Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 44

[cahn]

Not only are these posts still going, there is now (more) original research going on in them deciphering and translating letters in archives that apparently no one has bothered to look at before?? (Which has now conclusively exonerated Fritz's valet/chamberlain Fredersdorf from the charge that he was dismissed because of financial irregularities and died shortly thereafter "ashamed of his lost honor," as Wikipedia would have it. I'M JUST SAYING.)

Comments

Re: Peter's mother to Fritz - Translation

[selenak]

Given Felis identified „betrübt“ instead of „beliebt“, and we thus have an unsarcastic most afflicted widow, that matter is settled, but I still think it‘s possible she invented the story of Executed!Peter rumors as a way to remind Fritz of his existence (and of her own, since she does ask for a job with EC).

This said, you make a good point about Hans Heinrich‘s „want to stop the neigbors from gossiping“ argument towards FW, and a scenario where neigbours make up stories to torment Peter‘s mother because of a mixture of her being unpopular and unable to do something against them (if she‘s having legal troubles and not much money anyway). One thing I‘m pretty certain about, though, is that there was no genuine rumor about executed!Peter making the rounds in 1740, simply because I doubt many people outside his immediate family and social circle from 1730 recalled his existence. Back then, he was for a while talked about - see Stratemann recording the rumor that G2 immediately accepted him into his armed forces and gave him his own command - but ten years later? I don‘t think so. I get the sense that after Katte‘s execution and the pamphlets about said execution, the popular imagination seized on the „Katte and Fritz against the world together“ scenario and yet another guy doesn‘t fit that story template.

But even if I‘m wrong there: say people recall Peter‘s existence in late 1739 and early 1740 because it becomes apparant that FW is dying, for real this time, which means Fritz will soon become King. Given how „Peter is granted asylum in England by Caroline, supported but also sent to Ireland to study to avoid further tension with FW“ transformed by rumor into „Peter is welcomed with open arms by the Brits and G2 even gives him his own command!!!“, the more likely rumor to develop would be „omg, the other guy from 1730 is surely going to be called back now, no, it‘s already happened and Fritz has promised him his own cabinet job!“, not „remember the other guy from 1730? He just got executed in England!“ If I were a neigbour of Vigilantia in 1740 and would only know her son fled into exile because of his involvement with Fritz in 1730, I wouldn‘t persecute her, I would seek her favor because surely, the King is bound to remember and shower the Keith family with goodies now!

….which is why I still favour the explanation she made the entire story up so she has a tactful and not appearing to be reminding him of old debts way of reminding Fritz of old debts (to Peter).

Re: Peter's mother to Fritz - Translation

[mildred_of_midgard]

I still think it‘s possible she invented the story of Executed!Peter rumors as a way to remind Fritz of his existence (and of her own, since she does ask for a job with EC).

I still think it's possible too! And I'm glad you proposed that reading, because my unironic self would not have gotten that.

One thing I‘m pretty certain about, though, is that there was no genuine rumor about executed!Peter making the rounds in 1740, simply because I doubt many people outside his immediate family and social circle from 1730 recalled his existence.

The rounds in Europe? No. The rounds in Poberow? It's a small town/village, he's nobility, he grew up there, his mother (and other family?) still live there, I'm sure the locals have *nothing* better to do than gossip about him. I don't know what the population was in in 1740, but Wikipedia tells me it's currently 179, and my impression of extremely small towns/villages is that gossip is eternal. I doubt Vigilantia remembers the local shopkeeper's third son, but I believe the shopkeeper remembers the third son of the lord and lady of the manor!

Furthermore, I *think*--tell me if I'm wrong--you're taking the apparent dislike of the neighbors towards her as a completely separate thing from the lawsuits? I think the most likely source of the lawsuit has to do with the neighbors. Yeah, maybe there's some inheritance dispute in some remote locale that the neighbors may have heard of but are indifferent toward the outcome of, but I strongly suspect there's bad blood because of the way Vigilantia/the Keiths have been acting: either suing the neighbors or behaving in a way that led one of them to sue her.

Remember, the Kattes had lawsuits going in both Königsberg and Brandenberg, the two places where they lived, and Hans Heinrich was very unpopular with the neighbors in Königsberg. And that lawsuit dragged on for years (I still think it's a hell of a coincidence that it ended the same year as the fraternal duel, and that makes me wonder if a bunch of money was at stake thanks to a favorable outcome of the lawsuit).

All of which is to say,

If I were a neigbour of Vigilantia in 1740 and would only know her son fled into exile because of his involvement with Fritz in 1730, I wouldn‘t persecute her, I would seek her favor

Unless you or someone you're siding with had been suing her for the last few years; then it might get personal. I mean, not you personally, we've established that many of the people we meet in salon are not as decent as you, which sometimes makes their motives baffling. ;) But other people. The lawsuits, if they involve locals, actually make this whole story way more plausible to me.

the more likely rumor to develop would be „omg, the other guy from 1730 is surely going to be called back now, no, it‘s already happened and Fritz has promised him his own cabinet job!“, not „remember the other guy from 1730? He just got executed in England!“

True, but much like Fritz/EC, where some people thought his accession was going to end in good things for her and others thought was going to end in divorce, and that was people who had *met* them both and were paid to find out information, rumors can fly in both directions!

…which is why I still favour the explanation she made the entire story up so she has a tactful and not appearing to be reminding him of old debts way of reminding Fritz of old debts (to Peter).

And I still think that this is a fantastically non-confrontational way of doing exactly that, which is the main reason I think it might be true. I'm just not convinced that the reason it's plausible is because that alternative is implausible, when the alternative is that her neighbors in Poberow remember the noble boy who grew up there and briefly made international news, aren't experts on British execution techniques, and are really cheesed off at the family in regards to some lawsuits.