sake she should save everything and make it so his Mama did not die!"
AWWWW. And once little Hanette, five years younger than him, was of marriagable age, "weak" F1 lobbied for permission to marry her with both sets of (surviving) parents - and actually managed to pull it off.
Good for him! I'm glad something went right (at least temporarily).
Werner Schmidt: The only women I approve of unconditionally in this book are F1's mother and his first wife, who loved him unconditionally. Be content I don't think Dorothea the founder of the Schwedt line was a poisoner.
LOVING the dialogue!
"The King of Sweden is right; for my son isn't good for anything."
HOHENZOLLERN DADS OMG WTF
about whom I'm a bit more positive right until two decades later she makes a sarcastic remark about F1 and his ministers, at which point I'll say she's just like her daughter, because I am A One Man Defense Squad
LOLOLOL
The original Karl Emil! (Don't name your kid Karl Emil is what I learned.)
Clearly! I guess at some point I'll have to read Jürgen Luh's big new biography of the Elector to find out why he did in the first place, given it's such a non-Hohenzollerian name...
Lehndorff: *fistbump of solidarity*
I thought of Lehndorff repeatedly when reading about all the ways they tried to correct F1's bones. At least Lehndorff's back was okay and he didn't get weights of iron on his breast?
See, SOME people, like Sonsine, had figured this out even centuries ago! SOME people still haven't figured it out even today. :(
Here's the letter Louise Henriette wrote on Christmas Day 1666 to future F1's governor Schwerin:
Monsieur, it is also necessary for me to tell you that ther are people who reported to me that Monsieur Danckelmann fiercely attacks Fritzchen during his studies - rudoyoit fort, Schmidt says, is the original expression the Electress used - people who have heard it themselves. I must admit that this is something extremely repellent to me. (...)It could damage his health and his soul. I ask you not to permit it any longer and to signal to (Danckelmann) that this does not please me. I believe his intentions to be good, that he wants (F1) to learn much. But (F1) knows enough for his age, and gentleness is the best methods to win children (douceur est la meilleur méthode pour gagner les enfants).
SO MUCH HATE.
I know. When I read it, I thought: if you're THAT kind of a jerk, Danckelmann, I won't feel sorry at all when you fall.
The Severus Snape method of teaching: only entertaining to read about in fiction. Now Danckelmann, like Snape, had positives going for him - he was a tireless worker dedicated to the state, and there's a reason why him falling from power and Wartenberg gaining it was regarded as such a disaster for centuries. Undoubtedly, too, the trial and the ensueing prison sentence was unfair. But nothing I've read about him made me think he should have been a teacher. (If he was a prodigy able to defend a thesis at university level at 12, undoubtedly little F1 appeared slow to him by comparison.)
HOHENZOLLERN DADS OMG WTF
The Three Georges of Britain and Hanover: Why? This was certainly the most normal thing ever to state about a son. We all said this about our eldest!
Clearly! I guess at some point I'll have to read Jürgen Luh's big new biography of the Elector to find out why he did in the first place, given it's such a non-Hohenzollerian name...
Lehndorff: *fistbump of solidarity*
I thought of Lehndorff repeatedly when reading about all the ways they tried to correct F1's bones. At least Lehndorff's back was okay and he didn't get weights of iron on his breast?
See, SOME people, like Sonsine, had figured this out even centuries ago! SOME people still haven't figured it out even today. :(
Here's the letter Louise Henriette wrote on Christmas Day 1666 to future F1's governor Schwerin:
Monsieur, it is also necessary for me to tell you that ther are people who reported to me that Monsieur Danckelmann fiercely attacks Fritzchen during his studies - rudoyoit fort, Schmidt says, is the original expression the Electress used - people who have heard it themselves. I must admit that this is something extremely repellent to me. (...)It could damage his health and his soul. I ask you not to permit it any longer and to signal to (Danckelmann) that this does not please me. I believe his intentions to be good, that he wants (F1) to learn much. But (F1) knows enough for his age, and gentleness is the best methods to win children (douceur est la meilleur méthode pour gagner les enfants).
SO MUCH HATE.
I know. When I read it, I thought: if you're THAT kind of a jerk, Danckelmann, I won't feel sorry at all when you fall.
The Severus Snape method of teaching: only entertaining to read about in fiction. Now Danckelmann, like Snape, had positives going for him - he was a tireless worker dedicated to the state, and there's a reason why him falling from power and Wartenberg gaining it was regarded as such a disaster for centuries. Undoubtedly, too, the trial and the ensueing prison sentence was unfair. But nothing I've read about him made me think he should have been a teacher. (If he was a prodigy able to defend a thesis at university level at 12, undoubtedly little F1 appeared slow to him by comparison.)
HOHENZOLLERN DADS OMG WTF
The Three Georges of Britain and Hanover: Why? This was certainly the most normal thing ever to state about a son. We all said this about our eldest!
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: Portrait of F1 as a Young Woobie
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-08 06:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Clearly! I guess at some point I'll have to read Jürgen Luh's big new biography of the Elector to find out why he did in the first place, given it's such a non-Hohenzollerian name...
Ooh, yes, do! For many reasons, not just Karl Emil.
The Severus Snape method of teaching: only entertaining to read about in fiction.
Right? Snape is one of my (predicatably) problematic faves in fiction, but I would never let him around a child in real life!
(If he was a prodigy able to defend a thesis at university level at 12, undoubtedly little F1 appeared slow to him by comparison.)
Oh, yeah, that makes total sense. I *cough* have not always been the most patient teacher either, though I'm trying to get better.
The Three Georges of Britain and Hanover: Why? This was certainly the most normal thing ever to state about a son. We all said this about our eldest!
*spittake*
HANOVER DADS OMG WTF
Ooh, yes, do! For many reasons, not just Karl Emil.
The Severus Snape method of teaching: only entertaining to read about in fiction.
Right? Snape is one of my (predicatably) problematic faves in fiction, but I would never let him around a child in real life!
(If he was a prodigy able to defend a thesis at university level at 12, undoubtedly little F1 appeared slow to him by comparison.)
Oh, yeah, that makes total sense. I *cough* have not always been the most patient teacher either, though I'm trying to get better.
The Three Georges of Britain and Hanover: Why? This was certainly the most normal thing ever to state about a son. We all said this about our eldest!
*spittake*
HANOVER DADS OMG WTF
Both Schmidt and Göse provide scans from F1's exercise books, but it's tellling for the overall emphasis which different translation exercises as given by Danckemann they picked:
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: Portrait of F1 as a Young Woobie - Illustration
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-09 10:09 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, yes, those are very different samples.
Such lovely handwriting, though! I can only admire and envy (and wish all historical records were that clear).
Such lovely handwriting, though! I can only admire and envy (and wish all historical records were that clear).
(probably still under extremely limited non-work computer time until the end of the week, but decided I needed to take a little break :) )
Lol to the one man defense squad! :) But yes, I'm glad you had a counterbalance :)
So... do we now think this was the Karl Emil that Fritz wanted AW's kid named after? I guess this makes sense given that everyone thought Karl Emil was awesome?
Unfortunately, fighting for future F1 also meant subjecting him to an endless series of medical tortures, iron corsets, getting pressed between weights to correct his spine and feet, until one Dr. Fey put an end to it and said the weight pressures especially were probably responsible for F1's asthma or at least it being so bad and could kill the kid.
UGH 18th-C medicine :P But go Dr. Fey!
And with geography, the princes were supposed to learn the names of towns and countries etc. in a non-dull manner by the teacher attaching interesting stories to them so they memorize them better.
OH HEY I empathize greatly with thesoap opera interesting-story method of teaching! :DDDDDD But seriously, this seems very pedagogically sound for a 17th century guy, as you say :D
and the first time F1's mother Louise Henriette noticed this, she wrote a letter in protest, that "Fritzchen" surely would be better guided by kindness than by verbal abuse.
Aw, good for her! (Though sorry that it didn't... entirely...)
Baroque German: "Mein Bruder und ich wollen gelehrte Printzen werden. Aber Fritz wird ein Esel bleiben."
I didn't get all the words (I should have gotten more than I did, but I have slacked off on my German), but thanks to google translate I'm like DANCKELMANN
Hanette gives birth to a daughter - his only daughter, as it would happen - and dies after just a few years.
So one of the things that I am finding really annoys me about history is that people DON'T live happily ever after. WHY NOT, UNIVERSE.
Lol to the one man defense squad! :) But yes, I'm glad you had a counterbalance :)
So... do we now think this was the Karl Emil that Fritz wanted AW's kid named after? I guess this makes sense given that everyone thought Karl Emil was awesome?
Unfortunately, fighting for future F1 also meant subjecting him to an endless series of medical tortures, iron corsets, getting pressed between weights to correct his spine and feet, until one Dr. Fey put an end to it and said the weight pressures especially were probably responsible for F1's asthma or at least it being so bad and could kill the kid.
UGH 18th-C medicine :P But go Dr. Fey!
And with geography, the princes were supposed to learn the names of towns and countries etc. in a non-dull manner by the teacher attaching interesting stories to them so they memorize them better.
OH HEY I empathize greatly with the
and the first time F1's mother Louise Henriette noticed this, she wrote a letter in protest, that "Fritzchen" surely would be better guided by kindness than by verbal abuse.
Aw, good for her! (Though sorry that it didn't... entirely...)
Baroque German: "Mein Bruder und ich wollen gelehrte Printzen werden. Aber Fritz wird ein Esel bleiben."
I didn't get all the words (I should have gotten more than I did, but I have slacked off on my German), but thanks to google translate I'm like DANCKELMANN
Hanette gives birth to a daughter - his only daughter, as it would happen - and dies after just a few years.
So one of the things that I am finding really annoys me about history is that people DON'T live happily ever after. WHY NOT, UNIVERSE.
So... do we now think this was the Karl Emil that Fritz wanted AW's kid named after? I guess this makes sense given that everyone thought Karl Emil was awesome?
Yes, and the name hadn't been used again in the current generation of Hohenzollerns. (Unlike Friedrich, Heinrich and Wilhelm in all possible combinations.) Given Fritz had written a Histoire de la Maison de Brandenburg, he must have known about the Elector's treasured oldest son. (And/or Pöllnitz told him some stories.)
I didn't get all the words (I should have gotten more than I did, but I have slacked off on my German), but thanks to google translate I'm like DANCKELMANN
Like I said to Mildred: I like my Severus Snape types and their methods of teaching to remain fictional!
The universe is most inconsiderate to the reading public, I agree.
Yes, and the name hadn't been used again in the current generation of Hohenzollerns. (Unlike Friedrich, Heinrich and Wilhelm in all possible combinations.) Given Fritz had written a Histoire de la Maison de Brandenburg, he must have known about the Elector's treasured oldest son. (And/or Pöllnitz told him some stories.)
I didn't get all the words (I should have gotten more than I did, but I have slacked off on my German), but thanks to google translate I'm like DANCKELMANN
Like I said to Mildred: I like my Severus Snape types and their methods of teaching to remain fictional!
The universe is most inconsiderate to the reading public, I agree.
Werner Schmidt: Time to defend my guy again. This is when he signs a secret contract with Team Vienna. What's this about, you ask? Well, future F1, no fool, figured that if Stepmom had Louis XIV to back her up, he needed the only other heavy puncher, who was the Emperor, in his corner. Now, Dad the Elector had grown uneasy about his French alliance himself (Louis was about to kick the Huguenots out) and saw the need to reconcile with Vienna, too. On that note, he and the Emperor signed a contract in which Dad Elector agreed Brandenburg-Prussia would drop all claims on Silesia (!!!!) if the Habsburgs would fork over the county Schwiebus which is located in the Silesian duchy of Glogau. My guy F1 simultanously made a secret contract with the Emperor in which in return for the promise to defend F1's rights should Dad attempt to change his last weill, F1 as soon as he'd become F1 would return Schwiebus to the Habsburgs. He's been critiqued a lot for this but what I'd like to know is: how is this different from Dad Elector's secret treaty with Louis years earlier? Also, naturally this was the pretext F2's historians hit upon when he told him to justify his invasion of Silesia. (Their argument being that by Vienna making secret treaties with the son, their treaty with the Elector in which he resigns from his claims on Silesia was non valid.) Which means in a roundabout way it was good for Prussia!
Next up: the Affair of the Poisons, Prussian Edition.
Now, in 1676, the Marquise de Brinvilliers had been executed as a poisoner in Paris. Her discovery triggered the biggest poisoning scandal of the age, the "Affair of the Poisons" which became so notorious because at least one of Louis' main mistresses, the Marquise de Montespan, as well as several other high society ladies at Versailles were all clients of the same poisoner (& soothsayer & abortionist), Catherine La Voisin. Naturally, all of Europe was glued on the latest news from Versailles. And when does young future F1 start to wonder about stepmom? In 1677. It becomes really serious when three things happen:
1) F1 after drinking a cup of mocca coffee at his stepmom's table collapses. Danckelmann (as far as F1 is concerned) saves his life by giving him a digestive that makes him throw up.
2) Ludwig, the last of F1's full brothers, whom he's been close to, dies as well. Ludwig like F1 has been punished by Dad Elector for not being Karl Emil. Rebénac the French envoy reports that Ludwig a day before his death had begged to see his father one more time but the Elector thought he was faking it and, quote: Instead of visiting him, he sent messages complaining of (Ludwig's) weakness and silly fear to die. (...) At last, Sire, he died only three rooms away from his father without having seen the later again.
3) Figuelotte is pregnant again (the first kid has died as a baby already), and Rebénac, no fan of F1's and thus definitely not biased in his favor, has this to report about the event that ensued, in the same letter he talks about Ludwig's death (and assures Louis that no poisoning happened, no matter what future F1 thinks):
A more realistic and far more justified reason to complain on the Kurprinz' part is related to his lady wife. This princess (Sophie Charlotte/Figuelotte), who has all the good qualities which beauty and wit can provide, and who in addition to this has a good temper and virtue, has the misfortune to be disliked by the Elector and the Electress, despite having shown them only humility. She gets treated so badly that even the most dishonorable of women would find it unbearable. It seems the final straw for her and her husband was that the Prince Elector replied to the joyful news brought by the Kurprinz that the princess was expecting again that maybe his daughter-in-law was expecting but that only God knew who caused it. Since then all conversations (by the Elector) only circle around this subject, and I'm told he has started to throw the name of the supposed father around. This is an affair which saddens the Princess deeply but which will not have any consequences. Her conduct has been so spotless, and the accusation so unlikely, that one cannot marvel enough at the Elector's statements.
At which point F1 decides he's had enough and is hightailing it out of Brandenburg with his pregnant wife, using an already scheduled trip to Hessen-Kassel to visit his former in-laws as an excuse. His first stopover is Hannover where his current in-laws reside. Schmidt and Göse both quote the letter from Sophie thatfelis also quoted, only a bit longer (the next sentence makes it clear Sophie also thinks poor dead Ludwig has been poisoned). Unlike the author of the book felis found, neither Schmidt nor Göse think Sophie was meddling and following an evil agenda here.
Schmidt and Göse: we both agree that Dorothea was in all likelihood innocent, but that F1 & Team Hannover were far from the only ones who thought she wasn't. Most of their contemporaries thought the very same thing. Where we disagree is:
Schmidt: I'm blaming Dorothea for poisoning the atmosphere between the Elector and the sons of his first marriage, F1 and Ludwig both, in order to favour her own sons.
Göse: I don't. Firstly, the Elector being awful to his sons is on him, not her. Secondly, I'd like to point out that once the Elector had died and F1 had all the power, he was remarkably unvengeful to Stepmom, and actually got on well with his Schwedt half brothers, inviting them to court etc. If he really thought Dorothea, not Dad had been after his life, that's a bit odd. Methinks he probably thought Dad did but wasn't able to say so, hence blamed Stepmom.
Schmidt: I'm not letting the Elector of the hook! His last change of will, fueled by the anger of F1's public flight and conditions for his return (the guarantee not to be murdered), would have divided Prussia, giving the Schwedt brothers everything except Brandenburg. Like Leipniz said, it's the testament of a housefather, not a monarch, and for that alone the title "great", which his contemporaries gave him already, should have been taken away from him. Luckily, F1 ignored it. He gave his half brothers estate of their own but only as vasals of Brandenburg-Prussia and thus kept the realm together. Without this, his grandson could never have become Frederick the Great, but you wouldn't know it from his constant granddad bashing. Why yes, F2 is my red button in this biography. I'm completely blaming him for 200 years of F1 dissings.
Next, whenselenak has time again: my and Göse's different takes on Sophie Charlotte/Figuelotte, Danckelmann's fall, and whether or not Katte's Granddad Wartensleben deserved the same bad press the other two Ws got. Stay tuned!
Next up: the Affair of the Poisons, Prussian Edition.
Now, in 1676, the Marquise de Brinvilliers had been executed as a poisoner in Paris. Her discovery triggered the biggest poisoning scandal of the age, the "Affair of the Poisons" which became so notorious because at least one of Louis' main mistresses, the Marquise de Montespan, as well as several other high society ladies at Versailles were all clients of the same poisoner (& soothsayer & abortionist), Catherine La Voisin. Naturally, all of Europe was glued on the latest news from Versailles. And when does young future F1 start to wonder about stepmom? In 1677. It becomes really serious when three things happen:
1) F1 after drinking a cup of mocca coffee at his stepmom's table collapses. Danckelmann (as far as F1 is concerned) saves his life by giving him a digestive that makes him throw up.
2) Ludwig, the last of F1's full brothers, whom he's been close to, dies as well. Ludwig like F1 has been punished by Dad Elector for not being Karl Emil. Rebénac the French envoy reports that Ludwig a day before his death had begged to see his father one more time but the Elector thought he was faking it and, quote: Instead of visiting him, he sent messages complaining of (Ludwig's) weakness and silly fear to die. (...) At last, Sire, he died only three rooms away from his father without having seen the later again.
3) Figuelotte is pregnant again (the first kid has died as a baby already), and Rebénac, no fan of F1's and thus definitely not biased in his favor, has this to report about the event that ensued, in the same letter he talks about Ludwig's death (and assures Louis that no poisoning happened, no matter what future F1 thinks):
A more realistic and far more justified reason to complain on the Kurprinz' part is related to his lady wife. This princess (Sophie Charlotte/Figuelotte), who has all the good qualities which beauty and wit can provide, and who in addition to this has a good temper and virtue, has the misfortune to be disliked by the Elector and the Electress, despite having shown them only humility. She gets treated so badly that even the most dishonorable of women would find it unbearable. It seems the final straw for her and her husband was that the Prince Elector replied to the joyful news brought by the Kurprinz that the princess was expecting again that maybe his daughter-in-law was expecting but that only God knew who caused it. Since then all conversations (by the Elector) only circle around this subject, and I'm told he has started to throw the name of the supposed father around. This is an affair which saddens the Princess deeply but which will not have any consequences. Her conduct has been so spotless, and the accusation so unlikely, that one cannot marvel enough at the Elector's statements.
At which point F1 decides he's had enough and is hightailing it out of Brandenburg with his pregnant wife, using an already scheduled trip to Hessen-Kassel to visit his former in-laws as an excuse. His first stopover is Hannover where his current in-laws reside. Schmidt and Göse both quote the letter from Sophie that
felis also quoted, only a bit longer (the next sentence makes it clear Sophie also thinks poor dead Ludwig has been poisoned). Unlike the author of the book felis found, neither Schmidt nor Göse think Sophie was meddling and following an evil agenda here. Schmidt and Göse: we both agree that Dorothea was in all likelihood innocent, but that F1 & Team Hannover were far from the only ones who thought she wasn't. Most of their contemporaries thought the very same thing. Where we disagree is:
Schmidt: I'm blaming Dorothea for poisoning the atmosphere between the Elector and the sons of his first marriage, F1 and Ludwig both, in order to favour her own sons.
Göse: I don't. Firstly, the Elector being awful to his sons is on him, not her. Secondly, I'd like to point out that once the Elector had died and F1 had all the power, he was remarkably unvengeful to Stepmom, and actually got on well with his Schwedt half brothers, inviting them to court etc. If he really thought Dorothea, not Dad had been after his life, that's a bit odd. Methinks he probably thought Dad did but wasn't able to say so, hence blamed Stepmom.
Schmidt: I'm not letting the Elector of the hook! His last change of will, fueled by the anger of F1's public flight and conditions for his return (the guarantee not to be murdered), would have divided Prussia, giving the Schwedt brothers everything except Brandenburg. Like Leipniz said, it's the testament of a housefather, not a monarch, and for that alone the title "great", which his contemporaries gave him already, should have been taken away from him. Luckily, F1 ignored it. He gave his half brothers estate of their own but only as vasals of Brandenburg-Prussia and thus kept the realm together. Without this, his grandson could never have become Frederick the Great, but you wouldn't know it from his constant granddad bashing. Why yes, F2 is my red button in this biography. I'm completely blaming him for 200 years of F1 dissings.
Next, when
selenak has time again: my and Göse's different takes on Sophie Charlotte/Figuelotte, Danckelmann's fall, and whether or not Katte's Granddad Wartensleben deserved the same bad press the other two Ws got. Stay tuned! 1) F1 after drinking a cup of mocca coffee at his stepmom's table collapses. Danckelmann (as far as F1 is concerned) saves his life by giving him a digestive that makes him throw up.
Oh, interesting. I was wondering what exactly Sophie was talking about with the antitoxin mention...
At which point F1 decides he's had enough and is hightailing it out of Brandenburg with his pregnant wife
And who can blame him really, even without the poisoning hype going around.
Unlike the author of the book felis found, neither Schmidt nor Göse think Sophie was meddling and following an evil agenda here.
HA. Although I'm sure that Sophie was Not Amused when she heard about the insults directed at her daughter.
re: the poisoning - given the initial Versailles affair, I can see how it became somewhat of a hyped topic across Europe.
Firstly, the Elector being awful to his sons is on him, not her.
I'll say.
Methinks he probably thought Dad did but wasn't able to say so, hence blamed Stepmom.
Hmmm.
I'm completely blaming him for 200 years of F1 dissings.
Heh. For all the granddad bashing, it's still fascinating to me that he invoked him as a precedent during his interrogation in 1730.
Oh, interesting. I was wondering what exactly Sophie was talking about with the antitoxin mention...
At which point F1 decides he's had enough and is hightailing it out of Brandenburg with his pregnant wife
And who can blame him really, even without the poisoning hype going around.
Unlike the author of the book felis found, neither Schmidt nor Göse think Sophie was meddling and following an evil agenda here.
HA. Although I'm sure that Sophie was Not Amused when she heard about the insults directed at her daughter.
re: the poisoning - given the initial Versailles affair, I can see how it became somewhat of a hyped topic across Europe.
Firstly, the Elector being awful to his sons is on him, not her.
I'll say.
Methinks he probably thought Dad did but wasn't able to say so, hence blamed Stepmom.
Hmmm.
I'm completely blaming him for 200 years of F1 dissings.
Heh. For all the granddad bashing, it's still fascinating to me that he invoked him as a precedent during his interrogation in 1730.
I was wondering what exactly Sophie was talking about with the antitoxin mention...
*nods* Me too. But it seems there was an actual specific event. Now the French envoy snarked that if future F1 got sick from anything it was from the antitoxins, and of course F1 didn't have a healthy body to begin with, but from F1's perspective, the series of events were: Mocca consumed, collapse, pain, antitoxin given by Danckelmann, throwing up, survival!
And who can blame him really, even without the poisoning hype going around.
Yep. From the moment Karl Emil died, the Elector really seems to have taken against his surviving sons in general and against future F1 in particular, and it had gotten worse and worse until this point. With Ludwig dead, there really was nothing keeping him in Brandenburg.
Although I'm sure that Sophie was Not Amused when she heard about the insults directed at her daughter.
No kidding. BTW, between Caroline & G2 insisting Fritz of Wales was impotent and any baby couldn't be his, the old Margrave claiming Wilhelmine was just pretending to be pregnant in order to get the attention, and now the Elector dissing his daughter-in-law as an adultress and his son as impotent as well, one has to conclude that venting parental hate by claiming your son can't get it up and your daughter-in-law is faking pregnancy/getting herself pregnant by someone else is a specific Rokoko form of royal family dysfunction. I note that all the Prussian historians going on about how Hannover pride made the Sophies ruin Hohenzollern father/son relationships are silent about the Elector insulting both his daughters-in-law (let's not forget, he tried his best make the marriage of the first one into a non-event) before his in-laws ever gave him cause.
It also occurs to me that in an age where royal daughters were married off far, far away from their place of origin, and never saw their parents again, Sophie & Sophie Charlotte/Figuelotte were in an unusual position because the relative proximity of Hannover and Berlin allowed visits as well as letters, which meant the emotional tie could remain unusually strong. (Then again, Liselotte only saw Sophie once after her departure from the Palatinate, at the Versailles visit, yet remained firmly attached to her through the decades and was absolutely heartbroken in 1714 when the older woman died. of ourse, nationalistic 19th century German historians never blamed Liselotte for still feeling attached to her German family and its interests instead of putting French interests first, because that's, like, totally different from Figuelotte still having feelings about Hannover!)
the poisoning - given the initial Versailles affair, I can see how it became somewhat of a hyped topic across Europe.
Yes. It's weird, I'm reasonably well versed about this part of French history, and yet I never considered the temporal proximity of the Affair of the Poisons with F1 (and a lot of other people) getting suspicious of Stepmom. As Horowski says, nothing happens in isolation and it's always worth checking out the cross connections!
For all the granddad bashing, it's still fascinating to me that he invoked him as a precedent during his interrogation in 1730.
Well, he was a smart young man. :) Also, the bashing didn't start until later. As Mildred & self concluded, it was most probably fueled by FW's constant expectations that Fritz would turn out to be just like Granddad, so he projected onto F1 all the negatives his father ever accused him of.
*nods* Me too. But it seems there was an actual specific event. Now the French envoy snarked that if future F1 got sick from anything it was from the antitoxins, and of course F1 didn't have a healthy body to begin with, but from F1's perspective, the series of events were: Mocca consumed, collapse, pain, antitoxin given by Danckelmann, throwing up, survival!
And who can blame him really, even without the poisoning hype going around.
Yep. From the moment Karl Emil died, the Elector really seems to have taken against his surviving sons in general and against future F1 in particular, and it had gotten worse and worse until this point. With Ludwig dead, there really was nothing keeping him in Brandenburg.
Although I'm sure that Sophie was Not Amused when she heard about the insults directed at her daughter.
No kidding. BTW, between Caroline & G2 insisting Fritz of Wales was impotent and any baby couldn't be his, the old Margrave claiming Wilhelmine was just pretending to be pregnant in order to get the attention, and now the Elector dissing his daughter-in-law as an adultress and his son as impotent as well, one has to conclude that venting parental hate by claiming your son can't get it up and your daughter-in-law is faking pregnancy/getting herself pregnant by someone else is a specific Rokoko form of royal family dysfunction. I note that all the Prussian historians going on about how Hannover pride made the Sophies ruin Hohenzollern father/son relationships are silent about the Elector insulting both his daughters-in-law (let's not forget, he tried his best make the marriage of the first one into a non-event) before his in-laws ever gave him cause.
It also occurs to me that in an age where royal daughters were married off far, far away from their place of origin, and never saw their parents again, Sophie & Sophie Charlotte/Figuelotte were in an unusual position because the relative proximity of Hannover and Berlin allowed visits as well as letters, which meant the emotional tie could remain unusually strong. (Then again, Liselotte only saw Sophie once after her departure from the Palatinate, at the Versailles visit, yet remained firmly attached to her through the decades and was absolutely heartbroken in 1714 when the older woman died. of ourse, nationalistic 19th century German historians never blamed Liselotte for still feeling attached to her German family and its interests instead of putting French interests first, because that's, like, totally different from Figuelotte still having feelings about Hannover!)
the poisoning - given the initial Versailles affair, I can see how it became somewhat of a hyped topic across Europe.
Yes. It's weird, I'm reasonably well versed about this part of French history, and yet I never considered the temporal proximity of the Affair of the Poisons with F1 (and a lot of other people) getting suspicious of Stepmom. As Horowski says, nothing happens in isolation and it's always worth checking out the cross connections!
For all the granddad bashing, it's still fascinating to me that he invoked him as a precedent during his interrogation in 1730.
Well, he was a smart young man. :) Also, the bashing didn't start until later. As Mildred & self concluded, it was most probably fueled by FW's constant expectations that Fritz would turn out to be just like Granddad, so he projected onto F1 all the negatives his father ever accused him of.
Well, he was a smart young man.
See, having learned more about F1's reasons as well as his father now, I'm wondering if it really was that smart, because he clearly equated FW with the Great Elector here - would FW have felt insulted by that?* - and played into FW's fears that, as you say, Fritz would turn out like Granddad.
* I have no idea how he felt about his own grandfather, but my impression is that he sure lived up to the name he got when it comes to interests, demeanour, and treatment of his sons. (Just like Schwedt!FW by the way, the Great Elector's other grandson called FW, a.k.a. the horrible cousin poor Sophie got married to.)
so he projected onto F1 all the negatives his father ever accused him of
Yeah, I was thinking along similar lines. Plus, if he in any way identified with F1 when he tried to escape, any later "my foolish youth" regret/embarassment might have been mixed into that anti-F1 sentiment as well.
See, having learned more about F1's reasons as well as his father now, I'm wondering if it really was that smart, because he clearly equated FW with the Great Elector here - would FW have felt insulted by that?* - and played into FW's fears that, as you say, Fritz would turn out like Granddad.
* I have no idea how he felt about his own grandfather, but my impression is that he sure lived up to the name he got when it comes to interests, demeanour, and treatment of his sons. (Just like Schwedt!FW by the way, the Great Elector's other grandson called FW, a.k.a. the horrible cousin poor Sophie got married to.)
so he projected onto F1 all the negatives his father ever accused him of
Yeah, I was thinking along similar lines. Plus, if he in any way identified with F1 when he tried to escape, any later "my foolish youth" regret/embarassment might have been mixed into that anti-F1 sentiment as well.
he clearly equated FW with the Great Elector here - would FW have felt insulted by that?*
This I very much doubt. The Great Elector in 1730 was the only Hohenzollern to have been titled "Great" (and by his contemporaries, no less). He won some legendary military victories (Fehrbelln, aka the "In den Staub mit allen Feinden Brandenburgs!" one Kleist used in his Prinz Friedrich von Homburg play), was regarded as a charitable protector of the Protestant Faith, too, due to immediately after Louis had revoked the Edict of Nantes releasing his own Edict of Potsdam with which he invited the Huguenot into Prussia, and was respected even by Catholic monarchs (including Louis). Basically, I would be very much surprised if FW didn't see his grandfather as a hero to emulate. (He didn't have any personal memories of him, of course.)
(I also recall Fritz once made a sarcastic remark about the longest surviving of the Schwedt sons always saying "I'm the son of the Great Elector", which would not work if the Great Elector in the FW era hadn't been upheld as the greatest Hohenzollern of them all to all and sunder.)
This I very much doubt. The Great Elector in 1730 was the only Hohenzollern to have been titled "Great" (and by his contemporaries, no less). He won some legendary military victories (Fehrbelln, aka the "In den Staub mit allen Feinden Brandenburgs!" one Kleist used in his Prinz Friedrich von Homburg play), was regarded as a charitable protector of the Protestant Faith, too, due to immediately after Louis had revoked the Edict of Nantes releasing his own Edict of Potsdam with which he invited the Huguenot into Prussia, and was respected even by Catholic monarchs (including Louis). Basically, I would be very much surprised if FW didn't see his grandfather as a hero to emulate. (He didn't have any personal memories of him, of course.)
(I also recall Fritz once made a sarcastic remark about the longest surviving of the Schwedt sons always saying "I'm the son of the Great Elector", which would not work if the Great Elector in the FW era hadn't been upheld as the greatest Hohenzollern of them all to all and sunder.)
I would be very much surprised if FW didn't see his grandfather as a hero to emulate
Oh, yeah, certainly in the political area, and when it comes to stuff like money and the army. My question was more inspired by the personal relationship side, i.e. how he saw the Great Elector vs. F1 relationship, but I guess in the end it was rather convenient that he could put the poisoning fears on a woman and ignore the actual Elector vs. F1 problems.
Oh, yeah, certainly in the political area, and when it comes to stuff like money and the army. My question was more inspired by the personal relationship side, i.e. how he saw the Great Elector vs. F1 relationship, but I guess in the end it was rather convenient that he could put the poisoning fears on a woman and ignore the actual Elector vs. F1 problems.
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: The Affair of the Poisons (Prussian Edition)
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-08 05:11 pm (UTC)(link)
On the personal relationship side, I would bet on FW's take being "In any father-son conflict, the father is always right." Unlike G2, who belatedly had to remember that *his* Dear Old Dad and he hadn't always been on the best of terms, FW was dutiful toward his father, even though his worst nightmare was another king like F1 on the throne of Prussia.
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: The Affair of the Poisons (Prussian Edition)
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-07 11:40 pm (UTC)(link)
And when does young future F1 start to wonder about stepmom? In 1677.
Aahhh, this makes so much sense! So glad we (mostly you) pursued finding out more!
1) F1 after drinking a cup of mocca coffee at his stepmom's table collapses. Danckelmann (as far as F1 is concerned) saves his life by giving him a digestive that makes him throw up.
Oh, wow, that is way more detail than we had.
Without this, his grandson could never have become Frederick the Great, but you wouldn't know it from his constant granddad bashing. Why yes, F2 is my red button in this biography.
One Man Defense Squad to the rescue! Well, Fritz had some issues to work out. Poetry, music, and dogs only go so far: therapy via history-writing is important too! :P
I'm completely blaming him for 200 years of F1 dissings.
FW2: Join the club, Great-grandpa.
Aahhh, this makes so much sense! So glad we (mostly you) pursued finding out more!
1) F1 after drinking a cup of mocca coffee at his stepmom's table collapses. Danckelmann (as far as F1 is concerned) saves his life by giving him a digestive that makes him throw up.
Oh, wow, that is way more detail than we had.
Without this, his grandson could never have become Frederick the Great, but you wouldn't know it from his constant granddad bashing. Why yes, F2 is my red button in this biography.
One Man Defense Squad to the rescue! Well, Fritz had some issues to work out. Poetry, music, and dogs only go so far: therapy via history-writing is important too! :P
I'm completely blaming him for 200 years of F1 dissings.
FW2: Join the club, Great-grandpa.
Fritz had some issues to work out. Poetry, music, and dogs only go so far: therapy via history-writing is important too!
Quite. :) And hey, cheaper than F1's own therapy which involved lots of ceremonies and splendor. (And ordering a copy of the Dauphin's wedding suit for his son.)
re: the poison suspicion, another who believed this had happened was the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel who wrote in his diary when F1's brother Ludwig had died that it surely was poison - and this predates F1 visiting Kassel by months, so F1 isn't the source of the idea (and Sophie isn't, either.) It was the mental equation people drew out of the combination of the big and unforgotten Versailles scandal and knowing that relations between the Elector and his sons from the first marriage were going downhill, plus the usual reflex of stepmother/woman blaming.
Quite. :) And hey, cheaper than F1's own therapy which involved lots of ceremonies and splendor. (And ordering a copy of the Dauphin's wedding suit for his son.)
re: the poison suspicion, another who believed this had happened was the Landgrave of Hesse-Kassel who wrote in his diary when F1's brother Ludwig had died that it surely was poison - and this predates F1 visiting Kassel by months, so F1 isn't the source of the idea (and Sophie isn't, either.) It was the mental equation people drew out of the combination of the big and unforgotten Versailles scandal and knowing that relations between the Elector and his sons from the first marriage were going downhill, plus the usual reflex of stepmother/woman blaming.
And when does young future F1 start to wonder about stepmom? In 1677.
Huh. Interesting!
Instead of visiting him, he sent messages complaining of (Ludwig's) weakness and silly fear to die. (...) At last, Sire, he died only three rooms away from his father without having seen the later again.
WHAT. UGH.
It seems the final straw for her and her husband was that the Prince Elector replied to the joyful news brought by the Kurprinz that the princess was expecting again that maybe his daughter-in-law was expecting but that only God knew who caused it.
I think it is pretty awful that my first reaction to this was "well, I suppose that isn't QUITE as bad as the previous thing." Like... that is not a good sign...
(Also, Rebenac seems to have all sorts of interesting gossip!)
Firstly, the Elector being awful to his sons is on him, not her.
I mean... he's got a point :P
Secondly, I'd like to point out that once the Elector had died and F1 had all the power, he was remarkably unvengeful to Stepmom, and actually got on well with his Schwedt half brothers, inviting them to court etc. If he really thought Dorothea, not Dad had been after his life, that's a bit odd. Methinks he probably thought Dad did but wasn't able to say so, hence blamed Stepmom.
Huh, that seems plausible to me.
Without this, his grandson could never have become Frederick the Great, but you wouldn't know it from his constant granddad bashing.
Hee!
Huh. Interesting!
Instead of visiting him, he sent messages complaining of (Ludwig's) weakness and silly fear to die. (...) At last, Sire, he died only three rooms away from his father without having seen the later again.
WHAT. UGH.
It seems the final straw for her and her husband was that the Prince Elector replied to the joyful news brought by the Kurprinz that the princess was expecting again that maybe his daughter-in-law was expecting but that only God knew who caused it.
I think it is pretty awful that my first reaction to this was "well, I suppose that isn't QUITE as bad as the previous thing." Like... that is not a good sign...
(Also, Rebenac seems to have all sorts of interesting gossip!)
Firstly, the Elector being awful to his sons is on him, not her.
I mean... he's got a point :P
Secondly, I'd like to point out that once the Elector had died and F1 had all the power, he was remarkably unvengeful to Stepmom, and actually got on well with his Schwedt half brothers, inviting them to court etc. If he really thought Dorothea, not Dad had been after his life, that's a bit odd. Methinks he probably thought Dad did but wasn't able to say so, hence blamed Stepmom.
Huh, that seems plausible to me.
Without this, his grandson could never have become Frederick the Great, but you wouldn't know it from his constant granddad bashing.
Hee!
Rebenac seems to have all sorts of interesting gossip!
I thought so, too. I mean, evidently colored by bias and wishful thinking (Kurprinz F1 on his deathbed, "feeble-minded" Danckelmann - even his worst enemies would not have accused Danckelmann of being feeble minded -, presumably because he wasn't a fan of Louis XIV, future F1 "a miser", which, again, his worst enemies would not have accused this notorious spendrift of - I take it this translates into "did not bribe me"), but he seems to be yet another proof that the envoys are where the good sensational gossip is to be had.
WHAT. UGH.
I know. To be fair, Rebenac swears in the further quotes from his reports that the Elector was stunned and heartbroken afterwards as he really seems to have believed his son Ludwig was faking it until then, but that also is telling about how badly relationships between him and the sons of his first marriage had gotten.
Also. Err. Think Fritz and AW. (Though poor Ludwig seems to have done nothing to piss off Dad but side with future F1.)
F1 blaming Stepmom because he couldn't blame Dad directly: Mind you, I think if that's what he did, it was more a subconscious decision. The "You know I know what a stepmother is" remark in his letter to Sophie, reassuring her Wife 3 won't be mean to SD and FW, is testimony to the fact he at the very least even years later did not like his stepmother much. But it's true, he didn't do anything against her once the Elector was dead. Which could also be because he got along with his younger half brothers (the youngest of whom was basically of an age with FW and thus partly co-raised by F1), and she was their mother. I would say "or because F1 was more of a forgiving type", but then again, Danckelmann. (Where I think Werner Schmidt has a point that the unusual harshness of his fall and punishment was due to unhealed wounds from F1's childhood, despite his admiration for Danckelmann's gifts and dedication to the state.)
I thought so, too. I mean, evidently colored by bias and wishful thinking (Kurprinz F1 on his deathbed, "feeble-minded" Danckelmann - even his worst enemies would not have accused Danckelmann of being feeble minded -, presumably because he wasn't a fan of Louis XIV, future F1 "a miser", which, again, his worst enemies would not have accused this notorious spendrift of - I take it this translates into "did not bribe me"), but he seems to be yet another proof that the envoys are where the good sensational gossip is to be had.
WHAT. UGH.
I know. To be fair, Rebenac swears in the further quotes from his reports that the Elector was stunned and heartbroken afterwards as he really seems to have believed his son Ludwig was faking it until then, but that also is telling about how badly relationships between him and the sons of his first marriage had gotten.
Also. Err. Think Fritz and AW. (Though poor Ludwig seems to have done nothing to piss off Dad but side with future F1.)
F1 blaming Stepmom because he couldn't blame Dad directly: Mind you, I think if that's what he did, it was more a subconscious decision. The "You know I know what a stepmother is" remark in his letter to Sophie, reassuring her Wife 3 won't be mean to SD and FW, is testimony to the fact he at the very least even years later did not like his stepmother much. But it's true, he didn't do anything against her once the Elector was dead. Which could also be because he got along with his younger half brothers (the youngest of whom was basically of an age with FW and thus partly co-raised by F1), and she was their mother. I would say "or because F1 was more of a forgiving type", but then again, Danckelmann. (Where I think Werner Schmidt has a point that the unusual harshness of his fall and punishment was due to unhealed wounds from F1's childhood, despite his admiration for Danckelmann's gifts and dedication to the state.)
Go envoys!!
Also. Err. Think Fritz and AW.
Yeeeeah, true. Though I don't think this makes it better! :P
F1 blaming Stepmom because he couldn't blame Dad directly: Mind you, I think if that's what he did, it was more a subconscious decision.
Ohhhhh, sure, I buy that. I mean, like you've said before, there was a lot of societal pressure not to criticize one's parents, right?
Also. Err. Think Fritz and AW.
Yeeeeah, true. Though I don't think this makes it better! :P
F1 blaming Stepmom because he couldn't blame Dad directly: Mind you, I think if that's what he did, it was more a subconscious decision.
Ohhhhh, sure, I buy that. I mean, like you've said before, there was a lot of societal pressure not to criticize one's parents, right?
Yep- It's also yet another factor why I think Fritz later fixated so on bashing F1 - grandparents are another issue, especially grandparents whose entire way of like has been thouroughly condemned by Dad. And let's not forget, those same historians condemning Wilhelmine for being a bad daughter due to the way she wrote about her parents, especially F1, in her memoirs, applaud Fritz for being "an honest historian" for the way he bashes F1 and lauds FW. If, by contrast, he'd have gone for a full on FW critique, I think they'd have felt uneasy and not known what to do, because on the one hand, legendary King and der Einzige, on the other, filial disrespect. I'm basing this on the way even later 19th and early 20th century historians are uneasy by his FW hostile comments from his letters to Wilhelmine in the 1730s. (Not least because they go against the treasured Hohenzollern image of FW & Fritz being entirely reconciled post August 1731.
Werner Schmidt: So in a short while after very soon to be F1 returns amidst reassurances, has a lengthy talk with Dad and is officially reconciled with him, though how deep that went is anyone's guess, the Elector dies. My guy becomes F3 at first, since he's not King yet but Elector. Now, let's talk money! And buildings! And cultural foundations! I'm simply incensed at the double standards everyone has. Take two of F1's contemporaries: Max Emmanuel of Bavaria and August the Strong. Both pump a lot of money into baroque palaces and parties. selenak can show you her pics of Nymphenburg which Max Emmanuel built in Munich, and you've seen Dresden, where August left his mark. Both Max Emmanuel and August also weren't content with being Princes Elector, they wanted to become Kings. Hell, Max Emmanuel wanted to be Emperor! That's how he ended up on the French side in the Spanish War of Succession and Eugene & Marlborough kicked his butt at Blenheim/Blindheim/Höchstedt! Which is in Bavaria, and Bavaria suffered for those armies marching through just half a century after the 30 Years War, which was hardly recovery time! As for August, he changed his religion to get his hands on Poland. That's how eager he was to all himself King! And then he pissed off Charles XII, which resulted in the Scouring of Saxony (Swedish variation). What I'm getting at: August and Max Emmanuel get called art loving powerful Baroque princes.My guy Friedrich, by contrast, gets bashed as a ridiculous money wasting prince making himself the laughing stock of Europe with his wanting to become a King. Yet are the baroque buildings from the F1 era any lesser than those in Bavaria and Saxony, huh? While Brandenburg never ever suffered from being scoured or marched through (until grandson's time anyway). Not for lack of war. F1 was participating in wars for 22 of the 25 years of his rule, which is way more than son and grandson put together. But he participated in other people's wars, ELSEWHERE, and got a crown out of it because the Emperor really needed those Prussian troops. To return to my point: Max Emmanuel, August and F1 were all big baroque spenders. Only Bavarians and Saxons suffered while this was going on, while Prussians profited, yet my guy...
Frank Göse: Excuse me. I also think he got understimated and that he needs to be compared to his contemporaries, not to his son and grandson, but we have to acknowledge that his subjects did suffer in the three W era, despite the lack of an invasion.
Werner Schmidt:. But we're not there yet! For the first 13 years of F1's rule, his PM was Danckelmann. As in, former shouty teacher, prodigy, austere proto Prussian. Since he started as an ordinary citizen, the nobility hated his guts. The Secret Council was jealous as hell, and lobbied against him. But what really did him in was one woman's hate. Yes, Figuelotte, I'm blaming this one on you! Welll, on you and F1's unresolved issues with a teacher he'd admired and feared and who made him translate "Fritz will always be an ass" into Latin.
Frank Göse: While I wouldn't deny Sophie Charlotte came to dislike Danckelmann intensely, I think her part in his downfall was exaggarated by later Hohenzollern historians. As was her political influence in general, as opposed to her cultural one. She also disliked Danckelmann's successor Wartenberg, and Wartenberg remained on top till the last two years of F1's life, and it was her son who did him in.
Werner Schmidt: You're far too easy on her. Let's state for the record she hated Danckelmann because he saw through her. Remember how we've said that primogeniture hadn't become the self evident princple in the German principalities yet and that the Elector near the end of his life was trying to get a secondogeniture thing going? Well, Hannover, newly coined electorate that it was, also had the problem of lots of sons. However, Sophie's husband Ernst August had no intention of letting his newly united realm be hacked into tiny principality pieces once he died. Which is why he changed the law so that his oldest, George Louis, future G1, would inherit it all. Now, this was not in Prussia's interest, since until then Hannover & Brandenburg had been in the same playing field, but an undivided with that intriguing British prospect on the horizon would be more powerful. So Danckelmann encouraged some Hannoverian councillors to make a move preventing primogeniture to become law in Hannover. However, Figuelotte learned about this and warned Mom and Dad what was coming, thereby proving she loved Hannover more. Since Dad had one of the councillors executed, which ended opposition to primogeniture becoming law in Hannover, she also had blood on her hands! And when Danckelmann basically called her a treacherous bitch, she dared to resent him for it!
Frank Göse: I dare say she also resented him for being in charge of FW's educational schedule for the first few years, especially once presented with the results, i.e. Tiny Terror FW.
Werner Schmidt: That's what she claimed in her letters to Mom, but I don't believe her. She was being hysterical and trying to justify her hate. Not very philosophical of this so-called "Philosopher Queen".
Frank Göse: My point stands: while she undoubtedly cheered when Danckelmann fell, she wasn't the primary mover, nor did she profit from it. The guy moving into that power vacuum was Wartenberg, not Sophie Charlotte.
Werner Schmidt: I'm also blaming her for this. If she'd just shown more political interest, F1, who adored her, would not have needed Wartenberg and listened to her instead. But no! Madame preferred having debates with Leipniz and getting on with her Athens-on-the-Spree program .
Frank Göse: Blaming her both for intervening in the political arena (Danckelmann) and not intervening (Wartenberg) as a way of explaining why she disliked both yet only one fell within her life time is a bit illogical.
Werner Schmidt: I also do the psychological thing which you don't and declare that the way Danckelmann fell, the arrest, the years locked up before he was released, the multiple accusations which were plainly ridiculous were not only the the work of his enemies but of F1's subconscious. Freud would have totally gone for the delayed oedipal father figure killing explanation there. Moving on to the three W's. They were scum.
Frank Göse: Beg to differ.
Werner Schmidt: They were! Exploiting my fave woobie because he needed affection and respect and sure as hell wasn't getting it from his wife.
Frank Göse: Incidentally, we both agree that while F1 loved Sophie Charlotte, Figuelotte after the first few years did not love him, only I see this not as coldness on her part but the result of both of them being very different. And growing up. Remember, she'd been only sixteen when she married him. She'd liked him, and he might even have been a romantic figure to her - the persecuted, grieving prince - , papering over the fact he was handicapped, not physically attractive to her, not as quick verbally, a devout Calvinist where she was more into philosophy, someone who rose early while she was a night owl, who loved ceremonies which bored her. In short, he was the EC to her Fritz, only the power differential was the reverse. So she took some tobacco to snuff while he had his coronation ceremony at Königsberg to make fun of all the earnest pomposity -
Werner Schmidt: The most meaningful achievement of his life to him! She hardly could have hurt him more!
Frank Göse: That's your speculation, and you don't provide any quote from him to prove he was hurt.
Werner Schmidt: I don't need it, I know his soul. I also completely believe that story about her making fun of his size and don't consider it apocryphal, unlike you. After all, we do have her calling him "my Aesop" in one of her few preserved letters, and given Aesop had a hunchback, that just shows how she was. Like her grandson, indeed. But let's get on to the scum. Wartenberg:. the worst of the worst. Typical evil favourite. The only good thing he ever did as PM was uniting the various parts of Berlin with each other and making it the Berlin it was in Fritz' time. Otherwise, he just took money and offices, unlike Danckelmann was careful enough to let himself be made Reichsgraf, which meant he was a peer of the HRE, not just Prussia, which meant that when he did fall, he couldn't end up locked up as well. He also promoted his buddies at his side, like awful Wittgenstein, who was already deeply in debt when Wartenberg hired him, and that scum Wartensleben the Katte Granddad.
Frank Göse: Wartensleben wasn't like the other two Ws. My guy FW's liking for him testifies to that! He only got bitched about initially because the local military noblemen were totally jealous that he got promoted to head of the army over their heads.
Werner Schmidt: I don't think so. Watch me tear Granddad Wartensleben a new one while describing him thus to my readers: Wartensleben reccommended himself through the "galant courtier's life as a condottieri he'd lived" (Koch). He'd fought for and against the French, against the Turks and for the Venetians and finally ended up as leader of the army of Saxe-Gotha. Such a flexible and amoral mind ata the head of the (Prussian) army was for Wartenberg the ideal replacement of a stubborn straight-talker like Barfus.
Frank Göse: As for Wartenberg himself: agreed that he was corrupt. But no more so than the top guys at any Baroque court. Can we agree that contrary to what the gossips claimed and what since got repeated by people through the ages, he did not pimp out his wife as a mistress to F1?
Werner Schmidt: Most def. F1 never slept with her, and no, he didn't take her as a titular mistress, either. That woman was scum, though. After Wartenberg died, she plied her trade in Brussels and died a whore. You know how she and Wartenberg met? She was the daughter of a customs inspector, which legend made an innkeeper. Then she married a royal valet who brought her to Berlin, where she became Wartenberg's mistress. Then Danckelmann made Wartenberg marry her, which was the TRUE reason why Wartenberg hated Danckelmann and jointed the rest of the council who wanted to tumble him.
Frank Göse: Not so. I say these are legends. Sure, the woman loved splendor and power, which as the Pm's wife she had, but might I point out Sophie received her in Hannover? Would Sophie have done that if she'd thought La Wartenberg had been her son-in-law's mistress and the rival of her late beloved daughter?
Werner Schmidt: Sophie also received her own husband's mistress and those of her son and grandson, so that's not exactly a good argument.
Frank Göse: Still, her overall positive description of the Countess paints a more differentiated picture.
Werner Schmidt: Still a female Don Juan, though. Though she said that while her conquests were many, the King, much as she'd liked to, never was among them.
Frank Göse: Let's go back to the part where Figuelotte dies young, only in her early 30s, son FW married SD, and then F1 marries for the third time to secure the succession.
Werner Schmidt: we both agree this last marriage was a tragedy. The poor girl was evidently unstable from the get go. Also a fanatic Lutheran. She told F1 he would go to hell because only Lutherans, not Calvinists, went to heaven. And after the White Woman of the Hohenzollern incident, well, that was that. She died insane in Mecklenburg.
Frank Göse: RIP. Let's say something of grandson's two more famous accusations, to wit, that F1 while pumping money into courtly splendour and art didn't give any to his subjects suffering from the plague.
Werner Schmidt: Total slander and untrue. He provided 100 000 Taler, which are 20 Million Deutsche Marks in modern currency (that I don't use Euros tells you my book can't have been published for the first time in 2003), for the plague victims' families and rebuilding of Prussia. Grandson's claim that F1 oppressed the poor to feed the rich is also - well, rich. Look, F2, F1 had his luxury goods made in Brandenburg if at all possible, and thus encouraged the local economy, which took a hit at first when FW took over and immediately cut off all court orders. Also, someone who built his palaces with Silesian marble and brought three wars on Prussia is not in a position to talk about taking care of the poor, F2!
Frank Göse: With you except that we have to grant that the administration was in a terrible state when Wartenberg was toppled and FW needed a lot of work to make up for that. Also, he solved the problem of no more work for artisans, craftsmen, tailors, bakeries etc. by increasing the need for army supplies as we all now.
Werner Schmnidt: Oh, and as for grandson F2 quipping that if only the priests had offered F1 more ceremonies, F1 wouldn't have remained a Calvinist but converted, that just shows you how he sacrificed truth for a quip, truly his grandmother's grandson in this. a) F1 would never have converted. The Pope, having succeeded in making August the Strong a Catholic as the prize for making him a king, did try, holding out the lure of a papal coronation, and F1 said never. He was sincere in his faith.
Frank Göse: So he was. Also, b) you can't beat the Catholics for ceremony, especially for coronations, just ask MT or Joseph. So what's this "if the priests had offered more ceremonies"? F1 knew all about those ceremonies and said no anyway. Grandson was just incapable of granting him a single virtue, even that of sincere religion.
Werner Schmidt: Should we say something about F1's relationship with FW? You do it, because I'm oddly silent on the subject. While you're going on to become an FW specialist.
Frank Göse: Err. Well. I don't say much. Because we don't have much material to judge it on. No famous arguments, unlike in any other generation of Hohenzollern. F1 left the arguing with teachers and the instructing of same to Sophie Charlotte. He worried about his son and was proud of him, but he was a distant Dad, though no more so than usual for a king and a prince. As FW got older, it became ever more blatant they did not enjoy the same things, and FW was drawn to people likeOld Young Dessaur who could provide him with all the manly military stuff his father lacked, but there were no insults said about the father from the son or from the father about the sun. Basically, Crown Prince FW was at Wusterhausen living the country life most of the time. I do think he was more emotionally invested in his mother, for all that he believed in the patriarchy.
Werner Schmidt: I'm ending my book by saying that this lonely man who never found true love again after his first wife died, and who was ridiculed as a cripple all his life - "Humpback Fritz", the people called him - still managed to create a kingdom and solidify it at an age where Louis the supreme honcho of France just kept ruining his with his endless wars, August and Max Emmanuel, see above, and the Medici, let's not even go there. Long live Wobbie F1!
selenak can show you her pics of Nymphenburg which Max Emmanuel built in Munich, and you've seen Dresden, where August left his mark. Both Max Emmanuel and August also weren't content with being Princes Elector, they wanted to become Kings. Hell, Max Emmanuel wanted to be Emperor! That's how he ended up on the French side in the Spanish War of Succession and Eugene & Marlborough kicked his butt at Blenheim/Blindheim/Höchstedt! Which is in Bavaria, and Bavaria suffered for those armies marching through just half a century after the 30 Years War, which was hardly recovery time! As for August, he changed his religion to get his hands on Poland. That's how eager he was to all himself King! And then he pissed off Charles XII, which resulted in the Scouring of Saxony (Swedish variation). What I'm getting at: August and Max Emmanuel get called art loving powerful Baroque princes.My guy Friedrich, by contrast, gets bashed as a ridiculous money wasting prince making himself the laughing stock of Europe with his wanting to become a King. Yet are the baroque buildings from the F1 era any lesser than those in Bavaria and Saxony, huh? While Brandenburg never ever suffered from being scoured or marched through (until grandson's time anyway). Not for lack of war. F1 was participating in wars for 22 of the 25 years of his rule, which is way more than son and grandson put together. But he participated in other people's wars, ELSEWHERE, and got a crown out of it because the Emperor really needed those Prussian troops. To return to my point: Max Emmanuel, August and F1 were all big baroque spenders. Only Bavarians and Saxons suffered while this was going on, while Prussians profited, yet my guy...Frank Göse: Excuse me. I also think he got understimated and that he needs to be compared to his contemporaries, not to his son and grandson, but we have to acknowledge that his subjects did suffer in the three W era, despite the lack of an invasion.
Werner Schmidt:. But we're not there yet! For the first 13 years of F1's rule, his PM was Danckelmann. As in, former shouty teacher, prodigy, austere proto Prussian. Since he started as an ordinary citizen, the nobility hated his guts. The Secret Council was jealous as hell, and lobbied against him. But what really did him in was one woman's hate. Yes, Figuelotte, I'm blaming this one on you! Welll, on you and F1's unresolved issues with a teacher he'd admired and feared and who made him translate "Fritz will always be an ass" into Latin.
Frank Göse: While I wouldn't deny Sophie Charlotte came to dislike Danckelmann intensely, I think her part in his downfall was exaggarated by later Hohenzollern historians. As was her political influence in general, as opposed to her cultural one. She also disliked Danckelmann's successor Wartenberg, and Wartenberg remained on top till the last two years of F1's life, and it was her son who did him in.
Werner Schmidt: You're far too easy on her. Let's state for the record she hated Danckelmann because he saw through her. Remember how we've said that primogeniture hadn't become the self evident princple in the German principalities yet and that the Elector near the end of his life was trying to get a secondogeniture thing going? Well, Hannover, newly coined electorate that it was, also had the problem of lots of sons. However, Sophie's husband Ernst August had no intention of letting his newly united realm be hacked into tiny principality pieces once he died. Which is why he changed the law so that his oldest, George Louis, future G1, would inherit it all. Now, this was not in Prussia's interest, since until then Hannover & Brandenburg had been in the same playing field, but an undivided with that intriguing British prospect on the horizon would be more powerful. So Danckelmann encouraged some Hannoverian councillors to make a move preventing primogeniture to become law in Hannover. However, Figuelotte learned about this and warned Mom and Dad what was coming, thereby proving she loved Hannover more. Since Dad had one of the councillors executed, which ended opposition to primogeniture becoming law in Hannover, she also had blood on her hands! And when Danckelmann basically called her a treacherous bitch, she dared to resent him for it!
Frank Göse: I dare say she also resented him for being in charge of FW's educational schedule for the first few years, especially once presented with the results, i.e. Tiny Terror FW.
Werner Schmidt: That's what she claimed in her letters to Mom, but I don't believe her. She was being hysterical and trying to justify her hate. Not very philosophical of this so-called "Philosopher Queen".
Frank Göse: My point stands: while she undoubtedly cheered when Danckelmann fell, she wasn't the primary mover, nor did she profit from it. The guy moving into that power vacuum was Wartenberg, not Sophie Charlotte.
Werner Schmidt: I'm also blaming her for this. If she'd just shown more political interest, F1, who adored her, would not have needed Wartenberg and listened to her instead. But no! Madame preferred having debates with Leipniz and getting on with her Athens-on-the-Spree program .
Frank Göse: Blaming her both for intervening in the political arena (Danckelmann) and not intervening (Wartenberg) as a way of explaining why she disliked both yet only one fell within her life time is a bit illogical.
Werner Schmidt: I also do the psychological thing which you don't and declare that the way Danckelmann fell, the arrest, the years locked up before he was released, the multiple accusations which were plainly ridiculous were not only the the work of his enemies but of F1's subconscious. Freud would have totally gone for the delayed oedipal father figure killing explanation there. Moving on to the three W's. They were scum.
Frank Göse: Beg to differ.
Werner Schmidt: They were! Exploiting my fave woobie because he needed affection and respect and sure as hell wasn't getting it from his wife.
Frank Göse: Incidentally, we both agree that while F1 loved Sophie Charlotte, Figuelotte after the first few years did not love him, only I see this not as coldness on her part but the result of both of them being very different. And growing up. Remember, she'd been only sixteen when she married him. She'd liked him, and he might even have been a romantic figure to her - the persecuted, grieving prince - , papering over the fact he was handicapped, not physically attractive to her, not as quick verbally, a devout Calvinist where she was more into philosophy, someone who rose early while she was a night owl, who loved ceremonies which bored her. In short, he was the EC to her Fritz, only the power differential was the reverse. So she took some tobacco to snuff while he had his coronation ceremony at Königsberg to make fun of all the earnest pomposity -
Werner Schmidt: The most meaningful achievement of his life to him! She hardly could have hurt him more!
Frank Göse: That's your speculation, and you don't provide any quote from him to prove he was hurt.
Werner Schmidt: I don't need it, I know his soul. I also completely believe that story about her making fun of his size and don't consider it apocryphal, unlike you. After all, we do have her calling him "my Aesop" in one of her few preserved letters, and given Aesop had a hunchback, that just shows how she was. Like her grandson, indeed. But let's get on to the scum. Wartenberg:. the worst of the worst. Typical evil favourite. The only good thing he ever did as PM was uniting the various parts of Berlin with each other and making it the Berlin it was in Fritz' time. Otherwise, he just took money and offices, unlike Danckelmann was careful enough to let himself be made Reichsgraf, which meant he was a peer of the HRE, not just Prussia, which meant that when he did fall, he couldn't end up locked up as well. He also promoted his buddies at his side, like awful Wittgenstein, who was already deeply in debt when Wartenberg hired him, and that scum Wartensleben the Katte Granddad.
Frank Göse: Wartensleben wasn't like the other two Ws. My guy FW's liking for him testifies to that! He only got bitched about initially because the local military noblemen were totally jealous that he got promoted to head of the army over their heads.
Werner Schmidt: I don't think so. Watch me tear Granddad Wartensleben a new one while describing him thus to my readers: Wartensleben reccommended himself through the "galant courtier's life as a condottieri he'd lived" (Koch). He'd fought for and against the French, against the Turks and for the Venetians and finally ended up as leader of the army of Saxe-Gotha. Such a flexible and amoral mind ata the head of the (Prussian) army was for Wartenberg the ideal replacement of a stubborn straight-talker like Barfus.
Frank Göse: As for Wartenberg himself: agreed that he was corrupt. But no more so than the top guys at any Baroque court. Can we agree that contrary to what the gossips claimed and what since got repeated by people through the ages, he did not pimp out his wife as a mistress to F1?
Werner Schmidt: Most def. F1 never slept with her, and no, he didn't take her as a titular mistress, either. That woman was scum, though. After Wartenberg died, she plied her trade in Brussels and died a whore. You know how she and Wartenberg met? She was the daughter of a customs inspector, which legend made an innkeeper. Then she married a royal valet who brought her to Berlin, where she became Wartenberg's mistress. Then Danckelmann made Wartenberg marry her, which was the TRUE reason why Wartenberg hated Danckelmann and jointed the rest of the council who wanted to tumble him.
Frank Göse: Not so. I say these are legends. Sure, the woman loved splendor and power, which as the Pm's wife she had, but might I point out Sophie received her in Hannover? Would Sophie have done that if she'd thought La Wartenberg had been her son-in-law's mistress and the rival of her late beloved daughter?
Werner Schmidt: Sophie also received her own husband's mistress and those of her son and grandson, so that's not exactly a good argument.
Frank Göse: Still, her overall positive description of the Countess paints a more differentiated picture.
Werner Schmidt: Still a female Don Juan, though. Though she said that while her conquests were many, the King, much as she'd liked to, never was among them.
Frank Göse: Let's go back to the part where Figuelotte dies young, only in her early 30s, son FW married SD, and then F1 marries for the third time to secure the succession.
Werner Schmidt: we both agree this last marriage was a tragedy. The poor girl was evidently unstable from the get go. Also a fanatic Lutheran. She told F1 he would go to hell because only Lutherans, not Calvinists, went to heaven. And after the White Woman of the Hohenzollern incident, well, that was that. She died insane in Mecklenburg.
Frank Göse: RIP. Let's say something of grandson's two more famous accusations, to wit, that F1 while pumping money into courtly splendour and art didn't give any to his subjects suffering from the plague.
Werner Schmidt: Total slander and untrue. He provided 100 000 Taler, which are 20 Million Deutsche Marks in modern currency (that I don't use Euros tells you my book can't have been published for the first time in 2003), for the plague victims' families and rebuilding of Prussia. Grandson's claim that F1 oppressed the poor to feed the rich is also - well, rich. Look, F2, F1 had his luxury goods made in Brandenburg if at all possible, and thus encouraged the local economy, which took a hit at first when FW took over and immediately cut off all court orders. Also, someone who built his palaces with Silesian marble and brought three wars on Prussia is not in a position to talk about taking care of the poor, F2!
Frank Göse: With you except that we have to grant that the administration was in a terrible state when Wartenberg was toppled and FW needed a lot of work to make up for that. Also, he solved the problem of no more work for artisans, craftsmen, tailors, bakeries etc. by increasing the need for army supplies as we all now.
Werner Schmnidt: Oh, and as for grandson F2 quipping that if only the priests had offered F1 more ceremonies, F1 wouldn't have remained a Calvinist but converted, that just shows you how he sacrificed truth for a quip, truly his grandmother's grandson in this. a) F1 would never have converted. The Pope, having succeeded in making August the Strong a Catholic as the prize for making him a king, did try, holding out the lure of a papal coronation, and F1 said never. He was sincere in his faith.
Frank Göse: So he was. Also, b) you can't beat the Catholics for ceremony, especially for coronations, just ask MT or Joseph. So what's this "if the priests had offered more ceremonies"? F1 knew all about those ceremonies and said no anyway. Grandson was just incapable of granting him a single virtue, even that of sincere religion.
Werner Schmidt: Should we say something about F1's relationship with FW? You do it, because I'm oddly silent on the subject. While you're going on to become an FW specialist.
Frank Göse: Err. Well. I don't say much. Because we don't have much material to judge it on. No famous arguments, unlike in any other generation of Hohenzollern. F1 left the arguing with teachers and the instructing of same to Sophie Charlotte. He worried about his son and was proud of him, but he was a distant Dad, though no more so than usual for a king and a prince. As FW got older, it became ever more blatant they did not enjoy the same things, and FW was drawn to people like
Werner Schmidt: I'm ending my book by saying that this lonely man who never found true love again after his first wife died, and who was ridiculed as a cripple all his life - "Humpback Fritz", the people called him - still managed to create a kingdom and solidify it at an age where Louis the supreme honcho of France just kept ruining his with his endless wars, August and Max Emmanuel, see above, and the Medici, let's not even go there. Long live Wobbie F1!
Edited 2021-08-04 14:31 (UTC)
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: The Lonely King
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-08 10:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, this was amaaaazing. Did you have as much fun writing it this way as I did reading it? More scholarship should be presented this way, it would be a lot more readable!
has a lengthy talk with Dad and is officially reconciled with him, though how deep that went is anyone's guess
Myeah, we've seen exactly how shallow reconciliations can be.
To return to my point: Max Emmanuel, August and F1 were all big baroque spenders. Only Bavarians and Saxons suffered while this was going on, while Prussians profited, yet my guy...
Look, Fritz had issues to work out.
Welll, on you and F1's unresolved issues with a teacher he'd admired and feared and who made him translate "Fritz will always be an ass" into Latin.
I'm finding it hard to criticize his unresolved issues...
Frank Göse: I dare say she also resented him for being in charge of FW's educational schedule for the first few years, especially once presented with the results, i.e. Tiny Terror FW.
Lol! I would have some objections too!
Frank Göse: Blaming her both for intervening in the political arena (Danckelmann) and not intervening (Wartenberg) as a way of explaining why she disliked both yet only one fell within her life time is a bit illogical.
Good one!
Frank Göse: Wartensleben wasn't like the other two Ws. My guy FW's liking for him testifies to that!
Does Göse present any actual evidence? We've seen what an A+ judge of character FW was.
Werner Schmidt: we both agree this last marriage was a tragedy. The poor girl was evidently unstable from the get go. Also a fanatic Lutheran. She told F1 he would go to hell because only Lutherans, not Calvinists, went to heaven.
Oh, wow. That's hardcore!
Werner Schmidt: Should we say something about F1's relationship with FW? You do it, because I'm oddly silent on the subject. While you're going on to become an FW specialist.
Frank Göse: Err. Well. I don't say much.
Ha!
I do think he was more emotionally invested in his mother, for all that he believed in the patriarchy.
That is very interesting and possibly true!
Werner Schmidt: I'm ending my book by saying that this lonely man who never found true love again after his first wife died, and who was ridiculed as a cripple all his life - "Humpback Fritz", the people called him - still managed to create a kingdom and solidify it at an age where Louis the supreme honcho of France just kept ruining his with his endless wars, August and Max Emmanuel, see above, and the Medici, let's not even go there. Long live Wobbie F1!
Long live the One Man Defense Squad! And long live the Royal Reader, who does a truly royal job of reading and writing!
has a lengthy talk with Dad and is officially reconciled with him, though how deep that went is anyone's guess
Myeah, we've seen exactly how shallow reconciliations can be.
To return to my point: Max Emmanuel, August and F1 were all big baroque spenders. Only Bavarians and Saxons suffered while this was going on, while Prussians profited, yet my guy...
Look, Fritz had issues to work out.
Welll, on you and F1's unresolved issues with a teacher he'd admired and feared and who made him translate "Fritz will always be an ass" into Latin.
I'm finding it hard to criticize his unresolved issues...
Frank Göse: I dare say she also resented him for being in charge of FW's educational schedule for the first few years, especially once presented with the results, i.e. Tiny Terror FW.
Lol! I would have some objections too!
Frank Göse: Blaming her both for intervening in the political arena (Danckelmann) and not intervening (Wartenberg) as a way of explaining why she disliked both yet only one fell within her life time is a bit illogical.
Good one!
Frank Göse: Wartensleben wasn't like the other two Ws. My guy FW's liking for him testifies to that!
Does Göse present any actual evidence? We've seen what an A+ judge of character FW was.
Werner Schmidt: we both agree this last marriage was a tragedy. The poor girl was evidently unstable from the get go. Also a fanatic Lutheran. She told F1 he would go to hell because only Lutherans, not Calvinists, went to heaven.
Oh, wow. That's hardcore!
Werner Schmidt: Should we say something about F1's relationship with FW? You do it, because I'm oddly silent on the subject. While you're going on to become an FW specialist.
Frank Göse: Err. Well. I don't say much.
Ha!
I do think he was more emotionally invested in his mother, for all that he believed in the patriarchy.
That is very interesting and possibly true!
Werner Schmidt: I'm ending my book by saying that this lonely man who never found true love again after his first wife died, and who was ridiculed as a cripple all his life - "Humpback Fritz", the people called him - still managed to create a kingdom and solidify it at an age where Louis the supreme honcho of France just kept ruining his with his endless wars, August and Max Emmanuel, see above, and the Medici, let's not even go there. Long live Wobbie F1!
Long live the One Man Defense Squad! And long live the Royal Reader, who does a truly royal job of reading and writing!
Lol! I would have some objections too!
So no one has to look it up, this is what Sophie Charlotte wrote to Sophie in November 1697:
(F1) now - thanks be to God - has seen so much through him that he has confided all of (Danckelmann's) slander which the later kept muttering against me, firstly by claiming I was more concerned with the house from which I hail than with the one into which I married; secondly he claims I'm arrogant and power mad and yet entirely susceptible to the influences of my surroundings, especially by Count Dohna and Frau von Bülow; and furthely, that nothing good could come out of my son's education if Count Dohna conducted it in the Hannover way. (...) And it wasn't just my son's education where he acted like a true criminal! For he has given him to a governor, who neglected him in accordance with Danckelmann's son and counteracted all the efforts of Count Dohna. Instead of teaching (FW) something good, they both took every effort to encourage his bad moods, and then in order to wash their hands in innocence claimed my son was so viciously disposed that one couldn't possibly achieve anything with him. He's been so neglected in his education that until eight weeks ago he couldn't read or write!
It's worth pointing out - and you bet Werner Schmidt does - that FW upon ascending to the throne rehabilitated Danckelmann. Then again, it was for the charges of corruption etc., not re: anything about his education.
Does Göse present any actual evidence? We've seen what an A+ judge of character FW was.
He says that the two high ranking military guys who resigned in protest when Wartensleben was appointed head of the army clearly were jealous of an outsider being promoted (given that Wartensleben until then had served elsewhere), and that the army was FW's beloved and holy grail, so if he'd been under the impression that Wartensleben, once in command, had fucked with the army, he would never have let it go as opposed to keeping the guy around and treating him like a man of honor. And FW did investigate the three Ws rather thoroughly.
This said, I do like the image of a younger Granddad Wartensleben having been a condottieri with good manners. It also explains something odd I've seen somewhere, I can't remember where, which I kept forgetting to talk with you about, i.e. that it was Granddad Wartensleben who wanted Hans Herrmann to join the army originally while Dad Hans Heinrich's first idea for a career for his son was the law, not the other way around. (Of course, once Katte was in the regiment Gens' D'Armes, Dad was keen on him staying here. But that it had been Gramps who first pushed for the army for grandson. If that was how he himself had made his fortune (literally - let's not forget, Katte's mother had been an heiress), it's not surprising.
That's hardcore!
Indeed. Because the Hohenzollern were Calvinists while the majority of German Protestant were Lutherans, wife 3. had at first been expected to convert ahead of marriage, but when told she didn't want to, F1 had handwaved it, since Lutherans were godly people, too. Finding out quite how seriously she took her faith and the going to hell bit, he found out while taking a stroll with her through the gardens. He refered to someone dead as "der selige" (the late in English, but literally "the blessed"; it's an old fashioned way in German to refer to dead people by now, but my mother still does it on occasion, for example when referring to her parents), and his new Queen corrected him, saying X couldn't possibly be selig since X had been a Calvinist. F1, somewhat stunned: "So if I died, how would you refer to me? You would not call me blessed?"
Queen 3: "Indeed not! Only Lutherans go to heaven. I would refer to you as the dear departed."
That is very interesting and possibly true!
FW and his parents are really a bit of a riddle. I mean, one the one hand, you can draw conclusions from how they were, as a woman and wife and as a man, husband and monarch, exactly how he didn't think a woman and a man should be, and his life style and the way he wanted his kids to be taught was a direct rejection of theirs. Otoh, he didn't critisize them (and FW was never one to hide his feelings for long) in public, we don't have any letters (say, to his buddy Dessauer) where he rants about them in private, either, just the unreliable story from Morgenstern of a young drunk FW shortly after his coronation saying F1 hadn't been his father and how could anyone believe such a weak man had been, only to be cautioned by a general that in this case,FW would not a legal monarch, which since it supposedly took place decades before Morgenstern came to court really is very unlikely. And FW did try to make his parents happy while they lived (and beyond, in F1's case with the funeral). For his mother, this included hunting down some paintings he thought she'd like in the Netherlands, and reading French novels she wanted to discuss with him (an activity he immediately stopped once she was dead; he certainly didn't do it for SD!). Plus of course, FW and his parents had one circumstance all the other combinations did not, which was him as an only son. Only child, almost, save for F1's daughter from his first marriage who, like her mother, died young and just a few years after marrying, and FW hadn't really been raised with her between the age gap, him spending early childhood time at Hannover and her marrying early.) Parents & only child make for a different dynamic than a family with lots of siblings.
Long live the One Man Defense Squad! And long live the Royal Reader, who does a truly royal job of reading and writing!
*bows*
So no one has to look it up, this is what Sophie Charlotte wrote to Sophie in November 1697:
(F1) now - thanks be to God - has seen so much through him that he has confided all of (Danckelmann's) slander which the later kept muttering against me, firstly by claiming I was more concerned with the house from which I hail than with the one into which I married; secondly he claims I'm arrogant and power mad and yet entirely susceptible to the influences of my surroundings, especially by Count Dohna and Frau von Bülow; and furthely, that nothing good could come out of my son's education if Count Dohna conducted it in the Hannover way. (...) And it wasn't just my son's education where he acted like a true criminal! For he has given him to a governor, who neglected him in accordance with Danckelmann's son and counteracted all the efforts of Count Dohna. Instead of teaching (FW) something good, they both took every effort to encourage his bad moods, and then in order to wash their hands in innocence claimed my son was so viciously disposed that one couldn't possibly achieve anything with him. He's been so neglected in his education that until eight weeks ago he couldn't read or write!
It's worth pointing out - and you bet Werner Schmidt does - that FW upon ascending to the throne rehabilitated Danckelmann. Then again, it was for the charges of corruption etc., not re: anything about his education.
Does Göse present any actual evidence? We've seen what an A+ judge of character FW was.
He says that the two high ranking military guys who resigned in protest when Wartensleben was appointed head of the army clearly were jealous of an outsider being promoted (given that Wartensleben until then had served elsewhere), and that the army was FW's beloved and holy grail, so if he'd been under the impression that Wartensleben, once in command, had fucked with the army, he would never have let it go as opposed to keeping the guy around and treating him like a man of honor. And FW did investigate the three Ws rather thoroughly.
This said, I do like the image of a younger Granddad Wartensleben having been a condottieri with good manners. It also explains something odd I've seen somewhere, I can't remember where, which I kept forgetting to talk with you about, i.e. that it was Granddad Wartensleben who wanted Hans Herrmann to join the army originally while Dad Hans Heinrich's first idea for a career for his son was the law, not the other way around. (Of course, once Katte was in the regiment Gens' D'Armes, Dad was keen on him staying here. But that it had been Gramps who first pushed for the army for grandson. If that was how he himself had made his fortune (literally - let's not forget, Katte's mother had been an heiress), it's not surprising.
That's hardcore!
Indeed. Because the Hohenzollern were Calvinists while the majority of German Protestant were Lutherans, wife 3. had at first been expected to convert ahead of marriage, but when told she didn't want to, F1 had handwaved it, since Lutherans were godly people, too. Finding out quite how seriously she took her faith and the going to hell bit, he found out while taking a stroll with her through the gardens. He refered to someone dead as "der selige" (the late in English, but literally "the blessed"; it's an old fashioned way in German to refer to dead people by now, but my mother still does it on occasion, for example when referring to her parents), and his new Queen corrected him, saying X couldn't possibly be selig since X had been a Calvinist. F1, somewhat stunned: "So if I died, how would you refer to me? You would not call me blessed?"
Queen 3: "Indeed not! Only Lutherans go to heaven. I would refer to you as the dear departed."
That is very interesting and possibly true!
FW and his parents are really a bit of a riddle. I mean, one the one hand, you can draw conclusions from how they were, as a woman and wife and as a man, husband and monarch, exactly how he didn't think a woman and a man should be, and his life style and the way he wanted his kids to be taught was a direct rejection of theirs. Otoh, he didn't critisize them (and FW was never one to hide his feelings for long) in public, we don't have any letters (say, to his buddy Dessauer) where he rants about them in private, either, just the unreliable story from Morgenstern of a young drunk FW shortly after his coronation saying F1 hadn't been his father and how could anyone believe such a weak man had been, only to be cautioned by a general that in this case,FW would not a legal monarch, which since it supposedly took place decades before Morgenstern came to court really is very unlikely. And FW did try to make his parents happy while they lived (and beyond, in F1's case with the funeral). For his mother, this included hunting down some paintings he thought she'd like in the Netherlands, and reading French novels she wanted to discuss with him (an activity he immediately stopped once she was dead; he certainly didn't do it for SD!). Plus of course, FW and his parents had one circumstance all the other combinations did not, which was him as an only son. Only child, almost, save for F1's daughter from his first marriage who, like her mother, died young and just a few years after marrying, and FW hadn't really been raised with her between the age gap, him spending early childhood time at Hannover and her marrying early.) Parents & only child make for a different dynamic than a family with lots of siblings.
Long live the One Man Defense Squad! And long live the Royal Reader, who does a truly royal job of reading and writing!
*bows*
Re: Once Upon A Time in Brandenburg: The Lonely King
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-10 11:58 pm (UTC)(link)
It also explains something odd I've seen somewhere, I can't remember where, which I kept forgetting to talk with you about, i.e. that it was Granddad Wartensleben who wanted Hans Herrmann to join the army originally while Dad Hans Heinrich's first idea for a career for his son was the law, not the other way around.
Ooh, that is odd. I mean, I already had it in my head (from Wilhelmine?) that HH wanted his son to go into law, but I didn't have any idea what Wartensleben's opinion was. But if that's how he'd made his fortune, that does make sense, yep!
F1, somewhat stunned: "So if I died, how would you refer to me? You would not call me blessed?"
Queen 3: "Indeed not! Only Lutherans go to heaven. I would refer to you as the dear departed."
I would be rather stunned, yes!
Ooh, that is odd. I mean, I already had it in my head (from Wilhelmine?) that HH wanted his son to go into law, but I didn't have any idea what Wartensleben's opinion was. But if that's how he'd made his fortune, that does make sense, yep!
F1, somewhat stunned: "So if I died, how would you refer to me? You would not call me blessed?"
Queen 3: "Indeed not! Only Lutherans go to heaven. I would refer to you as the dear departed."
I would be rather stunned, yes!
Huh, I wonder how FW turned out so much like how he did. I suppose nature has to be blamed for some of it, but do we blame Danckelmann for the rest? (It sounds like Göse does..)
Instead of teaching (FW) something good, they both took every effort to encourage his bad moods, and then in order to wash their hands in innocence claimed my son was so viciously disposed that one couldn't possibly achieve anything with him. He's been so neglected in his education that until eight weeks ago he couldn't read or write!
I mean, this does sound pretty damning.
"Indeed not! Only Lutherans go to heaven. I would refer to you as the dear departed."
So I feel like my reaction to this maybe a bit nonstandard -- I thought it was hilarious. ...Probably because I spent a couple of my high school years being told I was going to hell (not... super seriously, but several of my friends went to a Baptist church that taught that you would go to hell unless you were a Baptist AND baptized in exactly the way that this church did it; our other Baptist friends were also going to hell. Mormons were Right Out, of course. We joked that hell was going to be WAY more fun!)
(That is to say, if someone told me that they would refer to me as the dear departed and not the blessed today, in 2021, I would be rather amused -- but I can see that it was a much bigger deal back then.)
Instead of teaching (FW) something good, they both took every effort to encourage his bad moods, and then in order to wash their hands in innocence claimed my son was so viciously disposed that one couldn't possibly achieve anything with him. He's been so neglected in his education that until eight weeks ago he couldn't read or write!
I mean, this does sound pretty damning.
"Indeed not! Only Lutherans go to heaven. I would refer to you as the dear departed."
So I feel like my reaction to this maybe a bit nonstandard -- I thought it was hilarious. ...Probably because I spent a couple of my high school years being told I was going to hell (not... super seriously, but several of my friends went to a Baptist church that taught that you would go to hell unless you were a Baptist AND baptized in exactly the way that this church did it; our other Baptist friends were also going to hell. Mormons were Right Out, of course. We joked that hell was going to be WAY more fun!)
(That is to say, if someone told me that they would refer to me as the dear departed and not the blessed today, in 2021, I would be rather amused -- but I can see that it was a much bigger deal back then.)
I suppose nature has to be blamed for some of it, but do we blame Danckelmann for the rest?
Well, some of it, sure, especially since Danckelmann's preached principles (austerity, monogamy, discipline, work, work, work) align with FW's. Though it should be noted Danckelmann was busy being PM and governing the country, i.e. he wasn't FW's teacher directly the way he'd been F1's, he was in charge of choosing the teachers. And it's also possible Figuelotte was exaggarating with the "didn't know how to read and write until eight weeks ago", though I'm perfectly willing to believe he was way behind schedule and that the teachers pretended otherwise until called to task, because they didn't know how to handle a hyperactive prince capable of beating up his older cousin and (though this had not happened yet but would in the future when he was 15 and strong enough) throughing one of them out of the window. Never forget this is a highly tricky situation because this isn't a student like any other, he's socially above them, their future lord and master and knows it, and he's the only prince around. The only heir. If anything happens to him, they're screwed. All reasons to hesitate disciplining the child the way it happened to Third Son F1.
Conversely, someone managed to make the kid dance ballet, evidently, and sit still to pose for pictures, both things he did not want to do but did nonetheless. Though I think timing wise that was the teacher after the Danckelmann appointments, the one who lastingly put the fear of God and predestination into Tiny Terror FW. And let's not forget - the first teacher was the governess Madame de Roucoulles, the very one he'd later make Fritz' governess as well. Having had the same goveness still did not produce identical results in FW and Fritz, any more than Danckelmann had the same effect on F1 and FW.
Only Lutherans go to heaven: well, I smiled, too, while understanding that F1 - not the youngest anymore, plagued by a weak constitution his entire life, i.e. aware he might die sooner rather than later - did not.
Well, some of it, sure, especially since Danckelmann's preached principles (austerity, monogamy, discipline, work, work, work) align with FW's. Though it should be noted Danckelmann was busy being PM and governing the country, i.e. he wasn't FW's teacher directly the way he'd been F1's, he was in charge of choosing the teachers. And it's also possible Figuelotte was exaggarating with the "didn't know how to read and write until eight weeks ago", though I'm perfectly willing to believe he was way behind schedule and that the teachers pretended otherwise until called to task, because they didn't know how to handle a hyperactive prince capable of beating up his older cousin and (though this had not happened yet but would in the future when he was 15 and strong enough) throughing one of them out of the window. Never forget this is a highly tricky situation because this isn't a student like any other, he's socially above them, their future lord and master and knows it, and he's the only prince around. The only heir. If anything happens to him, they're screwed. All reasons to hesitate disciplining the child the way it happened to Third Son F1.
Conversely, someone managed to make the kid dance ballet, evidently, and sit still to pose for pictures, both things he did not want to do but did nonetheless. Though I think timing wise that was the teacher after the Danckelmann appointments, the one who lastingly put the fear of God and predestination into Tiny Terror FW. And let's not forget - the first teacher was the governess Madame de Roucoulles, the very one he'd later make Fritz' governess as well. Having had the same goveness still did not produce identical results in FW and Fritz, any more than Danckelmann had the same effect on F1 and FW.
Only Lutherans go to heaven: well, I smiled, too, while understanding that F1 - not the youngest anymore, plagued by a weak constitution his entire life, i.e. aware he might die sooner rather than later - did not.
Ohh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense; even these days my understanding is that there can be quite a lot of... lack of discipline of rich kids in private school.
Yeah, I can see that F1 would... not like that very much!
Yeah, I can see that F1 would... not like that very much!
(I'm back! :D ) This is amazing, I absolutely adored the author convo :D
I dare say she also resented him for being in charge of FW's educational schedule for the first few years, especially once presented with the results, i.e. Tiny Terror FW.
I MEAN. Who wouldn't resent him for that??
Frank Göse: Blaming her both for intervening in the political arena (Danckelmann) and not intervening (Wartenberg) as a way of explaining why she disliked both yet only one fell within her life time is a bit illogical.
heeeee! Thank you for pointing this out, Göse :D
In short, he was the EC to her Fritz, only the power differential was the reverse.
Oh, huh, that's interesting.
Werner Schmidt: I don't need it, I know his soul.
BWAHAHAHAHA! Okay, if biographers actually said that when they were saying unsourced things, reading biographies would be a lot more fun!
After all, we do have her calling him "my Aesop" in one of her few preserved letters, and given Aesop had a hunchback, that just shows how she was.
But... but... Aesop is known for other things other than having a hunchback! I'm just saying, Schmidt.
and as for grandson F2 quipping that if only the priests had offered F1 more ceremonies
Me: But... I may not know history, but I have been to a few different churches in my time, and Catholics are all about really fancy ceremonies! Lots of them! Way more than the Lutherans!
Göse: I hear you.
but there were no insults said about the father from the son or from the father about the son.
Well, that's pretty different, actually, right?
I dare say she also resented him for being in charge of FW's educational schedule for the first few years, especially once presented with the results, i.e. Tiny Terror FW.
I MEAN. Who wouldn't resent him for that??
Frank Göse: Blaming her both for intervening in the political arena (Danckelmann) and not intervening (Wartenberg) as a way of explaining why she disliked both yet only one fell within her life time is a bit illogical.
heeeee! Thank you for pointing this out, Göse :D
In short, he was the EC to her Fritz, only the power differential was the reverse.
Oh, huh, that's interesting.
Werner Schmidt: I don't need it, I know his soul.
BWAHAHAHAHA! Okay, if biographers actually said that when they were saying unsourced things, reading biographies would be a lot more fun!
After all, we do have her calling him "my Aesop" in one of her few preserved letters, and given Aesop had a hunchback, that just shows how she was.
But... but... Aesop is known for other things other than having a hunchback! I'm just saying, Schmidt.
and as for grandson F2 quipping that if only the priests had offered F1 more ceremonies
Me: But... I may not know history, but I have been to a few different churches in my time, and Catholics are all about really fancy ceremonies! Lots of them! Way more than the Lutherans!
Göse: I hear you.
but there were no insults said about the father from the son or from the father about the son.
Well, that's pretty different, actually, right?
also read in the last week while waiting for RMSE: Montesquieu, both the German travels and the Roman history with Fritzian commentary, which was possible since both were short.
The German travels were something of a let down, mostly due to the preface which hypes Montesquieu as super insightful and foreshadowing, and sorry, but no. Even leaving aside that his anti FW rant, as Mildred noted, might have an amusing one liner but completely misses FW is building up the most modern and dangerous army of Europe and strengthening his country's economy (instead, we get the wishful thinking description of Prussia as North Korea, essentially, with everyone in dire poverty and leaving the country by droves - immigrants like the huguenots from France or the Protestants from Salzburg, who were just resettling in Brandenburg, remain unmentioned because Montesquieu has an incredible Catholic bias, more about this in a minute) - even leaving all this aside: he's an amazingly easy sell for propaganda by rulers who receive him. So G2 is a ruler loved by his German and English subjects alike....
Hervey and Walpole the younger, not to mention lots of Scots, well, to be fair, they aren't English: *gigantic coughing fit*
...who easily got the better of FW in their big clash.
(Meanwhile, Hervey in his memoirs: From first to last, they both managed to be equally in the wrong, and no one won.)
The Duke of Brunswick and his family live with their subjects as equals. Which tells you all about Montesquieu the French aristocrat, I suppose, and what he thinks is modesty. Now given all of SD's and Charlotte's disses of EC when EC was engaged to Fritz might lead one to think the Brunswicks were indeed modest, but then again, young AnhaltSophie, aka Catherine the Great, thought that court was the most splendid she saw in her youth, and she did see Berlin in her youth, not to mention that when she's writing her memoirs, she's lived in Russian style and riches for decades.
Also, there's a lot of "ethonographic" stuff, i.e. Germans in general are slower than quick witted French people, and Bavarians are the most stupid, slowest Germans of all. (That would be me.) (More seriously, remember that I mentioned elsewhere Bavaria had the bad luck of suffering for Max Emmanuel's teaming up with the French in the Spanish war of succession (= battlefield country) and still spending money like wild, so I have no doubt it was a more backward principality in general than some of the others. As for Montesquieu's general "slowness" and "thickness" complaints, I'm assuming he spoke French to everyone, meaning most people he talked to were talking in a foreign language, since he didn't talk to Prussian Huguenots or their descendants....
Seriously, though: something downright chilling is Montesquieu thinking the Westphalian Peace which concluded the 30 Years War (again, the bloodiest, most devastating Europe would see until the 20th century), which had depopulated the German realms in some cases by half, in some by a third was a big mistake because "it ruined Catholicism in Germany". He also thinks the Emperor should only promote Catholics and only allow Catholics to serve him, that would get young Protestant nobles to convert quick enough, that the Habsburgs have lost their claim of leading Catholicism in Europe because this isn't the case, and that if you're just tougher on those Protestants again the Catholic religion will triumph after all. It's a constant theme in his letters and notes (due to a lot of German Protestants) which the occasional aphorism, a fascination for federalism and for a good (aristocratic) legislative don't make up for, imo. As aristocratic travellers of the era (first half of the 18th century) go, give me Lady Mary instead any time. Or the Duc de Croy. They also have their likes and dislikes, but they strike me as way more observant and insightful than Montesquieu.
The German travels were something of a let down, mostly due to the preface which hypes Montesquieu as super insightful and foreshadowing, and sorry, but no. Even leaving aside that his anti FW rant, as Mildred noted, might have an amusing one liner but completely misses FW is building up the most modern and dangerous army of Europe and strengthening his country's economy (instead, we get the wishful thinking description of Prussia as North Korea, essentially, with everyone in dire poverty and leaving the country by droves - immigrants like the huguenots from France or the Protestants from Salzburg, who were just resettling in Brandenburg, remain unmentioned because Montesquieu has an incredible Catholic bias, more about this in a minute) - even leaving all this aside: he's an amazingly easy sell for propaganda by rulers who receive him. So G2 is a ruler loved by his German and English subjects alike....
Hervey and Walpole the younger, not to mention lots of Scots, well, to be fair, they aren't English: *gigantic coughing fit*
...who easily got the better of FW in their big clash.
(Meanwhile, Hervey in his memoirs: From first to last, they both managed to be equally in the wrong, and no one won.)
The Duke of Brunswick and his family live with their subjects as equals. Which tells you all about Montesquieu the French aristocrat, I suppose, and what he thinks is modesty. Now given all of SD's and Charlotte's disses of EC when EC was engaged to Fritz might lead one to think the Brunswicks were indeed modest, but then again, young AnhaltSophie, aka Catherine the Great, thought that court was the most splendid she saw in her youth, and she did see Berlin in her youth, not to mention that when she's writing her memoirs, she's lived in Russian style and riches for decades.
Also, there's a lot of "ethonographic" stuff, i.e. Germans in general are slower than quick witted French people, and Bavarians are the most stupid, slowest Germans of all. (That would be me.) (More seriously, remember that I mentioned elsewhere Bavaria had the bad luck of suffering for Max Emmanuel's teaming up with the French in the Spanish war of succession (= battlefield country) and still spending money like wild, so I have no doubt it was a more backward principality in general than some of the others. As for Montesquieu's general "slowness" and "thickness" complaints, I'm assuming he spoke French to everyone, meaning most people he talked to were talking in a foreign language, since he didn't talk to Prussian Huguenots or their descendants....
Seriously, though: something downright chilling is Montesquieu thinking the Westphalian Peace which concluded the 30 Years War (again, the bloodiest, most devastating Europe would see until the 20th century), which had depopulated the German realms in some cases by half, in some by a third was a big mistake because "it ruined Catholicism in Germany". He also thinks the Emperor should only promote Catholics and only allow Catholics to serve him, that would get young Protestant nobles to convert quick enough, that the Habsburgs have lost their claim of leading Catholicism in Europe because this isn't the case, and that if you're just tougher on those Protestants again the Catholic religion will triumph after all. It's a constant theme in his letters and notes (due to a lot of German Protestants) which the occasional aphorism, a fascination for federalism and for a good (aristocratic) legislative don't make up for, imo. As aristocratic travellers of the era (first half of the 18th century) go, give me Lady Mary instead any time. Or the Duc de Croy. They also have their likes and dislikes, but they strike me as way more observant and insightful than Montesquieu.
Edited 2021-08-06 07:53 (UTC)
Re: Montesquieu I: How not to travel through Germany in the first half of the 18th Century
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-07 10:52 pm (UTC)(link)
ARGH. I was hoping for more gossipy sensationalism at best, ideally some tidbits relevant to our interests, and at worst, some inspiration for you to teach us more about German principalities (which is why I wanted you to read it for us, because even if I finish it, my background knowledge is far sketchier than yours, and I don't have awesome pictures of waterworks.)
Also, there's a lot of "ethonographic" stuff, i.e. Germans in general are slower than quick witted French people, and Bavarians are the most stupid, slowest Germans of all. (That would be me.)
I'm sorry you had to read this. :( Although I *am* having a bit of a chuckle imagining what the OTHER Germans are like, if you're the slowest and stupidest. *g* Einsteins and Michelangelos, the lot of them.
As for Montesquieu's general "slowness" and "thickness" complaints, I'm assuming he spoke French to everyone, meaning most people he talked to were talking in a foreign language, since he didn't talk to Prussian Huguenots or their descendants....
I'm reminded of your headcanon for why Fredersdorf didn't want to speak French to Fritz. I'm also reminded of this bit by Eddie Izzard:
English people in general have a problem. We tend to go into the world, going, “Hello, hello… Hello, do you speak English? Hello!” You know, in Afghanistan. “Hello, sausage, egg and chips, please… A sausage, egg and chips. Okay, two sausages. Do you speak English? You just don’t try, do you?! Here all day speaking Afghan…”
Here all day speaking German... :P
As aristocratic travellers of the era (first half of the 18th century) go, give me Lady Mary instead any time. Or the Duc de Croy. They also have their likes and dislikes, but they strike me as way more observant and insightful than Montesquieu.
Yeah, I can see why. Alas! Well, I'm glad it was only a library copy and you didn't fork over for it.
Also, there's a lot of "ethonographic" stuff, i.e. Germans in general are slower than quick witted French people, and Bavarians are the most stupid, slowest Germans of all. (That would be me.)
I'm sorry you had to read this. :( Although I *am* having a bit of a chuckle imagining what the OTHER Germans are like, if you're the slowest and stupidest. *g* Einsteins and Michelangelos, the lot of them.
As for Montesquieu's general "slowness" and "thickness" complaints, I'm assuming he spoke French to everyone, meaning most people he talked to were talking in a foreign language, since he didn't talk to Prussian Huguenots or their descendants....
I'm reminded of your headcanon for why Fredersdorf didn't want to speak French to Fritz. I'm also reminded of this bit by Eddie Izzard:
English people in general have a problem. We tend to go into the world, going, “Hello, hello… Hello, do you speak English? Hello!” You know, in Afghanistan. “Hello, sausage, egg and chips, please… A sausage, egg and chips. Okay, two sausages. Do you speak English? You just don’t try, do you?! Here all day speaking Afghan…”
Here all day speaking German... :P
As aristocratic travellers of the era (first half of the 18th century) go, give me Lady Mary instead any time. Or the Duc de Croy. They also have their likes and dislikes, but they strike me as way more observant and insightful than Montesquieu.
Yeah, I can see why. Alas! Well, I'm glad it was only a library copy and you didn't fork over for it.
I'm sorry you had to read this.
My dear, I exposed you to more than one Fritzian diss of Canadian savages; it's okay. It's just that previous travelogues had spoiled me, and the preface does unduly hype.
One bit perhaps of (sad) interest: Montesquieu when writing about MT's mother says tactfully she "still bears traces of the greatest beauty of any princess in Europe" in 1728, when he meets her. Lady Mary when meeting her in 1717 (when she was pregnant with MT) did describe her as the most beautiful princess she's seen in Europe. (Which, btw, means she considers young Elisabeth Christine the first more beautiful than Caroline, whom she does know.) This is what all the quack cures and "diets" and of course the pregnancies and stillbirths did in a decade.
My dear, I exposed you to more than one Fritzian diss of Canadian savages; it's okay. It's just that previous travelogues had spoiled me, and the preface does unduly hype.
One bit perhaps of (sad) interest: Montesquieu when writing about MT's mother says tactfully she "still bears traces of the greatest beauty of any princess in Europe" in 1728, when he meets her. Lady Mary when meeting her in 1717 (when she was pregnant with MT) did describe her as the most beautiful princess she's seen in Europe. (Which, btw, means she considers young Elisabeth Christine the first more beautiful than Caroline, whom she does know.) This is what all the quack cures and "diets" and of course the pregnancies and stillbirths did in a decade.
Re: Montesquieu I: How not to travel through Germany in the first half of the 18th Century
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-08 06:10 pm (UTC)(link)
My dear, I exposed you to more than one Fritzian diss of Canadian savages;
Lol, that's completely different! (Plus I had run into more than one before I met you, I think I was the one who pointed out Fritz's opinions there. You were just the one who made it memorably hilarious with your Rheinsberg ghost ficlet. :P)
Anyway, I'm sorry it was a letdown. I guess we've been spoiled by random books turning out to be amazing or have amazing discoveries over and over again.
This is what all the quack cures and "diets" and of course the pregnancies and stillbirths did in a decade.
That is sad. I hope the food and alcohol and porn were enjoyable while they lasted, because that was a high price to pay for them. :(
Lol, that's completely different! (Plus I had run into more than one before I met you, I think I was the one who pointed out Fritz's opinions there. You were just the one who made it memorably hilarious with your Rheinsberg ghost ficlet. :P)
Anyway, I'm sorry it was a letdown. I guess we've been spoiled by random books turning out to be amazing or have amazing discoveries over and over again.
This is what all the quack cures and "diets" and of course the pregnancies and stillbirths did in a decade.
That is sad. I hope the food and alcohol and porn were enjoyable while they lasted, because that was a high price to pay for them. :(
Although I *am* having a bit of a chuckle imagining what the OTHER Germans are like, if you're the slowest and stupidest. *g* Einsteins and Michelangelos, the lot of them.
Right?!
Right?!
On to the Romans. This book, which was partly triggered by Montesquieu visiting Italy on the same journey, is way more fun, and not just because of the Fritz notes. In both cases, though, it's worth constantly keeping in mind Montesquieu is writing from the pov of a conservative French aristocrat, who despite all the compliments paid to Louis XIV regrets Louis' declawing of the French nobility to no end. (Louis revoking the Edict of Nantes and persecuting Protestants, otoh, is A plus.) All the observations on Roman decadence thus also have the subtext of criticism of current day France without getting censored for it. (Which, btw, isn't that different from Roman historians putting their present day criticism into the mouth of "barbarian" leaders and/or waxing on on how much better the ancestors did it.) Thus, Rome was doing well when the wise Patrician Senate was in charge, creating the Tribunes was already a step in the wrong direction, and naturally once the Empire came to be and the Senate devolved into a rubber stamp for imperial decisions, while the Emperors were except for five of them no good luxury loving parasites, everything went down the toilet.
Something else striking the modern reader is that Montesquieu except for one remark that comes very late into Roman history (we're talking 4th century AD already), and one earlier remark where he sighs Hannibal should have had a Homer to write him, not a Livy, he's not source critical. The introduction is defensive about this and says of course he didn't doubt his Roman historians were telling the truth, he was an ancient writers loving 18th century guy! To which I say, well, so was Voltaire, and his preface to his Charles XII. history is satiric fun about why he doesn't buy what a lot of ancient historians serve up due to the obvious contradictions, and thus he feels at liberty to go for the most likely (in his opinion) explanation there as in more modern histories. Meanwhile, the preface insists Fritz must have known Montesquieu is the much, much deeper writer than Voltaire and wonders why he made Montesquieu an honorable member of the Berlin Academy but didn't invite him, because surely Montesquieu wouldn't have disappointed him the way a certain shallow other French writer did!
Back to "Greatness and Fall of Rome". It is a very stylish, often witty and always opinionated book, so it's easy to see why Fritz both loved it and mentally argued with it now and then. The reason why we have his underlinings and scribbled marginalia published when we don't with other books from his libraries is this: when Napoleon came to visit Sanssouci after having defeated Prussia, he swiped it as a personal souvenir. I don't blame him. I mean, I do blame Napoleon for other things, but not this. Totally would have done the same thing, though possibly I'd have gone for a Voltaire work instead in the hope of finding more shippy hilarity, but I can see why fanboy Bonaparte was more into Fritz' thoughts on Montesquieu's thoughts about the Romans. Anyway, that's why this copy ended up in a French national library instead of a German one and got published.
When did Fritz write his comments? It's still a guessing game. As the German translator says, some sound as if written by Crown Prince Fritz in Rheinsberg, others more like King Fritz. We do know he's read the first edition since he quotes from it in one of his few letters to Émilie, no less. (This was a problem for the French and German editor alike, because there are some passages in the first eidtion which Montesquieu cut in later editions, but they eventually decided to go with the edition that Fritz had.)
Montesquieu starts with the foundation of Rome and ends with the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, though obviously picking and choosing different eras for emphasis. Fritz is mostly interested in the late Republic and the Empire, but does comment occasionally before that. The German edition reproduces his underlinings and his marginalia (he didn't always write a comment when underlining). The mere underlinings can be very telling about Fritz, like this one:
"And since (the up and coming Roman Republic about to conquer Italy) could not imagine existing without ruling, neither fear nor hope could force it to conclude a peace treaty it hadn't dictated."
Or, when Montesquieu writes: "It usually isn't the real loss suffered in a battle (i.e. the one of several thousands of men) who come to cause the state harm, but the assumed loss, and the discouragement which take what strength fate has left from it."
Fritz underlines this and comments: "Very true and very well reasoned! The frightened imagination of the soldiers is a spectre winning more battles than the material strength and superiority of the enemy."
Or, Montesquieu about Hannibal "Conquests are easy to make, since one can use all one's force for them. But they are difficult to hold since one can defend them with only a part of one's force."
Fritz writes: "A proof for this is Louis XIV who conquered the Netherlands quickly and then was forced to withdraw from its towns just as quickly as he'd won them."
(Or, one might say, Fritz in Bohemia in Silesia 2.)
When Montesquieu when talking about the Romans and their system of client kings gives a flashback about Macedonian history pre Romans and inevitably mentions Philip and Alexander, we get these two gems:
Montesquieu: "Their (Macedonian) monarchy wasn't among those developing along predictable lines. Always learning from dangers and events and embroiled in all the arguments between the Greeks, they had to win the most important cities for themselves, to dazzle and blind the people and to separate or unite them by interests. While doing all of this, they were always forced to put their own lives on the line for their cause."
Fritz: These Macedon kings were what a King of Prussia and a King of Sardinia are today.
(Me: You really wanted that Sardinia guy as an ally , then?)
Montesquieu when talking about Antiochos makes a comparison to his national hero Louis XIV and says about Louis, alluding to Louis refusing the "get rid of your grandson on the Spanish throne" condition by the allies when the War of Spanish Succesion turned against him:
I know nothing more noble than the decision of a monarch who has ruled into our time to rather let himself be buried under the wreckage of his throne than to accept conditions which a King cannot listen to. He had too proud a soul to sink any further than the blows of destiny had put him, and he knew that courage can strengthen a crown anew, but never craven humility.
To this, a Fritz who sounds as if he's definitely King Fritz and familiar with several peace treaties with MT, not just one, comments:
This is very well thought of a great King who can face many of his enemies at the same time. But a prince whose military strength and power is lesser has to accomodate his era and circumstances somewhat more.
Now, Montesquieu's basic theory is that the laws by which the Roman Republic had governed itself were no longer workable once Rome had expanded so much that it had become an Empire, and this its own greatness carried the seed of its downfall, making the civil war and then the monarchy inevitable. (This is why Montesquieu still has fans today, since it's a modern pov that doesn't blame/credit just one or two individuals for this development.) Which doesn't mean he does not have opinions on individual Romans and their conduct, and here, Fritz entertainingly disagrees with him.
Montesquieu, on Caesar's famous clemency towards his defeated enemies: Caesar forgave each and everyone. (After the civil war.) But it seems to me that moderation shown after one has taken everything by force doesn't deserve any plaudits.
Fritz: This is an exaggarated critique! Sulla, the barbarian Sulla, didn't show as much moderation as Caesar; a low soul which could have avenged itself would still have done it. But Caesar only forgave. It's always beautiful to forgive, even if one doesn't have to fear anything anymore.
Montesquieu: Caesar, who had always been an enemy of the Senate, couldn't disguise the contempt he felt for this body which had become a mockery of itself since losing power. This is why even his clemency was an insult. One saw he didn't forgive, but that he simply declined to punish.
Fritz: This thought is exaggarated! If one measured all actions of all people by this strict standard, there wouildn't be a heroic deed left. He who proves too much proves nothing!
Fritz also takes the occasional swipe at the current daycompetition people.
Montesquieu: Besides, often great men are forged in civil wars, because in the confusion those who have talent rise to the top, each according to their abilities, while at other times one is put at a place which one is completely wrong for.
Fritz (underlining this and adding): Don Carlos would not have won any fame in the Civil Wars! How few people of rank would have had success back then. The incapable often luck out by blind fortune helping their cause.
Then there are Cicero and Cato. Montesquieu's comparison between the two was one which impressed and irritated Fritz and which he brought up in a letter to Émilie.cahn, to understand the point, it's worth recalling that while both Cato and Cicero had sided with the Senate & Pompey against Caesar in the Civil War, Cato ended up coommitting suicide rather than being pardoned by Caesar, while Cicero did accept clemency, outlived Caesar and then, as the last remaining representative of the old school Senate, made the mistake of thinking that by backing Octavian against Antony, he could get rid of Antony and restore the Republic to its old self, completely underestimating young Octavian (as so many did).
Montesquieu (underlinings by Fritz): I believe hat if Cato had preserved himself for the Republic, he would have been able to give all ensuing events another twist. Cicero who had admirable qualities in a supporting part, was utterly incapable of playing the lead. He had a beautiful mind, but often a somewhat ordinary soul. With Cicero, virtue was often a side thought, while with Cato, fame was secondary. Cicero always saw himself first, Cato forgot himself always. One wanted to save the Republic for its own sake, the other in order to boast of it.
Fritz: If a citizen contributes something good to public welfare: if he does it only for the pleasure of doing good, he's all the more admirable, but if he does it for the sake of fame, the principle isn't as nice, but surely the effect is the same!
Montesquieu uses Cato's suicide to ruminate on how different the Roman attitude towards suicide was than the current day one is (where suicide is treated as a crime and suicidees aren't allowed to be buried with law abiding folk). Fritz has STRONG OPINIONS in his marginalia, of which there are three on one page.
On suicide in general: This is a means which should be used only with great caution, for the obvious reason that you can only do it once.
Montesquieu: Finally it is a great convenience for heroes to be able to end the part they're playing on the world's stage immediately when they want to.
Fritz (underlining the above): Any action which happens with the consent of the people concerned is a legal. If I decide to take my life, I give my consent. So this is not a violent action breaking the law but a voluntary act which thus becomes legal.
Montesquieu: It is a certain that people are less free, less courageous and less ready to commit great deeds than they were in an era where due to the power one had over oneself one could always escape any other power.
Fritz (underlining this): Religion wherever it was spread has weakened the courage of nations. A man who fears killing himself has to fear death. And fearing death means being not courageous. Besides, the fear of the judgments by the canonized Proserpina makes many a man tremble who without this article of faith would have risen above such fear.
Something else striking the modern reader is that Montesquieu except for one remark that comes very late into Roman history (we're talking 4th century AD already), and one earlier remark where he sighs Hannibal should have had a Homer to write him, not a Livy, he's not source critical. The introduction is defensive about this and says of course he didn't doubt his Roman historians were telling the truth, he was an ancient writers loving 18th century guy! To which I say, well, so was Voltaire, and his preface to his Charles XII. history is satiric fun about why he doesn't buy what a lot of ancient historians serve up due to the obvious contradictions, and thus he feels at liberty to go for the most likely (in his opinion) explanation there as in more modern histories. Meanwhile, the preface insists Fritz must have known Montesquieu is the much, much deeper writer than Voltaire and wonders why he made Montesquieu an honorable member of the Berlin Academy but didn't invite him, because surely Montesquieu wouldn't have disappointed him the way a certain shallow other French writer did!
Back to "Greatness and Fall of Rome". It is a very stylish, often witty and always opinionated book, so it's easy to see why Fritz both loved it and mentally argued with it now and then. The reason why we have his underlinings and scribbled marginalia published when we don't with other books from his libraries is this: when Napoleon came to visit Sanssouci after having defeated Prussia, he swiped it as a personal souvenir. I don't blame him. I mean, I do blame Napoleon for other things, but not this. Totally would have done the same thing, though possibly I'd have gone for a Voltaire work instead in the hope of finding more shippy hilarity, but I can see why fanboy Bonaparte was more into Fritz' thoughts on Montesquieu's thoughts about the Romans. Anyway, that's why this copy ended up in a French national library instead of a German one and got published.
When did Fritz write his comments? It's still a guessing game. As the German translator says, some sound as if written by Crown Prince Fritz in Rheinsberg, others more like King Fritz. We do know he's read the first edition since he quotes from it in one of his few letters to Émilie, no less. (This was a problem for the French and German editor alike, because there are some passages in the first eidtion which Montesquieu cut in later editions, but they eventually decided to go with the edition that Fritz had.)
Montesquieu starts with the foundation of Rome and ends with the fall of Constantinople to the Turks, though obviously picking and choosing different eras for emphasis. Fritz is mostly interested in the late Republic and the Empire, but does comment occasionally before that. The German edition reproduces his underlinings and his marginalia (he didn't always write a comment when underlining). The mere underlinings can be very telling about Fritz, like this one:
"And since (the up and coming Roman Republic about to conquer Italy) could not imagine existing without ruling, neither fear nor hope could force it to conclude a peace treaty it hadn't dictated."
Or, when Montesquieu writes: "It usually isn't the real loss suffered in a battle (i.e. the one of several thousands of men) who come to cause the state harm, but the assumed loss, and the discouragement which take what strength fate has left from it."
Fritz underlines this and comments: "Very true and very well reasoned! The frightened imagination of the soldiers is a spectre winning more battles than the material strength and superiority of the enemy."
Or, Montesquieu about Hannibal "Conquests are easy to make, since one can use all one's force for them. But they are difficult to hold since one can defend them with only a part of one's force."
Fritz writes: "A proof for this is Louis XIV who conquered the Netherlands quickly and then was forced to withdraw from its towns just as quickly as he'd won them."
(Or, one might say, Fritz in Bohemia in Silesia 2.)
When Montesquieu when talking about the Romans and their system of client kings gives a flashback about Macedonian history pre Romans and inevitably mentions Philip and Alexander, we get these two gems:
Montesquieu: "Their (Macedonian) monarchy wasn't among those developing along predictable lines. Always learning from dangers and events and embroiled in all the arguments between the Greeks, they had to win the most important cities for themselves, to dazzle and blind the people and to separate or unite them by interests. While doing all of this, they were always forced to put their own lives on the line for their cause."
Fritz: These Macedon kings were what a King of Prussia and a King of Sardinia are today.
(Me: You really wanted that Sardinia guy as an ally , then?)
Montesquieu when talking about Antiochos makes a comparison to his national hero Louis XIV and says about Louis, alluding to Louis refusing the "get rid of your grandson on the Spanish throne" condition by the allies when the War of Spanish Succesion turned against him:
I know nothing more noble than the decision of a monarch who has ruled into our time to rather let himself be buried under the wreckage of his throne than to accept conditions which a King cannot listen to. He had too proud a soul to sink any further than the blows of destiny had put him, and he knew that courage can strengthen a crown anew, but never craven humility.
To this, a Fritz who sounds as if he's definitely King Fritz and familiar with several peace treaties with MT, not just one, comments:
This is very well thought of a great King who can face many of his enemies at the same time. But a prince whose military strength and power is lesser has to accomodate his era and circumstances somewhat more.
Now, Montesquieu's basic theory is that the laws by which the Roman Republic had governed itself were no longer workable once Rome had expanded so much that it had become an Empire, and this its own greatness carried the seed of its downfall, making the civil war and then the monarchy inevitable. (This is why Montesquieu still has fans today, since it's a modern pov that doesn't blame/credit just one or two individuals for this development.) Which doesn't mean he does not have opinions on individual Romans and their conduct, and here, Fritz entertainingly disagrees with him.
Montesquieu, on Caesar's famous clemency towards his defeated enemies: Caesar forgave each and everyone. (After the civil war.) But it seems to me that moderation shown after one has taken everything by force doesn't deserve any plaudits.
Fritz: This is an exaggarated critique! Sulla, the barbarian Sulla, didn't show as much moderation as Caesar; a low soul which could have avenged itself would still have done it. But Caesar only forgave. It's always beautiful to forgive, even if one doesn't have to fear anything anymore.
Montesquieu: Caesar, who had always been an enemy of the Senate, couldn't disguise the contempt he felt for this body which had become a mockery of itself since losing power. This is why even his clemency was an insult. One saw he didn't forgive, but that he simply declined to punish.
Fritz: This thought is exaggarated! If one measured all actions of all people by this strict standard, there wouildn't be a heroic deed left. He who proves too much proves nothing!
Fritz also takes the occasional swipe at the current day
Montesquieu: Besides, often great men are forged in civil wars, because in the confusion those who have talent rise to the top, each according to their abilities, while at other times one is put at a place which one is completely wrong for.
Fritz (underlining this and adding): Don Carlos would not have won any fame in the Civil Wars! How few people of rank would have had success back then. The incapable often luck out by blind fortune helping their cause.
Then there are Cicero and Cato. Montesquieu's comparison between the two was one which impressed and irritated Fritz and which he brought up in a letter to Émilie.
cahn, to understand the point, it's worth recalling that while both Cato and Cicero had sided with the Senate & Pompey against Caesar in the Civil War, Cato ended up coommitting suicide rather than being pardoned by Caesar, while Cicero did accept clemency, outlived Caesar and then, as the last remaining representative of the old school Senate, made the mistake of thinking that by backing Octavian against Antony, he could get rid of Antony and restore the Republic to its old self, completely underestimating young Octavian (as so many did). Montesquieu (underlinings by Fritz): I believe hat if Cato had preserved himself for the Republic, he would have been able to give all ensuing events another twist. Cicero who had admirable qualities in a supporting part, was utterly incapable of playing the lead. He had a beautiful mind, but often a somewhat ordinary soul. With Cicero, virtue was often a side thought, while with Cato, fame was secondary. Cicero always saw himself first, Cato forgot himself always. One wanted to save the Republic for its own sake, the other in order to boast of it.
Fritz: If a citizen contributes something good to public welfare: if he does it only for the pleasure of doing good, he's all the more admirable, but if he does it for the sake of fame, the principle isn't as nice, but surely the effect is the same!
Montesquieu uses Cato's suicide to ruminate on how different the Roman attitude towards suicide was than the current day one is (where suicide is treated as a crime and suicidees aren't allowed to be buried with law abiding folk). Fritz has STRONG OPINIONS in his marginalia, of which there are three on one page.
On suicide in general: This is a means which should be used only with great caution, for the obvious reason that you can only do it once.
Montesquieu: Finally it is a great convenience for heroes to be able to end the part they're playing on the world's stage immediately when they want to.
Fritz (underlining the above): Any action which happens with the consent of the people concerned is a legal. If I decide to take my life, I give my consent. So this is not a violent action breaking the law but a voluntary act which thus becomes legal.
Montesquieu: It is a certain that people are less free, less courageous and less ready to commit great deeds than they were in an era where due to the power one had over oneself one could always escape any other power.
Fritz (underlining this): Religion wherever it was spread has weakened the courage of nations. A man who fears killing himself has to fear death. And fearing death means being not courageous. Besides, the fear of the judgments by the canonized Proserpina makes many a man tremble who without this article of faith would have risen above such fear.
Edited 2021-08-06 08:03 (UTC)
Re: Montesquieu II: With added Fritz commentary on clemency, courage, fame and suicide
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-07 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)
All the observations on Roman decadence thus also have the subtext of criticism of current day France without getting censored for it.
Ooh, this does sound interesting.
Thus, Rome was doing well when the wise Patrician Senate was in charge, creating the Tribunes was already a step in the wrong direction
*blink*
Well, 18th century French noble, I guess.
while the Emperors were except for five of them no good luxury loving parasites
Why does my guy Diocletian never get any credit, I ask you?
. I don't blame him. I mean, I do blame Napoleon for other things, but not this.
Lol! Also, this is cool. I knew he took various souvenirs, but not this one.
Totally would have done the same thing
*This* is why they won't let us into the library at Sanssouci. They know we'll nick a book the moment their backs are turned!
though possibly I'd have gone for a Voltaire work instead in the hope of finding more shippy hilarity
Perfect! Next time we're there, you snatch a Voltaire, and I'll grab a Homer. :D
Anyway, that's why this copy ended up in a French national library instead of a German one and got published.
Wait, but, maybe this is obvious to you, but why aren't Germans publishing Fritz's commentary? Considering all the other things that got systematically (if with some bowdlerization) published, why does it take a French library to publish a copy of one of *the* Prussian monarch's annotated books?
When did Fritz write his comments? It's still a guessing game. As the German translator says, some sound as if written by Crown Prince Fritz in Rheinsberg, others more like King Fritz.
Well, one thing we know about Fritz is that he read and reread the same books, often (iirc and my source is reliable) the same set in the same order, so it would not surprise me at all if his books accumulated annotations from 1735 to 1785.
but I can see why fanboy Bonaparte was more into Fritz' thoughts on Montesquieu's thoughts about the Romans.
Indeed. Incidentally, I'm reading Massie's bio of Catherine the Great at your recommendation, and I just hit the part where she's 15 and some guy is like, "You should read this!" and she tries, and she starts yawning after a few pages and can't do it any more. To be fair, at 15, I couldn't have either!
Interestingly, she also mentions that this book (which had just been published ~10 years before) was easier to get her hands on a copy of than the other recommendation, which was Plutarch's Lives. That surprised me.
Fritz underlines this and comments: "Very true and very well reasoned! The frightened imagination of the soldiers is a spectre winning more battles than the material strength and superiority of the enemy."
Oooh, yes. This is THE driving principle of how Fritz ran his army. Down to scapegoating (which I agree had emotional reasons as well, but the rationalization is this), where his rationale was that the soldiers have to believe that if they lost, it wasn't due to the army, i.e. themselves, but some officer who's now gone. Officers are expendable, individual soldiers are expendable, the fighting spirit of the army is not.
It's always beautiful to forgive, even if one doesn't have to fear anything anymore.
Fritz: I make people's lives miserable, but I almost always reprieve the death sentence. Why aren't people more grateful?
but if he does it for the sake of fame, the principle isn't as nice, but surely the effect is the same!
Fritz of the Rendezvous With Fame Exchange: I resemble that remark!
Fritz has STRONG OPINIONS in his marginalia, of which there are three on one page.
Oh, man, that doesn't surprise me, and yet. I would give a lot to know when *that* particular set of annotations was made.
These are really cool! As always, we're super lucky to have you to share your findings with us.
Ooh, this does sound interesting.
Thus, Rome was doing well when the wise Patrician Senate was in charge, creating the Tribunes was already a step in the wrong direction
*blink*
Well, 18th century French noble, I guess.
while the Emperors were except for five of them no good luxury loving parasites
Why does my guy Diocletian never get any credit, I ask you?
. I don't blame him. I mean, I do blame Napoleon for other things, but not this.
Lol! Also, this is cool. I knew he took various souvenirs, but not this one.
Totally would have done the same thing
*This* is why they won't let us into the library at Sanssouci. They know we'll nick a book the moment their backs are turned!
though possibly I'd have gone for a Voltaire work instead in the hope of finding more shippy hilarity
Perfect! Next time we're there, you snatch a Voltaire, and I'll grab a Homer. :D
Anyway, that's why this copy ended up in a French national library instead of a German one and got published.
Wait, but, maybe this is obvious to you, but why aren't Germans publishing Fritz's commentary? Considering all the other things that got systematically (if with some bowdlerization) published, why does it take a French library to publish a copy of one of *the* Prussian monarch's annotated books?
When did Fritz write his comments? It's still a guessing game. As the German translator says, some sound as if written by Crown Prince Fritz in Rheinsberg, others more like King Fritz.
Well, one thing we know about Fritz is that he read and reread the same books, often (iirc and my source is reliable) the same set in the same order, so it would not surprise me at all if his books accumulated annotations from 1735 to 1785.
but I can see why fanboy Bonaparte was more into Fritz' thoughts on Montesquieu's thoughts about the Romans.
Indeed. Incidentally, I'm reading Massie's bio of Catherine the Great at your recommendation, and I just hit the part where she's 15 and some guy is like, "You should read this!" and she tries, and she starts yawning after a few pages and can't do it any more. To be fair, at 15, I couldn't have either!
Interestingly, she also mentions that this book (which had just been published ~10 years before) was easier to get her hands on a copy of than the other recommendation, which was Plutarch's Lives. That surprised me.
Fritz underlines this and comments: "Very true and very well reasoned! The frightened imagination of the soldiers is a spectre winning more battles than the material strength and superiority of the enemy."
Oooh, yes. This is THE driving principle of how Fritz ran his army. Down to scapegoating (which I agree had emotional reasons as well, but the rationalization is this), where his rationale was that the soldiers have to believe that if they lost, it wasn't due to the army, i.e. themselves, but some officer who's now gone. Officers are expendable, individual soldiers are expendable, the fighting spirit of the army is not.
It's always beautiful to forgive, even if one doesn't have to fear anything anymore.
Fritz: I make people's lives miserable, but I almost always reprieve the death sentence. Why aren't people more grateful?
but if he does it for the sake of fame, the principle isn't as nice, but surely the effect is the same!
Fritz of the Rendezvous With Fame Exchange: I resemble that remark!
Fritz has STRONG OPINIONS in his marginalia, of which there are three on one page.
Oh, man, that doesn't surprise me, and yet. I would give a lot to know when *that* particular set of annotations was made.
These are really cool! As always, we're super lucky to have you to share your findings with us.
Well, 18th century French noble, I guess.
Yep. Never ever have I seen the Senatus in Senatus Populusque Romanum judged so positively pre-end of the Republic. Something I forgot to mention: Montesquieu thinks not just all the slaves, but all the freedmen and their descendants (who could and did become Roman citizens) contributed to the general Roman mentality and moral strength going downhill. While the slavery of the ancient world wasn't race-bound ata all, I'm still sideeying this because of the subtextual-comment-on-present-day-France issue, especially since when Montesquieu wants to explain to his modern readers how the Romans could enjoy the games in the arena in their barbarism, he invites them to think of the barbaric people in "our colonies" and what they like before getting the benefit of French civilisation.
*This* is why they won't let us into the library at Sanssouci. They know we'll nick a book the moment their backs are turned!
Yep. Napoleon spoiled it for the rest of us!
Wait, but, maybe this is obvious to you, but why aren't Germans publishing Fritz's commentary? Considering all the other things that got systematically (if with some bowdlerization) published, why does it take a French library to publish a copy of one of *the* Prussian monarch's annotated books?
Pre 20th century: a combination of possibly Fritz' comments not fitting with the 19th century image of Der Einzige König and marketing issues.
20th century onwards: Marketing and financial issues. Look, you and I would of course buy a German translation of a French translation of Homer with Fritzian commentary. Or a German translation of Voltaire play with Fritzian commentary. But we're hardly typical. Sure, there's the academic field, but the combination of people interested in Homer and Fritz are still not in enough in number to justify the money necessary for a) hiring someone able to decypher the scribblings, b) someone who does a good new translation of Homer or Voltaire (let alone the more obcure 18th century fashionable books like Fenelon's magnum opus or Algarotti's works), c) someone who writes the historical commentary on the commentary putting this into context, and d) putting it into print, advertising and selling it.
Why does my guy Diocletian never get any credit, I ask you?
LOL. Well, I never said he wasn't among those five, did I? More seriously thought, I'm not entirely sure which five Fritz means, because Montesquieu lists a different selection of decent Emperors at different points in the book. The one he lists where Fritz writes the "really, only five, maybe some criticis exaggarate?!?" doodle are Nerva, Trajan (Trajan is his absolute fave and the best Emperor ever), Hadrian and "the two Antonines". Somewhere else in the book, it's Vespasian, Titus, Nerva, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius.
Note: Augustus is never on the list. Montesquieu does not approve of Augustus. He considers him ultra competent, mind, but also as the guy who eased the Romans into tyranny and responsible for finishing the Senate off for good as a political force.
BTW, my own suspicion why Diocletian only in more recent decades gets credit is that his reign contained the last big persecution of Christians. This all but guaranteed him a bad press for the next 1500 years.
Interestingly, she also mentions that this book (which had just been published ~10 years before) was easier to get her hands on a copy of than the other recommendation, which was Plutarch's Lives. That surprised me.
Montesquieu's book is a hot new bestseller. Plutarch's Lives are not. Even if they were recced to her in a French translation. But at 15, she was already in St. Petersburg, and I assume booksellers there had only a limited supply of classics anyway.
A possible alternate reason: censorship. Montesquieu's history of the Romans is conspiciously free of same sex relationships and het scandals beyond the most general terms, like his listing Theodora as an actress and a prostitute and saying he believes Procopius' trashy tell all more than Procopius official praise, but painstakingly avoiding all the pornographic detail Procopius provides. Montesquieu manages to write about Caligula and his sister Drusilla without using the term "incest" once, there's no mention of Antinous when he brings up Hadrian, no Sporus for Nero, etc. Maybe in Elizabeth's Russia, you could not buy Plutarch in bookshops for this reason, and the number of people able to order their copy from France (or hey, Berlin) were limited?
I would give a lot to know when *that* particular set of annotations was made.
Same. I don't have the time to cross check with Henri de Catt, but does he list Montesquieu among the books he discussed with Fritz? (read: that Fritz monologued about?)
Yep. Never ever have I seen the Senatus in Senatus Populusque Romanum judged so positively pre-end of the Republic. Something I forgot to mention: Montesquieu thinks not just all the slaves, but all the freedmen and their descendants (who could and did become Roman citizens) contributed to the general Roman mentality and moral strength going downhill. While the slavery of the ancient world wasn't race-bound ata all, I'm still sideeying this because of the subtextual-comment-on-present-day-France issue, especially since when Montesquieu wants to explain to his modern readers how the Romans could enjoy the games in the arena in their barbarism, he invites them to think of the barbaric people in "our colonies" and what they like before getting the benefit of French civilisation.
*This* is why they won't let us into the library at Sanssouci. They know we'll nick a book the moment their backs are turned!
Yep. Napoleon spoiled it for the rest of us!
Wait, but, maybe this is obvious to you, but why aren't Germans publishing Fritz's commentary? Considering all the other things that got systematically (if with some bowdlerization) published, why does it take a French library to publish a copy of one of *the* Prussian monarch's annotated books?
Pre 20th century: a combination of possibly Fritz' comments not fitting with the 19th century image of Der Einzige König and marketing issues.
20th century onwards: Marketing and financial issues. Look, you and I would of course buy a German translation of a French translation of Homer with Fritzian commentary. Or a German translation of Voltaire play with Fritzian commentary. But we're hardly typical. Sure, there's the academic field, but the combination of people interested in Homer and Fritz are still not in enough in number to justify the money necessary for a) hiring someone able to decypher the scribblings, b) someone who does a good new translation of Homer or Voltaire (let alone the more obcure 18th century fashionable books like Fenelon's magnum opus or Algarotti's works), c) someone who writes the historical commentary on the commentary putting this into context, and d) putting it into print, advertising and selling it.
Why does my guy Diocletian never get any credit, I ask you?
LOL. Well, I never said he wasn't among those five, did I? More seriously thought, I'm not entirely sure which five Fritz means, because Montesquieu lists a different selection of decent Emperors at different points in the book. The one he lists where Fritz writes the "really, only five, maybe some criticis exaggarate?!?" doodle are Nerva, Trajan (Trajan is his absolute fave and the best Emperor ever), Hadrian and "the two Antonines". Somewhere else in the book, it's Vespasian, Titus, Nerva, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius.
Note: Augustus is never on the list. Montesquieu does not approve of Augustus. He considers him ultra competent, mind, but also as the guy who eased the Romans into tyranny and responsible for finishing the Senate off for good as a political force.
BTW, my own suspicion why Diocletian only in more recent decades gets credit is that his reign contained the last big persecution of Christians. This all but guaranteed him a bad press for the next 1500 years.
Interestingly, she also mentions that this book (which had just been published ~10 years before) was easier to get her hands on a copy of than the other recommendation, which was Plutarch's Lives. That surprised me.
Montesquieu's book is a hot new bestseller. Plutarch's Lives are not. Even if they were recced to her in a French translation. But at 15, she was already in St. Petersburg, and I assume booksellers there had only a limited supply of classics anyway.
A possible alternate reason: censorship. Montesquieu's history of the Romans is conspiciously free of same sex relationships and het scandals beyond the most general terms, like his listing Theodora as an actress and a prostitute and saying he believes Procopius' trashy tell all more than Procopius official praise, but painstakingly avoiding all the pornographic detail Procopius provides. Montesquieu manages to write about Caligula and his sister Drusilla without using the term "incest" once, there's no mention of Antinous when he brings up Hadrian, no Sporus for Nero, etc. Maybe in Elizabeth's Russia, you could not buy Plutarch in bookshops for this reason, and the number of people able to order their copy from France (or hey, Berlin) were limited?
I would give a lot to know when *that* particular set of annotations was made.
Same. I don't have the time to cross check with Henri de Catt, but does he list Montesquieu among the books he discussed with Fritz? (read: that Fritz monologued about?)
Re: Montesquieu II: With added Fritz commentary on clemency, courage, fame and suicide
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-08 05:57 pm (UTC)(link)
20th century onwards: Marketing and financial issues. Look, you and I would of course buy a German translation of a French translation of Homer with Fritzian commentary. Or a German translation of Voltaire play with Fritzian commentary. But we're hardly typical.
Okay, but then next question, when and for what book-buying audience did the Montesquieu volume get deciphered and commentated and published? Was that 19th century? I now regret Napoleon didn't take more souvenirs! You were too focused on the wrong things, Napoleon! :P
LOL. Well, I never said he wasn't among those five, did I?
You didn't, but there's a traditional list of The Five Good Emperors (TM), and Diocletian never makes the cut. :P To be clear, not that he should be listed among the five good emperors. But the only other category presented was "no good luxury loving parasites," and that's what I take umbrage at. He may have been a Christian-persecuting bureaucracy-loving absolutist, but he was not a luxury-loving parasite!* :P Much like Fritz, I could not disagree with his politics more, but I dig the competence and efficiency.
* This reminds me of the time I saw a description of Alexander as "a decadent, alcoholic megalomaniac," and I went, "He was not decadent!" (I Take Offense To That Last One!)
He considers him ultra competent, mind, but also as the guy who eased the Romans into tyranny and responsible for finishing the Senate off for good as a political force.
Welp, I guess that answers my question about Diocletian. :P
Maybe in Elizabeth's Russia, you could not buy Plutarch in bookshops for this reason, and the number of people able to order their copy from France (or hey, Berlin) were limited?
Not sure. Elisaveta doesn't have a lot of room to throw stones about sex scandals (at least non-incestuous het ones), but censorship and the monarch's personal life are two different things. I have no idea what the Orthodox position on Plutarch and censorship during this period was.
Maybe the difficulty of shipping to St. Petersburg meant recent French bestsellers were easier to get than old Classics, I was just surprised nobody would have a copy of Plutarch already lying around in their library for the Grand Duchess to borrow.
Same. I don't have the time to cross check with Henri de Catt, but does he list Montesquieu among the books he discussed with Fritz? (read: that Fritz monologued about?)
Not that I remember, and not in my searching, either.
Okay, but then next question, when and for what book-buying audience did the Montesquieu volume get deciphered and commentated and published? Was that 19th century? I now regret Napoleon didn't take more souvenirs! You were too focused on the wrong things, Napoleon! :P
LOL. Well, I never said he wasn't among those five, did I?
You didn't, but there's a traditional list of The Five Good Emperors (TM), and Diocletian never makes the cut. :P To be clear, not that he should be listed among the five good emperors. But the only other category presented was "no good luxury loving parasites," and that's what I take umbrage at. He may have been a Christian-persecuting bureaucracy-loving absolutist, but he was not a luxury-loving parasite!* :P Much like Fritz, I could not disagree with his politics more, but I dig the competence and efficiency.
* This reminds me of the time I saw a description of Alexander as "a decadent, alcoholic megalomaniac," and I went, "He was not decadent!" (I Take Offense To That Last One!)
He considers him ultra competent, mind, but also as the guy who eased the Romans into tyranny and responsible for finishing the Senate off for good as a political force.
Welp, I guess that answers my question about Diocletian. :P
Maybe in Elizabeth's Russia, you could not buy Plutarch in bookshops for this reason, and the number of people able to order their copy from France (or hey, Berlin) were limited?
Not sure. Elisaveta doesn't have a lot of room to throw stones about sex scandals (at least non-incestuous het ones), but censorship and the monarch's personal life are two different things. I have no idea what the Orthodox position on Plutarch and censorship during this period was.
Maybe the difficulty of shipping to St. Petersburg meant recent French bestsellers were easier to get than old Classics, I was just surprised nobody would have a copy of Plutarch already lying around in their library for the Grand Duchess to borrow.
Same. I don't have the time to cross check with Henri de Catt, but does he list Montesquieu among the books he discussed with Fritz? (read: that Fritz monologued about?)
Not that I remember, and not in my searching, either.
He considers him ultra competent, mind, but also as the guy who eased the Romans into tyranny and responsible for finishing the Senate off for good as a political force.
Welp, I guess that answers my question about Diocletian. :P
Fritz, btw, is much impressed by Augustus' smartness of easing the Romans into tyranny while selling himself as first among equals. Though he doesn't fanboy him, either.
re: how did the Montesquieu volume pubished, I don't want to tell you anything wrong, and I'm currently on the road, so it'll have to wait until Thursday so I can check to be sure when I'm reunited with my copy.
Incidentally, re: Diocletian, I thought of you when listening to the Caesar! audio series about the Roman emperors. Diocletian isn't in it, but Maximinian's daughter Fausta is as a main character in the Constantine episode.
Welp, I guess that answers my question about Diocletian. :P
Fritz, btw, is much impressed by Augustus' smartness of easing the Romans into tyranny while selling himself as first among equals. Though he doesn't fanboy him, either.
re: how did the Montesquieu volume pubished, I don't want to tell you anything wrong, and I'm currently on the road, so it'll have to wait until Thursday so I can check to be sure when I'm reunited with my copy.
Incidentally, re: Diocletian, I thought of you when listening to the Caesar! audio series about the Roman emperors. Diocletian isn't in it, but Maximinian's daughter Fausta is as a main character in the Constantine episode.
Re: Montesquieu II: With added Fritz commentary on clemency, courage, fame and suicide
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-12 10:40 pm (UTC)(link)
I left this out of my original reply:
especially since when Montesquieu wants to explain to his modern readers how the Romans could enjoy the games in the arena in their barbarism, he invites them to think of the barbaric people in "our colonies" and what they like before getting the benefit of French civilisation.
Meanwhile, in Europe: "Hey, someone's getting executed! Everybody bring a picnic!"
especially since when Montesquieu wants to explain to his modern readers how the Romans could enjoy the games in the arena in their barbarism, he invites them to think of the barbaric people in "our colonies" and what they like before getting the benefit of French civilisation.
Meanwhile, in Europe: "Hey, someone's getting executed! Everybody bring a picnic!"
Quite. I thought of the infamous execution of the wannabe assassin of Louis XV. in particular, but even discounting this as shocking even some contemporaries, there are the highly popular executions in England, France, the Dutch being disappointed not more gay men got executed as the result of the Utrecht trials, FW's style of punishmnent for desertion....
Mind you, I seem to recall Mary Beard making a similar point re: the Roman Games less patronizingly and without racism or colonialism somewhere in SPQR, when saying they show that given social permission to enjoy public executions, fights to the death etc., a majority of people will go for it, in any society.
Mind you, I seem to recall Mary Beard making a similar point re: the Roman Games less patronizingly and without racism or colonialism somewhere in SPQR, when saying they show that given social permission to enjoy public executions, fights to the death etc., a majority of people will go for it, in any society.
Re: Montesquieu II: With added Fritz commentary on clemency, courage, fame and suicide
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-13 12:54 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I was reading Zweig and last night he was talking about Damiens, and that's what jogged my memory.
I am 100% with Beard. Also, my last fandom was Hunger Games. ;)
I am 100% with Beard. Also, my last fandom was Hunger Games. ;)
Speaking of Utrecht and public executions, this reminds me.
I found a good essay on sodomy as a crime in Prussia (see here via google, almost completely available), whose author is fully aware of the terminology pitfalls and wrote his whole dissertation on the subject, i.e. sodomy as a crime in the 18th century. He even refers to and quotes original documents from the state archive, which includes multiple court files as well as discussions for the new law code (the 1794 one) which took place in 1786/87. (For example: While the commission agreed that there shouldn't be a death penalty and that it hadn't been in use for half a century anyway, some people wanted to keep a mention of it in for deterrence. Carmer, one of the guys in charge, thought it was ridiculous to threaten punishment that would never happen anyway and so they abolished it.)
The author of the essay says that the vast majority of "sodomy" cases in Prussia were indeed bestiality, very different from places like Hamburg apparently (which he investigated as a second case study). He mentions a few of the exceptions: Two nobles who got convicted of sex with male servants in 1715/16 for example (one of them this guy, a cousin of Countess Cosel, who never married and might have been killed by his brother after his return from five years in prison), but only got Spandau prison sentences with the possibility of paying money to free themselves.
And on the more chilling and very unusual side of things - not least because lesbian sex was a lot more complicated to judge - a case from 1721, where FW insisted on the death penalty for a woman who had lived as a man, even been a soldier in the War of the Spanish Succession, and had married her partner (see her wiki entry).
(Speaking of FW insisting on death penalties - regarding bestiality, FW in 1725 issued an edict which closed what he saw as a loophole, i.e. no ejaculation = crime not completed = no death penalty. FW gave the order that this shouldn't matter, death penalty was possible regardless of ejaculation, and mercy should only depend on his decision. Unsurprisingly, he didn't often have mercy, even if "mercy" only meant that people got beheaded before burning, and even though those executions were kind of expensive. He even reimbursed the town Potsdam for the money spent on the execution of Lepsch in 1731.)
The author also mentions (and criticises as full of mistakes) a 1930 source I'd come across myself (Hans Haustein: Strafrecht und Sodomie vor 2 Jahrhunderten) - which is based on state archive documents as well and which is a source for a lot of other publications apparently (including English ones), especially concerning a 1728/29 court case that did indeed involve m/m sex and did end with a death penalty.
Thing is, though, the guy, Ephraim Ostermann, who got convicted? Had oral sex with multiple guys, yes, but also with horses. Plus, one guy he had sex with, Martin Köhler, got sick - which is how the whole thing got on the radar in the first place - and then died and people thought the repeated oral sex he'd received might have been the reason for that. See also this fascinating write-up in a medical journal from 1735, by the doctor who both conducted the Köhler autopsy and met Ostermann to determine his mental state, reporting a conversation with him that is about the bestiality only. (Warning: unholy font, autopsy with 18th century medical jargon.) Also, even this medically focused write-up contains this line: The accused was arrested, especially because he was found guilty of criminal sodomy with horses, which is why he was killed with a sword and burned afterwards.
So it's not quite the clear-cut "death penalty for gay sex" case it's mentioned as in several publications I found.
That said, here is a 1889 article that has some biographical background on Ostermann and quotes the verdict (death by sword) and FW's confirmation (adding the subsequent burning). It omits anything graphic or detailed ("entzieht sich dem öffentlichen Berichte"), so there is no way to tell what he was convicted of exactly, but it does say that the court apparently thought he was responsible for Köhler's death. Also, lots of details on the execution here, from the fact that FW insisted on the date despite Lent, over the detailed costs, to the exact sequence of events, which included all the school kids taking part and singing eight hymns.
I found a good essay on sodomy as a crime in Prussia (see here via google, almost completely available), whose author is fully aware of the terminology pitfalls and wrote his whole dissertation on the subject, i.e. sodomy as a crime in the 18th century. He even refers to and quotes original documents from the state archive, which includes multiple court files as well as discussions for the new law code (the 1794 one) which took place in 1786/87. (For example: While the commission agreed that there shouldn't be a death penalty and that it hadn't been in use for half a century anyway, some people wanted to keep a mention of it in for deterrence. Carmer, one of the guys in charge, thought it was ridiculous to threaten punishment that would never happen anyway and so they abolished it.)
The author of the essay says that the vast majority of "sodomy" cases in Prussia were indeed bestiality, very different from places like Hamburg apparently (which he investigated as a second case study). He mentions a few of the exceptions: Two nobles who got convicted of sex with male servants in 1715/16 for example (one of them this guy, a cousin of Countess Cosel, who never married and might have been killed by his brother after his return from five years in prison), but only got Spandau prison sentences with the possibility of paying money to free themselves.
And on the more chilling and very unusual side of things - not least because lesbian sex was a lot more complicated to judge - a case from 1721, where FW insisted on the death penalty for a woman who had lived as a man, even been a soldier in the War of the Spanish Succession, and had married her partner (see her wiki entry).
(Speaking of FW insisting on death penalties - regarding bestiality, FW in 1725 issued an edict which closed what he saw as a loophole, i.e. no ejaculation = crime not completed = no death penalty. FW gave the order that this shouldn't matter, death penalty was possible regardless of ejaculation, and mercy should only depend on his decision. Unsurprisingly, he didn't often have mercy, even if "mercy" only meant that people got beheaded before burning, and even though those executions were kind of expensive. He even reimbursed the town Potsdam for the money spent on the execution of Lepsch in 1731.)
The author also mentions (and criticises as full of mistakes) a 1930 source I'd come across myself (Hans Haustein: Strafrecht und Sodomie vor 2 Jahrhunderten) - which is based on state archive documents as well and which is a source for a lot of other publications apparently (including English ones), especially concerning a 1728/29 court case that did indeed involve m/m sex and did end with a death penalty.
Thing is, though, the guy, Ephraim Ostermann, who got convicted? Had oral sex with multiple guys, yes, but also with horses. Plus, one guy he had sex with, Martin Köhler, got sick - which is how the whole thing got on the radar in the first place - and then died and people thought the repeated oral sex he'd received might have been the reason for that. See also this fascinating write-up in a medical journal from 1735, by the doctor who both conducted the Köhler autopsy and met Ostermann to determine his mental state, reporting a conversation with him that is about the bestiality only. (Warning: unholy font, autopsy with 18th century medical jargon.) Also, even this medically focused write-up contains this line: The accused was arrested, especially because he was found guilty of criminal sodomy with horses, which is why he was killed with a sword and burned afterwards.
So it's not quite the clear-cut "death penalty for gay sex" case it's mentioned as in several publications I found.
That said, here is a 1889 article that has some biographical background on Ostermann and quotes the verdict (death by sword) and FW's confirmation (adding the subsequent burning). It omits anything graphic or detailed ("entzieht sich dem öffentlichen Berichte"), so there is no way to tell what he was convicted of exactly, but it does say that the court apparently thought he was responsible for Köhler's death. Also, lots of details on the execution here, from the fact that FW insisted on the date despite Lent, over the detailed costs, to the exact sequence of events, which included all the school kids taking part and singing eight hymns.
Wow, that is an excellent and very informative essay.
The Cosel cousin's case was vaguely known to me before, as there's one theory that this is how Flemming & August got their hands on August's marriage pledge - the cousin had kept it for her, was put in trial and one of the conditions for not getting burned and getting prison with an option of buying himself out was that he handed over the promise of marriage.
BTW, I note that FW executing the poor sodomites (both the ones practicising bestiality and the m/m variation) and offering the rich nobility the chance to buy their lives (though with a prison sentence) is one of those things to keep in mind together with his attitude towards Gundling's funeral and the pastors' stand re: same the next time someone praises his tough-but-fair hardcore Protestant Christianity.
Speaking of that:
And on the more chilling and very unusual side of things - not least because lesbian sex was a lot more complicated to judge - a case from 1721, where FW insisted on the death penalty for a woman who had lived as a man, even been a soldier in the War of the Spanish Succession, and had married her partner
Checking the wiki entry you linked, I'd guess she was doubly offensive to him since she kept playing the "repentant sinner", changed faiths, and took Protestants and Catholics alike for what their money was worth when not soldiering (going by the wiki entry, she saw more battlefield action than he ever did). And she used a dildo. He must have felt castrated on every level. Poor woman.
even though those executions were kind of expensive.
This is sadly familiar to me, due to the fact we had a terrible ca. 1000 people death toll in the worst witch craze in my hometown from 1626 - 1630, and after a while, the firewood being expensive became a serious problem - solved by letting the families of the executed pay for it. However, I did not know death through being burned alive (or after a beheading, if FW was feeling merciful) was the standard method of execution for sodomites in a Protestant principality of the 18th century. Keeping in mind that this was when there were a lot of pamphlets talking about the Spanish-Catholic barbarism of their autodafés already.
On a less gruesome note, the article contains so many bestiality details that I repeatedly went "I did not need to know that" inwardly. Poor cows. Poor horses. Whyever weren't there any sheep involved? All the jokes I've come across used sheep.
The Cosel cousin's case was vaguely known to me before, as there's one theory that this is how Flemming & August got their hands on August's marriage pledge - the cousin had kept it for her, was put in trial and one of the conditions for not getting burned and getting prison with an option of buying himself out was that he handed over the promise of marriage.
BTW, I note that FW executing the poor sodomites (both the ones practicising bestiality and the m/m variation) and offering the rich nobility the chance to buy their lives (though with a prison sentence) is one of those things to keep in mind together with his attitude towards Gundling's funeral and the pastors' stand re: same the next time someone praises his tough-but-fair hardcore Protestant Christianity.
Speaking of that:
And on the more chilling and very unusual side of things - not least because lesbian sex was a lot more complicated to judge - a case from 1721, where FW insisted on the death penalty for a woman who had lived as a man, even been a soldier in the War of the Spanish Succession, and had married her partner
Checking the wiki entry you linked, I'd guess she was doubly offensive to him since she kept playing the "repentant sinner", changed faiths, and took Protestants and Catholics alike for what their money was worth when not soldiering (going by the wiki entry, she saw more battlefield action than he ever did). And she used a dildo. He must have felt castrated on every level. Poor woman.
even though those executions were kind of expensive.
This is sadly familiar to me, due to the fact we had a terrible ca. 1000 people death toll in the worst witch craze in my hometown from 1626 - 1630, and after a while, the firewood being expensive became a serious problem - solved by letting the families of the executed pay for it. However, I did not know death through being burned alive (or after a beheading, if FW was feeling merciful) was the standard method of execution for sodomites in a Protestant principality of the 18th century. Keeping in mind that this was when there were a lot of pamphlets talking about the Spanish-Catholic barbarism of their autodafés already.
On a less gruesome note, the article contains so many bestiality details that I repeatedly went "I did not need to know that" inwardly. Poor cows. Poor horses. Whyever weren't there any sheep involved? All the jokes I've come across used sheep.
Going back to my German practice and my Russians, but I just want to say I'm very much enjoying this discussion, will read as much of the article as I can get my hands on, and loled incredibly hard at
On a less gruesome note, the article contains so many bestiality details that I repeatedly went "I did not need to know that" inwardly. Poor cows. Poor horses. Whyever weren't there any sheep involved? All the jokes I've come across used sheep.
:D
On a less gruesome note, the article contains so many bestiality details that I repeatedly went "I did not need to know that" inwardly. Poor cows. Poor horses. Whyever weren't there any sheep involved? All the jokes I've come across used sheep.
:D
the cousin had kept it for her, was put in trial and one of the conditions for not getting burned and getting prison with an option of buying himself out was that he handed over the promise of marriage
Huh. But that would mean that not only did FW make a rich/noble vs. poor difference (which I noted as well and found unsurprising), he also let Saxon politics influence his judgement beyond "exchange Countess for deserters"? Hm.
she saw more battlefield action than he ever did
My thoughts as well. :P
being burned alive (or after a beheading, if FW was feeling merciful) was the standard method of execution for sodomites in a Protestant principality of the 18th century
I guess it's a result of the Carolina, i.e. imperial law with the specified execution method of burning, being the foundation for the Prussian law code at the time.
And 1000 deaths in four years!! That's a lot. (I read a book about the case of Kepler's mother a couple of years ago, which was around the same time, but I didn't remember numbers that high.)
Whyever weren't there any sheep involved?
This actually made me wonder if there were simply more cows and horses around, but then I remembered (at least) Fritz' obsession with having everything manufactured within Prussia, including all the wool coats for his soldiers, so I guess that's not it... Although I honestly don't know what the animal statistics were.
Huh. But that would mean that not only did FW make a rich/noble vs. poor difference (which I noted as well and found unsurprising), he also let Saxon politics influence his judgement beyond "exchange Countess for deserters"? Hm.
she saw more battlefield action than he ever did
My thoughts as well. :P
being burned alive (or after a beheading, if FW was feeling merciful) was the standard method of execution for sodomites in a Protestant principality of the 18th century
I guess it's a result of the Carolina, i.e. imperial law with the specified execution method of burning, being the foundation for the Prussian law code at the time.
And 1000 deaths in four years!! That's a lot. (I read a book about the case of Kepler's mother a couple of years ago, which was around the same time, but I didn't remember numbers that high.)
Whyever weren't there any sheep involved?
This actually made me wonder if there were simply more cows and horses around, but then I remembered (at least) Fritz' obsession with having everything manufactured within Prussia, including all the wool coats for his soldiers, so I guess that's not it... Although I honestly don't know what the animal statistics were.
But that would mean that not only did FW make a rich/noble vs. poor difference (which I noted as well and found unsurprising), he also let Saxon politics influence his judgement beyond "exchange Countess for deserters"? Hm.
It's a theory, based on the timing. It's also possible that Flemming when he saw the cousin got arrested simply pounced, which would of course position he had found out via spy that the cousin was the one who had the marriage promise first. Mind you, none of this is mentioned by Thea von S. in her political Manteuffel biography - let's not forget, Le Diable was the Saxon envoy in Berlin at the time -, and she does quote some lines from Manteuffel to Flemming about organizing the handover of the Countess and her transport back to Berlin (which was one of the last things Manteuffel did as envoy before returning to Saxony). (Manteuffel's general attitude in said lines was: Sorry affair, not that I owe her anything, she never promoted me, unlike you, and it has to be done, but well, sorry affair.)
And 1000 deaths in four years!! That's a lot.
And in a 8000 people town, too. There were entire streets standing empty, afterwards.
BTW, inspired by your post, I came across a novel called "Rosenstengel", which turned out to be a very clever Briefroman, one of the few which manages to intertwine two different timelines. (Something that for example the Zeithain author doesn't manage to do well, imo.) The author got the idea when finding out that the guy who first rediscovered the Catherina Link/Anastasius Rosenstengel case in the late 19th century and published about it had been involved in the case of Ludwig II. (he was the junior assistant of Dr. Gudden, though apparantly did not share his bosses opinion on the question of Ludwig's sanity or lack of same). So in the novel, we on the one hand get the 18th century letters from various people encountering "Rosenstengel" at different points of her/his life, and otoh the letters from various 19th century people, including Ludwig II. and young Dr. Franz Müller, in the last year of Ludwig's life when the conspiracy to get him declared insane is on, but also young Franz is discovering the Rosenstengel case and while originally being sent as a medical spy to Ludwig (since his boss Dr. Gudden is charged with collecting material to declare him insane), he when the lonely King very obviously starts to crush on him starts to requite Ludwig's feelings.
He originally tells Ludwig about his discovery to distract him, but it it becomes a way to communicate, too. And is the occasion for a great meta moment; at one point, Ludwig complaints that there are no letters between "Rosenstengel" and his/her wife, and surely the correspondence between the two lovers should be the highlight of the book, and Müller explains that not only did he not find such letters, it's historically unlikely there were any, given that letter culture was just developing and mostly in the noblity and the rich middle class. This leads to Ludwig and Müller writing each other as "Rosenstengel" and her partner in order to provide what can't exist (and of course to express feelings in a masque.
It's also a clever exploration of changing and unchanging attitudes - both eras have homophobia, but the 19th century people think the 18th century pietists and their readiness to go for visionary prophets were nuts while simultanously displaying attitudes no less bonkers to current day readers. And the 19th century treatment of the mentally ill is of course absolutely gruesome (while the two timelines allow the author to point out it used to be even worse).
Anyway, I can reccommend the novel!
It's a theory, based on the timing. It's also possible that Flemming when he saw the cousin got arrested simply pounced, which would of course position he had found out via spy that the cousin was the one who had the marriage promise first. Mind you, none of this is mentioned by Thea von S. in her political Manteuffel biography - let's not forget, Le Diable was the Saxon envoy in Berlin at the time -, and she does quote some lines from Manteuffel to Flemming about organizing the handover of the Countess and her transport back to Berlin (which was one of the last things Manteuffel did as envoy before returning to Saxony). (Manteuffel's general attitude in said lines was: Sorry affair, not that I owe her anything, she never promoted me, unlike you, and it has to be done, but well, sorry affair.)
And 1000 deaths in four years!! That's a lot.
And in a 8000 people town, too. There were entire streets standing empty, afterwards.
BTW, inspired by your post, I came across a novel called "Rosenstengel", which turned out to be a very clever Briefroman, one of the few which manages to intertwine two different timelines. (Something that for example the Zeithain author doesn't manage to do well, imo.) The author got the idea when finding out that the guy who first rediscovered the Catherina Link/Anastasius Rosenstengel case in the late 19th century and published about it had been involved in the case of Ludwig II. (he was the junior assistant of Dr. Gudden, though apparantly did not share his bosses opinion on the question of Ludwig's sanity or lack of same). So in the novel, we on the one hand get the 18th century letters from various people encountering "Rosenstengel" at different points of her/his life, and otoh the letters from various 19th century people, including Ludwig II. and young Dr. Franz Müller, in the last year of Ludwig's life when the conspiracy to get him declared insane is on, but also young Franz is discovering the Rosenstengel case and while originally being sent as a medical spy to Ludwig (since his boss Dr. Gudden is charged with collecting material to declare him insane), he when the lonely King very obviously starts to crush on him starts to requite Ludwig's feelings.
He originally tells Ludwig about his discovery to distract him, but it it becomes a way to communicate, too. And is the occasion for a great meta moment; at one point, Ludwig complaints that there are no letters between "Rosenstengel" and his/her wife, and surely the correspondence between the two lovers should be the highlight of the book, and Müller explains that not only did he not find such letters, it's historically unlikely there were any, given that letter culture was just developing and mostly in the noblity and the rich middle class. This leads to Ludwig and Müller writing each other as "Rosenstengel" and her partner in order to provide what can't exist (and of course to express feelings in a masque.
It's also a clever exploration of changing and unchanging attitudes - both eras have homophobia, but the 19th century people think the 18th century pietists and their readiness to go for visionary prophets were nuts while simultanously displaying attitudes no less bonkers to current day readers. And the 19th century treatment of the mentally ill is of course absolutely gruesome (while the two timelines allow the author to point out it used to be even worse).
Anyway, I can reccommend the novel!
It is really interesting, but unfortunately I can't rec it to Mildred for German practice because the author does a great job ventriquolizing Rokoko German in the 18th Century sections. That's too tough. (The 19th century sections would be copable, though they do have some chilling sections where two doctors - Müller isn't one of them, but his boss Gudden is - talk about vivisections on animals. (At which point, I guess, a great many readers will wonder who's the crazy one, Ludwig with his Wagner fandom and admittedly out of control money spending, or these guys.)
I can't rec it to Mildred for German practice because the author does a great job ventriquolizing Rokoko German in the 18th Century sections. That's too tough.
Yeeeeeaaah, I can't do that right now. :P Someday!
talk about vivisections on animals
From sex with animals to vivisection of animals in just one week. The universe is clearly out to give you mental images you could have done without. ;)
Yeeeeeaaah, I can't do that right now. :P Someday!
talk about vivisections on animals
From sex with animals to vivisection of animals in just one week. The universe is clearly out to give you mental images you could have done without. ;)
Great find, and thanks for sharing! I see the author also clarifies a much-debated point in salon: "Sodomie" was originally used in German for sexual transgressions in general, as it was in other European languages, which means its meaning only became narrowed to 'bestiality' later.
But...how many pages of this essay can you Germans see? Maybe it's because of regional restrictions, but I can only see 4 pages, 217-220, and unless almost everything you mention is in the footnotes, which I admit I haven't yet read all of, I'm not seeing it in those first 4 pages. The table of contents page that would tell me how long the essay is, is also not in the preview. I suspect it's substantially longer than 4 pages and I'm missing most of it.
Off topic: I was going to share some Russian gossipy sensationalism from my current reading, but this weekend I'm on my first good German-studying streak in a while, so I'm going to run with it as long as it lasts. I'll just say that Montefiore and Massie are both A+ for readability, and the Catherine+Potemkin bio is on my German reading list after Zweig, but meanwhile I'm reading other Montefiore and Massie works in English and very much enjoying myself. Thanks again for the recs,selenak! (Will try the Winter Queen at some point, currently focused on Russia.)
But...how many pages of this essay can you Germans see? Maybe it's because of regional restrictions, but I can only see 4 pages, 217-220, and unless almost everything you mention is in the footnotes, which I admit I haven't yet read all of, I'm not seeing it in those first 4 pages. The table of contents page that would tell me how long the essay is, is also not in the preview. I suspect it's substantially longer than 4 pages and I'm missing most of it.
Off topic: I was going to share some Russian gossipy sensationalism from my current reading, but this weekend I'm on my first good German-studying streak in a while, so I'm going to run with it as long as it lasts. I'll just say that Montefiore and Massie are both A+ for readability, and the Catherine+Potemkin bio is on my German reading list after Zweig, but meanwhile I'm reading other Montefiore and Massie works in English and very much enjoying myself. Thanks again for the recs,
selenak! (Will try the Winter Queen at some point, currently focused on Russia.)Huh. It's 217-252 and I can see everything except the last page. Did you get the blue "not included" stripe or the page with the "limited" note? Because I initially got the latter on a couple of pages in between and simple scrolling up and down fixed it. If it's the blue "not included" line, it has to be a regional thing indeed.
I get the blue stripe saying "pages 221 to 503 are not included in this excerpt."
Neither did I! (I'm still not sure that's what it is, but it's my best guess.)
Alas.
Alas.
Ooh. Firefox worked! Thank you!
I'll see how far I can get with the German, then, next time I'm reading German at the computer instead of on my phone. I want to be appalled by the bestiality details and wondering where all the sheep are too! :P
I'll see how far I can get with the German, then, next time I'm reading German at the computer instead of on my phone. I want to be appalled by the bestiality details and wondering where all the sheep are too! :P
Can't be beat for readability, BUT I just hit my first howler in Massie.
If you thought Orieux getting EC's name wrong (Marie Christine, was it?) was bad, wait till you hear that Frederick II's wife Sophia was the sister of George II, making Fritz G2's brother-in-law.
...
And this in 2011, when Wikipedia had been invented!
Still readable, though. As you said about the Winter Queen book, not a dull sentence to be found in what I've read of either author so far. Which makes Montefiore (who so far has not confused Fritz's wife and mother) an excellent candidate for my next German practice book.
If you thought Orieux getting EC's name wrong (Marie Christine, was it?) was bad, wait till you hear that Frederick II's wife Sophia was the sister of George II, making Fritz G2's brother-in-law.
...
And this in 2011, when Wikipedia had been invented!
Still readable, though. As you said about the Winter Queen book, not a dull sentence to be found in what I've read of either author so far. Which makes Montefiore (who so far has not confused Fritz's wife and mother) an excellent candidate for my next German practice book.
Orieux: yes, "Marie Christine" was his mistake. And LOL about "Sophia the sister of G2" as Mrs. Fritz. Mind you, I feel a bit guilty laughing about both, since pre salon I was barely aware Fritz was married at all, but then, I wasn't writing books featuring him then. As you say, Orieux, writing pre Wikipedia, has the better excuse.
Edited 2021-08-18 05:35 (UTC)
Orieux has two better excuses: he only confused her first name with a common (especially in France) one, not one person with a completely different person, and two, no Wikipedia in his day!
I can laugh totally guilt-free, though, lol, because I knew a fair bit about Fritz, EC, and their marriage already in high school days. Not as much as now (mostly thanks to you), of course! But enough that I wouldn't have called her Sophia and said that she was G2's sister. ;) (At the time, of course, I was writing a book that...I tried very hard not to let feature him, despite my Fritz-muse's desire to promote himself from tertiary character to primary character.)
I can laugh totally guilt-free, though, lol, because I knew a fair bit about Fritz, EC, and their marriage already in high school days. Not as much as now (mostly thanks to you), of course! But enough that I wouldn't have called her Sophia and said that she was G2's sister. ;) (At the time, of course, I was writing a book that...I tried very hard not to let feature him, despite my Fritz-muse's desire to promote himself from tertiary character to primary character.)
Oh, and see if this Montefiore quote makes you laugh:
Potemkin gets jealous of Catherine, accuses her of having had fifteen lovers before him, and threatens to kill his rivals. She writes him an account of how she had FOUR lovers before him, insists she isn't wanton, but explains that she can't live without love for an hour. Montefiore calls this "surely the most extraordinary document ever written by a monarch."
I mean. That's a pretty strong claim to make. Heinrich would like to advance the Marwitz letters as a contender. And I'm just waiting forselenak to offer a number of other examples. :D
Potemkin gets jealous of Catherine, accuses her of having had fifteen lovers before him, and threatens to kill his rivals. She writes him an account of how she had FOUR lovers before him, insists she isn't wanton, but explains that she can't live without love for an hour. Montefiore calls this "surely the most extraordinary document ever written by a monarch."
I mean. That's a pretty strong claim to make. Heinrich would like to advance the Marwitz letters as a contender. And I'm just waiting for
selenak to offer a number of other examples. :DNo kidding. The Marwitz letters do immediately come to mind, but in that century alone you have other strong contenders such as:
- Joseph's letter to brother Leopold about sister Marie Antoinette's and Louis XVI's sex troubles
- Joseph's letter to MT about brother-in-law Ferdinand of Naples
- since the Finnish Sex Machine was careful enough to demand Gustav to put it into written form that the threesome was his idea and order, that document counts, though I haven't read it!
- not sensational, but extraordinary in the sense of deeply touching and as revealing about her emotional life as that statement is about Catherine's: MT's list of how many days since FS had died, since she married him, etc. which was found folded into her prayer book after her death
(Found it again: "emperor franciscus my husband has lived 56 years eight months ten days, has died on August 18th 1765 on half bast ten in the evenig. Has lived 680 months, 2958 weeks, 20778 days, 496992 hours. My happy marriage lasted 29 years, six months, six days, and at the same hour I gave him my hand, also on a Sunday, he was taken from me. In sum 29 years, 335 months, 1540 weeks, 10781 days, 258744 hours.")
- also on a grief note: Joseph's letter to his daughter's governess ("I have ceased to be a father: it is more than I can bear. Despite being resigned to it, I cannot stop myself thinking and saying every moment: ‘O my God, restore to me my daughter, restore her to me.’ I hear her voice, I see her.")
- back to more fun versions of "extraordinary": have only read quotes from the letter, not the letter itself, but G2 telling Caroline all about his new mistress because she's his bff has to count!
And that's not branching out into other centuries. My recent reading has reminded me that Ludwig II., Wagner fan that he was, tried to write his personal letters the way people in Wagner's opera's speak, which makes most of said letters, well, extraordinary, but never more so than when he's corresponding with Wagner himself (who really did not speak or talk like that otherwise and found it incredibly exhausting, but hey, this was not any fanboy, this was the one with the cash!).
- Joseph's letter to brother Leopold about sister Marie Antoinette's and Louis XVI's sex troubles
- Joseph's letter to MT about brother-in-law Ferdinand of Naples
- since the Finnish Sex Machine was careful enough to demand Gustav to put it into written form that the threesome was his idea and order, that document counts, though I haven't read it!
- not sensational, but extraordinary in the sense of deeply touching and as revealing about her emotional life as that statement is about Catherine's: MT's list of how many days since FS had died, since she married him, etc. which was found folded into her prayer book after her death
(Found it again: "emperor franciscus my husband has lived 56 years eight months ten days, has died on August 18th 1765 on half bast ten in the evenig. Has lived 680 months, 2958 weeks, 20778 days, 496992 hours. My happy marriage lasted 29 years, six months, six days, and at the same hour I gave him my hand, also on a Sunday, he was taken from me. In sum 29 years, 335 months, 1540 weeks, 10781 days, 258744 hours.")
- also on a grief note: Joseph's letter to his daughter's governess ("I have ceased to be a father: it is more than I can bear. Despite being resigned to it, I cannot stop myself thinking and saying every moment: ‘O my God, restore to me my daughter, restore her to me.’ I hear her voice, I see her.")
- back to more fun versions of "extraordinary": have only read quotes from the letter, not the letter itself, but G2 telling Caroline all about his new mistress because she's his bff has to count!
And that's not branching out into other centuries. My recent reading has reminded me that Ludwig II., Wagner fan that he was, tried to write his personal letters the way people in Wagner's opera's speak, which makes most of said letters, well, extraordinary, but never more so than when he's corresponding with Wagner himself (who really did not speak or talk like that otherwise and found it incredibly exhausting, but hey, this was not any fanboy, this was the one with the cash!).
Edited 2021-08-18 05:27 (UTC)
Re: Extraordinary documents by monarchs, you say?
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-18 12:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I knew you were going to come here with some document that would make me go OH RIGHT.
OH RIGHT, the Finnish sex machine and the royal threesome! We should try to get our hands on that someday.
G2 telling Caroline all about his new mistress because she's his bff has to count!
Apparently future Peter III did this with his bff, Catherine, although because they lived together, I doubt it was ever put into writing.
Wagner fan that he was, tried to write his personal letters the way people in Wagner's opera's speak, which makes most of said letters, well, extraordinary, but never more so than when he's corresponding with Wagner himself (who really did not speak or talk like that otherwise and found it incredibly exhausting
Lol, that's hilarious! I'm reminded of a physics professor I had, who said that when he first went to Germany, most of his exposure to German had come from Wagner, and that meant he did things like compliment a police officer on his "noble steed."
Police officer: ...You learned German from Wagner, didn't you?
Prof: Does it show?
OH RIGHT, the Finnish sex machine and the royal threesome! We should try to get our hands on that someday.
G2 telling Caroline all about his new mistress because she's his bff has to count!
Apparently future Peter III did this with his bff, Catherine, although because they lived together, I doubt it was ever put into writing.
Wagner fan that he was, tried to write his personal letters the way people in Wagner's opera's speak, which makes most of said letters, well, extraordinary, but never more so than when he's corresponding with Wagner himself (who really did not speak or talk like that otherwise and found it incredibly exhausting
Lol, that's hilarious! I'm reminded of a physics professor I had, who said that when he first went to Germany, most of his exposure to German had come from Wagner, and that meant he did things like compliment a police officer on his "noble steed."
Police officer: ...You learned German from Wagner, didn't you?
Prof: Does it show?
Apparently future Peter III did this with his bff, Catherine, although because they lived together, I doubt it was ever put into writing.
Maybe we should add he did this at a point when Catherine hadn't yet had any lovers of her own.
LOL on your Professor. The thing is, nobody ever talked the way characters in Wagner's operas do. He fashioned their language after some elements of medieval German poetry plus some elements of what 19th century linguists like Jacob Grimm had deduced about pre medieval German, mixed and mingled and was creative about it according to his needs. (For example, the reason why he uses the "Stabreim", the alliterative rhyming, so often, isn't that it was dominant in what survives of old and medieval German but that it was easiest to sing, which makes sense for a composer!
Maybe we should add he did this at a point when Catherine hadn't yet had any lovers of her own.
LOL on your Professor. The thing is, nobody ever talked the way characters in Wagner's operas do. He fashioned their language after some elements of medieval German poetry plus some elements of what 19th century linguists like Jacob Grimm had deduced about pre medieval German, mixed and mingled and was creative about it according to his needs. (For example, the reason why he uses the "Stabreim", the alliterative rhyming, so often, isn't that it was dominant in what survives of old and medieval German but that it was easiest to sing, which makes sense for a composer!
Re: Extraordinary documents by monarchs, you say?
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-19 01:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Lol, yeah, my prof said he used "Ross" instead of "Pferd," and explained that that was the equivalent of "steed" instead of "horse." Wiktionary tells me
Ross is a normal word for “horse”, alongside Pferd, in many parts of southern Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. In northern and central Germany, Ross is not part of the colloquial vocabulary and is perceived as poetic, archaic, or restricted to noble riding horses.
For example, the reason why he uses the "Stabreim", the alliterative rhyming, so often, isn't that it was dominant in what survives of old and medieval German but that it was easiest to sing, which makes sense for a composer!
On the one hand, no, nobody believes ancient Germanic speakers *spoke* in alliteration, in prose. If you went back in time a thousand years and started chatting in Stabreim, people would be just as weirded out as Ludwig's contemporaries. ;) But on the other hand, since alliteration was the dominant poetic device in all the Germanic languages, including Old High German, before rhyme took over, I'd be surprised if the ancient poetic tradition didn't influence Wagner's choice at all. The Nibelungenlied, because it's in Middle High German, is in rhyming verse, but the Norse Eddas are alliterative.
Maybe we should add he did this at a point when Catherine hadn't yet had any lovers of her own.
Yes. Yes, he did. The thing is, Elizaveta was deliberately trying to keep her nephew isolated from power, surrounded by strict/abusive guardians, and also isolated with his wife so that they'd be forced to spend time together and finally beget that heir. (Like Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI, Catherine and Peter's marriage was unconsummated for several years. Like Louis, there were
stories about Peter needing an operation on his penis, for the same condition.) So Peter had a limited set of people, especially in his own class, that he *could* talk to. And Catherine was doing her best to make herself liked, because her position was very insecure and she knew her husband would have absolute power someday. So she was super nice, Peter decided she was his BFF, Peter wasn't particularly interested in sleeping with his BFF, and he hit on her ladies in waiting and told his BFF all about it.
Also, per the authors I've been reading, Catherine was trying to keep her lover Saltykov a secret from Elizaveta long after Peter knew and thought it was hilarious.
(You'll think her lovers are a lot less hilarious in 1762, Peter.)
Ross is a normal word for “horse”, alongside Pferd, in many parts of southern Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. In northern and central Germany, Ross is not part of the colloquial vocabulary and is perceived as poetic, archaic, or restricted to noble riding horses.
For example, the reason why he uses the "Stabreim", the alliterative rhyming, so often, isn't that it was dominant in what survives of old and medieval German but that it was easiest to sing, which makes sense for a composer!
On the one hand, no, nobody believes ancient Germanic speakers *spoke* in alliteration, in prose. If you went back in time a thousand years and started chatting in Stabreim, people would be just as weirded out as Ludwig's contemporaries. ;) But on the other hand, since alliteration was the dominant poetic device in all the Germanic languages, including Old High German, before rhyme took over, I'd be surprised if the ancient poetic tradition didn't influence Wagner's choice at all. The Nibelungenlied, because it's in Middle High German, is in rhyming verse, but the Norse Eddas are alliterative.
Maybe we should add he did this at a point when Catherine hadn't yet had any lovers of her own.
Yes. Yes, he did. The thing is, Elizaveta was deliberately trying to keep her nephew isolated from power, surrounded by strict/abusive guardians, and also isolated with his wife so that they'd be forced to spend time together and finally beget that heir. (Like Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI, Catherine and Peter's marriage was unconsummated for several years. Like Louis, there were
stories about Peter needing an operation on his penis, for the same condition.) So Peter had a limited set of people, especially in his own class, that he *could* talk to. And Catherine was doing her best to make herself liked, because her position was very insecure and she knew her husband would have absolute power someday. So she was super nice, Peter decided she was his BFF, Peter wasn't particularly interested in sleeping with his BFF, and he hit on her ladies in waiting and told his BFF all about it.
Also, per the authors I've been reading, Catherine was trying to keep her lover Saltykov a secret from Elizaveta long after Peter knew and thought it was hilarious.
(You'll think her lovers are a lot less hilarious in 1762, Peter.)
This is like Greatest Hits of Gossipy Sensationalism! :D <3
Okay, I... kinda want some of these quotes from G2 telling BFF Caroline about his mistress. Are they in the Dennison book? I do mean to read that one of these days, so if they are, that will definitely be an additional incentive!
AHAHAHA Wagner-opera-speak! Oh, lol, that's hilarious.
Okay, I... kinda want some of these quotes from G2 telling BFF Caroline about his mistress. Are they in the Dennison book? I do mean to read that one of these days, so if they are, that will definitely be an additional incentive!
AHAHAHA Wagner-opera-speak! Oh, lol, that's hilarious.
No, the quotes are minmal and in fact based on Hervey's memoirs - i.e. what Hervey says he wrote. The passage in Dennison's book goes:
From Hanover in the summer of 1735, in a torrent of letters of forensic detail, George Augustus shared with Caroline the progress of his nascent affair with this 'young married woman of the first
fashion '. He praised Amalie's face while denying her beauty or wit. 'Had the Queen been a painter ,' Hervey commented,' she might have drawn her rival's picture at six hundred miles distance.'
And that's it. Since it's a paraphrased passage from Hervey's Memoirs, I suspect the original letter(s) might no longer exist.
Ludwig writing in Wagner Opera speak both in rl and ventriloquized in the novel truly was quite...something (and sometimes touching, as when he writes to the young doctor "Du bist der Lenz" (you know, Sieglinde to Siegmund from Valkyrie), but I'm tickled about Mildred's tale of someone not Ludwig II. trying this in rl! Noble steed indeed. :)
From Hanover in the summer of 1735, in a torrent of letters of forensic detail, George Augustus shared with Caroline the progress of his nascent affair with this 'young married woman of the first
fashion '. He praised Amalie's face while denying her beauty or wit. 'Had the Queen been a painter ,' Hervey commented,' she might have drawn her rival's picture at six hundred miles distance.'
And that's it. Since it's a paraphrased passage from Hervey's Memoirs, I suspect the original letter(s) might no longer exist.
Ludwig writing in Wagner Opera speak both in rl and ventriloquized in the novel truly was quite...something (and sometimes touching, as when he writes to the young doctor "Du bist der Lenz" (you know, Sieglinde to Siegmund from Valkyrie), but I'm tickled about Mildred's tale of someone not Ludwig II. trying this in rl! Noble steed indeed. :)
And on the more chilling and very unusual side of things - not least because lesbian sex was a lot more complicated to judge - a case from 1721, where FW insisted on the death penalty for a woman who had lived as a man, even been a soldier in the War of the Spanish Succession, and had married her partner (see her wiki entry).
Wow, that's terrible but also quite fascinating.
i.e. no ejaculation = crime not completed = no death penalty. FW gave the order that this shouldn't matter, death penalty was possible regardless of ejaculation, and mercy should only depend on his decision.
I... feel like... this is FW (and I guess whoever else was involved in this whole lawmaking process) thinking WAY TOO HARD about the fine points of bestiality :P
which included all the school kids taking part and singing eight hymns.
Who thought this was a good idea?? Oh, right, FW. *facepalm*
Wow, that's terrible but also quite fascinating.
i.e. no ejaculation = crime not completed = no death penalty. FW gave the order that this shouldn't matter, death penalty was possible regardless of ejaculation, and mercy should only depend on his decision.
I... feel like... this is FW (and I guess whoever else was involved in this whole lawmaking process) thinking WAY TOO HARD about the fine points of bestiality :P
which included all the school kids taking part and singing eight hymns.
Who thought this was a good idea?? Oh, right, FW. *facepalm*
Fascinating to get thoughts he wrote down just for himself, not tailored for any letter recipient!
Very interesting how much Fritz' pragmatism comes through in comments like this:
If one measured all actions of all people by this strict standard, there wouldn't be a heroic deed left.
or this:
If a citizen contributes something good to public welfare: if he does it only for the pleasure of doing good, he's all the more admirable, but if he does it for the sake of fame, the principle isn't as nice, but surely the effect is the same!
There's probably some self-reflection in there, both when it comes to motivations like fame, as well as the fact that judging people's motivations vs. their actions is hard.
Fritz has STRONG OPINIONS in his marginalia, of which there are three on one page.
Yeah, given how often he brings up Cato and suicide over the years, this really isn't surprising at all. Including the "power over oneself" angle.
This is a means which should be used only with great caution, for the obvious reason that you can only do it once.
Ha. Pithy.
Very interesting how much Fritz' pragmatism comes through in comments like this:
If one measured all actions of all people by this strict standard, there wouldn't be a heroic deed left.
or this:
If a citizen contributes something good to public welfare: if he does it only for the pleasure of doing good, he's all the more admirable, but if he does it for the sake of fame, the principle isn't as nice, but surely the effect is the same!
There's probably some self-reflection in there, both when it comes to motivations like fame, as well as the fact that judging people's motivations vs. their actions is hard.
Fritz has STRONG OPINIONS in his marginalia, of which there are three on one page.
Yeah, given how often he brings up Cato and suicide over the years, this really isn't surprising at all. Including the "power over oneself" angle.
This is a means which should be used only with great caution, for the obvious reason that you can only do it once.
Ha. Pithy.
(ugh, I promise I will respond to more things! someday! RL is just giving me very little computer free time right now)
To which I say, well, so was Voltaire, and his preface to his Charles XII. history is satiric fun about why he doesn't buy what a lot of ancient historians serve up due to the obvious contradictions, and thus he feels at liberty to go for the most likely (in his opinion) explanation there as in more modern histories.
Ha, well, we all can't be Voltaire ;)for which we are all very grateful But seriously, I got the impression Voltaire was kind of far out on the source-critical side compared to his contemporaries? (Mostly from his and Emilie's propensity to source-criticize the Bible, which I figured wasn't necessarily a common thing?)
Meanwhile, the preface insists Fritz must have known Montesquieu is the much, much deeper writer than Voltaire and wonders why he made Montesquieu an honorable member of the Berlin Academy but didn't invite him
This, on the other hand, LOL!
because surely Montesquieu wouldn't have disappointed him the way a certain shallow other French writer did!
...on the other hand, I mean, Montesquieu... probably... wouldn't have gotten into so manyfandom wanks problematic situations :)
Totally would have done the same thing, though possibly I'd have gone for a Voltaire work instead in the hope of finding more shippy hilarity,
WOULD TOTALLY READ THIS FIC
(Or, one might say, Fritz in Bohemia in Silesia 2.)
heeee!
To this, a Fritz who sounds as if he's definitely King Fritz and familiar with several peace treaties with MT, not just one, comments:
This is very well thought of a great King who can face many of his enemies at the same time. But a prince whose military strength and power is lesser has to accomodate his era and circumstances somewhat more.
Heh, Fritz. Learned a bit, did you?
Montesquieu: Caesar, who had always been an enemy of the Senate, couldn't disguise the contempt he felt for this body which had become a mockery of itself since losing power. This is why even his clemency was an insult. One saw he didn't forgive, but that he simply declined to punish.
Fritz: This thought is exaggarated! If one measured all actions of all people by this strict standard, there wouildn't be a heroic deed left. He who proves too much proves nothing!
LOL! I bet Heinrich might have had something to say about that... (And Mina might have had something to say about that...)
Fritz: If a citizen contributes something good to public welfare: if he does it only for the pleasure of doing good, he's all the more admirable, but if he does it for the sake of fame, the principle isn't as nice, but surely the effect is the same!
FRITZ, this is so you! :D (And thank you for the background on Cato and Cicero!)
This is a means which should be used only with great caution, for the obvious reason that you can only do it once.
Heh. And then, on the other hand, threatening suicide can be done more than once...
This is really interesting, and cool to have Fritz's annotations, thank you!
To which I say, well, so was Voltaire, and his preface to his Charles XII. history is satiric fun about why he doesn't buy what a lot of ancient historians serve up due to the obvious contradictions, and thus he feels at liberty to go for the most likely (in his opinion) explanation there as in more modern histories.
Ha, well, we all can't be Voltaire ;)
Meanwhile, the preface insists Fritz must have known Montesquieu is the much, much deeper writer than Voltaire and wonders why he made Montesquieu an honorable member of the Berlin Academy but didn't invite him
This, on the other hand, LOL!
because surely Montesquieu wouldn't have disappointed him the way a certain shallow other French writer did!
...on the other hand, I mean, Montesquieu... probably... wouldn't have gotten into so many
Totally would have done the same thing, though possibly I'd have gone for a Voltaire work instead in the hope of finding more shippy hilarity,
WOULD TOTALLY READ THIS FIC
(Or, one might say, Fritz in Bohemia in Silesia 2.)
heeee!
To this, a Fritz who sounds as if he's definitely King Fritz and familiar with several peace treaties with MT, not just one, comments:
This is very well thought of a great King who can face many of his enemies at the same time. But a prince whose military strength and power is lesser has to accomodate his era and circumstances somewhat more.
Heh, Fritz. Learned a bit, did you?
Montesquieu: Caesar, who had always been an enemy of the Senate, couldn't disguise the contempt he felt for this body which had become a mockery of itself since losing power. This is why even his clemency was an insult. One saw he didn't forgive, but that he simply declined to punish.
Fritz: This thought is exaggarated! If one measured all actions of all people by this strict standard, there wouildn't be a heroic deed left. He who proves too much proves nothing!
LOL! I bet Heinrich might have had something to say about that... (And Mina might have had something to say about that...)
Fritz: If a citizen contributes something good to public welfare: if he does it only for the pleasure of doing good, he's all the more admirable, but if he does it for the sake of fame, the principle isn't as nice, but surely the effect is the same!
FRITZ, this is so you! :D (And thank you for the background on Cato and Cicero!)
This is a means which should be used only with great caution, for the obvious reason that you can only do it once.
Heh. And then, on the other hand, threatening suicide can be done more than once...
This is really interesting, and cool to have Fritz's annotations, thank you!
Re: Montesquieu II: With added Fritz commentary on clemency, courage, fame and suicide
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-08 10:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Ha, well, we all can't be Voltaire ;) for which we are all very grateful But seriously, I got the impression Voltaire was kind of far out on the source-critical side compared to his contemporaries? (Mostly from his and Emilie's propensity to source-criticize the Bible, which I figured wasn't necessarily a common thing?)
Not unprecedented (I am reading about a 1730s German translation of the Bible that was censored, and the intellectual predecessors of this translation, which gives me some examples), but definitely a minority.
Totally would have done the same thing, though possibly I'd have gone for a Voltaire work instead in the hope of finding more shippy hilarity,
WOULD TOTALLY READ THIS FIC
HEEE! Prompt: "Mildred and Selena go to Sanssouci."
Self-insert FTW!
Heh. And then, on the other hand, threatening suicide can be done more than once...
Therapy for everyone. :/
This is really interesting, and cool to have Fritz's annotations, thank you!
Yes, it really is! Also, we've come quite far in salon; as Selena points out, this is a very niche interest. :D (I would totallyget Selena to read his commentary on Algarotti's works, shame we don't have them.)
Not unprecedented (I am reading about a 1730s German translation of the Bible that was censored, and the intellectual predecessors of this translation, which gives me some examples), but definitely a minority.
Totally would have done the same thing, though possibly I'd have gone for a Voltaire work instead in the hope of finding more shippy hilarity,
WOULD TOTALLY READ THIS FIC
HEEE! Prompt: "Mildred and Selena go to Sanssouci."
Self-insert FTW!
Heh. And then, on the other hand, threatening suicide can be done more than once...
Therapy for everyone. :/
This is really interesting, and cool to have Fritz's annotations, thank you!
Yes, it really is! Also, we've come quite far in salon; as Selena points out, this is a very niche interest. :D (I would totally
Most of these remarks sound like older Fritz (imo, you might disagree). Otoh, here are a few sounding like Crown Prince Fritz to me.
Montesquieu on how once Rome was ruled by the Emperors generals who were too successful were side-eyed suspiciously:
One had to dose one's fame so carefully that it only attracted the attention but not the jealousy of the monarch, and one wasn't allowed to appear in front of him in a splendor which his eyes could not have born.
Fritz: This is a principle which one is forced to adapt even today, as if it wasn't the same to public welfare by which hand it's caused and whose hands seals it.
Montesquieu on Tiberius (the very Emperor whom Frau von Blaspiel compared FW to): Since the hypocrisy and the dark temper of the prince spread everwhere, friendship became regarded as a danger, frankness as foolishness and virtue as unnatural vanity which could have made people recall the happiness of past times.
Fritz (after underlining this very strongly): A tyrant of the soul is a very dangerous being. He is not content with oppressing people, no, he wants that one blesses the hand which forces one on the ground and torments one.
What intrigues me that he didn't underline the very next lines of Montesquieu's text, which are even more adroit:
Montesquieu: There is no more cruel tyranny than the one conducted under the cover of law and painted over by the semblance of justice, for that means to drown people who escaped a ship wreckage even through the wood they're clutching.
After Tiberius, Caligula becomes Emperor, and it gets possibly subtextual again.
Montesquieu about Caligula going from no power to all power: The same mentality which causes somebody to be impressed by absolute power exerted by a ruler means they are no less impressed when exerting that power themselves.
Fritz (underlining and commenting at length): Pure weakness which lets us admire those taking a higher position in the world with enthusiasm. Our eyes are dazzled by the allure of their office and their power. This leads one to admire oneself as well when one has assumed a position which one has feared for such a long time and has been so very eager to assume.
Human beings let their happiness consist to a great deal in the way the public imagines this, and as long as one assumes them to be happy, they don't care they are, in fact, not. They are simply pleased to know they are feared, for this provides them with an idea of the superiority of their person and basically equates them with the Almighty.
(Heinrich: ....)
Montesquieu goes on about how the worst Emperors, Nero, Caracalla, Caligula, Commodus, weren't the most unpopular but on the contrary were loved by the people and missed by them (hence all the fake Neros, for example) since the bread and games tactic totally worked and these Emperors allowed the Romans to channel their worst instincts, very unlike the noble Senate where the noble families (now plundered by the evil Emperors) had ruled and given laws to the people.
Fritz comments, not really apropos what Montesquieu is aiming at: As soon as a prince has laid a foundation of principles, he very easily switches to believing himself to be always right out of self love that makes him dislike anyone who dare to doubt the symbol of his perfection.
Fritz is a bit more source crictical than Montesquieu when it comes to the Emperors and wonders in his comments whether there were truly only five good ones in all those centuries or whether maybe the historians could have been biased: It is still strange that the entirety of Roman history offers a very voluminous catalogue of great men, while the history of the Emperors just explodes with monsters. Maybe there were some exaggarations in the bad qualities ascribed to the Emperors? Or should one only know the Romans as a whole and never as individuals in order to still respect them?
Otoh, Fritz and Montesquieu are united in misogyny when it comes to Theodora the Empress, wife of Justinian.
Montesquieu: Justinian had taken his wife from the theatre where she'd been a prostitute for a long time. She ruled him with an influence unparalleled in history. And since she kept bringing the moods and passions of her sex into politics, she spoiled the most beautiful victories and successes.
Fritz: Any government in which the men show the miserable weakness of allowing women to participate will always feel the consequences of their moods and passions.
MT, Madame de Pompadour, Elisaveta: He had it coming! He had it coming! He only had himself to blame!
These are just some of the lines and quotes. It's a truly interesting document, and I'm glad to have bought it.
Montesquieu on how once Rome was ruled by the Emperors generals who were too successful were side-eyed suspiciously:
One had to dose one's fame so carefully that it only attracted the attention but not the jealousy of the monarch, and one wasn't allowed to appear in front of him in a splendor which his eyes could not have born.
Fritz: This is a principle which one is forced to adapt even today, as if it wasn't the same to public welfare by which hand it's caused and whose hands seals it.
Montesquieu on Tiberius (the very Emperor whom Frau von Blaspiel compared FW to): Since the hypocrisy and the dark temper of the prince spread everwhere, friendship became regarded as a danger, frankness as foolishness and virtue as unnatural vanity which could have made people recall the happiness of past times.
Fritz (after underlining this very strongly): A tyrant of the soul is a very dangerous being. He is not content with oppressing people, no, he wants that one blesses the hand which forces one on the ground and torments one.
What intrigues me that he didn't underline the very next lines of Montesquieu's text, which are even more adroit:
Montesquieu: There is no more cruel tyranny than the one conducted under the cover of law and painted over by the semblance of justice, for that means to drown people who escaped a ship wreckage even through the wood they're clutching.
After Tiberius, Caligula becomes Emperor, and it gets possibly subtextual again.
Montesquieu about Caligula going from no power to all power: The same mentality which causes somebody to be impressed by absolute power exerted by a ruler means they are no less impressed when exerting that power themselves.
Fritz (underlining and commenting at length): Pure weakness which lets us admire those taking a higher position in the world with enthusiasm. Our eyes are dazzled by the allure of their office and their power. This leads one to admire oneself as well when one has assumed a position which one has feared for such a long time and has been so very eager to assume.
Human beings let their happiness consist to a great deal in the way the public imagines this, and as long as one assumes them to be happy, they don't care they are, in fact, not. They are simply pleased to know they are feared, for this provides them with an idea of the superiority of their person and basically equates them with the Almighty.
(Heinrich: ....)
Montesquieu goes on about how the worst Emperors, Nero, Caracalla, Caligula, Commodus, weren't the most unpopular but on the contrary were loved by the people and missed by them (hence all the fake Neros, for example) since the bread and games tactic totally worked and these Emperors allowed the Romans to channel their worst instincts, very unlike the noble Senate where the noble families (now plundered by the evil Emperors) had ruled and given laws to the people.
Fritz comments, not really apropos what Montesquieu is aiming at: As soon as a prince has laid a foundation of principles, he very easily switches to believing himself to be always right out of self love that makes him dislike anyone who dare to doubt the symbol of his perfection.
Fritz is a bit more source crictical than Montesquieu when it comes to the Emperors and wonders in his comments whether there were truly only five good ones in all those centuries or whether maybe the historians could have been biased: It is still strange that the entirety of Roman history offers a very voluminous catalogue of great men, while the history of the Emperors just explodes with monsters. Maybe there were some exaggarations in the bad qualities ascribed to the Emperors? Or should one only know the Romans as a whole and never as individuals in order to still respect them?
Otoh, Fritz and Montesquieu are united in misogyny when it comes to Theodora the Empress, wife of Justinian.
Montesquieu: Justinian had taken his wife from the theatre where she'd been a prostitute for a long time. She ruled him with an influence unparalleled in history. And since she kept bringing the moods and passions of her sex into politics, she spoiled the most beautiful victories and successes.
Fritz: Any government in which the men show the miserable weakness of allowing women to participate will always feel the consequences of their moods and passions.
MT, Madame de Pompadour, Elisaveta: He had it coming! He had it coming! He only had himself to blame!
These are just some of the lines and quotes. It's a truly interesting document, and I'm glad to have bought it.
Edited 2021-08-06 08:04 (UTC)
Re: Montesquieu III: In which Fritz comments on tyrants, their successors and women in Politics
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-07 11:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Fritz: This is a principle which one is forced to adapt even today, as if it wasn't the same to public welfare by which hand it's caused and whose hands seals it.
Yeah, that sounds one of those "sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander" things that he'll do an about-face on between the 1730s and 1740s. Gotta keep those princes of the blood from scheming, after all!
There is no more cruel tyranny than the one conducted under the cover of law and painted over by the semblance of justice
Oof. Too close to home, maybe. :(
They are simply pleased to know they are feared, for this provides them with an idea of the superiority of their person and basically equates them with the Almighty.
(Heinrich: ....)
Lol!
Fritz is a bit more source crictical than Montesquieu when it comes to the Emperors and wonders in his comments whether there were truly only five good ones in all those centuries or whether maybe the historians could have been biased:
Oooh, that is another really interesting one to me. Especially since I was struck by how *non* source critical Fritz was with Roman myth (when Voltaire was being very source critical) and specifically with Remusberg.
MT, Madame de Pompadour, Elisaveta: He had it coming! He had it coming! He only had himself to blame!
Ha! Very true. FRITZ!
These are just some of the lines and quotes. It's a truly interesting document, and I'm glad to have bought it.
Oh good, I'm glad it was available in German at an affordable price. Thanks as always for sharing!
Yeah, that sounds one of those "sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander" things that he'll do an about-face on between the 1730s and 1740s. Gotta keep those princes of the blood from scheming, after all!
There is no more cruel tyranny than the one conducted under the cover of law and painted over by the semblance of justice
Oof. Too close to home, maybe. :(
They are simply pleased to know they are feared, for this provides them with an idea of the superiority of their person and basically equates them with the Almighty.
(Heinrich: ....)
Lol!
Fritz is a bit more source crictical than Montesquieu when it comes to the Emperors and wonders in his comments whether there were truly only five good ones in all those centuries or whether maybe the historians could have been biased:
Oooh, that is another really interesting one to me. Especially since I was struck by how *non* source critical Fritz was with Roman myth (when Voltaire was being very source critical) and specifically with Remusberg.
MT, Madame de Pompadour, Elisaveta: He had it coming! He had it coming! He only had himself to blame!
Ha! Very true. FRITZ!
These are just some of the lines and quotes. It's a truly interesting document, and I'm glad to have bought it.
Oh good, I'm glad it was available in German at an affordable price. Thanks as always for sharing!
Especially since I was struck by how *non* source critical Fritz was with Roman myth (when Voltaire was being very source critical) and specifically with Remusberg.
Which would argue that it's not Crown Prince but King Fritz being source sceptical. He knows that a monarch's gotta do what a monarch's gotta do sometimes, after all, and yet people are always complaining! *veg*
Which would argue that it's not Crown Prince but King Fritz being source sceptical. He knows that a monarch's gotta do what a monarch's gotta do sometimes, after all, and yet people are always complaining! *veg*
But -- wasn't he always aware that Remusberg was a story he liked to tell but that it wasn't anywhere near actual history? That's how it came across to me in his letters at least. And then there was the exchange with Voltaire regarding their Peter the Great disillusionment, where Fritz talks about historiography and how stories and rulers are shaped by the people writing them. So he was clearly aware of the issue as a Crown Prince, at least in theory.
Re: Montesquieu III: In which Fritz comments on tyrants, their successors and women in Politics
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-08 10:12 pm (UTC)(link)
But -- wasn't he always aware that Remusberg was a story he liked to tell but that it wasn't anywhere near actual history? That's how it came across to me in his letters at least.
Huh. Maybe I'm just an unironic reader, ascahn is always saying of herself and which definitely applies to me, but I took Fritz's comments at face value. So did Hamilton in his Rheinsberg volume:
Voltaire having once let fall the word 'chimerical' with reference to the accounts of early Roman history, Frederick, greatly surprised—it seems he had held these as gospel, whilst scorning the modern impostures of the Christian annals—took him to task.
Though he's far from reliable, I have to say, in this case, my reading is the same as his. Here are my sources (Google translated):
Voltaire, in Le Mondain, writes:
je veux croire
Des vieux Romains la chimérique histoire.
I want to believe
the chimerical story of the old Romans
Fritz reads it and comments:
Can we give the epithet of chimera to Roman history, history proven by the testimony of so many authors, so many respectable monuments of antiquity, and an infinity of medals, of which it would only be necessary a part to establish the truths of religion? The standards of hay of the Romans are unknown to me; my ignorance cannot be used as an excuse, but, as far as I can remember, their first standards were hands adjusted at the top of a pole.
Voltaire's defense:
With regard to the earliest times in their [the Romans'] history, I report to your Royal Highness as in all the earliest times. What do you think of Remus and Romulus, son of the god Mars? of the wolf? the woodpecker? the cool head of a man who built the Capitol? gods of Lavinium who returned on foot from Alba to Lavinium? of Castor and Pollux fighting at Lake Régille? of Attius Naevius who cut stones with a razor? of the vestal that pulled a vessel with her belt? the palladium? shields fallen from the sky? finally Mucius Scaevola, Lucretia, Horaces, Curtius, stories no less chimerical than the miracles of which I have just spoken? Monseigneur, we must put all of this in Odin's room, with our holy bulb, the Virgin's shirt, the sacred foreskin, and the books of our monks.
Fritz on Remus:
As for the early days of Roman history, I saw myself committed to supporting its truth, and that, for a reason that will surprise you. To explain it to you, I am obliged to enter into a detail which I will try to shorten as much as possible.
A few years ago we found in a Vatican manuscript the story of Romulus and Remus, reported in a completely different way from that of which it is known to us. This manuscript is proof that Rémus escaped from the pursuit of his brother, and that, to hide from his jealous fury, he took refuge in the northern provinces of Germania, towards the banks of the Elbe; that he built there a town situated near a large lake, to which he gave his name; and that, after his death, he was buried on an island which, rising from the bosom of the waters, forms a kind of mountain in the middle of the lake.
Two monks came here, four years ago, from the pope, to discover the place that Rémus founded, according to the description I have just given. They judged that it must be Remusberg, or as that which would say Mont Rémus. These good fathers made dig in the island, from all sides, to discover the ashes of Rémus. Either they have not been preserved carefully enough, or the time, which destroys everything, has confused them with the earth, what is certain is that they have found nothing.
One thing that is no more proven than that is that, about a hundred years ago, laying the foundations of this castle, we found two stones on which was engraved the story of the flight of vultures. Although the figures were very erased, we could recognize something. Our ancestor Goths, unfortunately very ignorant, and little curious about antiquities, neglected to preserve these precious monuments of history for us, and consequently left us in obscure uncertainty as to the truth of such an important fact.
We found, not three months ago, by stirring the soil in the garden, an urn and Roman coins, but which were so old, that the corner was almost erased. I sent them to M. de La Croze. He judged that their antiquity could be from seventeen to eighteen centuries.
I hope, sir, that you will be grateful to me for the anecdote that I have just taught you, and that, in its favor, you will excuse the interest that I take in everything that can look at the history of one of the founders of Rome, of which I believe to keep the ashes. Besides, I am not accused of too much gullibility. If I sin, it is not by superstition.
He seems pretty sincere to me; what do you think?
Huh. Maybe I'm just an unironic reader, as
cahn is always saying of herself and which definitely applies to me, but I took Fritz's comments at face value. So did Hamilton in his Rheinsberg volume:Voltaire having once let fall the word 'chimerical' with reference to the accounts of early Roman history, Frederick, greatly surprised—it seems he had held these as gospel, whilst scorning the modern impostures of the Christian annals—took him to task.
Though he's far from reliable, I have to say, in this case, my reading is the same as his. Here are my sources (Google translated):
Voltaire, in Le Mondain, writes:
je veux croire
Des vieux Romains la chimérique histoire.
I want to believe
the chimerical story of the old Romans
Fritz reads it and comments:
Can we give the epithet of chimera to Roman history, history proven by the testimony of so many authors, so many respectable monuments of antiquity, and an infinity of medals, of which it would only be necessary a part to establish the truths of religion? The standards of hay of the Romans are unknown to me; my ignorance cannot be used as an excuse, but, as far as I can remember, their first standards were hands adjusted at the top of a pole.
Voltaire's defense:
With regard to the earliest times in their [the Romans'] history, I report to your Royal Highness as in all the earliest times. What do you think of Remus and Romulus, son of the god Mars? of the wolf? the woodpecker? the cool head of a man who built the Capitol? gods of Lavinium who returned on foot from Alba to Lavinium? of Castor and Pollux fighting at Lake Régille? of Attius Naevius who cut stones with a razor? of the vestal that pulled a vessel with her belt? the palladium? shields fallen from the sky? finally Mucius Scaevola, Lucretia, Horaces, Curtius, stories no less chimerical than the miracles of which I have just spoken? Monseigneur, we must put all of this in Odin's room, with our holy bulb, the Virgin's shirt, the sacred foreskin, and the books of our monks.
Fritz on Remus:
As for the early days of Roman history, I saw myself committed to supporting its truth, and that, for a reason that will surprise you. To explain it to you, I am obliged to enter into a detail which I will try to shorten as much as possible.
A few years ago we found in a Vatican manuscript the story of Romulus and Remus, reported in a completely different way from that of which it is known to us. This manuscript is proof that Rémus escaped from the pursuit of his brother, and that, to hide from his jealous fury, he took refuge in the northern provinces of Germania, towards the banks of the Elbe; that he built there a town situated near a large lake, to which he gave his name; and that, after his death, he was buried on an island which, rising from the bosom of the waters, forms a kind of mountain in the middle of the lake.
Two monks came here, four years ago, from the pope, to discover the place that Rémus founded, according to the description I have just given. They judged that it must be Remusberg, or as that which would say Mont Rémus. These good fathers made dig in the island, from all sides, to discover the ashes of Rémus. Either they have not been preserved carefully enough, or the time, which destroys everything, has confused them with the earth, what is certain is that they have found nothing.
One thing that is no more proven than that is that, about a hundred years ago, laying the foundations of this castle, we found two stones on which was engraved the story of the flight of vultures. Although the figures were very erased, we could recognize something. Our ancestor Goths, unfortunately very ignorant, and little curious about antiquities, neglected to preserve these precious monuments of history for us, and consequently left us in obscure uncertainty as to the truth of such an important fact.
We found, not three months ago, by stirring the soil in the garden, an urn and Roman coins, but which were so old, that the corner was almost erased. I sent them to M. de La Croze. He judged that their antiquity could be from seventeen to eighteen centuries.
I hope, sir, that you will be grateful to me for the anecdote that I have just taught you, and that, in its favor, you will excuse the interest that I take in everything that can look at the history of one of the founders of Rome, of which I believe to keep the ashes. Besides, I am not accused of too much gullibility. If I sin, it is not by superstition.
He seems pretty sincere to me; what do you think?
He does sound quite sincere in this, yes, and I had a look at both Pleschinski and the original French and see that my perception might have been influenced a tiny bit by free translation - for example, he translated "je me suis vu engagé à soutenir sa vérité" as "an einer Klärung interessiert", which is a bit more open and ambiguous. If I remember my first reading correctly, I wasn't quite sure what to make of Fritz' thoughts at that point myself, but! - this isn't the end of the topic in their correspondence. Voltaire responds with a whole ode to Remusberg, says that as always he has a different opinion than the monks, but also that "Remus probably would have been as astonished to find himself in paradise as in Prussia". And then, Fritz' final words on the topic, which led me to my interpretation that he's fully aware of the questionableness of the anecdote but loved it nonetheless:
I only gave you Remus' story for what it is worth. The origins of nations are for the most part fabled; they only prove the antiquity of the foundations. Put Remus' anecdote next to the story of the holy ampulla and Merlin's magical deeds.
[Je ne vous ai donné l'histoire de Rémus que pour ce qu'elle vaut. Les origines des nations sont pour la plupart fabuleuses; elles ne prouvent que l'antiquité des établissements. Mettez l'anecdote de Rémus à côté de l'histoire de la sainte ampoule et des opérations magiques de Merlin.]
I only gave you Remus' story for what it is worth. The origins of nations are for the most part fabled; they only prove the antiquity of the foundations. Put Remus' anecdote next to the story of the holy ampulla and Merlin's magical deeds.
[Je ne vous ai donné l'histoire de Rémus que pour ce qu'elle vaut. Les origines des nations sont pour la plupart fabuleuses; elles ne prouvent que l'antiquité des établissements. Mettez l'anecdote de Rémus à côté de l'histoire de la sainte ampoule et des opérations magiques de Merlin.]
Oh, nice! I wasn't aware of that. I mean to read through Pleschinski someday, but, um, *mutters something about slow German skills*.
But you know what my interpretation is, having seen both quotes now? Fritz totally changed his mind and didn't want to admit it. He seems pretty solidly on the side of "But Roman history is completely valid!" in the first letter and "Look, I can prove it! I'm not the gullible type!" in the second, and then in the third is all, "Oh, but I didn't actually mean it, you knew that all along, right?"
Which is totally what I did all the time when I was at his stage of emotional development, when I had to know everything and admitting I was wrong was to be avoided at, if not all costs, then most costs. :P (You guys are lucky you're getting 30-something year-old me in salon and not Younger Know-It-All Super-Defensive Self.)
I think the exchange with Voltaire prompted Fritz to take a step back and evaluate Roman history and local legends the same way he evaluated, say, Christianity, instead of taking their truth for granted.
But I could be wrong! (Says 30-something-year-old self.)
But you know what my interpretation is, having seen both quotes now? Fritz totally changed his mind and didn't want to admit it. He seems pretty solidly on the side of "But Roman history is completely valid!" in the first letter and "Look, I can prove it! I'm not the gullible type!" in the second, and then in the third is all, "Oh, but I didn't actually mean it, you knew that all along, right?"
Which is totally what I did all the time when I was at his stage of emotional development, when I had to know everything and admitting I was wrong was to be avoided at, if not all costs, then most costs. :P (You guys are lucky you're getting 30-something year-old me in salon and not Younger Know-It-All Super-Defensive Self.)
I think the exchange with Voltaire prompted Fritz to take a step back and evaluate Roman history and local legends the same way he evaluated, say, Christianity, instead of taking their truth for granted.
But I could be wrong! (Says 30-something-year-old self.)
Edited 2021-08-09 22:30 (UTC)
Re: Montesquieu III: In which Fritz comments on tyrants, their successors and women in Politics
mildred_of_midgard
2021-08-09 12:03 am (UTC)(link)
Lol! I accept your headcanon.
They are simply pleased to know they are feared, for this provides them with an idea of the superiority of their person and basically equates them with the Almighty.
(Heinrich: ....)
OMG. LOL!
MT, Madame de Pompadour, Elisaveta: He had it coming! He had it coming! He only had himself to blame!
HAHAHAHA! (Also: FRIIIIITZ!)
(Heinrich: ....)
OMG. LOL!
MT, Madame de Pompadour, Elisaveta: He had it coming! He had it coming! He only had himself to blame!
HAHAHAHA! (Also: FRIIIIITZ!)
....if you'd have been there, if you'd have seen it, I betcha you would have done the same!
One day, I really must write the 7 Years Wars filk, starring Fritz and the Ladies of European Power. (Plus (P)Russian Pete. He, naturally, is the Hungarian.)
One day, I really must write the 7 Years Wars filk, starring Fritz and the Ladies of European Power. (Plus (P)Russian Pete. He, naturally, is the Hungarian.)
I'm super proud of this Voltaire/Fritz fic, not least because it's the only fic I've written in this fandom where I did most of the actual writing without major input (that is to say, Mildred was invaluable and had a bunch of great ideas too, like FW's exchange being static in nature, Fritz's email handle, and the big one being Voltaire changing his tumblr name to orangepeel, which YES HE SO WOULD -- I'm just saying that usually she would also contribute large portions of the plot and characterization, and she didn't have to this time). In large part this was because I had access to Voltaire's letters (thank you felis for introducing me to that database!) and because mildred was SO great about finding me letter references, pamphlets, etc. :D
But really I wanted to share a couple of outtakes with you that never made it into the fic :)
(1) As you noticed, Fredersdorf was Very Carefully Not Saying Anything, but he wasn't... very happy about it. When Selena and Mildred were talking about Fredersdorf getting engaged Right Around This Time, I couldn't help but write this, but it didn't make it into the fic because I felt I'd already surpassed the number of characters people who weren't in this fandom had to keep track of...
Subject: Automatic reply: Re: what's going on??
To: MarshalGessler@gmail.com
From: FredersdorfFlute@gmail.com
Henry (MarshalGessler@gmail.com) wrote:
> Mike, do you know what's going on with Fritz? Does he talk to you about it?
> Henry
Hello there! Apologies that I haven't gotten your email and in fact probably won't get it for a while. My fiance Caroline and I are on a well-deserved backpacking trip, and we'll be gone for a couple of months, maybe more depending on how it goes. We won't be reachable by email or phone during this time, so don't even try. If you've emailed me about RWFE with a question or comment or ways to improve it in the future or comments about the tagging, you're probably better off contacting one of the other mods.
Mike
(2) I... might actually put this back in (at the very end of the Tumblr-Pile-On bit) :D I wasn't sure if it was too much (along the same lines as (1) )
wrhamilton reblogged this fromacademypresident and added:
IDK why all you people are making such a big deal about this. Everyone knows that @VariationalLagrange took this idea and ran with it and wrote THE epic fic with this trope, who cares who was the first.
But really I wanted to share a couple of outtakes with you that never made it into the fic :)
(1) As you noticed, Fredersdorf was Very Carefully Not Saying Anything, but he wasn't... very happy about it. When Selena and Mildred were talking about Fredersdorf getting engaged Right Around This Time, I couldn't help but write this, but it didn't make it into the fic because I felt I'd already surpassed the number of characters people who weren't in this fandom had to keep track of...
Subject: Automatic reply: Re: what's going on??
To: MarshalGessler@gmail.com
From: FredersdorfFlute@gmail.com
Henry (MarshalGessler@gmail.com) wrote:
> Mike, do you know what's going on with Fritz? Does he talk to you about it?
> Henry
Hello there! Apologies that I haven't gotten your email and in fact probably won't get it for a while. My fiance Caroline and I are on a well-deserved backpacking trip, and we'll be gone for a couple of months, maybe more depending on how it goes. We won't be reachable by email or phone during this time, so don't even try. If you've emailed me about RWFE with a question or comment or ways to improve it in the future or comments about the tagging, you're probably better off contacting one of the other mods.
Mike
(2) I... might actually put this back in (at the very end of the Tumblr-Pile-On bit) :D I wasn't sure if it was too much (along the same lines as (1) )
wrhamilton reblogged this from
academypresident and added:IDK why all you people are making such a big deal about this. Everyone knows that @VariationalLagrange took this idea and ran with it and wrote THE epic fic with this trope, who cares who was the first.
(3) For a while I was playing with the ending not being Voltaire and Fritz getting back together. I decided against it for a couple of reasons, first that I didn't think it would work well for anyone who didn't already know the story, and second that once I made the decision to replace Madame Denis with Wilhelmine and put her replies in as well, which I think made the story much stronger, this ending no longer made sense.
But I think it will amuse you guys:
To: MadameFerney@gmail.com
From: BestOfAllPossiblePoets@gmail.com
Do you have all my emails that I sent during the time of RWFE? Please forward me whatever you have. I need them for a project I am working on, which I call the "Pamela" project.
Voltaire
https://fanlore.org/wiki/RendezvousWithFameExchange_(multifandom_exchange)
RendezvousWithFameExchange (often abbreviated RWFE) was a gift exchange based on military-themed fic. It is primarily known for the explosion between the BNF BestOfAllPossiblePoets (Voltaire on AO3) and the well-known exchange mod PhilosopherKing (also PhilosopherKing on AO3).
Collected here are many of the emails from Voltaire to MadameFerney, which tell a detailed story of the circumstances of this exchange and in particular highlight the extremely egregious and hypocrisy-laden behavior on PhilosopherKing's part, while giving justification for Voltaire's actions.
Talk: RendezvousWithFameExchange
-I don't have a dog in this fight (and I didn't participate in RWFE one way or another, which of course was years ago now), but... About those emails from BestOfAllPossiblePoets to MadameFerney cited on the RWFE page. Do we have confirmation that the emails quoted on this page are actually the original undoctored emails sent by BestOfAllPossiblePoets? Because when you read them all together they, uh, read more like a novel than like original emails sent at different times. Almost like someone had reworked them to tell exactly the story he wanted the world to hear. I'm just saying. -AndreMagnan
But I think it will amuse you guys:
To: MadameFerney@gmail.com
From: BestOfAllPossiblePoets@gmail.com
Do you have all my emails that I sent during the time of RWFE? Please forward me whatever you have. I need them for a project I am working on, which I call the "Pamela" project.
Voltaire
https://fanlore.org/wiki/RendezvousWithFameExchange_(multifandom_exchange)
RendezvousWithFameExchange (often abbreviated RWFE) was a gift exchange based on military-themed fic. It is primarily known for the explosion between the BNF BestOfAllPossiblePoets (Voltaire on AO3) and the well-known exchange mod PhilosopherKing (also PhilosopherKing on AO3).
Collected here are many of the emails from Voltaire to MadameFerney, which tell a detailed story of the circumstances of this exchange and in particular highlight the extremely egregious and hypocrisy-laden behavior on PhilosopherKing's part, while giving justification for Voltaire's actions.
Talk: RendezvousWithFameExchange
-I don't have a dog in this fight (and I didn't participate in RWFE one way or another, which of course was years ago now), but... About those emails from BestOfAllPossiblePoets to MadameFerney cited on the RWFE page. Do we have confirmation that the emails quoted on this page are actually the original undoctored emails sent by BestOfAllPossiblePoets? Because when you read them all together they, uh, read more like a novel than like original emails sent at different times. Almost like someone had reworked them to tell exactly the story he wanted the world to hear. I'm just saying. -AndreMagnan
As I told you, this fic is the Heinrich to my Lehndorff, and I'm still over the moon and starry-eyed about it to the nth degree. I love these outtakes as well, and am sniggering about the backpacking-for-several-mmonths. Wise man, Fredersdorf. But yeah, I can see why you made the call you did re: characters to keep track of for people not in the fandom.
Lol! Fredersdorf's auto-reply is THE BEST. You can almost hear the "And I'm NOT coming back until this has BLOWN OVER!"
I snuck in a reference to Mike timing his medical travel for the big blow-up, but due to the scope and nature of my fic, I wasn't really in a position to explore his feelings in more than a couple sentences, much less have him get engaged. But I was thinking of you, Selena!
I'm super proud of this Voltaire/Fritz fic, not least because it's the only fic I've written in this fandom where I did most of the actual writing without major input
You should be proud of yourself! I hardly did anything other than write code (and thereby earn a book bribe for the Whitworth book)!
because mildred was SO great about finding me letter references, pamphlets, etc. :D
OH RIGHT. I was going to mention that! Early on, in the first stages ofcahn's research, I finally turned up the Doctor Akakia pamphlet! It was really hard to find, because the volume it was in was called something completely different. But here it is!
I owe you, Cahn, this finding, because I'd been wanting to read this, and I'd looked for it before, and never found it. And only because you needed it for a fic did I really buckle down and make it happen. (Much the same way I finally turned up Peter Keith's hard-to-find eulogy for last year's RMSE because I needed it for a fic.)
Now, I still need to find time to *read it*, but hey. We have it now!
the big one being Voltaire changing his tumblr name to orangepeel, which YES HE SO WOULD
Hee! I'm glad other people found that funny too!
Frederician fandom continues to be the best!
I snuck in a reference to Mike timing his medical travel for the big blow-up, but due to the scope and nature of my fic, I wasn't really in a position to explore his feelings in more than a couple sentences, much less have him get engaged. But I was thinking of you, Selena!
I'm super proud of this Voltaire/Fritz fic, not least because it's the only fic I've written in this fandom where I did most of the actual writing without major input
You should be proud of yourself! I hardly did anything other than write code (and thereby earn a book bribe for the Whitworth book)!
because mildred was SO great about finding me letter references, pamphlets, etc. :D
OH RIGHT. I was going to mention that! Early on, in the first stages of
cahn's research, I finally turned up the Doctor Akakia pamphlet! It was really hard to find, because the volume it was in was called something completely different. But here it is!I owe you, Cahn, this finding, because I'd been wanting to read this, and I'd looked for it before, and never found it. And only because you needed it for a fic did I really buckle down and make it happen. (Much the same way I finally turned up Peter Keith's hard-to-find eulogy for last year's RMSE because I needed it for a fic.)
Now, I still need to find time to *read it*, but hey. We have it now!
the big one being Voltaire changing his tumblr name to orangepeel, which YES HE SO WOULD
Hee! I'm glad other people found that funny too!
Frederician fandom continues to be the best!
August 17, 2021 marks not only the well-known 235th anniversary of Fritz's death, but the lesser-known 2nd anniversary of salon! Happy anniversary to my favorite fans, and here's to the next year! <33
Here's to us, in a celebratory playlist to watch and listen to:
Bienvenue in Sanssouci (Voltaire's song from "Friedrich - Mythos und Tragödie")
Rheinsberg trailer
Catherine the Great: Ascension in C
Bienvenue in Sanssouci (Voltaire's song from "Friedrich - Mythos und Tragödie")
Rheinsberg trailer
Catherine the Great: Ascension in C
<33!
And in celebration I enjoyed watching two old favorites and one new one!
-ngl, there is part of my brain that thinks of Voltaire and the entire Academy as always singing and dancing just like this
-I love that bit where Voltaire ends with "Frederick the Great!" at the end and the light snaps to Fritz, who just has this hilarious expression on his face
-in the Rheinsberg trailer, that guy with the violin still absolutely slays me
-that Ascension in C is just Something Else, I really liked it
-CATHERINE
-...ok I clearly have to find out more about Catherine :P Fortunately I know just the people to ask...
And in celebration I enjoyed watching two old favorites and one new one!
-ngl, there is part of my brain that thinks of Voltaire and the entire Academy as always singing and dancing just like this
-I love that bit where Voltaire ends with "Frederick the Great!" at the end and the light snaps to Fritz, who just has this hilarious expression on his face
-in the Rheinsberg trailer, that guy with the violin still absolutely slays me
-that Ascension in C is just Something Else, I really liked it
-CATHERINE
-...ok I clearly have to find out more about Catherine :P Fortunately I know just the people to ask...
Good news: we the salon are now in possession of Wilhelmine's travel diary! The consulting gig hasn't worked out yet, but I got my first raise in 3 years last week, and ten minutes later I was on the internet buying this book, which just arrived.
The tricky part is now going to be getting it out of French and into a language we can read. Half the pages are uncut at the top, as you can see here:
, plus the volume is oversized. It remains to be seen whether the pages will fit in my scanner once I remove them from the book, or whether they'll need to be trimmed further. Fortunately, as you can see, the margins are huge.
I'll let you know once I've got the pages out of the book, onto my computer, cleaned up, run through the translation algorithms, and into the library!
(You can also see my ongoing book digitizing project off to the side in the pics. ;))
The tricky part is now going to be getting it out of French and into a language we can read. Half the pages are uncut at the top, as you can see here:
, plus the volume is oversized. It remains to be seen whether the pages will fit in my scanner once I remove them from the book, or whether they'll need to be trimmed further. Fortunately, as you can see, the margins are huge.
I'll let you know once I've got the pages out of the book, onto my computer, cleaned up, run through the translation algorithms, and into the library!
(You can also see my ongoing book digitizing project off to the side in the pics. ;))
I have a lot of backlog to catch up on with respect to my RMSE reading, which is gonna take a while (partially because of Darth RL, as selenak would say, and partially because my memory is so awful these days that I have to reread to remember what the heck I was going to say). But today I wanted to talk about Pamela! Recall that during RMSE I bribed mildred to write a script to bundle all the Pamela letters together (and machine translate) so that I could read them as a set, because I wanted to see what that would be like. (Mildred will at some point, when she's a little less busy, post this in the library.)
So honestly I would never have guessed this was not a straight series of letters if Magnan hadn't pointed it out. And also there is probably a LOT I'm not getting. (I'm guessing that I'm missing a metric ton of his references and discussion that don't strike me as particularly relevant but in fact are. Buuuuut even that being said, there are definitely things that pop out once one knows about the Pamela background.
-The beginning (Letter 2102, July 1750) is very ... how should I say this, praeludium-like. It does read more like the beginning of a novel or a play than like a random letter. The poem heading it says in its first stanza "It is to you that I am addressing This jumble of prose and verse, This story of my long journey"... and then he even lampshades it: "I am not yet at his court, and we must not anticipate anything: I want order even in my letters." I JUST BET YOU DO VOLTAIRE
-There is definitely some reworking to make through-lines to the letters, like La Mettrie and the orange peel (of course) showing up several times. (I... honestly find myself unwilling to believe he totally made up the orange peel -- it sounds like real emotion to me -- but perhaps he's just a good fiction writer :P )
-And then there's the bit about the rising and setting sun (Voltaire being the setting sun, and his student d'Arnaud being the rising sun). A few letters later, this is tied up neatly: d'Arnaud is kicked out and Voltaire, the setting sun, keeps keeping on with Fritz. ("The rising sun has gone to set.") But of course it's also foreshadowing the blowup Voltaire will have with Fritz...
-Maupertuis, lol. A quarter of the way in he's introduced: ""Maupertuis is not of very engaging ways; he takes my dimensions harshly with his quadrant: it is said there enters something of envy into his data." [Note: mildred sent this quote to me when I asked her for Maupertuis quotes early on in the game, and this particular translation is from Carlyle rather than Google, which mangles it a bit.] And he's mentioned once or twice... and then the whole Koenig thing blows up. [I didn't consciously follow exactly this structure in my fic, but I probably subsconsciously did!]
-Voltaire: "Maupertuis is TOTALLY spreading these STORIES about me saying that whole thing about Fritz's dirty laundry!!"
...huh, I just reread that bit and you know what he doesn't say?! He doesn't say that the dirty laundry story is false! He just, you know, implies and insinuates that it's false. But he doesn't come out outright and say it. Hmmmmmm.
-Koenig: lol, "This Koenig is in love with a geometry problem, like the old paladins of their ladies." That's... one way to describe the principle of least action, Voltaire. (Émilie: It is a really cool geometry problem!) Anyway, Voltaire is like "so, yeah, Maupertuis was Super Mean to Konig" and a few letters later he's like "so, Fritz wrote this pamphlet against Koenig, against me..." and he skips everything in between!... IDK, maybe I missed it, but I don't think it's until a bit later that he slips in "I unfortunately find myself an author too, and in the opposite party." Uh-huh, Voltaire. (I love the phrasing, like, he suddenly found himself having written his own pamphlet without knowing how it had happened! Maybe he wrote it in his sleep!)
-"Coquettes, kings, poets are accustomed to be flattered. Frederic unites these three crowns." LOL FOREVER
-The last letter in the set (2624: July 9, 1753) does also read like the conclusion to a story/tragedy. Voltaire rehashes the Frankfurt incident (which... I wouldn't be surprised if this was what tipped Magnan off to begin with, as it is by far the most suspicious part of the entire thing to me: if this were a real letter ...why would he have recited so carefully the entire story, given that she was, in fact, there?!) , washes his hands of Fritz, and ends: "Farewell; may I die in your arms, ignored by men and kings!"
-Because I was worried about missing letters, I asked mildred to pull a couple more than this, but Letter 2624 is such a clear ending that, well.
-I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising that, given that Voltaire was reworking everything, that so many good quotes/bits are from here. The dictionary for the use of kings! The orange peel! The description of Maupertuis! I suspect basically all the Voltaire quotes historians/biographers pull from these years are in here, because they're so quotable.
-I would love to read Magnan's writing on this, if Royal Detective can get her hands on it :D
So honestly I would never have guessed this was not a straight series of letters if Magnan hadn't pointed it out. And also there is probably a LOT I'm not getting. (I'm guessing that I'm missing a metric ton of his references and discussion that don't strike me as particularly relevant but in fact are. Buuuuut even that being said, there are definitely things that pop out once one knows about the Pamela background.
-The beginning (Letter 2102, July 1750) is very ... how should I say this, praeludium-like. It does read more like the beginning of a novel or a play than like a random letter. The poem heading it says in its first stanza "It is to you that I am addressing This jumble of prose and verse, This story of my long journey"... and then he even lampshades it: "I am not yet at his court, and we must not anticipate anything: I want order even in my letters." I JUST BET YOU DO VOLTAIRE
-There is definitely some reworking to make through-lines to the letters, like La Mettrie and the orange peel (of course) showing up several times. (I... honestly find myself unwilling to believe he totally made up the orange peel -- it sounds like real emotion to me -- but perhaps he's just a good fiction writer :P )
-And then there's the bit about the rising and setting sun (Voltaire being the setting sun, and his student d'Arnaud being the rising sun). A few letters later, this is tied up neatly: d'Arnaud is kicked out and Voltaire, the setting sun, keeps keeping on with Fritz. ("The rising sun has gone to set.") But of course it's also foreshadowing the blowup Voltaire will have with Fritz...
-Maupertuis, lol. A quarter of the way in he's introduced: ""Maupertuis is not of very engaging ways; he takes my dimensions harshly with his quadrant: it is said there enters something of envy into his data." [Note: mildred sent this quote to me when I asked her for Maupertuis quotes early on in the game, and this particular translation is from Carlyle rather than Google, which mangles it a bit.] And he's mentioned once or twice... and then the whole Koenig thing blows up. [I didn't consciously follow exactly this structure in my fic, but I probably subsconsciously did!]
-Voltaire: "Maupertuis is TOTALLY spreading these STORIES about me saying that whole thing about Fritz's dirty laundry!!"
...huh, I just reread that bit and you know what he doesn't say?! He doesn't say that the dirty laundry story is false! He just, you know, implies and insinuates that it's false. But he doesn't come out outright and say it. Hmmmmmm.
-Koenig: lol, "This Koenig is in love with a geometry problem, like the old paladins of their ladies." That's... one way to describe the principle of least action, Voltaire. (Émilie: It is a really cool geometry problem!) Anyway, Voltaire is like "so, yeah, Maupertuis was Super Mean to Konig" and a few letters later he's like "so, Fritz wrote this pamphlet against Koenig, against me..." and he skips everything in between!... IDK, maybe I missed it, but I don't think it's until a bit later that he slips in "I unfortunately find myself an author too, and in the opposite party." Uh-huh, Voltaire. (I love the phrasing, like, he suddenly found himself having written his own pamphlet without knowing how it had happened! Maybe he wrote it in his sleep!)
-"Coquettes, kings, poets are accustomed to be flattered. Frederic unites these three crowns." LOL FOREVER
-The last letter in the set (2624: July 9, 1753) does also read like the conclusion to a story/tragedy. Voltaire rehashes the Frankfurt incident (which... I wouldn't be surprised if this was what tipped Magnan off to begin with, as it is by far the most suspicious part of the entire thing to me: if this were a real letter ...why would he have recited so carefully the entire story, given that she was, in fact, there?!) , washes his hands of Fritz, and ends: "Farewell; may I die in your arms, ignored by men and kings!"
-Because I was worried about missing letters, I asked mildred to pull a couple more than this, but Letter 2624 is such a clear ending that, well.
-I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising that, given that Voltaire was reworking everything, that so many good quotes/bits are from here. The dictionary for the use of kings! The orange peel! The description of Maupertuis! I suspect basically all the Voltaire quotes historians/biographers pull from these years are in here, because they're so quotable.
-I would love to read Magnan's writing on this, if Royal Detective can get her hands on it :D
Cultural references can be a curse if one isn't totally immersed in the culture. And even then - I know about the Aeneid, but I totally would have missed Fritz comparing himself to a left Dido in his angry 1743 letter to Voltaire if Mildred hadn't recognized the quote! At least usually one gets the gist of what's meant, as when Fritz in the Marwitz letters to Heinrich rattles of a couple of similes to, I take it, then popular epics, plays and novels to taunt younger brother with.
Orange peel: I don't think he invented it, either, just like I totally believe in the laundry quote. For the later, we have people referencing the story long before Voltaire's memoirs are published, including such unlikely sources as my guy Boswell in his 1764 diary (having heard a version of it before meeting Voltaire) and MT in her letter to Joseph during the early stage of the War of the Bavarian Succession. For the former, it fits in spirit with something that Fritz did write - remember, when he haggled abouto Voltaire's travelling expenses back in the 1740 day, he actually write "no court jester was ever so expensive" (which brought me up short when coming across it, because for Fritz to use the jester simile when his father isn't dead for a year (and Gundling for nine years, while his successors are luckily still alive but no thanks to FW) is - well, as cold as the orange peel line sounds if you hear it the first time.
He doesn't say that the dirty laundry story is false! He just, you know, implies and insinuates that it's false
Voltaire: clearly still benefitting from excellent education at Louis le Grand, in this case, having read his Tacitus. (Who employed this technique, named insinuatio, a lot; for example, reading Tacitus, you're totally left with the impression he's saying Tiberius and his mother Livia ordered and/or sponsored the death of Germanicus, but if you check the lines word by word, he's never claiming that they did directly. He's just reporting rumors and, well, insinuating.
-"Coquettes, kings, poets are accustomed to be flattered. Frederic unites these three crowns." LOL FOREVER
It is an absolute gem of a line. It's also the kind of characterisation of their hero that 19th and early 20th century nationalist historians absolutely could not stomach, and for which they called Voltaire a liar as much as for his actual fabrications. Conversely, I don't think many a French admirer would have been cool with Fritz' observation that if Voltaire had had armies at his disposal, he totally would have used them to go after his literary enemies. Which, yes. They did see each other very clearly, these two. And that's why I'm shipping them.
if this were a real letter ...why would he have recited so carefully the entire story, given that she was, in fact, there?!
Wow, yes, an "As you know, Bob" letter to Madame Denis does give the game away somewhat. Though it's interesting that Voltaire when reworking and rewriting the letters didn't simply use another correspondant for this last letter (thus avoiding the inconvenience of telling Marie-Louise Denis something she's been a participant of). Presumably friends and relations not Madame Denis (who would have been totally on board with any revenge project for obvious reasons) would not have handed over the original letters? Which, btw, is good to know, since for the early stage of his Prussian adventure (when he's bringing on all the flirtation/wedding/made for each other stuff), we have a letter saying essentially the same thing to his other niece. (The one Orieux actually liked.)
The dictionary for the use of kings!
Your version for mods was another bit that made me scream in delight, btw.
And it bears repeating - titling this entire endeavour "Pamela" is hilarious by itself, due to Richardson's "young virtuous and naive middle class ingenieu"/"debauched aristocratic bastard" constellation in the original Pamela.
Orange peel: I don't think he invented it, either, just like I totally believe in the laundry quote. For the later, we have people referencing the story long before Voltaire's memoirs are published, including such unlikely sources as my guy Boswell in his 1764 diary (having heard a version of it before meeting Voltaire) and MT in her letter to Joseph during the early stage of the War of the Bavarian Succession. For the former, it fits in spirit with something that Fritz did write - remember, when he haggled abouto Voltaire's travelling expenses back in the 1740 day, he actually write "no court jester was ever so expensive" (which brought me up short when coming across it, because for Fritz to use the jester simile when his father isn't dead for a year (and Gundling for nine years, while his successors are luckily still alive but no thanks to FW) is - well, as cold as the orange peel line sounds if you hear it the first time.
He doesn't say that the dirty laundry story is false! He just, you know, implies and insinuates that it's false
Voltaire: clearly still benefitting from excellent education at Louis le Grand, in this case, having read his Tacitus. (Who employed this technique, named insinuatio, a lot; for example, reading Tacitus, you're totally left with the impression he's saying Tiberius and his mother Livia ordered and/or sponsored the death of Germanicus, but if you check the lines word by word, he's never claiming that they did directly. He's just reporting rumors and, well, insinuating.
-"Coquettes, kings, poets are accustomed to be flattered. Frederic unites these three crowns." LOL FOREVER
It is an absolute gem of a line. It's also the kind of characterisation of their hero that 19th and early 20th century nationalist historians absolutely could not stomach, and for which they called Voltaire a liar as much as for his actual fabrications. Conversely, I don't think many a French admirer would have been cool with Fritz' observation that if Voltaire had had armies at his disposal, he totally would have used them to go after his literary enemies. Which, yes. They did see each other very clearly, these two. And that's why I'm shipping them.
if this were a real letter ...why would he have recited so carefully the entire story, given that she was, in fact, there?!
Wow, yes, an "As you know, Bob" letter to Madame Denis does give the game away somewhat. Though it's interesting that Voltaire when reworking and rewriting the letters didn't simply use another correspondant for this last letter (thus avoiding the inconvenience of telling Marie-Louise Denis something she's been a participant of). Presumably friends and relations not Madame Denis (who would have been totally on board with any revenge project for obvious reasons) would not have handed over the original letters? Which, btw, is good to know, since for the early stage of his Prussian adventure (when he's bringing on all the flirtation/wedding/made for each other stuff), we have a letter saying essentially the same thing to his other niece. (The one Orieux actually liked.)
The dictionary for the use of kings!
Your version for mods was another bit that made me scream in delight, btw.
And it bears repeating - titling this entire endeavour "Pamela" is hilarious by itself, due to Richardson's "young virtuous and naive middle class ingenieu"/"debauched aristocratic bastard" constellation in the original Pamela.
Your version for mods was another bit that made me scream in delight, btw.
Same!
Same!
he actually write "no court jester was ever so expensive" (which brought me up short when coming across it, because for Fritz to use the jester simile when his father isn't dead for a year (and Gundling for nine years, while his successors are luckily still alive but no thanks to FW)
Oh, whoa! I had forgotten this, and likely when it came up before I hadn't quite internalized all the Gundling etc. context. FRITZ.
But yeah... I get the impression -- which could be totally incorrect, of course -- that at least in these letters Voltaire didn't actually make up anything from whole cloth, though he certainly did a lot of misdirection as to how much blame he should actually get for the whole thing even just given the limited amount (though much more than several months ago!) I know about what actually went down.
(Who employed this technique, named insinuatio, a lot; for example, reading Tacitus, you're totally left with the impression he's saying Tiberius and his mother Livia ordered and/or sponsored the death of Germanicus, but if you check the lines word by word, he's never claiming that they did directly. He's just reporting rumors and, well, insinuating.
Oh WOW. Thank you for the clarification! (Classics salon: also the best! ;) )
Conversely, I don't think many a French admirer would have been cool with Fritz' observation that if Voltaire had had armies at his disposal, he totally would have used them to go after his literary enemies. Which, yes.
OMG HE SO WOULD
They did see each other very clearly, these two. And that's why I'm shipping them.
*nods* Yes! It's really something, that they could say such scathing things of each other because they did see each other so clearly (and did in fact love each other so much, at least in the friendship sense). I ship them too, as you know :D
Though it's interesting that Voltaire when reworking and rewriting the letters didn't simply use another correspondant for this last letter
It's pretty clever; he passes it off as how agitated he is and wondering if it was a dream, and honestly I would have missed it if I hadn't known about Pamela:
I think it's a dream; I believe that all this happened in the time of Denis of Syracuse. I wonder if it is really true that a lady from Paris, traveling with a passport from the king her master, was dragged through the streets of Frankfurt by soldiers, taken to prison without any form of trial, without a chambermaid, without a servant, having at her door four soldiers with bayonets at the end of the rifle, and forced to suffer that a clerk of Freytag, a villain of the vilest kind, spend the night alone in her room. When Brinvilliers was arrested, the executioner was never alone with her; there is no example of such barbarous indecency. And what was your crime? for having run two hundred leagues to bring a dying uncle to the waters of Plombières, whom you regarded as your father.
(May I also just say here that OMG to Voltaire doctoring all these letters to make it look like he's like a father figure to Mme Denis. GAH Voltaire! That and I bet he had daddy kink going on :P )
(original French text: https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Correspondance_de_Voltaire/1753/Lettre_2624 )
Your version for mods was another bit that made me scream in delight, btw.
<3 :D It was so perfect I knew it had to go in!
And it bears repeating - titling this entire endeavour "Pamela" is hilarious by itself, due to Richardson's "young virtuous and naive middle class ingenieu"/"debauched aristocratic bastard" constellation in the original Pamela.
:D And this is the sort of thing I'm probably missing all over the place! :D
Oh, whoa! I had forgotten this, and likely when it came up before I hadn't quite internalized all the Gundling etc. context. FRITZ.
But yeah... I get the impression -- which could be totally incorrect, of course -- that at least in these letters Voltaire didn't actually make up anything from whole cloth, though he certainly did a lot of misdirection as to how much blame he should actually get for the whole thing even just given the limited amount (though much more than several months ago!) I know about what actually went down.
(Who employed this technique, named insinuatio, a lot; for example, reading Tacitus, you're totally left with the impression he's saying Tiberius and his mother Livia ordered and/or sponsored the death of Germanicus, but if you check the lines word by word, he's never claiming that they did directly. He's just reporting rumors and, well, insinuating.
Oh WOW. Thank you for the clarification! (Classics salon: also the best! ;) )
Conversely, I don't think many a French admirer would have been cool with Fritz' observation that if Voltaire had had armies at his disposal, he totally would have used them to go after his literary enemies. Which, yes.
OMG HE SO WOULD
They did see each other very clearly, these two. And that's why I'm shipping them.
*nods* Yes! It's really something, that they could say such scathing things of each other because they did see each other so clearly (and did in fact love each other so much, at least in the friendship sense). I ship them too, as you know :D
Though it's interesting that Voltaire when reworking and rewriting the letters didn't simply use another correspondant for this last letter
It's pretty clever; he passes it off as how agitated he is and wondering if it was a dream, and honestly I would have missed it if I hadn't known about Pamela:
I think it's a dream; I believe that all this happened in the time of Denis of Syracuse. I wonder if it is really true that a lady from Paris, traveling with a passport from the king her master, was dragged through the streets of Frankfurt by soldiers, taken to prison without any form of trial, without a chambermaid, without a servant, having at her door four soldiers with bayonets at the end of the rifle, and forced to suffer that a clerk of Freytag, a villain of the vilest kind, spend the night alone in her room. When Brinvilliers was arrested, the executioner was never alone with her; there is no example of such barbarous indecency. And what was your crime? for having run two hundred leagues to bring a dying uncle to the waters of Plombières, whom you regarded as your father.
(May I also just say here that OMG to Voltaire doctoring all these letters to make it look like he's like a father figure to Mme Denis. GAH Voltaire! That and I bet he had daddy kink going on :P )
(original French text: https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Correspondance_de_Voltaire/1753/Lettre_2624 )
Your version for mods was another bit that made me scream in delight, btw.
<3 :D It was so perfect I knew it had to go in!
And it bears repeating - titling this entire endeavour "Pamela" is hilarious by itself, due to Richardson's "young virtuous and naive middle class ingenieu"/"debauched aristocratic bastard" constellation in the original Pamela.
:D And this is the sort of thing I'm probably missing all over the place! :D
Look at you doing scholarly research! This is amazing! :DDD
(Mildred will at some point, when she's a little less busy, post this in the library.)
Oh right! Thank you for the reminder. I will indeed. This weekend I've decided to devote entirely to book-digitizing in hopes of getting it over with sooner rather than later. Poor Peter Keith's ghost is waiting patiently, and now Wilhelmine's travel diary will have to wait a couple weeks before I can start (it mostly seems to be a list of sights seen, so there may not be much exciting material), but I've added Pamela to my post-digitization todo list as well.
-I would love to read Magnan's writing on this, if Royal Detective can get her hands on it :D
Royal Detective looked into this when we first learned about it and came to the conclusion that it would be doable but not cheap. It's totally on my list for when I finish German and move on to French, though. Do you want it now, or are you willing to wait until next year?
ETA:
...huh, I just reread that bit and you know what he doesn't say?! He doesn't say that the dirty laundry story is false! He just, you know, implies and insinuates that it's false. But he doesn't come out outright and say it. Hmmmmmm.
Yes, one of the Fritz or Voltaire biographers I've read, I forget which, says that Voltaire's objection wasn't that the story was false, but that it was passed onto Fritz.
(Mildred will at some point, when she's a little less busy, post this in the library.)
Oh right! Thank you for the reminder. I will indeed. This weekend I've decided to devote entirely to book-digitizing in hopes of getting it over with sooner rather than later. Poor Peter Keith's ghost is waiting patiently, and now Wilhelmine's travel diary will have to wait a couple weeks before I can start (it mostly seems to be a list of sights seen, so there may not be much exciting material), but I've added Pamela to my post-digitization todo list as well.
-I would love to read Magnan's writing on this, if Royal Detective can get her hands on it :D
Royal Detective looked into this when we first learned about it and came to the conclusion that it would be doable but not cheap. It's totally on my list for when I finish German and move on to French, though. Do you want it now, or are you willing to wait until next year?
ETA:
...huh, I just reread that bit and you know what he doesn't say?! He doesn't say that the dirty laundry story is false! He just, you know, implies and insinuates that it's false. But he doesn't come out outright and say it. Hmmmmmm.
Yes, one of the Fritz or Voltaire biographers I've read, I forget which, says that Voltaire's objection wasn't that the story was false, but that it was passed onto Fritz.
Edited 2021-08-22 14:05 (UTC)
Yeah, I also haven't forgotten I owe you some FamilySearch lookups, but ironically this will have to wait until I am free of... family obligations :) (This week it's my father-in-law visiting!)
Nah, I'll wait until next year for Magnan!
Yes, one of the Fritz or Voltaire biographers I've read, I forget which, says that Voltaire's objection wasn't that the story was false, but that it was passed onto Fritz.
Yeah... although he certainly wants you to think, in that letter, that the story's false. Listen to this:
Maupertuis discreetly spread the rumor that I found the king's works very bad; he accuses me of conspiring against a dangerous power, which is self-love; he silently says that the king having sent me his verses to correct, I replied: "Will he not tire of sending me his dirty laundry to be laundered?" He holds this strange speech in the ears of ten or twelve people...
(https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Correspondance_de_Voltaire/1752/Lettre_2398)
The first draft of my comment above actually said that Voltaire said Maupertuis was slandering him, and then I thought, let me read that one more time before I press "post comment" on that, and then I was like... hmm...
Nah, I'll wait until next year for Magnan!
Yes, one of the Fritz or Voltaire biographers I've read, I forget which, says that Voltaire's objection wasn't that the story was false, but that it was passed onto Fritz.
Yeah... although he certainly wants you to think, in that letter, that the story's false. Listen to this:
Maupertuis discreetly spread the rumor that I found the king's works very bad; he accuses me of conspiring against a dangerous power, which is self-love; he silently says that the king having sent me his verses to correct, I replied: "Will he not tire of sending me his dirty laundry to be laundered?" He holds this strange speech in the ears of ten or twelve people...
(https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Correspondance_de_Voltaire/1752/Lettre_2398)
The first draft of my comment above actually said that Voltaire said Maupertuis was slandering him, and then I thought, let me read that one more time before I press "post comment" on that, and then I was like... hmm...
The first draft of my comment above actually said that Voltaire said Maupertuis was slandering him, and then I thought, let me read that one more time before I press "post comment" on that, and then I was like... hmm...
:) Yep, it's all a matter of phrasing. (Hey, Voltaire had experience with law suits by then!) At no point does he deny having said it. Incidentally, since La Mettrie was the source Voltaire names for the orange peel quote, I looked up again what Nicolai claims D'Argens told him re: his fellow knights of the Sanssouci Table Round (reminder: in summation, that none of them loved Fritz and were worthy the way D'Argens was) , and it is this:
De La Mettrie wasn't really held in high regard by the King. Instead, (Fritz) regarded him as a clown who could amuse him entre deux vins now and then. De La Mettrie behaved very undignified towards the King; not only did he blab everywhere in Berlin about everything that was talked about at the King's table, he also narrated everything twistedly, with malicious addenda.
Though Nicolai doesn't say so directly, I do suspect that refers to the orange peel quote, and if so, note the La Mettrie put down doesn't claim La Mettrie invented stories, just that he "narrated everything twistedly". And so you don't have to look it up at Rheinsberg, here's D'Argens-via-Nicolai on Maupertuis and Voltaire:
Maupertuis, whom the King esteemed for his scientific abilities and pleasant manners, was full of quirks and pretensions, and envious of everyone for whom the King had as much as a kind word, for he thought he'd lose whatever the other gained. He was never satisfied, and consequently caused great irritation to the King whom he annoyed with his quirks and who would have liked to see him content.
Voltaire, although the greatest writer of them all by far, was the most ungrateful towards the King. He was jealous of everyone whom the King preferred. His utmost bitterness resulted from believing the King didn't distinguish him enough from the other scholarly favourites. Full of pride and petulance, he often when everyone was in great spirits lashed out against the others in the King's company, which displeased the King himself not a few times; two times, when Voltaire had been too insolent, the King had to speak as a King, and Voltaire, as proud as he'd been, was now immediately humbled. But he avenged himself through impudent and partially false stories he spread behind the King's back.
(Footnote from Nicolai here: D'Argens once told me with the vivaciousness of a Provence man about Voltaire: Le Bastard a de l'esprit come trente, mais il est malicious come un vieux singe.)
As I said in my original Nicolai write up - partially false? I note you never enlighten us which parts you and D'Argens think weren't false, Nicolai.
:) Yep, it's all a matter of phrasing. (Hey, Voltaire had experience with law suits by then!) At no point does he deny having said it. Incidentally, since La Mettrie was the source Voltaire names for the orange peel quote, I looked up again what Nicolai claims D'Argens told him re: his fellow knights of the Sanssouci Table Round (reminder: in summation, that none of them loved Fritz and were worthy the way D'Argens was) , and it is this:
De La Mettrie wasn't really held in high regard by the King. Instead, (Fritz) regarded him as a clown who could amuse him entre deux vins now and then. De La Mettrie behaved very undignified towards the King; not only did he blab everywhere in Berlin about everything that was talked about at the King's table, he also narrated everything twistedly, with malicious addenda.
Though Nicolai doesn't say so directly, I do suspect that refers to the orange peel quote, and if so, note the La Mettrie put down doesn't claim La Mettrie invented stories, just that he "narrated everything twistedly". And so you don't have to look it up at Rheinsberg, here's D'Argens-via-Nicolai on Maupertuis and Voltaire:
Maupertuis, whom the King esteemed for his scientific abilities and pleasant manners, was full of quirks and pretensions, and envious of everyone for whom the King had as much as a kind word, for he thought he'd lose whatever the other gained. He was never satisfied, and consequently caused great irritation to the King whom he annoyed with his quirks and who would have liked to see him content.
Voltaire, although the greatest writer of them all by far, was the most ungrateful towards the King. He was jealous of everyone whom the King preferred. His utmost bitterness resulted from believing the King didn't distinguish him enough from the other scholarly favourites. Full of pride and petulance, he often when everyone was in great spirits lashed out against the others in the King's company, which displeased the King himself not a few times; two times, when Voltaire had been too insolent, the King had to speak as a King, and Voltaire, as proud as he'd been, was now immediately humbled. But he avenged himself through impudent and partially false stories he spread behind the King's back.
(Footnote from Nicolai here: D'Argens once told me with the vivaciousness of a Provence man about Voltaire: Le Bastard a de l'esprit come trente, mais il est malicious come un vieux singe.)
As I said in my original Nicolai write up - partially false? I note you never enlighten us which parts you and D'Argens think weren't false, Nicolai.
Yeah, I also haven't forgotten I owe you some FamilySearch lookups, but ironically this will have to wait
Yes, please wait! I have at least 2 more weeks of book-digitizing to go! Then you can do all the family searching for me in the world.
Nah, I'll wait until next year for Magnan!
Sounds good! It's definitely high on my list, assuming I manage to get to a good stopping point with German by the time I'm still in this fandom and motivated to study French.
Yes, please wait! I have at least 2 more weeks of book-digitizing to go! Then you can do all the family searching for me in the world.
Nah, I'll wait until next year for Magnan!
Sounds good! It's definitely high on my list, assuming I manage to get to a good stopping point with German by the time I'm still in this fandom and motivated to study French.
Der Spiegel with a long and good article about Lady Mary Wortley Montagu, which is mainly focused on her as a pioneer in the fight against smallpox (the article is from this year, obvious parallels are obvious), but also contains a mention of her falling in love with Algarotti; his bisexuality and relationship with Fritz both are mentioned without euphemisms. Progress indeed!
Thank you! I read it yesterday, and it was a good article as well as good German practice.
I still need to read the bestiality article for practice, but that might have to wait.
Progress indeed!
Indeed! That was good to see.
I still need to read the bestiality article for practice, but that might have to wait.
Progress indeed!
Indeed! That was good to see.
So, it's that time of the year again, and despite our general business and still glowing from RMSE, I would like to hash out nominations with fellow salon members, and not just in 18th century matters. For you see, when reading up on Charles V. et all these last months, the wish to write about some of these awesome ladies that keep showing up - the three Margarets (of York, of Austria, of Parma), and Barbara Blomberg (she who defended her wine, men and song widowhood life style succcesfully against the Duke of Alba and Philip of Spain) grew and grew and grew. And cahn, you said you'd love to read about Barbara squaring off against Alba. I even pondered a good moniker for the fandom that would allow these ladies to be entered and wouldn't be too general for Yuletide, and thought: 16th Century Habsburg RPF should do it. What do you think?
If four characters per nominator are still allowed, I would nominate two of the Margarets - Austria and Parma -, Barbara Blomberg, and Charles V. If one of you aided me by nominating Philip of Spain, Juan d'Austria, the Duke of Alba and Juana the maybe or maybe not mad but definitely doomed, that would be lovely, and allow requests for all types of messed up family encounters for me. I realize this is is entirely selfish of me, but would in turn offer to nominate characters in a fandom of your choice.
Now, re: Fredericians - here I plots I still want to tackle at some point:
- Bodyswitch tale (either Fritz and Madame de Pompadour, with Voltaire and Émilie co-starring, or Fritz and Heinrich would be fun, though I'm currently more drawn to the Fritz/Pompadour switch on account of how this would give both parties a very good reason to switch back in the end, and would allow me to write an Émilie in the position to blackmail Fritz-as-Pompadour into making Louis XV change the rules to allow female Academy members before she helps him to get his body back, and tense three way sarcasm between Fritz, Voltaire and Émilie.
- Alternate first encounter between Fritz and Fredersdorf at Frankfurt for Christmas
- Voltaire to the rescue AU
- Rokoko babysitting fic
This would mean nominating Fritz, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Pompadour, and one of you also nominating Émilie and Heinrich. Other nominations for plots you want to write/read more than very welcome! One which I would use as a prompt for someone else to write and for me to request, for example, should Wilhelmine and MT be among the nominated characters would be the Wilhelmine & MT lunch of legend. Just the lunch. Or, if someone nominates FW, I'd ask for the FW/G2 Duel that happens AU. Or the Murder at the Wusterhausen Express AU. :)
Thoughts?
cahn, you said you'd love to read about Barbara squaring off against Alba. I even pondered a good moniker for the fandom that would allow these ladies to be entered and wouldn't be too general for Yuletide, and thought: 16th Century Habsburg RPF should do it. What do you think? If four characters per nominator are still allowed, I would nominate two of the Margarets - Austria and Parma -, Barbara Blomberg, and Charles V. If one of you aided me by nominating Philip of Spain, Juan d'Austria, the Duke of Alba and Juana the maybe or maybe not mad but definitely doomed, that would be lovely, and allow requests for all types of messed up family encounters for me. I realize this is is entirely selfish of me, but would in turn offer to nominate characters in a fandom of your choice.
Now, re: Fredericians - here I plots I still want to tackle at some point:
- Bodyswitch tale (either Fritz and Madame de Pompadour, with Voltaire and Émilie co-starring, or Fritz and Heinrich would be fun, though I'm currently more drawn to the Fritz/Pompadour switch on account of how this would give both parties a very good reason to switch back in the end, and would allow me to write an Émilie in the position to blackmail Fritz-as-Pompadour into making Louis XV change the rules to allow female Academy members before she helps him to get his body back, and tense three way sarcasm between Fritz, Voltaire and Émilie.
- Alternate first encounter between Fritz and Fredersdorf at Frankfurt for Christmas
- Voltaire to the rescue AU
- Rokoko babysitting fic
This would mean nominating Fritz, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Pompadour, and one of you also nominating Émilie and Heinrich. Other nominations for plots you want to write/read more than very welcome! One which I would use as a prompt for someone else to write and for me to request, for example, should Wilhelmine and MT be among the nominated characters would be the Wilhelmine & MT lunch of legend. Just the lunch. Or, if someone nominates FW, I'd ask for the FW/G2 Duel that happens AU. Or the Murder at the Wusterhausen Express AU. :)
Thoughts?
I'm undecided if I'm signing up this year, but I'll definitely participate in nominations. I'll trade you your 16th century Habsburgs for my 3rd century Roman emperors, Diocletian and Maximian.
Plots I will have to think more about, except:
- Alternate first encounter between Fritz and Fredersdorf at Frankfurt for Christmas
- Voltaire to the rescue AU
- Rokoko babysitting fic
I totally want these!
and
Or, if someone nominates FW, I'd ask for the FW/G2 Duel that happens AU. Or the Murder at the Wusterhausen Express AU. :)
Or FW kidnapping Fredersdorf into the Potsdam Giants and Fritz & Fredersdorf having to plot to get him back! :D
Plots I will have to think more about, except:
- Alternate first encounter between Fritz and Fredersdorf at Frankfurt for Christmas
- Voltaire to the rescue AU
- Rokoko babysitting fic
I totally want these!
and
Or, if someone nominates FW, I'd ask for the FW/G2 Duel that happens AU. Or the Murder at the Wusterhausen Express AU. :)
Or FW kidnapping Fredersdorf into the Potsdam Giants and Fritz & Fredersdorf having to plot to get him back! :D
Which reminds me, Kloosterhuis did write that expensive tome on the Tall Guys, which is available at the Stabi. My impression is that most of it is excruciating archival detail, but some of it may be of interest to fanfic writers.
Right! Had forgotten about this one, won't have a chance to read it until October, though, due to Darth Real Life. However, I'll definitely nominate your 3rd Century Roman Emperors in exchange for my 16th century Habsburgs! As for Frederician nominations, which characters would you nominate then?
Definitely Katte and Fredersdorf. If I sign up, I'll probably request just those two, with a note in my sign-up letter that it's either/or. I'm happy to receive Rococo babysitting as my assignment as long as Fredersdorf gets more than a cameo, first meeting in Frankfurt <3, Wusterhausen Express, FW steals Fredersdorf, FW steals Fredersdorf and therefore Wusterhausen Express...the possibilities are endless. :D
(Broccoli test fic... :P)
As for my other two nominations, I'm happy to supply whatever the group needs that isn't already nominated by someone else. Voltaire? Catherine? Heinrich? FW? Let me know what you guys decide!
(Broccoli test fic... :P)
As for my other two nominations, I'm happy to supply whatever the group needs that isn't already nominated by someone else. Voltaire? Catherine? Heinrich? FW? Let me know what you guys decide!
Here's what we have so far:
Me: Fritz, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Pompadour.
cahn: Émilie, Heinrich, FW, SD.
You: Katte, and since you have three slots three, how about Catherine forcahn, just in case you get inspired, Lehndorff for me (to possibly request), and uncle G2 in case anyone feels up to the AU duel?
Me: Fritz, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Pompadour.
cahn: Émilie, Heinrich, FW, SD. You: Katte, and since you have three slots three, how about Catherine for
cahn, just in case you get inspired, Lehndorff for me (to possibly request), and uncle G2 in case anyone feels up to the AU duel? Great, I'll nominate Lehndorff for you, and Catherine for cahn. Do we need G2? He's only useful as a separate nomination from FW if someone wants to request him and not FW, or someone wants to mandate G2 with FW. For the duel plot, FW suffices, because the author can always add G2 to a story that matched on FW.
I'm thinking Suhm, in case someone wants to write me a tale of two sugar daddies, or one sugar daddy, or pretty much anything at all with my favorite envoy. ;)
So that would be
You: Fritz, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Pompadour.
cahn: Émilie, Heinrich, FW, SD.
Me: Katte, Lehndorff, Catherine, Suhm.
How does that sound?
cahn. Do we need G2? He's only useful as a separate nomination from FW if someone wants to request him and not FW, or someone wants to mandate G2 with FW. For the duel plot, FW suffices, because the author can always add G2 to a story that matched on FW.I'm thinking Suhm, in case someone wants to write me a tale of two sugar daddies, or one sugar daddy, or pretty much anything at all with my favorite envoy. ;)
So that would be
You: Fritz, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Pompadour.
cahn: Émilie, Heinrich, FW, SD.Me: Katte, Lehndorff, Catherine, Suhm.
How does that sound?
This sounds fine to me as well!
Mildred, on a tangential note, I'm also going to nominate Tillerman with Brother Thomas and probably either Jeff or Horace Greene or both. (I got this great story! Now I want another one!) If you have anyone you really want me to nominate, I should have at least one slot free.
Mildred, on a tangential note, I'm also going to nominate Tillerman with Brother Thomas and probably either Jeff or Horace Greene or both. (I got this great story! Now I want another one!) If you have anyone you really want me to nominate, I should have at least one slot free.
I'm not planning on requesting or offering this fandom, but if you've got a free slot, feel free to nominate my fave Bullet.
I've started shipping Thomas and Horace as well, thanks to the two recent fics! (Also, the Tillerman cycle will always be how you and I met, and thus salon is forever indebted. ;))
I've started shipping Thomas and Horace as well, thanks to the two recent fics! (Also, the Tillerman cycle will always be how you and I met, and thus salon is forever indebted. ;))
Yuuuuuuletide! :D
I am of course definitely signing up :D (Though I am hoping to leave the writing to you guys who know the history! ...yes, this is what I've said for the last two Yuletides, but I'm gonna try again this time :D )
-dang, I might just ask for "any" for 18th-C Hapsburg. There is so much cool stuff there and I want it all! Anything about the Margarets! Barbara vs. Alba and Philip! (lol forever) Juana! :( And I'm also still very interested in Charles V viewing the alternate history where he killed Martin Luther and realizing that he was doomed either way :P :D
As for our home fandom,
-I am still gunning hard for Voltaire to the rescue AU, with bonus Heinrich regent! I will basically keep requesting this until the end of time or until you write it :D (IDK if that makes you more or less likely to write it, lol! On one hand you know I will be enthusiastic; on the other you also know I won't lose interest in it if you decide to write something else... :) )
-I would also be interested in the bodyswitch! Omg Fritz/Voltaire/Emilie would be AMAZING. (I didn't mean those slashes as shipping, I'm really in this for the sarcasm and am all about the gen anyway, but on the other hand... well... really, if the obstacle to the ship was that Voltaire was het...!)
-I don't really want Fritz/Fredersdorf or Rokoko babysitting fic as an assignment gift, but as a treat if mildred isn't signing up, I will volunteer to receive ;)
-I haven't thought yet about what else I might want...
If Mildred nominates the Hapsburgs, I'm happy to nominate Émilie and Heinrich! And two more as well. Wilhelmine and MT would be lovely, but I'm not wedded to it (having gotten a brilliant MT fic and an amazing Wilhelmine AU already :D :D ). I *am* a bit interested in Catherine the Great and Peter III now (this is your fault for Ascension in C :) ), but I think you mentioned before there's a Peter fandom, and I'm more interested in Catherine being ruthless :) ETA: Or FW, I'm happy to nominate him as one of my four as well!
My current thought is that I will probably request Fritz, Voltaire, Heinrich, maybe Emilie, and I will put in my signup that it's OR-ish and that I'm totally up for other characters -- so you could definitely write the Pompadour bodyswitch, does that make sense? I don't want to request Pompadour because I feel like that's too much of a box :)
...Speaking of Margaret of Parma, I, um. May have had an ulterior motive for asking about Margaret of Parma. (I apologize for bending all historical facts to operatic "history"!)
I am of course definitely signing up :D (Though I am hoping to leave the writing to you guys who know the history! ...yes, this is what I've said for the last two Yuletides, but I'm gonna try again this time :D )
-dang, I might just ask for "any" for 18th-C Hapsburg. There is so much cool stuff there and I want it all! Anything about the Margarets! Barbara vs. Alba and Philip! (lol forever) Juana! :( And I'm also still very interested in Charles V viewing the alternate history where he killed Martin Luther and realizing that he was doomed either way :P :D
As for our home fandom,
-I am still gunning hard for Voltaire to the rescue AU, with bonus Heinrich regent! I will basically keep requesting this until the end of time or until you write it :D (IDK if that makes you more or less likely to write it, lol! On one hand you know I will be enthusiastic; on the other you also know I won't lose interest in it if you decide to write something else... :) )
-I would also be interested in the bodyswitch! Omg Fritz/Voltaire/Emilie would be AMAZING. (I didn't mean those slashes as shipping, I'm really in this for the sarcasm and am all about the gen anyway, but on the other hand... well... really, if the obstacle to the ship was that Voltaire was het...!)
-I don't really want Fritz/Fredersdorf or Rokoko babysitting fic as an assignment gift, but as a treat if mildred isn't signing up, I will volunteer to receive ;)
-I haven't thought yet about what else I might want...
If Mildred nominates the Hapsburgs, I'm happy to nominate Émilie and Heinrich! And two more as well. Wilhelmine and MT would be lovely, but I'm not wedded to it (having gotten a brilliant MT fic and an amazing Wilhelmine AU already :D :D ). I *am* a bit interested in Catherine the Great and Peter III now (this is your fault for Ascension in C :) ), but I think you mentioned before there's a Peter fandom, and I'm more interested in Catherine being ruthless :) ETA: Or FW, I'm happy to nominate him as one of my four as well!
My current thought is that I will probably request Fritz, Voltaire, Heinrich, maybe Emilie, and I will put in my signup that it's OR-ish and that I'm totally up for other characters -- so you could definitely write the Pompadour bodyswitch, does that make sense? I don't want to request Pompadour because I feel like that's too much of a box :)
...Speaking of Margaret of Parma, I, um. May have had an ulterior motive for asking about Margaret of Parma. (I apologize for bending all historical facts to operatic "history"!)
Edited 2021-08-23 05:15 (UTC)
*rubs hands*
Excellent. Then, if you nominate Émilie and Heinrich, you could add FW and SD. This with an eye to two Mildred-favored plots - Murder on the Wusterhausen Express and FW Steals Fredersdorf -; but I admit I also have an idea I may or may not write as a treat, depending on what my time schedule in late autumn is, for which they'd come in handy.
re: Catherine, yes, the historical Peter fandom is, well, into Peter. There also seems now to be a new fandom around the new series The Great, where people are into both Catherine and Peter, but that series' versions of Catherine and Peter don't seem to resemble their historical analogues at all, given that I've osmosed Peter is already Czar when Catherine marries him, and his aunt Elizabeth is collecting butterflies (?) as opposed to being the all powerful ruler, and Peter is the entirely Russia son (!) of Peter the Great as opposed to being a German grandkid. (I don't mean this as a put down, since the trailer I've seen already cheerfully confesses they're "only rarely inspired by a real story" and going full blown AU. Fair! Only when fiction pretends to be historically accurate and then provides howlers do I complain.) Which does mean they're basically entirely different people.
My own problem is that I've written my historical Catherine story already and can't, right now, think of another one I'd really want to write the way I wanted to write that one, so even if Catherine got nominated, I would not offer to write her as a character. Though Mildred might, since she's reading up on her!
My current thought is that I will probably request Fritz, Voltaire, Heinrich, maybe Emilie, and I will put in my signup that it's OR-ish and that I'm totally up for other characters -- so you could definitely write the Pompadour bodyswitch, does that make sense?
Absolutely, it does! Now I'm off to read your tale!
Excellent. Then, if you nominate Émilie and Heinrich, you could add FW and SD. This with an eye to two Mildred-favored plots - Murder on the Wusterhausen Express and FW Steals Fredersdorf -; but I admit I also have an idea I may or may not write as a treat, depending on what my time schedule in late autumn is, for which they'd come in handy.
re: Catherine, yes, the historical Peter fandom is, well, into Peter. There also seems now to be a new fandom around the new series The Great, where people are into both Catherine and Peter, but that series' versions of Catherine and Peter don't seem to resemble their historical analogues at all, given that I've osmosed Peter is already Czar when Catherine marries him, and his aunt Elizabeth is collecting butterflies (?) as opposed to being the all powerful ruler, and Peter is the entirely Russia son (!) of Peter the Great as opposed to being a German grandkid. (I don't mean this as a put down, since the trailer I've seen already cheerfully confesses they're "only rarely inspired by a real story" and going full blown AU. Fair! Only when fiction pretends to be historically accurate and then provides howlers do I complain.) Which does mean they're basically entirely different people.
My own problem is that I've written my historical Catherine story already and can't, right now, think of another one I'd really want to write the way I wanted to write that one, so even if Catherine got nominated, I would not offer to write her as a character. Though Mildred might, since she's reading up on her!
My current thought is that I will probably request Fritz, Voltaire, Heinrich, maybe Emilie, and I will put in my signup that it's OR-ish and that I'm totally up for other characters -- so you could definitely write the Pompadour bodyswitch, does that make sense?
Absolutely, it does! Now I'm off to read your tale!
Though Mildred might, since she's reading up on her!
I was about to demur, but then I remembered that last year, I said I couldn't write ruthless Heinrich/Sophie AU until after it was no longer 20 years since the last time I read a Catherine bio.
Well...
We'll see! (My brain is now poking me about Heinrich/Sophie AU forcahn and FW + Fredersdorf for selenak. This is why my German is still so slow and painful, guys. Every 6 months there's another exchange I get roped into instead of studying!)
I was about to demur, but then I remembered that last year, I said I couldn't write ruthless Heinrich/Sophie AU until after it was no longer 20 years since the last time I read a Catherine bio.
Well...
We'll see! (My brain is now poking me about Heinrich/Sophie AU for
cahn and FW + Fredersdorf for selenak. This is why my German is still so slow and painful, guys. Every 6 months there's another exchange I get roped into instead of studying!)I had completely forgotten about Heinrich/Sophie plotting-against-each-other AU and omg the thought of it still FILLS ME WITH UTTER GLEE.
This is why my German is still so slow and painful, guys. Every 6 months there's another exchange I get roped into instead of studying!)
I regret nothing!
This is why my German is still so slow and painful, guys. Every 6 months there's another exchange I get roped into instead of studying!)
I regret nothing!
yes, this is what I've said for the last two Yuletides, but I'm gonna try again this time :D )
Haha, it was my fault both times! You had to save me from myself. :D
May have had an ulterior motive for asking about Margaret of Parma.
Haven't read, but nice! *applauds*
Haha, it was my fault both times! You had to save me from myself. :D
May have had an ulterior motive for asking about Margaret of Parma.
Haven't read, but nice! *applauds*
Reminder: mildred is hosting this here
So I've read this now? (I read only part of it for RMSE, not realizing that that Decree of the Inquisition of Rome and Judgment of the professors of the college of Sapienza were also parts of the same pamphlet, or even if they're not, they're all making fun of Maupertuis.)
The very first part, where Voltaire is all "well obviously anyone who wrote all this stuff must be very young" is hilarious partially because then he refers to Maupertuis in the entire remainder of this pamphlet as a "young student" and similar.
The first part of Doctor Akakia I don't really get -- is this supposed to be making fun of Maupertuis's physics in a way that's too subtle for me to get, or did Maupertuis also talk about doctors and biology?
I'm actually kind of confused by this part generally speaking, because first he says "It is proper to inform [Maupertuis], that experience is the only mistress of man in discovering the salubrious virtues of herbs and plants" which okay, could maybe be a reference to experimental physics being a thing (e.g., that whole thing Leibnitz was trying to do with trying to explain the world from first principles) but then he says "Our young Logician pretends that physicians should henceforth be only empirics, and advises them to banish all theory" which seems to be a totally different/opposite point?!
I would fain know whether the young spark... has ever done such service to mankind, as he who unexpectedly rescued Marshal Saxe from the jaws of death after the battle of Fontenoy.
...okay, someone explain this to me, I know this is a dig :P
Decree of the Inquisition of Rome: this I understood a little more of!
We declare that the laws on the collision of bodies, perfectly hard, are puerile and imaginary, since there is no such thing that we know of as a body perfectly hard, except it be thick skulls, on which we have in vain endeavored to operate.
In physics, a common way to simplify a collision problem is to assert that it's "perfectly elastic" (no energy is absorbed by the colliders, which corresponds I think to Voltaire saying "perfectly hard") which means that kinetic energy (and momentum) is preserved. (So this goes back to the whole force vive debate about kinetic energy vs. momentum.)
The assertion, that the product of space by velocity is always a minimum, appears to us false; for the product is sometimes a maximum, as Leibnitz thought, and as it has been since demonstrated. It seems that the young author borrowed only half of Leibnitz's idea, and herein we discharge him from the imputation of having taken the entire notion from Leibnitz.
I'm not sure where Leibniz said this (in the disputed letter, maybe?) and it's not my understanding of how the principle of least action developed historically, but it's certainly true that the calculation of variations is used in the context of both minima and maxima... though that was some time later. So I think Voltaire does have something of a point here, but possibly by accident? I'm not sure though because I am not sure what Leibnitz said.
We are afraid lest the author should inspire his fellow students with some slight inclination of searching after the philosopher's stone; for he says, in whatever light we consider it, we cannot prove the impossibility of it.
...I am on Maupertuis's side here, sorry Voltaire :P Maupertuis was making a point of logic, not a point of sensibleness.
let him not upon every occasion, whether to the purpose or not, mention the polar circle.
Heh, I can just see Voltaire getting really annoyed with Maupertuis' conversation... ("But why isn't he talking more about ME?")
If any of his comrades should propose in a friendly manner a different opinion from his, if he should have the confidence to tell him that he builds upon the authority of Leibnitz, and some other philosophers, if he should particularly show him a letter of Leibnitz, and formally contradict our young student, let him not imagine, without any reflexion, nor publish to all the world, that his comrade has forged a letter of Leibniz to rob him of the glory of being an original.
HA. (And then it goes on like that for a while.)
So I've read this now? (I read only part of it for RMSE, not realizing that that Decree of the Inquisition of Rome and Judgment of the professors of the college of Sapienza were also parts of the same pamphlet, or even if they're not, they're all making fun of Maupertuis.)
The very first part, where Voltaire is all "well obviously anyone who wrote all this stuff must be very young" is hilarious partially because then he refers to Maupertuis in the entire remainder of this pamphlet as a "young student" and similar.
The first part of Doctor Akakia I don't really get -- is this supposed to be making fun of Maupertuis's physics in a way that's too subtle for me to get, or did Maupertuis also talk about doctors and biology?
I'm actually kind of confused by this part generally speaking, because first he says "It is proper to inform [Maupertuis], that experience is the only mistress of man in discovering the salubrious virtues of herbs and plants" which okay, could maybe be a reference to experimental physics being a thing (e.g., that whole thing Leibnitz was trying to do with trying to explain the world from first principles) but then he says "Our young Logician pretends that physicians should henceforth be only empirics, and advises them to banish all theory" which seems to be a totally different/opposite point?!
I would fain know whether the young spark... has ever done such service to mankind, as he who unexpectedly rescued Marshal Saxe from the jaws of death after the battle of Fontenoy.
...okay, someone explain this to me, I know this is a dig :P
Decree of the Inquisition of Rome: this I understood a little more of!
We declare that the laws on the collision of bodies, perfectly hard, are puerile and imaginary, since there is no such thing that we know of as a body perfectly hard, except it be thick skulls, on which we have in vain endeavored to operate.
In physics, a common way to simplify a collision problem is to assert that it's "perfectly elastic" (no energy is absorbed by the colliders, which corresponds I think to Voltaire saying "perfectly hard") which means that kinetic energy (and momentum) is preserved. (So this goes back to the whole force vive debate about kinetic energy vs. momentum.)
The assertion, that the product of space by velocity is always a minimum, appears to us false; for the product is sometimes a maximum, as Leibnitz thought, and as it has been since demonstrated. It seems that the young author borrowed only half of Leibnitz's idea, and herein we discharge him from the imputation of having taken the entire notion from Leibnitz.
I'm not sure where Leibniz said this (in the disputed letter, maybe?) and it's not my understanding of how the principle of least action developed historically, but it's certainly true that the calculation of variations is used in the context of both minima and maxima... though that was some time later. So I think Voltaire does have something of a point here, but possibly by accident? I'm not sure though because I am not sure what Leibnitz said.
We are afraid lest the author should inspire his fellow students with some slight inclination of searching after the philosopher's stone; for he says, in whatever light we consider it, we cannot prove the impossibility of it.
...I am on Maupertuis's side here, sorry Voltaire :P Maupertuis was making a point of logic, not a point of sensibleness.
let him not upon every occasion, whether to the purpose or not, mention the polar circle.
Heh, I can just see Voltaire getting really annoyed with Maupertuis' conversation... ("But why isn't he talking more about ME?")
If any of his comrades should propose in a friendly manner a different opinion from his, if he should have the confidence to tell him that he builds upon the authority of Leibnitz, and some other philosophers, if he should particularly show him a letter of Leibnitz, and formally contradict our young student, let him not imagine, without any reflexion, nor publish to all the world, that his comrade has forged a letter of Leibniz to rob him of the glory of being an original.
HA. (And then it goes on like that for a while.)
or did Maupertuis also talk about doctors and biology?
He did. He also suggested vivisections of prisoners as part of medical research, as far as I recall from the Voltaire and the Maupertuis bios. (The Maupertuis biographer basically goes...he was tired?... on that one as far as I recall.)
The other thing to keep in minds is that according to what I've read, Voltaire parodied several of Maupertuis' own essays for this. Since we haven't read the original essays, we're a bit lost for context here. I imagine it's like watching that Star Wars parody, Spaceballs, without being familiar with anything Star Wars. One gets it's a parody, but if you don't know what exactly it's spoofing, some of the fun would be inevitably lost. That's the problem with most satire. For contemporaries like Wilhelmine and Lehndorff, both of whom ought to have in theory disapproved of this pamphlet, it was incredibly funny - Lehndorff's "Voltaire bad, but wow, Akakia is hilarious!" diary entry reads almost identical to Wilhelmine's letter to Fritz saying "Undoubtedly he's behaved badly towards you, but wow, Akakia is funny!". They, of course, had the entire context and got all the jokes, and we just don't.
He did. He also suggested vivisections of prisoners as part of medical research, as far as I recall from the Voltaire and the Maupertuis bios. (The Maupertuis biographer basically goes...he was tired?... on that one as far as I recall.)
The other thing to keep in minds is that according to what I've read, Voltaire parodied several of Maupertuis' own essays for this. Since we haven't read the original essays, we're a bit lost for context here. I imagine it's like watching that Star Wars parody, Spaceballs, without being familiar with anything Star Wars. One gets it's a parody, but if you don't know what exactly it's spoofing, some of the fun would be inevitably lost. That's the problem with most satire. For contemporaries like Wilhelmine and Lehndorff, both of whom ought to have in theory disapproved of this pamphlet, it was incredibly funny - Lehndorff's "Voltaire bad, but wow, Akakia is hilarious!" diary entry reads almost identical to Wilhelmine's letter to Fritz saying "Undoubtedly he's behaved badly towards you, but wow, Akakia is funny!". They, of course, had the entire context and got all the jokes, and we just don't.
(The Maupertuis biographer basically goes...he was tired?... on that one as far as I recall.)
Hee! Yeah, fair enough.
The other thing to keep in minds is that according to what I've read, Voltaire parodied several of Maupertuis' own essays for this.
Ohhhh, that makes so much sense of all these stylistic things I didn't really understand at all! I mean, I still don't understand them, but now I know why I don't understand them? :) Like, some of what Voltaire writes I can at least partially reconstruct the content, but the style didn't make any sense to me.
Hee! Yeah, fair enough.
The other thing to keep in minds is that according to what I've read, Voltaire parodied several of Maupertuis' own essays for this.
Ohhhh, that makes so much sense of all these stylistic things I didn't really understand at all! I mean, I still don't understand them, but now I know why I don't understand them? :) Like, some of what Voltaire writes I can at least partially reconstruct the content, but the style didn't make any sense to me.
Again, I'm delighted to see you doing research and telling us about it! Akakia is definitely on my list, but as Selena says, we lack so much context.
Alas, this sounds like just the job for a royal detective, but the royal detective is AWOL. Fortunately, it should be just a few more days until I can be more active in salon again.
Fontenoy: I don't actually know this one, and Wiki's not helping. All I can find is that Saxe was too ill with edema to sit a horse, so he had to be carried in a wicker chair. However, I have on my Kindle a sample of a book about Fontenoy, since I know so little about it for someone with an interest in the military history of this point, and I'll bump it up in priority for you, once I get back to reading more. ;)
The one thing I do know about Fontenoy and Voltaire is that it was one of the few occasions on which Voltaire got to act in his most longed-for role: court poet/historian. He wrote an officially comissioned poem praising the French victory. Louis XV was present and nominally in command, so Voltaire writing a poem was both a chance for Louis to get some bragging rights in Europe as warrior king, and a chance for Voltaire to try to advance his career by flattering Louis.
So there may or may not be some allusion to that, I'm not sure. And I haven't read Voltaire's poem, but it's one of the things a good detective would look into. ;)
did Maupertuis also talk about doctors and biology?
I knew Selena was going to bring up the vivisection, and so it came to pass. :)
let him not upon every occasion, whether to the purpose or not, mention the polar circle.
Hahahaha, let me put it this way: if *I* had led the polar expedition to measure the circumference of the Earth, you woudl be hearing about it on every occasion, whether to the purpose or not. :'D
Alas, this sounds like just the job for a royal detective, but the royal detective is AWOL. Fortunately, it should be just a few more days until I can be more active in salon again.
Fontenoy: I don't actually know this one, and Wiki's not helping. All I can find is that Saxe was too ill with edema to sit a horse, so he had to be carried in a wicker chair. However, I have on my Kindle a sample of a book about Fontenoy, since I know so little about it for someone with an interest in the military history of this point, and I'll bump it up in priority for you, once I get back to reading more. ;)
The one thing I do know about Fontenoy and Voltaire is that it was one of the few occasions on which Voltaire got to act in his most longed-for role: court poet/historian. He wrote an officially comissioned poem praising the French victory. Louis XV was present and nominally in command, so Voltaire writing a poem was both a chance for Louis to get some bragging rights in Europe as warrior king, and a chance for Voltaire to try to advance his career by flattering Louis.
So there may or may not be some allusion to that, I'm not sure. And I haven't read Voltaire's poem, but it's one of the things a good detective would look into. ;)
did Maupertuis also talk about doctors and biology?
I knew Selena was going to bring up the vivisection, and so it came to pass. :)
let him not upon every occasion, whether to the purpose or not, mention the polar circle.
Hahahaha, let me put it this way: if *I* had led the polar expedition to measure the circumference of the Earth, you woudl be hearing about it on every occasion, whether to the purpose or not. :'D
Again, I'm delighted to see you doing research and telling us about it! Akakia is definitely on my list, but as Selena says, we lack so much context.
:D I'm going to blame Selena for having a great fic prompt :D
Alas, this sounds like just the job for a royal detective, but the royal detective is AWOL. Fortunately, it should be just a few more days until I can be more active in salon again.
Yay!
Hahahaha, let me put it this way: if *I* had led the polar expedition to measure the circumference of the Earth, you woudl be hearing about it on every occasion, whether to the purpose or not. :'D
Ha! Yes, I was also laughing at Voltaire here -- I think this bit reveals more about Voltaire than it does about Maupertuis :D
:D I'm going to blame Selena for having a great fic prompt :D
Alas, this sounds like just the job for a royal detective, but the royal detective is AWOL. Fortunately, it should be just a few more days until I can be more active in salon again.
Yay!
Hahahaha, let me put it this way: if *I* had led the polar expedition to measure the circumference of the Earth, you woudl be hearing about it on every occasion, whether to the purpose or not. :'D
Ha! Yes, I was also laughing at Voltaire here -- I think this bit reveals more about Voltaire than it does about Maupertuis :D
Mildred provided our salon with a copy from the story of Kiekemal by a local historian and descendantn of the original settlers, Emmi Wegfraß, which turns out to be the source of the story I first came across in Fahlenkamp's book, which you can read discussed at length here.
To repeat the key charge as Fahlenkamp phrases it: On April 9th 1757, Fredersdorf gets dismissed from his office as Chamberlain for, as it is said, dishonesty together with the Kriegs and Domänenrat Johann Pfeiffer when buying Kiekemal near Mahlsdorf. Kiekemal was then an empty dispopulated era in the south east of Berlin. The King had provided money for the resettling of this era, which however ended up being pilfered by the director of the Ressettling Commmission of the Kürmärkische Kammer, Johann Friedrich Pfeiffer (1717 - 1787) into his own pockets, under the cooperation of Frederdorf. That his closest confidant Fredersdorf took part in this must have been a heavy blow to Friedrich. The whole thing - an affair that dragged on for years - was discovered when several of the colonists complained, who had been lured from Würtemburg to Brandenburg with the promise of land and no taxes and had ended up being stuck in miserable huts for which they had to pay rent.
Emmi Wegfraß goes into way more detail about this, to which I'll get in a moment. First, something that remains completely unresolved is the contradiction which I spotted when googling Johann Friedrich Pfeiffer after reading Fahlenkamp's book, which starts with the dates, and this is even more puzzling in Wegfraß' book, and ends with what's said about the conclusion. Every biographical entry online I found on Pfeiffer says he was commissioner until 1750, and that he then left Prussia after the "unjustified" (wiki) charge. This article mentions a short stint in prison while the trial was ongoing but also says his name was cleared and that the trial ended in his favour, that he was "freigesprochen" (declared innocent). Emmy Wegfraß, by contrast, says that the commission in charge of investigating the entire affair delivered their report to Fritz on March 31st 1756, declaring that Pfeiffer was guilty, which results in Fritz ordering Pfeiffer's possessions were to be liquidated to compensate for the damage. She also quotes a cabinet order from June 4th 1756 by Fritz in which it says "Pfeiffer has executed the commission entrusted to him badly and derelict of duty and brought everything in great confusion". She then claims that Pfeiffer spent four years under arrest while the commission was investigating, then in 1758 when the "Berliner Kriminal Senat" sent a confirming judgment he got condemned to a further two years imprisonment, and then banished from Prussia. This is at a time when all the online dictionaries say he had already left Prussia and was working elsewhere. This made me wonder for a while whether in fact there were two Pfeiffers and I had the wrong man all the while, but no, in a short "who died when" at the end of the opening section she grudgingly admits that after "the judgment was spoken about him in Prussia", Pfeiffer "occupied himself practically and as a writer with the Cameralwissenschaften" and died a professor in Mainz, so, it is indeed supposed to be the same guy from the dictionaries. (She does not, however, mention what he was writing about, or that his post Prussia CV was that of a liberal innovator; he's a 100% villain in her book.) Since she quotes dated documents from the archives like the cabinet order, I'm still at a loss as to where the date divergence from all the dictionaries comes from.
Now, Fredersdorf. Re: his particular involvement in the entire affair, I'll get to what she quotes from letters and documents from, and what conclusion she drwas. Where she gets speculative is concluding that the lack of Fritz letters to Fredersdorf after 1956 is because of Kiekemal, saying that Fritz dismissing him (as opposed to Fredersdorf retiring) on April 9th 1757, and saying Fredersdorf died of grief for his lost honor (in January 1758). (She seems to be the source for this bit in wiki.) I checked her bibliography, and on Fredersdorf, she solely has Fontane's Wanderungen, which contains nothing of the sort, it just has the story which she also has that supposedly Fredesdorf wanted to be buried with his cartridge bag from his Küstrin uniform (Fontane was a believer in the "they met at Küstrin" variant), and Voltaire's memoirs (she quotes some of his comments on Fredersdorf). Considering I've seen no other source for "died in grief for his lost honor", I'm now tempted to go with the idea that this was her original conclusion (because Fredersdorf's death followed relatively soon after his dismissal/retirement) which was subsequently accepted as fact. She does not mention his various illnesses and doesn't appear to know he got consulted by his successor re: Glasow when that affair went down in the spring and summer of 1757.
However, the woman really did solid research re: the whole settlement story. I don't necessarily always agree with her conclusions, but here's what she can document, and how the story went in her account:
- Johann Friedrich Pfeiffer from Köpenick appointed as Comissioner in 1748. In the same year, he clashes with the Bock family from which he has rented a dairy, as he denounces one of the Bocks for illegally keeping 100 sheep more than declared to the administration; thereafter, the Bock family hates on Pfeiffer and refers to him only as "Secretary Informer Pfeiffer"
- Pfeiffer, who is in charge of colonisation projects (that's what he's the commissioner for as of that year, fitting with his life long speciality), after viewing the ca. 32 hectar land around the Müggelsee decides they're fit for colonisation and asks Bock whether he'd sell to the sate
- Bock, hating on Pfeiffer for the sheep matter, see above, says "Hell no!"
- Pfeiffer ends his renting the dairy from Bock's brother, and in August 1750 suggests the area as suitable for 2 to 3 foreign colonists; he also approaches Fredersdorf with the idea
- in December 1750, Fritz invites Pfeiffer to make a personal report to him at Potsdam
- In a letter by Präsident von Gröben (a relation to the lieutenant of FRitz' youth?) from February 22 1751, Commissioner Pfeiffer gets instructed to officially assess the area in terms of whether it can be settled by 2 - 3 foreign farming families
- in the original plan, each farmer is supposed to get a certain amount of land, and can own up to 100 sheep plus 6 - 10 cows. After six tax free years (to attract settlers and to get the whole thing going) he's supposed to pay rent and tax thereafter
- however, since the commission doesn't have money to finance building farms and providing animals etc. for the farmers in the first place, there should be a private entrepeneur involved who will finance the entire business at first and gets a share from the profits from the farmers till his original investment is covered, plus interest
- as said entrepeneur, Commissioner Pfeiffer suggests Colonel Johann Ferdinand von Trachenberg, who in turn provides Pfeiffer with a document enabling Pfeiffer to negotiate a contract on his behalf; however, this document isn't signed by Trachenberg but by Fredersdorf; it gets accepted by the Köpenick city administration
- The Bocks are pissed off and still don't want to give up the land; however, they themselves have rented it from the state, and their contract is about to run out; they petition to have it prolonged
- in May 1751, the document empowering Pfeiffer on Trachenberg's behalf is questioned because Fredersdorf has signed it, not Trachenberg. Trachenberg himself then shows ups and personally delivers the declaration demanded to the commission
- on July 6th 1751, the ministry responsible for land says that the contract to the Bocks has run out, and the Kiekemal territory can now be used to colonisation; however, Trachenberg hasn't yet delivered the money
- Fredersdorf then provides 4 000 Reichstaler from his personal money; because of her later involvement, Emmi Wegfraß speculates the money may alternatively have come from Frau von Marschall, widow of the late Samuel von Marschall, and was loaned to Fredersdorf in turn, but if so, there aren't any document proving this
- after Fredersdorf has provided the money, the plans can now get signed off, and advertisement to potential settlers starts
- At the start of 1752, the Bocks sell their brewery to Trachenberg; they later will say they were pressured into it. This is the brewery the settlers will later get their beer from. As you might recall, Fredersdorf among other things was invested in breweries.
- on December 24 1751, Trachenberg via Pfeiffer makes the offer to provide money for the settlement of six more families if there is additional land; this gets greenlighted by Fritz
- on July 7th 1752, Colonel von Trachenberg transfers all his claims on the Bock property plus the Kiekenmal land to Fredersdorf; this contract is co-signed by the Köpenick administration
- in August 1752, the chamber for agriculture confirms the transfer
- on December 21st 1752, a cousin of Pfeiffer's buys additional land at the Müggelsee next to the colonisation land so far, which thus further expands
- on January 17th 1753, Fredersdorf writes to Frau von Marschall to offer her the Kiekemal land. He says there will three full time farmers to work on the land as leaseholders
- Frau von Marschall asks whether there will be tax and rent free years; Fredersdorf replies that since hte farmers will get cattle, houses, and land provided to them right from the beginning, there will not be tax and rent free years; this is of course a direct contrast to the original intention
(Wegfraß doesn't say this, but I do: since Fredersdorf at this point has provided the money for most of the aquisitions and the land, it could be argued he's entitled to change the rules, but it IS a significant change from how the whole project started)
- on March 27th, 1753, Fredersdorf signs a contract with Frau von Marschall, selling her the Kiekemal territory along with all the houses built so far as well as the cattle bought (6 oxes, 5 cows, one bull, 160 sheep with ca. 60 lambs) and farming equipment, for 4 000 Reichstaler (i.e. his original investment)
- on June 24th 1753, the three colonist families from Würtemberg arrive; however, they don't have a written contract, and the news that a) the land they're supposed to settle on is owned by Frau von Marschall, and b) Frau von Marschall wants to charge interest immediately instead of waiting for 6 years, which means essentially they'll work for her, not themselves, is a big shock
- cue a year of clashes between the three farmer families and Frau von Marschall, ending in the farmers refusing to work
- on June 28th 1754 Commissioner Ockel is supposed to check out the situation and complaints, and seems to blame the settlers more than Frau von Marschall, since the settlers he says let horses starve despite Frau von Marschall having given each 10 Reichstaler to help them over the winter
- Frau von Marschall writes indignant letters to the commission, calling the settlers lazy; Emmi Wegfrass says this is unfair (since settlers are refusing to work for her is their only way to fight against being exploited, given they were promised tax and rent free years they now don't get), but speculates she might vent her personal misery on them, since of her seven children, all but two are dead, one son is in debt and shocks his mother by leaving the country and becoming a Catholic, the other also is into gambling and acquiring debts
- the mulberry trees and silk spinning houses which Pfeiffer was supposed to plant and build, respectively, haven't yet been done or finished
- on November 23rd, 1754, Colonel von Ingersleben (tea cup guy or a relation?) reports to the King that Pfeiffer has mishandled the situation and has personally enriched himself
- on November 25th, 1754, Pfeiffer gets arrested under this charge; a commission is supposed to investigate the actual state of things at Kiekemal
- Spring 1755: Fritz dismisses his valet Anderson without a pension and confiscates Anderson's correspondence with Pfeiffer; Anderson had been given the estate Philippsthal by Pfeiffer
- August 1755: Fredersdorf writes a letter to Frau von Marschall, saying he's heard the commission is supposed to investigate the following complaints:
1) The Colonists complain that they don't get the tax- and rent free years promised and that instead their rye harvest has been confiscated
2) The local administration hasn't received the 500 Reichstaler bail
3) The beer comes from Dahlwitz instead of Köpenick
4) The sheep farming is conducted in Dahlwitz and not by the colonists
5) the House for spinning hasn't been finished yet despite the wood having been provided
He advises her to come to terms with the Köpenick administration and the farmers, and says he won't interfere any further, he's done with the entire business.
To repeat the key charge as Fahlenkamp phrases it: On April 9th 1757, Fredersdorf gets dismissed from his office as Chamberlain for, as it is said, dishonesty together with the Kriegs and Domänenrat Johann Pfeiffer when buying Kiekemal near Mahlsdorf. Kiekemal was then an empty dispopulated era in the south east of Berlin. The King had provided money for the resettling of this era, which however ended up being pilfered by the director of the Ressettling Commmission of the Kürmärkische Kammer, Johann Friedrich Pfeiffer (1717 - 1787) into his own pockets, under the cooperation of Frederdorf. That his closest confidant Fredersdorf took part in this must have been a heavy blow to Friedrich. The whole thing - an affair that dragged on for years - was discovered when several of the colonists complained, who had been lured from Würtemburg to Brandenburg with the promise of land and no taxes and had ended up being stuck in miserable huts for which they had to pay rent.
Emmi Wegfraß goes into way more detail about this, to which I'll get in a moment. First, something that remains completely unresolved is the contradiction which I spotted when googling Johann Friedrich Pfeiffer after reading Fahlenkamp's book, which starts with the dates, and this is even more puzzling in Wegfraß' book, and ends with what's said about the conclusion. Every biographical entry online I found on Pfeiffer says he was commissioner until 1750, and that he then left Prussia after the "unjustified" (wiki) charge. This article mentions a short stint in prison while the trial was ongoing but also says his name was cleared and that the trial ended in his favour, that he was "freigesprochen" (declared innocent). Emmy Wegfraß, by contrast, says that the commission in charge of investigating the entire affair delivered their report to Fritz on March 31st 1756, declaring that Pfeiffer was guilty, which results in Fritz ordering Pfeiffer's possessions were to be liquidated to compensate for the damage. She also quotes a cabinet order from June 4th 1756 by Fritz in which it says "Pfeiffer has executed the commission entrusted to him badly and derelict of duty and brought everything in great confusion". She then claims that Pfeiffer spent four years under arrest while the commission was investigating, then in 1758 when the "Berliner Kriminal Senat" sent a confirming judgment he got condemned to a further two years imprisonment, and then banished from Prussia. This is at a time when all the online dictionaries say he had already left Prussia and was working elsewhere. This made me wonder for a while whether in fact there were two Pfeiffers and I had the wrong man all the while, but no, in a short "who died when" at the end of the opening section she grudgingly admits that after "the judgment was spoken about him in Prussia", Pfeiffer "occupied himself practically and as a writer with the Cameralwissenschaften" and died a professor in Mainz, so, it is indeed supposed to be the same guy from the dictionaries. (She does not, however, mention what he was writing about, or that his post Prussia CV was that of a liberal innovator; he's a 100% villain in her book.) Since she quotes dated documents from the archives like the cabinet order, I'm still at a loss as to where the date divergence from all the dictionaries comes from.
Now, Fredersdorf. Re: his particular involvement in the entire affair, I'll get to what she quotes from letters and documents from, and what conclusion she drwas. Where she gets speculative is concluding that the lack of Fritz letters to Fredersdorf after 1956 is because of Kiekemal, saying that Fritz dismissing him (as opposed to Fredersdorf retiring) on April 9th 1757, and saying Fredersdorf died of grief for his lost honor (in January 1758). (She seems to be the source for this bit in wiki.) I checked her bibliography, and on Fredersdorf, she solely has Fontane's Wanderungen, which contains nothing of the sort, it just has the story which she also has that supposedly Fredesdorf wanted to be buried with his cartridge bag from his Küstrin uniform (Fontane was a believer in the "they met at Küstrin" variant), and Voltaire's memoirs (she quotes some of his comments on Fredersdorf). Considering I've seen no other source for "died in grief for his lost honor", I'm now tempted to go with the idea that this was her original conclusion (because Fredersdorf's death followed relatively soon after his dismissal/retirement) which was subsequently accepted as fact. She does not mention his various illnesses and doesn't appear to know he got consulted by his successor re: Glasow when that affair went down in the spring and summer of 1757.
However, the woman really did solid research re: the whole settlement story. I don't necessarily always agree with her conclusions, but here's what she can document, and how the story went in her account:
- Johann Friedrich Pfeiffer from Köpenick appointed as Comissioner in 1748. In the same year, he clashes with the Bock family from which he has rented a dairy, as he denounces one of the Bocks for illegally keeping 100 sheep more than declared to the administration; thereafter, the Bock family hates on Pfeiffer and refers to him only as "Secretary Informer Pfeiffer"
- Pfeiffer, who is in charge of colonisation projects (that's what he's the commissioner for as of that year, fitting with his life long speciality), after viewing the ca. 32 hectar land around the Müggelsee decides they're fit for colonisation and asks Bock whether he'd sell to the sate
- Bock, hating on Pfeiffer for the sheep matter, see above, says "Hell no!"
- Pfeiffer ends his renting the dairy from Bock's brother, and in August 1750 suggests the area as suitable for 2 to 3 foreign colonists; he also approaches Fredersdorf with the idea
- in December 1750, Fritz invites Pfeiffer to make a personal report to him at Potsdam
- In a letter by Präsident von Gröben (a relation to the lieutenant of FRitz' youth?) from February 22 1751, Commissioner Pfeiffer gets instructed to officially assess the area in terms of whether it can be settled by 2 - 3 foreign farming families
- in the original plan, each farmer is supposed to get a certain amount of land, and can own up to 100 sheep plus 6 - 10 cows. After six tax free years (to attract settlers and to get the whole thing going) he's supposed to pay rent and tax thereafter
- however, since the commission doesn't have money to finance building farms and providing animals etc. for the farmers in the first place, there should be a private entrepeneur involved who will finance the entire business at first and gets a share from the profits from the farmers till his original investment is covered, plus interest
- as said entrepeneur, Commissioner Pfeiffer suggests Colonel Johann Ferdinand von Trachenberg, who in turn provides Pfeiffer with a document enabling Pfeiffer to negotiate a contract on his behalf; however, this document isn't signed by Trachenberg but by Fredersdorf; it gets accepted by the Köpenick city administration
- The Bocks are pissed off and still don't want to give up the land; however, they themselves have rented it from the state, and their contract is about to run out; they petition to have it prolonged
- in May 1751, the document empowering Pfeiffer on Trachenberg's behalf is questioned because Fredersdorf has signed it, not Trachenberg. Trachenberg himself then shows ups and personally delivers the declaration demanded to the commission
- on July 6th 1751, the ministry responsible for land says that the contract to the Bocks has run out, and the Kiekemal territory can now be used to colonisation; however, Trachenberg hasn't yet delivered the money
- Fredersdorf then provides 4 000 Reichstaler from his personal money; because of her later involvement, Emmi Wegfraß speculates the money may alternatively have come from Frau von Marschall, widow of the late Samuel von Marschall, and was loaned to Fredersdorf in turn, but if so, there aren't any document proving this
- after Fredersdorf has provided the money, the plans can now get signed off, and advertisement to potential settlers starts
- At the start of 1752, the Bocks sell their brewery to Trachenberg; they later will say they were pressured into it. This is the brewery the settlers will later get their beer from. As you might recall, Fredersdorf among other things was invested in breweries.
- on December 24 1751, Trachenberg via Pfeiffer makes the offer to provide money for the settlement of six more families if there is additional land; this gets greenlighted by Fritz
- on July 7th 1752, Colonel von Trachenberg transfers all his claims on the Bock property plus the Kiekenmal land to Fredersdorf; this contract is co-signed by the Köpenick administration
- in August 1752, the chamber for agriculture confirms the transfer
- on December 21st 1752, a cousin of Pfeiffer's buys additional land at the Müggelsee next to the colonisation land so far, which thus further expands
- on January 17th 1753, Fredersdorf writes to Frau von Marschall to offer her the Kiekemal land. He says there will three full time farmers to work on the land as leaseholders
- Frau von Marschall asks whether there will be tax and rent free years; Fredersdorf replies that since hte farmers will get cattle, houses, and land provided to them right from the beginning, there will not be tax and rent free years; this is of course a direct contrast to the original intention
(Wegfraß doesn't say this, but I do: since Fredersdorf at this point has provided the money for most of the aquisitions and the land, it could be argued he's entitled to change the rules, but it IS a significant change from how the whole project started)
- on March 27th, 1753, Fredersdorf signs a contract with Frau von Marschall, selling her the Kiekemal territory along with all the houses built so far as well as the cattle bought (6 oxes, 5 cows, one bull, 160 sheep with ca. 60 lambs) and farming equipment, for 4 000 Reichstaler (i.e. his original investment)
- on June 24th 1753, the three colonist families from Würtemberg arrive; however, they don't have a written contract, and the news that a) the land they're supposed to settle on is owned by Frau von Marschall, and b) Frau von Marschall wants to charge interest immediately instead of waiting for 6 years, which means essentially they'll work for her, not themselves, is a big shock
- cue a year of clashes between the three farmer families and Frau von Marschall, ending in the farmers refusing to work
- on June 28th 1754 Commissioner Ockel is supposed to check out the situation and complaints, and seems to blame the settlers more than Frau von Marschall, since the settlers he says let horses starve despite Frau von Marschall having given each 10 Reichstaler to help them over the winter
- Frau von Marschall writes indignant letters to the commission, calling the settlers lazy; Emmi Wegfrass says this is unfair (since settlers are refusing to work for her is their only way to fight against being exploited, given they were promised tax and rent free years they now don't get), but speculates she might vent her personal misery on them, since of her seven children, all but two are dead, one son is in debt and shocks his mother by leaving the country and becoming a Catholic, the other also is into gambling and acquiring debts
- the mulberry trees and silk spinning houses which Pfeiffer was supposed to plant and build, respectively, haven't yet been done or finished
- on November 23rd, 1754, Colonel von Ingersleben (tea cup guy or a relation?) reports to the King that Pfeiffer has mishandled the situation and has personally enriched himself
- on November 25th, 1754, Pfeiffer gets arrested under this charge; a commission is supposed to investigate the actual state of things at Kiekemal
- Spring 1755: Fritz dismisses his valet Anderson without a pension and confiscates Anderson's correspondence with Pfeiffer; Anderson had been given the estate Philippsthal by Pfeiffer
- August 1755: Fredersdorf writes a letter to Frau von Marschall, saying he's heard the commission is supposed to investigate the following complaints:
1) The Colonists complain that they don't get the tax- and rent free years promised and that instead their rye harvest has been confiscated
2) The local administration hasn't received the 500 Reichstaler bail
3) The beer comes from Dahlwitz instead of Köpenick
4) The sheep farming is conducted in Dahlwitz and not by the colonists
5) the House for spinning hasn't been finished yet despite the wood having been provided
He advises her to come to terms with the Köpenick administration and the farmers, and says he won't interfere any further, he's done with the entire business.
Edited 2021-09-03 17:36 (UTC)
Re: The Kiekemal Tale: Commissioners, Councillors and Colonists
mildred_of_midgard
2021-09-04 12:30 am (UTC)(link)
Woooow, you guys have no idea how excited I get when we turn up something like this that we've been looking and looking for! Buying this book was a gamble, and it paid off. This is a gold mine! Enough dates to make even me happy!
I, uh, was going to reply in full, but I now have 33 tabs dedicated to the subject of Pfeiffer's dates open, and now I must get off the computer. But! I have a 3-day weekend, so expect more.
One question: does she have a source for the April 9, 1757 date? Because the letter from Fredersdorf's successor is dated April 3, which I've always taken as another strike against the claim of dismissal for embezzlement on April 9.
I, uh, was going to reply in full, but I now have 33 tabs dedicated to the subject of Pfeiffer's dates open, and now I must get off the computer. But! I have a 3-day weekend, so expect more.
One question: does she have a source for the April 9, 1757 date? Because the letter from Fredersdorf's successor is dated April 3, which I've always taken as another strike against the claim of dismissal for embezzlement on April 9.
April 9, 1757: no, she does not quote from a document there. She just says that this is when the dismissal happens. I should say there aren’t any footnotes at all, not in this chapter nor as far as I can see in the rest of the book, but whenever she provides a direct quote - as when Fritz gives a cabinet order saying Pfeiffer has managed the commisson badly, for example - , I’m assuming she has found the document in question in the archives. (The Prussian Secret State Archive and the Berlin city archive.) She also includes the occasional facsimile, as of Fredersdorf’s letter to Frau von Marschall. (No, I can’t read it. It’s 18th century hand writing. I can make it out his signature, that’s all.) BTW, the format of the book is very scan unfriendly large, in case you’re wondering.
Re: The Kiekemal Tale: Commissioners, Councillors and Colonists
mildred_of_midgard
2021-09-04 02:11 pm (UTC)(link)
April 9, 1757: no, she does not quote from a document there. She just says that this is when the dismissal happens.
One of these days, we should order a copy of the original April 3, 1757 document from the archives and see if we can getprinzsorgenfrei to help us read it! (Along with several other items I'm interested in.)
BTW, the format of the book is very scan unfriendly large, in case you’re wondering.
Gah! This is exactly what I was wondering and was going to ask. Hang onto it, then, I guess, and maybe someday I'll be in Germany and can pick it up and see if I can make it work with my fancy digitizing technology. (I don't trust the overseas mail enough to risk sending the only copy I've been able to find.) Or if another copy comes on the market for a reasonable price, I'll consider ordering it, now that we know it contains reams of data and won't just be tossed aside after a quick skim.
One of these days, we should order a copy of the original April 3, 1757 document from the archives and see if we can get
prinzsorgenfrei to help us read it! (Along with several other items I'm interested in.)BTW, the format of the book is very scan unfriendly large, in case you’re wondering.
Gah! This is exactly what I was wondering and was going to ask. Hang onto it, then, I guess, and maybe someday I'll be in Germany and can pick it up and see if I can make it work with my fancy digitizing technology. (I don't trust the overseas mail enough to risk sending the only copy I've been able to find.) Or if another copy comes on the market for a reasonable price, I'll consider ordering it, now that we know it contains reams of data and won't just be tossed aside after a quick skim.
I just want to give cahn due credit, because I'd found this book months ago, but had been hesitating to fork over $25 for it, with no way to tell if it mentioned Fredersdorf or not. It really was a gamble. All I knew was that 1) the Fredersdorf Wikipedia article mentioned financial dishonesty in the colonization of Kiekemal, 2) the Kiekemal Wikipedia article mentioned that some nameless officials had engaged in financial dishonesty during the initial mid 18th century colonization, 3) the Kiekemal article cited Wegfraß's book as a source.
But then Cahn wanted an out-of-print book (not relevant to salon) digitized, because I apparently run a book-digitizing business now, lol, this is awesome. And of course she offered to bribe me with books, and I proposed a contribution to the Cause of Exonerating Fredersdorf that was dear to her heart. Because $25 is not a lot for a book you want to read, but is a lot for a book that you might toss aside after discovering it contains nothing of interest.
And so Cahn donated $7 to the cause, and she sent me an Amazon gift card with a note reading "For [book to be digitized] and Fredersdorf Defense Fund," which still makes me laugh.
And then I sentselenak the book, because while $25 is a bit much for a book that may or may not contain anything of interest, $40 to ship to the US is *definitely* too much, and Selena naturally had a write-up completed the day she received the book.
Salon alchemy strikes again!
cahn due credit, because I'd found this book months ago, but had been hesitating to fork over $25 for it, with no way to tell if it mentioned Fredersdorf or not. It really was a gamble. All I knew was that 1) the Fredersdorf Wikipedia article mentioned financial dishonesty in the colonization of Kiekemal, 2) the Kiekemal Wikipedia article mentioned that some nameless officials had engaged in financial dishonesty during the initial mid 18th century colonization, 3) the Kiekemal article cited Wegfraß's book as a source.But then Cahn wanted an out-of-print book (not relevant to salon) digitized, because I apparently run a book-digitizing business now, lol, this is awesome. And of course she offered to bribe me with books, and I proposed a contribution to the Cause of Exonerating Fredersdorf that was dear to her heart. Because $25 is not a lot for a book you want to read, but is a lot for a book that you might toss aside after discovering it contains nothing of interest.
And so Cahn donated $7 to the cause, and she sent me an Amazon gift card with a note reading "For [book to be digitized] and Fredersdorf Defense Fund," which still makes me laugh.
And then I sent
selenak the book, because while $25 is a bit much for a book that may or may not contain anything of interest, $40 to ship to the US is *definitely* too much, and Selena naturally had a write-up completed the day she received the book.Salon alchemy strikes again!
Yes, same! It's exactly what I'd been looking for a couple years ago but my Google-fu had failed me, and I was just delighted when cahn turned up on an old entry of mine this week with, "HEY, someone on my friends list just read this book that is relevant to your interests in this post, we should get a copy!"
I will definitely read it at some point, but no idea when.
Blame Selena for the length of my reading list.
cahn turned up on an old entry of mine this week with, "HEY, someone on my friends list just read this book that is relevant to your interests in this post, we should get a copy!"I will definitely read it at some point, but no idea when.
Haha, well, it's because you commented on my post going "Hey, that author you're reading, you should check out my Entire Tag on this author!" :)
Yep, Selena is definitely making my reading list quiiiiite long. Although the composition is rather different than yours (says the person who just finished Sandman -- actually, speaking of which, there's a discussion with Selena regarding Fritz and Algarotti on that post that you might find amusing :) You need not have read Sandman, really -- I mean, obviously that would lend a lot of nuance, but it's enough to know that the Endless are personifications of Desire, Death, etc., and skip the non-Fritzian bits.)
Yep, Selena is definitely making my reading list quiiiiite long. Although the composition is rather different than yours (says the person who just finished Sandman -- actually, speaking of which, there's a discussion with Selena regarding Fritz and Algarotti on that post that you might find amusing :) You need not have read Sandman, really -- I mean, obviously that would lend a lot of nuance, but it's enough to know that the Endless are personifications of Desire, Death, etc., and skip the non-Fritzian bits.)
Oh, I've been following the discussion (and skimming the non-Fritizan bits), not to worry! Algarotti as desire, and Lehndorff's reaction, were indeed hilarious, and I've been chortling. :)
Edited 2021-09-06 14:32 (UTC)
Re: The Kiekemal Tale: Commissioners, Councillors and Colonists
mildred_of_midgard
2021-09-04 01:45 pm (UTC)(link)
First of all, I'm delighted by all the specifically documented facts and dates. You're right that the chronology diverges greatly from the biographies, which is something I'm investigating.
Considering what we've found, I'm unsurprised that the Fredersdorf claims turned out to be unsourced. Like you, I suspect she's making inferences. Though I'm still really curious about that April 9th date, though--it seems like she has some kind of source for that.
But now we've finally found the source for Wikipedia, and aside from the April 9th date, it doesn't appear to be drawing on earlier sources. Wikipedia so clearly was that it was bugging me and that's why I got so persistent in trying to find what source.
the lack of Fritz letters to Fredersdorf after 1956 is because of Kiekemal, saying that Fritz dismissing him (as opposed to Fredersdorf retiring) on April 9th 1757
If so, it took Fritz a full year to stop paying him and stop entrusting him with important stuff after he stopped speaking to him? I always assumed that the lack of letters from after 1756 was similar to the lack of letters before 1745, a survival accident based on the part where Fritz was asking Caroline for the letters back, and she sent these and promised the others had been destroyed.
It's kind of interesting to me that the periods we don't have letters from overlap with the wars so much: our letters start with Soor, at the end of the Second Silesian War, and stop shortly after the Diplomatic Revolution, when Fritz realized there was going to be a Third Silesian War. Maybe wartime letters really were more likely to get destroyed. But we do have those post-Soor letters, so it's not that we have no wartime letters. Nor do we have letters from the peacetime gap between the First and Second Silesian Wars.
Anyway, given that Caroline, as I recall, said that the rest of the letters had been destroyed, I would be very wary of making an argument from silence here.
(Wegfraß doesn't say this, but I do: since Fredersdorf at this point has provided the money for most of the aquisitions and the land, it could be argued he's entitled to change the rules, but it IS a significant change from how the whole project started)
It is, and if he had just changed the rules, I would say maybe he was entitled to do that, but the fact that it was still being advertised to the colonists with the original terms, I agree with you that this was very dastardly of him. If I were a colonist, I would be most upset! But I also agree that it doesn't seem like he personally profited.
Frau von Marschall writes indignant letters to the commission, calling the settlers lazy; Emmi Wegfrass says this is unfair (since settlers are refusing to work for her is their only way to fight against being exploited
I have to agree with this.
on November 23rd, 1754, Colonel von Ingersleben (tea cup guy or a relation?)
With the caveat that these noble families have multiple members with the same rank, Wikipedia says teacup guy was a colonel in 1754, and Chief of the Feldjägerkorps and Hofjägermeister. Also that, at least in the 1740s, As an officer of the Guard Battalion, Ingersleben was now a constant companion of the king, even on his travels. Occasionally Friedrich sent him to the Reich with special assignments.. So I'm guessing it's teacup guy.
- Spring 1755: Fritz dismisses his valet Anderson without a pension and confiscates Anderson's correspondence with Pfeiffer; Anderson had been given the estate Philippsthal by Pfeiffer
Oooh, I knew that valet Anderson had been dismissed for financial shenanigans not long before Glasow was dismissed (arrested, imprisoned) for financial shenanigans, but I didn't realize it was the same financial shenanigans that Fredersdorf was allegedly involved in!
Excellent amount of detail, thank you!
Considering what we've found, I'm unsurprised that the Fredersdorf claims turned out to be unsourced. Like you, I suspect she's making inferences. Though I'm still really curious about that April 9th date, though--it seems like she has some kind of source for that.
But now we've finally found the source for Wikipedia, and aside from the April 9th date, it doesn't appear to be drawing on earlier sources. Wikipedia so clearly was that it was bugging me and that's why I got so persistent in trying to find what source.
the lack of Fritz letters to Fredersdorf after 1956 is because of Kiekemal, saying that Fritz dismissing him (as opposed to Fredersdorf retiring) on April 9th 1757
If so, it took Fritz a full year to stop paying him and stop entrusting him with important stuff after he stopped speaking to him? I always assumed that the lack of letters from after 1756 was similar to the lack of letters before 1745, a survival accident based on the part where Fritz was asking Caroline for the letters back, and she sent these and promised the others had been destroyed.
It's kind of interesting to me that the periods we don't have letters from overlap with the wars so much: our letters start with Soor, at the end of the Second Silesian War, and stop shortly after the Diplomatic Revolution, when Fritz realized there was going to be a Third Silesian War. Maybe wartime letters really were more likely to get destroyed. But we do have those post-Soor letters, so it's not that we have no wartime letters. Nor do we have letters from the peacetime gap between the First and Second Silesian Wars.
Anyway, given that Caroline, as I recall, said that the rest of the letters had been destroyed, I would be very wary of making an argument from silence here.
(Wegfraß doesn't say this, but I do: since Fredersdorf at this point has provided the money for most of the aquisitions and the land, it could be argued he's entitled to change the rules, but it IS a significant change from how the whole project started)
It is, and if he had just changed the rules, I would say maybe he was entitled to do that, but the fact that it was still being advertised to the colonists with the original terms, I agree with you that this was very dastardly of him. If I were a colonist, I would be most upset! But I also agree that it doesn't seem like he personally profited.
Frau von Marschall writes indignant letters to the commission, calling the settlers lazy; Emmi Wegfrass says this is unfair (since settlers are refusing to work for her is their only way to fight against being exploited
I have to agree with this.
on November 23rd, 1754, Colonel von Ingersleben (tea cup guy or a relation?)
With the caveat that these noble families have multiple members with the same rank, Wikipedia says teacup guy was a colonel in 1754, and Chief of the Feldjägerkorps and Hofjägermeister. Also that, at least in the 1740s, As an officer of the Guard Battalion, Ingersleben was now a constant companion of the king, even on his travels. Occasionally Friedrich sent him to the Reich with special assignments.. So I'm guessing it's teacup guy.
- Spring 1755: Fritz dismisses his valet Anderson without a pension and confiscates Anderson's correspondence with Pfeiffer; Anderson had been given the estate Philippsthal by Pfeiffer
Oooh, I knew that valet Anderson had been dismissed for financial shenanigans not long before Glasow was dismissed (arrested, imprisoned) for financial shenanigans, but I didn't realize it was the same financial shenanigans that Fredersdorf was allegedly involved in!
Excellent amount of detail, thank you!
On December 11th 1755, the commission talks to the three farmers without Frau von Marschall (whereas earlier, they'd talked to her but not them). It is noted down the colonists do not have a written contract to prove their entitlement to the tax- and rent free years, but they say they can't continue as it is and will leave again unless the rent is lowered, they get paid more for their work, and one of them gets ten Reichstaler for the cow which Frau von Marschall had confiscated when he didn't want to pay interest. Frau von Marschall gets a copy of the protocol on December 14th, and she's asked for a copy of her contract with Fredersdorf re: the sale of the property.
Emmy Wegfraß says that since the contract proves the changed conditions (no tax free years, higher interest) as opposed to the original plan, the guilt of Fredersdorf is proven, and clearly Fritz' letters stop because of this.
On March 31st, 1756, the investigating commission sends its concluding report to Fritz. Now here Emmy Wegfraß writes: "Johann Pfeiffer must admit he has taken 8061 Reichstaler 3 Groschen from the King's money" - which I found confusing since the money for the original investment into Kiekemal hadn't come from the state, as she herself said, but presumably this refers to Pfeiffer taking that much salary and writing off expenses - and broken broken his oath not to buy any of the colonist's stuff (when his cousin bought lands next to the Müggelsee) .
And that's it in terms of Fredersdorf's involvement. I already remarked on the inconsistency of her dates vs the dates of Pfeiffer's CV from the encyclopedias, and most of all the contradiction between the encyclopedias reporting thath he was found innocent and Wegfraß saying the commission(s) found him guilty. Like I said, as opposed to all the actual Kiekemal matter, which she quotes documents for, her conclusion that Fredersdorf got dismissed a year later because of this and died then out of grief for his lost honor comes without quotes and is her own interpretation. (She also thinks that coming after Voltaire's financial shady dealings, it no doubt heightened Fritz' cynicism about humanity to find himself thus let down by yet another friend.)
So, what do we make out of all this? The whole Trachenberg - Fredersdorf - Marschall transfers do look pre arranged and shady, but if Fredersdorf sold the lands to Frau von Marschall for the same sum he originally provided, then it looks to me that the one personal profit he made out of this was via the brewery and making the colonists buy his beer. That he told Frau von Marschall she wouldn't have to give them rent- and tax-free years was dastardly towards the colonists, but not profitable to him personally, as he no longer owned the lands in question by the time the colonists started to work on them. There's also far more documented Fredersdorf than Pfeiffer stuff, so I'm surprised she makes Pfeiffer her main villain and speculates he did all of this because he wanted to build himself a manor at the Müggelsee (he didn't) to spite the Bock family originally.
Your take?
Emmy Wegfraß says that since the contract proves the changed conditions (no tax free years, higher interest) as opposed to the original plan, the guilt of Fredersdorf is proven, and clearly Fritz' letters stop because of this.
On March 31st, 1756, the investigating commission sends its concluding report to Fritz. Now here Emmy Wegfraß writes: "Johann Pfeiffer must admit he has taken 8061 Reichstaler 3 Groschen from the King's money" - which I found confusing since the money for the original investment into Kiekemal hadn't come from the state, as she herself said, but presumably this refers to Pfeiffer taking that much salary and writing off expenses - and broken broken his oath not to buy any of the colonist's stuff (when his cousin bought lands next to the Müggelsee) .
And that's it in terms of Fredersdorf's involvement. I already remarked on the inconsistency of her dates vs the dates of Pfeiffer's CV from the encyclopedias, and most of all the contradiction between the encyclopedias reporting thath he was found innocent and Wegfraß saying the commission(s) found him guilty. Like I said, as opposed to all the actual Kiekemal matter, which she quotes documents for, her conclusion that Fredersdorf got dismissed a year later because of this and died then out of grief for his lost honor comes without quotes and is her own interpretation. (She also thinks that coming after Voltaire's financial shady dealings, it no doubt heightened Fritz' cynicism about humanity to find himself thus let down by yet another friend.)
So, what do we make out of all this? The whole Trachenberg - Fredersdorf - Marschall transfers do look pre arranged and shady, but if Fredersdorf sold the lands to Frau von Marschall for the same sum he originally provided, then it looks to me that the one personal profit he made out of this was via the brewery and making the colonists buy his beer. That he told Frau von Marschall she wouldn't have to give them rent- and tax-free years was dastardly towards the colonists, but not profitable to him personally, as he no longer owned the lands in question by the time the colonists started to work on them. There's also far more documented Fredersdorf than Pfeiffer stuff, so I'm surprised she makes Pfeiffer her main villain and speculates he did all of this because he wanted to build himself a manor at the Müggelsee (he didn't) to spite the Bock family originally.
Your take?
(She also thinks that coming after Voltaire's financial shady dealings, it no doubt heightened Fritz' cynicism about humanity to find himself thus let down by yet another friend.)
I just want to say, before I get off the computer, that I'm sure Mr. Polish Coin Dies was just devastated that he didn't get to invent shady financial dealings, but that other people had engaged in them before him. ;)
I just want to say, before I get off the computer, that I'm sure Mr. Polish Coin Dies was just devastated that he didn't get to invent shady financial dealings, but that other people had engaged in them before him. ;)
Ah, but didn’t you know Fritz was… no, I have to quote this directly. It gives you an idea of her narrative tone throughout.
“Johann Pfeiffer has not reckoned with Friedrich II being A SOLDIER KING. Officers and commoners have formed a brotherhood of death with him on the battlefield. Now it is Colonel von Ingersleben, from the noble family of the duchy Magdeburg, who reports to the King with a letter dated November 23 1754.” *
And in the “who died when” final section of the opening chapter:
“On August 17th 1786, King Friedrich II dies. He has been forced into the military life. A full treasure and a strong army were given to him as a young ruler. He has used both. Through this, he has become old and fragile. Despite his victories, his enemies did not give him peace. As a human being, he had artistic gifts. He always took care of his friends. He remained utterly incorruptible no matter who and of which rank tried. He dies in the arms of his chamber hussar. Friedrich II gets buried in the garnison church at Potsdam.”
*Of course, Pfeiffer was a soldier, too, and even took an active distinguishing-himself part in the battle of Mollwitz (Cahn, reminder, that was the first big Prussian victory against the Austrians won by Schwerin who had sent Fritz from the battlefield to Fritz’ ever lasting chargrin), and Fredersdorf used to be one, and since we’re talking Prussia after decades of FW and Fritz, you can be pretty sure all native males not, like Lehndorff, having physical impediments served as soldiers at some point. And she does write “Soldatenkönig”, Soldier King, as the ultimate accolade of our antihero. I don’t think she’s even heard of the Polish matter. Other than Fontane and the documents from the archives, her sources on Fritz as listed in the bibliography are only two books: “Der König - Lebensdokumente. Wilhelm Langewische-Brandt, München, Leipzig”, no date of publication given, and “Friedrich II - Jugendjahre, Siegried SCwanz, Edition Rieger, Karwe”, again no date of publication given. Our author herself started to go to school in the year 1932, as a quick glance at the rest of the book tells me, meaning she must have been 6 years then, which is presumably where the deep belief in soldierness as making you incorruptble comes from.
“Johann Pfeiffer has not reckoned with Friedrich II being A SOLDIER KING. Officers and commoners have formed a brotherhood of death with him on the battlefield. Now it is Colonel von Ingersleben, from the noble family of the duchy Magdeburg, who reports to the King with a letter dated November 23 1754.” *
And in the “who died when” final section of the opening chapter:
“On August 17th 1786, King Friedrich II dies. He has been forced into the military life. A full treasure and a strong army were given to him as a young ruler. He has used both. Through this, he has become old and fragile. Despite his victories, his enemies did not give him peace. As a human being, he had artistic gifts. He always took care of his friends. He remained utterly incorruptible no matter who and of which rank tried. He dies in the arms of his chamber hussar. Friedrich II gets buried in the garnison church at Potsdam.”
*Of course, Pfeiffer was a soldier, too, and even took an active distinguishing-himself part in the battle of Mollwitz (Cahn, reminder, that was the first big Prussian victory against the Austrians won by Schwerin who had sent Fritz from the battlefield to Fritz’ ever lasting chargrin), and Fredersdorf used to be one, and since we’re talking Prussia after decades of FW and Fritz, you can be pretty sure all native males not, like Lehndorff, having physical impediments served as soldiers at some point. And she does write “Soldatenkönig”, Soldier King, as the ultimate accolade of our antihero. I don’t think she’s even heard of the Polish matter. Other than Fontane and the documents from the archives, her sources on Fritz as listed in the bibliography are only two books: “Der König - Lebensdokumente. Wilhelm Langewische-Brandt, München, Leipzig”, no date of publication given, and “Friedrich II - Jugendjahre, Siegried SCwanz, Edition Rieger, Karwe”, again no date of publication given. Our author herself started to go to school in the year 1932, as a quick glance at the rest of the book tells me, meaning she must have been 6 years then, which is presumably where the deep belief in soldierness as making you incorruptble comes from.
Edited 2021-09-04 03:24 (UTC)
...so I blinked at SOLDIER KING, wow, but I was particularly pleased by "brotherhood of death"!!!! (I just feel like she should have used more exclamation points) and I will have to try to come up with reasons to use that phrase more!
Lol though to Pfeiffer also being a soldier! In Mollwitz! (and Fredersdorf of course)
(man, that narrative tone though... all hail, as always, for reading and reporting it all <3 )
Lol though to Pfeiffer also being a soldier! In Mollwitz! (and Fredersdorf of course)
(man, that narrative tone though... all hail, as always, for reading and reporting it all <3 )
(I just feel like she should have used more exclamation points)
Ha!
and I will have to try to come up with reasons to use that phrase more!
*spittake* I look forward to you using this phrase more!
(man, that narrative tone though... all hail, as always, for reading and reporting it all <3 )
This. <3 All hail Selena.
Ha!
and I will have to try to come up with reasons to use that phrase more!
*spittake* I look forward to you using this phrase more!
(man, that narrative tone though... all hail, as always, for reading and reporting it all <3 )
This. <3 All hail Selena.
Omggggg, that is really something.
Our author herself started to go to school in the year 1932, as a quick glance at the rest of the book tells me, meaning she must have been 6 years then, which is presumably where the deep belief in soldierness as making you incorruptble comes from.
Ahhhh, yes, that'll do it.
“Der König - Lebensdokumente. Wilhelm Langewische-Brandt, München, Leipzig”, no date of publication given
My best guess, based on Google books snippet view, is 1910. So yeah.
Friedrich II - Jugendjahre, Siegried SCwanz, Edition Rieger, Karwe
This one appears to be 1998, again based on snippet view.
Of course, Pfeiffer was a soldier, too, and even took an active distinguishing-himself part in the battle of Mollwitz</cite. Funnily, I was reading half a dozen biographical dictionaries last night, and nearly every one had "Distinguished himself at the battle of Mollwitz in 1741" near the very beginning of the entry, so I had that pretty well drummed into my head!
Our author herself started to go to school in the year 1932, as a quick glance at the rest of the book tells me, meaning she must have been 6 years then, which is presumably where the deep belief in soldierness as making you incorruptble comes from.
Ahhhh, yes, that'll do it.
“Der König - Lebensdokumente. Wilhelm Langewische-Brandt, München, Leipzig”, no date of publication given
My best guess, based on Google books snippet view, is 1910. So yeah.
Friedrich II - Jugendjahre, Siegried SCwanz, Edition Rieger, Karwe
This one appears to be 1998, again based on snippet view.
Of course, Pfeiffer was a soldier, too, and even took an active distinguishing-himself part in the battle of Mollwitz</cite. Funnily, I was reading half a dozen biographical dictionaries last night, and nearly every one had "Distinguished himself at the battle of Mollwitz in 1741" near the very beginning of the entry, so I had that pretty well drummed into my head!
This is amaaaaazing! I am really pleased to have helped enable this whole thing :D
Yeah, I agree the whole Trachenberg-Fredersdorf-Marschall thing looks a bit shady, but it sounds rather more like Fredersdorf was doing (trying to do) one or both of them a favor that kind of went sideways, rather than getting involved in underhanded deals-for-profit.
Personally, I consider Fredersdorf exonerated from the specific charge of embezzlement-that-made-Fritz-fire-him-and-him-die-in-dishonor and I am pleased about this :D But that's an interesting... fantasy she dreamed up :P
Yeah, I agree the whole Trachenberg-Fredersdorf-Marschall thing looks a bit shady, but it sounds rather more like Fredersdorf was doing (trying to do) one or both of them a favor that kind of went sideways, rather than getting involved in underhanded deals-for-profit.
Personally, I consider Fredersdorf exonerated from the specific charge of embezzlement-that-made-Fritz-fire-him-and-him-die-in-dishonor and I am pleased about this :D But that's an interesting... fantasy she dreamed up :P
Emmy Wegfraß says that since the contract proves the changed conditions (no tax free years, higher interest) as opposed to the original plan, the guilt of Fredersdorf is proven, and clearly Fritz' letters stop because of this.
That's...that's not how criminal justice or historiography work.
I agree he shouldn't have changed the terms without also clearly changing the advertisement. Did he benefit personally? It appears not. Did he do it intentionally so someone else could benefit? Did he get an undocumented, under-the-table cut in the profits? Or did he think that he had advertised the change in terms clearly? In short, if I were sitting on a jury, I would have to ask, "What were his reasons for making this change?" and the answer is, "We don't know."
And as for Fredersdorf getting dismissed over this, she's presented no evidence, and we in salon have a good deal of counterevidence. So I think that claim can be conclusively refuted (although I still wish we had a source for April 9th, I doubt whatever it is is clear-cut enough to count as evidence).
In conclusion, this volume answers most of the questions Wikipedia had left me with, and it's the missing piece we needed if we want to assert that Fredersdorf was not dismissed for dishonesty, irrespective of whether he behaved in an entirely aboveboard manner in this affair.
And in conclusion, salon alchemy rocks. :D
That's...that's not how criminal justice or historiography work.
I agree he shouldn't have changed the terms without also clearly changing the advertisement. Did he benefit personally? It appears not. Did he do it intentionally so someone else could benefit? Did he get an undocumented, under-the-table cut in the profits? Or did he think that he had advertised the change in terms clearly? In short, if I were sitting on a jury, I would have to ask, "What were his reasons for making this change?" and the answer is, "We don't know."
And as for Fredersdorf getting dismissed over this, she's presented no evidence, and we in salon have a good deal of counterevidence. So I think that claim can be conclusively refuted (although I still wish we had a source for April 9th, I doubt whatever it is is clear-cut enough to count as evidence).
In conclusion, this volume answers most of the questions Wikipedia had left me with, and it's the missing piece we needed if we want to assert that Fredersdorf was not dismissed for dishonesty, irrespective of whether he behaved in an entirely aboveboard manner in this affair.
And in conclusion, salon alchemy rocks. :D
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