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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 24
Every post I can't believe this is still going on, and yet, here we are :D
Re: Zimmermann: Über Friedrich den Großen und meine Unterredungen mit ihm kurz vor seinem Tod
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mildred_of_midgard
2021-03-03 01:01 am (UTC)(link)
And Zimmermann was filled full of male tenderness (männliche Zärtlichkeit) when visiting this wonderful human being
Such manly, heterosexual tenderness! I am moved.
And he had the most beautiful eyes ever given to a human being, ever...His tone of voice is the clearest and most agreeable Zimmermann has ever heard. Also, no one was ever so misunderstood as Fritz was.
Zimmermann: fanfic writer extraordinaire.
Though he does tell a touching dog story, about Fritz' current favourite dog having been ill in 1785, when Fritz was doing his last trip to Silesia, so he couldn't take the dog with him but had fast couriers standing by to bring him news of how the dog was doing, and was heartbroken when the dog died.
Aaaahhh. Thank you for this! I've been wanting a date for that. I'd only figured out that it must be after the War of the Bavarian Succession.
That must be Alcmene II, the one who was buried in the vault with him and whom he (supposedly) had exhumed when he returned from Silesia. That makes sense if it that was happening in 1785. Furthermore, the Silesian maneuvers in 1785 were when he's supposed to have stayed several hours in the pouring rain reviewing the troops, caught a fever, and pushed himself too hard, and triggered the beginning of the end: the final year of his life, September 1785-August 1786, in which it was clear he was dying.
He must have known Alcmene would be the last favorite he would outlive, and that's why she was in the vault with him.
MY HEART. (It's okay, Fritz, I wrote a fic where she finally gets to wake you up in 1991. And Prinzsorgenfrei drew beautiful art of you, sans souci at last!)
Oh, speaking of dogs! Have any of our recent 1780s/1790s sources confirmed that Superbe was the name of the dog who was with him when he died? I think I've only seen that in secondary sources, but most of the detail I've seen has been borne out so far.
Zimmermann, like the Salon, has read the printed Crown Prince Fritz/Suhm letters and thinks they're the most beautiful testimony to Fritz' capacity of feeling and love.
I don't disagree (as everyone knows), it's just that...love is easy, love without abuse is harder. Many, maybe most, abusers can genuinely say they love their victims. But yes, all those claims that Fritz never loved anyone, or only loved Fredersdorf, or only Lord Marischal, or whoever, those can be dismissed out of hand.
But the Fritz/Suhm letters remain THE BEST, uniformly positive and supportive, and endearing to read. <3 A little one-dimensional, but hey. There's enough complex relationships in this fandom (inc. Fritz lying to Katte!) that I'll take it.
ce roi unique
Der Einzige!
he resorts to stock phrases instead.
Oof, yes. That's forgettable in the extreme.
But even for the spirit of the age, the mixture of high strung adoration on the one hand
Per Blanning:
After his first encounter with his hero in 1771 [Zimmermann] left the room in floods of tears, exclaiming, “Oh, my love for the King of Prussia is beyond words!”
On the one hand, 18th century. On the other hand...yeah.
the mixture of high strung adoration on the one hand and the insistence of being The One Who Truly Understands (while all the other competing publications are wrong, of course) is annoying
Can if you imagine if The Other One Who Truly Understands had published at this time? The literary wars! The feuds!
Such manly, heterosexual tenderness! I am moved.
And he had the most beautiful eyes ever given to a human being, ever...His tone of voice is the clearest and most agreeable Zimmermann has ever heard. Also, no one was ever so misunderstood as Fritz was.
Zimmermann: fanfic writer extraordinaire.
Though he does tell a touching dog story, about Fritz' current favourite dog having been ill in 1785, when Fritz was doing his last trip to Silesia, so he couldn't take the dog with him but had fast couriers standing by to bring him news of how the dog was doing, and was heartbroken when the dog died.
Aaaahhh. Thank you for this! I've been wanting a date for that. I'd only figured out that it must be after the War of the Bavarian Succession.
That must be Alcmene II, the one who was buried in the vault with him and whom he (supposedly) had exhumed when he returned from Silesia. That makes sense if it that was happening in 1785. Furthermore, the Silesian maneuvers in 1785 were when he's supposed to have stayed several hours in the pouring rain reviewing the troops, caught a fever, and pushed himself too hard, and triggered the beginning of the end: the final year of his life, September 1785-August 1786, in which it was clear he was dying.
He must have known Alcmene would be the last favorite he would outlive, and that's why she was in the vault with him.
MY HEART. (It's okay, Fritz, I wrote a fic where she finally gets to wake you up in 1991. And Prinzsorgenfrei drew beautiful art of you, sans souci at last!)
Oh, speaking of dogs! Have any of our recent 1780s/1790s sources confirmed that Superbe was the name of the dog who was with him when he died? I think I've only seen that in secondary sources, but most of the detail I've seen has been borne out so far.
Zimmermann, like the Salon, has read the printed Crown Prince Fritz/Suhm letters and thinks they're the most beautiful testimony to Fritz' capacity of feeling and love.
I don't disagree (as everyone knows), it's just that...love is easy, love without abuse is harder. Many, maybe most, abusers can genuinely say they love their victims. But yes, all those claims that Fritz never loved anyone, or only loved Fredersdorf, or only Lord Marischal, or whoever, those can be dismissed out of hand.
But the Fritz/Suhm letters remain THE BEST, uniformly positive and supportive, and endearing to read. <3 A little one-dimensional, but hey. There's enough complex relationships in this fandom (inc. Fritz lying to Katte!) that I'll take it.
ce roi unique
Der Einzige!
he resorts to stock phrases instead.
Oof, yes. That's forgettable in the extreme.
But even for the spirit of the age, the mixture of high strung adoration on the one hand
Per Blanning:
After his first encounter with his hero in 1771 [Zimmermann] left the room in floods of tears, exclaiming, “Oh, my love for the King of Prussia is beyond words!”
On the one hand, 18th century. On the other hand...yeah.
the mixture of high strung adoration on the one hand and the insistence of being The One Who Truly Understands (while all the other competing publications are wrong, of course) is annoying
Can if you imagine if The Other One Who Truly Understands had published at this time? The literary wars! The feuds!
Oh woooooow. Those are goooorgeous clips and I can, uh, almost see why you'd castrate a kid if it meant he'd sound like that. I assume that in the second clip the flashbacks are Riccardo consoling him after he was castrated? Ugh, angst!! Also, ouch!
*nods* Yes, this was my impression of Salieri as well when I listened to a bunch of his operas a while back (and why he isn't remembered the way Mozart is). Ha, I watched a less-than-engaging version of Aida and I still need to watch Falstaff. I really need to find some good performances, and I'll keep that in mind! (I have watched a good performance of Otello, which was amazing.)
Superbe: haven't seen her in the Kletschke account, but maybe Rödenbeck or Büsching have her? I'm still slowly rereading Nicolai.
Such manly, heterosexual tenderness! I am moved.
I know. Zimmmermann, we would not mock your gigantic crush if you didn't attempt to provide no homo historians with fodder for centuries with your tinhat theories.
BTW, he had his wife with him on that journey (not when meeting Fritz, of course), since his cover story was that he was visiting Berlin only to show her Potsdam. Why did he need a cover story? Because he wanted to be discreet and not signal to the rest of the world how ill Fritz had to be if he was summoning Dr. Zimmmermann. Unfortunately, says Zimmermann, SOMEONE gossipped in advance about his impending arrival nonetheless, and the poetess Anna Maria Karsch wrote a poem about him coming to the King's aid which got published in the Berlin papers, thus ruining his cover story.
He must have known Alcmene would be the last favorite he would outlive, and that's why she was in the vault with him.
And thus you have answered another question, Poirot! Also, awwww. Zimmermann does note there was a new dog sitting next to Fritz on a chair with blue cushions, but not whether she was called Superbe.
love is easy, love without abuse is harder. Many, maybe most, abusers can genuinely say they love their victims.
True, and FW is a case in point. I have no doubt he loved his children and his wife, and yearned to be loved by them. (And naturally he loved his Potsdam Giants! And the rest of the army, a little bit less but still. Doesn't mean they didn't get gruesome punishments for desertion.)
Oof, yes. That's forgettable in the extreme.
Isn't it? I do regret we haven't found yet Schöning encountering one of the better letter or diary writers.
Can if you imagine if The Other One Who Truly Understands had published at this time? The literary wars! The feuds!
Ha, this reminds me that in his anti Zimmermann book, Nicolali addresses Zimmermann saying - after the storm over his "Fragments" broke loose - that this was just anti Swiss xenophobia on the part of the Germam publishing industry. To which Nicolai says that firstly, Zimmermann used to be highly respected by him and the others before his last three books, as Zimmermann damm well knows, and secondly, none of them has ever said a harsh word about the equally Swiss Catt, did they? On the contrary, see all the positive references to Henri de Catt in his and Büschings collections since they talked with him, too. But you see, Z, CATT would never!
Henri de Catt, currently busy beefing up his memoirs: Okay, that does it. I'm only publishing once I'm dead.
Such manly, heterosexual tenderness! I am moved.
I know. Zimmmermann, we would not mock your gigantic crush if you didn't attempt to provide no homo historians with fodder for centuries with your tinhat theories.
BTW, he had his wife with him on that journey (not when meeting Fritz, of course), since his cover story was that he was visiting Berlin only to show her Potsdam. Why did he need a cover story? Because he wanted to be discreet and not signal to the rest of the world how ill Fritz had to be if he was summoning Dr. Zimmmermann. Unfortunately, says Zimmermann, SOMEONE gossipped in advance about his impending arrival nonetheless, and the poetess Anna Maria Karsch wrote a poem about him coming to the King's aid which got published in the Berlin papers, thus ruining his cover story.
He must have known Alcmene would be the last favorite he would outlive, and that's why she was in the vault with him.
And thus you have answered another question, Poirot! Also, awwww. Zimmermann does note there was a new dog sitting next to Fritz on a chair with blue cushions, but not whether she was called Superbe.
love is easy, love without abuse is harder. Many, maybe most, abusers can genuinely say they love their victims.
True, and FW is a case in point. I have no doubt he loved his children and his wife, and yearned to be loved by them. (And naturally he loved his Potsdam Giants! And the rest of the army, a little bit less but still. Doesn't mean they didn't get gruesome punishments for desertion.)
Oof, yes. That's forgettable in the extreme.
Isn't it? I do regret we haven't found yet Schöning encountering one of the better letter or diary writers.
Can if you imagine if The Other One Who Truly Understands had published at this time? The literary wars! The feuds!
Ha, this reminds me that in his anti Zimmermann book, Nicolali addresses Zimmermann saying - after the storm over his "Fragments" broke loose - that this was just anti Swiss xenophobia on the part of the Germam publishing industry. To which Nicolai says that firstly, Zimmermann used to be highly respected by him and the others before his last three books, as Zimmermann damm well knows, and secondly, none of them has ever said a harsh word about the equally Swiss Catt, did they? On the contrary, see all the positive references to Henri de Catt in his and Büschings collections since they talked with him, too. But you see, Z, CATT would never!
Henri de Catt, currently busy beefing up his memoirs: Okay, that does it. I'm only publishing once I'm dead.
Man, poor Marie Antoinette. (And thank you for summarizing the affair of the necklace -- which I am sure I knew once upon a time when Awesome French Teacher was feeding me all the French Revolution books, but which I have totally forgotten by now.)
Heh, yeah, I would definitely not have guessed that problem either!
Heh, yeah, I would definitely not have guessed that problem either!
LOL. Here's a video of the so called "Knocking ceremony", last performed for Otto (von) Habsburg, last Archduke and Crown Prince of the old Empire (and Member of the European Parliament), at the Capuchine Crypt (where they keep most of the bodies). It would have been the same for MT (and FS, and Joseph):
First knock.
Monk: Who asks for entrance?
Ceremonial master: (Name of Dead Habsburg), (All the Titles of Dead Habsburgs) (these are all Mt's titles, if you want to hear them listed out loud. Including "Duke/Duchess of Silesia", naturally. :)
Monk: We do not know him.
Second knock
Monk: Who asks for entrance?
Ceremonial Master: (Name of Dead Habsburg), (lists individual accomplishments of dead Habsburg)
Monk: We do not know him.
Third knock
Monk: Who asks for entrance?
Ceremonial Master: (Name of Dead Habsburg), a sinner.
Monk: He/She may enter.
First knock.
Monk: Who asks for entrance?
Ceremonial master: (Name of Dead Habsburg), (All the Titles of Dead Habsburgs) (these are all Mt's titles, if you want to hear them listed out loud. Including "Duke/Duchess of Silesia", naturally. :)
Monk: We do not know him.
Second knock
Monk: Who asks for entrance?
Ceremonial Master: (Name of Dead Habsburg), (lists individual accomplishments of dead Habsburg)
Monk: We do not know him.
Third knock
Monk: Who asks for entrance?
Ceremonial Master: (Name of Dead Habsburg), a sinner.
Monk: He/She may enter.
I did know that Fanny was a composer, though I'd never played anything by her (hm, checking out your wiki link, probably because a lot of what she wrote was lieder or piano, and my piano repertoire is pretty limited), but I didn't know all that (or anything really) about her life. Wow. That's really interesting, and rather depressing in many ways, although according to the wiki article at least her husband seems to have supported her composing and publishing.
Schöning says he did not, that he thought the soul was gone after death, but that he did believe in God.
I thought he was an atheist? (Also probably due to Mildred's fic.) But anyway this is much more believable than Catt :PP
Heinrich: I am very loudly not commenting on this.
HEEEEE.
I thought he was an atheist? (Also probably due to Mildred's fic.) But anyway this is much more believable than Catt :PP
Heinrich: I am very loudly not commenting on this.
HEEEEE.
*facepalm* You'd think I'd know better after going through it a couple of times, but apparently I confused yeast infections (which can in fact happen with some frequency when you're not breastfeeding but your milk has still come in, because you're wet all the time until it dries up) with bacterial mastitis (the bacteria being introduced from the kid's mouth), the former of which is probably not actually going to kill you :P
Seriously, the more I learn about Fritz' pretty hussars (Schöning excepted), the more I realise he and Heinrich had even more in common than I had thought. :)
Also: Deist, not Atheist. Fritz and Voltaire believed there was a God who started everything, just that the world and its people then were left to their own devices, basically. (BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson, which makes all the super Christianity of the US thereafter allied to a cult of the Founders super ironic.)
Also: Deist, not Atheist. Fritz and Voltaire believed there was a God who started everything, just that the world and its people then were left to their own devices, basically. (BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson, which makes all the super Christianity of the US thereafter allied to a cult of the Founders super ironic.)
What Selena said! If you got the impression he was an atheist from my fic, that was extremely unintentional on my part. It's probably due to the fact that Deism was common in the 18th century but uncommon now, so people whose beliefs overlap with Fritz's nowadays are atheists.
But Fritz was always a Deist, as Schöning describes, believing in a prime mover but not in an afterlife. I will give Catt credit for describing that correctly: he always has Fritz professing belief in God but not immortality of the soul. The part where Catt's bias creeps in is that he adds things, like, "Well, naturally Fritz had doubts, and argued so much not because he wanted to convince me, but because he wanted me to convince him! And naturally he started coming around! He wanted to see his mother and sister, after all. And naturally he was confused and very superstitious, which is what happens when you don't have Christianity to prevent you from erring."
Remember that Diderot was unusual for his time in being a straight up atheist, and he didn't want to meet Voltaire because Voltaire was going to try to convert him, and he did not wish to be converted, and they had lots of written exchanges before they finally met. Fritz and Voltaire were on the same page about religion.
This is also the context in which Voltaire pointedly dedicates his church to "God" and says it's the only one, with the rest being dedicated to saints--that was a Deist jab at Christianity, especially Catholicism.
BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson, which makes all the super Christianity of the US thereafter allied to a cult of the Founders super ironic.
Indeed, this is where I learned about Deism in school even before I encountered it on my own, and in fact managed to be a Deist for a few months in high school. ;)
But Fritz was always a Deist, as Schöning describes, believing in a prime mover but not in an afterlife. I will give Catt credit for describing that correctly: he always has Fritz professing belief in God but not immortality of the soul. The part where Catt's bias creeps in is that he adds things, like, "Well, naturally Fritz had doubts, and argued so much not because he wanted to convince me, but because he wanted me to convince him! And naturally he started coming around! He wanted to see his mother and sister, after all. And naturally he was confused and very superstitious, which is what happens when you don't have Christianity to prevent you from erring."
Remember that Diderot was unusual for his time in being a straight up atheist, and he didn't want to meet Voltaire because Voltaire was going to try to convert him, and he did not wish to be converted, and they had lots of written exchanges before they finally met. Fritz and Voltaire were on the same page about religion.
This is also the context in which Voltaire pointedly dedicates his church to "God" and says it's the only one, with the rest being dedicated to saints--that was a Deist jab at Christianity, especially Catholicism.
BTW, I seem to recall some of the US Founding Fathers were Deists, too, notably Jefferson, which makes all the super Christianity of the US thereafter allied to a cult of the Founders super ironic.
Indeed, this is where I learned about Deism in school even before I encountered it on my own, and in fact managed to be a Deist for a few months in high school. ;)
Ahhh, okay! I was like--but mastitis is the thing you get from breastfeeding! I have to say, I was raised with the impression that breastfeeding is something you do if you can't afford formula, and while I've never heard anyone complain about not breastfeeding (I mean in terms of the symptoms--people complain about not being *able* to breastfeed), I've heard people complain a lot of about breastfeeding. It sounds massively uncomfortable and awful, and I decided early on I wanted no part in it, even if someday in the future I unexpectedly changed my mind about not wanting kids (spoiler: I didn't).
Maybe you did, but if so I have no memory of it and it's not ringing a bell, so thank you for the reminder!
I'm faceblind and can barely tell who you are with my glasses on. ;) Be prepared if we ever meet in person.
I'm faceblind and can barely tell who you are with my glasses on. ;) Be prepared if we ever meet in person.
Oooh, this appeals to my interest in the ritualistic aspect of death. Thank you! Will watch later.
Re: Zimmermann: Über Friedrich den Großen und meine Unterredungen mit ihm kurz vor seinem Tod
mildred_of_midgard
2021-03-03 01:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Many, maybe most, abusers can genuinely say they love their victims.
True, and FW is a case in point.
Yep, he was front and center in my mind when I wrote that. (A long with a lot of modern psychological literature on trauma.)
secondly, none of them has ever said a harsh word about the equally Swiss Catt, did they? On the contrary, see all the positive references to Henri de Catt in his and Büschings collections since they talked with him, too. But you see, Z, CATT would never!
Henri de Catt, currently busy beefing up his memoirs: Okay, that does it. I'm only publishing once I'm dead.
AHAHAHAAAAA, wow. I had noticed both Zimmermann and Catt were Swiss, but hadn't realized that aspect featured in the great feud. This is hilarious!
Man, if Catt *had* published during his lifetime, Nicolai would have eviscerated him a work that people might have read, because it was in the main text, rather than a preface that people like me always skip. ;)
Mind you, that hasn't stopped the Fritzian penis theory from spreading, sadly. (I know you told AP about his naked body being examined, but we were trusting Blanning at that point--does he know we now have more detail and it seems very reliable?)
True, and FW is a case in point.
Yep, he was front and center in my mind when I wrote that. (A long with a lot of modern psychological literature on trauma.)
secondly, none of them has ever said a harsh word about the equally Swiss Catt, did they? On the contrary, see all the positive references to Henri de Catt in his and Büschings collections since they talked with him, too. But you see, Z, CATT would never!
Henri de Catt, currently busy beefing up his memoirs: Okay, that does it. I'm only publishing once I'm dead.
AHAHAHAAAAA, wow. I had noticed both Zimmermann and Catt were Swiss, but hadn't realized that aspect featured in the great feud. This is hilarious!
Man, if Catt *had* published during his lifetime, Nicolai would have eviscerated him a work that people might have read, because it was in the main text, rather than a preface that people like me always skip. ;)
Mind you, that hasn't stopped the Fritzian penis theory from spreading, sadly. (I know you told AP about his naked body being examined, but we were trusting Blanning at that point--does he know we now have more detail and it seems very reliable?)
Thank you for bracing the bad printing quality and extracting this feud! Very entertaining.
why FS was at Fritz' engagement party later, gloating over his defeated rival for MT's love and hand
Aw, poor FS, victim of Z's pet theory.
So, Nicolai on the gay question is basically: we all know it, but there's really no need to talk about it, so I certainly won't?
Zimmermann's legacy: causing multiple people to give signed testimonies on the state of Fritz' penis. I mean. Congrats? :P
Well, says Nicolai, it's all that bastard Voltaire's fault, because he was the one who started the story of the botched operation in his slanderous writings, which everyone had read, so these guys were curious and had a look.
Naturally. Who wouldn't have? I am amused. And of course it's Voltaire's fault in the end.
And Z, you're again not being a gentleman towards a lady by putting into print Barbarina's old scandals, because Barbarina? Still alive, and wonderful highly respected old lady who has funded a woman's shelter in silesia with her fortune, so there.
Did she? If so, good for her!
Nicolai's research into the not-actually-lady-in-waiting is really interesting, as is his comment on the quote doctoring.
By the way, via Volz' footnotes I found another Zimmermann refutation by the second chamber husar called Neumann (can be found here, written 1789), who is a lot less scientific about it and basically all about how Zimmermann was an arrogant and self-important person, who talked too much instead of doing his job, made up lies, was in it for the money, and fawned over Schöning (who was the second! chamber husar, he, Neumann, was the first!) while totally ignoring other people (read: Neumann), who might have known a few things, too.
Also, that guy Schöning? Totally sucked up to FWII and that's why he got made Geheimer Kriegsrath. Neumann only serves one sun at a time, thank you very much, no rising sun for him. Oh, and that Büsching guy got ahead of himself, too. And he, Neumann, has half a mind to duel himself with all those other people who have been publishing insulting lies about the great king since his death. He also says the dog death during the Silesia revue was actually in 1784 and daily messages are a lie and while the King absolutely did get a message about the dog's death, it totally was his right as a king, so there! (He is trying to defend Fritz from a perceived "valued dogs more than people" slight in this passage. Indiscriminately defensive? Why would you ever think that?)
why FS was at Fritz' engagement party later, gloating over his defeated rival for MT's love and hand
Aw, poor FS, victim of Z's pet theory.
So, Nicolai on the gay question is basically: we all know it, but there's really no need to talk about it, so I certainly won't?
Zimmermann's legacy: causing multiple people to give signed testimonies on the state of Fritz' penis. I mean. Congrats? :P
Well, says Nicolai, it's all that bastard Voltaire's fault, because he was the one who started the story of the botched operation in his slanderous writings, which everyone had read, so these guys were curious and had a look.
Naturally. Who wouldn't have? I am amused. And of course it's Voltaire's fault in the end.
And Z, you're again not being a gentleman towards a lady by putting into print Barbarina's old scandals, because Barbarina? Still alive, and wonderful highly respected old lady who has funded a woman's shelter in silesia with her fortune, so there.
Did she? If so, good for her!
Nicolai's research into the not-actually-lady-in-waiting is really interesting, as is his comment on the quote doctoring.
By the way, via Volz' footnotes I found another Zimmermann refutation by the second chamber husar called Neumann (can be found here, written 1789), who is a lot less scientific about it and basically all about how Zimmermann was an arrogant and self-important person, who talked too much instead of doing his job, made up lies, was in it for the money, and fawned over Schöning (who was the second! chamber husar, he, Neumann, was the first!) while totally ignoring other people (read: Neumann), who might have known a few things, too.
Also, that guy Schöning? Totally sucked up to FWII and that's why he got made Geheimer Kriegsrath. Neumann only serves one sun at a time, thank you very much, no rising sun for him. Oh, and that Büsching guy got ahead of himself, too. And he, Neumann, has half a mind to duel himself with all those other people who have been publishing insulting lies about the great king since his death. He also says the dog death during the Silesia revue was actually in 1784 and daily messages are a lie and while the King absolutely did get a message about the dog's death, it totally was his right as a king, so there! (He is trying to defend Fritz from a perceived "valued dogs more than people" slight in this passage. Indiscriminately defensive? Why would you ever think that?)
Aw, poor FS, victim of Z's pet theory.
Zimmermann is a shipper! Shippers know no mercy with the canon love interest! He also says in "Fragments" that the only thing the FS/MT marriage ever produced was Joseph, and she should have married Fritz, dammit! (The idea of gloating Franzl at the engagement party still makes me chortle.)
Zimmermann's legacy: causing multiple people to give signed testimonies on the state of Fritz' penis. I mean. Congrats? :P
It's one way to achieve immortality, to be sure. And hey - other monarchs didn't get signed testimonies on the state of their penis, and after their death, too! Here, too, he is der Einzige.
And of course it's Voltaire's fault in the end.
One thing the feuding publishing Fritz fans always agree on: Voltaire was an ungrateful son of a bitch who broke their guy's heart and is to blame for his bad reputation ever since.
(A late carrier on of this tradition is Charlotte Pangels with her 1970s book on Fritz' siblings, which features completely straight Fritz, because she says Voltaire's totally unfounded slander is the only "proof" ever that Fritz had a non-straight thought in his life, and other than Voltaire no one believed it of him while Fritz was alive, either, so there. A few chapters later, we get to here about completely straight Heinrich and his heterosexual affairs, too.)
Barbarina: well, sort of. To quote German wiki: Nicht lange danach errichtete die nunmehrige Gräfin ein Stift zum Unterhalt 18 adeliger lediger Damen und einer Supriorin. Diese mussten aus dem schlesischen Adel stammen; zudem musste eine Hälfte der evangelischen, die andere Hälfte der katholischen Religion angehören. Barberina, die inzwischen 68 Jahre alt geworden war, hielt ein Jahrzehnt strengste Ordnung unter ihren Stiftsdamen, bis sie 1799 urplötzlich auf ihrem Gut in Barschau an einem Herzschlag verstarb. Die von ihr gegründete Stiftung für arme adelige Fräulein bestand noch mehr als 100 Jahre bis zum Ersten Weltkrieg.
ZOMG Neumann, what a find! Congrats. This is priceless. A true gem. And ah, job rivalries never change.
Zimmermann is a shipper! Shippers know no mercy with the canon love interest! He also says in "Fragments" that the only thing the FS/MT marriage ever produced was Joseph, and she should have married Fritz, dammit! (The idea of gloating Franzl at the engagement party still makes me chortle.)
Zimmermann's legacy: causing multiple people to give signed testimonies on the state of Fritz' penis. I mean. Congrats? :P
It's one way to achieve immortality, to be sure. And hey - other monarchs didn't get signed testimonies on the state of their penis, and after their death, too! Here, too, he is der Einzige.
And of course it's Voltaire's fault in the end.
One thing the feuding publishing Fritz fans always agree on: Voltaire was an ungrateful son of a bitch who broke their guy's heart and is to blame for his bad reputation ever since.
(A late carrier on of this tradition is Charlotte Pangels with her 1970s book on Fritz' siblings, which features completely straight Fritz, because she says Voltaire's totally unfounded slander is the only "proof" ever that Fritz had a non-straight thought in his life, and other than Voltaire no one believed it of him while Fritz was alive, either, so there. A few chapters later, we get to here about completely straight Heinrich and his heterosexual affairs, too.)
Barbarina: well, sort of. To quote German wiki: Nicht lange danach errichtete die nunmehrige Gräfin ein Stift zum Unterhalt 18 adeliger lediger Damen und einer Supriorin. Diese mussten aus dem schlesischen Adel stammen; zudem musste eine Hälfte der evangelischen, die andere Hälfte der katholischen Religion angehören. Barberina, die inzwischen 68 Jahre alt geworden war, hielt ein Jahrzehnt strengste Ordnung unter ihren Stiftsdamen, bis sie 1799 urplötzlich auf ihrem Gut in Barschau an einem Herzschlag verstarb. Die von ihr gegründete Stiftung für arme adelige Fräulein bestand noch mehr als 100 Jahre bis zum Ersten Weltkrieg.
ZOMG Neumann, what a find! Congrats. This is priceless. A true gem. And ah, job rivalries never change.
Browsing through Nicolai's anti-Zimmermann book is a headache because the printing quality is so smudged and bad (in addition to the font used)
Ugh. I'm sorry. Thank you for taking one for the team!
(Well, not to me at any rate, as I'm not as systematically minded as Mildred with her maps.)
Haha, I admit, sometimes I get fascinated with numbers and locations, depending on the topic.
On the contrary, upstanding Protestant Katte would have done anything to prevent this.
Apparently, it was a deciding factor in his willingness to sacrifice his life! I too am impressed with this Nicolai.
Okay. Z. - he always calls him "Ritter von Z" or "Herr von Z", never writing out the last name and always using the "von" to mock Zimmermann's pride in his ennoblement
Hahaha, I approve.
As anyone with a brain in the publishing industry would know, even if you are refuting a charge, by listing it and talking about it you're just making sure more people hear about it.
Praeteritio!
(You, Mildred, quoted Banning on this, I think; Banning's source is Nicolai, because the phrasing is almost identical.)
Blanning cites Büsching for "The surgeon Gottlieb Engel, who helped to prepare Frederick’s body for burial, indignantly asserted that the royal genitalia were as “complete and perfect as those of any healthy man," and a 1921 article reprinting the 1790 signed testimony by the three medical officers. The 1921 author "adds that Frederick’s naked body lay for more than one and a half hours and was seen by at least a dozen people, none of whom noticed any genital deformity," so I think Blanning is one degree removed from Nicolai, but his ultimate source is Nicolai.
Because Nicolai is thorough, he also says readers (if they'd made it so far in this unsavoury subject)
Nicolai's readers: *are glued*
might wonder what the various people were doing checking Fritz' genitals close enough to look for scarring tissue. Well, says Nicolai, it's all that bastard Voltaire's fault, because he was the one who started the story of the botched operation in his slanderous writings, which everyone had read, so these guys were curious and had a look.
That's awesome, though! Because I've always been aware that I have no way to refute the hypothetical argument "But what if they just missed it because they weren't looking?"
But they were looking--that's perfect! :D
*is surprisingly excited that someone looked at someone else's penis closely*
Gossipy sensationalism has clearly reached a peak. :P
Also,cahn, chronology reminder: Voltaire's memoirs were published in 1784, Fritz died in 1786, meaning the medical officers have been reading bestsellers when they were published. :D
Remember, this is not in the 1752 pamphlet!
But he, Nicolai, talked to the late lady's son, Count Such and Such, and here reprints the son's testimony that his mother wasn't EC's lady-in-waiting during the first six months of EC's marriage (or later)
I see Nicolai and Koser are soul mates in some respects.
Nicolai mocks this, saying that it could be one of Bute's advisors is called MacSomething or the other, it's a very common name part in GB for someone to have, but there's no proof this is Barbarina's ex. As for the idea the Brits wouldn't have withdrawn funding from Fritz otherwise, pleaaaaaase.
It's just possible it was her ex? But much more likely it's a MacSomething (MacJemand? MacEtwas? How do you say this in German, I must know. :P)
And yeah, the claim that he single-handedly got Fritz's funding withdrawn? As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Thank you for the write-up!
Ugh. I'm sorry. Thank you for taking one for the team!
(Well, not to me at any rate, as I'm not as systematically minded as Mildred with her maps.)
Haha, I admit, sometimes I get fascinated with numbers and locations, depending on the topic.
On the contrary, upstanding Protestant Katte would have done anything to prevent this.
Apparently, it was a deciding factor in his willingness to sacrifice his life! I too am impressed with this Nicolai.
Okay. Z. - he always calls him "Ritter von Z" or "Herr von Z", never writing out the last name and always using the "von" to mock Zimmermann's pride in his ennoblement
Hahaha, I approve.
As anyone with a brain in the publishing industry would know, even if you are refuting a charge, by listing it and talking about it you're just making sure more people hear about it.
Praeteritio!
(You, Mildred, quoted Banning on this, I think; Banning's source is Nicolai, because the phrasing is almost identical.)
Blanning cites Büsching for "The surgeon Gottlieb Engel, who helped to prepare Frederick’s body for burial, indignantly asserted that the royal genitalia were as “complete and perfect as those of any healthy man," and a 1921 article reprinting the 1790 signed testimony by the three medical officers. The 1921 author "adds that Frederick’s naked body lay for more than one and a half hours and was seen by at least a dozen people, none of whom noticed any genital deformity," so I think Blanning is one degree removed from Nicolai, but his ultimate source is Nicolai.
Because Nicolai is thorough, he also says readers (if they'd made it so far in this unsavoury subject)
Nicolai's readers: *are glued*
might wonder what the various people were doing checking Fritz' genitals close enough to look for scarring tissue. Well, says Nicolai, it's all that bastard Voltaire's fault, because he was the one who started the story of the botched operation in his slanderous writings, which everyone had read, so these guys were curious and had a look.
That's awesome, though! Because I've always been aware that I have no way to refute the hypothetical argument "But what if they just missed it because they weren't looking?"
But they were looking--that's perfect! :D
*is surprisingly excited that someone looked at someone else's penis closely*
Gossipy sensationalism has clearly reached a peak. :P
Also,
cahn, chronology reminder: Voltaire's memoirs were published in 1784, Fritz died in 1786, meaning the medical officers have been reading bestsellers when they were published. :DRemember, this is not in the 1752 pamphlet!
But he, Nicolai, talked to the late lady's son, Count Such and Such, and here reprints the son's testimony that his mother wasn't EC's lady-in-waiting during the first six months of EC's marriage (or later)
I see Nicolai and Koser are soul mates in some respects.
Nicolai mocks this, saying that it could be one of Bute's advisors is called MacSomething or the other, it's a very common name part in GB for someone to have, but there's no proof this is Barbarina's ex. As for the idea the Brits wouldn't have withdrawn funding from Fritz otherwise, pleaaaaaase.
It's just possible it was her ex? But much more likely it's a MacSomething (MacJemand? MacEtwas? How do you say this in German, I must know. :P)
And yeah, the claim that he single-handedly got Fritz's funding withdrawn? As they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Thank you for the write-up!
By the way, via Volz' footnotes I found another Zimmermann refutation by the second chamber husar called Neumann (can be found here, written 1789)
OMGGGGG, that's awesome! Brilliant find! This is so great. I am snacking hard on my metaphorical popcorn as I watch this 1790s literary feud unfold. :D
Zimmermann's legacy: causing multiple people to give signed testimonies on the state of Fritz' penis. I mean. Congrats? :P
(A small part of) Voltaire's legacy: making them look.
Zimmermann's legacy: making them sign off on what they saw.
I'm dying. :'D
He also says the dog death during the Silesia revue was actually in 1784
Omg, of course we can't agree on the date. *headdesk*
I gather that STILL no one cares what happened to the dogs after Fritz died?
Indiscriminately defensive? Why would you ever think that?
LOLOLOL, he sounds awesome.
OMGGGGG, that's awesome! Brilliant find! This is so great. I am snacking hard on my metaphorical popcorn as I watch this 1790s literary feud unfold. :D
Zimmermann's legacy: causing multiple people to give signed testimonies on the state of Fritz' penis. I mean. Congrats? :P
(A small part of) Voltaire's legacy: making them look.
Zimmermann's legacy: making them sign off on what they saw.
I'm dying. :'D
He also says the dog death during the Silesia revue was actually in 1784
Omg, of course we can't agree on the date. *headdesk*
I gather that STILL no one cares what happened to the dogs after Fritz died?
Indiscriminately defensive? Why would you ever think that?
LOLOLOL, he sounds awesome.
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