cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

So, a little backstory here, if you want to imagine what it's like to be a generous person bailing me out of my own insane idea and to be getting emails from me, imagine getting an email from me that goes like this:

"Okay, I just shared a 20,000 word Google doc with you. It has all the plot but not enough feelings and some very thinly-sketched in scenes. You like shiny things, so here's an analogy. What I want to give Selena for Yuletide is this. What I've sent you is this. We have three weeks. Go!"

The idea of this analogy was twofold.

1) To establish an MO for collaborating. So, "There are parts of the fic that are inherent to the fic and that I'm attached to and that I want to stay. If you want to change or delete them, let's discuss first. That's the opal. Then there's the part where I just wrote some words so that it would read like a fic. That's the matrix. Please get rid of these parts at will (in suggestion mode, but you don't have to discuss them first)."

2) To assuage my self-consciousness about sending something this incomplete. Like, "I know these words are clumsy! I know these people aren't robots and should have feelings! If I had more time, I would fix a million things before letting a beta see it. But you're an alpha-and-beta, so please just don't judge me by thinking that I think these are great words that I am proud of. It's just there to convey the information you need to know in order for you to be able to make your contributions."

And then she made amaaaazing contributions, everyone!

Like the Mina and Heinrich scene. The purpose there is introduce Chekov's snuffbox (my idea) and to have Heinrich give himself away by being a terrible husband (cahn's idea).

Step 1: I wrote the core of the fight, where Mina says how much she misses AW and Fritz, and Heinrich says, "Oh, yeah? If you liked Fritz so much..." and Chekov's snuffbox is revealed. Then Mina comes back later and the Glasow/Heinrich connection is revealed (with ominous words that make sense in context).

Step 2: Cahn supplied a whole beginning to the scene, where Mina is trying to come to terms with Fritz's death on top of AW's, missing AW as a person, deciding to comfort Heinrich, going to Heinrich, saying all the wrong things, and getting rejected. She also introduced Heinrich's violin and other little details, etc.

Step 3: I bulk delete cahn's words and replace them with words of my own in which Mina is trying to come to terms with Fritz's death on top of AW's, missing AW as a person, deciding to comfort Heinrich, etc. I also added some things, like her maternal feelings toward FW2 (because I wanted to link that to AW leaving her the kids, which I wanted to introduce because it makes Heinrich's anger more understandable in context, especially since I couldn't provide the whole backstory of forced marriage, etc.) I inserted bits and pieces of cahn's phrasing into what I was writing, but most of that scene is mine--but you can see how much structure was hers.

Step 4: Profit!

*Knowing* that Mina and Heinrich should not be talking heads doing nothing but advancing the plot, and Mina should be grieving AW, etc., because duh, and *actually having* text, however rough, to work with, are radically different in terms of my ability to knock out a scene by the deadline. So cahn's contributions are *massive* and far beyond the total word count of which of her words remained in the final draft.

The funny part was that I would often then write a paragraph justifying why I *had* to write the scene the way I did, and more likely than not mildred would be like, "yeah, I was sure you would do that, of course it should be written like that." (The most glaring example of this was where I inserted the Letter of Doom at the climax. I was worried there was some reason she didn't want it there, but she said, no, she just didn't have time to put it in herself and was just trusting me to do that :) )

This was so funny, because it happened over and over again! The fact that I had my other self collaborating on this and didn't have to spell out everything I wanted was why we got this done in 2 weeks and had the last week free to hack away at the ending and to write treats.

Mildred did so much more than I did (we estimated a 90%/10% word ratio, not even counting the part where she wordsmithed a lot of my text) that I felt very uncomfortable being listed as a co-author

The funny part is that I've been trying to pressure you into accepting co-authorship credit for weeks because I'm very uncomfortable being listed as sole author. :D I did my best to credit you in the author's notes.

(we estimated a 90%/10% word ratio, not even counting the part where she wordsmithed a lot of my text)

NOT COUNTING the part where you were responsible for the STRUCTURE of scenes I bulk-deleted and regenerated or heavily rewrote in place, like Mina and all the opera parts. :P Not counting the part where after I sent you a 20k draft so rough I hadn't even reread it, I actually let you go over each scene before I revisited it. Not counting the part where, near the end, I was like, "Welp, not working on my fic today, because I'm just waiting on cahn to write the opera parts, and that's the only major thing left."

:D :D

This was an AMAZING experience, even better than last year (probably because my sleep, bad as it was, was a million times better than a year ago), and I can't thank you enough, other self.

Whereas this was just fun :)

It was SO much fun. And also very efficient when you can just trust your other self. <3

especially because mildred did all the parts I thought were hard

As with last year, I think I did all the easy parts! This is why we have such great collaborations. Though really, I can see why writing emotional reactions to someone else's plot developments is easier than writing the plot developments they have in mind, so I think we ended up with a really good division of labor here.

This was an AMAZING experience, even better than last year (probably because my sleep, bad as it was, was a million times better than a year ago), and I can't thank you enough, other self.

I also enjoyed it more than last year! I think on my end because the division of labor really worked for me, not least in terms of how much time and the specific types of brainpower I had available this year (for example, major self-editing/rewriting, which I always find draining if rewarding, was something I was just not in the mindset for this Yuletide, so the part where I could just write you stuff and have you edit/rewrite it was really nice for me), but also:

Though really, I can see why writing emotional reactions to someone else's plot developments is easier than writing the plot developments they have in mind, so I think we ended up with a really good division of labor here.

Part of it was the plot, yeah -- even though you'd supplied me with a detailed outline, it was the sort where I could tell you had even more detailed ideas in mind -- but even more, with you the plot and the history are intertwined so much, and I just don't have the minutiae (or, often, the bulk*) history at my fingertips like you and

selenak. But thanks to both of you (principally

selenak, of course), I have the characterization at my fingertips, and also, like you say, because you'd supplied me with all the plot text, it was super easy to write emotional reactions around whatever was going on in the plot.

Whereas you may remember that when I was writing "Counterpoint" (which you supplied the plot for) or "Survived" (which Wilhelmine supplied the plot for) every two paragraphs or so I'd run into where I was inadvertently writing some sort of anachronism, or hanging a plot point on something that wasn't historically accurate. I mean, I'm very proud of those fics, but I feel like they were very... inefficient?... to write because I kept having to run things by you and then change them. Whereas the way "Grind" was set up was the most efficient in both directions! :D

I must confess (well, I've told you this before) that I also really liked being able to write/structure the emotional parts to exactly fit my id :) IDK how you felt about that, since I know our ids aren't always kept in the same place -- apparently it didn't bother you too much :) So that was a really nice present for me <3

* At times I did what I told mildred was a great job as a beta reader who knew nothing about the fandom, despite having been in it for more than a year *facepalm* Which was useful! Since she wanted it to be accessible to someone who wasn't in the fandom! But still sort of embarrassing.

Edited 2021-01-02 18:17 (UTC)

every two paragraphs or so I'd run into where I was inadvertently writing some sort of anachronism, or hanging a plot point on something that wasn't historically accurate.

I also made mistakes, note! But yes, I can see why the other approach was more efficient and enjoyable for both of us.

Whereas the way "Grind" was set up was the most efficient in both directions! :D

:D As you may have seen, I wrote a post on how "plot first, feels later" may actually be the most efficient way for me to write, and I discovered that only because of your offer to help, so if I'm right, there may be more meaty fic from me in the future. (Not this month, though.)

IDK how you felt about that, since I know our ids aren't always kept in the same place -- apparently it didn't bother you too much :)

Well, like we discussed, when writing gifts, I don't mind sticking in things that I think or know will appeal to the other person if I'm neutral on them. And this was a gift for both of you. <3 So putting in a curtsy for you, for example, was fine. If I felt strongly about something, I pushed back, which is why the dream didn't make it in. (I agree that we could have compromised on something if we'd had more than 24 to go, lol.)

I had a fantastic time, and I'm glad the division of labor worked for you as well. (Me: but writing the plot + history first is the easy part! It practically writes itself! Which is how you got a completely plotted 20k draft 2-3 days after I was wibbling about whether I was going to be able to finish in time.)

Now that we know this works, there may be other possible collaboration opportunities, though perhaps next time I will exercise better judgment about sleep + impending deadline + complexity of fic and not need you. (Cut out any one of those factors and I could have done it myself! But...all three were outside of my control. :P)

As felis pointed out in the comments, and as I was laughing about with cahn in email (and mob boss AU author on Facebook) even before story reveals, this is definitely the "Let's murder Fritz!" Yuletide. But as I pointed out, it's not the first time. We have:

Yuletide 2019, "Fiat Justitia": Fritz killed in a fit of anger by a close family member, Wilhelmine has to go on a quest for revenge.

Yuletide 2020, "Grind": Fredersdorf tries to convince Fritz that his taste in short-term boyfriends is F-, Fritz doesn't listen, Fritz is murdered by a boyfriend plus a close family member, Wilhelmine has put on her detective hat and also go on a quest for posthumous revenge.

Yuletide 2020, "Valet": Fredersdorf tries to convince Fritz that his taste in short-term boyfriends is F-, Fritz doesn't listen, Fritz is murdered by a boyfriend, Fredersdorf has to put on his detective hat and also go on a quest for rescuing Fritz.

Honorable mention to Ferdinand the unimportant, who showed up in two fics.

Someday it would be great if we had Voltaire crusading for Fritz twice, once when he's dead and once when he's in prison. (Oh, the humiliation.) :D

Edited 2021-01-02 01:53 (UTC)

I feel proud to have started the "Let's kill Fritz!" trend. :) And would like to point out we haven't yet exhausted the possibilities. After all, I recall that back whwen I first read Fritz' letter to EC about her brother's death at Soor, I said there should be an Agatha Christie style murder mystery where everyone has a motive, Heinrich is the obvious red herring for who actually did it, but it was really EC the overlooked. Though more seriously, that would mean writing her as essentially an OC, because given all the data we have on her, I just can't see her do it, no matter how provoked. Unless in a mercy killing kind of way, and here's a scenario: as it turns out, there was a second time EC visited Sanssouci, in the weeks before Fritz' death. She saw in how much pain he was, and and remembers how basically FW lived like this for a decade (which she saw a lot of, given she lived with the in-laws mostly for the first few years of her marriage when Fritz was still stationed at Ruppin), and when he's all "I just want to die", for the first time opening up emotionally to her, she's resolved to help him. That's the only way I can see it happening and still be in character for EC.

AHAHAHAHA yes EC should totally be the Agatha Christie killer. Since we're super branching into AU now, I would be up for that in an AU! (If all of them lived in the twentieth century, perhaps EC wouldn't be so... EC?)

Awwww, though, I like your mercy killing idea. <3 :(

In the 20th century, probably not, but then again, in the later 20th Century, Western World, you'd have to find a reason why Fritz would marry EC to begin with. The mobster AU author did it by making the Hohenzollern a mobster family, but if Fritz is simply the son of a rich workoholic CEO, his father doesn't have the same kind of life and death power over him, and he could just leave and start his own firm somewhere else once life with Dad became unbearable.

Fritz dies shortly after becoming king. Grief-stricken EC devotes her life to alchemy. Half mad alchemist EC travels back in time to save his life. He treats her like shit. She strangles him on the spot. Frames Georgii.

The time wars with Fredersdorf begin. :D

Man, this title makes me laugh but also hungry every time I see it. I should have picked a different one. :P

A couple comments I wanted to reply to here instead of AO3, for greater visibility.

selenak: good to know that in the modern world, Catherine can resort to divorce and still get to be CEO instead of having to use the, err, traditional method.

The modern setting is a fix-it for some things and a break-it for others.

Fixed: Stigma-free no fault divorce for women.

Broken: Fritz has access to Slack and text messages and expects round-the-clock instantaneous responses. Can you imagine? 18th century people, you didn't know how good you had it with the postal service. ;)

:D

cahn: Thank you for this delightful snippet of Corporate AU, I would love to see more in this universe :D

My immediate response: If I write a fic that picks up immediately where this one left off, it's going to be titled "Kaphengst Kommt" and rated M. ;)

More seriously, thoughts that suggest themselves:
- First Polish Partition on the Europe trip with Catherine.
- Catherine being shocked to find that her kids are being raised with Poniatowski-influenced values instead of only hers.
- Fritz/Mike, where Mike is the CFO but also so much else. <3
- Mike talks a reluctant Fritz into therapy?
- Okay, but I'm serious about the Kaphengst porn. :P

And who knows what else. But I also want to study German and French and Voltaire and write a Voltaire/Heinrich showdown sequel to a certain other fic, so who knows what 2021 will bring. :D I still haven't given up hope on that fix-it fic where everyone escapes to France!

In the meantime, I'm delighted my rushed last-minute borderline crackfic brought the chortles and the giggles it was intended to. You two are the best of readers and commenters!

Fixed: Stigma-free no fault divorce for women.

Broken: Fritz has access to Slack and text messages and expects round-the-clock instantaneous responses. Can you imagine? 18th century people, you didn't know how good you had it with the postal service. ;)

Good lord yes, no kidding. However, his various employees, relations and friends are spared whenever he and Voltaire are texting at each other, clearly, because then no one else exists!

Meanwhile, Lehndorff is an earnest blogger with good descriptions (who can be snarky on occasion, such as when posting a snapshot showing Kaphengst's double chin in a photo featuring Heinrich in Las Vegas) who is into lengthy emails more than texts but who got on twitter just to follow Heinrich there.

Broken: Fritz has access to Slack and text messages and expects round-the-clock instantaneous responses. Can you imagine?

Ooooof. Yeah, I bet Heinrich's batteries are dying a lot. (Fritz is like, you should get a new phone! No, you can't expense it.)

- Okay, but I'm serious about the Kaphengst porn. :P

Hahahahaha so that's what I was expecting when you said you were thinking about Heinrich/Kaphengst, and why I said I'd be OK for a treat but not for an assignment, and why I didn't realize it was you :P (I had a LOT of reasons for not thinking it was you, okay.) And similarly, Heinrich/Kaphengst porn is fine as long as I get alllll the politics and corporate dysfunction :D

write a Voltaire/Heinrich showdown sequel to a certain other fic

Really???? I AM HERE FOR THIS.

Yeah, I bet Heinrich's batteries are dying a lot.

And not just his! I bet Fritz just thinks he's way better at battery life management than *anyone* else (naturally), because other people's are always dying. :P

Hahahahaha so that's what I was expecting when you said you were thinking about Heinrich/Kaphengst, and why I said I'd be OK for a treat but not for an assignment, and why I didn't realize it was you :P

I'm perfectly capable of adjusting my id when writing for other people! It's a compromise.

write a Voltaire/Heinrich showdown sequel to a certain other fic

Really???? I AM HERE FOR THIS.

Yes, I told Selena we should plot this out in salon and see what happens, but NOT NOW.

hahahaha OMG Fritz probably writes frequent emails to All Staff all the time Re: Tips to Keep Your Batteries Lasting Longer. Some of these tips are actually completely incorrect but hey, he does them and his batteries last longer than everyone else's, so...

Fritz is like, you should get a new phone! No, you can't expense it.

Fritz probably writes frequent emails to All Staff all the time Re: Tips to Keep Your Batteries Lasting Longer. Some of these tips are actually completely incorrect but hey, he does them and his batteries last longer than everyone else's,

Lol, OMG, these are the BEST ideas and I might have to steal one or both! :D

Well, they were for you!

I had a LOT of reasons for not thinking it was you, okay.

I meant to say, yes, yes, you had many valid reasons, I just think it will never not be funny, is all. :D :P

Fritz is like, you should get a new phone! No, you can't expense it.

Okay, Fritz refusing expense requests is totally going in. :P Salon is where all the best ideas come from. :)

I wanted to comment on a particular comment here, because it delighted me so much:

January 1758? That's too early! And why is Glasow still around? What's the point of the Leuthen divergence? ....and then I arrived at the Alcmene pov scene and the penny dropped. ZOMG. Romulus and Remus indeed. (I also could see the point of the Leuthen divergence immediately. Aside from pushing Wilhelm even more, it gives Heinrich an additional reason to feel guilty and project on to Friedrich (not to mention a legitimate reason to hate on Fritz some more.

The whole AU aspect of this fic was very complicated. On top of that, the summary was the hardest and most successful one I've ever written. I decided to open with "January 1758" and Wilhelm's death, because I knew you would *immediately* pick up on it being too early, and that would tell you something about the way in which it was canon-divergent, beyond the tag just saying it was.

Then there was the Leuthen divergence.

Well,

cahn can tell you, I did everything in my power to avoid this. I wanted the point of divergence to be "How dark is Heinrich?" such that the divergence is him being the kind of person who decides to kill Fritz.

But then, by wanting to make it a mystery, I added new constraints, namely: I wanted it disguised as suicide, and I wanted Wilhelmine to have long enough to live to travel to Berlin and play detective. I toyed with having her show up, charge Amalie with finding out what happened, and die. But I didn't like that, I wanted the sisters to team up.

But *you* try finding a point during the Seven Years' War in which Heinrich is motivated to kill Fritz, Wilhelmine still has at least several months to live and it's at least a little bit plausible that she traveled to Berlin, and the military situation is bad enough that Fritz's death can be passed off as suicide (because no one's going to believe it was *just* Wilhelm's death). Between AW's death and Wilhelmine's death are only 4 months, and the military situation is looking pretty up for Prussia.

I tried everything. And I eventually gave up and had to mess with the military situation.

And because I'm me and I dislike randomness, I incorporated it into the fic such that it puts extra pressure on Heinrich (he's still intentionally slightly OOC, but there's also more external motivation for him compared to canon) and is the result of a different single point of divergence: Glasow not getting locked up. So I'm glad that paid off for you in terms of added character motivation.

And *then*, when all was said and done, I had to figure out how to write a summary that would make it clear this was a mystery-and-drama (and thus appeal to mystery lovers) without letting on about Fritz's death! So I totally cheated, like those movie trailers that cut and splice things that don't go together. "Amalie and Wilhelmine team up to find out what really happened to their brother," lol. It's true but also a total lie of omission, and it makes me laugh every time. The whole summary is a LIE, although every word is true. :D

Also, this is hilarious and I can't resist sharing: I know how

selenak is always tickled by Fritz writing nearly verbatim letters to different people, so I made good use of that in this fic. And when Wilhelmine realizes that the "suicide note" is almost verbatim the same as a portion of the "not my fault!" letter she got from Fritz,

cahn wrote this in a comment on the draft:

Fritz's frugality! Being frugal is a good quality! ...I guess. If you're murdered.

This still makes me laugh.

I also found the textual aspects of this fic to be rewarding to write: not only are there a lot of letters bouncing around (Heinrich's letter to AW that leads him to start refusing food, Amalie's canonical letter to Fritz that she's worried pushed him over the edge, our favorite Fredersdorf letter--I couldn't resist--etc.), but Fritz writes two specific texts that are important to the plot. One, the very similar letters to Wilhelmine and Heinrich, the text of which gets used as a trigger for his murder, a faked suicide note, *and* the key to Wilhelmine realizing he was murdered. Two, that poem about wanting to be die for Wilhelmine, and failing that, to be buried with her, which leads Amalie to believe she understands why he committed suicide, misleads Wilhelmine into silently telling Fritz that he may have died for Heinrich instead (well, yes, but differently!), and leads to Fritz and Wilhelmine being buried together with the dogs. (Even in this darkest of fics, I couldn't resist fixing one thing. And yes, FW2 not calling the shots is key here-I don't think Heinrich can risk drawing attention to his resentment by burying Fritz anywhere other than where he'd made it really clear he intended to go.)

In summary, one text to make you understand why someone would want to murder Fritz, and another to make you realize he wasn't a complete monster.

And yes,

cahn, this was always meant to be the trigger behind Heinrich's decision, and I did trust you to put it in (it would have been there by the time you saw it, if you hadn't been given such an early draft). Other self indeed. :)

The war not ending with the return of Silesia: yeah, this wasn't me thinking, "What would be the most logical outcome?", it was me thinking, "For plot and character reasons, the ~~show~~ war *must* go on--how can I make it happen?" And I lucked out that East Prussia was occupied in January 1758 (and of course, that the alliances, balance of power issues, and the war itself have gathered a momentum that transcends Fritz's misogynistic remarks).

Carel was likewise me wanting a named character with some kind of a backstory, and thanks to Selena's Fahlenkamp research, having one! He only needed a small rescue, and so I didn't have to tie it to the rest of the divergence. Hi, Carel, you get a fix-it in this bleak fic too!

Catt showing up a few months early was less my wanting a token decoy suspect (also that, but it was pretty obvious, as sub_divided said, that it wasn't him) and more me wanting a canonical source for Fritz talking about his poison, combined with my inability to resist taking a dig at Catt being self-important but not murderous. :P I'm still holding a grudge, okay!

The line about acting like he had as much right to consider himself the bereaved as Amalie was a

cahn-supplied line, though, and a good one it is. :)

All in all, this was a doozy to write, and a great experience that I feel I grew as a writer from. It was also *awesome* collaborating with

cahn and getting to watch

selenak pick up on all the little things, as always. <333

Edited 2021-01-02 01:57 (UTC)

The line about acting like he had as much right to consider himself the bereaved as Amalie was a [personal profile] cahn-supplied line, though, and a good one it is. :)

Oh wait, it was? I wrote you a comment earlier about how great I thought that line was, oops :) What can I say, I guess I like my own lines! :D

...I thought it was? But now I'm second-guessing. I mean, I remember writing up to the part about Catt making it all about him, but for the last couple weeks I've been seeing the part about considering himself the bereaved, having no memory of writing it, and thinking, "Good job, cahn!"

But given my recent state of mind, it's entirely possible I wrote it in a sleep-deprived, deadline-driven frenzy, had forgotten by the next morning that I wrote it, and attributed it to you. :)

Speaking of sleep-deprivation, here I am on 4-5 hours again. :( As I hinted recently to

cahn, I might have to extend my salon hiatus into January. This is frustrating, because I still have a backlog of comments to reply to, plus a growing list of things I'm encountering in my reading (or questions that came up during YT fic writing!) and want to talk about, but this month, I need to focus on fixing my sleep, putting in more hours at work, and studying German.

My hope, though, is to get to the point where I can read ~~Katte~~ salon-relevant books in German at a reasonable speed, and then I should have *plenty* to talk about, sleep permitting. (I guess it'll be a race to see if my German or my sleep fixes itself first, lol.)

Anyway, I will try to be around a little bit, but whenever you don't hear from me, imagine me heads-down on German investing as hard as I can in our future salon goodness. :)

ahahahaha actually I think maybe I did write it? As you know, my memory is just... always awful :P

Sorry about your sleep :( Yes, get sleep and work and German fixed up!

Bringing another comment over here, since relevant: I'd thought that I'd come across Lehdnorff describing Amalie not just in selenak's description, but in the actual journal, and yes in fact it was one of the last entries I had read before giving it up for Yuletide. :D

1753: June 9th
I go to Schönhausen at 6 o'clock, where Princess Amalie also comes, who has a charming and extremely friendly nature. She is a lovable princess in every way. She is criticized in various ways, but I believe that this comes more from worries that she often has than from whims. Her looks are lovely, and I think she's the most beautiful woman in the world. She is not tall, a little stout, but at the same time of an appearance that impresses everyone, and you can see her soul size in her whole being. One would always recognize her among a hundred people and note her royal ancestry. Her eyes are gorgeous, which she has in common with all her illustrious family, her mouth is small and gives her an infinite grace when she speaks; in short, she is extraordinarily gracious.

Ah yes, the first entry on her. He'll later change his mind on her extremely friendly nature, lol, but I think that entry conveys yet another way Amalie was similar to Fritz (aside from the sharp tongue, the musical talent, the size and the eyes) - when she tried, she could be very charming indeed and could make a great first impression. It's just that in later years, she tried less and less.

*nods* Yeah, I thought that was a little more positive than in your (overall) writeup :) Also: :( therapy for everyone, as mildred says. (I mean, I imagine some of that is just age! but I also imagine some of it is... her life. As mildred said in the fic.)

I just wanted to say that I was TICKLED by this passage in my gift:

"Accidents with shooting weapons happen all the time," Frederdorf said, which was true, though they usually happened in battle; soldiers who tried to reload an already loaded gun, for example. Besides, as a battle went on, the gun barrel accumulated with powder remnants from the previous rounds, which made them more difficult to manage and more prone to misfire. Guns exploding in their soldier's hands were unfortunately not an uncommon occurence.

Seeing as how I had written this in salon in late October:

no matter how much you drill in peacetime, you're under tremendous stress when the bullets are flying around you, and you're very likely to make mistakes. And if you're relying on muscle memory, and miss a step, you might very well reload an already loaded gun, not realizing that you haven't fired, or that the last attempt to fire was unsuccessful and the gun is still loaded, and then, boom!

It was also common for soldiers in the front lines to be taken down by misfires from behind.

Also, as the battle went on and the gun barrel accumulated with powder remnants from the previous rounds, the guns became more difficult to manage and more prone to misfires.

I was like, hmm, this extremely anonymous author clearly follows me closely. :D

I emailed

cahn when I read this to go, "Isn't salon greeeeat?"

She also emailed me, as she said, when she saw your Ferdinand line in "Crown", only a couple hours before I would have emailed her about the same thing (because I had read it on my phone but not yet found my way to a computer yet).

Magical alchemy. <3

It was a good description, what can I say. :)

BTW, I was chuffed that both you and

cahn spotted the half a sentence about Heinrich advising AW to start his own war in Fredersdorf's timeline. I just couldn't resist. In addition to the whole similarity of temperament and talents, there's this: if Fritz dies in the summer of 1741, Heinrich most likely really doesn't have negative memories of him. (Unless Heinrich was the brother visiting and raiding the larder, but even then, he was young enough to maybe not have noticed how ticked off Fritz was, unless they both responded like in my emojis.) And no idea of how negatively Fritz would have impacted the lives of his siblings. Or how his ability to piss off half of Europe would result in Prussia's political isolation. No, Fritz is probably a (dead) hero to him, more an example to follow (instead of a warning example) than anything else.

As I mentioned in my reply to Mildred's comments, when writing I did consider Fritz figuring out the truth just before the last of older Fredersdorf is gone, but refrained for various reasons - there was enough angst already, and Frederick the Great should not find out time travel to alter the past was possible. (And Heinrich better not find out there was a timeline where AW was King etc.) Mildred said yes, but otoh she wouldn't mind reading stories where he does, and/or the time wars between Fritz and Heinrich.

Now, leaving aside what Heinrich would do for the moment, let's focus on Fritz: if he got a hold on the potion Saint-Germain and Fredersdorf co-invent in this story, where would he go? Because of the forgetting factor, chances are he only could do it once, and would have a limited amount of time before he's forgotten why he came. The obvious temptation is to save Katte's life, but how? Also, there are other factors to consider, such as: if Katte does not get executed in Küstrin while Fritz is a prisoner there, Fritz and Fredersdorf likely never meet, and Fredersdorf stays an obscure soldier in some backwards regiment. And of course, depending on when Fritz goes back (i.e. how long has he been King until then?) - if he tries for a scenario where he does successfully escape with Katte after all (by not writing that fatal letter, by making his escape attempt much earlier during the South German tour with Dad, etc.), he'd have to consider he won't become King, and I have a hard time imagining later day Fritz, who has tasted power, creating a world where he'll be powerless even for love.

So, if the aim of the time travel is to save Katte, I could imagine two alternate things:

- he goes back to when they started to become friends and snubs Katte unforgivably instead, unleashing the full cruel-tongued Old Fritz on him. No friendship with Katte = Katte lives, whether in Prussia or elsewhere, and Fritz still becomes King. Fritz may or may not also use the brief time he has to contact Schwerin and ask for Fredersdorf to be transfered to Potsdam if he can engineer that without making Dad suspicious

- he kills FW by opium, err, in some way not traceable to him. Then he becomes King, and can keep Katte and Wilhelmine. (May or may not use the limited time to ask for a Fredersdorf transfer as well.) The problem here is that Fritz in rl even under the most dire provocation never seems to have considered killing FW, but hey, if Heinrich gets to be a fratricide in an AU despite not having made any move in that direction in rl, Fritz becoming a patricide can also be on.

Lastly: or older Fritz, who now knows a thing or two about MT, doesn't do anything Katte related at all with that time travel potion and instead goes back to give the order to march to Vienna in 1741. That would be a Fritz during the 7 Years War travelling back. :)

Edited 2021-01-02 06:15 (UTC)

BTW, I was chuffed that both you and [personal profile] cahn spotted the half a sentence about Heinrich advising AW to start his own war in Fredersdorf's timeline.

And now you know we spent quite a lot of time on Heinrich becoming Fritz, so there was no way I wasn't going to notice that and remark on it :D Salon hive mind strikes again! I didn't think of the non-negative memories thing, though!

Mildred said yes, but otoh she wouldn't mind reading stories where he does, and/or the time wars between Fritz and Heinrich.

Time wars between Fritz and Heinrich...???? !!!! this is a thing I can have? YES PLEASE where do I sign up???? (Time wars between anybody? MT finds out about time travel too? They start tearing up the timeline between them? I AM THERE)

I am also really intrigued to the possibilities you've set out for Fritz here, especially that he wouldn't give up power for love. That first possibility, where he gives up Katte entirely (at least for then?) but Katte lives is so interesting to me (and will Fritz write a note to himself to talk to Katte in the future after he becomes king, but what will Katte think??) -- although I am going to bet my hat (except that I had to eat it when it turned out mildred was the author of Corporate AU) that mildred will 1000% prefer Option 2. (Which I admit is way more satisfying.)

But Option 3 would also be Something Else :D (Love or Vienna? Hmm. :) )

Well, being me, my instinct is to go with Option 1. It seems the “Katte lives!” AUS that appeal to me most are of the “break it differently” type. Because for starters, I doubt a Katte fully exposed to Old Fritz before he has the chance to fall in love with Young Fritz will fall in love with him, full stop. Or see staying in Prussia as a viable career option, if the future King hates him. So my guess is he’ll renew his efforts to get Dad and Grandpa Wartensleben’s support for an honorable dismissal so he can move to England and try his luck there. Which means he arrives just in time to meet longing-for-a-friend Fritz of Wales and befriend him instead of Lord Hervey doing the same. Meaning he’ll end up involved with Hannover crazy instead of Hohenzollern crazy, but at least the former isn’t deadly!

I see our ids continue to lead us in opposite directions. :)

You want to break it differently, whereas my urges to fix ALL the things have gotten so out of control that the escape-to-France no-absolute-power AU went from Fritz+Katte+Keith to Fritz+Katte+Keith+Wilhelmine+Suhm+Duhan (Duhan to keep Fritz from going crazy and breaking his cover while he waits for the others to trickle in one by one).

I will read yours and undoubtedly tell you what a great author you are, but I'm afraid I am (predictably and as predicted) DNWing Fritz being mean to Katte for an exchange. In return, have some fratricidal, filling-the-Fritz-vacuum Heinrich from me. :)

Oh, I never doubted which option you’d want, and I would write such a story for someone else, but consider the delicious angst and sacrifice if time travelling Fritz does this knowing it’s the only way to ensure Katte will live!

(Lord Hervey, appalled: Wait a minute. If Katte gets that worst of traitors, Fritz of Wales, does this mean that instead of going home to England, I end up in Berlin?!? I hate German politics! And frankly, while FW and G2 are on the same level of appalling in my opinion, Queen Caroline is a vastly preferable patroness to SD. Not to mention: what about my friendship with Lady Mary? Our love triangle with Algarotti?

Self: You keep complaining that Fritz of Wales was a tool with terrible taste and no brains in your memoirs. Let me assure you, Fritz of Prussia is the opposite. And you can have your love triangle with Algarotti, don’t worry about it. Just without Lady Mary as the third party - sorry, but I won’t condemn her to life in FW’s Prussia.)

Incidentally, if it’s the same method of time travel, i.le. Fritz will forget all about the other time line once he’s accomplished the key change, he’ll make a flight attempt anyway, just not with Katte as support. Don’t worry, this isn’t an AU where Peter Keith dies instead, because Peter is still at Wesel and thus able to get away in time. But maybe Fritz will try to persuade Hervey to take him along as diplomatic luggage, thus creating international incident because Hervey is not FW’s subject so if they’re caught, that personal combat challenge between FW and G2 is back on!

ETA: about Heinrich - as wonderful as my present was, and it was very wonderful, I am inm general somewhat invested in keeping him and Fritz alive at the same time so they can have their fanatastically screwed up relationship. Though you know, my big suspension of disbelief in “Grind” wasn’t Heinrich going for the kill under these very specific circumstances and then covering it up the way he does, but earlier, Heinrich trying to convince Fritz to take AW back by pointing out Fritz’ own mistakes post AU Leuthen. I mean, I know why it’s dramatically necessary that he does! I agree with the necessity! But given how he behaved towards Fritz during the war in rl, I needed, as mentioned to suspend some disbelief.

Edited 2021-01-02 20:40 (UTC)

thus creating international incident because Hervey is not FW’s subject so if they’re caught, that personal combat challenge between FW and G2 is back on!

Lol! Lol to the whole thing, which I will definitely read and comment on.

I am inm general somewhat invested in keeping him and Fritz alive at the same time so they can have their fanatastically screwed up relationship.

Noted. Part of the challenge here was trying to come up with something that you hadn't already done better on the screwed up Fritz+Heinrich front.

But given how he behaved towards Fritz during the war in rl, I needed, as mentioned to suspend some disbelief.

Oh, I had to suspend some disbelief as well, believe me. (And

cahn called out this line as well.) For a while, this fic was tagged "Deliberately OOC for dark AU purposes" for precisely this reason: I needed Heinrich to not exactly be our Heinrich, whom I have difficulty imagining giving me this exact plot.

Will keep them alive in future gifts to you, though!

and I would write such a story for someone else

By which you mean me, right?? :D (Okay, there are other stories I want before this one, but as I said, I'd definitely be fascinated by this. As you know, I also like things being broken differently!)

Hee, Heinrich & Fritz is definitely the most fascinating of relationships, and like Voltaire says in "Grind," it's no fun when one can't actually fight with the other because he's dead :P (Though of course "Grind" turned out to be much less Heinrich than one might think from a synopsis of the plot -- hopefully you enjoyed all the Amalie & Wilhelmine :D But it is also really really good to know what you would like in the future and I highly approve of knowing things like this :) ) And yes, as mildred says, I flagged that bit as well as something where I had to suspend disbelief :)

I loved all the Amalie & Wilhelmine, which was one of the prompts/requests I had which was afraid would never be fulfilled!

Re: future fic -more seriously, I try not to repeat myself, so no time travel in my immediate writing future, though once I have some temporal (ha!) distance and can approach the subject from a new angle, who knows?

Something not completely unrelated to write as a crackfic treated seriously: Frederician Christmas Carol, starring Fritz as Scrooge, of course. He even comes with a wary nephew (future FW2), and you can make the case for either Katte or Wilhelmine as the ghost of Christmas Past. The dialogue with either would have to contain "if I could change the past, I would" ideas.

Ghost of Christmas Future: Napoleon, who in 1806 will defeat Prussia and thus end the Fritz started legend of Prussian invincibility and what's left of Frederician Prussia for good. (Of course Prussia gets back to European superpower status once Napoleon is defeated, but it's a changed Prussia with no more Frederician enlightenment ideas and lots of religious traditionality instead, but otoh a reformed army which has taken all the changes since Fritz' time into account instead of just relying on his reputation.) Victorious Napoleon visiting Fritz' tomb - the one Fritz didn't want to lie in, next to Dad in a church! - is a sight sure to shock Fritz the way his tomb shocked Scrooge!

I can't decide on the Ghost of Christmas Present and who gets to be Bob Cratchit, though. Lucchesini for the later? (Fredersdorf is dead and Catt is out of favor.) Heinrich is telling me "don't you dare!" at my tentatively eying him as Bob Cratchit, abused but loyal employe, while EC is eagerly saying she'd like to be Bob Cratchit, but I can't see that, either...

ETA: Marley, though? Is going to be MT. "Maria Theresia was dead, to begin with", and instead of a doorknob, that portrait of hers which Fritz kept in his study is going to talk to him.

Edited 2021-01-03 08:58 (UTC)

Hee! But it would have to end differently from canon Christmas Carol, no? Or is this going to be an AU where Fritz is scared into being nicer for a while?

Like Wilhelmine, Fritz doesn't believe in ghosts or prophetic dreams, so...maybe the former?

It's been too long since I read this: how much does the ghost have to talk vs. just squire him around? Can one of his dogs be the ghost of Christmas present?

Victorious Napoleon visiting Fritz' tomb - the one Fritz didn't want to lie in, next to Dad in a church! - is a sight sure to shock Fritz the way his tomb shocked Scrooge!

OMG yes. I'm torn between whether this makes Fritz realize the moral of the story is to be *nicer* to his nephew, versus confirming him in this belief that his nephew is The Worst. I mean, realistically the latter, 100%, but we *are* talking A Christmas Carol remake here...

that portrait of hers which Fritz kept in his study is going to talk to him.

I like it!

how much does the ghost have to talk vs. just squire him around? Can one of his dogs be the ghost of Christmas present?

It's been eons since I've read it, too, but I just looked it up, and the ghost just has to identify himself as what he is. Which presumably the dog could do as Fritz has gotten good at reading his dogs. :) (Also he or rather she could wear a knitted cheery Christmas outfit!)

I'm torn between whether this makes Fritz realize the moral of the story is to be *nicer* to his nephew, versus confirming him in this belief that his nephew is The Worst. I mean, realistically the latter, 100%, but we *are* talking A Christmas Carol remake here...

Well, there's that. :) Btw, what would be the worse shock in your opinion - finding his tomb to be sans dogs and with Dad in a church, or seeing a victorious French guy who's stolen his thunder as the biggest event in 18th century military matters and beaten Prussia stroll around there? (True, he might be mollified by Napoleon's admiring tribute to him on the later count, but he wouldn't be able to hear that for the vision to work as intended.) (BTW, FW2 was already dead by then as well, so can't be blamed for the Prussian defeat.)

Fritz: But Heinrich's ex Kalckreuth was alive and one of the generals involved! Heinrich's terrible taste in boyfriends: proven once again.

the ghost just has to identify himself as what he is.

Okay, yes, that's what I was thinking.

Which presumably the dog could do as Fritz has gotten good at reading his dogs. :)

Plus it helps that this isn't the first ghost, so he's at least got some context.

(Also he or rather she could wear a knitted cheery Christmas outfit!)

OMG, a dog in an 18th century Christmas sweater equivalent, that's HILARIOUS. :D

Fritz: I care about keeping my dogs warm! See also the last order I ever gave.

Btw, what would be the worse shock in your opinion - finding his tomb to be sans dogs and with Dad in a church, or seeing a victorious French guy who's stolen his thunder as the biggest event in 18th century military matters and beaten Prussia stroll around there?

Ooof. Probably the second one? He would be unhappy about the burial thing, but he didn't believe in an immortal soul, and part of the whole plan for a simple burial was "I have lived like a philosopher and I wish to be buried like a philosopher." So I think he would recognize it was more symbolic than actually significant. Not that he wouldn't be pissed off!

On the other hand. No, wait, I changed my mind. Fritz would have total schadenfreude over Prussia's defeat after his death. This is the guy who cared far more about outshining his predecessors and successors than about preparing FW2 for the sake of Prussia.

...This whole thing is just going to confirm in Fritz's mind that FW2 was the worst, and clearly FW3 (who was king during and for the decade leading up to the great defeat) was also unworthy, and only Fritz was right and should be in control of all the things.

And yes, I think Fritz would find a way to give FW2 50% of the blame for the defeat, for laying the groundwork by undoing all of Fritz's hard work. This is Fritz we're talking about. Remember, he "could complain in some regards about [Katte], and I do not believe to have wronged him," and I have an unsourced quote from a fairly reliable secondary source in which Fritz calls Katte "maladroit", presumably for screwing up the escape attempt.

And even if he left FW2 out of it, it's going to be super easy to blame FW3 and reinforce Fritz's conviction that he's always right.

Honestly, I really have a hard time seeing any of these visions convince Fritz to do anything but double down on being an autocrat. Doubling down was Fritz's specialty. The only thing I can think of that *might* work as a wake-up call a la Ebenezer Scrooge is first reminding Fritz of his "Sterbekittel" days, and then showing him the Holocaust, Nazi propaganda in his name, and how he got cancelled after 1945, before gradually being partially rehabilitated. (You could make a case for the Crown Prince days being the past, the wars he led as King being the present (even if chronologically some decades ago), and the 20th century being the future.)

And I don't know if you would feel up to writing that story and handling it sensitively, but it would definitely be tricky. Not that me finding a story beyond my skills has ever stopped you, O Great Author of our fandom. :)

More than tricky, and if I do get around to writing the Frederician Christmas Carol, I'd probably go more the crack fic route, where Fritz' idea of being nicer to his nephew is to okay Wilhelmine Encke as maitresse en titre (with state pension), which did happen, after all . :), and his idea of being nicer to everyone else is letting Heinrich go to Paris. Or it's the anti Carol where he indeed doubles down.

However, on a more serious note I agree the shock of Nazi propaganda and the Holocaust would do it. If you want to have a look at how Nazi propaganda using Fritz looked like, check out this scene of a vile example in question if you can bear to. It's from Der Große König, aka the "keep fighting, Germans, never mind that setback in Russia!" propaganda film, directed by Veit Harlan, who was a very efficient director for melodrama who also had started a second line in propaganda movies. (Jud Süß was the other.) Harlan had good actors at his disposal (including Otto Gebühr, who was the most popular Fritz actor of his day and had been since Weimar Republic movies made him loved in the role), and the whole thing is effective propaganda because it does use just enough recognizable historical elements to work on people vaguely remembering their school lessons while at the same time utterly distorting them. The scene in question, which is set post-Kunersdorf, goes roughly thusly:

Heinrich: ...we're fighting other Germans here. Do you really want the HRE to go?
Fritz: The HRE is a bankrupt institution which has to go. I'm all for German unity, but the Habsburgs have lost their right to lead it by promoting "many blooded" people in their empire along with Germans. It's a shame we've got to fight other Germans in order that a future Empire led by Germans can be founded, but historical destiny must unfold. BTW, you're now an ex Generalissimus, I'm taking command back. Shame we don't get along better, Heinrich.
Heinrich: Is if you'd ever had fraternal feelings in your life. ("Wann hätten Sie je brüderliche Gefühle gehabt" isn't paraphrase but a direct quote.
Fritz: *burns last will*: If I'd died at Kunersdorf, this document would have made you regent, I'd have entrusted it all to you. Good thing I didn't.
Heinrich *looking at the burning document*: You'd known all about shoving a brother aside and destroying him.
Fritz: I am A Great Man Of History, and you're those elements in the army who dare to doubt Great Men And Their Strategies. Watch me chew out my other generals next.
Generals: Your Majesty, we're screwed and should sue for peace.
Fritz: *asks all the famous generals, from Seydlitz to Ziethen, and not one is ready to side with him on continuing the fight*
Fritz: You're all wrong, and I'm right. We'll fight on. History will prove me right.

The Worst Fanboys, Watching: Harry Truman is totally going to write that fanboy letter any time now...

'd probably go more the crack fic route, where Fritz' idea of being nicer to his nephew is to okay Wilhelmine Encke as maitresse en titre (with state pension), which did happen, after all . :), and his idea of being nicer to everyone else is letting Heinrich go to Paris.

Haha, okay, that I could see! That would be awesome: Fritz being "nice" canonically and not involving a 180 from his normal personality.

Was totally thinking of Otto Gebühr and Stalingrad, yes. Ugh. Fucking worst fanboys. I endorse your crackfic idea!

I read like 3 more pages in Horowski just now and got to the following description of FW2: vom berühmten Onkel Friedrich fast absichtlich zur Unfähigkeit erzogen, die den Vorgänger umso heller strahlen lassen würde, which I translate as "almost intentionally raised by his famous uncle Friedrich to be incapable, which would allow his predecessor to shine all the more brightly." (As always, correct me if necessary.)

Uh huh. I don't think Fritz is upset enough about Jena-Auerstedt to reverse his treatment of FW2.

Also, in pasting your summary of FW2 to Rheinsberg this morning, I was reminded that you'd commented on the difference in the English and German wiki treatments of FW2. Did you notice the banner on the English one reading, "This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. The specific problem is: tendentious bias towards militaristic evaluation of frederick william"?

Fritz: That's my tendentious bias, thank you very much. Can I interest you in my opinion on my no-good, money-wasting, flute-playing grandfather?

You translated correctly. Re: English wiki entry - that hadn't been there yet the last time I checked! So clearly someone else noticed. :)

BTW, while Voltaire writing to Madame Denis he's got a soft spot for Fritz' badmouthed Granddad while proofreading the Histoire de la Maison de Brandenburg is inevitably one of the doctored 1750 - 1753 letters, I can't see any advantage in him inventing that observation post facto, so I'm guessing that observation was one he actually made back in the day. And I do wonder how Fritz reacted...

Ha, omg, yes, I could totally see Fritz deciding to be "nice."

Der Große König: wow and :( I can see how this could have been effective propaganda :(

I loved all the Amalie & Wilhelmine, which was one of the prompts/requests I had which was afraid would never be fulfilled!

<33 It wouldn't have been if I'd had to do a character study, which is why I bugged you into requesting AW, but once I had a plot, I was able to work them in without feeling like their characterization and interactions had to be worthy of a standalone story.

I'm glad it worked!

And yes, as mildred says, I flagged that bit as well as something where I had to suspend disbelief :)

As noted, I wrote myself into *several* corners with this fic. I didn't want to include this bit at all! The premise was supposed to be "dark!Heinrich kills Fritz" in something like our universe. As you know, I couldn't make this work, so I went for making him a slightly less dark (but still not our Heinrich) version with more pressure on him. But I wasn't thrilled with that.

Then I wanted to show his conflicting feelings about and loyalty to Fritz, because I know that's what you're there for, and I got as far as expressing my frustration to

cahn that my fic had made that basically impossible by making Fritz DEAD by the time Heinrich shows up, and she said, quite correctly, "You can't! It doesn't fit and we don't have time and Selena's already done that--it just has to be a dark AU." And she was right, but please know that I tried.

Several points during the writing, I had to argue with my internal editor that 1) you would understand the time crunch I was writing under, and 2) the strengths of the fic were just going to have to carry the story in spite of the weak points, and that there were enough strengths to carry the weaknesses I couldn't eliminate. I kept wanting to push back the beginning of the story to show Heinrich handling Fritz and how that was far less Heinrich's screw-up than Fritz's ability to twist anything around into criticism of himself when under enough stress (see also my opinion on the Albert condolence letter), but in lieu of enough time to develop that plot line, you got a "this Heinrich screwed up, moving on" in the first scene.

We'll just say Heinrich in this universe has less tolerance for Fritz's BS than canonically, and that leads to both the initial misjudgment and the willingness to authorize murder, and next time I'll try to write you the Heinrich of our universe. (The bug just bit me on this AU, and then I fenced myself into corner after corner in fleshing it out.)

I do think that with more time we could have finessed it a bit more so that it was a little more subtle of a miscalculation -- like, instead of Heinrich going on about how many mistakes Fritz made, just bringing up AW at the wrong time... but Fritz using that to double down on criticizing AW. But I know you (mildred) also wanted to show him as darker than our universe, so there were some competing things going on there.

"You can't! It doesn't fit and we don't have time and Selena's already done that--it just has to be a dark AU." And she was right, but please know that I tried.

I think you (selenak) can see how this got to be 30k! Mildred also debated putting in Louise to be nicer to Amalie:

as much as Louise would be perfect Watsonianly, I'm not sure a fic as tight as this can take another character. I'm not dead set against it

and I mercilessly squelched this idea too: I am dead set against Louise, I don't have the time to alpha-and-beta integrating her in :PP

But I don't even feel sorry, because a) neither of us DID have the time b) her idea to put in Amalie's Mental Health Day was brilliant and I'm really glad to have it :)

30k of awesomeness, and once again, I salute the both of you for this superb gift. And yes, Louise would have been one character too many. Good call!

With a little more time, we could have done SO many things! As it is, I'm just relieved (and very grateful to you) we finished in time at all.

I think you (selenak) can see how this got to be 30k!

Oh, lol, I'd forgotten Louise. Yeah, you can see how I'm a long-fic writer by nature.

her idea to put in Amalie's Mental Health Day was brilliant and I'm really glad to have it :)

I'm really glad it worked out! As you can see (selenak), it was added very late in the process (only the Voltaire scene was added later, I think), because the fic was just being brutal to Amalie, and she kept taking everything in stride like she was Hercule Poirot investigating the lives of strangers and didn't have stress-related illnesses or anything, when canonically she did, and that was without Fritz being assassinated in 1758 and Wilhelmine dying with Amalie at her bedside!

So I wanted a way to give the reader some sign that Amalie is struggling, and also give her some hurt/comfort (hence the Louise idea). The Tiergarten (poor former administrator Peter Keith is dead, alas) was perfect in allowing me to introduce her adopted waifs and give Frau Fredersdorf a plot-advancing cameo!

Which reminds me: I am almost SURE that you told us that Amalie had an interest in anatomy, but I couldn't find it when I went to research it. I kept her bird dissection lesson for the kids anyway, as it was too good not to include, even if I dreamed the part where her interest was canon. Is my memory correct?

Your memory is correct. It's from Lehndorff's diaries, a January 1758 entry, starting with "Vom exzentrischen Wesen der Prinzessin Amalie möchte ich an dieser Stelle noch etwas berichten".

Perfect, thank you! I felt that I couldn't possibly have made that up out of whole cloth, but I could have gotten something confused.

Anyway, I really enjoyed combining the two and having her remember the time she impromptu dissected a bird for the kids. I like to think for at least some of the kids she would have been the Cool Aunt. :)

And now you know we spent quite a lot of time on Heinrich becoming Fritz, so there was no way I wasn't going to notice that and remark on it :D

Yep, exactly. As soon as I saw that, I knew you were going to pick up on it too, after all that time betaing/co-authoring.

Mildred said yes, but otoh she wouldn't mind reading stories where he does, and/or the time wars between Fritz and Heinrich.

Time wars between Fritz and Heinrich...???? !!!! this is a thing I can have? YES PLEASE where do I sign up????

Lol, your reaction is much closer to my reaction than the sedate summary by Selena. My actual reaction:

Selena: also, one does not want Frederick the Great to find out about time travel.

Me: The part of me that has rational political beliefs: No, of course not!

The part of me that is fannish: OMG YES WE DO WE EXTREMELY DO BRING ME MY POPCORN WOULD READ ABOUT THIS ALL DAY LONG GIMME!!! :D :D :D

Would also read the time wars between Heinrich and Fritz!

And yes, Fritz+MT time wars too! Would read!

although I am going to bet my hat (except that I had to eat it when it turned out mildred was the author of Corporate AU)

ROTFL!

Well, you may keep your replacement hat, because my reaction to *this* one was:

ONE of these two options you are allowed to gift me. :P

I have a *lot* of questions and thoughts and feelings and opinions about this, predictably, but having made my opinions on the first two options clear, and having announced my partial salon hiatus, I'm afraid I'm going to go read Horowski instead. Curse my sleep woes!

ask for Fredersdorf to be transfered to Potsdam if he can engineer that without making Dad suspicious

Fredersdorf is tall, problem solved. :P

re: Fredersdorf, zomg, you're right. Incidentally, I only have one more episode to go on a six part 1980s GDR miniseries which in its last two episodes actually features Fritz and Fredersdorf, and was shot on location so I'll try to do screencaps of them in Sanssouci. But! The actor playing Fredersdorf is smaller than the actor who plays Fritz, and that's just wrong! (Otoh, the dogs are actual Italian greyhounds the right size, not fearsome beasts of another race.)

In case anyone missed it,

sub_divided was my assigned author, matched on my Cryptonomicon request, found that I was part of this amaaazing Frederick the Great experience, then decided to pick up a new fandom instead of writing for my Cryptonomicon request, and wrote us a space AU!

Welcome to our small but active fandom,

sub_divided! Uh, there's a fandom + DW primer here, which I should probably move somewhere else, but for now, that'll do.

selenak and

cahn, I have to share this delightful quote by

sub_divided about our Rheinsberg community:

In the end I went with this one because I thought the amount of research you guys were doing in reinsburg was just so cool and impressive, like a friend joked "imagine being an academic studying this time period and finding this community, I would retire immediately" lololol.

<333

The idea for the community may have been mine, but most of the content is

selenak's, and it was

cahn who prompted the discussion by asking if we wanted to move to a community, so...alchemy as always!

Speaking of Rheinsberg, Selena, I noticed that your Fahlenkamp Fredersdorf findings aren't copied over there yet. (Discovered that while researching Carel.) Are you planning on it, or would you like me to?

I was so happily curious and intrigued when a story showed up at Madness which clearly didn't hail from any of the three of us! Welcome indeed,

sub_divided!

re: Fahlenkamp, I'll do it, not least since I need to collect the comments discussing my checking on Fahlenkamp's disgrace claim as well as the straight write-up, etc.

It was actually in Main, which is even more impressive! It was my assignment (albeit posted after the deadline).

Unless

sub_divided negotiated something with the mods, I'm guessing the reason I didn't go to pinch hits was that I already had a lovely time-travel gift. <3

Madness had one story each from the three of us regulars.

Hi

sub_divided! Welcome! :D We were so intrigued by that Space AU and who had written it :DD

Edited 2021-01-02 18:54 (UTC)

I could not resist using that title, since, as Mildred noted in her comment, that song really works for Sophie/Catherine as well as Fritz. (And since there's more than enough tv and movie footage of Catherine the Great, someone really ought to do a vid.)

Nabielka and I were matched on three characters - Catherine, Fritz and MT - and when I read her letter, I was relieved that she was okay with only using two of them given that her main wish was for the (First) Polish Partition to be a theme and the difficulty of all of them being in different countries. This alas meant no MT, because the time I really wanted to focus on was Heinrich's visit and the build up to the Polish Partition, so MT was the one of the three who would not be used. Fritz only gets two "on page" scenes but as he's very much in Catherine's and Heinrich's thoughts all the time, I thought he still qualifies as an important character.

Now, in order for the story to convey the complexity of the relationship, I knew flashbacks had to be a thing - show over tell, because I wanted readers to get invested into the childhood friendship and hope they can maintain it despite being in current day also professional cutthroats, err, power players who have to be aware the other party has their own agenda. Also, the flashbacks could show how much Catherine did and didn't change from Sophie to Catherine, and by remaining in her pov, I hopefully added a bit of mystery for newbies as to what Heinrich was up to - i.e. getting to wonder along with Catherine and Fritz.

Nabielka had asked for Poniatowski to be included, if possible, and I was happy to do that, not just because of the obvious relevance the Catherine/Poniatowski backstory has if you write about the Polish Partition but because it (hopefully) makes what Catherine and Heinrich come to plan/do more personal. The fate of millions, as the saying goes, is a statistic, alas. Destroying your ex lover's life and world - not motivated by personal malice towards him at all - is a tragedy. It also works as a counterpoint for Catherine's relationship with Heinrich and for his decision not to stay in Russia at the end, and her realisation about why this is ultimately a good thing. As Poniatowski really was the only person who got to call Catherine "Sophie" in her Russian life, it also very workeable for her emotional development in past and present throughout.

Incidentally, in terms of research, in addition to their respective memoirs, I had read some books about the first Polish Partition, some Catherine biographies, and the Poniatowski biography "The Last King of Poland". Which was very useful when it came to inner Polish matters, but I raised an eyebrow or both when it came to the wholesale buying into, say, Poniatowski's admiring image of Charles Hanbury Williams (you would not think this was the same envoy who managed to piss off Fritz and MT, the sole ambassador to achieve this feat, in his respective postings), and I found Horowski’s take (in Das Europa der Könige) rendition of how what Hanbury-Williams thought was his crowning achievement - the 1755 treaty between England and Russia - turned into a complete fuck-up because of the 1756 treaty between England and Prussia. (Hence Elisaveta, who hadn't ratified the earlier treaty yet, telling the Brits in 1756 sarcastically she would absolutely hold to that treaty and help them in the event of Hannover getting attacked by Prussia, sure thing!) Not to mention that The Last King of Poland has Fritz as the Evil Mastermind who planned the Polish Partition from the get go, in detail. Heinrich who? (He gets two mentions in the entire biography, once as an alternate candidate for the Polish crown - in one sentence that says Fritz didn't go for it and doesn't mention he explicitly forbade any mention of this to Heinrich - and then again by saying Fritz sent him to Catherine as part of the Evil Masterplan.) But, like I said: when it came to inner Polish matters, and of course Poniatowski himself who was after all the subject of the biography, it certainly delivered.

Since I was trying to keep the ensemble limited in order not to make things too confusing, I had to decide who in addition should show up. Kaphengst got mentioned in dialogue mostly to make it clear that Heinrich really had no romantic interest in Catherine, but there was no reason to give him an actual scene, and so there isn't one. By contrast, Grigory Orlov got to show up in person because he really was still an important factor during Heinrich's first trip to Russia (if about to be deposed), to demonstrate how Catherine handled her lovers at this point, and for exposition reasons. Otoh Potemkin, who was already around and about to become Catherine's No.1, didn't make the cut because that would have been too distracting from the main story.

Lastly: I was going back and thro about the matter with Sophie's uncle. But it happened, according to her memoirs he (the uncle) was jealous of Heinrich, it gave me a good opportunity to show the youthful bffs in action and it conveyed some of Sophie's emotional background long before coming to Russia, so I couldn't do without it.

Edited 2021-01-02 19:56 (UTC)

I love this insight into your writing process! I would write more if I were not trying to limit my salon interactions, but know that I felt these were all excellent decisions that worked.

Fritz only gets two "on page" scenes but as he's very much in Catherine's and Heinrich's thoughts all the time, I thought he still qualifies as an important character.

I was rather impressed by how present he was in the fic even though he didn't get so many on page scenes!

Destroying your ex lover's life and world - not motivated by personal malice towards him at all - is a tragedy. It also works as a counterpoint for Catherine's relationship with Heinrich and for his decision not to stay in Russia at the end, and her realisation about why this is ultimately a good thing.

Yessss I really thought this worked very well.

So one question I had after reading the fic: what historically is known about why Catherine decided to promote Poniatowski to King of Poland? In the fic the reason given is personal, but I assume that's the personal tip of an iceberg of political machinations that of course you weren't going to show in an "only" 10k fic :)

I'm glad you put Orlov in! I know that he showed up in a couple of Lehndorff entries (because I was browsing through your writeups earlier :) ) All this fic is filling in gaps in my knowledge :D (But maybe Potemkin for another time! :D )

So one question I had after reading the fic: what historically is known about why Catherine decided to promote Poniatowski to King of Poland? In the fic the reason given is personal, but I assume that's the personal tip of an iceberg of political machinations that of course you weren't going to show in an "only" 10k fic :)

In addition to the reasons given in the fic (he's from one of the leading Polish aristocratic families BUT he won't have foreign backup (other than hers) to fall back on, you have to consider that the last two Kings of Poland were Saxon Prince Electors who did their best to make the job inheritable (though they failed; Brühl had to spend a lot of money to get August III. elected as King of Poland after August II.'s death). (After August III. died, his son did make an attempt to be a candidate but knew it would probably fail because Saxony had been bled dry, literally, through the 7 Years War which was over only for a year. Poland governed by foreign Kings was the norm rather than the exception - the other Stanislas, Stanislav Lescynski, who ruled in between August(us) the Strong's two terms and was Louis XV's father-in-law, was such an exception, being an actual Pole, but even he was reliant on French backup (and when that wasn't delivered had to high tail it ouf of Poland, with Katte's Dad as his first host in exile at Königsberg; Lescynski eventually ended up getting FS's dukedom of Lorraine and playing host to Émilie, Voltaire and Saint-Lambert). And Poland was, in theory, a large and potentially rich country. On Russia's doorstep. Having it controlled by essentially another foreign power (no matter which one) is not in Russia's interest. Poniatowski, otoh, is someone whom Catherine knows to be strongly attached to her, who is smart in book and conversation ways but not a natural power grabber on his own account, and while his belonging to one of the biggest Polish families means he's just about acceptable as a candidate of royalty he was the youngest son who was never meant to rule, just to make himself useful as a diplomat, which means he didn't grow up considering himself entitled to greatness. He'll know he owes it all to her. Conclusion: from her pov, he's a good candidate.

...except for the part where all the other Polish aristocratic families now hate his guts in jealous indignation and where he actually takes that coronation oath seriously and tries his best for Poland. Which is not the best for Russia.

This is awesome, thank you! <3

...except for the part where all the other Polish aristocratic families now hate his guts in jealous indignation and where he actually takes that coronation oath seriously and tries his best for Poland. Which is not the best for Russia.

:( Poor Poniatowski.

This was not just an but the most famous, most expensive GDR tv production, and somehow I didn't watch it until this last week. The title is somewhat misleading, since it's All Saxony, (Nearly) All The Time, and Prussia only has two cameos (in episode 2) in the first four episodes, not becoming equally important in terms of location and character until the last two episodes (which are set early in the Seven Years War). The miniseries is loosely based on a a series of novels by a nineteenth century Polish author collectively referred as "the Saxon series". If he already took liberties with history, the show then added some. Something else to keep in mind: it was created in the 1980s. The first few decades, East Germany found dealing with its Hohenzollern past a bit tricky. On the one hand, imperial feudalism and militarism = BAD, obviously. On the other hand, by the 1980s, they GDR was in dire need of money, tourists were an income, and national pride was a thing again. And given the content of this miniseries, I also suspect someone in the production team said: "You know how they're all glued to the tv screen in the west, watching these decadent American shows where people have sex and scheme all the time? We can do that, too, with more nudity than the Yanks and way better fashion, and still justify it as national heritage!"

Keep this in mind as I give you the summary of the six episodes:

Episode 1: Countess Cosel (Part I):

August(us) the Strong: the series starts in the late 1690s when I'm crowned as King of Poland for the first time, but I get played by Dietrich Körner throughout, and he looks like he's somewhere in his late 50s or early 60s. I just abandoned the proud Protestant Saxon heritage of House Wettin in order to get my hands on Poland, since they accept only Catholic sovereigns. By this, you can see I have large scale ambitions. I also really like to party!

Charles of Sweden: I'm the wannabe Alexander of the Baroque, just on the throne and determined to invade and make war! Saxony is just a piece of cake for me. Watch me kick Russian ass next once I'm done here!

Swedes: rape and pillage, which is shown in a few discreet shots, also plunder a castle without raping, which is good for:

Anna Constantia von Hoym: I'm the leading lady of the first two parts, and I will not forget this, Swedish bastards.

Flemming: I'm August's scheming advisor and most important minister, and I have to tell him that our army just isn't up to battlling Charles. We have to sue for peace as long as we still have Saxony and give up on Poland for now.

August: This is humiliating, but fine, I'll do it. But I'll be back!

August: *parties in Dresden to cheer himself up, dares everyone to describe their fave mistresses*

Treasury Chancellor Hoym: I don't have one, because my wife is the most beautiful woman of the country. Way more beautiful than your current maitresse en titre. She's the most beautiful woman of the world!

selenak: You clearly haven't read Livy. Also, didn't Anna meet August when the Hoym town residence burned and she organized the fire fighting? Wasn't that dramatic enough for you, Polish novelist and German scriptwriters?

August: She's invited to my next ball.

Olav von Rosen: I'm an OC who is in all the episodes. Currently I am a young man bravely escorting Anna from the recently plundered castle to Dresden despite some more marauding Swedes with evil intentions. Charles still uses us as his backyard, you know.

Anna (to Hoym): I can't believe you. Where do you think this is going?

Hoym: Look, he's my boss.

August: You're hot. I'm still King.

Anna: Prince Elector right now, and also, if you want to play Henry VIII, I'm playing Anne Boleyn. I have no intention of becoming your next mistress. If you like it, put a ring on it.

Flemming: What's that? You're jut supposed to be the next piece of fluff! Your majesty, no way!

August: Relax, I have it all under control. Look, Anna, I'm already married, and so are you. And since I'm now Catholic, divorce is just not on.

Anna: But you want me all for yourself, don't you?

August: I really really do.

Anna: I'll divorce Hoym if you give me a marriage promise in writing in which you swear that you'll marry me if you ever become a widower.

Flemming: Don't do it!

August: I never wanted a woman more. Here's your marriage pledge in writing, Anna. Only the best for you! Once you're divorced, you need a new title. How about Countess Cosel?

Anna: Thank you. Since you are now my fiancee and basically my husband, I take a wifely interest in the government of this country. Starting with the fact we're still sort of occupied by the goddam Swedes.

August: Not forever, I promises. Did I mention I have long term plans? Poland back, of course, but more than that. The current Emperor has no sons, see.

Anna: But he has a brother who'll succeed him.

August: The brother doesn't have any sons yet, either. I love gambling, and I'm banking on the fact the Habsburs will die out. My oldest kid is going to marry the current Emperor's daughter, older cousin to not yet born MT. You see where this is going, Darling?

Anna: I love a man with a plan. So, about those Swedes....

Charles: I'm off to another round with Peter the not yet Great, but I want to do some sightseeing first and visit Dresden incognito.

Anna: August, Charles is in Dresden incognito. We could totally capture him and end your humiliation.

August: This would go against the royal bro code. Sorry, no can do.

Anna: Rosen, organize the capture of Charles anyway behind August's back, it's for his own good.

Flemming: Aha, the slut is making a mistake! Your Majesty, guess what I just found out?

August: Meets up with Charles as per the royal bro code.

Rosesn: Can't capture Charles if my King is also around, sorry.

Charles: So, August, before I leave, I keep hearing about how strong you are, want to demonstrate?

August: *bends a bar of iron around Charles in the form of a horse's shoe, then throws it away, in a none too subtle demonstration of how he could have captured Charles if not for the royal bro code*

Charles: First time I am impressed by you. So long! Off to earn more glory against Peter.

Anna (to August): I don't believe you. We could have...argh! What kind of a King are you?

August: Since you insulted my manliness, I'm off to Malapart, the most famous pre-Fritz battle of the century, where I'll meet young FW, Grumbkow and Seckendorff off screen and have a lot of sex with other women!

Peter the about to become Great: *wins against Charles*

Charles: *retreats in depression and infamy, will not get old*

Flemming: At last, things are looking better. Now we can get Poland back, and I can surely get rid of Cosel. He's having lots of sex with other women already, time to get him an alternate mistress.

Anna: I'll leave it at one jealous scene and then reconsider since I actually missed you, offering you a compromise: other one night stands, fine, but I'm your true Queen.

August: Of course you are.

A few more happy years during which Anna is the uncrowned Queen and produces some children: *ensue*

Flemming: Grrr. Argh. But now that Lescynski guy has finally left. Poland beckons, your majesty!

Anna: Farewell, dearest. I have a bad feeling about this....

Episode 2: Countess Cosel (Part II):

August: Hi, Polish ladies. Missed me?

Flemming: At last, I've found one who captures his attention for longer than a night. Also, I'm censoring the Royal Mail so he doesn't get any of Cosel's love letters, only the ones where she's irritated by his not replying and sharp tongued!

August: You're hot.

Rival: I want to be a mistress, not a one night stand.

August: ...okay. Anna maybe could do with some competition.

Flemming: *fakes a murder attempt on the new mistress, makes it look like Anna ordered it*

Rival: I'm not going back with you to Saxony if I have to fear for my life. Banish that evil woman!

August: Um. Well. Flemming, send someone to tell Anna tactfully she should leave Dresden and go to Pillnitz for a while. After some time, when tempers have cooled down...

Flemming: *sends messenger who tells Anna that she's banished to Pillnitz, but has to leave her children behind*

Anna: No way! Rosen, let's try to meet August on the road.

Flemming: Your majesty, Countess Cosel has disobeyed a direct order.

August: Make her go to Pillnitz, I don't care how!

Anna: *is escorted forcibly to Pillnitz*

Rosen: Countess, sorry, but I think Flemming knows if you ever manage to see the King, he's screwed. He'll kill you. We should escape. I'll organize it.

Anna: Thanks, loyal knight.

Escape: *happens, but with interruptions; Anna and the kids are already on the escape boat when she sees there are fireworks in Dresden (literal ones) and decides she needs to try one last time*

August: *sees Anna wearing a masque, approaches her* You're hot. How come I haven't seen you before?

Anna: Because you're a complete cad, you bastard. I've had it now with you. Bye!

Escape: *continues, now with added obstacle of furious August sending soldiers after them, but loyal Rosen manages to smuggle them out of Dresden anyway*

Anna, Rosen and the kids: *arrive in Berlin*

Flemming: Your Majesty, we have a problem. Your youngest kid by Cosel is a boy. You're a widower now. As long as she has that marriage promise in writing, she could make a case that she is in fact your wife, and thus he another legitimate son. Your oldest son will never become King of Poland, let along Emperor, if that question mark hangs over him. Do it for the Imperial future, your majesty! We need to get that marriage pledge, and the Countess Cosel to go with it. It's way too dangerous to let her hang out in neighbouring Prussia.

August: ....I see your point and am tearing out the last of my love of my heart. We need to get FW to return Anna to us. How? Let's call my secretary.

Young Page Brühl: I am now entering the narrative played as a late teen by future director Leander Hausmann. The actor who'll play me from the next episode onwards is Leander's dad.

Young Brühl: August's secretary, have some more wine, it's not like the King is going to need you in the next five minutes.

Secretary: *passes out drunk*

Brühl: Sorry, your majesty, your secretary is passed out, but maybe I can help?

August: Not unless you can write a letter making FW return Anna to me.

Brühl: Not a problem. *writes* Dear FW, if you send my ex back I'm returning some tell deserters to you. Love, August. P.S. Also you don't want people to think your're harboring sluts in Berlin, do you?

August and Flemming: *are impressed*

August: That's one promising young man.

FW: Tall deserters, you say? *heart eyes* Arrest the slut and deliver her to August!

Anna: *arrives in Stolpen as a prisoner*

Soldier in the Stolpen garnison: *falls in love with Anna*

Rosen: This has potential. Don't give up, Countess!

Anna: I never do.

Flemming: *gets his hands on the marriage pledge by blackmailing the Jewish banker Rosen has left it withÜ

FW: *has his second scene of the episode, at an event which is a mix of his and Fritz' trip to Dresden and the Zeithain camp*

Orzelska (silent role): *dances suggestively like Salome*

selenak: Why is she blonde? All the Orzelska's I've seen so far were brunettes.

Fritz (played by very much not a teenager actor): *looks*

Fritz: Leutnant Keith, we must escape!

Leutnant Keith: I am apparently a mix of Keith the page, Peter Keith and Katte, and say this escape thing might be difficult:

Fritz: Gonna do it, though.

FW: *Catches him, drags him in front of everyone and abuses him*

Flemming (to August): Okay, the Prussian King has calmed down now and is ready to leave. But I have a bad feeling that the kid is never going to get over the fact this happened in front of lots of Saxons.

*exit Prussians from the tale for the next few episodes*

Anna: *changes clothes with the young soldier in love with her, escapes the castle, is met by loyal Rosen outside*

Young Soldier: *leaves the castle because can't bear to be without Anna, which naturally alerts the guards to the fact they just saw him leave the castle TWICE*

Anna: *after some action scene horseriding, is recaptured*

Anna: This is just not the episode for succeful escapes.

*Some time later*

August: I want to try out those new canons FW sold me. The Stolpen area has some tough rocks to shoot at.

Anna: He's totally using that as an excuse to visit me, I just know it.

August: shoots at rocks, leaves without visiting.

Anna:... I guess that's it for me. You shall not see me on screen again, audience, though I live for many decades more.

I mean... if you wanted to make a sexy soap opera, you could definitely do worse than August the Strong. A lot worse :P

(uh, real life meeting of Anna and August seems much cooler than what they actually went with??)

lol to the royal bro code! (I guess the royal bro code, as we'll see, is less funny to the women)

August: *sees Anna wearing a masque, approaches her* You're hot. How come I haven't seen you before?

OH AUGUST NO

FW: Tall deserters, you say? *heart eyes*

OMG FW, everyone knows about you

Leutnant Keith: I am apparently a mix of Keith the page, Peter Keith and Katte, and say this escape thing might be difficult:

what. Well, okay?

if you wanted to make a sexy soap opera, you could definitely do worse than August the Strong

Very true. Mind you, because of its reputation as the big GDR prestige tv effort, I was expecting v.v. serious tv, not trashy fun, but I'm all for it! I'm also getting a kick out of imagining the scriptwriters embracing all the trashiness in a way they never could have if they'd been given a contemporary subject. Although even within that parameter, some of the scriptwriting choices are weird, such as:

uh, real life meeting of Anna and August seems much cooler than what they actually went with??

Indeed. Not only was the rl first meeting cooler but intensely visual and thus ideal for tv, one should think. Unless they had already blown all the budget (the Countess Cosel story was filmed last, wiki says, though it takes place first) and couldn't afford faking a 18th century palace burning. Then again, wiki also says the beauty competition thing hails straight from the novel and has no basis in history, so I guess you can blame the 19th century novelist.

FW: only has two scenes in this entire series, yes manages to be instantly recognizable and ic in both. :) And yeah, I totally buy that even ambitious pages in Saxony and Poland would have had his number at this point.

"Leutnant Keith" being two boyfriends and a page in one person: I guess given the focus of this show on Saxons and Prussians really becoming relevant only in the last two eps, it's understandable, but it still feels weird if you know anything about history.

Episode 3: Brühl (Part I)

Brühl (now played by a man in his 40s): The last episode ended in 1730, and now it's 1733, since August has just died in Warsaw. I still look 24 years older. Just go with it. I am the J.R. Ewing of the Rokoko age, your main character for the next two eps, and now I have to bring the news of August's demise to his son, future August III., who is in Dresden.

Sukowski: I started out as a page as well but am future August III.'s bff. Clearly, that means I get to rule once my bud is King, because he likes me best. I have nothing to fear from Brühl, who can do the financial stuff. I'm a military man! Hey Brühl! Back from Warsaw?

Brühl: Sadly, our glorious King has died.

Sukowski: OMG we have to tell my buddy!

Brühl: Clearly he shouldn't get such sad news without emotional support. How about getting his wife and his confessor so they can break it to him gently? Also, I must get out of these travel cloths and wear something appropriate for such news, see you later with the other two.

Sukowski: That's actually a good idea. Okay, see ya!

Brühl: *gets a page* Tell young(er) August you've seen me, but not that I sent you.

Brühl: *is summoned by August the soon III while Sukowski is still busy tracking down the wife and the confessor*

Brühl: *tells August the soon III. the news, is there for him*

Wife, Confessor, Sukowski: Arrive too late.

Sukowski, when the other two take over: But I thought we were to tell him together?

Brühl: Sorry, I was summoned, I didn't even have time to change. But I swear I have no ambitions. You are the only one for PM, clearly!

August the soon III: So you're going to be my PM, Suko, but you, Brühl, you're going to be my second most important minister.

Brühl: If I must.

Brühl: *has sex with the Countess Moscynska, daughter of August the Strong and Anna Countess Cosel*

Brühl: *during sex*: Your father was the coolest, I am actually sorry that he's dead, and I'm so into you not just because you're hot but because you're his daughter and that of the one and only Cosel*

Brühl: *after sex*: So did I mention that your Dad is who I want to be?

Moscynska: You're lucky we're into kink in this family. Well, you can't be him, but you could totally be the power behind the throne.

Brüh: That'll do.

Watzdorf: I'm an idealistic enlightened thinker, writing pamphlets against the corruption at court, especially as practised by the two ex pages Sukowski and Brühl.

(

selenak: *googling him later: You're nothing of the sort and already have several rape suits following you at this point.)

Franziska: I'm a young naive, totally in love with you.

Tweedledum and Tweedledee: We're two civil servants, one of us going to become Sukowski's minion, one Brühl's. We sort of deliver the economic commentary on events from now on.

Maria Josepha: I'm August the now III's wife, Mt's cousin and thus a proud Habsburg and very Catholic.

Guarini: I'm the confessor from earlier, and the evil priest of the remaining episodes. I scheme.

Sukowski: So, I have plans for Saxony. The Austrians are really going downhill in this decades. Isn't Silesia a nice province next door? We should totally invade it!

Maria Josepha: What?

Guarini: And that's why we should back the other one.

Maria Josepha: But is that Brühl more reliable? Isn't he a Protestant?

Guarini: We should marry him to a Catholic lady. Doesn't your Bohemian lady-in-waiting here have a daughter named Franziska?

Franziska: But I love Watzdorf! Brühl, I know you're into Mosczynska, can't you let me be with my true love?

Brühl: Not if I want to continue my career, darling. Not giving up Moscynska, though. I'm afraid our engagement is on.

selenak: Hang on... Franziska? Your future wife is called Marianne! Also she did not have a thing with Watzdorf. *googles* Maria Anna Franziska, okay, fair enough though her biography says she used "Marianne".

Watzdorf: *is busy writing more pamphlets against Sukowski and Brühl*

Sukowski: I'm punishing the printer.

Brühl: Pff. I'm buying the printer and bribing him by making him the official court printer. What's that you say, minion, my fiancee and Watzdorf? Well well well. Do tell Sukowski's minion in strict confidence Watzdorf is about to launch an exposé on Sukowski's Silesia plans!

Sukowski: *arrests Watzdorf, puts him into Königstein*

Franziska: Fine, I'll marry you, if you promise to help me to set my beloved free and avenge myself on that bastard Sukowski.

Brühl: Naturally.

Episode 4: Brühl (II):

Sukowski: So, about Silesia. I think that's absolutely brilliant plan of mine, and history will prove me right, you'll see.

Brühl: Maybe we should try to get it politically instead? Seeing as our army isn't anywhere near as large as the Austrian one?

Sukowski: You're not a military man, Brühl, you don't understand. Here are my secret plans to explain it, though, while I'm off to fight for the Habsburg Emperor against the Turks. We're still subjects to the Emperor, after all, so I can't deny the request.

Brühl: *makes copy of the secret plans, and gives them to the Austrian envoy*

Vienna: WTF?

Maria Josepha, Guarini, Brühl, all in their respective ways to August III: Sukowski got you in a hell of a lot of trouble with the Emperor with these Silesia plans. He needs to go.

August III: I'm just into art and building palaces, can't we all be nice together?

Everyone else: No!

Meanwhile, on the front:

Sukowski: Hello there. You seem a trustworthy veteran. Let's be friends.

Rosen: By all means. You should be careful.

Sukowski: Eh, the King loves me. I'll always stay on top!

Rosen: I've heard that before. Countess Cosel is still at Stolpen.

Sukowski: I'll make August release her when I get back, he's completely unlike his Dad.

Sukowski: *gets a letter that he's dismissed as PM*

Sukowski: WTF? *rides home, manages to see August III despite Brühl's precautions*

August III: I just want peace and love, can't it stay as it was?

Everyone else: NO.

Franziska: So, husband, if I seduce August III who unlike his father has been a loyal husband so far and make him banish Sukowski, will you then see to it that my beloved Watzdorf is released from Königstein?

Brühl: Naturally.

Brühl: *tells minion that he wants Watzdorf to be freed, but phrases it in a way that makes it very clear what really should happen*

Minion: *tells sub minion to do go to Königstein*

Subminion: I don't think this will end well for me, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

Other civil servant minion: Sukowski, the only thing that can save you now is if we get the dirt on Brühl. Maybe that Watzdorf who used to write the pamphlets knows me? I'm off to Königstein to find out.

Watzdorf: *is thrown of the walls of Königstein as a free dead body*

Brühl: Sukowski did that.

Franziska: I'm not THAT naive. Also I'm going to have sex with every handsome young guy who comes my way from this point onwards in revenge on you, but not with you, you bastard.

(

selenak: I suppose the ten children you two had together don't exist in this miniseries. Also you two wrote love letters to each other twenty years post marriage, but okay, based on a 19th century novel written at point when official history was completely anti Brühl.)

Brühl: That's okay, dearest, Moscynska and I are still an item, anyway.

August III: Brühl, you're now my only minister and bff and everything.

Brühl: Yay!

Episode 5: From the time of the 7 Years War (I):

Brühl: So, I've been thinking. Silesia got unfortunately nabbed by Fritz of Prussia, but Saxony can still end up as a superpower by diplomacy, since he's been pissing off everyone else in the last decade. I' have this brilliant plan of creating an alliance between France and Austria, with Russia and Sweden joining in. And Saxony right in the middle.

Moscynska: Wow. How come you're letting this Kaunitz guy all the credit?

Brühl: I'm modest like that.

*change of location to.... Sanssouci*

Fritz (now played by an actor who got famous for this part, Arno Wyzniewski): Fredersdorf (first word of dialogue he has), let's talk exposition and establish that I'm the toughest, meanest, magnificent bastard of the era. Brühl is officially outclassed.

Fredersdorf (played by actor somewhat smaller than Wyzniweski, Joachim Tomaschewsky): No question about it, but since I'm not just your treasurer but also your spy master, I'd still like to know what he's up to.

Italian greyhounds: *are always around Fritz; this is a plot point*

Max de Simoni: I'm one of the two new OCs, a handsome young Swiss adventurer who wants to serve Fritz.

Fredersdorf: You can do that in Dresden as our spy. Countess Brühl is still into young guys lilke you. Seduce her and find out what Brühl is up to.

Simoni: You want me to have sex for Prussia?

Fredersdorf: Absolutely.

Simoni: I never thought serving the Hohenzollern could be such fun.

Simoni: *has sex with Franziska who gets him a job as one of Brühl's undersecretaries*

Pepita von Nostiz: I'm the new naive, in love with a Prussian soldier, who leaves his regiment for a night of love with me. Dresden is just three hours away on horseback, after all.

Prussian soldier: *gets shouted at by his superior officer, draws his sword, realises that he's done, is arrested*

Fritz: Anyone who draws on his superior officer needs to get executed for the sake of discipline in my army.

Fredersdorf: ...But he's a promising young guy otherwise, so maybe some mercy?

Fritz: No. Discipline! Also I don't like deserters.

Pepita: I hate the King of Prussia and swear revenge forever and ever.

Xaver Maslowski: I'm the other new OC, in love with Pepita, tormented by the fact Simoni, who, lilke me, is an undersecretary at Brühl's, flirts with her as well and no one can resist him.

Simoni: *actually gets his hands on the secret documents proving the alliance against Prussia* RED ALERT RED ALERT.

Fritz: ....okay, I'll admit to being just a bit surprised. Clearly, action is called for. Fredersdorf, time to invade again, I've been getting rusty! We're off to Saxony.

Minion: Um. The Prussian army is currently invading our country.

Brühl: Your majesty, while that is a admittedly a bit worrying, it's only a temporary set back. No way Fritz can win against the armies of our allies.

Allies: armies we're going to send next year.

Saxon commander: No way our army can hold off the Prussians until then.

Brühl: ... I think you and I should retreat to Königstein, your majesty.

Episode 6: From the time of the 7 Years War (II):

Fritz: *still in Sanssouci* Fredersdorf, I still need intel on Brühl. Even from Königstein.

Fredersdorf: Will see to it, but why are we still in Sanssouci when it's now autumn of 1756 and we've taken most of Saxony except Pirna and Königstein?

Fritz: Because the producers got permission to film here, and by God, they're going to film here. So every time I'm not explicitly in a battle, I hop back to Sanssouci. It's just a few hours!

Pepita, Maria Josepha, Franziska and Guarini: *conspire in the Dresden palace where the Queen still lives, even under Prussian occupation*

Pepita: I had this brilliant idea of how we can save Saxony from Fritz. We kidnap him, then use him as leverage.

Maria Josepha: Sounds like a plan to me. Countess Brühl, write to your husband to tell him that.

Franziska: Will do, and Pepita, send me your hot Swiss admirer whom I'm still banging as well, we'll use him as a courier.

Simoni: rides to Sanssouci (seriously, the number of times they find an excuse to show that palace is amazing), reports to Fritz about a secret plan, but doesn't actually now WHICH scheme because Franziska hasn't told him what's in the letter and the letter was written in chiffre*

Fritz: You seem competent, and I like your looks. Are you by any chance musical?

Simoni: I play the cembalo.

Fritz and Simoni: *play a flute/cembalo duet*

Simoni: shows up in Königstein

Brühl in Königstein: *is slowly getting stir crazy and suspects a mole, but suspects poor innocent Waslawski, not Simoni, who is just that irresistible to everyone

Guarini in Dresden: As an evil priest, I'm not putting my trust into this kidnapping scheme. We need a fallback scheme. Here's a potion in a black bottle. To be used if the kidnapping doesn't work out. Got that, Glasow?

Glasow: *is a middle aged overweight man* And I get absolution?

Guarini: That's what evil priests spreading the opiate of the masses are for.

Maslawski (not knowing any of this): Pepita, to prove my love for you, I'll be the one to kidnap Fritz, personally.

Maslawski: *spies on Fritz to get a sense of his schedule, thus seeing Simoni depart from the Prussians*

Maslawski: tells this to Pepita

Simoni: *back in Dresden to figure out what the secret plan is*

Simoni: Hi, Franziska. Let's have sex, I've missed you.

Franziska. So I hear you've been hanging out with the Prussians? That's what little Pepita claims anyway.

Simoni: Slander! Okay...I sort of spent some time in Berlin, but I'm Swiss, you know, which means neutral, and can I help it Fritz wanted to play a duet with me?

Franziska: I empathize. You've got a hot bod, you're smart, and they say he doesn't like women.

Simoni: Countess! *wink, nudge* You're the hottest, though.

selenak: Wow. This is the first time this miniseries seem to as much as hint at the existence of non-straight orientation in anyone.

Pepita's grandmother: *Is a Fritz fan, has heard Pepita's plotting and sends an anonymous (as not to incriminate her granddaughter) warning letter to Fritz that he's about to be kidnapped*

Fritz: *dictates instructions - in Sanssouci - that if he's shot, the invasion should proceed anyway, and if he's kidnapped, any instructions from him thereafter are to be ignored, then heads off to Bohemia, because*

Austrians: have managed to get an army together to fight Fritz at Lobowitz

Fritz: *wins*

Brühl and August: That's it, alas. We're off to Warsaw.

Glasow: *puts Guarini's poison in Fritz' chocolate cup* (at Sanssouci, Fritz came back immediately after the battle)

Fritz: *sits reading with an Italian greyhound in his lap, tells Glasow to put the chololate next to him*

Glasow: *does so, leaves*

Fritz: *smiles lovingly at dog, lets it drink the chocolate*

Italian Greyhound not named out loud*: *dies*

Fritz: REVENGE!

Glasow: *is tortured, incriminates all the conspirators, not just Guarini, including Simoni (because he's seen him with Franziska a lot)

Fritz: Simoni what? Okay, he is to be hanged, just like Glasow.

Glasow: *is hanged*

selenak: But he wasn't executed! ... Never mind.

Prussian soldiers: Search chez Franziska Brühl for Simoni (and telling her she'd to leave for Warsaw to join her husband and the King there)

Simoni: *escapes through secret door*

Simoni: *is shot when trying to make a run for it anyway, dies*

Pepita: Maslawski, now I can tell you I love only you.

Maslawski: Ditto.

Epilogue scenes in quick montage: *Fritz wins at Prague, loses at Kolin, but doesn't have a melt down because he's too manly and tough for that but says he'll win again in the next one, wins Roßbach and Leuthen after dramatic speech, cut to end of 7 Year War which the narrator tells was was a few years later*

Narrator: 1763 was also the year August III. died. And Brühl. But we're still living in the echoes of Saxony's splendour and Prussia's glory.

Am exercising significant amounts of willpower to adhere to my salon hiatus resolutions, but am here to let you know I read this gleefully and have bookmarked it for future replies.

Moscynska: You're lucky we're into kink in this family.

HAHAHAHAHA

([personal profile] selenak: *googling him later: You're nothing of the sort and already have several rape suits following you at this point.)

Wow. Okay, writers of this thing...

Sukowski: So, I have plans for Saxony. The Austrians are really going downhill in this decades. Isn't Silesia a nice province next door? We should totally invade it!

Maria Josepha: What?

Me: What? Poland?

August III: I'm just into art and building palaces, can't we all be nice together?

Everyone else: No!

LOL. The 18th century, right there. (...actually, I guess, all of politics. But never mind that.)

August III: I just want peace and love, can't it stay as it was?

Everyone else: NO.

HAHAHAHA I FEEL YOU AUGUST III

Brühl: *tells minion that he wants Watzdorf to be freed, but phrases it in a way that makes it very clear what really should happen*

lol I feel like I saw this plot point in Tosca (yeah, I know, not original to that either, but just, lol)

Fredersdorf (played by actor somewhat smaller than Wyzniweski, Joachim Tomaschewsky):

...this would seriously distract me, sort of like when I watched Hamilton and the guy playing Hamilton was taller than anyone else in the cast, like, apparently it is totally OK with me that they're all POCs but the height thing is so weird??

Fredersdorf, time to invade again, I've been getting rusty!

HAHA this is great! Obviously exactly how it happened

Fritz: Because the producers got permission to film here, and by God, they're going to film here. So every time I'm not explicitly in a battle, I hop back to Sanssouci. It's just a few hours!

AHAHAHA okay I laughed really hard at this

Fritz and Simoni: *play a flute/cembalo duet*

sorry, I laughed at this too

(at Sanssouci, Fritz came back immediately after the battle)

HAHAHAHA

[personal profile] selenak: But he wasn't executed! ... Never mind.

LOL!

Epilogue scenes in quick montage: *Fritz wins at Prague, loses at Kolin, but doesn't have a melt down because he's too manly and tough for that but says he'll win again in the next one, wins Roßbach and Leuthen after dramatic speech, cut to end of 7 Year War which the narrator tells was was a few years later*

Wow, that was... kind of... whiplash!

Thank you for sharing this creation with us :D

Edited (hit post too soon) 2021-01-04 06:05 (UTC)

Plans to invade and take Silesia by people not Fritz: well, I guess both Poland and Saxony do in fact share borders with Silesia, but Sulkowski planning to take it is entirely invented (by either the tv show or the original novelist). Yes, the Austrian army was in decline, but the Habsburgs still had not only their territories but the entire HRE to draw on (since this was before MT's Dad had died, his rule was uncontested). Such an action would have made August III. an outlaw all the other German princes would have been obliged to go against. And the Saxon army really wasn't nothing much, not least because all the money went elsehwere. If you don't have a completely modern, drilled and well equipped army at your disposal like Fritz did in 1740, in a situation where MT's rule hasn't been accepted yet, it can't be done.

It is, however, in tandem with this show letting the Saxons think of everything first - Silesia, and later the Diplomatic Revolution. (It's true that Brühl was involved in some of the negotiations, but it definitely hadn't been his brainchild.)

...this would seriously distract me, sort of like when I watched Hamilton and the guy playing Hamilton was taller than anyone else in the cast, like, apparently it is totally OK with me that they're all POCs but the height thing is so weird??

I know. It kept bugging me. The Fritz actor in general is taller than most cast members. Then again: Peter O'Toole is way, way, taller than rl T.E. Lawrence was in Lawrence of Arabia, and I never had a problem there, possibly because I first saw the movie before learning about TEL.

The ending is weird. I mean, Brühl just disappears out of the story after he and August III. flee to Warsaw, and we never even learn what became of the Countess Brühl. (Since they don't have children in this miniseries as opposed to rl, the miniseries doesn't have to cover them.) This after having been the villain protagonist for several episodes. So after the two young lovers are reunited and pledged to each other, you get this montage obout the Triumphs Of Fritz (with one defeat in betweeen, which he bears in stoic manliness) and then a sentence to justify the title, and we're done.

What I found interesting from a contemporary history pov is what the series shows, and doesn't show of its locations. Because Dresden in the 1980s didn't look like it does now; a lot of reconstruction and restoriation only happened after the German reunification. So you see some bits and pieces of the royal palaces, but it's no coincidence that the only palace you see completely from the outside Moritzburg, far away from Dresden and in a lake, so there's no WWII damage or modern buildings to cover. And the outside of Sanssouci looks far older and neglected than it does now; clearly they hadn't done a paint job in a while. Not to mention that today, the vineyard is a vineyard again, whereas it wasn't in GDR times (too expensive). What we see of the inside of the Sanssouci palaces is in fine condition, by contrast, though I note the series cheats a bit now and then and lets Fredersdorf and Fritz talk in a room inthe Neue Kammern, not in the main palace itself, while giving the impression we're in the main building. But like I said, you can tell the director and producers decided to milk that permission to film there for all it was worth, and to hell with the fact Fritz would have been with the army in Saxony after the first two or so scenes he has.

But the dogs were really well done. They're not just around running after him; he's shown more than once coddling or stroking them while being a Machiavellian bastard to everyone else, and they're the correct size. I haven'd made a screencap yet because I've never done this before, and I don't know whether it's possible with an Amazon Prime video, but I will try to capture the dog bits and make you and Mildred go awwww.

ETA: Alas. I tried, and I did get screenshots, but it seems they only show black if you do it from Amazon Prime.

Son of ETA: Aha! But the series is also on one of our public broadcast channels and archives, and I just suceeded in a screenshot. Will try further.

Edited 2021-01-04 09:50 (UTC)

I guess both Poland and Saxony do in fact share borders with Silesia, but Sulkowski planning to take it is entirely invented (by either the tv show or the original novelist)

Is it giving them too much credit to speculate that they might have been inspired by the brief Silesian conquest by Saxony a century earlier, during the Thirty Years' War? (When military conditions were entirely different than in the early 18th century.)

ETA: Alas. I tried, and I did get screenshots, but it seems they only show black if you do it from Amazon Prime.

Odd, I've never had problems screenshotting Amazon Prime and was able to do it just now as a test. Googling indicates that it's not possible from an Android phone, but is possible from any web browser. Glad you were able to get us the screenshots from another source, though!

This write-up, complete with your commentary, was comedy gold and informative as always! I loved August the Strong bending an iron bar around Charles XII (he was supposed to have been strong enough to bend horseshoes with his bare hands) and the royal bro code, lol.

Fredersdorf: Will see to it, but why are we still in Sanssouci when it's now autumn of 1756 and we've taken most of Saxony except Pirna and Königstein?

Fritz: Because the producers got permission to film here, and by God, they're going to film here.

I'm still laughing about this, weeks later. At least Ekaterina, fearsome and furry beasts notwithstanding, has him hypothetically in Dresden during the war! Where it was actually filmed, of course, I can't say, not being someone who can tell Dresden vs. St. Petersburg apart.

Glasow: *is a middle aged overweight man*

What.

Fritz: *dictates instructions - in Sanssouci - that if he's shot, the invasion should proceed anyway, and if he's kidnapped, any instructions from him thereafter are to be ignored*

Do we know if he gave these orders during the Seven Years' War? I recognize them from 1741, definitely, but am not sure if that was an order he repeated. (Relevant to the fic where he gets captured and Voltaire has to rescue him!)

Italian Greyhound not named out loud*: *dies*

Fritz: REVENGE!

It's a testament to your writing, or the series, or Fritz's personality, or my status as a dog-lover, or something, that my first, second, and third reactions were to think "Revenge for my dead dog!" and only belatedly remember that this was an attempt on Fritz's life, too.

Epilogue scenes in quick montage: *Fritz wins at Prague, loses at Kolin, but doesn't have a melt down because he's too manly and tough for that but says he'll win again in the next one, wins Roßbach and Leuthen after dramatic speech, cut to end of 7 Year War which the narrator tells was was a few years later*

Well, that's...one way to tell the Seven Years' War. A few uneventful years later, in which Kunersdorf and its aftermath definitely didn't happen.

Enjoyed this and the screencaps very much!

I'm never quite sure how much the series recognizes August going from protesting at the mere idea of capturing an enemy leader who's currently occupying his country because of the royal bro code to okaying his mistress being imprisoned for life just because she didn't hand over his pledge to marry her when he demanded it, i.e. on the one hand, sure, it's the plot, but then again August after his death keeps getting praised as a great man, when what you see on screen isn't morally different from Brühl, whom the narrator chides for his "selfish" politics that brought the wrath of Fritz on Saxony. So who knows.

Middle-aged, overweight Glasow: I see several possibilities:

a) It's in the original novel this thing is based on. And a Polish 19th century novelist wouldn't necessarily know what Glasow looked like. Lehndorff's diaries - where such details are mentioned, thank you, Lehndorff! - haven't been published yet. I have no idea whether Preuß or Carlyle, either of whom could have been the author's source material, would have mentioned this. If all the author knew was "Fritz' valet accused of trying to poison him", he might have made an honest mistake.

b) It wasn't in the original novel, but the casting of the tv series saw no reason this guy should be young and good looking. They already had two young and good looking guys playing the OCs of the last two eps, and Glasow could be played by a much cheaper older character actor. One had to save budget money somewhere!

c) It was a deliberate decision because no one wanted the viewers to wonder why Fritz had hired him in the first place. Yes, the script has Countess Brühl make an insinuation as to why Fritz wants Simoni around him, but that can be dismissed as idle enemy gossip.

Do we know if he gave these orders during the Seven Years' War? I recognize them from 1741, definitely, but am not sure if that was an order he repeated.

I don't know for sure, honestly. We do have the letter to Heinrich he wrote before the battle of Zorndorf which is basically "if I'm killed, you're regent - make sure everyone takes the oath to our nephew, and battle on in my name, and definetely do not go for a cheap peace!", but I don't recall instructions about what to do when he gets captured in it. Then again, during the 7 Years War he told everybody and their Catt that he wouldn't get captured because he'd kill himself first, so....

Well, that's...one way to tell the Seven Years' War.

I know, right? I mean, on the one hand, I get it. The emphasis in this overall story is on Saxony, and once it's obvious the Prussian occupation is there to last for the war, that's that. Saxony will never be seen as a rival power again. But it still feels like a weird, hasty wrap up compared to what came before, and like I said - the handling of several characters, including Brühl who is a main character, is just odd, with the off screen end of their story and not even a proper exit.

I have no idea whether Preuß or Carlyle, either of whom could have been the author's source material, would have mentioned this.

Preuss mentions the age, though! He's the source of the petition! Where we discover he was 22, contra Blanning's 20.

Glasow could be played by a much cheaper older character actor. One had to save budget money somewhere!

Heehee! Could be.

Then again, during the 7 Years War he told everybody and their Catt that he wouldn't get captured because he'd kill himself first, so....

True, true. Also, lol at "everybody and their Catt." You are the funniest, Selena!

Guess who is reading Lehndorff again?? Me!

I'd done a couple of lessons of Duolingo pretty consistently every day during our two-month hiatus, and I'm really pleased to report that I can definitely tell a difference. Unsurprisingly, my vocabulary sucks really badly still (the way Duolingo is structured, I can't really learn vocab very well unless it's something I already knew from some other context), but surprisingly, at least to me, the structure of Lehndorff's sentences is, if not transparent, at least quite a bit easier for me to parse than it was before Yuletide, I think just because I've had two months' more practice (and harder lessons) now. So while it's pretty rare for me to be able to figure out a sentence entirely, because I don't know the words, at least I can usually follow it once I refer to the translation for all the words I don't know, which was often not the case before Yuletide.

I'm also seeing what you mean, Selena, about how Lehndorff gets better over time. The word-portraits he does now are still really fun, but not as masterful as that Wartensleben one.

idk how much I'll be able to do -- I expect this is probably about the maximum I can do in one day, especially since weekend -- but as it's also easier now, we'll see how it goes.

-1753 15th June Countess Bentinck! Sort of interesting that she's been mentioned before (at least I think it's the same person?) but this is where he gives the thumbnail sketch. Aw to her being ugly AND the wrong sex for Heinrich :P

What is certain is that she left her Galten to meet a Count v. d. Lippe to live together, who did not shine in the world with the mindset of a Stoic.

LOL

- 17 June the prince plays the viola I had to go show this to my daughter, who plays viola :D (Viola is relatively easy to play if one plays violin.)

- 22 June. The peasants stop us and it makes a funny fight, our servants beat these poor peasants through and they are delighted to receive 16 groschen for all these blows.
Ha ha. Yes I'm sure that was funny and delightful for the peasants. Geez you guys.

-" Obwohl seit vier Jahren Großmutter, ist sie im Begriff sich mit einem jungen Mann zu vermählen, der sie »um der schönen Augen ihrer Schatulle willen« heiratet." So I think this is making a joke about marrying her for her money??

Yes, same Countess Bentinck. It should be said that other than Lehndorff here, everyone describes her as attractive (including Catherine the Great in her memoirs who had a girl crush on her as Bentinck was the first woman she saw riding and generally being cool), so either it's one of these cases where someone is attractive due to their charm, independent of their looks... or Lehndorff was just a bit worried she might convert Heinrich after all. (Her portrait doesn't tell, as it's a standard 18th century female portrait, and unless we're talking older women, these all look alike.

She left her husband, btw, i.e. "Gatten" (Gatte in the accusativ), not "Galten".

Peasants: sigh. Yeah. It has precedent: The Great Prince Elector (aka Fritz' great granddad) once had the citizens of Berlin and the citizens of Spandau (then not yet a part of Berlin) beat each other up for his entertainment. They got paid, too.

So I think this is making a joke about marrying her for her money??

Yes. "Despite having been a grandmother since four years, she's about to marry a young man who weds her for the beautiful eyes of her treasure box."

Ha, good to know about Bentinck. Hee, Lehndorff :D

Ah, thank you for the Gatten/Gatte; I saw those in the German and was a little confused.

And for the explanation of "Schatulle" -- google translated it as "box," not treasure box, which is why I was confused :)

Yay, go you! It's awesome watching your German improving. *applauds*

Mine is improving too, at the cost of salon participation, and I won't be able to provide proactive German commentary in the immediate future, so if you're going to do it now...sorry. :(

The bookseller is supposed to send me another copy of Orieux in English; who knows if/when it will arrive, but I'll keep you posted.

Ha, that's fine! At the glacial pace I'm going, I'll still be around by the time you want to provide commentary! In the meantime I'll just ask questions as they come up :)

Okay, I achieved screencaps. Have some illustrations of the Fritzian parts of the above.

Here are Fritz and Fredersdorf in front of Sanssouci

Here they are in a room supposedly Fritz' audience room. Actually, now that I can look closer at the screen caps, I can see it's not even in the Neue Kammern, it's in the Neuer Palais, which definitely did not exist yet in early 1756 when this is supposed to take place: the great ball room. (Note the Silesian marble!)

Fredersdorf hires a new spy, OC Max de Simoni:

Have sex for Prussia!

Simoni uncovered the Diplomatic Revolution. This is somewhat worrying for our Prussian duo:

For all I make fun of this series and it's massive liberties, they did do their research. Fritz is showing snuffing repeatedly, and note the dogs in the background here:

Now this is a rather good approximation of how Fritz' study might have looked like before it was renovated in his successor's time. This is the scene when he's duetting with hot Swiss spy Simoni.

Since Fritz has taken all the Saxon soldiers and pressed them into his army, August III. sends a messenger asking whether he can at least have his honor guard back when he retreats to Warsaw. Fritz, somewhat preoccupied with his dog, says no.

My dog is more interesting than your message

Now for the big one, the attempted assassination by chocolate scene somewhat later. First, leisure time chez Fritz:

Glasow puts the fateful cup of chocolate on the desk.

Lemme have some chocolate!

The King's love could be deadly, is all I'm saying.

This totally explains the Scourging of Saxony thereafter:

Lastly, I couldn't resist at least one screen cap not featuring our lot but Brühl (in the blue coat) and August III at Königstein, having just received the news the Austrians got defeated at Lobovitz which means they're screwed:

Awesome screenshots, thank you so much!

I feel obliged to point out what Cahn pointed out (and what I had been thinking) when the smell of opium repels her in "Grind": "Well, good, Alcmene, chocolate isn't good for dogs anyway." :P

Per internet search results: "While rarely fatal, chocolate ingestion can result in significant illness."

Poor unnamed doggie. :(

For comparison, Fritz with furry, fearsome beasts (taken from Amazon Prime "Ekaterina" video):

Since they're a Russian breed (borzoi), I imagine they were easier for the producers to obtain. But it's still extremely wrong!!

I must stop here, alas. Am still following with glee and hope to be back in the near future.

Edited 2021-01-04 15:03 (UTC)

Re: chocolate - I know, which is why in one of my stories, Fritz regretfully declines letting his dog drink from it. Bad scriptwriters!

BTW, I still can't get screeshots from Amazon Prime, not from any of my pc browsers, not on my Ipad. Maybe it's a regional thing due to European copyright law? Then again, I can get screenshots from our public broadcast tv. Anyway - the fearsome beasts in place of the Italian Greyhounds are lol-worthy.

Yeah, it occurred to me it might be a German/European thing. *shrug*

I know, I was thinking of your story as well! Let's hope 18th century Fritz knew that chocolate was bad for dogs (I'm not sure when that was discovered).

Anyway - the fearsome beasts in place of the Italian Greyhounds are lol-worthy.

And so shaggy!

Boring work meeting multitasking ETA: Also, I don't know whether opium actually repels dogs (googling says it smells/tastes strongly bitter), but I deliberately left it ambiguous whether a second, unidentified poison (in the snuff) was involved, because mystery author copout. ;)

Edited 2021-01-04 16:47 (UTC)

OK, so, this kind of confused me even more so than the height -- I do know from mildred's notes for "Counterpoint" that at the time Fritz and Fredersdorf met, Fritz was kind of filling out and Fredersdorf was not particularly stout, so I sort of imagined that was always true?? but maybe not?? but anyway, because of this, the screenshot where Fritz is the tall skinny one and Fredersdorf is the short stout one was extremely confusing for my brain

That being said, I'm pretty impressed by how much the actor actually looks like Fritz, so I guess I can see why they went with the tall guy (lol, you know what I'm thinking of typing that)

I laughed pretty hard at the "Have sex for Prussia!" and the beatific look on Fredersdorf's face, excellent screenshotting :D

This totally explains the Scourging of Saxony thereafter:

I laughed so hard at the look you captured on Fritz's face here that my 10-year-old demanded to know what I was laughing at and I showed it to her; she also thought it was funny (although she just knows Frederick the Great as "that person mom seems to talk about a lot for some reason")

Re: Fritz and Fredersdorf's respective figures - actually your original impression was correct, going by what we know. Fritz didn't become thin until the 7 Years war, where he really had a major weight loss. (He remained thin thereafter.) Fredersdorf, otoh, if you compare the two portraits we have, the one from my icon to this one from later in his life seems to have lost some weight, if anything, though nothing as dramatic as Fritz pre 7 Years War to Fritz post 7 Years War. Meaning: in early 1756, when these scenes take place, their weights are wrong for the characters. But yes, the Fritz actor does look very much like him anyway.

I'm glad my evil intentions in making these screenshots worked, and made you laugh. :)

I had not picked up on Fredersdorf losing weight, that's interesting. I've always imagined he put some weight on after 1732, when moving in with the Crown Prince and the making-up-for-lost-time table Fritz set. And of course we have no Fredersdorf paintings from before then to tell us, so that's just my headcanon. He might have been stout in 1731 when meeting Fritz! Though his age plus his peasant background plus the army plus the cost of food makes me think otherwise.

But Fredersdorf losing weight in his later years, probably related to his health issues, is interesting. Noted for fic purposes!

cahn, you remembered correctly, that Fritz starts commenting on putting on weight in 1731, at Küstrin. In late 1756, when the war started, he decides that food is for weaklings, and his loved ones start freaking out, as described by this thread. By 1758, Catt is startled by the change from when he last saw Fritz in 1755.

Apropos your lovely icon post: the more often I see this version of him, the more I like it. Even if he's very gaunt and very tall and doesn't have blue eyes.

One thing I've been wondering, though - is that flute authentic? I know the colour is, but it seems quite large. (Thinking about it, as does the book. As I've learned, Fritz liked his octavos.)

While I doubt they let the film people use one of Fritz' rl flutes (aka the one still on exhibition in Sanssouci), my guess is that they did go to the trouble of having someone create an accurate reproduction. As far as I recall, the size fits what I've seen from this kind of 18th century traverse flute. (Hence the need to take the flute apart for transport.)

Re: Arno W. as Fritz - I know what you mean. :) The gauntness can be handwaved since an icon doesn't say this is before and early in the 7 Years War, not in the later stages and after when he actually was gaunt, and his tallness comes across when he's next to other people, which except for the Fredersdorf one he's not in the icons.) (Otoh you really see that the Italian greyhounds were pets, not hunting or attack dogs, definitely small enough to be put under one's coat in the winter...)

Yes, the eye color has been bugging me! Even more than the height, lol. (The gauntness a little bit, though it does look like him starting a couple years later, so there's that.)

ngl, the tallness bothers me, especially in the pic where he's next to Fredersdorf-the-short, lol. But lol, until you said it I didn't even notice he didn't have blue eyes!

THE EYES. THEY'RE ALL WRONG. *is bugged* :P

These are great! Sorry I was so busy when you posted this write-up and these screenshots. I feel like maybe the salon with its knowledge of this level of detail was not the target audience for this series. ;) I love watching you go, "That's the Neues Palais! (Note the Silesian marble.) This is all kinds of wrong!"

Fredersdorf's facial expression is pure gold, that's hilarious.

And yes, wow, I see what you mean about Sanssouci needing a paint job back in the day. Well, it probably needed one toward the end of Fritz's life anyway. ;)

The King's love could be deadly, is all I'm saying.

For those who don't recognize this line, it's a quote from biographer Burgdorf, reviewed by Selena here.

Fritz's facial expression, OMG! Saxony, you are going to GET IT. These are great, thank you. :) And they made wonderful icons!

And yes, wow, I see what you mean about Sanssouci needing a paint job back in the day. Well, it probably needed one toward the end of Fritz's life anyway. ;)

Definitely, but not yet in early 1756! Incidentally, it didn't escape my notice they never show the entirety of Pillnitz, either, though they keep showing the (indeed very beautiful) waterfront with the stairs, which makes me conclude that Pillnitz used to look run down in the 1980s, too, not like today when it is restored to full beauty.

Trust you to recognize Burgdorf's pretentious line in its full pretentious glory. :)

Fritz's facial expression, OMG! Saxony, you are going to GET IT.

Yes indeed. That's why Nadasty made the right call when returning Biche to Fritz unharmed instead of letting his wife keep her. Who knows whether a single Pandur would have survived otherwise!

I spent my holidays not really working for Uni and instead found some... stuff while browsing the online parts of the university library.

Namely, I found a pdf of that "Katte - Ein Schauspiel in fünf Aufzügen" stage play from 1914 (my university apparently owns three physical copies as well and I just want to ask WHY). I don't know if any of you have read it already, but it's... wild. It is also an earlier example of the "Katte was totes in love with Wilhelmine"-trope found in the musical and has his last words be "Long live the King"... And SD is actually all for Wilhelmine marrying Fritz of Bayreuth and only worried for her happiness. Some interesting decisions were made.

I could try to make a post summing everything up for you if that is of interest. It is definitely fun, in a weird way :'D

Another strange thing I've found, luckily not in my university library, is that there is, apparently, a digital anime trading card game where you can collect people from history, mythology, and literature in... anime-girl-form. Among the people featured as anime-girl trading cards are Fritz, Voltaire, Peter the Great and Stalin. Stalin has bunny ears. I do not wish to type that sentence ever again.

Away from weird stuff and onto more scholarly things: I got myself an exhibition catalogue from a 1994 Rheinsberg exhibition on portraits of Heinrich. It has some fun images that I have not necessarily found online (including a carricature which I love dearly) as well as contemporary descriptions of him and is quite fun to read. I could try to scan/photograph it and send you a pdf version, if you'd like that :D

On behalf of all of us, YES to all of the above. :D

What Mildred said. ;) Especially the catalogue.

Re: "Lang lebe der König" in a Katte drama from 1914 - the date is almost too perfect, because that's the mentality which got us into WWI all over. (I'm now imagining the ending of Heinrich Mann's novel Der Untertan, also published in 1914 before the publisher had to stop because of war censorship, and the film version by Wolfgang Staudte culminating in a mightly thunderstorm blowing all the Wilhelminians away while "The Subject" Diederich Heßling clings to holding his Hohenzollern-praising nationalistic speech...

Otoh, I wouldn't be surprised if the Katte/Wilhelmine trope shows up even earlier than that. Not only does historical drama love its invented love stories in general, but the male code of behavior changed in the 19th century so much (no more 18th century emo, and definitely no more high heels and colorful fashion!) while simultanously the cult of Fritz reigned along with censorship that I could see people coming up with this to premptively remove the slightest suspicion that the big national hero could have been romantically attached to a man (and vice versa). I mean, we're talking about a country where Voltaire's memoirs weren't allowed to be reprinted until after WWI. (They had been translated into German and printed in 1784 already, but post Napoleonic Prussia and then Germany certainly did not allow any more of this French slander of The GREAT to be sold.)

Yes please! :D

...I... think I might need to see these anime-girl trading cards, now that I know they exist. Wow.

Ask and you shall receive. Do not sue me for possible damages. I would have had you guess which one's which, but sadly there are names on the cards.

First: the Russians

images

"A Russian enlightened monarch. As a curious person, she is a reformist and tries to renovate anything that she thinks is necessary. Sometimes, being too curious, she disassemble things. So, it is wise to hide valuables from her."

images

"The World strongest dictator and Mother of Soviet Union. Her child-like physique raised many doubts from other people. But those who badmouthed about her, ended up being purged by her."

images

"An empress of Russia who is encouraging cultural renaissance. She became an empress by driving out the old, incompetent regime. By a surprising radical reformation policy, she takes care of people and tries hard to make Russia a powerful nation. But, this is followed by a growing counter force, which worries her."

Now Voltaire...

images

"An eccentric philosopher, known for her practice of Tolerancia. She is cheerful and welcoming to everyone. Wild and rebellious at heart, her defiant stance against the system garnered many followers."

And the the one and only...
images

"An enlightened monarch who likes to lead her military forces. As a boyish queen looking natural in her military uniform, she’s always energetic like a man. With a mission to protect her country from neighbours, she’s interested in modern military technology."

Honestly, if they looked a bit more like their historical counterparts it would have been a lot more fun. Why did they not attempt to make Peter the Great kawaii? Why not give Stalin big sparkly eyes?

MY EYES! You did warn me, lol, I have only myself to blame. WOW. That is something else, indeed. I... don't even know... what to say about these. Friedrina????

I agree it would have been more fun to make them look just a tiny bit more like their historical counterparts! (Voltaire??)

MY EYES! You did warn me, lol, I have only myself to blame. WOW.

This. WOW.

(Or at least performing in it as a child.)

Per Wikipedia,

In 1720, following the example of Louis XIV, Villeroy had the young Louis dance in public in two ballets at the Tuileries Palace on 24 February 1720, and again in The Ballet des Elements on 31 December 1721. The shy Louis evidently did not enjoy the experience; he never danced in another ballet.

Edited 2021-01-05 02:06 (UTC)

But everything was abeautiful at the ballet....

(And here one would think FW and Louis XV had nothing in common!)

Right? But Horowski confirms! I just reached that part of the book this morning, and indeed, Louis XV developed "a lifelong aversion to ballet" due to his tutor's attempt to turn him into a clone of Louis XIV.

FW: See? You *can* traumatize your kids ~~by trying to turn them into a copy of you~~ with ballet!
Fritz: *cough*

Edited 2021-01-05 18:48 (UTC)

Ha! (I love that song, though I've never seen the entire musical or movie.)

I saw it on stage, actually, the very first time I visited NYC, as a fourteen years old kid participating in a students exchange program. (Which included one week in New York, and a musical on Broadway. Yay!)

Eeeeee, that sounds amazing! <3

(My first Broadway musical, at around the same age, when we were visiting my uncle who had just moved to NJ, was Les Miserables, which -- I suppose saying it changed my life might be hyperbole, but it definitely had a really really strong effect on me.)

Alright, here's the kind of crappy pdf that I managed to create with my phone camera and an app that I have cursed about 200 times since I downloaded it this morning:
"Prinz Heinrich von Preußen in Bildnissen seiner Zeit"

It should be legible (mostly), although the image quality could be better.

I originally got this catalogue with the idea that I might be able to write about Heinrich's superior taste in wigs for an art history class I'm taking, but, according to my professor, wigs are the topic that is pretty much the most difficult to research with the art history library being closed. Soooo that didn't work out, but I am still very happy with my purchase :D One of my personal favourites is this "caricature by an unknown artist", I think it's rather charming:
images

Almost as charming as Louise-Elisabeth Vigée-Lebrun writing how she "can barely describe how ugly [she] thought [Heinrich] was".

I'll probably try to properly scan the image parts of the catalogue at some point, but until then I can also just send you better images outside of the pdf if the need arises ^^

Aw, thank you! That's great. And LOL on everyone being so relentlessly down on Heinrich's looks (once he's past 40 anyway). Somewhere in my mind, Lehndorff mutters he stands by his assessment that Heinrich in riding pants is "beautiful as an angel". ;) (Seriously though, that assessment alone against everyone else's opinion shows how smitten Lehndorff was.)

omg this is so great :D I'm glad you scanned the caricature separately, that's really charming :D Especially in conjunction with the more formal portraits, where everything is presumably rather smoothed out, so I assume the truth is somewhere in between the two :D

(I also love that they included a pic of the obelisk! Because OF COURSE.)

And even a couple of portraits of Mina/Wilhelmine! (whyyyyy does everyone have to have the same name, for a minute I thought that was Wilhelmine-the-sister instead of Wilelmine-the-wife and was like, this looks different than other pics I've seen? But then I read the caption more carefully) I don't think I'd seen a pic of Mina before. Even allowing for portrait flattery she does look awfully charming.

It's interesting to me that the caricature and a couple of the other more informal artworks show him with a big nose, but the portraits don't. Is this a function of him actually having a (relatively) big nose (though I assume not as big as the caricatured one :) ) but the portraits minimizing it?

(My German is still not good enough to read this properly (besides puzzling out captions, lol) -- maybe once I'm done with Lehndorff -- so feel free to tell me about anything else cool from the text :D )

Another picture that I could not stop laughing about is the Swedish one. You could go skiing on that wig. That wig is higher than the highest hills of Brandenburg.

Since we already had the nose-minimizing going on with Fritz, I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened with Heinrich. Although they definitely had different noses, since nobody with eyes would describe Fritz's nose as "upturned".

Among the "descriptions of his looks and character" is one that describes a typical day in the life of 1790s Heinrich, including an outfit that I need to draw:

"His dress was French and cut in the style of the 80s, in summer it was made of silk or satin, in winter of fine woolen cloth that was embroidered or decorated with braids, he was always wearing trousers or stockings of silk and shoes with big buckles. A pair of enormous watchchains was hanging down in the front, combined with a flower-patterned waistcoat, big diamond rings on the fingers, a cane with a golden head and a long silken cane-band attached to it, a small, triangular hat with a steel- or, on celebration days, a diamond pin, in his hand a golden snuffbox and some sort of small binoculars in his pocket, a powdered wig with curls and a small braid; in the mornings, apparently, a cadogan imitating his own hair, and, of course, jabots and cuffs"

Later he is described wearing "a wig with curlers and a big round hat". I love him so much.

YES pleeeeeease draw this!!

Also, now that Yuletide has been revealed, gonna request Amalie curtseying deeply to Heinrich and Sophie(/Catherine) and Heinrich dancing, or possibly playing hide and seek, or possibly dividing up Poland between them. :D I'll let mildred or selena request something related to time-traveling valets :D

(Of course as always feel free to totally ignore my requests!)

Regarding the caricature, it seems like it was one of fifteen (all different people), see this article published in the Hohenzollern Yearbook 1901, particularly page four, which has Fritz in the middle, Ferdinand to his lower right (standing on his toes, ha), and apparently George Keith in the upper right corner (I really like this one). Don't know any of the others (see pages 3 and 7 for the names).

Awesome find! The Hohenzollern Yearbook is on my list for when I can read German properly, it seems to have a lot of goodies.

The Borckes and Lentulus I recognize, and Pirch is probably related to our Carel--his father was a Georg Ernst, and this is a Georg Ludwig, so could be a different branch. Selena may know more!

Back to work so I can do German later...

The Hohenzollern Yearbook is on my list for when I can read German properly, it seems to have a lot of goodies.

Possibly, yeah. A couple of the titles I skimmed sound interesting. I ended up there a couple of weeks ago because I was looking for this Koser article from 1897, which collects quotes about Fritz' looks (you know, priorities and all that), most of which I'd also read elsewhere (not least thanks to you guys).

It also has this little 1780s anecdote about Heinrich, witnessed and later written down by a young Marwitz boy (born 1777): As we were going up the great staircase, a little old man came running past us with fixed eyes and jumped down the stairs in arcs. My court master called out in astonishment: "That was Prince Heinrich!" We now stepped into the window on the first floor and looked to see what could induce the little man to use such arcs. And, lo and behold, the king came to visit him.
I was most impressed because Heinrich wasn't exactly the youngest at that point, either. ;)

--

Finally, in case of interest, I posted a couple of winter pictures of the Sanssouci grounds in my journal earlier, all from years ago. Kind of anachronistic, since I don't think anybody lived in the two palaces during winter time (?), but still, some views of the snowy grounds. Although sadly, I didn't actually take one of Sanssouci itself that time, no idea why (possibly too many people milling about).

Sanssouci pictures are always of interest to me, whatever the season! I envy you getting to visit it in different seasons. Where do you live, may I ask?

Also, yes, as far as I know, it was only Fritz's palace from April/May to the beginning of October, but I still love seeing it. If only because I have an abundance of fanfic in my head that isn't tied to canon. :P Next time you go in winter, I would like to commission a picture of the palace itself, no matter how many people are milling about! :D

Okay, I just added one more for you - it's a scan of an analog picture and has less snow (if more cold, which you can't really see except for the frozen pond), but it does have a parterre view of the castle in winter.

Aww, thank you! We get to commission photographs from you and drawings from

prinzsorgenfrei now, this is so amazing. <3

I wish! But while I used to live close by for a while and therefore have pictures from several visits, I don't anymore. :(
(This fandom certainly made me miss it.)

Commissioning old pictures is cool too! I have a grand total of 6 (?) pictures from one visit, so more are always welcome. :)

Because the 2012 musical is just the tip of the iceberg.

To get some dates in: “Katte – Ein Schauspiel in fünf Aufzügen“ was published in Leipzig in 1914 and premiered on stage in Dresden on November 6th of the same year. The author, Hermann Burte, was a raging Nazi and this play is apparently one of his less bad works. It is, supposedly, a tragedy and it is obvious that Burte has read some primary sources, like Wilhelmine’s memoirs and Katte’s farewell letters, both of which he quotes verbatim at times. He just decides to ignore some parts.

Act 1 (of five)

We begin our journey in the city palace of Berlin with Crown Prince Friedrich and Princess Wilhelmine playing the flute and lute respectively. Fräulein von Sonsfeld is “in the background”, doing God knows what.

Enter: Our Hero.

Katte informs the siblings and the audience about the newest developments in the English marriage endeavour and is not above using long pauses for dramatic effect:

Katte: “Sir Hotham is…”
Fritz: (after a long, dramatic pause) “…Yes?”
Katte: “Leaving…”
Wilhelmine & Fritz: “Leaving!”
Katte: “Because England wanted Grumbkow fired…”
Fritz: “Fired!”
Katte: “Because he is, allegedly, on the Austrian payroll…”
Wilhelmine: “He is.”
Katte: “And they have found letters....”
Fritz: “Letters?!”
Katte: “In which he talks shit about the King.”

We’ve got a very eloquent Crown Prince, haven’t we?
Katte tells the siblings that Grumbkow is still FW’s bff because Seckendorff – Grumbkow’s friend, their enemy (yes, he says that. Just in case Fritz and Wilhelmine forgot.) – has gotten his hands on the letters that Fritz wrote to England, so Grumbkow is fine and Fritz is in deep shit and should write to Hotham asap.

But who will deliver the letter? Katte will! And he’ll bring Hotham’s answer too, so Fritz grabs his hand for a moment and, presumably looking deep into his eyes in a very friendly manner, tells him that he would be nothing without his dear friend’s services, to which the dear friend replies that his services would be nothing without Fritz’s friendship. They use “Du” for each other btw. Not that that will be important for too long.

Fritz leaves, Katte, Wilhelmine and Fräulein von Sonsfeld lurking in the shadows remain.

Wilhelmine: “So, Katte, why are you acting as my brother’s mailman?”
Katte: “Oh, you know, I’m just somewhat bored.”
Wilhelmine: “Oh Katte, you’re so brave for not selling my brother out to our dad.“
Katte: “There are other responsibilities than those of a soldier’s oath. Different ones. I love your brother; that I am his friend is my greatest reason for happiness on this earth, the meaning of my existence even. In a very heterosexual way.”
Wilhelmine: “If you weren’t here, he’d find someone else.”
Katte: “Actually, I am pretty sure that I am the most fitting person in the entire Prussian army to be Fritz’s friend. I mean, look at me, I’m great. I’m musically inclined, I know languages, I have travelled, I was a law student, which is somehow relevant, and also the King trusts me like no other, for some reason.”
Wilhelmine: “You’re pretty vain.”
Katte: “No, no! I am also ugly as sin! Have I mentioned that I do not have a girlfriend? Also, for some reason, I get a line about being some kind of grand puppeteer who likes manipulating the people around him, isn’t that heroic.”

The only person Katte is not manipulating is FW, but FW likes him anyways and even had a chat with him asking “Why does my son not love me, Katte? Make him love me, Katte!” and Katte is now convinced that dear old dad is actually the sweetest person, deep deep inside. Wilhelmine has never considered that before.

Fritz returns with the finished letter, Katte leaves.

The Parents show up and have a fight about whether Wilhelmine should just become a nun and after that it’s time for some classic FW (the sweetest person, deep deep inside) yelling at his son, throwing musical instruments across the room and threatening violence. After he tells Fritz that he will accompany him on his travels, Katte returns and FW and he are overjoyed to see each other:

FW: “Katte!”
Katte: “Your Majesty!”
FW: “Your father is Good Prussian Noble Hans Heinrich von Katte and your grandfather on your mother’s side is Good Prussian Noble Alexander Hermann von Wartensleben?!”
Katte: “Indeed!”
FW: “Great! Be a Good Prussian Noble like them! Do you know what that means?”
Katte: “Predestination sucks?”
FW: “Exactly! Also your collar is a centimetre too high, fix that.”

Fritz is told that he will be taking “the younger Keith” as a page for the duration of the journey south and is kind of bummed out that Katte will not be his page, for some reason.

The Parents leave, the other three remain.

Katte, ever FW’s biggest fan, remarks that his Majesty was very merciful and gets himself an earful of Hohenzollern-sarcasm with Wilhelmine saying that the King just wanted to lock her up in a convent for life a little bit and Fritz marvelling at the fact that his face is still intact and his hair was not ripped out, a merciful King indeed.

We have now reached talk of escaping. Wilhelmine is not into it and asks Katte to please say something wise.

Katte: “There are three ways to fix this.”
Fritz: “Running, leaving and getting away?”
Katte: “No. Wilhelmine marrying the Duke of Weißenfels…”
Wilhelmine: “Fuck you AND the Duke of Weißenfels!”
Katte: “We could also sacrifice your mom, since this is all totally just her fault…”
Fritz: “True, but no, so let’s run.”
Katte: “Alright, but please don’t leave before you reach Wesel, it won’t be safe.”
Fritz: “How about no? You won’t order me around, I’m leaving whenever I want to leave.”
Katte: “Then I’m not going.”
images

prinzsorgenfrei: Herr Müller-Lüdenscheidt!
Wilhelmine: “Listen to the nice man, Fritz, wait until Wesel.”
Fritz: “I won’t promise you shit, actually?? Do you want to imprison me like my father is doing already??”
Katte & Wilhelmine: “We literally just want you to not die.”
Fritz: “Well, I won’t promise you shit! See you around!”

And he leaves. This is the last thing we’ll see of him until the execution scene, so I hope you didn’t get too used to his presence. Wilhelmine tells Katte to run after him and work his magic as a master puppeteer, Katte says “Keith is an unreliable Scotsman, so if Fritz leaves before Wesel he’s absolutely fucked and so are we. See you around, your Highness!” and runs after Fritz.

Act 2

We are in Monbijou, where Frau von Kamecke and Fräulein von Sonsfeld are talking about possible ghost sightings during the last few days, especially a commotion that happened in the evening of the 11th of August. Fr. von Kamecke is convinced that shit is about to go down, Frl. von Sonsfeld is not.

Kamecke: “So, in any case, we’re all gonna die. Oh no, here comes your Princess – YES, a BEAUTIFUL celebration, NOTHING TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT! Oh shit, was that an owl outside!? Do you know what that means!?”
Wilhelmine: “That owls scream when they see light.”

Fr. von Kamecke leaves, possibly frightened of either the owl or Wilhelmine’s “I ain’t afraid of no ghost” approach and Wilhelmine is left alone with Frl. von Sonsfeld whom she ends up kissing passionately because she is just so glad to be alive!

People are having fun at the celebration and Frl. von Sonsfeld attributes that to Katte being there and telling funny stories. He is, apparently, being spoiled rotten by the Queen’s affection. We later find out that SD is “telling FW about how great he is”-levels of into Katte. Because literally everyone in this play is super into Katte. Wilhelmine is the least into Katte and she’s supposedly in love with him.

The miniature portrait of totally just Wilhelmine that Fritz is definitely not a part of is mentioned and apparently SD took to the whole “I will not give this back, the Queen should calm down” thing way better here since not only is she not not talking to him anymore but, according to Frl. von Sonsfeld, Katte is “a favourite”.

Katte is also not done by simply saying “The Crown Prince allowed me to copy it, I made it, it’s mine”, no-o, this Katte apparently said that he “would rather die than give up Wilhelmine’s image”. Wilhelmine swoons a little at that and I believe I saw a glimpse of my own brain while rolling my eyes.

Frl. von Sonsfeld mentions that Katte seems a little distraught because he doesn’t listen to people and suddenly sucks at dancing, so Wilhelmine has her call him over.

Wilhelmine: “Oh no, he’s pale and distracted and telling funny stories! What does this mean? Oh, his fate truly seems to be written all over his face! I do not know how I should know his fate or why the author thought that including the thing about Katte “always looking somewhat grim as if he already knew his fate” was necessary since I wrote that line over a decade later when I, in fact, knew his fate, but whatever. Hey, Katte, why are you only funny when I am not around?”
Katte: “Funny is a word that is hard to define, but apparently the rest of the court had a blast listening to me talking about figuring out my horse’s dietary restrictions after it almost died. I don’t get it either, maybe I’m just that charming.”
Wilhelmine: “You’re looking a little worse for wear and there’s a twitch right where your eyebrows, that even this Katte-approving version of me can’t not comment on, are connected in the middle. What are you worried about?”
Katte: “Alright, I will speak. You know my relationship with the Crown Prince.”
Wilhelmine: “I will react to this statement with “a pained movement” that the author of this summary still does not know how to interpret in other ways than “don’t make me think about the fact that you’re screwing my brother”.”
Katte: “First up, my collar is up to code today. Maybe it is a metaphor, who knows. Now let me tell you about how Fritz and your dad not getting along is tearing my heart apart because I love them both so much and I am still FW’s biggest fan and I honestly don’t get why Fritz has a problem with him. So anyway, I can’t give either of them my whole heart, I am so torn, I think I might die. Onto the actual happenings: I think Fritz has been captured.”
Wilhelmine: “Okay then, leave Berlin asap.”
Katte: "No, I can't leave, all of the King's wrath would come down onto the Crown Prince and you! So I intend to sacrifice myself to save my Prince. However! If you fled with me, I would go! Because fuck what happens to Fritz, I guess. Having feelings that are consistent for more than two lines is hard for me."
Wilhelmine: “Do me a favour and run, I do not want your sacrifice.”
Katte: “Am I not good enough?” D:
Wilhelmine: “Listen, I just vaguely want you not to die and Fritz would say the same.”
Katte: “Who? Anyway, are you mad at me because I did not give that picture back to you?” D:
Wilhelmine: “Alright, I’ll let you have a love confession, now run.”
Katte: “Well, now I REALLY want to die for you! Can I have this last dance?”

While they dance, Fr. von Kamecke gets the letter notifying her that Fritz tried to flee, connects the dots to the ghost sightings and leaves to tell the Queen.

Katte tells Wilhelmine that he will send her a box full of evidence to destroy, tells her where to find his signet and leaves when the Queen starts screaming.

Change of scenery, Katte’s friend Holtzendorff appears and lets Katte know that they got time off to go to Malchow. Katte says that he doesn’t need it anymore because he will get arrested. Then he gets arrested.

End of Act 2. I’ll do the rest as soon as I can!

Ah, this is so great and your commentary is amazing! I laughed so many times I cannot tell you. I would tell you, but I've got to go study German, so I'll just say--keep it coming! :D :D

I will say that I took a look at this before you started summarizing, and being me I spent the most time on the execution and Fritz and Katte's last interaction, and I noticed a "Mein Bruder Jonathan." Uh huh. Yeah. Mein extremely heterosexual Bruder. :P

Be fair - the Jonathan comparison is primary source canon, and it’s the Küstrin garnison preacher who first made it! (In that description where Katte is looking for Fritz “his Jonathon”, which also makes FW Saul.) (Same preacher who reassures Hans Heinrich that his son is now with the angels before God’s throne, etc.)

(This said, no budding Nazi writer in 1914 can claim innocence to the Jonathan comparison, especially if he’s going to all this trouble to hook up Katte with Michal, err, Wilhelmine.)

I know! I recognized it immediately and knew the source! (After all the time we spent on the Katte execution sources, I'd better.) It's the "Bruder" part I was questioning. I don't remember that, do you? :P

This is hysterical, from the expressionist exclamations and repeats onwards. Thank you so much for summing it up for us! I think my favourite detail is Katte adressing Fritz as "Herr Oberst". (Which, okay, was his rank in the army at the time, but seriously, Königliche Hoheit/Mein Prinz or nothing.)

Trying for some semiserious comments on what sounds like a terrible play: Katte being that loyal to FW makes me wonder whether Burte was a fan of not even Schiller's, but Verdi's Don Carlos. (Not Schiller's because Schiller's Posa feels a bit sorry for Philip at best, but well, he starts the play conspiring for Dutch freedom, so "should I be loyal to my King or my crown prince?" never is an issue.) Otoh "how do I get my son to love me?/Why doesn't my son love me?" is actually not that inaccurate for FW as such (not as a question to Katte, for his attitude, I mean). We're talking about the man who wrote instructions to little Fritz' educators that they were never to threaten him with FW's anger, only with the Queen's, because he wanted to be loved, not feared by his son, and who according to the Braunschweig envoy loved shopping for Christmas treats himself to give his smaller kids. He just was utterly and completely unable to make a connection between behaving like a tyrant at any sign Fritz wasn't a little replica liking the exact same things FW did, and being feared.

Anyway, as it's impossible to be a German playwright and not to have read your Schiller, I do think making FW seek out Katte as a confidant was probably some backwards projecting of the Philip-Posa-Carlos constellation on FW-Katte-Fritz on Burte's part.

Ahahahaha, I see on refresh that you have made the Schiller and Verdi connection as well :D Except you are all analytic and profound about it, and I'm like "Verdi ships eeeeeveryone with Rodrigo, just like this Katte!" :D But yeah, the relationship between Katte and FW in the summary very much reminded me of the Rodrigo/Philip relationship in the opera.

I'm glad you're having fun with this so far :D

"Herr Oberst" only appears this one time in direct response to Fritz switching from "du" to "Herr Leutnant" in order to get Katte to desert the army by citing his higher rank... in the army, which is an interesting approach (direct quote following this exchange: "Ich befehle, als Vorgesetzter!"). Usually it's "du" from both of them in act 1 and Fritz in act 5 with one "königliche Hoheit" used when talking about the whole marriage thing and one "mein Prinz" in act 5.

I did recognize FW's whole "love me"-thing (he says it to Fritz himself too during the whole "will Wilhelmine become a nun" conversation that I did not write much about), I just thought the mental image of him telling Katte of all people was a bit strange. So far, Burte has not really managed to back up the claim that FW is actually the sweetest person (deep deep inside) beyond Katte telling the audience/Wilhelmine that he is, so it feels a little unwarranted from a "theatrical" point of view...? Especially because Burte usually loves exposition dumping. FW gets more stage time in acts 3 and 4 and I did not read everything too closely on my first read through, so I might find something yet.

Now I regret not having read Don Carlos, that might have been interesting for comparison :'D I'll have to look for a Katte play closer to Faust or Die Räuber

I have had a standing request for years: if you ever find a digital (or otherwise playable by me in the US) Schiller Don Carlos production, pleeeeease let me know! Paying for it is just fine, as long as I can actually play it (i.e., if it is a DVD has to be US-playable). German is fine and subtitles, English or otherwise, are not necessary. (Always nice, of course, but at this point I'd take anything!)

But anyway here I come with the opera links :D (For the most concentrated Katte-extrapolated-to-play experience I'd go with the first (Hampson and van Dam) and the abridged scene with just the "looooove me" bit, but I couldn't resist giving you the rest.)

This Don Carlos (Hampson, van Dam) unfortunately only has subtitles in French but has a fabulously emo ~~Katte~~ Rodrigo (with a really unfortunate wig, yes); this is an older French version so the text is a lot closer to Schiller than in the below (revised Italian) version. (Selena, this is the version I sent you in audio :) ) Also Hampson is fairly young here (for an opera singer) and kind of gives me more Katte vibes than the second version, I must admit.

This is the whole opera which you probably don't want to watch (and should skip the first hour anyway unless you really really like opera) but the one Rodrigo & Philip (Katte & FW) scene is not too long. Obviously there are some differences (e.g., Rodrigo is really into freedom, and there's a whole love triangle with the Prince and the King's new wife) but I think you'll see what Selena and I mean about how the Tragicomedy might have been cribbing some from it...
1:16:30 to 1:26:45 for the whole scene
1:23:05 to 1:26:45 for just the "looooove me" bit (it's super touchy feely, I love it)

But I must also give you my favorite Don Carlo Rodrigo & Philip (read: Katte & FW) -- Keenlyside and Furlanetto -- where Philip/FW just waaaaants to be looooved. Again this is the whole opera which you probably don't want to watch but the one scene is not too long: 1:19:15 to 1:32:00, and if you just want the "why can't everyone love me I am soooo saaaad help me out here ~~Katte~~ Rodrigo" then 1:29:05 to 1:32:00. This one has definitely gone away a bit from the Katte/Fritz/FW vibes, but I include it because you can still see some vibes and it's my fave :)

Earlier there is a scene where Rodrigo is getting it on with all of Elisabeth's ladies-in-waiting, some of the directors really ship him with everyone, lol.

/trying to distract myself from the state of the country

You know, your title makes me imagine a crack crossover or fusion...

Katte in Rodrigo's place: does not go through all the complicated plotting and actually tells Carlos what's going on, but otoh utterly bungles the interlude with impressing Philipp in the first place, because Katte is trained to never talk back to the autocrat. So no Sire, geben Sie Gedankenfreiheit!" speech. At best, it's "look, Alba and Domingo are plotting to marry your son to A PROTESTANT PRINCESS, him wanting to flee is just to avoid this!"

Rodrigo, in Katte's place: When Fritz first suggests running away in Zeithain, doesn't try to dissuade him but starts a super complicated scheme where he reports to FW about Fritz' debts (i.e. the minor, forgivable misdemeanour), thus making FW trust him and charge him with escorting the Crown Prince back to Berlin. This would have put Rodrigo in the ideal position to escape with Fritz before anyone notices, but alas, he's forgotten to tell Fritz this was the plan, so Fritz, finding out Rodrigo ratted him out about the debts, heartbrokenly confides in a Potsdam Giant. (Look, it's hard to find an equivalent to Eboli!) Disaster ensues...

BTW, I just looked, and Amazon US does offer a Schiller Don Carlos production on DVD, pretty expensive (as in 40 plus Euro), but it doesn't say whether it's regionally locked, which I expect, alas, to be the case (otherwise surely they'd advertise it being playable in the US as a plus?)

does not go through all the complicated plotting and actually tells Carlos what's going on, but otoh utterly bungles the interlude with impressing Philipp in the first place

Hee, yeah, on the other hand he might still not have asked for a reward, and Philip doesn't seem to necessarily have a thing for tall guys, so Katte might have a chance? :)

but alas, he's forgotten to tell Fritz this was the plan

OF COURSE HE DID

Fritz, finding out Rodrigo ratted him out about the debts, heartbrokenly confides in a Potsdam Giant. (Look, it's hard to find an equivalent to Eboli!)

HAHAHAHAHA okay this totally made me laugh, that is an inspired Eboli substitution!

Hmmmph, yeah, from all indications I think I'd have to assume that DVD looks regionally locked. But at least they have one? I don't think they did when I was looking two years ago... maybe in another two years something will come up?

OMG. I was stifling my laughter when I read this last night (because my kid was trying to sleep, lol)

In a very heterosexual way.

Of course, Katte!

"Also, for some reason, I get a line about being some kind of grand puppeteer who likes manipulating the people around him, isn’t that heroic.”

ahahahaha OMG ... has someone read Schiller?

Katte: “Predestination sucks?”

Wow, Katte KNOWS

and Wilhelmine is left alone with Frl. von Sonsfeld whom she ends up kissing passionately because she is just so glad to be alive!

...I... was not expecting the pairing to be Wilhelmine/Sonsfeld but you know what, I am ROLLING with it, YEAH.

Because literally everyone in this play is super into Katte

AHAHAHA yeah this does remind me of watching Don Carlo for the first time, actually, where literally all the characters seemed really into Rodrigo

and I believe I saw a glimpse of my own brain while rolling my eyes.

LOL I DON'T BLAME YOU

Oh, his fate truly seems to be written all over his face! I do not know how I should know his fate or why the author thought that including the thing about Katte “always looking somewhat grim as if he already knew his fate” was necessary since I wrote that line over a decade later when I, in fact, knew his fate, but whatever.

HEE

Wilhelmine: “I will react to this statement with “a pained movement” that the author of this summary still does not know how to interpret in other ways than “don’t make me think about the fact that you’re screwing my brother”.”

...I laughed so hard, I can't even tell you. This was hilarious and I am looking forward to the next part!

ZOMG, this was an amazing write-up, thank you so much!

We’ve got a very eloquent Crown Prince, haven’t we?

LOL

They use “Du” for each other btw. Not that that will be important for too long.

Lolsob.

I love your brother; that I am his friend is my greatest reason for happiness on this earth, the meaning of my existence even. In a very heterosexual way.

*dies*

I was a law student, which is somehow relevant

LOLOLOL

Wilhelmine has never considered that before.

And will never, I suspect.

Katte: “Alright, but please don’t leave before you reach Wesel, it won’t be safe.”
Wilhelmine: “Listen to the nice man, Fritz, wait until Wesel.”

This is exactly what I was going to bring up during the "What would Fritz do with time travel?" discussion: Selena proposed leaving earlier on the south Germany trip, and I've been meaning to ask why? Given the geography, everyone (at least Katte that I know of) was trying to get Fritz to wait until Wesel. Fritz's great besetting sin in life was not putting things off, it was jumping the gun. (I totally understand why he did on this occasion, but.)

That said, it so happens that in thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that Wesel specifically might have been too late: it was when FW got to Gueldern that he discovered Peter Keith had deserted. Given that he'd sent Peter to Wesel earlier that year specifically because he knew Peter was helping Fritz with his escape plans, this discover might have been enough to make FW tighten the guard on Fritz before he had a chance to sneak out of Wesel. (Again, I understand why Fritz feared putting it off until it was too late and would rather give himself multiple opportunities, and of course I understand his inability to wait one more day, even beside his normal "I'd rather be a hammer than an anvil" personality, as one biographer put it.)

See the chronology map I put together.

Keith is an unreliable Scotsman

Hello, 1914 Germany!

Wilhelmine: “That owls scream when they see light.”

Ha! This is so Wilhelmine; her memoirs are full of things like this.

Because literally everyone in this play is super into Katte. Wilhelmine is the least into Katte and she’s supposedly in love with him.

LOL FOREVER

Katte is also not done by simply saying “The Crown Prince allowed me to copy it, I made it, it’s mine”, no-o, this Katte apparently said that he “would rather die than give up Wilhelmine’s image”. Wilhelmine swoons a little at that and I believe I saw a glimpse of my own brain while rolling my eyes.

LOL FOREVER SQUARED

Katte: “Funny is a word that is hard to define, but apparently the rest of the court had a blast listening to me talking about figuring out my horse’s dietary restrictions after it almost died. I don’t get it either, maybe I’m just that charming.”

Okay, so...are the horse's dietary restrictions your own invention or is this in the play? I must know!

Because fuck what happens to Fritz, I guess. Having feelings that are consistent for more than two lines is hard for me."

LOLOLOL I AM DEAD FROM LOLZ

Katte says that he doesn’t need it anymore because he will get arrested.

Wow. That's...something.

Thank you for this, this is so great!

Selena proposed leaving earlier on the south Germany trip, and I've been meaning to ask why?

I don't disagree with you on geography, and that Wesel would have been the perfect transition point on that count because he can go to the Netherlands from there right away. But time travelling Fritz would know that the game was essentially up by then already, not just for him but also Katte and Keith, whereas no one expects him to make a run for it earlier. And the Rhineland principalities and free cities are full of anti-Prussian feeling, while Ansbach, where they wanted to visit his sister, after all, is like neighboring Bayreuth surrounded by Catholic Church territory where FW has pissed off the Prince Bishops by kidnapping some of their taller subjects. Meaning: they might not be so eager to help FW pursue and arrest his fleeing son.

Ha! This is so Wilhelmine; her memoirs are full of things like this.

Indeed! :D I've got to admit, as dumb as this play is: Wilhelmine is done rather well overall (apart from the whole Katte part). She gets some great lines and is generally entertaining. The memoirs appear to be Burte's main primary source and are quoted verbatim at times, but for reasons unknown he does not mention the "Katte, that absolute dumbass, gave me a letter in plain view of Fr. v. Ramen"-scene :P

are the horse's dietary restrictions your own invention or is this in the play? I must know!

I wish I had made this up, but they really are in the play! Katte told people "My horse got terribly sick when we fed it scraps of the bread the army gets, now that we eat all the bread ourselves it's doing great" and people in Monbijou thought it was hilarious. Not even just a small chuckle like "Lol, the army bread sucks", no, he appears to be the star of the party with this story. Katte is also very confused as to why people reacted like that. It's almost as if the "we all think Katte is a swell guy"-algorhythm malfunctioned :'D

To get some dates in: “Katte – Ein Schauspiel in fünf Aufzügen“ was published in Leipzig in 1914 and premiered on stage in Dresden on November 6th of the same year.

cahn, do you know why November 6th, or do you need more repetition? :)

felis, I'm so sorry I was heads-down on my ridiculously long Yuletide fic when you turned up the Gröben letters and I wasn't able to comment! What a great detective job. You would make Amalie, Fredersdorf, and Wilhelmine proud. :D

I agree whole-heartedly with Selena's comment that this is locker room talk (the exact phrase I thought of even before she wrote that) and not proof of a sexual relationship. However, I see that Gröben made into in "Time-Travelling Valet" as our culprit for Fritz's alleged STD in the late 1730s/early 1740s , which I thought was hilarious. :D And entirely possible!

Hypothesis/wanton speculation: The reason Fritz isn't upset when he learns Algarotti has an STD in late 1740 isn't because their relationship is purely platonic (and thus he's neither upset that they have to stop having sex nor worried that he got an STD from Algarotti), but because they *have* been having sex, and Fritz is where Algarotti got the STD from. :P

selenak: Fritz uses "petit-maitre" for "fop". Which stood out to me because that's what FW keeps calling him in his rants, including in the August 1731 submission protocol.

What this reminded me of was Bielfeld's "hot or not" report on Fritz from 1738, where he writes, "A petit maître of Paris would not perhaps admire his frisure; his hair however is of a bright brown, carelessly curled, but well adapted to his countenance."

Speaking of Bielfeld, if anyone is thinking of writing the Strasbourg episode that I didn't write for Yuletide, or otherwise just curious, I noticed while hunting for the petit-maître passage that Bielfeld writes a several-page account with numerous trivial details of interest to fanfiction writers. One minor detail he leaves out is the arrest/detainment. :P Which makes sense if he had his account from his friend Fritz.

I enjoyed his opening line: I much doubt if [Fritz] will ever obtain the title of Saint, but I am certain he will deserve that of Great, if Providence shall prolong his days.

Now, this letter is dated to September 2, 1740, but I have read that this is a collection of material that mixes real letters with material written after the fact and framed as letters, so that line may have been written with the benefit of hindsight, I don't know.

Gröben the STD spreader: I just couldn't resist!

I love the idea re: Algarotti. Does it work out date-wise? (I.e. from when exactly is this letter?)

Thank you for linking Bielfeld's account. I have to say, "The King was a good deal piqued by this indiscretion; for if the marechal knew that it was the King of Prussia, he ought not to have received his visit, but to have prevented him with the marks of utmost repect" is as Fritzian an alternate story for "Broglie locked me up!" that I can imagine. :)

I love the idea re: Algarotti. Does it work out date-wise? (I.e. from when exactly is this letter?)

Well, Algarotti's STD letter is late 1740 (December, iirc), and Fritz's letters to Gröben are from 1734, so Fritz's hypothetical sexual relationship with Gröben would definitely precede the one with Algarotti. That said,

felis tells us that Gröben was transferred out of Fritz's regiment in 1738, so there would have to be a lapse of at least a year (the first encounter between Fritz and Algarotti being 1739).

That said, STDs do often go from symptomatic to asymptomatic to symptomatic, and there were no antibiotics back then to actually *fix* the problem, so the following is possible:

1733-1738: Fritz acquired an STD. Got treated (at the suggestion of the Schwedt brothers?).
1739: Fritz was asymptomatic in 1739 and attributed that to the success of some treatment. Had sex with Algarotti.
Late 1740: Algarotti and Fritz both become symptomatic.
1741: Fritz receives treatment in the field, as Münchow claimed in the 1790s that his brother had told him.

Of course, in 1741, we also have Georgii, so the plot thickens...

The *only* part of this for which we have hard evidence is Fritz writing to Algarotti sympathetically about A having an STD. To my mind that's completely different from Marwitz's STD ~~(which he got from Fritz, royal super-spreader? :P)~~, which was said mockingly and to a third party, under circumstances where Fritz had a lot of incentive to lie or spread unsubstantiated rumors. I thus give it good odds that Algarotti of "six degrees" fame really did have an STD. (Joking aside, if there was a super-spreader, it might well have been him. And if Fritz did have an STD in the field in the 1740s, right after Algarotti turns up symptomatic in late 1740, he might still have gotten it from Algarotti.)

I have to say, "The King was a good deal piqued by this indiscretion; for if the marechal knew that it was the King of Prussia, he ought not to have received his visit, but to have prevented him with the marks of utmost repect" is as Fritzian an alternate story for "Broglie locked me up!" that I can imagine. :)

Yup. Fritz rewriting the history of that event from day 1. Later, AW would be omitted when it was convenient for Fritz to remember it that way.

Way back in November (I am so behind, omg),

selenak made a post on her personal blog about nude statues, and naturally Voltaire's came up.

To which I wrote: Also, I still want to know why Fritz didn't want it. We know he liked nude statues of, or at least, symbolically representing, his boyfriends! Total missed opportunity there. :P

He did at least get a copy of the bust, iirc.

selenak replied: Well, if Orieux is right he never unpacked the bust because he was pissed off about the memoirs, so not wanting the statue might have had a similar reason. Except that the memoirs were only published in 1784, so that wouldn't explain why Fritz didn't aquire the statue previously.

I've been meaning to reply and now finally am here to say that I misremembered slightly: the bust in question was not from Voltaire/Voltaire's people to Fritz, but vice versa. Quoting MacDonogh:

Three years later [so in 1775] KPM was issuing busts of Voltaire, ‘which resemble you in the old days, perhaps even now’, said Frederick. Voltaire peevishly acknowledged the gift of an ‘old man in porcelain’. The king thought it a very good likeness and told d’Alembert it lacked only the power to speak. He recommended that the best effects could be had by reciting the Henriade to it and watching it at the same time.

I absolutely love this image. Oh, Fritz, you never got over your ex, did you? :D

Continuing with the theme of their contentious relationship and its give-and-take:

Voltaire wanted revenge in the form of a Frederick, but the king of Prussia still adhered to his policy of keeping portrait painters at arm’s length, deeming them as adept at flattery as the most refined courtiers. He allowed Anna Dorothea Therbusch, however, to make the familiar bust of him that served as the KPM’s model, injecting a little youthful grace into his raddled face. Voltaire received one in good time. Frederick decided that the bust would be more likely to ‘ruin an apartment than to decorate it’. The king joked that the sculptress had refused to clothe him in the garb of an anchorite.

Never change, Voltaire and Fritz.

KPM is the Königliche Porzellan Manufaktur, or the porcelain factory that Fritz founded after the Seven Years' War.

(I'm still on partial salon hiatus, but have a little more time today, especially as sciatica is interfering with German studies. I mean, in theory I *can* study German at the computer, but it's too easy to get distracted. As you can see. :P)

There is still a copy of that Voltaire porcellain bust at Sanssouci!

Today, it's in the "Voltaire Room", of course. Missing someone reciting the Henriade to it. That really is a wonderful and so telling story.

Tiny correction of KPM - while it's true it didn't exist under that name yet, which was only provided by Fritz post war - it did exist in its earlier form as the Wegely'sche Manufaktur, which was founded in 1751, then sold from Wegely to Gotzkowsky in 1757 because SOMEONE suddenly had access to all the Saxon porcellain they could want and Wegely, to whom Fritz had been his primary patron, promptly went broke. Gotzkowsky kept it going until 1763, and then Fritz bought the factory and renamed it.

(I had to look this up last year at the KPM website because reasons.)

Today, it's in the "Voltaire Room", of course. Missing someone reciting the Henriade to it. That really is a wonderful and so telling story.

It *is*. Next time I go there, I will imagine Fritz reciting to it, with a complicated expression on his own face. "I miss you, you bastard!"

KPM: Yes, you're correct; I was oversimplifying, which I should not do in salon. :) Especially given how if I catch anyone else oversimplifying, I am *right there*. :P

Speaking of Fritz and businesses he owns, I missed my chance to match off HRE in my corporate AU with KPM. :P I was actually imagining Fritz not as the founder (because FW--whom I may have to split into previous CEO and abusive father, who are two different people in this modern AU) but as the new CEO who rebranded the company under a name he liked better when he took over, which is pretty much what historical Fritz did with KPM. That said, Sanssouci has better name recognition among readers, and two three-letter acronyms could get confusing. Still, I'm chuckling at the thought.

Heh. KPM surely would be a subsidiary that Fritz took over? :)

That could work! Another one of his dodgy acquisitions. ;)

He recommended that the best effects could be had by reciting the Henriade to it and watching it at the same time.

Well, that's. Something. Amazing. <3

He recommended that the best effects could be had by reciting the Henriade to it and watching it at the same time.

Wow! Oh Voltaire.

Oh Fritz, I say. But yes, two peas in a pod. <3

ETA: Especially since Voltaire wants his revenge. I wonder if he recited Fritzian poetry (complete with laundry-cleaning, I mean literary criticism) aloud to the Fritzian bust.

Edited 2021-01-09 18:26 (UTC)

LOL! I mistyped (probably because I was thinking about Candide, lol) :) But yes, they are both something :)

HAHAHAHA to him reciting plus criticism to Fritzian bust, this is my headcanon now.

I finally broke down and bought a Candide with proper footnotes so that I could read something by Voltaire now that I'm, like, reading his biography and helping to write fic about him and such :P I'd tried my completely-footnote-less copy last year at around this time, and gave up because although I was enjoying it, I could see that I was missing quite a lot.

I chose this one under the vague idea that "critical edition" was what I wanted, and also I read the sample and thought the footnotes were probably decent enough, whereas most other editions I tried in the five minutes I looked around had no footnotes. I don't know that I'm totally content with the notes now that I have them (they are sort of short) but they're actually not too bad for my uses, as I need them to explicate things I didn't know I was missing, and once I know I'm missing them I can go look them up or ask in salon :) It's the stuff I don't know I'm missing that bothers me...

I've read the first half so far and it turns out the first several chapters are relevant to our fandom :)

Chapter 2 - in which Candide gets recruited into the army of the Bulgars - "Voltaire chose this name to represent the Prussian troops of Frederick the Great because he wanted to make an insinuation of pedastry against both the soldiers and their master. Cf. French bougre, English "bugger."

LOLOLOLOL. This is the kind of thing I'm here for, footnotes! Also as always I think it is hilarious that Voltaire is so stuck on Fritz that he has to make fun of Fritz being gay, lol.

"Two men in blue took note of [Candide]... 'Aren't you five feet five inches tall?'" And the footnote attached to that: "Frederick had a passion for sorting out his soldiers by size; several of his regiments would accept only six-footers."

...surely... they are mixing up Fritz and FW?? But still, this is 5000% funnier now that I know the Fritz/FW connection (tall guys, while sad for the tall guys, is always going to be hilarious to me)

The impressing of Candide into the army of the Bulgars by two guys who accost him in a tavern reminds me a lot of Ulrich Bräker's memoirs that

selenak summarized for us a long time ago. I was going to ask if it was plausible that Voltaire had read his memoirs, but once I finally figured out the name of the guy and was thence able to look him up in rheinsberg, I saw that they were published much later than Candide. Well, I imagine he was just one of many.

Chapter 2/3: "The King of the Bulgars went to war with the King of the Abares." The footnote says here that this is a reference to the Seven Years' War and that "Allegorically, the Abares are the French, who opposed the Prussians in the conflict known to hindsight history as the Seven Years' War."

Me: The French?? Against the Prussians??
Footnote: Look, the Seven Years' War is complicated, okay? We are a footnote, we're not going to get all of this across in our allotted couple of lines. Check out the Battle of Minden, that's what he's referring to, it took place in Westphalia which is where Voltaire has set this bit.
Wikipedia: Yeah, your buddy Ferdinand of Brunswick defeated a French army there.
Me: He's not my buddy, I just thought it was funny that mildred thought of him before Ferdinand... never mind. Fine.

"...the two kings in their respective camps celebrated the victory by having Te Deums sung" -- Also appreciated the note about how this was sung to celebrate victory! By both kings, natch. Don't know if this was intentional, but it sure did remind me of Fritz for obvious reasons.

That's it for Fritz-related hilariousness in the first half (and, idk, maybe for the whole thing, I'll check in once I'm finished), but a couple of random other comments:

After we leave Westphalia and the Bulgars, in Chapter 11, the Old Lady says: "I am in fact the daughter of Pope Urban the Tenth and the Princess of Palestrina." The footnote observes that Voltaire left a note behind on this passage, first published in 1829: "Note the extreme discretion of the author: hitherto there has never been a pope named Urban X; he avoided attributing a bastard to a named Pope. What circumspection! What an exquisite conscience!" I don't know which I think is funnier, the "exquisite conscience!" or the fact that Voltaire is saying all this about himself in third person.

Chapter 16: "How can you expect me to eat ham when I have killed the son of my lord the Baron, and am now condemned never to see the lovely Cunegonde for the rest of my life? Why should I drag out my miserable days, since I must exist far from her in the depths of despair and remorse? And what will the Journal de Trevoux say of all this?" I would have thought this was funny by itself, but the footnote says this is a journal published by the Jesuit order, founded in 1701 and consistently hostile to Voltaire. HEE.

This is greeeat, thank you! When I get around to French, some of Voltaire's nonfiction works (like the Treatise on Tolerance) are on my list, but not Candide, so I'm glad you're covering it for us!

"Voltaire chose this name to represent the Prussian troops of Frederick the Great because he wanted to make an insinuation of pedastry against both the soldiers and their master. Cf. French bougre, English "bugger."

This I actually knew!

"Two men in blue took note of [Candide]... 'Aren't you five feet five inches tall?'" And the footnote attached to that: "Frederick had a passion for sorting out his soldiers by size; several of his regiments would accept only six-footers."

...surely... they are mixing up Fritz and FW?? But still, this is 5000% funnier now that I know the Fritz/FW connection (tall guys, while sad for the tall guys, is always going to be hilarious to me)

They may be, partially? But height requirements were a thing in Fritz's army (this is what Heinrich got dinged for--admitting recruits who didn't meet the requirements), and different regiments definitely had different requirements (and I do recognize five-five as a cutoff...for the cavalry, I think?). The six-foot regiment I'm not sure of; the Potsdam Giants (whose cutoff was six feet) got distributed into other regiments immediately after Fritz became king, and he certainly didn't have a passion for collecting every single tall soldier in Europe. But he may have had some regiments (grenadiers?) who had that as their height requirement. The editor may be confusing this part with FW, but I would be very reluctant to say so; it strikes me as at least 75% likely it's Fritz.

ETA: Further research tells me the Potsdam Giants were an entire regiment under FW, and downgraded to a battalion (of grenadiers--I was right about that part!) under Fritz. So maybe "several regiments" only accepting six foot men was an exaggeration, but there being six-foot requirements for some bodies is possible? Will let you know if I find out more. (Though I'm not going full-out detective on this, as I'm prioritizing other things.)

Wikipedia: Yeah, your buddy Ferdinand of Brunswick defeated a French army there.
Me: He's not my buddy, I just thought it was funny that mildred thought of him before Ferdinand... never mind. Fine.

LOOK, if we're talking not purely about regents but about Heinrich replacements to get Prussia through the Seven Years' War, there's the guy who at least one scholar (remind me which one, Selena?) has claimed was a better general than Fritz or Heinrich, and then there's the guy who was "incapacitated by illness" the entire time, then proceeded to live another 55 years. :PPP

You had your reasons for not thinking I wrote a crack corporate AU, and I had my reasons for not thinking of Ferdinand as a viable alternative to Heinrich during the Seven Years' War, okay. :P

Edited 2021-01-09 20:25 (UTC)

Ferdinand of Brunswick as the superior general historian: I think it was Jürgen Luh. BTW, Boswell meets him when visiting Braunschweig (which he did before visiting Berlin and Potsdam) and was suitably awed, since among Brits FoB's reputation directly after the war was very high, not least since he'd taken over from Butcher Cumberland and had made a far better job of it, specifically in the battle of Minden.

Te Deum: I seem to recall Fritz mentions this in a couple of his letters as well. He notably ordered one after Mollwitz, complete with letting the field preacher afterwards preach on the subject of St. Paul's "Let women be silent". And of course during the 7 Years War he'd used the "defender of free Protestants everywhere" propaganda to the hilt, which came with attending services and Te Deums after battles.

LOL on the Journal de Trevaux. re: footnotes - pretending to be just the editor for an unknown author was a literary device very popular in the 18th century, though usually in epistolary novels. Goethe did it in "Werther", for example, and Chloderos de Laclos in Les Liasons Dangereuses. It wasn't meant seriously. (EXcept in cases as when Voltaire used it when publishing pamphlets which could get him arrrested.) (And by MacPherson, the guy who wrote the Ossian poems.) Umberto Eco pays homage to the custom in The Name of the Rose which has an opening narration of him finding Adson von Melk's original manuscript.

From Mildred's reply to the other post:

When Joseph II, while madly touring Europe, came to visit, Horowski reports this amazing anecdote (courtesy I *think* of British envoy William Hamilton, though I would need to check and I don't have time):

It is indeed Sir William Hamilton, eventual husband of Emma (who will become bff with Maria Carolina, remember), and son of probably Fritz of Wales' mistress (whom Lord Hervey sniffily accused of not even being that pretty). And that is indeed a hilarious tale. Given this was to my knowledge the same journey on which Joseph had already visited Paris, I wouldn't be surprised if he had a private list of "Who's my most idiotic brother-in-law?" in his head.

Louis - hasn't figured out penetrative sex after seven years of trying, despite being in love with his wife; otoh, can actually carry a conversation about other subjects, and his good hobby locksmitih

Ferdinand - not in love with his wife, but walking, talking embarrassment to everyone; groper of butts

Albert - husband of Maria Christina, aka Mom's ~~and my late wife's~~ favourite; not stupid, but big spender, keeps complaining about me using Dad's money for the state instead of letting him and Maria Christina have a big budget

Edited 2021-01-13 17:31 (UTC)

Ha! Since this was the trip on which he first met Fritz, I can see why his reaction was, "Oh thank god for someone I can have a conversation with!"

MT: For sixteen hours a day?
ViennaJoe: FOR SIXTEEN HOURS A DAY. :D :D :D

I HAVE FINALLY WATCHED IT. Thank you so much

prinzsorgenfrei for this musical!! Honestly, basically all you have to do is make a musical about, well, anything, and I will have ALL THE FEELINGS about it and I'm so happy to have gotten the chance to watch and understand it thanks to your subtitles! :D Those were a labor of love indeed <3 (And sorry it took me so long to watch -- I've had issues watching anything for the past year (idk why, my bizarre response to 2020 apparently??), and have just gotten to the point where I can do so again.)

So I wrote most of this and then went back and found the discussion with

selenak's review (and have added in some replies to that conversation), and was rather charmed to see how much we agreed :) ) (Rheinsberg review is here and here is the original thread; selenak does a much better job of actually summarizing than I do, and this is more of a companion to her review :)

It was interesting coming to this as someone who now knows a little, versus if I'd watched it a year ago, and I was impressed by how historical it actually was! Maybe I just have super low expectations due to the way US entertainment generally treats historical subjects (Hamilton was a notable exception in mostly trying to follow the history and for the most part not over-romanticizing it) but... I loved that we got August the Strong and Grumpkow and Seckendorff and even a mention of Maupertuis :D and that it didn't shy away from what Old Fritz became, and how that contrasted with Young Fritz. (Which really might be American Broadway low expectations on my part? Like, if, oh, say, Frank Wildhorn or Andrew Lloyd Weber (who admittedly isn't American, but same deal) got hold of Fritz' story, I suspect there would be... a lot less of Old Fritz in it.)

I also thought it got a lot of the feel right; the one thing I kind of thought was weird -- besides the big het elephant in the room, getting to that -- was how Wilhelmine was played as basically relentlessly cheery, which was definitely not the impression I'd gotten of her from the memoirs. I mean, there's some libretto textual evidence that she's putting on the best face possible, and also her function in the musical as foil and central relationship with Fritz means it might work better for her to be cheerful -- but it was still a little ?? to me.

I'd purposely tried not to spoil myself by e.g. reading

selenak's review beforehand (although I did see enough that Grumpkow/SD was spoiled for me, whoops -- but perhaps for the best, lol), but I'd seen a couple of the clips on youtube that selenak had shown us before. And yet, even having seen the clips I was unprepared for the overwhelming het weirdness of Katte/Wilhelmine and the near-absence of Fritz/Katte or even Fritz & Katte. Like... Katte meets both of them, he's immediately assumed by all three of them to have paired off with Wilhelmine, and then that's... kind of it... until later on Fritz is like "you're my best friend I want to escape with you!!" and I was like "...he is? What happened? Was there a whole scene I missed?" (There was not a whole scene I missed.)

Fritz is definitely played as more into Katte than strictly platonic friendship, but there was absolutely no chemistry or attempted chemistry between them, either romantic or platonic, and not even any really good friendship moments. Some of this was Katte's actor, who seemed almost to be shying away from Young Fritz sometimes, but a lot of it was just the lack of any text. (Contrast Rodrigo and Carlo in Verdi; you could even cut the friendship duet bits of Dio che nell'alma infondere, and act it totally non-slashily, and Act II would still give you no doubt of the friendship between these two.) Which makes it not very resonant at all when Katte is executed, much less as the ghost who is talking to Old Fritz. Knowing the ~~ship~~ history (and thinking of it a bit as a dramatization of mildred's Pulvis et Umbra) I still enjoyed it, I guess. And yet the part of me that was watching it as a self-contained musical was like "...why is Katte here?" and I imagine if you didn't really know the history very well it would not make much sense at all!

(I must admit laughing a bit when they do the letter-play where Katte drops a letter which Grumbkow picks up and gives to FW, and FW is all "Katte has betrayed me!!" Schiller strikes again, I'm betting! :) Or perhaps it's convergent evolution -- after all, it's rather easier, and therefore dramatically sensible, to think of FW feeling personally betrayed by Katte, and letters are a canon-relevant way of getting that information across... but...)

Random bit that totally made me laugh (given how much knowledge about Fritz there was on display, I feel that someone here was having fun):

Old Fritz: I got Voltaire to come see me! He read my poems! [Direct quote from prinzsorgenfrei's subtitles:] And that he came all the way to Potsdam shows how much he liked them!
Me: Oh Fritz. Oh Fritz.

I thought Fritz & Wilhelmine was quite well done, and though someone not in fandom wouldn't necessarily come out of the play shipping it (though there was definitely subtext there, which I thought was hilarious), I totally bought their close relationship in a way I didn't buy Fritz & Katte at all. The Wilhelmine scene where she argued with him about wanting Bayreuth to remain neutral was amazing. (And I thought that was a brilliant elision of history; lunch with MT, much as I adore that bit of history, wouldn't have worked nearly as well in a two-hour musical.) And now,

selenak, I understand what you meant about the curtsey at the end -- her relating to him as the King she has just submitted to, not her beloved brother, ouuuuch.

And at the very end of the musical, I kinda loved that Katte slipped away during the final trio, leaving Young Fritz and Wilhelmine alone together. Though speaking of incestuous subtext: not only does Katte disappear, no longer coming between the two of them if you know what I mean, but she is wearing a white dress in the finale which I realize is supposed to symbolize that she is dead, but for this American audience member it also LOOKS LIKE A WEDDING DRESS and they're standing up on a platform like two figures on a wedding cake! I'm just saying.

The music was for the most part...

selenak called it "workman level" in her review, and that's a good way of describing it; it did the job of making me invested (seriously, make anything into a musical and I will suddenly be emotionally involved in a way I wasn't before) but it wasn't at all memorable. The chorus numbers were for the most part particularly mediocre; often I really like the chorus numbers in musicals, but there was nothing in these that I found melodically or harmonically particularly catchy. The only song I could even take a stab at recalling the melody afterwards is "Sieben Jahr Krieg," which has that as its hypnotic refrain, and especially at the beginning of the song is rather devastatingly staged, with Old Fritz frowning stock-still at his desk in the middle while the chorus-stylized war is swirling around him. (Later in the song they start dancing around, which I think was supposed to evoke the frenzy of war but which I feel didn't work so well.) And I've forgotten that one too, a day later. Oh, and I did very much like the FW and Fritz duet ("Die Schande Preußens") about how Fritz is a disgrace to Prussia because he doesn't like war, etc. -- the neat thing was how FW and Fritz traded their melodic line back and forth, prefiguring the way Fritz takes on FW-like qualities later on. (Though I feel they lost a great opportunity for a callback when Fritz sings about how he's totally going to invade Silesia -- or maybe they didn't; although it's not the same melody as Die Schande Preußens, it's got enough harmonic commonality that on first watch-through I wondered if it was the same tune, which maybe was intentional and if so good job.)

Old Fritz (Chris Murray) is in my opinion by far the strongest singer in the cast; he's really good, with a resonant voice. So good that when it goes from his powerful solo (Ebenbild) to the finale where Young Fritz, Wilhelmine, and Katte have a trio, I had a moment of disorientation of "...why did the singing just get substantially more mediocre? Oh, because Old Fritz isn't singing anymore," which is probably not what you want your audience to be thinking at the grand finale. (I've now gone back and looked at the previous comments and saw

prinzsorgenfrei said Bieri (Young Fritz) wasn't having a good day, which yeah, I'd totally buy. But even if he were having a good day, Murray's voice is substantially darker and richer than the others' (in part I imagine just because he's older and his voice has settled), and I don't think that was considered in the transition to the trio.)

Of course, this was the other thing I was thinking near the end:

Everyone in the musical: Old Fritz, you're such a terrible person that you're all alone!
Me: What about Fredersdorf?? ...oh, well, I guess he's dead at that point. What about Heinrich?
Heinrich: Leave me out of this!

Edited 2021-01-14 05:39 (UTC)

I see we're of a mind when it comes to this musical. <3

Like, if, oh, say, Frank Wildhorn or Andrew Lloyd Weber (who admittedly isn't American, but same deal) got hold of Fritz' story, I suspect there would be... a lot less of Old Fritz in it.)

I'd say none. Hence my assumption that "Fritz, the Disney version", would blame all the worst stuff on Grumbkow & Seckendorff as the minions of the Evil Austrian Emperor, and would end with now crowned Fritz righteously invading the Evil Austrian Empire and triumphing.

Wilhelmine played as relentlessly cheery: I hear you. Mind you, back in the day when the early Salon had reawakened my interest and I checked out A03 for Fritz fic, what little Wilhelmne there was in those stories (before Mildred started to write her into her stories for me, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!) was also relentlessly cheerful and uplifting and comforting. I remember complaining about this. Now the reason for this is obvious - the writers want a character to comfort Fritz and cheer him up, and the way Wilhelmine herself was also emotionally damaged and neurotic is evident only if you bother to read more of the source material than posted on Tumblr -, but I would like to point out that the 1980s tv two parter "Der Thronfolger" also has Wilhelmine doing the comforting of Fritz, but it doesn't have her relentlessly cheery. (It even includes a bit to indicate her relationship with her mother when SD critiques her posture and asks for "contenance" in her behavior). So even if you need Wilhelmine primarly as a supporting (in both senses of the word) character, you can show she's not a bundle of joy all the time.

To return to the musical, at first I assumed it might also be that the actress/singer was one note and couldn't do more, but her big argument scene with Fritz in act 2 blew that assumption out of the water because she is great there (and here the script allows for a whole scala of emotions).

Fritz is definitely played as more into Katte than strictly platonic friendship, but there was absolutely no chemistry or attempted chemistry between them, either romantic or platonic, and not even any really good friendship moments.

So much agreed, and never mind history, that's truly to the detriment of the story the musical itself is trying to tell. If Katte and Fritz aren't believable good friends (even without the slightest bit of subtext), then Katte's actions make no sense, and Fritz still being haunted by him years later in both senses of the word does not resonate in the way it needs to. Your comparison/contrast to Carlos and Rodrigo, even if you'd cut the friendship duet, is astute.

The Wilhelmine scene where she argued with him about wanting Bayreuth to remain neutral was amazing.

Wasn't it just? This was perhaps the greatest surprise to me when I watched the musical, because the bits that are on YouTube don't include it and give no indication of it, and it is so very good. (It also means vindicates the actress playing Wilhelmine as in, clearly the relentless cheeriness earlier was how she was directed to play it, she can and does offer more.) Of course, it also helps that Chris Murray is now playing Fritz and he, as we agree, is the superior singer (and actor). But seriously, much as the rest of the script is workmanlike as is the music, here it deserves credit for having found a way to fuse various complicated historical developments into a stage-friendly shorthand for a two hour musical which nonetheless is layered and really, really effective.

And now, selenak, I understand what you meant about the curtsey at the end -- her relating to him as the King she has just submitted to, not her beloved brother, ouuuuch.

Indeed. You can imagine how when reading "Grind" for the first time and arrived at Amalie deeply curtseying in front of Heinrich, I thought "ohhhhh, did someone watch the musical after all?"

the neat thing was how FW and Fritz traded their melodic line back and forth, prefiguring the way Fritz takes on FW-like qualities later on.

See, that's the kind of astute musical diagnosis none of us other salon members could provide.

Everyone in the musical: Old Fritz, you're such a terrible person that you're all alone!
Me: What about Fredersdorf?? ...oh, well, I guess he's dead at that point. What about Heinrich?
Heinrich: Leave me out of this!

LOL. I bet. (Now someone just needs to compose the music to my script of Lehndorff!The Musical.)

Indeed. You can imagine how when reading "Grind" for the first time and arrived at Amalie deeply curtseying in front of Heinrich, I thought "ohhhhh, did someone watch the musical after all?"

Lol! No, physical gestures of loyalty just happen to be one of

cahn's favorite tropes (mine too, although I think we deploy them differently), she suggested/requested it, and I put it in for her!

what little Wilhelmne there was in those stories (before Mildred started to write her into her stories for me, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!) was also relentlessly cheerful and uplifting and comforting. I remember complaining about this.

That's why I started writing her into stories for you! Thank you in return for writing erastes!Suhm and Peter Keith (someday) into stories for me. :)

(mine too, although I think we deploy them differently)

...okay, I think I agree with this but I can't articulate it, but I would like you to! Someday, I know now is perhaps not the time :P

And thank you again for putting in the deep curtsey for me :D <3

Edited 2021-01-15 05:50 (UTC)

Well, I didn't get enough sleep for German, so here I am in salon.

I've been trying to articulate this for a while now, since realizing you shared my trope but every time you wanted to put it in one of our fics, I had a "Yes, but not there!" gut level reaction.

Every time I try to articulate "I prefer X to Y," I end up with some reason that's not true. Basically, as you know, I haven't been able to figure out why certain characters and pairings do or don't give me the feels in this fandom. (Aside from Fritz, who is 100% my usual type in every single fandom ever.)

If we look at the specific occasions you've put it in in our fics: Amalie to Heinrich doesn't fit my deployment of this trope because I think I prefer it when the character performing the gesture has complete and undivided loyalty and love for the recipient. I don't use it for love/hate. This is also why it doesn't work for me when Heinrich does it to Fritz. For Fredersdorf and Fritz, I *would* use this trope, but much later in their relationship when they know each other better and have become life partners.

Thinking about it, I *think* I tend to use it as a means of hurt/comfort from the character performing the gesture to the recipient. Which is why it almost works for me from Fredersdorf to Fritz, it's just too soon.

Now, I have no objection to it being deployed in the places you and Selena put or requested it! It just doesn't push my personal id buttons.

And thank you again for putting in the deep curtsey for me :D <3

My pleasure! As noted, I don't mind at all.

I think I prefer it when the character performing the gesture has complete and undivided loyalty and love for the recipient.

Fair enough! Yes, that's really different. I actually think I'd probably be less likely to prefer it in that case, because as I said, I prefer loyalty gestures to say something in addition to the loyalty -- either commenting on a complex loyalty situation, like Amalie->Heinrich or Heinrich->Fritz, or a potentially complex situation resulting in a decision to pledge loyalty (young!Fredersdorf->Fritz). (Though that one is also the weakest id-wise for me as well; though still iddy for me, it also functioned as the most over-the-top way Fredersdorf could communicate what he wanted to Fritz.)

Is there a fic (either written by you or someone else) where this is done in a way that pushes your buttons? I mean, not for any reason. :P (And certainly not for any reason right now!)

Lol, because of reasons! :D

Okay, so the only posted fic I can think of where I did this was in Hunger Games fandom. I will spare you reading the 120,000 words (it's in the penultimate scene, of course), but here's the line in question:

Mags sits on the couch and Finnick kneels at her feet, because it's the only way his body can communicate the intensity of I will do anything for you.

The context is that she's just had her stroke and can't talk any more, and he's all HOW CAN I HELP. The two of them have a Fritz/Wilhelmine type relationship in my fic: codependent, nonsexual, but borderline emotionally incestuous. (I guess not literally incest, since they're not genetically related, but ykwim.) At the very end of the series, Finnick will retrospectively question whether this was healthy, but at this point--end of the first installment--he's all in.

Speaking of whom, I still don't know why I can't seem to warm up to Wilhelmine in this fandom. I should be right there for the intense, supportive, codependent, abuse-surviving sibling relationship! I have at least two other sibling pairs in my head that are exactly this (one is an OC that exists only in my head, the other is Boromir and Faramir). I've written two fics featuring her and read her memoirs and her bio and I *still* can't summon up any feels for her. I'm very confused. I'm trying, guys! Maybe when I get to French and read her letters it will help.

(Ditto Fritz/Fredersdorf: given my Childermass and Childermass/Norrell feels, I should be *all over* this ship. Furthermore, I recognize that as important, supportive relationships go, it's far superior objectively to all of Fritz's other relationships. But only thanks to you guys writing me fic have I advanced beyond "meh" to "Okay, yes, I want to see more of this.")

MY BRAIN I do not understand it.

I think I prefer it when the character performing the gesture has complete and undivided loyalty and love for the recipient.

Fair enough! Yes, that's really different.

Yeah, that's why I never put this gesture in the right places for you unless you tel me to. :)

Edited 2021-01-16 17:03 (UTC)

There, there. Different strokes for different people. This is me with Katte. I'm anything but immune to starcrossed lovers and noble friends sacrificing themselves for their beloved. And I've now read so much more than two years ago, including the interrogation protocols, when I kept thinking "you poor boy". I've written my very own "Katte lives!" AU. (Which, okay, is Wilhelmine-centric, but he plays an important part.) And yet...

BTW, one of the hopes I had when reading the "Zeithain" novel, which after all had been advertised as the first Katte-centric take (which it is), was to get a hand on who he was outside of his death context. In the hopes that I'd come to feel more for him beyond being sorry (and eternally angry on his behalf at FW). But alas Michael Roes distracted me too much with his Daddy issues for that, i.e. his decision to triple the number of Evil Dads by adding Hans Heinrich and the father of his OC Philip Stanhope to it.

Since you bring up "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell" - since that nearly overlaps with our era, time wise, I must say that I now want the AU where, disregarding the exact date when magic returns to England and pushing it a bit more back, the 7 Years War is fought with added magic. Seydlitz is a magician, clearly. Andrew Mitchell is, too, but doesn't have much practical talent, just enough for it to come in useful now and then, but he keeps it secret because he likes being an envoy far better than if he'd have to use his little magical talent for the government. Fredersdorf was a magician (this is how he could do so many jobs at the same time). Fritz very much wanted to be a magician, but alas, he's not (though he knows how to use them). Voltaire and Émilie: both magicians.

I'm fine with having different strokes from you and

cahn, I just want my strokes to be consistent across fandoms, because they usually are! But Katte is my anti-ship in any other fandom (okay, the execution scene is unique and critical to the difference), and definitely Peter Keith should be a nonentity and an anti-ship for me, and yet.

BTW, one of the hopes I had when reading the "Zeithain" novel, which after all had been advertised as the first Katte-centric take (which it is), was to get a hand on who he was outside of his death context. In the hopes that I'd come to feel more for him beyond being sorry (and eternally angry on his behalf at FW).

Yeah, based on your review and what I've read (it's still on my list for when my German is slightly better!), it does seem disappointing in this regard. Alas. Thank you for your extensive research on my behalf in spite of not having deep feels! <3

Fredersdorf was a magician (this is how he could do so many jobs at the same time).

And the alchemy!

Fritz very much wanted to be a magician, but alas, he's not (though he knows how to use them).

Awww. Does he at least have a fairy servant? Magician or no, I feel like he would acquire one somehow.

Voltaire and Émilie: both magicians.

YES. YES, this.

Does he at least have a fairy servant? Magician or no, I feel like he would acquire one somehow.

Oh God. This totally explains his readers. Why one of them hightails it out of Prussia (Darget), one sells him out to France (de Prades), and one fictionalizes him in order to cope with him. Clearly, what Henri de Catt was trying to do was a complicated reality warping spell to make Fritz more bearabe (to him) by literally rewriting him. It just didn't work because of leftover Fredersdorf protection spells woven around Fritz.

...this... is the only version of Catt I've seen in this fandom that pleases me :P :D

It just didn't work because of leftover Fredersdorf protection spells woven around Fritz.

And this is the perfect explanation :D

This is why I'm so mad at the musical for what they did with Katte, because I know if they'd even met me halfway (like, even if it wasn't shippy, just a romantic friendship) I'd have fallen hard for Katte/Fritz in a way I haven't yet quite been able to do yet (the closest I've gotten is reading "Pulvis et Umbra").

...really what I ought to do is write Katte/Fritz, I suppose. It worked for Fredersdorf! :D

omg, Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell fusion is spectacular, I love it :D Of course Fredersdorf is a magician! And Voltaire and Émilie :D

OOOH. I didn't know that you wanted to ship Fritz/Katte, nor that "Pulvis et Umbra" was the closest you came. Hmmmm!

What I'm hearing is that I should start a Fritz/Katte fic, and rope you into finishing it with me. :P

More seriously, the plan is to get my German up to speed, then read a bunch of Katte-related material, then see if I get inspired for a fic. So maybe this summer?

I've been quietly marveling that I've posted *so* *little* Fritz/Katte (and no living Katte!), but then I realize..."Pulvis et Umbra" was posted one month before my sleep went to pieces in 2019. Since then, I've only written (or at least posted) for exchanges, and nobody's requested Katte. But if I can hang onto my current momentum, hopefully I can start writing for myself at some point, and make use of my ability to read German. :D

I have pipe dreams of learning French, doing fic research in French, and then writing fic based on that research, because the fix-it fic is set in France, but...this all presupposes I maintain my momentum for that long. But we should be good for German, at least.

(Sometimes I honestly don't know whether I study history in order to write fic, or write fic in order to learn history. Now I've added language studies into the mix. Am I learning German so I can learn history? Am I learning German so I can research fic? Am I researching fic so I can acquire some knowledge of German? Am I studying history so I can acquire some knowledge of German? A little of all of the above, I think.)

I mean... I kind of feel like I should ship Fritz/Katte? Since it's, like, the fandom juggernaut and all :P Don't feel compelled to make me collaborate on a Fritz/Katte fic :PP

I'm actually really surprised no one else has requested Fritz/Katte, given that all the previous fic written about Fritz in exchanges (as far as I know) was Fritz/Katte!

Well, the only one other than us who requested anything in this fandom in both Yuletides was Nabielka, and none of her prompts and requests included Katte. It seems the Fritz/Katte fans from previous Yuletides were either already sated by the stories three Yuletides ago or wandered off to other fandoms?

Oh, I feel compelled, all right. :DD

Wait until after I've read all the Katte material we've accumulated!

Ha, yeah, I guess I'm atypical in this fandom for Wilhelmine's memoirs being one of the first texts I tackled (even before any secondary texts). (Meanwhile... I'm going to finish Voltaire's biography before I finish Fritz's, unless mildred tells me she wants to stop so we can do it together or something. Though I imagine Voltaire would think this perfectly right and proper :P :) ) And yes, the actress is really great in that argument scene with Fritz! She could totally have handled it :)

If Katte and Fritz aren't believable good friends (even without the slightest bit of subtext), then Katte's actions make no sense, and Fritz still being haunted by him years later in both senses of the word does not resonate in the way it needs to.

Yes this!!

Of course, it also helps that Chris Murray is now playing Fritz and he, as we agree, is the superior singer (and actor). But seriously, much as the rest of the script is workmanlike as is the music, here it deserves credit for having found a way to fuse various complicated historical developments into a stage-friendly shorthand for a two hour musical which nonetheless is layered and really, really effective.

YES. Like you, (a) I wondered whether acting against Murray helped her acting skills as well -- he was scary! -- though (b) I also thought they were both helped by the script here, which yes, I thought did a great job of this scene.

Indeed. You can imagine how when reading "Grind" for the first time and arrived at Amalie deeply curtseying in front of Heinrich, I thought "ohhhhh, did someone watch the musical after all?"

Haha, no, as mildred says, I just wanted it :) Physical gestures of loyalty: my jam. Physical gestures of complex loyalty relationships where the gesture itself gets across something about the complex nature of the loyalty and the relationship? I will go ANYWHERE for that, even to the extent of pestering the person for whom I'm betaing to put it in :D

(What I was actually thinking of is one of the last scenes in The Perilous Gard by Elizabeth Pope (which won the Newbery Honor) -- I don't know if you've read it, but it's a YA-ish about a young lady-in-waiting to Princess Elizabeth (later Elizabeth I) who gets exiled to a rural manor and has adventures there with a version of the Fairy Folk that I loved so much that it's forever ruined me for most other depictions of it -- I love the book very much, though it's out of print at present.)

Edited 2021-01-15 05:48 (UTC)

unless mildred tells me she wants to stop so we can do it together or something.

Nope, go for it! Turns out I no longer need reading group for German, nor do I even need quota and yelling! German has just gotten easy enough that I no longer have to fight to find the willpower to do it every day. Will let you know if something comes up such that I need to be yelled at again, but you reading things on your own is fine. I'll get to Orieux eventually, but not this month.

even to the extent of pestering the person for whom I'm betaing to put it in :D

:D

Yay, you saw it :DD I gotta give Kudos to bored 16-year-old me for spending ages trying to put the subtitles in the right spots and also for keeping the windows movie maker file, that made refining the translation way easier :'D

there was absolutely no chemistry or attempted chemistry between them, either romantic or platonic, and not even any really good friendship moments.

Yes!!! That's such a shame, like, at least let them be friends?? The only way we know they're friends is because Ghost-Katte tells us. "This was the day we met as well", it was indeed, Hans Hermann, the day you didn't look at him ONCE and were instead laser-focussed on his sister :'D (Give them a damn duet, maybe cut "Spiel mich", idk...)
Even Burte manages to make them seem closer and Fritz is hardly in that travesty of a play :'D

I imagine if you didn't really know the history very well it would not make much sense at all!

My friend got me the DVD back in 2016 and I remember watching it, being very confused, and thinking that maybe I got something wrong when reading basic stuff about the historical background (Because when did people ever lie in a stage play? :'D). I was rather distraught and thought that maybe my grandma had lied to me when she said "Yeah, so, that's Friedrich and that's his boyfriend". Not sure why I was ready to trust this thing over my history teacher grandma, but... I mean, at least my confusion got me to read Wilhelmine's memoir :'D

although it's not the same melody as Die Schande Preußens, it's got enough harmonic commonality that on first watch-through I wondered if it was the same tune, which maybe was intentional and if so good job.

The callback they made in that scene was one to "Das preußische Prinzip", FW's solo from the very beginnning, so the general vibe of FW was definitely there :D They just sped it up a little I believe... Maybe they wanted to put the focus on FW's parenting "working out" in the end and less on "he likes war now"? Idk.

Heinrich: Leave me out of this!

Honestly, the things I'd give to see Heinrich in a musical... Maybe he can inherit one of the overly high and rather inaccurate women's wigs :'D Maybe a tapdance number...

Ohhhh THAT was why that theme sounded so familiar! (And the reason why I couldn't place it was because I had totally forgotten FW had a solo! It took me a fair amount of bouncing around before I located it even after you told me about it, lol, I'd forgotten because it was so early.) Okay that's AWESOME and I am really happy that they did that and that you told me about it :D (It is pretty similar as far as I can tell (I didn't spend a long time on it), only Fritz's is a minor third up -- which makes that sit a lot higher in the voice, pretty high for a tenor! Kudos to him for fielding that well -- rather better than FW's actor in a less challenging key, in fact, which I suppose isn't symbolic of anything but I'm going to let that sit there anyway.)

Also, gotta amend the "no catchy tunes" thing -- now that I went back and listened again to the FW/Fritz tune it actually has gotten stuck in my head a bit, so I have to give them props for that too :)

(Because when did people ever lie in a stage play? :'D)

Heeee! (Also this probably dates me, but it reminds me of this Simpson's moment!) But yeah, the thing that's so weird is that I could forgive it not making sense historically (after all it's a musical), but it doesn't even make sense within the context of the musical itself!

Honestly, the things I'd give to see Heinrich in a musical... Maybe he can inherit one of the overly high and rather inaccurate women's wigs :'D Maybe a tapdance number...

I AM THERE FOR THIS :D And of course as selenak said there's her Lehndorff musical :D

But really I am gunning for him having his very own musical! (Maybe with Christian Borle playing Heinrich, now that he's made a bit of a career of playing not-conventionally-handsome leading men :D )

Question: I was vaguely thinking about writing a musical post in DW for people not in this fandom and linking to your file -- would that be OK?

Whoops, I did not see this one... Sure, you can do that ^^

Excellent! There are a few things in the queue, but hopefully one of these days :D

I must admit laughing a bit when they do the letter-play where Katte drops a letter which Grumbkow picks up and gives to FW, and FW is all "Katte has betrayed me!!" Schiller strikes again, I'm betting! :)

No doubt! But it also follows canon rather closely: don't forget the letter that Fritz writes to Katte during the escape attempt, but forgets to address it to the Katte in Berlin, so it ends up with a different Katte, a cousin in a different part of Germany, who reads it, realizes what's going on, and warns his brother-in-law Rochow, who is Fritz's governor and is on the trip to keep an eye on Fritz. Rochow warns FW, and the misdirected letter ends up in FW's hands a couple days after the escape attempt, either directly from cousin Katte or via Rochow, I forget. Naturally the musical would substitute Grumbkow, because who aside from us in salon would know who Rochow is? ;)

As for betrayal, part of the rationale for the execution was that Katte was part of the Gens d'armes, i.e. FW's personal bodyguard regiment, so it was a betrayal on that level, even if they didn't have that kind of Philip/Rodrigo relationship.

I'm glad you got to see the musical! But this is all I have time to say for now. :)

forgets to address it to the Katte in Berlin, so it ends up with a different Katte, a cousin in a different part of Germany, who reads it, realizes what's going on, and warns his brother-in-law Rochow

I am so sorry for randomly jumping in like this, but the letters cousin Katte (Rittmeister Hans Friedrich von Katte) wrote were printed in Kloosterhuis (and Hinrichs) and they are quite interesting! :D

He wrote to Daniel von Rochow first and told him to keep an eye on Fritz no matter what, then he wrote to Friedrich Wilhelm von Rochow to tell him the details of what he knew and that Lieutenant Katte of the Gens d'armes must have lost his mind completely and will end them all :'D

According to Hans Friedrich, Hans Hermann actually told Fritz to send letters through him and Fritz met up with HF at some point (and asked "Huh? Why is my Katte not with you?"). HF states further, that, when he told Fritz that Berlin-Katte had difficulties getting out of the city, Fritz reacted with "Damn. Okay, so, do you want to come with me then?", to which HF answered that he does not and that Fritz should really not run away in the first place. Fritz then proceeded to spam him with letters, but HF said that he had a fever and couldn't come. The letter to Daniel also said "please don't tell the Crown Prince that I told you, he would never forgive me".

HF's letter definitely sounds more like the whole thing was another idea that backfired on Fritz rather than just an accidental mix up (since HF apparently only wrote to the Rochows after a few letters from Berlin-Katte had already passed through his hands and Fritz had told him about the whole plan). Although I assume the first letter (i.e. the one saying "come meet me" before reacting to HF with "hey, you're not my Katte") could have been the wrongly addressed one?

You know, now that you mention this, this is ringing a faint bell. Perhaps Selena told us about it when she summarized Kloosterhuis for us. Clearly this is another one of those examples where two conflicting pieces of information co-exist quite happily in my brain, until one day they meet like matter and antimatter and implode!

Thank you very much for this write-up! I will continue assiduously working on my German so I can read Kloosterhuis myself. (Nearly 25 pages of Horowski yesterday just after dinner, which is very encouraging.)

Also, can I just repeat for the umpteenth time that it breaks my heart to see Fritz trying and trying to get someone on board with the idea of him getting to safety? He takes (and took) a lot of heat for not being able to do the obvious thing called keeping a conspiracy secret, and instead trumpeting his plans to the world (of course he got caught), but aside from his natural "fight, not flight" instinct, this was clearly an oft repeated and oft ignored cry for help.

I'm not *blaming* (most of) the people who didn't want to get involved and saw coming a mile away that this was a really dangerous idea, but I totally see how Fritz ended up with trust issues. </3

I'm just reading all this with great pleasure and have nothing much to say about it, but I just wanted to say you should never feel sorry about randomly jumping in! We have been trying to get people to randomly jump in! Please randomly jump in all you like! :D

Yes, this! I meant to say this too but ran out of time by the time I realized I hadn't! That's what salon is FOR!

So I was reading Fritz' correspondence with both Paul-Henri Tilio de Camas and his wife, Countess de Camas. (And by the way, I was surprised to learn that Camas, born 1688, lost his left arm with 18 and instead of leaving the army, he got a prosthesis and kept rising through the ranks, got his own regiment in 1740, and then died 1741 in Breslau. (Damn.) Also new to me: his wife - born Sophie Caroline von Brandt - only got the title Countess de Camas after his death. She also gets called "maman" by Fritz a lot, and lived until 1766.)

Anyway, I came across some cryptic allusions from Fritz, cross-referenced a couple of other sources myself (see below), but wanted to ask if anybody knows for sure what was going on there.

First, letter to Camas from Berlin, January 1st, 1736:
[...] If the first day of the year, according to popular tradition, is the foreshadowing of the rest of the year, I expect to make great progress in the school of adversity during this one. I started out with a sick body and a distressed mind. An inhuman colic has been following me very severely for some time; it undermines me, and if it continues to increase, I can easily predict where it will lead me. At the same time, I have a just cause of affliction, which is sensitive to me to the bottom of my heart; it does not come from there, but from another part; it devours me, and all the more because I hide my sorrow. You who know me, you will be able to judge if I am able to resist double attacks like this. However, I drag myself along as I can, and until I feel defeated. However, it seems to me that it relieves me to have told you about my troubles. I beg you to take part in them, and not to preach to me either a morality beyond my reach, or a heroism which renders me insensitive to the events of life. I have a tender and compassionate heart, and I feel the misfortunes that happen to my friends as strongly as if they happened to me. Finally I could tell you too much, and imperceptibly, without thinking about it, I could reveal to you what it is about, having once resolved to keep this matter a secret, not out of mistrust of your discretion, but because one judges differently the causes of the sorrows of others. One considers it ridiculous to grieve; the other says it's not worth the trouble; in the end, everyone knows for himself where the shoe pinches, and it is enough that he knows it, he must be silent.
Farewell, my dear Camas; my compliments to the wife. Love me always a little, I beg of you, and count on the perfect esteem that I have for you.
Frederic.

And a week later: [...] My colic is getting better; but as regards my sorrow, I do not feel any decrease. I speak to myself, I reason, I moralize; but I feel that temperament still has the upper hand over reason. In the end, dear Camas, that of adversity is a hard school; I was, so to speak, born and brought up in it; it takes away a lot from the world, it shows the vanity of the objects it presents to us, their lack of solidity, and the inconstancy that the revolution of time brings with it. For someone my age, these are unpleasant thoughts; the flesh is loath to them. My temperament, which naturally leads me to joy, is like a dislocated limb wishing in vain to perform its ordinary duties. I prefer to keep myself from writing to you until I have reestablished peace and calm in my agitated mind, so I can talk to you about less sad and less disagreeable matters.

The next letter to Camas is from March and doesn't have anything to say on the matter.

Second, he also wrote a - similarly cryptic - letter to Wilhelmine, which is lost, but we have her response from January 29th and she has a theory: Your letter has me seriously worried; I don't understand what the cause of your grief may be, and why you want to bury yourself on your property. I hardly dare to say what I suspect, but I'm afraid you are in debt and don't know how to pay it back. Please tell me openly whether I guessed right; because maybe I'll find ways and means to rid you of this worry.

Volz has a footnote saying that Fritz returned 5000 taler to her after he became king, but there's no way to tell when she lend him the money or if it's related to this. Given that he's building Rheinsberg around the time, and that he has the vague "morality beyond my reach" line in his letter to Camas, Wilhelmine's guess might be it? But on the other hand, some of what Fritz writes to Camas seems a bit too much for just money troubles and the "it does not come from there, but from another part" made me think of the STD thing again. And then there's the question where his "tender and compassionate heart" and the "misfortunes of my friends" come in.

Finally, thanks to

selenak's write-up, I found a couple of possibly relevant entries in the secret diary of the Seckendorff nephew, which present several possible causes, from general FW-related misery to very specific, procreation-related misery:

December 25th, 1735:
The prince royal, who dined with us, was very thoughtful, and the king still increased his reverie by forcing him to empty, following our example, a full great glass of Tokay.

I didn't realize FW kept doing that so late in the game.

January 17th, 1736 (using Selena's translation):
Biberius tells me about the secrets, that Junior confided in Pöllnitz. The King encourages him to produce children, had him made a marital bed out of velvet. Biberius does not believe, that Junior will survive the father, but that pessimus Wilhelmus will succeed one day.

Confiding in Pöllnitz, really, Fritz? You know better. But, more to the point, I wonder if this was the crux of the matter, i.e. FW having too much interest in Fritz' sex life or lack thereof, plus, apparently, still rumours of changing the succession if there's no child. I see from the rest of the write-up that the Manteuffel talk about producing an heir takes place later in the same year, too.

That's all I got, but maybe you guys know more? Other possible sources I thought of start later (Suhm) or aren't available (Keyserlingk).

/Speaking of, though, what is up with the Keyserlingk correspondence being just gone? I found a couple of early references to it, mostly saying that there was a very lively one between him and Fritz, but then it's quickly just "missing". I'm suspicious and annoyed because that one must have been a treasure trove.

One considers it ridiculous to grieve; the other says it's not worth the trouble; in the end, everyone knows for himself where the shoe pinches,

I don't have time to reply, but one quick note doing my duty as resident classicist: for those who don't recognize this, it's an allusion to Plutarch's Life of Aemilius Paulus.

A Roman once divorced his wife, and when his friends admonished him, saying: "Is she not discreet? is she not beautiful? is she not fruitful?" he held out his shoe (the Romans call it "calceus"), saying: "Is this not handsome? is it not new? but no one of you can tell me where it pinches my foot?"

Oh, nice! I wouldn't even have noticed, because the shoe phrase is such a common one. Great to know its origin now, and with the context, I of course can't help but make the connection to the "marital bed" part of the mystery speculation... No idea if the context would have been on Fritz' mind with that quote, though.

So, Fritz and his contemporaries being as conversant with Plutarch as they were (I think Fritz read him in translation regularly), I feel pretty confident in saying that's where he got the quote and that he knew the anecdote in question. Whereas if someone today were to use it, I wouldn't necessarily assume they knew the source.

But given how widely applicable the moral of the story is, I don't think Fritz would have limited himself to applying it to marital bed situations. It could just as easily be gambling debts. Though I admit I did think of EC and the imminent move to Rheinsberg when I saw he'd made the allusion to the shoe pinching story!

I did not know this, this is great! (Man, I have to read more classics. Maybe... later :) )

I still dream of us doing a Classics salon, but not...yet. ;)

I bet it was, and do instinctively suspect 19th century Hohenzollern censorship. I would say the survival of the Marwitz letters argues against that, but otoh technically these incriminate only Heinrich and Marwitz and Fritz' attitude could be written off as "he was just being sarcastic and trying to toughen Heinrich up". Whereas I bet this would not have been the case in letters between him and Caesarion.

But on the other hand, some of what Fritz writes to Camas seems a bit too much for just money troubles and the "it does not come from there, but from another part" made me think of the STD thing again. And then there's the question where his "tender and compassionate heart" and the "misfortunes of my friends" come in.

....I think Gröben is back as a suspect for spreading STD and getting into gambling debts as well, is what I think. (Not least because this reminds me a bit of the whole Reisewitz matter in the originally censored part of the Lehndorff diaries (i.e. those passages in volume 2 from 1752/1753 when Heinrich has just found out Reisewitz has been skeevy with his (Heinrich's money) and his emotional reaction as described by Lehndorff matches that of Fritz above; and he does cover Reisewitz' debts.) It would also explain why he was being cryptic with Wilhelmine as well, because I think if money had been the only problem, he'd have told her point blank.

I wonder if this was the crux of the matter, i.e. FW having too much interest in Fritz' sex life or lack thereof, plus, apparently, still rumours of changing the succession if there's no child. I see from the rest of the write-up that the Manteuffel talk about producing an heir takes place later in the same year, too.

Yes, and rumors about FW changing the succession in favor of AW would still go around as late as 1739 since they show up in Fritz' correspondence with Wilhelmine that year (where he tells her he's sure AW is on his side and is being honest, helping as much as he can and not scheming against him). Though again, if FW pushing him to produce an heir was the key cause of his January 1736 misery, I think he'd have been more explicit about it in his letters to Camas at least. Which I hadn't read yet, though the letters to Countess Camas were on my to do list for a while, so thank you for reading them!

I didn't realize FW kept doing that so late in the game.

(*looks at the date, December 25th* Talk about the ghost of Christmas Past!) FW: never skippping that power gesture if he can. After all, he did it to Fritz of Bayreuth as well, and he'd run out of successors to poor Grundling whom he could force to drink, plus I bet the goodwill Fritz earned by marrying in the first place was now being replaced by irritation of the lack of pregnancies, especially given FW, as ever, would apply his own experience to his children, which was that he and SD never had problems conceiving issue, even if the first few babies were either female or died. Wilhelmine also got pregnant almost immediately, and so did poor Friederike and Charlotte. I can see FW concluding that clearly, Fritz couldn't be trying very hard.

(Fritz of Wales, from overseas: At least he didn't accuse his son of being impotent and bent on substituting an anonymous baby as heir?)

I bet it was, and do instinctively suspect 19th century Hohenzollern censorship.

Yeah, my first thought, too. :( It's quite the blank space, because he was obviously very important in Fritz' life, and yet, I only have a very vague idea of him - basically just the couple of times he shows up in passing in the Voltaire correspondence, his eulogy by Maupertuis (mostly for some actual facts about his life), some vaguely reliable Bielfeld (I think?) anecdotes, and the letters Fritz wrote after his death which I've been collecting...

....I think Gröben is back as a suspect for spreading STD and getting into gambling debts as well, is what I think. (Not least because this reminds me a bit of the whole Reisewitz matter

Huh. Interesting, and not something I'd have thought of. Might not necessarily be Gröben, given that there were quite a few people in Fritz early Ruppin/Rheinsberg circle, but the general idea seems to make sense! I was kind of stuck on how much weight to place on the "friend" line vs. something that's more directly relevant to Fritz, but this would work.

Idle speculation of course, but apart from the possible money/gambling thing, if somebody he did have sex with came down with an STD, it would make sense that he'd be worried both for them and that he might have gotten it himself. Which of course would be the perfect time for an extended stay in Berlin, during which FW starts pressuring him about an heir, gifting him a special marital bed and all. :P

if FW pushing him to produce an heir was the key cause of his January 1736 misery, I think he'd have been more explicit about it in his letters to Camas at least

Okay, point. Especially since he openly mentions it to Manteuffel, too.

Which I hadn't read yet, though the letters to Countess Camas were on my to do list for a while, so thank you for reading them!

By the way, I've now finished all there is at Trier and definitely enjoyed reading, so let me know if I should post some excerpts. There aren't that many letters in either correspondence and they don't overlap, i.e. Fritz' letters to her start a couple of years after her husband's death (1734-1740 vs. 1744-1765). What they have in common is that Fritz seems to have had a lot of respect and affection for both of them and wrote pretty openly about his state of mind (when he wasn't being cryptic, see above, although that's also being open about his state of mind, just not the particulars).

With him, Fritz talks about army matters (recruits and 1734 and plans), gifts that are sent back and forth (Fritz: "quickly break the glasses I sent you so I can send you more!" ;)), and he gives reports on what he's doing (not much) and on his ever volatile relationship with FW, especially when he's in Berlin. Oh, and there's some gossiping about two women writing letters to Voltaire and Voltaire possibly answering. (Fritz needs to know everything of course.)

His correspondence with her is basically all during wartime (save for a few letters in 1764/65), short reports on the state of the war and of himself, grief after Keyserlingk's death (which is how I got there in the first place), sending gifts, a couple of problem-solving matters concerning his mother, a girl that got pregnant at court, and the queen. All very affectionate ("ma chère/bonne maman" is the usual adress from the first letter on), occasionally self-deprecating, and - unlike her husband - she doesn't even get a "write me more often" letter. (At least not one that's published at Trier. Preuss definitely left out some of hers, no idea if he also skipped some of Fritz's.)

Oh, and there's some gossiping about two women writing letters to Voltaire and Voltaire possibly answering. (Fritz needs to know everything of course.)

LOL. Of course!

Preuss definitely left out some of hers, no idea if he also skipped some of Fritz's.)

Well, the only editions where I can contrast and compare is Fritz/Wilhelmine with Preuss versus Volz versus "So lange wir zu zweit sind", and Preuss definitely left out some (especially of Wilhelmine) which Volz has, so it wouldn't be surprising if he did the same with the Camas letters. As for excerpts, please do. I'm currently way too busy to read and review.

OH, and btw,

cahn: Countess Camas is the old lady depicted in Menzel's Flute Concert at Sanssouci painting, and the one one delivering the punchline in Lehndorff's Wartensleben the sugar horder write-up. Lehndorff also mentions her greeted and hugged by Fritz upon his return post 7 Years War (as opposed to poor EC). Her being called "Maman" is telling in itself.

Preuss actually quotes a couple of lines from her unpublished letters in the footnotes to explain what Fritz is talking about, instead of just including the letters themselves. Sigh.

Lehndorff also mentions her greeted and hugged by Fritz upon his return post 7 Years War

Yeah, I definitely had to think of this Lehndorff entry when Fritz repeatedly told her in his letters that he would do that, so she could "prepare for it". :D

Speaking of Lehndorff, I checked what he had to say on the occasion of her death in 1766 and it's very complimentary:

Countess Camas, the Queen's Oberhofmeisterin, died at the age of 80. This venerable woman should have lived centuries. I have never known a woman of such perfection; a dignified, cheerful, kind, and magnificent character; everything about her was perfect and remained so despite her age. Until the last moments of her life, she retained her freshness of mind. I will mourn her all my life and forever miss what I lost in her. The queen's court ought to mourn her forever, for all its splendor has died out with her. The king loved and respected her. She was the only lady His Majesty distinguished and yet she never got above herself, on the contrary, she knew how to assess everything according to its correct value.

And then there was the whole EC hits Wartensleben with a fan incident, where his and Countess Camas' reaction was to find a quiet spot for themselves and talk about Candide.

Will be back with some letter excerpts!

Will be back with some letter excerpts!

Yay! It's awesome that we have different people in the salon reading and reporting on different selections of the correspondence, so that no one person has to read all those volumes. :)

Preuss actually quotes a couple of lines from her unpublished letters in the footnotes to explain what Fritz is talking about, instead of just including the letters themselves. Sigh.

Sigh indeed. Because of course Preuss thinks readers would only care about the Fritz part of the correspondence. :(

I definitely had to think of this Lehndorff entry when Fritz repeatedly told her in his letters that he would do that, so she could "prepare for it". :D

On the one hand, aw. On the other, if he could plan his gestures at the post war big welcoming reception in such detail, you'd think he'd been able to come up with a bland nice remark for EC as well since it was inevitable he'd see her there with all ears and eyes on them. I mean, I have a headcanon as to what went on inside him on that occasion, but that's mere speculation.

And yes, Lehndorff was definitely a fan, and I haven't found a biographer who had to say anything negative about her, either, both of the hero worshipping and the deconstructing type. Incidentally, does Fritz write "Maman" from the start, or does this come after SD's death? I've always wondered.

I'd be interested in that headcanon! And I'll include the whole quote in context later, but I just wanted to clarify that the "plan" is from early 1762 and more teasing and wanting to see her again, not related to any official end of war receptions at that point.

re: "maman" - he uses that from the start! There's even one where he's talking about both of them - maman vs. mère - which was a tad confusing for a moment. My subjective impression was that he got even more affectionate and clingy after SD's death, but there's of course no way to tell if that wasn't just due to his general state of mind during the war, particularly because there aren't any letters between 1745 and november 1760.

Headcanon: It has to do with PTSD, seven years of war, this being the first public occasion where he has to represent again not in front of the soldiers but in front of civilians and the alas tried and true kicking down mechanism of stress relief.

re: "maman" - he uses that from the start!

That is fascinating. Especially since SD was so much on the lookout for possible rivals in her son's affections otherwise - I mean, the entire early reaction to EC was based on that as much as snobbery (hence it settling down once Fritz had made it clear that SD would come first in Prussia nad with him). You'd think she'd resent Fritz calling someone else Mom?

You'd think she'd resent Fritz calling someone else Mom?

If this was more about status than emotional connection, she probably wouldn't have seen Countess Camas as a rival, unlike the actual (future) Queen? I don't know enough about SD to judge the difference.

My understanding is that it was normal for nobles/royals to call their governesses "Mama," *and*, as we know, it's normal for the Queen to outrank the Queen Mother, so I think it's entirely likely EC was a potential threat and Countess Camas wasn't.

Sigh indeed. Because of course Preuss thinks readers would only care about the Fritz part of the correspondence. :(

PREUSS!! I still haven't forgiven him for not including the letter from Suhm's brother to Fritz reporting Suhm's death in detail, but rather starting the published exchange with Fritz's response. I HOPE that letter is still out there in some archive.

This is like Richter going, "No one cares about Fredersdorf. These letters are just to highlight how great Fritz is!"

Grrr.

I'm going chronologically, therefore a look at the correspondence with the husband first. There are 43 letters at Trier (42 from Fritz, 1 from Camas), dated from June 1734 to March 1740.

The early ones are mostly short and deal with military recruitments (a topic that keeps coming back throughout the years), except for this postscript to the very first one: I will finally depart on Thursday and leave this unfortunate land [to join the military campaign against France]. It seems to me that since you are no longer here with Madame, we are missing someone in the house; and it occurred to me more than once to want to invite Madame de Camas. You see by this that you are not forgotten. Your health has been drunk to here, and I drank to it with all my heart.

Fritz reports from the 1734 campaign, casting himself as the eager student of military matters and humble manners - You see by that, my dear Camas, how much I pay attention to your lessons; after practicing them, they can make me deserve the praise you give me. - and in later years, there's some talk about siege and salary plans, plus reactions to promotions and reviews on both sides. In short, quite a bit of shop talk, which illustrates that Camas was an experienced military man. (According to wiki, he came from a Huguenot family and joined the Prussian army at age 13. As mentioned, he lost his arm at age 18 (during the War of the Spanish Succession), got a prosthesis and kept rising through the ranks until he died in 1741 (of fever). During this correspondence, he was stationed at Frankfurt (Oder).)

As of this Ruppin letter from December 1735, Fritz starts talking more about non-military things as well, and gets creative with his metaphors:
You know that my occupations are only fixed to three objects, namely, the service, reading, and music. This is what alternately keeps me throughout the day, except for two hours which must be given both to dinner and to digestion.
[...] It is a foreshadowing of death to me when a hussar comes to bring me the order to leave. Do not cry out, I beg you, at this comparison; I will demonstrate it to you just in every way. Death is, according to what theologians say, a separation of the soul from the body, and a general abandonment of all our honours, our goods, our fortune, and our friends. Freedom is my soul; I see myself more honored here than in other places; I have friends that I only see here. So the comparison is fair; and to push it even more, my return conforms to the dogma of the rehabilitation of all things, and between [my return] and my departure, I appear before the tribunal of a judge ready to condemn us and unwilling to absolve us.

Not the last time he'll compare FW to a (vengeful) God in these letters. Nonetheless, he has to leave for Berlin and that's where, only two weeks later, he writes about the mystery affliction, quoted and discussed above.

FW is a frequent topic in general, as Fritz very openly reports ups and downs (which I was roughly familiar with through the Wilhelmine correspondence), whereas friends and other family members get basically no mentions.

Forced hunting excursion in December 1736: The devil, who never sleeps, has put an end to the hunting of wild boars; he gave the master a cold, which confused all the designs of the planned murders. However, I had a commission to kill nearly two hundred of these miserable boars. I acquitted myself of it as a not very cruel person; taking pity on their sufferings, I shortened their martyrdom as much as I could. I confess to you that I do not feel any inclination for hunting; this passion is precisely the opposite of mine.

Interesting detail from December 1737 - Camas was a guest at Wusterhausen and Fritz thinks it would have been a bad idea to write to him there: It is a mark of caution in a young man not to blindly follow his inclinations, and to know how to restrain his inclinations when he foresees that the consequences they draw after them might be detrimental to someone. It was by such prudence that I refrained from writing to you during your stay at Wusterhausen. I feared that our correspondence might have augured badly; moreover, it seemed to me that you would be sufficiently occupied over there with the attentions you owe the King, with the hunts, with the tobacco parliaments, with the dissipations from the neighborhood, etc., that my letters would only steal whatever little time you had left. I know how to impose silence on myself, and I am currently enjoying the pleasure of breaking it.

[That said, when Camas is there again almost a year later, he gets a "stop inventing eloquent excuses for your laziness and write more often" letter afterwards, clearly in jest, but Fritz still makes sure to tell him it was a joke in the next one.]

Familiar FW whiplash a year later (which I'd encountered before, see #7), where he goes from

I feel the feelings of filial love redouble in me when I see feelings so reasonable and so just in the author of my days. (December 1738)

to this state of things in January 1739:

All these beautiful appearances of grace, benevolence and gentleness have disappeared like a dream. The King's temper was so soured, and his hatred against me manifested itself in so many different forms, that if I had not been what I am, I would have asked for my leave a long time ago; and I would like a thousand times better to beg my bread honorably elsewhere than to feed myself on the sorrows that I must devour here. The relentlessness of the King to denounce me secretly and in public is no longer something that is whispered to each other; it is the talk of the city, everyone witnesses it, and everyone talks about it; and what is most curious is that I still do not know my crime, if not that of being his heir apparent. [...]

The prognosis I made for myself is unfortunate, but true; I should never expect to be able to live in peace with a father who is easy to irritate, and who is filled with fatal impressions. I must see him as my most cruel enemy, who spies on me constantly to find the moment when he thinks he can give me the blow of jarnac [an unexpected blow from behind]. You have to be on your guard without slacking off; the slightest misstep, the slightest imprudence, a trifle, a nothing magnified and amplified, will suffice for my condemnation.

Another year later, December 1739, it's a mixed bag: We are amphibians of joy and sadness here; on the one hand we have parties to entertain my sister [Charlotte just came to visit], and on the other we pity the King for the uncertain and failing state of his health. You can, my dear friend, roughly imagine the situation in which we are; however, it is a hundred pikes preferable to that of last year, which was desperate. I will hardly be able to send you news from here, except that the old etiquette is observed regularly, that it has been terribly cold here, that we dance a lot, that we speak even more, and that the we laugh and cry in turn. We have two new envoys here, Rudenskjöld and Valori. The first is a witty, clever man who has a lot of knowledge and world. The second is a fool, very coarse, and so deeply absorbed by the salacious, that the man of quality is totally lost in it; [...]

Onto happier content, there are a few gift-related letters, mostly food from Camas and wine and glassware from Fritz. In January 1737 for example, Fritz writes a note to thank Camas for sending him cheese, adding: You get too favorable an idea of my poor solitude; we are more in a convent than in the world. Philosophy, however, does not make us more austere than necessary, as you have guessed very well. A thousand compliments to Madame. (By the way, greetings to Madame are a very common occurrence.)

And this one from February 1738 made me smile, even with the chronic debt problems in the background: My dear Camas, I give you a thousand thanks for the cheeses, the pears, and everything that you took pleasure to send me. Your memory is dearer to me than all the treasures that could be given to me, and even if your letters were accompanied only by a sprig of straw, that very straw would please me if it came from you. Do not think that I appreciate the marks of friendship according to their value or their weight in gold; far from it, I can assure you that the love of poverty was never to such a high degree among the Romans as it is with me. Mark of that: I don't have a dime in the whole house, nor in my power. [...]

Lots of "wish you were here" variations as well, and when Camas visits Rheinsberg in June 1738, this is the result: I must have struck you as an intruder, and perhaps even an annoyance, the whole time you have been here. I hounded you, I persecuted you to possess you for a few moments, and this, sometimes, when you needed rest. I confess my wrong to you, and I admit it; however, in order not to deny this unfortunate character, I will sustain it until the moment of your departure.

Lovely take on his quiet Rheinsberg life, October 1738 (if, as always, struggle with the Stoics): I'm not sure, to tell the truth, what the weather is like here. The sphere of my activity extends only from my home to my library: the trip is not long, and there is no time to feel the weather on the way. As for hunting, there is a whole coterie here that hunts for me, and I study for them; there is something for everyone, and no one is hindered in their entertainment. We politicize little, talk less, and think a lot. It is not a question here of the Greek, Turkish, or Christian emperor; it is the contentment of mind and peace of soul which I try, with my little convent, to cement as best as we can. If we succeed, that is the criterion. At least we work on it, although, to tell the truth, the impassibility of the Stoics seems to me to be in morality what the Philosopher's Stone is in chemistry and the squaring of the circle in mathematics: it is the chimerical idea of a perfection or a tranquility that we cannot achieve.

Also in 1738: Voltaire gossip. Someone not Fritz is writing to him and Fritz has to know everything, because reasons: [...] remember, please, that you promised me a certain letter from a person whose good wit had in some way obscured common sense; I will not misuse it; it will only be to satisfy my curiosity, and to give me a little sermon on the foolishness that self-love can make same-minded people commit. The ridicule of others makes me tremble for myself, and I do not hear of any extravagance that, by looking back on myself, I do not fear being at risk of committing as well. [...] I would say much more if I did not fear to abuse your patience; I therefore expect from you all the correspondence of our heroine Don Quixote of the good wit, and the answers of Voltaire, if he does [answer], which can only be entertaining.

He gets the letter from Camas - unintelligible epistle of our very obscure beautiful mind [...], a masterpiece of extravagance - and a couple of months later has this to report: I had my spies on the campaign to find out the answer that the Solomon of Cirey gave the queens of Northern Saba [Madame Louise von Brandt and Madame de Wr...]. I learned that it was a very didactic reasoning on how to suppress and overcome passions. It is left to know if it was to the taste of our heroines in fine spirits; it's up to you to judge.

In August 1739, Camas gets sick and Fritz worries: The second piece of news, which distresses me, which worries me, which alarms me, is the gout with which you are said to be tormented; I admit that I trembled at the mere thought of seeing such a brave officer become an invalid, such an honest man, such an experienced soldier, who, for having lost one of his limbs for the country, seems to deserve that human infirmities respect those whom he saved from a thousand dangers and a hundred battles. Your letter reassures me in some way, if it is not the effect of one of those generous efforts of friendship which puts aside pain and what can disturb common souls. I still fear for you, my dear Camas, and I reproach you for not having said two words to me about your health, which is dear to me, in a letter of four pages. You may think that I think only of myself, and that, intoxicated with my happiness [the first piece of news = FW just gifted him the Prussian stud farms at Trakehnen], I count my friends for nothing. Disillusion yourself, I beg you; no, I will never be indifferent to those with whom I am bound by the sacred knots of friendship. [...]

I'd love to include the four-page letter from Camas, or any letter from Camas, but I'm pretty sure Preuss edited even the single one that's available, only leaving a couple of lines of praise for the "Ode on Flattery" (written in the wake of a conversation they had about the topic), which is both ironic and not very interesting.

The final 1740 letters are short notes Fritz seems to have written while they were both in Berlin, sending some of his verses back and forth. For some reason, I found them oddly charming. The last one: My dear Camas, by asking you to lend me for a few moments the tale of the doctor which I gave you [a satire inspired by Superville], I will pay you the interest in advance through two Epistles. If I told you that the weather is fine outside, and that the walk is charming, you would be outraged; but telling you that I esteem you with all my heart cannot, I hope, be disagreeable to you. These are the feelings with which, in wishing you good night, I am all yours. Farewell. Federic

Finally, once he became king, he sent Camas on a diplomatic mission to Paris and while there are a couple of letters in the Political Correspondence from that time, they all contain only official politics, largely written by secretaries, and nothing personal. Camas did meet Voltaire, though, who gets the last word here, from a letter he wrote to Fritz in September: If kings are the images of the gods, and the ambassadors the images of kings, it follows, Sire, by Wolff's fourth theorem, that the gods are chubby, and have a very agreeable physiognomy. Blessed is this M. de Camas, not so much because he represents Your Majesty but because he will see you again!

Thank you so much for this write up. Colonel Camas definitely sounds like a much liked/loved paternal mentor, and it’s fascinating that he’s entrusted with the ups and downs of the FW/Fritz relationship, given this is a very hot iron indeed and FW is Camas’ commander-in-chief and ultra distrustful against his officers conspiring with the rising sun. Incidentally, I’ve been trying to think for a while what set FW off in January 1739. Sure, it doesn’t have to be an actual reason (abusers don’t need one), but more often than not there’s a triggering event. I mean, in the crisis year 1730, you had the English marriage disaster and the debts coming to light as outward triggers. But in early 1739, Fritz has spent almost a decade being the perfect obedient son, with the non appearance of a grandchild really being the only thing where you can accuse him of not matching FW’s expectations. So why now? FW becomes aware one more illness will do him in and he’s rulnning on borrowed time?

Madame de Wr... writing to Voltaire: Madame de Wreech, whom Fritz wrote poetry to in Küstrin? (Also the mother of two of Heinrich’s courtiers. Also made a pass to Lehndorff in her later years.)

We have two new envoys here, Rudenskjöld and Valori. The first is a witty, clever man who has a lot of knowledge and world. The second is a fool, very coarse, and so deeply absorbed by the salacious, that the man of quality is totally lost in it; [...]

Hang on, what? In that order? That would be a very negative first judgment on Valori, author of some of the best Fritz portraits in writing by a contemporary, and friends with his younger brothers.

I’m charmed by Voltaire deducing Fritz early 1740s chubbiness from Camas. :)

Incidentally, I’ve been trying to think for a while what set FW off in January 1739.

I noticed that he was set off in January 1736 and January 1739. This coincides with Fritz visiting Berlin.

cahn and I had a conversation (related to her Yuletide Madness fic) recently about how dysfunctional families set up all these expectations about how GREAT it's going to be to get together and see each other again, and the disappointment sets in early and increases throughout the visit. Wusterhausen is only a particularly egregious example.

Going from warm and fuzzies in December, in the first part of the visit, to disillusionment in January, is straight out of the dysfunctional family playbook, to borrow a phrase from

rachelmanija.

Wait, didn't Fritz spent parts of basically every December/January after his marriage in Berlin/with his family? That's what I thought at least.

For example, he was in Berlin in December 1737 as well, writing this to Camas: It is believed that the King will come on Monday to honor his capital with his presence. Time will develop the events that we have to wait for. It is assured that he will come as a beneficent divinity, to spread everywhere his benign influences. Others maintain that it will be blazing Jupiter, armed with thunders. For myself, I wait for everything with admirable composure, not foreseeing what I have to fear, especially since I feel clean and undefiled. I hope to do better in this campaign than Seckendorff, and to get back to my sheep next month.

And then the next letter from Potsdam in January: I have been here for three days awaiting a fit of repentance, holiness, credulity, etc., which I hope will pass before Monday; that dispatched, I plan to leave by Tuesday or Wednesday. I was treated very gently, but the devil loses nothing; you know the spirit of the court, and that is enough to judge it.

Yep, as far as I know, he spent every December/January there. I suspect a lot of emotional upheaval around that time of year. It sounds like 1737/1738 went a bit better, but still very stressful for Fritz.

So more background on this: the Madness ficlet was originally set in Wusterhausen (with Amalie just being fond of asking weird questions when she gets drunk), but before the big blowup fight, and I had a line in there about how it wasn't really living up to Heinrich's expectations (except for Fritz not being there, lol), and mildred asked why, since she'd assumed from that line that the ficlet took place after the fight. Hence the discussion about expectations, which I am mortally certain happened in that Wusterhausen trip, probably before the big fight too.

Anyway, when the setting of Amalie betaing Heinrich's play became a thing, I dropped the Wusterhausen setting :)

much liked/loved paternal mentor / FW is Camas’ commander-in-chief and ultra distrustful against his officers conspiring with the rising sun

I guess that might have been one reason for Fritz' caution re: Wusterhausen and writing to Camas there. Do we know anything about how Fritz and Camas got close in the first place?

Madame de Wr... writing to Voltaire: Madame de Wreech, whom Fritz wrote poetry to in Küstrin?

No idea, might be. The ellipses come from a Fritz letter, not sure why he wouldn't write it out.

Hang on, what? In that order? That would be a very negative first judgment on Valori

Yep, in that order! Fritz definitely didn't like Valori, I remember that he said as much in his letters to Voltaire and regretted that he replaced La Chetardie ... wait, let me have a look ... okay:

October 10th, before meeting him: I don't know who and how this M. Valori is, but I've heard it said that he doesn't have the tone of good company. (Pleschinski translates "kein angenehmer Zeitgenosse" - no idea who told Fritz that)

And then in December around the same time as the Camas letter: This M. de Valori, so long announced by the voice of the public, so often promised by the gazettes, so long arrested in Hamburg, has finally arrived in Berlin. It makes us very much regret La Chétardie. M. de Valori shows us every day what we lost with the first. It is now only theoretical courses of the Brabant wars, trifles and minutiae of the French army; and I constantly see a man who believes himself vis-à-vis the enemy and at the head of his brigade. I always fear that he would take me for a counterscarp or a work with horns, and that he would dishonestly assault me. M. de Valori almost always has a migraine; he has not the tone of society; he does not soup; and it is said that the headache does him too much honor to inconvenience him, and that he does not deserve it at all.

Also: Valori says that you were exiled from France as an enemy of the Roman religion, and I replied that he had lied about it.

There you have it!

Fritz and Camas: no idea.

Valori: Well! That’s very interesting, given that Valori - like Mitchell three wars later - will go into the field with him. Also because Valori is one of the longest lasting envoys and one of the best liked by people other than Fritz. (According to Lehndorff, he even had intended to settle down in Berlin as a retirement place when politics changed irrevocably.) As mentioned, he was great friends with the Divine Trio, and far from being a dull conversationalist, he came up with one of the best bonmots about Fritz. (“It’s impossible to have more esprit than he does, but very possible to make better use of it.”) And like I said, the characterisation he gives of Fritz, written in the early 1750s, is one of the best portraits around. It’s quoted almost in full in the “Friedrich der Große und Maria Theresia in den Augen ihrer Zeitgenossen” anthology which I summarized and excerpted at Rheinsberg.

Of course, if Fritz takes that much against him on sight it puts a new light on Valori and Darget ending up in “The Palladion”, but it does make me wonder what Valori’s actual offense was. Seeing too much? Hitting it off too well with the brothers?

Re Fritz taking an instant dislike to Valori, see also this discussion.

re: Doctor Superville [what a name] - didn't Valory say some similar things that early? I seem to remember coming across that. (And Voltaire kind of jokes about the mutual dislike between him and Fritz in one of the letters I read yesterday.)
...
Fritz told Voltaire that he didn't like [Valory] the minute he showed up and then Voltaire made a joke about the way Valory saw Fritz

You know what, now I'm wondering if Algarotti is the one who talked to Fritz about Valori, although the negativity doesn't really seem like him (he visited Rheinsberg about two weeks before the October letter to Voltaire).

Voltaire himself didn't know Valori before November/December 1740, when he seems to have spent some time at his place, because he promptly sets his Algarotti poem at Valori's:

Mais quand, chez le gros Valori,
Je vois le tendre Algarotti
Presser d'une vive embrassade
Le beau Lugeac, son jeune ami,
Je crois voir Socrate affermi
Sur la croupe d'Alcibiade;

And thank you for reposting the whole portrait - I had read it before but it was definitely good to reread and refresh my memory.

And so no one has to look it up, here’s Valory’s portrait of Fritz after a decade of acquaintance:

I beginn with his portrait. His face is compelling. He's small and of noble bearing. His figure isn't regular; his hips are too high, and his legs are too strong. He has beautiful blue eyes which are a bit too strongly pronounced, but easily reflect his moods, so their expression varies depending on his state of mind. If he's dissatisfied with something, their gaze is threatening, but nothing is more soft, gracious and captivating than if he's in a mood to please. His hair is thick, mouth and nose agreeable, his smile charming and witty, but often bitter and mocking. When his soul is peaceful, the softness of his gaze can charm anyone. His health varies, his temper heated, and his personal life style contributes quite a lot to heating his blood. He used to drink incredible amounts of coffee. One day, I dared to tell him that he drank too much coffee; he admitted as much and said he was trying to abandon the habit. "I now drink only six to seven cups in the morning", he said, "and after supper only one."

The King is extreme in anything he does. His main character flaw is his misanthropy. A virtuous and enlightened man is his ideal, and in his opinion the most foolish people are called honorable men. In general, he finds only a few to have wit, and he doesn't esteem the so colled common sense which as opposed to wit can provide a right and sound judgment. Anyone has their share of the later, and only a ruler of judgment can esteem everyone correctly, and if a man has his right place, he can surprise even the most witty people. The King talks a lot and very well, but he listens very little, and mocks every objection.

One can be hardly more daring than he is; hence his contempt for humanity. He speaks out against vice with surprising eloquence. The same is true for morals, the most beautiful traits of which he seems to have learned to name by heart. But he's so little consequential and believes so little in what he says that his own claims refute him only fifteen minutes later.

He does have principles regarding administration, and, if I may say so, even about temper and disloyal reports. Fortunately what he decides when in a mood isn't set in stone; he usually returns to a correct judgment. If, however, his decision is made, he has no regard for etiquette. As soon as something he has come up with and pondered thoroughly appears right to him, he abandons all restraint in order to execute it. He is extremely suspicious; if he was less so, he'd be content to have come up with good ideas and would delegate their execution to his ministers, who are more sensible than he is and would soften any too great harshness.

Again: he has contempt for humankind and believes people are born to obey without talking back. This explains the excess in his behavior and the obvious paradoxes which amaze all who managed to get closer to him. I always have tried to analyze the immediate causes he named for his rejections, as well as the reasons why he hurt or flattered those close to him. In most cases, I had to admit his reasons were good, though not the form they took.

He owes the conquest of Silesia (...) to his boundless energy. (...) The good status of his troops and his magazines which were equipped with all that was needed to start a campaign with a strong army heightened his audacity and made him reckless for as long as he was confronted by only a handful of troops dispersed across a few Silesian fortresses. As soon as he was confronted with a proper army, he got conscious of all the dangers he faced. I dare to say he even exaggareted them in his mind. His consistent fortune has nourished his boldness for a while, but since then he thought about this and has admitted he owes much to luck. His enemy in a distance is always politics. The later often get scorned as being dependent on the moment, especially the Saxons, and yet during the campaign of 1744, they caused him the deepest trouble, but he punished them thouroughly for it in 1745. In this last campaign, he has shown the talents of a great general. But he believes to have all the talents, both those of a King and of a writer, which is a strange brew; we see the great man occupy himself with trifles.

The arts have become his weakness, in the same way as his royal father had a weakness for anyone above six feet. He pursues the reputation of a polymath - the poet, the orator, the musician are starting to dominate the King in him. His many troops force thriftiness on him, and yet I dare say he's too thrifty. It is impossible to possess more ésprit than he does, but very possible to make a better use of it. He's never more charming than if he wants to please you, and he always wants this to flatter his love of self. Once he has charmed you, he neglects you and regards you as his slave, who is there to obey him in a servile manner and to put up with all his moods.

He's harsh and masterful towards his brothers. He holds them in an utter dependency which he himself never got used to when having it on his father who made everyone tremble. This father knew him very well and once told him: "When you are lord and master here, you will betray everyone, for you can't help yourself. You are false to the core of your being, and a betrayer. Be careful, Friedrich! Make that first betrayal as complete as possible, for you won't manage to fool them a second time." I have a trusthworthy second source for this anecdote, for it has been confirmed to me by the crown prince, his worthy brother. I hope thus to have drawn some traits of his character for you. In totem, he remains an enigma.

This is lovely, thank you!

As mentioned, he lost his arm at age 18 (during the War of the Spanish Succession), got a prosthesis and kept rising through the ranks until he died in 1741 (of fever).

I forgot to mention it in your earlier writeup, so I will here. Wow, this guy!

I feel the feelings of filial love redouble in me when I see feelings so reasonable and so just in the author of my days.

My response was something like "...well, I guess I can see why you might be super impressed by FW ever acting reasonable." Gah, abusive families.

Your memory is dearer to me than all the treasures that could be given to me, and even if your letters were accompanied only by a sprig of straw, that very straw would please me if it came from you.

Awww, this is really sweet <3

Voltaire gossip. Someone not Fritz is writing to him and Fritz has to know everything, because reasons

Of COURSE he does :P

The letter where Camas is sick is just really sweet <3

Blessed is this M. de Camas, not so much because he represents Your Majesty but because he will see you again!

Awwww, these guys! <3

Okay, here I am!

This is quite an interesting mystery. Many clues, and I'm not sure how to put them together.

The first thing that came to mind when I saw the date was EC, which I see you guys discussed. FW is on him about the succession, and he's going to have to move in with her soon. That said, on further reading, I join you in rejecting this hypothesis. Not only does it not fit the further clues he drops, but I don't think he would hesitate to confide in Wilhelmine. If he couldn't say, "I'm really afraid I'm going to have to start sleeping with her regularly or she's going to tell on me to Dad," he could at least bitch about having to move in with her, and vent that way. And he seems to have had no trouble saying "I can't sleep with my wife out of passion" to other people, so...I agree with

selenak that I don't think that's it.

That said, if anyone is planning on writing 1736 fanfic, fear of having to sleep with her regularly might be something preying on his mind. ;)

So, putting the clues I have together:

- It primarily concerns someone else.
- He's worried about one of his friends.
- He's afraid of being told not to worry so much.
- It doesn't come from the heart.

The last one doesn't seem to fit with the other three. I'm not sure what to make of that. Like you guys, my first reaction was Gröben and the STD! But Gröben's gambling debts make at least as much sense, maybe more. We know that Fritz was lending/giving money to his friends during these years, that was one reason he was pumping everyone he knew for money. (Or at least that's what he claimed, but I believe it.)

If it were just his own debts, he would say so and ask for money, but someone else's debts and general poor life choices might worry him.

Alternately, given what we know about Fritz's tendency to be very distressed when his loved ones are sick, it could be that. Now, normally he would just say so. But there are at least two people he might worry about that he couldn't necessarily say he was worried about.

- Duhan, who he's not supposed to be in contact with, and who's apparently struggling with depression in the 1730s.
- Fredersdorf, whom he's not supposed to have feelings for.

Now, he seems to have secure lines of communication with Wilhelmine, and she certainly respects the heck out of Duhan, so I *think* Fritz would have said he was worried about Duhan if that were it.

Could Fredersdorf be sick? And Fritz is worried about him (especially if Fritz is in Berlin and Fredersdorf had to stay in Ruppin, but even if not), and he can't admit it, because people are going to be like, "He's a valet. You can get another one." And he can't go, "HE'S MY ~~BOYFRIEND~~ LIFE PARTNER!"

You know, while a friend's gambling debts or another form of trouble a friend could have gotten into could be it, my current headcanon is Fredersdorf being seriously sick.

The only thing that doesn't fit is "it comes not from my heart but from another part," but I can't quite figure that line out at all.

Given that he's building Rheinsberg around the time, and that he has the vague "morality beyond my reach" line in his letter to Camas, Wilhelmine's guess might be it?

Okay, so, based on my reading of Fritz's correspondence, where this theme crops up over and over again, I'm 99% sure "morality" is referring to Stoicism here. He's afraid of being told to take a stiff upper lip stance, accept that bad things happen, and console himself with philosophy.

It goes with:

as regards my sorrow, I do not feel any decrease. I speak to myself, I reason, I moralize; but I feel that temperament still has the upper hand over reason. In the end, dear Camas, that of adversity is a hard school; I was, so to speak, born and brought up in it; it takes away a lot from the world, it shows the vanity of the objects it presents to us, their lack of solidity, and the inconstancy that the revolution of time brings with it.

And he's saying he loves his friends too much to be indifferent to their sorrows, so please don't tell him to be a good Stoic.

Which. Fritz. Is what he *always* says when he's worried or grieving someone, and then the moment someone *else* is worried or grieving, he writes a condolence letter going, "I know from experience that philosophy is basically useless at a time like this, but remember your philosophy!"

This is Fontane on Fritz when Henricus Minor (our term for AW's son Heinrich, to distinguish him from birthday boy Heinrich) dies:

Rittmeister von Wödtke brought the sad news to the king. The King was moved to a rare degree. One of the high officers comforted the king and urged him to calm himself. "He ["er" of direct address] is right," Fritz answered, "but he doesn't feel the pain that this loss has caused me." "Yes, Your Majesty, I feel it; he was the most promising of princes." The King shook his head and said, "He has the pain on his tongue, I have it here." And so saying, he laid his hand on his heart.

But when Duhan's father dies, this is one of Fritz's better condolence letters:

It is certain that the most severe tests, which we are obliged to pass in this world, are when we lose people forever who are dear to us. Constancy, steadfastness, and reason seem little help to us in these sad circumstances, and we only listen to our pain in these moments. I feel sorry for you with all my heart, seeing you in such a situation. [...] What is more common than being born and dying? However, we are always astonished at death, as if it were something foreign to us, and uncommon.

Console yourself, my dear Duhan, as best you can. Consider that there is a necessity which determines all events, and that it is impossible to fight what is resolved. We only make ourselves unhappy, without changing anything in our condition, and we spread bitterness over the happiest days of our life, the brevity of which should invite us not to grieve so much with unhappiness.

The struggle between reason and philosophy on the one hand, and compassion and grief on the other, tormented Fritz for his entire life. When Biche died, he wrote to Wilhelmine along the lines of, "I know a good philosopher wouldn't be this torn up over a dog, and I'm kind of embarrassed. But I don't want to be the kind of person who wouldn't be torn up over losing their favorite dog! Dogs are worthy of love and grief!! *sob*"

I worked this into my fic when he loses his dogs, and he's *trying* to be philosophical, and he can't fully.

The fact that this is consistently his discourse when it comes to death makes me think that in January 1736 someone is worryingly sick and he can't talk about it. Which makes me think of Fredersdorf. But I'm not ruling out other people's STDs or gambling debts either!

Confiding in Pöllnitz, really, Fritz? You know better.

Well, there's confiding and there's confiding. There's a decent chance Fritz, who is pretty cynical and suspicious by this age, is playing an intrigue game.

Oh, also, speaking of 1736 fanfic and the relationship between Fritz and FW being on the downswing in January 1736, by May 2, FW is all "There stands one who will avenge me!" (which is admittedly more motivated by politics than Fritz being on his good side). For all that the Rheinsberg years were the "happy" ones, the constant whiplash was a huge stressor on Fritz.

Edited 2021-01-18 18:01 (UTC)

- It doesn't come from the heart.

Okay, so. This one isn't quite as clear as it seems in English I think. I left the google translation as it was, because it was one possible version, but the original French goes as follows: Avec cela, j'ai une juste cause d'affliction, qui m'est sensible jusqu'au fond du cœur; elle ne vient point d'ici, mais d'autre part; - the "not from the heart" is one possible interpretation of the "d'ici" phrase I'd say, but you don't have to read it that way, because "ici" can mean a lot of things and it's unclear if it's actually related to "coeur". He could even be talking geography and saying his affliction doesn't come from Berlin but from somewhere else! Which would fit your theory.

Okay, so, based on my reading of Fritz's correspondence, where this theme crops up over and over again, I'm 99% sure he's referring to Stoicism here.

Ohhhh. Nice. I definitely read his "moralize" in the second letter that way, but because he also has the heroism part in the first letter - which I took to mean just that, stoically withstanding things - I took the "morality" part more literally in that case, precisely because he's being so cryptic and seems worried that Camas might disapprove - and "worried for a sick friend" seems like something that Camas wouldn't object to or even fail to understand and sympathize with, unless the source of the illness is the problem - or the identity of the friend, as per your theory. Hmmm.

Yeah, I had gone and looked at the French for "doesn't come from there, but from another part," and I concluded I have no idea what he's talking about. I wonder if it's time to grab my native speaker friend for consulting services again.

And yes, the "either morality or heroism" gave me pause for the reason you mention, but I *think* I would still take it as referring to Stoicism rather than conventional morality, just because it's such a common trope in Fritz's letters. And redundancy in the form of parallel clauses is a stylistic device in both the Bible and Roman literature (Cicero is *all over* it), and all their imitators since. Your interpretation isn't impossible, though!

This is definitely a crux.

I think this take on "morality" is definitely in keeping with Fritz' use of it, not to mention that it would make sense for him to pick one concept that's more philosophy-based (morality) and one that's more military-based (heroism) to express a similar thought. (The combination of both sides is what drove Voltaire nuts after all. ;))

"worried for a sick friend" seems like something that Camas wouldn't object to or even fail to understand and sympathize with, unless the source of the illness is the problem - or the identity of the friend, as per your theory. Hmmm.

I could believe both, except that I think Fritz could pass off being worried for Fredersdorf being sick to Camas as being a good feudal lord concerned for a faithful servant, so I'm still betting on Gröben and a combination of STD and gambling debts. Not least because I don't think Fredersdorf's health problems had kicked in yet, though I could be wrong about this. Of course we don't have letters between him and Fritz from that era. And the thing is, by the later 1730s, Fritz definitely wasn't hiding that Fredersdorf wasn't an exchangeable servant to him; see Bielfeld's description of Fredersdorf as: The Prince's first valet, Herr Fredersdorf, is a tall, beautiful man, who has wit and intelligence. He's polite, attentive, skillful, smooth, likes his possessions but still likes splendour. I believe he'll play a large role one day. And if Bielfeld had noticed, Camas probably had as well.

Now with Wilhelmine, both a sick Fredersdorf and an STD and gambling debts ridden Gröben would be reasons to be cryptic - whereas simply accumulating more and more debts would not be - so that's not a tell in either direction.

Lastly: there's the way STD keeps coming up, both as a rumor about Fritz in his younger days (so established and wide spread that a visiting tourist like Boswell hears about it in 1764), and by Fritz himself when wanting do make a dig at others. In one of those poems mocking the rest of Europe which Voltaire wasn't supposed to take along, he's accusing Louis XV. to have it, for example; but more interestingly, there's the way he uses it in the Marwitz letters to Heinrich, completely out of the blue. I mean, he goes from mocking Heinrich and Marwitz for pining to saying "oh, and btw, that guy is a total slut with STD!" Given the way Fritz used Heinrich to play out his own life again with reversed roles, this makes me suspect he had at some point crushed on someone who turned out to have STD. (Could have been Algarotti, of course, except that his reaction to Algarotti having STD is so very blasé.)

I'm not wedded to the "Fredersdorf is sick" hypothesis, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

I could believe both, except that I think Fritz could pass off being worried for Fredersdorf being sick to Camas as being a good feudal lord concerned for a faithful servant

Worried, yes. Making sure Fredersdorf is taken care of, sure. Having stress-related illness, that's as bad as colic, because of it? I suspect the reaction would be similar to this one letter I saw, probably in the Fairchilds servants book: a noble teenage boy, maybe about 14 years old, has just had his tutor/governor/whatever taken away. Several months later, he writes to his father, begging for his tutor back, because he can't be happy without him. The boy is clearly having stress-related illness and depression from the separation from the guy who'd been parenting him for the last several years. The father writes an uncomprehending letter back that the son's filial regard for his tutor does them both honor, but it's time to move on.

I suspect losing sleep over your valet falls into the same category. You were the one who said Fritz couldn't write to anyone about Fredersdorf's death even after the guy had publicly been first minister for 15 years and Lehndorff was calling him the Prussian Pompadour, because Fritz didn't have a vocabulary for how much Fredersdorf had meant to him! Fredersdorf also never seems to have come up in the Fritz/Wilhelmine letters, granted that the complete correspondence hasn't been published.

Not least because I don't think Fredersdorf's health problems had kicked in yet, though I could be wrong about this.

They don't need to have; it's the 18th century. Do we know when Fredersdorf had smallpox? Or any number of other infectious diseases?

And the thing is, by the later 1730s, Fritz definitely wasn't hiding that Fredersdorf wasn't an exchangeable servant to him; see Bielfeld's description of Fredersdorf

I would be very surprised if Fritz wasn't trying to keep it at least partly on the down low as long as FW was alive. Bielfeld lived at Rheinsberg, and I have definitely read, though I forget where now, that many or all of his letters were composed later in life. That's why when I reported him writing in 1740 that Fritz would someday be called great, I said I didn't know if that was written with the benefit of hindsight.

Okay, Carlyle definitely says the letters were not sent through the post office but were written after the fact. I don't know if a more reliable source says that or if modern scholarship has weighed in. But given what some of the people in our fandom have gotten up to, Bielfeld's letters could be anywhere from Catt-like self-insert fanfic, to Lady Mary redacting her letters for publication by removing repetition and creating a narrative. I just don't know.

But I wouldn't put somebody who authored and sold a book of his own letters in his own lifetime, in 1763 to boot, i.e. right after Fritz had won the Seven Years' War and this book was guaranteed to sell, up there with Preuss collating letters from the Prussian archives after Fritz's death, in terms of evidence that a given passage was written in the year the passage is claimed to have been written.

Even if the Fredersdorf passage is totally genuine, Bielfeld writing in October 1739 (almost the exact time the "rising sun" ceiling was painted), and staying at Rheinsberg and being a Freemason in the Rheinsberg lodge with both Fritz and Fredersdorf (assuming Bielfeld can be trusted on that), is far from the same as Camas corresponding long-distance with Fritz in January 1736, in terms of their respective insights into Fritz's relationship with Fredersdorf.

Now, it could be a friend's STD and/or (the friend's) gambling debts, certainly! Or something else we haven't thought of. But if you're right that Fritz couldn't talk about Fredersdorf's death even after a publicly known relationship that had lasted over 25 years, talking about Fredersdorf's illness after 5 years, when he must have been trying not to let FW catch on, must have been at least as difficult.

Edited 2021-01-24 19:23 (UTC)

a noble teenage boy, maybe about 14 years old, has just had his tutor/governor/whatever taken away. Several months later, he writes to his father, begging for his tutor back, because he can't be happy without him.

Wasn't that in fact future FW4 to FW3, with the governor in question this guy? (Result: yet another dysfunctional authoritarian Hohenzollern on the throne later on. Yay!)

But if you're right that Fritz couldn't talk about Fredersdorf's death even after a publicly known relationship that had lasted over 25 years, talking about Fredersdorf's illness after 5 years, when he must have been trying not to let FW catch on, must have been at least as difficult.

This is undoubtedly true. I also readily concede the possibility/likelihood of Bielfeld doctoring, editing or writing his letters with the benefit of hindsight. However, I'm still too stuck on the "not from the heart, but from another part" phrasing - as surely worrying about Fredersdorf being threateningly ill would have been very much a matter of the heart to Fritz -, and on the fact we don't even know that Fredersdorf was ill to begin with to subscribe to this theory. Doesn't mean I wouldn't read a h/c fanfiction based on it! It would be a great premise for one.

Wasn't that in fact future FW4 to FW3

Since I don't remember where I got that from, if you do, then that's probably the one I'm thinking of!

However, I'm still too stuck on the "not from the heart, but from another part" phrasing

But didn't we decide that was only one possible interpretation of "d'ici"? I'm still trying to consult with more fluent French speakers on the matter (waiting to hear back).

And I'm definitely not asserting that Fredersdorf was sick! As you say, we have no evidence and I'm making this up out of wholecloth. I'm only playing devil's advocate to patch up the holes you're poking. ;)

Hurt/comfort fic sounds great, regardless. :)

1736 events of possible relevance/background to hypothetical fics:

January: Fritz has colic and a mystery affliction.
February 12: MT/FS marriage.
Early March: Pesne paints Fritz, gets the mouth right by telling him to think of Wilhelmine. Fritz, Suhm, and La Chetardie all studying philosophy together.
March 22: Fritz sends salmon to FS.
May 2: "There stands one who will avenge me." (Re not being informed of the MT/FS marriage, as the latest in a string of grievances.)
May 6: Babysitting at Ruppin.
August: Move to Rheinsberg.

Edited 2021-01-26 01:25 (UTC)

However, I'm still too stuck on the "not from the heart, but from another part" phrasing - as surely worrying about Fredersdorf being threateningly ill would have been very much a matter of the heart to Fritz

Okay! A native speaker friend of a friend has weighed in, and her interpretation is that Fritz is saying that, although he feels the pain from the bottom of his heart, it's not his heart *qua biological organ* that's causing the pain, but his mind that's causing his (metaphorical) heart emotional distress.

Which is absolutely consistent with the rest of the letter and makes perfect sense to me. And which does not help us distinguish between Groeben and Fredersdorf. ;)

:) I'm glad we had the native speaker input, but it's just ic for Fritz remain an engigma, isn't it?

Fritz couldn't write to anyone about Fredersdorf's death even after the guy had publicly been first minister for 15 years and Lehndorff was calling him the Prussian Pompadour, because Fritz didn't have a vocabulary for how much Fredersdorf had meant to him

I'd been wondering about the lack of Fredersdorf in Fritz' letters and this is a really fascinating explanation.

Okay, so, your mention of incurring debts and building Rheinsberg jogged something in my memory, and I've finally remembered where I read it: Krockow. This is Google translated, from the translation my algorithms prepared last year, because I don't have time to retranslate the German myself:

The purchase price was 75,000 thalers, of which the stingy majesty only contributed 50,000. The remainder, including all the costs for the renovation and expansion, was passed on to the Crown Prince's household, a substantial portion of which probably came from the dowry of Crown Princess Elisabeth Christine. Friedrich Wilhelm appointed his building director Johann Gottfried Kemmeter from the Kurmark to be the architect, naturally with urgent instructions for the greatest possible economy. Logically, Friedrich was soon no longer enough, what Kemmeter did, and in 1737 he appointed his own architect, Knobelsdorff, who had returned from Italy.

With the ambitious plans, of course, the lack of money increased, and getting into debt became notorious. The courtier and memoir writer Baron Pöllnitz reports of a significant incident: In the summer of 1736, Friedrich Wilhelm visited Rheinsberg. When the King had lunch with the Crown Prince and appeared to be in an excellent mood, [Minister] Grumbkow took the opportunity to favor the latter, with whom he was not exactly on the best of terms. So he began to praise the splendid dinner which the Crown Prince had set before the King, and added jokingly that he would not be able to hold such banquets often, otherwise his finances would suffer. The king asked his son if he owed him and how much it was. The Crown Prince did not dare to name a sum greater than 40,000 thalers, whereupon the King said he would pay him. Grumbkow then asked whether this was to be understood as meaning that the annual income of the Crown Prince should be increased by the sum mentioned. Friedrich Wilhelm, meanwhile, acted as if he hadn't heard anything, but the next day he sent his son the 40,000 thalers."

So we knew he was in debt and that he didn't want his father to find out, but that's nothing new in the 1730s and even late 1720s. I feel like it would neither distress him *that* much (he should be used to it by now!) nor that he wouldn't mention it to Wilhelmine. So I continue to not think this is what he's referring to, but I thought I would share this passage, since it's relevant to our discussion of his notorious 1730s debts. And it contains details that might be useful if anyone ever writes that Rokoko babysitting fic. ;)

Btw, the next paragraph is entertaining:

Unfortunately, it was the famous drop in the bucket. Frederick approached the courts in Vienna or London for help as secretly as urgently, and with the charm and tact of a future ruler he wrote to his middleman in St. Petersburg: “The king is sick. You can use that as a good reason to have a good sum advanced next summer. Seriously, if you want to give me thanks, you have to be quick.” But whatever you slipped him, there was no talk of gratitude later. The emperor in particular would have better spent his money on soldiers to protect Silesia.

Rokoko babysitting fic is still on the agenda. ;) AndI agree he'd have mentioned his debts to Wilhelmine. (Who must have lend him money at some point if he paid her 50 000 Taler back post ascension to the throne.) (Though maybe that could have been for her jewelry from 1730?)

with the charm and tact of a future ruler

Quite. :) Mind you, the "Dad is about to kick the bucket, you better bribe me NOW NOW NOW if you want me to favor you" grift worked, so... (Seckendorff: And then he had the gall of calling me a sleazy ursurer in his book!) (MT: And this, children, is why I ended up firing most of my father's cabinet in 1741.)

Happy birthday to our community

rheinsberg, which is one year old today and one of the best things we've done! The idea may have been mine,

selenak, but almost all the content is yours, and as always,

cahn, you were the unwitting catalyst. <3

Here's to year two!

(We also have a couple birthdays for key antiheroes in our fandom coming up in the next few days.)

I salute our community with my favourite vid of the place.

And Mildred, you're exaggarating - just think of all the Katte execution (and Katte family) posts of yours! The Keith family contributions (Peter specifically)! Suuuuuhm!

re: birthdays, zomg, so we do. Both of them.

Edited 2021-01-16 16:07 (UTC)

Me writing code and manually tagging the contributor of each post (can't easily be done programmatically, because I post so many of your long write-ups):

~/Documents/fritz_projects/word_counts/rheinsberg$ ./author_breakdown.sh 
Selena: 322,810
Mildred: 121,940
Gambitten: 4,611
Felis: 4,514
Cahn: 3,250
Total: 457,125

The numbers are not totally precise, but they should be good approximations.

And yes, I have a whole (private!) GitHub repo named "fritz_projects". :P

Speaking of Rheinsberg, I notice that your Der Vater write-up isn't there. Would you like me to add it, or would you prefer to do it when you have time?

I'm still meaning to add my Diderot write-up, and it occurs to me that I should add

gambitten's list of sources as well. Bayreuth pictures as a holdover until you're able to go in person would still be great! I had to track them down in old comment threads during Yuletide research.

P.S. You're awesome, and over 70% of the content is yours, as I have numerically proved. :D

Oh, hey,

cahn, you have a Candide write-up now! You should post it.

Edited 2021-01-19 00:18 (UTC)

Der Vater: I'd prefer to do it myself, both because I'd add a bit about the author's Protestant background (which is important to how he presents FW) and because since writing it I've read all the Hervey stuff and Beuys' SC biography which gave me some answers to wondering what JK had or had not invented about young FW. However, I'd appreciate a link to my original write up.

Bayreuth: Okay, I'll do a "Wilhelmine's burial place" post, to be later extended to a proper Bayreuth picture post once it's possible to go there and take pictures again.

I'm definitely chatty in salon, though, no question:

User	Words	Comments
mildred	811,995	3,169
selenak	791,848	2,008
cahn	179,355	1,792
felis	20,098	84
gambitten	11,782	28
prinzsorgenfrei	10,955	58
Everyone else	19,705	94
Total	1,813,858	7,121

cahn, I'm amused by how very close the word count of your average post is to exactly 100.

selenak, your comment count being 2/3 of mine and your word count nearly the same is exactly why you have so much more

rheinsberg content: you do more meaty write-ups.

lol! At first I was thinking "cool, I write drabble comments!" but then I realized that it's probably a rather bifurcated distribution :)

I've finished! It's short and very Voltaire :) (I am glad I read this while reading the Orieux -- having a sense of Voltaire helps, I think.) Unfortunately no really good footnotes to share in the last half, although I will say that the footnotes make it clear that Voltaire continues to make fun of everyone whom he has any kind of conflict with. But some general thoughts/description, anyway:

As even my barbaric ahistorical self knew before reading it, the major idea of Candide is to rebut Leibniz's idea that this is the best of all possible worlds (which is the teaching of the absurd tutor Pangloss). He does this by having all kinds of terrible (and often hilarious) things happen to Candide, and Candide is also put in the path of many other characters (most interestingly the Old Lady and Martin the Manichee, the latter of whom I'll speak a bit more later) who also have horrible terrible (and again often hilarious, because this is Voltaire) things happen to them. And a couple of times Candide goes about trying to prove that someone in the world is happy -- but is always shown to be wrong. The idea is that this our most well-documented of all possible worlds (as John M. Ford once riffed on it, which I think is a hilariously brilliant way of putting it) could not possibly be the best of all possible worlds given that a) all these terrible things are happening, and b) they're happening to pretty much everyone; there is no one who is portrayed as happy in the book until the last chapter (with one notable exception which I will discuss).

Honestly, I felt like the strength of his arguments varied greatly. First, there seemed to be a lot of emphasis on Leibniz being disproved by terrible things happening to an individual person. I'd always conceived of "best of all possible worlds" to be a global condition rather than a local one: that is, one could certainly easily conceive of worlds where a particular person, or collection of people, had a better life than in this one, and my understanding of Leibniz's idea (which might be wrong?) is that it refers to everyone as a whole -- whatever that means (I haven't read Leibniz source; does he quantify happiness or utility of a world in a not-totally-undefined way?) -- that although at any particular moment a person or group of people might be unhappy, as a whole this is the best for humanity. Also that there might be constraints on what worlds are possible, e.g., if there hadn't been a horribly destructive earthquake at this time (one of the events in Candide, following real life), perhaps there would have been an even worse one. Or something. (I freely admit that I'm very influenced here by my religion having basically this as its theology, so I may be projecting the arguments.)

Though one could argue that if everyone is unhappy (which as becomes more and more clear in the book is pretty much the case), then it couldn't possibly be the best of all possible worlds just because this seems unlikely to be it in absolute terms. But this doesn't seem to be the primary argument Voltaire is making, as far as I could tell (though it could very well be a secondary argument). I do think that he's saying that it is pretty easy to postulate a universe where, e.g., soldiers didn't rape Cunegonde; that universe would clearly be better than the book-canon universe where she was.

Speaking of which, Voltaire also makes a more explicit argument from counterexample: that this is not the best of all possible worlds because he can construct a much better possible world that isn't this one. In the middle of the book Candide and his servant Cacambo somehow find themselves in the hidden-away and fabled land of El Dorado, which is a utopia where everyone is happy, there is lots of SCIENCE!, there is no war or crime or poverty (how this is attained isn't entirely clear, though Voltaire seems to tie it at least partially to the lack of organized religion), and no one cares about money, though their pebbles are precious stones and their mud is (literally) gold. Also, "Cacambo explained the king's witty sayings to Candide, and even when translated they still seemed witty. Of all the things which astonished Candide, this was not, in his eyes, the least astonishing." LOL. I wonder if this king writes poems that are actually good :PP

Candide and Cacambo decide to leave El Dorado in a stunningly stupid move (so Candide can find Cunegonde, whom he's been separated from) and take a bunch of gold and gems with them, which certainly make their life reasonably easier for the rest of the book, although Candide keeps losing money through various acts of stupidity (by him) and swindling (by others). Cacambo is dispatched to find Cunegonde, and Candide takes up with Martin the Manichee (whose name has come up before in salon). Manichaeism is the belief that there's evil as a tangible power in the world in addition to good/God (as opposed to the belief that an all-good God is the source of everything). Where Martin is concerned, this manifests in him being basically a raging pessimist, and whenever Candide goes around thinking that he's found a happy person or a happy way of life, Martin is like "I bet no." (He is always right.)

At the end of the book, Candide finally finds Cunegonde (whom he's been searching for during most of the book), only to find that, horrors, during the course of her misfortunes she has become ugly. But he marries her anyway, because he feels obligated to. He's also run out of money by this time, and he ends up on a farm with a bunch of random people from the book, some of whom have shown up again after some time (including Pangloss, who seems to have died twice during the book, but both times his death was greatly exaggerated). They're all quarreling and terribly unhappy!! Until... on the last page, they meet a man who is actually happy (the first non-ElDoradoean in the entire book!), because he cultivates his small garden with his family. In the last few paragraphs Candide and the other characters decide to also cultivate their garden, and become what, if Voltaire were in fandom, I'd call a nice little found family :) (Whether this is a lasting happiness is left to the reader, and it does seem rather unlikely, though I like to imagine that they're all so tired of adventures at this point that they do keep going like that.)

~~next step: gonna go watch the Bernstein musical~~

Thank you so much! Can I just say again how lucky I feel to be in a fandom where people read me books. :D

My own reading rn consists of finishing the chapter of Horowski I'm on tonight, and the book by the end of the month. I was planning to reply to Fritz's mystery affliction today, but...I'm on a roll. :) In the meantime, just assume I'm following all salon developments eagerly, even when not replying.

Yay, you finished! Do tell when you get to the Bernstein musical, I've never seen it in its entirety, only in excerpts. Re: Leipniz' original argument and Voltaire's issue with it in context of the contemporary debate, this wiki article sums it up pretty well from what I recall - the various Émilie books I read in the past months also touched on it, but they're back in the Stabi library, so I can't look it up again.

Also, "Cacambo explained the king's witty sayings to Candide, and even when translated they still seemed witty. Of all the things which astonished Candide, this was not, in his eyes, the least astonishing." LOL. I wonder if this king writes poems that are actually good :PP

LOL. Maybe that's the true issue Fritz had with Candide, about which he once complained to Catt as I recall.

On the occasion of Heinrich's birthday, have a Lehndorff description of how he celebrated Heinrich turning 30 on 18th January 1756. Bear in mind that Lehndorff actually has fallen in love with Charles Hotham at this point and is making emigration plans. He's in as serious a state about leaving Heinrich as he'll ever get. The Duc de Nivernais was the unfortunate guy who had the job to negotiate the continuation of the France/Prussia Treaty when the news of the Prussia/England treaty were about to break.

18th January. Morning with the King. Then I present my congratulations to Prince Heinrich who receives me very amiably. I lunch in small company with the Duc de Nivernais with whose manners I am delighted. After the reception at the Queen's, I accompangny Prince Heinrich to Countess Monroy and introduce him as my cousin. The ruse works perfectly well since the Prince has put on a different outfit, we arrived in a hired carriage, and didn't fall out of character. Afterwards the Prince comes to me and I present him with a small party. At first, I let him enter a darkened room, where he finds the following words written at the wall with phosphorus: "The most worthy of mortals shall await the God's messenger here!"
A moment later, a man disguised as Mercury enters and gives him a letter from the assembly of gods, where it's said that the entire Olympus has been busy selecting presents worthy of him: Jupiter and his brothers had wanted to turn over the rulership of their realms to him, but after a vote Jupiter had decided that the Prince could not abandon his current position where he's crucial for the happiness of mankind and thus indispensable to it. Mars and Apollo had wanted to give him their courage and their mind, but Minerva then humiliated them by proving to them that the Prince surpasses them in both by far. At last, the noble assembly was much embarrassed at finding a worthy present, until Venus freed them through the suggestion to send him letters by his grandmother, Queen Sophie, whose worthy heir he was. At the same time, Mercury gave him letters from this Queen which I had received from Fräulein v. Fuchs. While the Prince reads them now, I change into evening wear and present my congratulations for the day. Then we dine in high spirits.

Awwww. ... that's all I have really. :D

(No, wait. The "Heinrich as Sophie's worthy heir" is rather interesting, and the fact that old family letters as a present are a thing. And I love the phosphorus detail. Not gonna go into the Gods' thoughts as foreshadowing, though. ;P)

It says something about the standing Sophie (Charlotte) had in popular Prussian imagination half a century after her death,, doesn’t it? And/Or it could be that Heinrich was particularly interested in her and Lehndorff, as his friend, knew that. Much later historians credit her with bringing the intellectual/artistic streak into the Hohenzollern - of which Fritz and several of his siblings are an example - but this is just fifty years later, when some who knew her are still alive. (And if she hadn’t died while still in her 30s, even more people knowing her would be.)

Given that I read Barbara Beuys’ biography last year, I’m also curious as to what this says about how SC was seen by her son. Older biographers were sure he must have loathed her (female intellectual, wanted to turn Berlin into Athens, ~~made FW dance ballet~~), but Beuys quotes several highly affectionate letters between mother and son, and points out he went painting hunting for her in The Hague when he was there because he knew she’d like it. And of course FW was sentimental for a prince about family relationships (with his idea of living the middle class family life) and super respectful to his parents both. So how did he talk about her to his children, if he did at all?

Back to SC’s high standing in 1750s Prussia (that Lehndorff could find preserved letters from her is telling by itself): this is also why it so surprised me when reading in Hervey’s memoirs that Queen Caroline, who had been raised by her for some years, referred to her as a “shallow, silly woman”. Ouch. (Then again, Caroline is the woman who according to Hervey repeatedly described her oldest son as only worthy of death, the worst of the worst, etc., etc.)

Phosphorus: my own question is - did he get that out of the tapestry again afterwards or did his apartment still have that inscription when he got married a few years later?

Happy birthday, Heinrich!

So how did he talk about her to his children, if he did at all?

That's a really interesting question! You're right that he was super into the idea of a close-knit, loving family. And also she's been dead for decades, which makes it even easier to glorify her memory. Hmm! I guess Stratemann doesn't say anything on the matter? It's the kind of thing he'd be likely to report.

did he get that out of the tapestry again afterwards or did his apartment still have that inscription when he got married a few years later?

Ha! Good question. Man, these wives put up with a lot, didn't they?

Yes, Stratemann would be just the type to get misty-eyed about the King reminiscencing about his late mother, yet I don't recall him ever recording anything of the sort.

Man, these wives put up with a lot, didn't they?

They did indeed. Incidentally, it's of course also interesting and telling that Heinrich chooses to spend so much of his thirtieth birthday not with his boyfriend du jour (Kalckreuth, whom he had only just fallen for), or even with beloved brothers AW and Ferdinand, but with Lehndorff. (Spending the day with Mina is of course out of the question.)

did he get that out of the tapestry again afterwards or did his apartment still have that inscription when he got married a few years later?

Uh... I was tempted. Have another silly comic.

images

“It has no deeper meaning. Very practical when you want a midnight snack without lighting a candle though.”

OMG, I’m in stitches on the floor. This is the perfect conclusion to Heinrich’s birthday, verily. ❤️👍🥳

OMGGGGG this is AMAAAAAAAZING!

I saw this come in when I was out taking a walk and now I'm home and I'm stiiillll laughing so hard, you have no idea. Omg, you are a genius.

:DDDD

omg I LOVE THIS, this is AWESOME lolololol. :D Poor Marie!

If this is Lehndorff in his "I'm gonna leave"-mode, I wonder what he was capable of in full "Prince Heinrich is the center of the world"-mode :'D

I have a WIP for you for this special occasion! I would have liked to finish it, but I have to wait for the paint to dry for the finishing details (the transparent jabot-thing) and the important parts are done anyway and it's his birthday ... so without further ado: Heinrich's portrait for my wall!

images

and the corresponding tumblr post on my newly (re-)established art blog ^^

This thing was done in oil paint and I still like it SO much better than acrylic, it's incredible. I'm rather satisfied with the hair, not quite as satisfied with the skin tone (mixing colours from scratch is not my forte, so it turned out rather pink...). Overall it's not as bad as others, I'm definitely improving my painting skills :D They still don't match my drawing skills, so Wilhelmine will remain the prettiest person on my wall for quite a while, but the birthday boy has definitely surpassed poor Fredersdorf :'D

P.S.: I spotted

mildred_of_midgard 's Fanart post in Rheinsberg only fairly recently and I didn't get to thank you for that yet, so consider this my humble thanks to you :D I will get back to the list eventually! Possibly after repainting poor Fredersdorf. He's hanging right next to my computer and keeps looking at me with his sad, sad eyes.

Lehndorff and I heartily approve of this beautiful painting of the worthiest of mortals. :) Seriously though, I continue to be in awe of how your paintings manage to capture something of the person. (And in this case do justice to the amazing punk wig, too!

If this is Lehndorff in his "I'm gonna leave"-mode, I wonder what he was capable of in full "Prince Heinrich is the center of the world"-mode :'D

Well, hiding from his carriage lest his heart would burst at the sight of Heinrich leaving Berlin, for starters, see the entries for the early May days of 1753. :) Lehndorff's diary entry for Heinrich's 1753 birthday went: January 18th: As this is the Prince's birthday, the court of the Queen Mother's is assembled in full. I am convinced that as many have good wishes for the prince as those wearing clothing on their skin. For to know him is to love him. I seek out my dear H., embrace him tenderly and await with impatience the next opportunity to be alone with him. (...) I feel something for him I haven't felt for anyone else. Sometimes I wish he was poor, so I could give him everything I have; at other times, I would be ready to do the most humble service if only that meant I could be always with him.

Author of "Prince Heinrich's development as a military leader" dissertation, in a disapproving footnote: "Eva Ziebura is totally misunderstanding the emo tone of the era when ascribing gayness to Heinrich or his entourage in her biography. Take Lehndorff. He was just that enthusiastic a courtier, okay!"

<3 Lehndorff. Don't forget the whole height of pleasure!

Why am I not surprised it was a military history work. The cult of manly chaste Prussians continues, I see.

(Also, if I were a total homophobe, I could just about see saying Lehndorff as a courtier is just that taken with his prince. But what about Hotham? What other than romantic love would lead Lehndorff to think about leaving his prince and emigrating to another country with someone he just met but has been expressing passionate declarations of love for? This is not rational courtier behavior! This is not going to move him up the social ladder!)

The Polterabend is of course its own special entry. (And unsurprisingly only shows up in volume 2 despite being a December 1752 entry.)

Well, in fairness to military historians, there's also non-military Charlotte Pangels who was the first 20th century author I came across to insist that not just Fritz but also Heinrich were straight (and that Lehndorff was just an enthusiastic yenta shipping Heinrich with Bentinck while being in love with Amalie himself).

But what about Hotham? What other than romantic love would lead Lehndorff to think about leaving his prince and emigrating to another country with someone he just met but has been expressing passionate declarations of love for?

Job frustration and enthusiasm for the English way of life? I'm just guessing, btw, the dissertation writer didn't bother with Lehndorff more than in that footnote. But, you know, anyone who can describe the state of Heinrich's marriage in January 1759 with "it can't be denied that the spouses were no longer as close" has their perspective of human relationships so irrevocably fixed that it can't be helped....

Zomg! A painting of Heinrich for his birthday! I'm still so in awe of your talent, I will never stop saying that. Wow, that wig, lol. You clearly have the best-decorated apartment walls in all the land!

Lol at poor Fredersdorf. Practice makes perfect, I guess. I indeed endorse you fixing Fredersdorf so he can stop being sad, haha. :'D Poor Fredersdorf.

I spotted [personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 's Fanart post in Rheinsberg only fairly recently and I didn't get to thank you for that yet, so consider this my humble thanks to you :D

Consider the post my/our humble thanks to you! You create all the art; all I do is catalog it. <3

awwwww this is awesome :D Yay Henri! I love it all, but the hair is quite excellent :D

Mostly caught up on existing threads, slowly chipping away at my backlog of things I ran across in my reading during Yuletide.

So we've talked about how the switch from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar happened gradually in Europe, meaning different countries were on different calendars at the same time. Catholic countries switched first, than gradually Protestant, and eventually Eastern Orthodox (Russia not until the Russian Revolution). So different dates are given for different events depending on who's reporting them, and if your event took place around the beginning of the year, you'll have different years, and don't even get me started on having March 25 as the first day of your new year.

But I thought I was on top of this, confusing as it is, until I learned in November that Sweden decided to make things extra complicated! From Henrik Lunde's A Warrior Dynasty: The Rise and Decline of Sweden as a Military Superpower:

Sweden did not begin making the change to the Gregorian calendar until 1700 and, to make matters worse, it was done in a confusing and halting manner. The Swedish calendar was therefore out of step with both calendars for forty years. The common rule that you add 10 days [Mildred's comment: note that it's 10 days in the 17th century, 11 in the 18th, 12 in the 19th, and 13 in the 20th.] that to the Julian calendar to arrive at the Gregorian date is therefore not applicable in the case of Sweden during the period 1700–1740.

How have other authors handled this problem? Swedish sources and some English sources, such as Michael Roberts, use the Julian calendar. Most make no mention of it and one therefore doesn’t know which calendar they are using. Both Robert I. Frost and Ragnhild Hatton address this problem in their books. Frost tried to use the Gregorian calendar (New Style or NS) but admits that there probably are mistakes.

Hatton, in her note at the end of her preface, has this to say:

But in 1700 Sweden opted for a modified form of the Julian calendar in the hope of a gradual progress to the Gregorian one: they dropped leap-year of that year and thus remained ten days behind N.S. but at the same time one day ahead of O.S. [Old Style]. [end Hatton quote]

To make this confusing situation even more bewildering, in 1712 Karl XII decided that the system in place gave the Swedes the worst of both worlds and switched back to the Julian calendar.

While I have tried to use the Gregorian calendar wherever I knew which calendar was used by my source, there will no doubt be numerous inconsistencies since most of the sources did not specify which calendar they used. After spending a long time trying to figure out how to handle a problem that two eminent professors had so much difficulty with, I decided to change dates when I knew they needed to be changed but to leave them as found in whatever source I was using when I was not sure.

Good grief! Swedes, why?

So I missed the word "military" in the title of the book, and my takeaway from this writeup was, "Swedes, I can totally see why you declined as a superpower!! Because NO ONE COULD FIGURE OUT WHEN ANYTHING WAS!"

I think that still works! Gotta know what day the invasion is scheduled for, after all. ;)

Also, Sweden's decline was during the first decades of the 18th century, i.e. immediately after they switched to a weird calendar in 1700. CLEARLY related. :P

Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

no subject

Collaboration

Re: Collaboration

Let's kill Fritz! aka the salon hive mind

Re: Let's kill Fritz! aka the salon hive mind

Re: Let's kill Fritz! aka the salon hive mind

Re: Let's kill Fritz! aka the salon hive mind

Re: Let's kill Fritz! aka the salon hive mind

Poached Eggs and Boiled Frogs

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Re: Poached Eggs and Boiled Frogs

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Re: Poached Eggs and Boiled Frogs

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Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small

Re: Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small

Re: Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small

Re: Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small, and Lehndorff&Amalie

Re: Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small, and Lehndorff&Amalie

Re: Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small, and Lehndorff&Amalie

The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet

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Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

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Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Fritz, FW2, and A Christmas Carol

Re: Fritz, FW2, and A Christmas Carol

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

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Welcome, sub_divided!

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Re: Welcome, sub_divided!

Re: Welcome, sub_divided!

You should see me an a crown

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Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (A)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (A)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (A)

Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (B)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (B)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (B)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (B)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (B)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (B)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (B)

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: A Miniseries in six parts (B)

Lehndorff readalong redux

Re: Lehndorff readalong redux - 1753 15th June to 22 June

Re: Lehndorff readalong redux - 1753 15th June to 22 June

Re: Lehndorff readalong redux - 1753 15th June to 22 June

Re: Lehndorff readalong redux

Re: Lehndorff readalong redux

Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: PICSPAM

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: PICSPAM

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: PICSPAM