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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 24
Every post I can't believe this is still going on, and yet, here we are :D
Wow, you all have been busy overnight! Okay, addressing one subject at a time.
Wow, that really was an almost-duel! Now I can't help but wonder what would have happened if they'd actually gone through with it and one of them (*cough*presumably FW) had managed to kill the other!
For starters: who kills who really depends on the method of duelling. We tend to automatically think "pistols", but swords are still a viable alternative, see Hervey fighting his duel with swords, and of course the chances of both parties surviving generally is higher then. However, in the particular case of FW vs G2, swords would have been a death sentence (or at least a humiliating defeat sentence) for FW, given his weight and shape (even if not just sick). I'm not sure how heavy G2 ws in the late 1720s, but neither Hervey nor anyone else mentions constant illnesses, which FW definitely had. So presumably even FW would have had enough sense to go for pistols, at which they'd have been evenly matched. In which case it's 50/50, and either King could have died (or be severely wounded). As to what had happened, let's see.
G2 DIES
Does England declare war against Prussia? Nope. Enough witnesses around to testify it was an honorable duel. Also, new King Frederick I, aka former Fritz of Wales, more likely to send thank you bouqet to FW.
Do the English marriages happen for Fritz and Wilhelmine? Hell no, is my first thought, though on second thought SD could try to spin this as a reconciliation project to FW and try to guilt trip him into agreeing to push it. Otoh, the Brits were never keen on the match in the first place, and now they really have no reason.
Does the 1730 escape attempt therefore still happen? I think so, yes.
What about Hannover family dysfunction?: Well, in the late 20s it wasn't as bad yet as it would become, but Fritz of Wales would still have been long enough around his family to notice no one wanted him, everyone wanted little brother Billy the Butcher, and even if there's now a complete turnaround once he's on the throne, I doubt mother Caroline will ever gain much influence on him. Unless she's really really convincing. Otoh, late 20s is when he's just become friendly with Hervey and they're nearing Orestes/Pylades territory. Therefore, I guess Hervey gets his wish and becomes mentor to the new King, with a nice cabinet office to go with it, and Caroline can say goodbye to her Vice Chamberlain. (He did like and respect Caroline, but not enough to give up a shot at the top for her sake.)
FW DIES
Does Prussia declare war on England? No, see above. Honorable duel. Also secret thank you boquet from SD. And massive attempt to guilt trip G2 into offering his two kids to her two kids now.
Do the English marriages happen for Fritz and Wilhelmine?: Definitely can see that. Not least because MT's Dad Charles might send a "two of my Electors killing each other, WTF? Make sure the new kid on the block won't continue the feud against you, G2!" reprimand. As to whether these marriages will be happy, err. For Fritz, mayyyyyyybe better, because Emily/Amalie of England was brainy, well educated, sharp tongued. Otoh, given SD would have resented any sign of the new Queen getting more respect than she did, and Emily/Amalie would not have been nearly as shy as EC and would not have taken any humiliating silently... For Wilhelmine, see below.
What about Hannover family dysfunction? That stays the same. And because Fritz is the new King in/of Prussia, he's not around to support Wilhelmine. Which means that she still has to deal with in-laws that hate on her new husband, imply that she's faking her first pregnancy, and her husband trying to get her elswhere during labor.
Wow, that really was an almost-duel! Now I can't help but wonder what would have happened if they'd actually gone through with it and one of them (*cough*presumably FW) had managed to kill the other!
For starters: who kills who really depends on the method of duelling. We tend to automatically think "pistols", but swords are still a viable alternative, see Hervey fighting his duel with swords, and of course the chances of both parties surviving generally is higher then. However, in the particular case of FW vs G2, swords would have been a death sentence (or at least a humiliating defeat sentence) for FW, given his weight and shape (even if not just sick). I'm not sure how heavy G2 ws in the late 1720s, but neither Hervey nor anyone else mentions constant illnesses, which FW definitely had. So presumably even FW would have had enough sense to go for pistols, at which they'd have been evenly matched. In which case it's 50/50, and either King could have died (or be severely wounded). As to what had happened, let's see.
G2 DIES
Does England declare war against Prussia? Nope. Enough witnesses around to testify it was an honorable duel. Also, new King Frederick I, aka former Fritz of Wales, more likely to send thank you bouqet to FW.
Do the English marriages happen for Fritz and Wilhelmine? Hell no, is my first thought, though on second thought SD could try to spin this as a reconciliation project to FW and try to guilt trip him into agreeing to push it. Otoh, the Brits were never keen on the match in the first place, and now they really have no reason.
Does the 1730 escape attempt therefore still happen? I think so, yes.
What about Hannover family dysfunction?: Well, in the late 20s it wasn't as bad yet as it would become, but Fritz of Wales would still have been long enough around his family to notice no one wanted him, everyone wanted little brother Billy the Butcher, and even if there's now a complete turnaround once he's on the throne, I doubt mother Caroline will ever gain much influence on him. Unless she's really really convincing. Otoh, late 20s is when he's just become friendly with Hervey and they're nearing Orestes/Pylades territory. Therefore, I guess Hervey gets his wish and becomes mentor to the new King, with a nice cabinet office to go with it, and Caroline can say goodbye to her Vice Chamberlain. (He did like and respect Caroline, but not enough to give up a shot at the top for her sake.)
FW DIES
Does Prussia declare war on England? No, see above. Honorable duel. Also secret thank you boquet from SD. And massive attempt to guilt trip G2 into offering his two kids to her two kids now.
Do the English marriages happen for Fritz and Wilhelmine?: Definitely can see that. Not least because MT's Dad Charles might send a "two of my Electors killing each other, WTF? Make sure the new kid on the block won't continue the feud against you, G2!" reprimand. As to whether these marriages will be happy, err. For Fritz, mayyyyyyybe better, because Emily/Amalie of England was brainy, well educated, sharp tongued. Otoh, given SD would have resented any sign of the new Queen getting more respect than she did, and Emily/Amalie would not have been nearly as shy as EC and would not have taken any humiliating silently... For Wilhelmine, see below.
What about Hannover family dysfunction? That stays the same. And because Fritz is the new King in/of Prussia, he's not around to support Wilhelmine. Which means that she still has to deal with in-laws that hate on her new husband, imply that she's faking her first pregnancy, and her husband trying to get her elswhere during labor.
Edited 2021-02-21 12:01 (UTC)
I feel like I will forever find hilarious that Fritz/Voltaire had this crackship going that NO ONE understands :D
Same here. And it's really a universal reaction, no matter whether it's Mitchell in his 7 Years War reports or modern biographers. I think people can just about understand their mutual motives until the big breakup in 1753. It's the fact they then went back to writing each other that slays everyone.
Not gonna lie, I had Voltaire on the brain when I wrote this! He went to Mass any number of times.
So he did, and even built a church. ("To God, from Voltaire", wasn't that the dedication?) And let's not forgot the "I'm sorry if you're insulted" repentenance document to penned on his deathbed (which was accepted by the first priest to have a go at him but not by the indignant Archbishop of Paris).
Same. No matter whether the phrase comes from New Brunswick Ambassador, Wartensleben or Manteuffel himself, it's well put, well put indeed. :)
That's why part of me wants it to have originated with Voltaire! Lol.
On the one hand: this is like later 19th century historians deciding unilaterally that the "she cried, but she took" etc. crack about MT and the first Partitioning of Poland was too good to hail from some minor figur and had to come from Fritz, and nearly every biographer until this day following suit.
On the other hand:
Not very scientific, I know! But...Wartensleben overhears it in Cleves, conveys it in his report via super-fast courier to Manteuffel, Manteuffel is Anonymous after all? :P
Sold! Especially since I very much doubt that Voltaire reads anonymous reports sent from Mantteuffel (whoever wrote it) to Brühl and thereafter lingering in the Saxon State Archive. (If you want an argument against Voltaire picking up the bonmot from someone else.)
Same here. And it's really a universal reaction, no matter whether it's Mitchell in his 7 Years War reports or modern biographers. I think people can just about understand their mutual motives until the big breakup in 1753. It's the fact they then went back to writing each other that slays everyone.
Not gonna lie, I had Voltaire on the brain when I wrote this! He went to Mass any number of times.
So he did, and even built a church. ("To God, from Voltaire", wasn't that the dedication?) And let's not forgot the "I'm sorry if you're insulted" repentenance document to penned on his deathbed (which was accepted by the first priest to have a go at him but not by the indignant Archbishop of Paris).
Same. No matter whether the phrase comes from New Brunswick Ambassador, Wartensleben or Manteuffel himself, it's well put, well put indeed. :)
That's why part of me wants it to have originated with Voltaire! Lol.
On the one hand: this is like later 19th century historians deciding unilaterally that the "she cried, but she took" etc. crack about MT and the first Partitioning of Poland was too good to hail from some minor figur and had to come from Fritz, and nearly every biographer until this day following suit.
On the other hand:
Not very scientific, I know! But...Wartensleben overhears it in Cleves, conveys it in his report via super-fast courier to Manteuffel, Manteuffel is Anonymous after all? :P
Sold! Especially since I very much doubt that Voltaire reads anonymous reports sent from Mantteuffel (whoever wrote it) to Brühl and thereafter lingering in the Saxon State Archive. (If you want an argument against Voltaire picking up the bonmot from someone else.)
First of all, ![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
felis, fantastic discovery about SD being secretly in contact with her mother after all! I'm now mentally revising my picture entirely on that front. Also, what you quote:
I believe my brother will be touched anyway, he loved her and everything that is happening can't please him.
Settles the question Victorian editor of Hervey's memoirs John Crocker raised, as to whether Walpole was right about G2 loving his mother, and whether him not speaking of her signals the depth or the lack of feeling.
Mind you, in any case it's fairly evident that what happened to their mother impacted both SD and G2 - both children when it did - and influenced their own family dysfunctionality later.
By the way, I had no idea that GI visited Berlin in 1725!
This, I did know, as it's a fairly prominent sequence in the 1980s tv two parter Der Thronfolger, which was on Youtube a year ago (but no longer, alas, copyright struck, I guess). It also comes up in Der Vater, and, of course, in Wilhelmine's memoirs.
Fique apparently what she called herself/he called her? And he got nicknamed "Wilke", in case you didn't/needed to know.
We did know, though the usual (current) spelling is "Fieke" (which was then a popular nickname for Sophie in Brandenburg; I've read a novel in which Heinrich actually uses it for Catherine (the Great), even, in the sole scene from his pov of the novel); it also comes up in one of Stratemann's reports: In the entry on March 4th 1730 (one more month to go in SD's last pregnancy), FW tells his "Fieke" that God has given her to him for 24 yers now, he wants to keep her, God can do to the baby whatever he wants as long as he lets FW keep SD.
(Ferdinand: not getting any respect even before he's born. Although that's actually a touching statementby FW.)
Thank you also for linking Droysen and the letter excerpts. Some were known to me from Uwe Oster's Wilhelmine biography, but most were not. Also, your link even has a facsimile of the first letter Wilhelmine wrote to FW, at age 4! BTW, since we've heard a lot about what Grumbkow & Seckendorf weren't to blame for - the marriage to a Habsburg idea - here's something they were definitely to blame for: feeding into FW's paranoia, including the infidelity suspicion, in order to get him against the English marriage project.
„You can be assured that I will not say anything and will not tell him that you wrote to me; if he knew that you hate him and wish him death, he would be in despair and it would kill him. He is already too ill. God take the thoughts you have against him, and you govern your heart. I believe you wrote to me against him out of malice, to see what I will answer you.
He probably did, and yes, that's absolutely a heartbreaking quote. Bear in mind that while SD writes this in 1728, Stratemann doggedly describes a perfectly happy Prussian Royal Family with Disney Dad!
felis, fantastic discovery about SD being secretly in contact with her mother after all! I'm now mentally revising my picture entirely on that front. Also, what you quote: I believe my brother will be touched anyway, he loved her and everything that is happening can't please him.
Settles the question Victorian editor of Hervey's memoirs John Crocker raised, as to whether Walpole was right about G2 loving his mother, and whether him not speaking of her signals the depth or the lack of feeling.
Mind you, in any case it's fairly evident that what happened to their mother impacted both SD and G2 - both children when it did - and influenced their own family dysfunctionality later.
By the way, I had no idea that GI visited Berlin in 1725!
This, I did know, as it's a fairly prominent sequence in the 1980s tv two parter Der Thronfolger, which was on Youtube a year ago (but no longer, alas, copyright struck, I guess). It also comes up in Der Vater, and, of course, in Wilhelmine's memoirs.
Fique apparently what she called herself/he called her? And he got nicknamed "Wilke", in case you didn't/needed to know.
We did know, though the usual (current) spelling is "Fieke" (which was then a popular nickname for Sophie in Brandenburg; I've read a novel in which Heinrich actually uses it for Catherine (the Great), even, in the sole scene from his pov of the novel); it also comes up in one of Stratemann's reports: In the entry on March 4th 1730 (one more month to go in SD's last pregnancy), FW tells his "Fieke" that God has given her to him for 24 yers now, he wants to keep her, God can do to the baby whatever he wants as long as he lets FW keep SD.
(Ferdinand: not getting any respect even before he's born. Although that's actually a touching statementby FW.)
Thank you also for linking Droysen and the letter excerpts. Some were known to me from Uwe Oster's Wilhelmine biography, but most were not. Also, your link even has a facsimile of the first letter Wilhelmine wrote to FW, at age 4! BTW, since we've heard a lot about what Grumbkow & Seckendorf weren't to blame for - the marriage to a Habsburg idea - here's something they were definitely to blame for: feeding into FW's paranoia, including the infidelity suspicion, in order to get him against the English marriage project.
„You can be assured that I will not say anything and will not tell him that you wrote to me; if he knew that you hate him and wish him death, he would be in despair and it would kill him. He is already too ill. God take the thoughts you have against him, and you govern your heart. I believe you wrote to me against him out of malice, to see what I will answer you.
He probably did, and yes, that's absolutely a heartbreaking quote. Bear in mind that while SD writes this in 1728, Stratemann doggedly describes a perfectly happy Prussian Royal Family with Disney Dad!
So Wilhelmine's Mom-killing opera Semiramis was staged for SD's birthday. Who made that decision? Fritz? Was Amalie present for it? I checked and it was March 1754
Lehndorff's diary entry from March 27th 1754 describes the opera staging and other birthday celebrations for SD, but doesn't say whose idea the production of this particular opera was, just that Lehndorff doesn't think it's a good subject ("Der Stoff ist für einen Geburtstag wenig geeignet"). This entry is in volume 1; I did check volume 2, the cut bits, just in case there's more on the subject, but no, there isn't. (Not least because Lehndorff is through the entire month in one of his relationship downs with Heinrich, and then, having made up, they have a last stroll through the Tiergarten on March 28th, before Heinrich's regular departure for Potsdam ("with the greatest pain, I take my leave of the Prince. His stay in Potsdam is always fatal to me. I have just cause to grieve. This is the world's curse"). This means his attention is, shall we say, divided.
Was 1753 her last visit to Berlin?
I think so, yes. I can't recall mention of a later visit, at least.
How long would the royal family wear mourning for a monarch?
Argh. I honestly don't know. Today's royals wear mourning from the day of death till the day of the funeral, google tells me, but I bet it was longer in the 18th century. Lehndorff mentions the court having to wear mourning repeatedly, including, as I mentioned in my original Lehndorff write up, when Isabella dies, which she does on November 27th 1763, and if they wear morning for not even a reigning Empress Consort but the wife of MT's oldest (not yet crowned) son in the year where the 7 Years War has ended, I'm pretty sure mourning for a reigning monarch is far more elaborate. BTW, I checked that entry again, which is in volume 2 as it was cut in the original volume, and there's a hint about the dates. Because Lehndorff mentions that no sooner has the court finished wearing mourning for Isabella that they have to wear mourning for the Prince Elector of Saxony. This wasn't August III., who had died earlier that year, but his son Friedrich Christian, who never became King of Poland and thus was "only" Prince Elector of Saxony, dying in the same year as his father, in Deecember 17th. So mourning for Isabella was between November 27th and December 17th, and then it's mourning for Friedrich Cristian (head of an enemy state in the recent war). The quote:
Wir tragen Trauer für die junge Erzherzogin. Diese an der Seite eines jungen und liebenswürdigen Gemahls so glückliche Frau, die eines Tages mehrere Kronen zu erwarten hatte und eben im Begriff stand. zur römischen Königin gekrönt zu werden, ist an den Blattern im Alter von 22 Jahren gestorben. Kaum haben wir diese Trauer abgelegt, als wir für den Kurfürsten von Sachsen von neuem Trauer anlegen müssen. Nur sechs Wochen sind feiner Regierung, die sein Volk glücklich zu machen begann, beschieden gewesen.Er starb gleichfalls an den Blattern. Sic transit gloria mundi!
Alas this doesn't tell you how long they wear mourning for their own monarch, of course. Lehndorff wasn't at court yet but a child when FW died, and his diaries from 1786 are a victim of WWII, so he can't tell us how long Prussia wore mourning for Fritz, either.
Do we know the names of any of Wilhelmine's dogs other than Folichon?
I dimly recall at least one other dog mentioned by name in either Oster or in one of the correspondences, but it would take way longer to look it up than I have currently time available.
Lehndorff's diary entry from March 27th 1754 describes the opera staging and other birthday celebrations for SD, but doesn't say whose idea the production of this particular opera was, just that Lehndorff doesn't think it's a good subject ("Der Stoff ist für einen Geburtstag wenig geeignet"). This entry is in volume 1; I did check volume 2, the cut bits, just in case there's more on the subject, but no, there isn't. (Not least because Lehndorff is through the entire month in one of his relationship downs with Heinrich, and then, having made up, they have a last stroll through the Tiergarten on March 28th, before Heinrich's regular departure for Potsdam ("with the greatest pain, I take my leave of the Prince. His stay in Potsdam is always fatal to me. I have just cause to grieve. This is the world's curse"). This means his attention is, shall we say, divided.
Was 1753 her last visit to Berlin?
I think so, yes. I can't recall mention of a later visit, at least.
How long would the royal family wear mourning for a monarch?
Argh. I honestly don't know. Today's royals wear mourning from the day of death till the day of the funeral, google tells me, but I bet it was longer in the 18th century. Lehndorff mentions the court having to wear mourning repeatedly, including, as I mentioned in my original Lehndorff write up, when Isabella dies, which she does on November 27th 1763, and if they wear morning for not even a reigning Empress Consort but the wife of MT's oldest (not yet crowned) son in the year where the 7 Years War has ended, I'm pretty sure mourning for a reigning monarch is far more elaborate. BTW, I checked that entry again, which is in volume 2 as it was cut in the original volume, and there's a hint about the dates. Because Lehndorff mentions that no sooner has the court finished wearing mourning for Isabella that they have to wear mourning for the Prince Elector of Saxony. This wasn't August III., who had died earlier that year, but his son Friedrich Christian, who never became King of Poland and thus was "only" Prince Elector of Saxony, dying in the same year as his father, in Deecember 17th. So mourning for Isabella was between November 27th and December 17th, and then it's mourning for Friedrich Cristian (head of an enemy state in the recent war). The quote:
Wir tragen Trauer für die junge Erzherzogin. Diese an der Seite eines jungen und liebenswürdigen Gemahls so glückliche Frau, die eines Tages mehrere Kronen zu erwarten hatte und eben im Begriff stand. zur römischen Königin gekrönt zu werden, ist an den Blattern im Alter von 22 Jahren gestorben. Kaum haben wir diese Trauer abgelegt, als wir für den Kurfürsten von Sachsen von neuem Trauer anlegen müssen. Nur sechs Wochen sind feiner Regierung, die sein Volk glücklich zu machen begann, beschieden gewesen.Er starb gleichfalls an den Blattern. Sic transit gloria mundi!
Alas this doesn't tell you how long they wear mourning for their own monarch, of course. Lehndorff wasn't at court yet but a child when FW died, and his diaries from 1786 are a victim of WWII, so he can't tell us how long Prussia wore mourning for Fritz, either.
Do we know the names of any of Wilhelmine's dogs other than Folichon?
I dimly recall at least one other dog mentioned by name in either Oster or in one of the correspondences, but it would take way longer to look it up than I have currently time available.
I guess that admiring and seeking advice from a Catholic is cool even if personally converting to Catholicism is worse than 18 years of paternal abuse? Idk. (And obviously it was England, not Spain, that Katte thought about settling down in.)
Not a big contradiction there. Just think of everyone, from Grandma Sophie Charlotte to Fritz to Leopold Mozart through the 18th century fangirling and fanboying Fénelon's bestseller on how to be a good prince and good young man in general. Only Leopold was a Catholic, the others were all Protestants raised, while Fénelon wasn't just a Catholic, he was a member of the clergy. And of course arch Protestant FW enjoyed his drinking bouts with pragmatic Catholic August. Befriending people who happen to be Catholics is a very different issue from converting, let alone being forced to convert against your convictions, which is what Katte believes to be on the menu for Fritz. And even leaving the strength of his own faith or lack of same completely aside, Katte would have several good reasons to regard such a scheme as a disaster for his friend:
1.) It would deepen the gulf between him and his father and likely cost him the succession.
2.) Even if it doesn't (because a succession change would need imperial approval), and Fritz does become King of Prussia, he'd have a majority of his own subjects set against him. For recent illustrations, see what happened when the Prince of Hesse-Kassel converted from Protestant to Catholic. And of course the Saxons had been anything but thrilled when August did in order to get the Polish crown. When the Duke of Würtemberg, Karl Alexander, converterd to Catholicism after marrying Catholic Marie-Auguste, this was part of a major state crisis in deeply Protestant Würtemberg which didn't get resolved until Karl Alexander's death. Flash forward: when there's a rumor that Wihelmine's son-in-law, Carl Eugen, Karl Alexander's son, will also secretly convert and make her daughter convert, Fritz immediately writes that this would be a terrible idea because all her daughter has after her husband's passion has gone is populariy with her Protestant subjects and she'd lose that if she converts.
And now I have to assume that Fritz lied, presumably because he was getting resistance from Katte on escaping, and Katte's religious fervor at the end was not only sincere but based on strong feelings before that fact.
Now, we know Fritz converting was never an issue. But Katte doesn't know this in 1730, because Fritz is a really good liar, and he doesn't even have to be a hardcore Protestant, but a good friend to Fritz, to find this prospect deeply alarming, if it's any consolation to you. (Also, as to why he finds this more alarming and a better reason for immediate flight than 18 yeas of abuse: betting on FW's early death isn't unreasonable. In 1729, FW was so seriously ill that he wrote to his friend Old Dessauer that he'd prefer dying than enduring this pain any longer. So I can see Katte reasoning that if Fritz endures just a year or so longer, it will all be over. Otoh, if Fritz converts and marries a Habsburg, the political damage from this is permanent, see above, and the spiritual damage likewise, if this is important in any way for Katte.
This said, Katte's reaction to such an idea in combination to his letters to his father and his interactions with the preachers before his death do point to Katte taking his Protestant faith seriously, or at least being hard enough imprinted on it to fall back on it when faced with the prospect of his impending death. But if you want more arguments for Katte being at least a relaxed Protestant with doubts before November 1730, well, here's another example of a childhood imprint of "this faith is vile" surviving far beyond believing in the other faith: good old Voltaire. As Orieux points out, his initial reaction when hearing about the Calas affair, in the version most people outside Toulouse did (to wit: Protestant father kills his son rather than let the poor boy convert to Catholicism), is: "Wow, go figure that Protestant bigots are still worse than Catholic bigots. As can also be seen by the fact Protestant fundies are anti theatre!" (The last never fails to crack me up.)
It also suggests that the reason Fritz couldn't come up with a clever answer when put on the spot at the trial was that he wasn't expecting this lie to come back and bite him. He may have blurted it out to Katte and forgotten he even said it?
Very likely. It wasn't one of his real reasons,and so he forgot about it once it had worked. That Katte, otoh, did remember, and brought it up on his own initiative, shows he took it very seriously.
Here's another aspect, though: how did Fritz feel when discovering that his lie had had such an impact on Katte (especially in combination with receiving the Punctae later)? Might this cause some hastily repressed resentment that later shows itself in the remark to Grumbkow re: Katte?
Not a big contradiction there. Just think of everyone, from Grandma Sophie Charlotte to Fritz to Leopold Mozart through the 18th century fangirling and fanboying Fénelon's bestseller on how to be a good prince and good young man in general. Only Leopold was a Catholic, the others were all Protestants raised, while Fénelon wasn't just a Catholic, he was a member of the clergy. And of course arch Protestant FW enjoyed his drinking bouts with pragmatic Catholic August. Befriending people who happen to be Catholics is a very different issue from converting, let alone being forced to convert against your convictions, which is what Katte believes to be on the menu for Fritz. And even leaving the strength of his own faith or lack of same completely aside, Katte would have several good reasons to regard such a scheme as a disaster for his friend:
1.) It would deepen the gulf between him and his father and likely cost him the succession.
2.) Even if it doesn't (because a succession change would need imperial approval), and Fritz does become King of Prussia, he'd have a majority of his own subjects set against him. For recent illustrations, see what happened when the Prince of Hesse-Kassel converted from Protestant to Catholic. And of course the Saxons had been anything but thrilled when August did in order to get the Polish crown. When the Duke of Würtemberg, Karl Alexander, converterd to Catholicism after marrying Catholic Marie-Auguste, this was part of a major state crisis in deeply Protestant Würtemberg which didn't get resolved until Karl Alexander's death. Flash forward: when there's a rumor that Wihelmine's son-in-law, Carl Eugen, Karl Alexander's son, will also secretly convert and make her daughter convert, Fritz immediately writes that this would be a terrible idea because all her daughter has after her husband's passion has gone is populariy with her Protestant subjects and she'd lose that if she converts.
And now I have to assume that Fritz lied, presumably because he was getting resistance from Katte on escaping, and Katte's religious fervor at the end was not only sincere but based on strong feelings before that fact.
Now, we know Fritz converting was never an issue. But Katte doesn't know this in 1730, because Fritz is a really good liar, and he doesn't even have to be a hardcore Protestant, but a good friend to Fritz, to find this prospect deeply alarming, if it's any consolation to you. (Also, as to why he finds this more alarming and a better reason for immediate flight than 18 yeas of abuse: betting on FW's early death isn't unreasonable. In 1729, FW was so seriously ill that he wrote to his friend Old Dessauer that he'd prefer dying than enduring this pain any longer. So I can see Katte reasoning that if Fritz endures just a year or so longer, it will all be over. Otoh, if Fritz converts and marries a Habsburg, the political damage from this is permanent, see above, and the spiritual damage likewise, if this is important in any way for Katte.
This said, Katte's reaction to such an idea in combination to his letters to his father and his interactions with the preachers before his death do point to Katte taking his Protestant faith seriously, or at least being hard enough imprinted on it to fall back on it when faced with the prospect of his impending death. But if you want more arguments for Katte being at least a relaxed Protestant with doubts before November 1730, well, here's another example of a childhood imprint of "this faith is vile" surviving far beyond believing in the other faith: good old Voltaire. As Orieux points out, his initial reaction when hearing about the Calas affair, in the version most people outside Toulouse did (to wit: Protestant father kills his son rather than let the poor boy convert to Catholicism), is: "Wow, go figure that Protestant bigots are still worse than Catholic bigots. As can also be seen by the fact Protestant fundies are anti theatre!" (The last never fails to crack me up.)
It also suggests that the reason Fritz couldn't come up with a clever answer when put on the spot at the trial was that he wasn't expecting this lie to come back and bite him. He may have blurted it out to Katte and forgotten he even said it?
Very likely. It wasn't one of his real reasons,and so he forgot about it once it had worked. That Katte, otoh, did remember, and brought it up on his own initiative, shows he took it very seriously.
Here's another aspect, though: how did Fritz feel when discovering that his lie had had such an impact on Katte (especially in combination with receiving the Punctae later)? Might this cause some hastily repressed resentment that later shows itself in the remark to Grumbkow re: Katte?
Edited 2021-02-21 10:02 (UTC)
Lastly: re: Philip V. of Spain: cahn,also famously the monarch so into the famous castrato singer Farinelli's voice that he made him his musical therapist, or, to quote wiki:
Apparently intending to make only a brief visit to the Continent, Farinelli called at Paris on his way to Madrid, singing on 9 July at Versailles to King Louis XV, who gave him his portrait set in diamonds, and 500 louis d'or. On 15 July he left for Spain, arriving about a month later. Elisabetta Farnese, the Queen, had come to believe that Farinelli's voice might be able to cure the severe depression of her husband, King Philip V (some contemporary physicians, such as the Queen's doctor Giuseppe Cervi, believed in the efficacy of music therapy). On 25 August 1737, Farinelli was named chamber musician to the king, and criado familiar, or servant to the royal family. He never sang again in public.
Farinelli became a royal favourite and very influential at court. For the remaining nine years of Philip's life, Farinelli gave nightly private concerts to the royal couple. He also sang for other members of the royal family and organised private performances by them, and by professional musicians in the royal palaces. In 1738 he arranged for an entire Italian opera company to visit Madrid, beginning a fashion for opera seria in the Spanish capital. The Coliseo of the royal palace of Buen Retiro was remodelled, and became Madrid's only opera house.
On the accession of Philip's son, Ferdinand VI, Farinelli's influence became even greater. Ferdinand was a keen musician, and his wife, Barbara of Portugal, more or less a musical fanatic (in 1728 she had appointed Domenico Scarlatti as her harpsichord teacher; the musicologist Ralph Kirkpatrick acknowledges Farinelli's correspondence as providing "most of the direct information about Scarlatti that has transmitted itself to our day"). The relationship between singer and monarchs was personally close: he and the queen sang duets together, and the king accompanied them on the harpsichord. Farinelli took charge of all spectacles and court entertainments. He was himself also officially received into the ranks of the nobility, being made a Knight of the Order of Calatrava in 1750, an honour of which he was enormously proud. Although much courted by diplomats, Farinelli seems to have kept out of politics.
Talk about a second career!
I was thinking about Mitchell and Algarotti being lovers, and Mitchell putting up his glamorous Italian lover for sponsorship. :D
Oh, I was thinking about that as well. Especially since when Mitchell and Algarotti met, Mitchell was just another Brit (Scot, to be precise) touring Italy, no one of influence (though clearly someone with enough money to stay abroad for years), with no position at all (having left Scotland at age 18). So in this case, a connection Algarotti made without knowing it would give him anything in terms of professional benefits. Then they reconnected during Algarotti's first visit to England when he was staying at Mitchell's before becoming involved with Hervey and Lady Mary. However, clearly they enjoyed each other enormously, given Algarotti years later, after he's already member of the Royal Society (i.e. Mitchell has done what he can) and is now mainly sponsored by Lord Hervey when in England, writes the "you shall be the tastiest dish at our supper" letter. (Which he did when returning from Russia for his as it turned out final trip to England). (BTW, the reason why Algarotti was visiting Russia as part of the British delegation was the wedding of Annna Leopoldowna to EC's brother which would result in all those doomed children and tragedy all around.)
...I still like Mildred's idea that when Fritz shows Mitchell his poetry in the 7 Years War, Mitchell offers to beta that Algarotti orgasm poem for verisimilitude. :)
cahn,also famously the monarch so into the famous castrato singer Farinelli's voice that he made him his musical therapist, or, to quote wiki: Apparently intending to make only a brief visit to the Continent, Farinelli called at Paris on his way to Madrid, singing on 9 July at Versailles to King Louis XV, who gave him his portrait set in diamonds, and 500 louis d'or. On 15 July he left for Spain, arriving about a month later. Elisabetta Farnese, the Queen, had come to believe that Farinelli's voice might be able to cure the severe depression of her husband, King Philip V (some contemporary physicians, such as the Queen's doctor Giuseppe Cervi, believed in the efficacy of music therapy). On 25 August 1737, Farinelli was named chamber musician to the king, and criado familiar, or servant to the royal family. He never sang again in public.
Farinelli became a royal favourite and very influential at court. For the remaining nine years of Philip's life, Farinelli gave nightly private concerts to the royal couple. He also sang for other members of the royal family and organised private performances by them, and by professional musicians in the royal palaces. In 1738 he arranged for an entire Italian opera company to visit Madrid, beginning a fashion for opera seria in the Spanish capital. The Coliseo of the royal palace of Buen Retiro was remodelled, and became Madrid's only opera house.
On the accession of Philip's son, Ferdinand VI, Farinelli's influence became even greater. Ferdinand was a keen musician, and his wife, Barbara of Portugal, more or less a musical fanatic (in 1728 she had appointed Domenico Scarlatti as her harpsichord teacher; the musicologist Ralph Kirkpatrick acknowledges Farinelli's correspondence as providing "most of the direct information about Scarlatti that has transmitted itself to our day"). The relationship between singer and monarchs was personally close: he and the queen sang duets together, and the king accompanied them on the harpsichord. Farinelli took charge of all spectacles and court entertainments. He was himself also officially received into the ranks of the nobility, being made a Knight of the Order of Calatrava in 1750, an honour of which he was enormously proud. Although much courted by diplomats, Farinelli seems to have kept out of politics.
Talk about a second career!
I was thinking about Mitchell and Algarotti being lovers, and Mitchell putting up his glamorous Italian lover for sponsorship. :D
Oh, I was thinking about that as well. Especially since when Mitchell and Algarotti met, Mitchell was just another Brit (Scot, to be precise) touring Italy, no one of influence (though clearly someone with enough money to stay abroad for years), with no position at all (having left Scotland at age 18). So in this case, a connection Algarotti made without knowing it would give him anything in terms of professional benefits. Then they reconnected during Algarotti's first visit to England when he was staying at Mitchell's before becoming involved with Hervey and Lady Mary. However, clearly they enjoyed each other enormously, given Algarotti years later, after he's already member of the Royal Society (i.e. Mitchell has done what he can) and is now mainly sponsored by Lord Hervey when in England, writes the "you shall be the tastiest dish at our supper" letter. (Which he did when returning from Russia for his as it turned out final trip to England). (BTW, the reason why Algarotti was visiting Russia as part of the British delegation was the wedding of Annna Leopoldowna to EC's brother which would result in all those doomed children and tragedy all around.)
...I still like Mildred's idea that when Fritz shows Mitchell his poetry in the 7 Years War, Mitchell offers to beta that Algarotti orgasm poem for verisimilitude. :)
It's the fact they then went back to writing each other that slays everyone.
"Everyone" needs to read more fanfic. Because my reaction was: "Of course they did!" ;D
"To God, from Voltaire", wasn't that the dedication?
Ahaha, I did not remember that, so I googled, and apparently it was "Deo erexit VOLTAIRE". I like the laconic English version a lot, but also the fact that "Voltaire" was written in the biggest letters. :D (And people wonder why he and Fritz didn't stop writing each other.)
"Everyone" needs to read more fanfic. Because my reaction was: "Of course they did!" ;D
"To God, from Voltaire", wasn't that the dedication?
Ahaha, I did not remember that, so I googled, and apparently it was "Deo erexit VOLTAIRE". I like the laconic English version a lot, but also the fact that "Voltaire" was written in the biggest letters. :D (And people wonder why he and Fritz didn't stop writing each other.)
Mourning: These orders from June 1st, 1740, say that royals, royal servants, nobility, and ministers had to wear specific black clothing for six weeks after FW's death, starting June 15th. (To give them time for ordering/tailoring I guess. Until then, everybody was supposed to wear any black clothing they already had.) Royal carriages had to be clad in black, but nobody else's. Envoys could do what they wanted on their own time but had to appear in black at court. I suspect it might have been similar after Fritz' death regarding the "deep mourning" period, i.e. the black clothes, which I think is different from a general mourning period. I also found this FW edict from 1734, which specifies the different mourning periods after the deaths of ordinary citizens, and it also says that when a royal dies, there will be individual orders every time, which we see above. So FWII must have given his own, but I couldn't find a copy so far.
Mildred, cahn, the FW micromanaging orders for mourning for ordinary citizens are fascinating and very FW/Prussian. Since they are written in the font you like to much, I shall translate:
Parents for children who were older than twelve years: three months. For children younger than twelve years: no mourning.
Biological parents, grandparents, great-gandparents: are to be mourned for six months. Adopted or stepparents as well as aunts: only thirty days.
Widow for her husband: exactly a year and no more.
Widower for his wife: half a year and no more.
Parents-in-law: half a year, no more.
People who made you their universal heir, even if they're not related to you: six months, if you like.
Brother, Sister, brother-in-law, sister-in-law: no more than three months.
cahn, the FW micromanaging orders for mourning for ordinary citizens are fascinating and very FW/Prussian. Since they are written in the font you like to much, I shall translate:Parents for children who were older than twelve years: three months. For children younger than twelve years: no mourning.
Biological parents, grandparents, great-gandparents: are to be mourned for six months. Adopted or stepparents as well as aunts: only thirty days.
Widow for her husband: exactly a year and no more.
Widower for his wife: half a year and no more.
Parents-in-law: half a year, no more.
People who made you their universal heir, even if they're not related to you: six months, if you like.
Brother, Sister, brother-in-law, sister-in-law: no more than three months.
Re: What if: FW vs G2 duel goes go through, ends lethally
mildred_of_midgard
2021-02-21 05:42 pm (UTC)(link)
As you once said to me: boringly, I agree with all this. ;)
What is FW like to live with as a husband/father after he's killed G2?
What is FW like to live with as a husband/father after he's killed G2?
It's the fact they then went back to writing each other that slays everyone.
If they had just made up, I think people would have understood. If they'd been in a cycle of "get back together"/"break up"/"get back together", it would have been popcorn time and people would have thought, "Clearly this isn't working, why can everyone but the two of them see it?"
But two decades of praising each other and making scathing remarks in the same breath confused the hell out of *everyone*. :P It was the simultaneity that made everyone go WTF.
Macaulay: It would probably have puzzled Voltaire himself to say what was his real feeling towards Frederick. It was compounded of all sentiments, from enmity to friendship, and from scorn to admiration; and the proportions in which these elements were mixed changed every moment. The old patriarch resembled the spoiled child who screams, stamps, cuffs, laughs, kisses, and cuddles within one quarter of an hour. His resentment was not extinguished; yet he was not without sympathy for his old friend.
(And the same goes for Fritz; he's just describing Voltaire's decision to try to talk Fritz out of suicide after Kolin.)
So he did, and even built a church. ("To God, from Voltaire", wasn't that the dedication?) And let's not forgot the "I'm sorry if you're insulted" repentenance document to penned on his deathbed
I did not forget! These were all on my mind. :)
On the one hand: this is like later 19th century historians deciding unilaterally that the "she cried, but she took" etc. crack about MT and the first Partitioning of Poland was too good to hail from some minor figur and had to come from Fritz, and nearly every biographer until this day following suit.
I know, that's why I said "Not very scientific." :P My feelings and my methodology are two different things.
I'm still disappointed that that crack turned out not to be Fritz's. That was the one that, 22 years ago this month, in the very first biography of Fritz I picked up, as I was just starting out in the 18th century fandom, turned me from "This guy seems really interesting" to "This guy is my problematic fave FOR LIFE! He's going into my novel!"
Oh, well. :)
(If you want an argument against Voltaire picking up the bonmot from someone else.)
Yeah, I had rejected the idea of Voltaire reading the report. What I think is much more likely is independent observations. All my training in the comparative method teaches me that the same idea cropping up in multiple places is radically more likely to be a single idea that originated once and spread if it's false; if it's something everyone can observe for themselves in reality, multiple people are likely to come up with it on their own. This is why, if you're grading papers and looking for cheating, two students coming up with identical wrong answers is far more diagnostic than identical right answers. (I say this from painful personal experience with having to haul students in front of the Dean for disciplinary action.)
So Wilhelmine and Pöllnitz both calling Major Schack Major "Schenk"? Likely that they had collaborated or had a common source. Two people observing that FW liked tall soldiers and Fritz liked good-looking ones? That's just reality. ;)
If they had just made up, I think people would have understood. If they'd been in a cycle of "get back together"/"break up"/"get back together", it would have been popcorn time and people would have thought, "Clearly this isn't working, why can everyone but the two of them see it?"
But two decades of praising each other and making scathing remarks in the same breath confused the hell out of *everyone*. :P It was the simultaneity that made everyone go WTF.
Macaulay: It would probably have puzzled Voltaire himself to say what was his real feeling towards Frederick. It was compounded of all sentiments, from enmity to friendship, and from scorn to admiration; and the proportions in which these elements were mixed changed every moment. The old patriarch resembled the spoiled child who screams, stamps, cuffs, laughs, kisses, and cuddles within one quarter of an hour. His resentment was not extinguished; yet he was not without sympathy for his old friend.
(And the same goes for Fritz; he's just describing Voltaire's decision to try to talk Fritz out of suicide after Kolin.)
So he did, and even built a church. ("To God, from Voltaire", wasn't that the dedication?) And let's not forgot the "I'm sorry if you're insulted" repentenance document to penned on his deathbed
I did not forget! These were all on my mind. :)
On the one hand: this is like later 19th century historians deciding unilaterally that the "she cried, but she took" etc. crack about MT and the first Partitioning of Poland was too good to hail from some minor figur and had to come from Fritz, and nearly every biographer until this day following suit.
I know, that's why I said "Not very scientific." :P My feelings and my methodology are two different things.
I'm still disappointed that that crack turned out not to be Fritz's. That was the one that, 22 years ago this month, in the very first biography of Fritz I picked up, as I was just starting out in the 18th century fandom, turned me from "This guy seems really interesting" to "This guy is my problematic fave FOR LIFE! He's going into my novel!"
Oh, well. :)
(If you want an argument against Voltaire picking up the bonmot from someone else.)
Yeah, I had rejected the idea of Voltaire reading the report. What I think is much more likely is independent observations. All my training in the comparative method teaches me that the same idea cropping up in multiple places is radically more likely to be a single idea that originated once and spread if it's false; if it's something everyone can observe for themselves in reality, multiple people are likely to come up with it on their own. This is why, if you're grading papers and looking for cheating, two students coming up with identical wrong answers is far more diagnostic than identical right answers. (I say this from painful personal experience with having to haul students in front of the Dean for disciplinary action.)
So Wilhelmine and Pöllnitz both calling Major Schack Major "Schenk"? Likely that they had collaborated or had a common source. Two people observing that FW liked tall soldiers and Fritz liked good-looking ones? That's just reality. ;)
I know we're all thinking of this, but it never gets old:
First of all, [personal profile] felis, fantastic discovery about SD being secretly in contact with her mother after all! I'm now mentally revising my picture entirely on that front.
Same! That was an amazing find.
We did know, though the usual (current) spelling is "Fieke
I've seen it spelled like 4 different ways, but that is the most common.
Ferdinand: not getting any respect even before he's born.
His destiny began early, I see.
This, I did know, as it's a fairly prominent sequence in the 1980s tv two parter Der Thronfolger, which was on Youtube a year ago (but no longer, alas, copyright struck, I guess). It also comes up in Der Vater, and, of course, in Wilhelmine's memoirs.
Yeah, I noticed Der Thronfolger had disappeared. But I was going to say,felis, you clearly need to read Wilhelmine's memoirs! If you're not up to a few hundred pages in French (are you? I realized I have no idea), I recommend the German edition which is available for free on Kindle. All the English versions I've been able to find are bowdlerized, and the second volume (the boring one) is additionally heavily cut for what seem to be length reasons.
Otoh, it was what weaned me off using translations when reading German!
He probably did, and yes, that's absolutely a heartbreaking quote. Bear in mind that while SD writes this in 1728, Stratemann doggedly describes a perfectly happy Prussian Royal Family with Disney Dad!
Meanwhile, Suhm is writing to August that everything is *terrible* and Fritz is begging for Saxon helping talking FW into letting him take an extended vacation, and Suhm is arguing, "We'd love to, but your father's never going to agree to let you go as long as he thinks you'll be happier there. You need to convince him you're happier here," and 16-yo Fritz is going, "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE NOOOOOOWWWWWW WHY WON'T ANYONE HELP MEEEEEEE!"
</3
Same! That was an amazing find.
We did know, though the usual (current) spelling is "Fieke
I've seen it spelled like 4 different ways, but that is the most common.
Ferdinand: not getting any respect even before he's born.
His destiny began early, I see.
This, I did know, as it's a fairly prominent sequence in the 1980s tv two parter Der Thronfolger, which was on Youtube a year ago (but no longer, alas, copyright struck, I guess). It also comes up in Der Vater, and, of course, in Wilhelmine's memoirs.
Yeah, I noticed Der Thronfolger had disappeared. But I was going to say,
felis, you clearly need to read Wilhelmine's memoirs! If you're not up to a few hundred pages in French (are you? I realized I have no idea), I recommend the German edition which is available for free on Kindle. All the English versions I've been able to find are bowdlerized, and the second volume (the boring one) is additionally heavily cut for what seem to be length reasons.Otoh, it was what weaned me off using translations when reading German!
He probably did, and yes, that's absolutely a heartbreaking quote. Bear in mind that while SD writes this in 1728, Stratemann doggedly describes a perfectly happy Prussian Royal Family with Disney Dad!
Meanwhile, Suhm is writing to August that everything is *terrible* and Fritz is begging for Saxon helping talking FW into letting him take an extended vacation, and Suhm is arguing, "We'd love to, but your father's never going to agree to let you go as long as he thinks you'll be happier there. You need to convince him you're happier here," and 16-yo Fritz is going, "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU I NEED TO GET OUT OF HERE NOOOOOOWWWWWW WHY WON'T ANYONE HELP MEEEEEEE!"
</3
Thank you!
I dimly recall at least one other dog mentioned by name in either Oster or in one of the correspondences, but it would take way longer to look it up than I have currently time available.
And even longer for me ;), so if anyone runs across it, please let me know, and if I run across it, I'll let everyone know.
I dimly recall at least one other dog mentioned by name in either Oster or in one of the correspondences, but it would take way longer to look it up than I have currently time available.
And even longer for me ;), so if anyone runs across it, please let me know, and if I run across it, I'll let everyone know.
So, this is from the English version of the memoirs in the library. I checked it against the German version on my Kindle, and this passage doesn't appear to be doctored.
The British monarch arrived on the 8th, at seven at night. The king, the queen, and all the court, received him in the Palace yard, because the apartments are on the ground-floor. After he had embraced the king and the queen, I was presented to the English monarch. He embraced me, and, turning to the queen, he observed : “Your daughter is very tall for her age.”
(In Der Thronfolger, he says "plump for her age". I would like to know the French original word here.)
He gave his hand to the queen, and conducted her to his apartment, where we all followed him. As soon as I entered the room, he took a wax-light, and examined me from head to foot : while I all the time remained immove able like a statute, and very much disconcerted. All this passed without his saying anything. After having thus reviewed me, he turned to my brother, whom he caressed much, and with whom he entertained himself for a long time. I availed myself of that opportunity to withdraw. The queen beckoned to me to follow her, and passed into an adjoining room, where the Englishmen and Germans of the king's retinue were presented to her. After having spoken with them for some time, she told the gentlemen, that she left me to converse with them; and ad dressing herself to the Englishmen: “Address my daughter in English,” said she ; “ you will perceive that she speaks it very well.”
I felt myself much less embarrassed when the queen was gone; and gaining a little confidence, I began to converse with those gentlemen. As I spoke their language as fluently as my native one, I got very well over it, and everyone appeared delighted with me.-- They praised me very much to the queen; and told her that I had the air of an English lady, and that I was calculated to be one, their sovereign. This was saying a great deal; for the English fancy themselves so much superior to other nations, that they think they pay a very great compliment when they say of a person, that he has the appearance of an Englishman.
The manners of the king were those of a Spaniard; he was uncommonly grave, and did not speak a word to any one. He received Madame de Sonsfeld very coolly, and asked whether I was always so grave, and of a melancholy disposition?
“Far from it,” replied she ; “but the respect which she has for your majesty deprives her of her usual cheerfulness.”
He shook his head, but made no reply. The manner in which he had received me, and what I had just heard, inspired me with such fear, that I never could sum mon courage enough to speak to him. - At length we sat down to supper; but the English monarch continued mute. I know not whether he was right, or wrong; but I think he followed the proverb which says, “It is better to say nothing, than to talk nonsense.”
He felt himself indisposed towards the end of the repast. The queen wished to persuade him to withdraw: many mutual compliments passed on the occasion; at last the queen threw her napkin on the table, and arose. The king of England began to totter, my father ran to support him : all rushed about him, but in vain: he fell upon his knees, his wig on one side, and his hat on the other. They gently laid him on the floor, where he remained senseless for a full hour.
The care that was taken with him brought him at last gradually to his senses. Meanwhile the king and queen were in the utmost consternation, and many people thought that this attack was the forerunner of an apoplexy. They earnestly intreated him to withdraw; but he would not, and reconducted the queen to her apart ment. He was very ill all the night; which we only learned by private means. But it did not prevent his re-appearing on the following day. The remainder of his stay was passed in pleasures and festivities. Secret conferences daily took place between the Eng lish and Prussian ministers: the result of which was the ratification of the treaty of alliance, and the double marriage which had been broached at Hanover; which were signed on the twelfth of the same month. The English monarch left us the next day; and his parting with all his relations was as cold as their re ception had been. The king and queen of Prussia were to return him his visit at the hunting box near Hanover.
The British monarch arrived on the 8th, at seven at night. The king, the queen, and all the court, received him in the Palace yard, because the apartments are on the ground-floor. After he had embraced the king and the queen, I was presented to the English monarch. He embraced me, and, turning to the queen, he observed : “Your daughter is very tall for her age.”
(In Der Thronfolger, he says "plump for her age". I would like to know the French original word here.)
He gave his hand to the queen, and conducted her to his apartment, where we all followed him. As soon as I entered the room, he took a wax-light, and examined me from head to foot : while I all the time remained immove able like a statute, and very much disconcerted. All this passed without his saying anything. After having thus reviewed me, he turned to my brother, whom he caressed much, and with whom he entertained himself for a long time. I availed myself of that opportunity to withdraw. The queen beckoned to me to follow her, and passed into an adjoining room, where the Englishmen and Germans of the king's retinue were presented to her. After having spoken with them for some time, she told the gentlemen, that she left me to converse with them; and ad dressing herself to the Englishmen: “Address my daughter in English,” said she ; “ you will perceive that she speaks it very well.”
I felt myself much less embarrassed when the queen was gone; and gaining a little confidence, I began to converse with those gentlemen. As I spoke their language as fluently as my native one, I got very well over it, and everyone appeared delighted with me.-- They praised me very much to the queen; and told her that I had the air of an English lady, and that I was calculated to be one, their sovereign. This was saying a great deal; for the English fancy themselves so much superior to other nations, that they think they pay a very great compliment when they say of a person, that he has the appearance of an Englishman.
The manners of the king were those of a Spaniard; he was uncommonly grave, and did not speak a word to any one. He received Madame de Sonsfeld very coolly, and asked whether I was always so grave, and of a melancholy disposition?
“Far from it,” replied she ; “but the respect which she has for your majesty deprives her of her usual cheerfulness.”
He shook his head, but made no reply. The manner in which he had received me, and what I had just heard, inspired me with such fear, that I never could sum mon courage enough to speak to him. - At length we sat down to supper; but the English monarch continued mute. I know not whether he was right, or wrong; but I think he followed the proverb which says, “It is better to say nothing, than to talk nonsense.”
He felt himself indisposed towards the end of the repast. The queen wished to persuade him to withdraw: many mutual compliments passed on the occasion; at last the queen threw her napkin on the table, and arose. The king of England began to totter, my father ran to support him : all rushed about him, but in vain: he fell upon his knees, his wig on one side, and his hat on the other. They gently laid him on the floor, where he remained senseless for a full hour.
The care that was taken with him brought him at last gradually to his senses. Meanwhile the king and queen were in the utmost consternation, and many people thought that this attack was the forerunner of an apoplexy. They earnestly intreated him to withdraw; but he would not, and reconducted the queen to her apart ment. He was very ill all the night; which we only learned by private means. But it did not prevent his re-appearing on the following day. The remainder of his stay was passed in pleasures and festivities. Secret conferences daily took place between the Eng lish and Prussian ministers: the result of which was the ratification of the treaty of alliance, and the double marriage which had been broached at Hanover; which were signed on the twelfth of the same month. The English monarch left us the next day; and his parting with all his relations was as cold as their re ception had been. The king and queen of Prussia were to return him his visit at the hunting box near Hanover.
OMGGG, detective felis makes it Christmas for me yet again! <333 Thank you so much!
Speaking of which...
If Mildred is Holmes, you're clearly Poirot.
Ahaha, given the icon I've been using around these parts, I'll go with "AU!Holmes". ;)
Well, since I never got into Holmes but love Poirot, you can be Holmes and I'll be Poirot. Deal? :D
Aw, thanks! I have to say, I'm genuinely amazed that there's so much to find online in the first place! We are really lucky that way.
We are! I'm going to play my "I'm getting old" card and say thatin MY day when I first got into 18th century history, in 1998-2001, there were no scanned books, no Google translate (Altavista Babelfish sucked), no Google maps, no Google drive, no Wikipedia, none of it! There was Brian Tompsett's royal genealogy site (which I'm sad was taken down recently), a forum where I managed to exchange messages with an actualfax adult historian (I was a high schooler, a fact which I was at pains to conceal) about the Jacobites, aaaand...that was most of the extent of my internet usage for historical research!
If there had to be a global pandemic during my lifetime, I'm glad it was after the internet took off.
felis makes it Christmas for me yet again! <333 Thank you so much!Speaking of which...
If Mildred is Holmes, you're clearly Poirot.
Ahaha, given the icon I've been using around these parts, I'll go with "AU!Holmes". ;)
Well, since I never got into Holmes but love Poirot, you can be Holmes and I'll be Poirot. Deal? :D
Aw, thanks! I have to say, I'm genuinely amazed that there's so much to find online in the first place! We are really lucky that way.
We are! I'm going to play my "I'm getting old" card and say that
If there had to be a global pandemic during my lifetime, I'm glad it was after the internet took off.
Yeah, this passage is fine, since there's neither sex nor is it in the interminable second volume.
He embraced me, and, turning to the queen, he observed : “Your daughter is very tall for her age.”
(In Der Thronfolger, he says "plump for her age". I would like to know the French original word here.)
Per Gutenberg:
votre fille est bien grande pour son âge.
He embraced me, and, turning to the queen, he observed : “Your daughter is very tall for her age.”
(In Der Thronfolger, he says "plump for her age". I would like to know the French original word here.)
Per Gutenberg:
votre fille est bien grande pour son âge.
Aka when you can tell that she spent two decades of her life trying to win these unknown people over only for them to not find her good enough, and didn't help her or Fritz at all. (Also, aside from G1 that one time she didn't meet any of them, so I do think the sharpness is due to all those years trying to be good enough for the Hannover relations and never getting there.):
The king of England (G1) was a prince who valued himself on his sentiments; but, unfortunately, he had never applied to the enlightening of his mind. Many virtues, carried to-an-extreme, become vices. This was his case. He affected a firmness which degene rated into harshness, and a tranquillity which might be called indolence. His generosity extended only to his favourites and mistresses, by whom he suffered himself to be governed; the rest of mankind were excluded. Since his accession to the crown, his haughtiness had become insupportable. Two qua lities, however, his equity and justice, rendered him estimable. He was by no means an evil-disposed prince, but rather constant in his benevolence. His manners were cold; he spoke little, and listened only to puerilities.
The countess of Schulenburg (then duchess of Kendal and princess of Eberstein) (Katte's aunt Melusine) was his mistress, or rather his wife by the left hand. She was of that class of beings who are so very good that they are, so to say, good for nothing. She had neither vices nor virtues: she only studied to keep in favour, and to guard against being supplanted.
The princess of Wales (Caroline) had a powerful understand ing and great knowledge. She had read much, and was possessed of a particular capacity for public affairs. On her arrival in England, she gained the hearts of all : her manners were gracious; she was affable, but she had not the good fortune to retain the affections of the people: means were found to ascertain her disposition, which did not correspond to her exterior. She was imperious, false, and, ambitious. She has frequently been compared to Agrippina; like that empress, she might have exclaimed, “Let all perish, so I do but rule.”
The prince, her consort (future G2), had not more genius than ricious to an unpardonable extreme.
The king of England (G1) was a prince who valued himself on his sentiments; but, unfortunately, he had never applied to the enlightening of his mind. Many virtues, carried to-an-extreme, become vices. This was his case. He affected a firmness which degene rated into harshness, and a tranquillity which might be called indolence. His generosity extended only to his favourites and mistresses, by whom he suffered himself to be governed; the rest of mankind were excluded. Since his accession to the crown, his haughtiness had become insupportable. Two qua lities, however, his equity and justice, rendered him estimable. He was by no means an evil-disposed prince, but rather constant in his benevolence. His manners were cold; he spoke little, and listened only to puerilities.
The countess of Schulenburg (then duchess of Kendal and princess of Eberstein) (Katte's aunt Melusine) was his mistress, or rather his wife by the left hand. She was of that class of beings who are so very good that they are, so to say, good for nothing. She had neither vices nor virtues: she only studied to keep in favour, and to guard against being supplanted.
The princess of Wales (Caroline) had a powerful understand ing and great knowledge. She had read much, and was possessed of a particular capacity for public affairs. On her arrival in England, she gained the hearts of all : her manners were gracious; she was affable, but she had not the good fortune to retain the affections of the people: means were found to ascertain her disposition, which did not correspond to her exterior. She was imperious, false, and, ambitious. She has frequently been compared to Agrippina; like that empress, she might have exclaimed, “Let all perish, so I do but rule.”
The prince, her consort (future G2), had not more genius than ricious to an unpardonable extreme.
Edited 2021-02-21 18:27 (UTC)
THANK YOU OMG THANK YOU
Death-related rituals have been a lifelong interest of mine, hence my interest in the death masks and various other things that have come up.
Since they are written in the font you like to much, I shall translate:
Hahaha. Thank you. I'm getting better! And one day, after I've gotten the hang of German, I'm going to tackle the font so that I can read all the older sources without you having to do it for me. In the meantime: thank you!
Widow for her husband: exactly a year and no more.
Widower for his wife: half a year and no more.
Ha! This actually matches England and the US in the 19th century, and I've learned painfully that my knowledge of those places and periods don't always translate to early 18th century Prussia when I think they do.
So I'm a bit confused: does the six week rule only apply to FW qua monarch, so the servants and nobility are done after six weeks, but his wife and children have to abide by the family rules? Or is it six weeks across the board?
Death-related rituals have been a lifelong interest of mine, hence my interest in the death masks and various other things that have come up.
Since they are written in the font you like to much, I shall translate:
Hahaha. Thank you. I'm getting better! And one day, after I've gotten the hang of German, I'm going to tackle the font so that I can read all the older sources without you having to do it for me. In the meantime: thank you!
Widow for her husband: exactly a year and no more.
Widower for his wife: half a year and no more.
Ha! This actually matches England and the US in the 19th century, and I've learned painfully that my knowledge of those places and periods don't always translate to early 18th century Prussia when I think they do.
So I'm a bit confused: does the six week rule only apply to FW qua monarch, so the servants and nobility are done after six weeks, but his wife and children have to abide by the family rules? Or is it six weeks across the board?
Just think of everyone, from Grandma Sophie Charlotte to Fritz to Leopold Mozart through the 18th century fangirling and fanboying Fénelon's bestseller on how to be a good prince and good young man in general.
But Grandma Sophie Charlotte and Fritz were cool with people converting to Catholicism for the sake of a royal marriage! Most Protestants were! It takes FW-level piety to object to that, and Katte seems to have needed that argument in order to risk his neck helping get Fritz out of Prussia. Would Oliver Cromwell have traveled to Madrid to visit the Catholic who mentored him? :P
I think more convincing analogy is the two millennia of hardcore Christians who managed to venerate various pagans but would have died (or killed :P) rather than see anyone give up Christianity.
However, I find your arguments about the non-religious motives Katte might have had about how this is going to affect Fritz's future and his relations with his father very convincing. You have saved my fanfic! (I can ignore Katte's last-minute return to devout Protestantism, as it was triggered by events that don't happen in my AU, yay.)
he doesn't even have to be a hardcore Protestant, but a good friend to Fritz, to find this prospect deeply alarming, if it's any consolation to you.
It's extremely consoling, thank you. :)
well, here's another example of a childhood imprint of "this faith is vile" surviving far beyond believing in the other faith: good old Voltaire.
Yeah, and for all that Fritz had a Catholic church built, he obviously considered Catholicism way worse. So I talked myself into Katte not having to be hardcore Protestant before the very end on those grounds. And then you gave me even better pragmatic reasons, so yay.
While thinking about your reasons, I started having fic ideas, which is good, but I promptly clamped down on that line of thinking before it could develop any further. :P
"Wow, go figure that Protestant bigots are still worse than Catholic bigots. As can also be seen by the fact Protestant fundies are anti theatre!" (The last never fails to crack me up.)
If the Protestants had banned databases, I as a non-Christian database administrator would have strong feelings on the subject! :P Theater is serious business when you're a playwright.
Here's another aspect, though: how did Fritz feel when discovering that his lie had had such an impact on Katte (especially in combination with receiving the Punctae later)? Might this cause some hastily repressed resentment that later shows itself in the remark to Grumbkow re: Katte?
That's what I've been assuming this whole time. He had a number of reasons for resenting Katte, which I've never held against him, no matter that I don't blame Katte myself. (Much like how Wilhelmine and Fritz must have resented each other deep down but been unable to work that out in therapy.) It was a horrendous situation for everyone involved.
But Grandma Sophie Charlotte and Fritz were cool with people converting to Catholicism for the sake of a royal marriage! Most Protestants were! It takes FW-level piety to object to that, and Katte seems to have needed that argument in order to risk his neck helping get Fritz out of Prussia. Would Oliver Cromwell have traveled to Madrid to visit the Catholic who mentored him? :P
I think more convincing analogy is the two millennia of hardcore Christians who managed to venerate various pagans but would have died (or killed :P) rather than see anyone give up Christianity.
However, I find your arguments about the non-religious motives Katte might have had about how this is going to affect Fritz's future and his relations with his father very convincing. You have saved my fanfic! (I can ignore Katte's last-minute return to devout Protestantism, as it was triggered by events that don't happen in my AU, yay.)
he doesn't even have to be a hardcore Protestant, but a good friend to Fritz, to find this prospect deeply alarming, if it's any consolation to you.
It's extremely consoling, thank you. :)
well, here's another example of a childhood imprint of "this faith is vile" surviving far beyond believing in the other faith: good old Voltaire.
Yeah, and for all that Fritz had a Catholic church built, he obviously considered Catholicism way worse. So I talked myself into Katte not having to be hardcore Protestant before the very end on those grounds. And then you gave me even better pragmatic reasons, so yay.
While thinking about your reasons, I started having fic ideas, which is good, but I promptly clamped down on that line of thinking before it could develop any further. :P
"Wow, go figure that Protestant bigots are still worse than Catholic bigots. As can also be seen by the fact Protestant fundies are anti theatre!" (The last never fails to crack me up.)
If the Protestants had banned databases, I as a non-Christian database administrator would have strong feelings on the subject! :P Theater is serious business when you're a playwright.
Here's another aspect, though: how did Fritz feel when discovering that his lie had had such an impact on Katte (especially in combination with receiving the Punctae later)? Might this cause some hastily repressed resentment that later shows itself in the remark to Grumbkow re: Katte?
That's what I've been assuming this whole time. He had a number of reasons for resenting Katte, which I've never held against him, no matter that I don't blame Katte myself. (Much like how Wilhelmine and Fritz must have resented each other deep down but been unable to work that out in therapy.) It was a horrendous situation for everyone involved.
So I'm a bit confused: does the six week rule only apply to FW qua monarch, so the servants and nobility are done after six weeks, but his wife and children have to abide by the family rules? Or is it six weeks across the board?
I was wondering that as well, and also inhowfar position trumps personal relation, as in: surely Fritz himself as the new king did not actually wear black for six months. (Or even the six weeks??) The one thing I found at Trier were two entries in Droysen's itinerary, who marks the beginning of the deep mourning ("große Trauer") on June 15th, and then has an entry on June 1st, 1741, which says "Die Königin-Mutter legt die Trauer ab.", which would indicate that the family rules did indeed apply to royals. Or at least some of them, as I have a feeling that the rules for the women (and in another way, also for the military possibly) might have been their own thing, particularly because I just realized that I translated inaccurately in my initial comment: It doesn't actually say "royals", it says "royal princes"! Sorry about that. I don't know if that means that the guys got away with six weeks and the women didn't, though.
I was wondering that as well, and also inhowfar position trumps personal relation, as in: surely Fritz himself as the new king did not actually wear black for six months. (Or even the six weeks??) The one thing I found at Trier were two entries in Droysen's itinerary, who marks the beginning of the deep mourning ("große Trauer") on June 15th, and then has an entry on June 1st, 1741, which says "Die Königin-Mutter legt die Trauer ab.", which would indicate that the family rules did indeed apply to royals. Or at least some of them, as I have a feeling that the rules for the women (and in another way, also for the military possibly) might have been their own thing, particularly because I just realized that I translated inaccurately in my initial comment: It doesn't actually say "royals", it says "royal princes"! Sorry about that. I don't know if that means that the guys got away with six weeks and the women didn't, though.
surely Fritz himself as the new king did not actually wear black for six months.
That's what I thought! Surely FW would want him (and the rest of his sons) in uniform. :P (Were black uniforms for the military a thing? I just realized I don't know.)
Also wanted to call this tocahn's attention:
For children younger than twelve years: no mourning.
Note that this reflects the child mortality rate, which I keep reading was 50% or even higher, and applied across all social classes; i.e. your chances of survival in your first few years weren't actually better if you were a royal as opposed to a peasant.
That's what I thought! Surely FW would want him (and the rest of his sons) in uniform. :P (Were black uniforms for the military a thing? I just realized I don't know.)
Also wanted to call this to
cahn's attention:For children younger than twelve years: no mourning.
Note that this reflects the child mortality rate, which I keep reading was 50% or even higher, and applied across all social classes; i.e. your chances of survival in your first few years weren't actually better if you were a royal as opposed to a peasant.
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