Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

[cahn]

We have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!

...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D

Comments

The STD thread

[mildred_of_midgard]

STDs, here we come!

From our email discussion:

mildred_of_midgard: Btw, something that's been on my Trello list of things to talk about for a while now is that, for all the discussion we've had about Zimmerman and the STD, I don't think we've ever brought up the fact that the "STD treated badly -> (perceived) impotence" theory is in Voltaire's memoirs as well. This doesn't make the story more reliable, far from it, it just makes me wonder...who did this rumor originate with, and how many contemporaries knew about it (presumably everyone who read Voltaire's memoirs!), and of them, how many bought into it?

The other interesting part is that Zimmerman is using the penis theory to explain why Fritz the EXTREMELY NOT GAY NOT AT ALL was not sleeping with women, whereas Voltaire was going for "Fritz the Potsdamite had to bottom for other guys, ha!"

cahn: mildred, this is in Voltaire's memoirs?? and you never told me??

mildred_of_midgard: Well, the thing is, I did, but so long ago it was before we'd encountered Zimmermann. It was one of the first things I told you about (give me some credit! I am a good gossipy sensationalist! :P). But then by the time Zimmermann came along, I'd forgotten it was in Voltaire, and then when I remembered, we had entered the very recent Age of Limited Computer Time.

The other interesting thing to note is that it's *not* in the anonymous pamphlet, suggesting that if this rumor existed in 1752, it hadn't yet reached Voltaire.

selenak: I have a theory about that, but we should discuss it in public so others can learn from our wise words :-)

mildred_of_midgard: Here's the Voltare quote:

As soon as his Majesty was dressed and booted, Stoicism for a few moments gave way to Epicurism. Two or three of his favorites entered: these were either Lieutenants, Ensigns, Pages, Heiduqes, or young Cadets. Coffee was brought in, and he to whom the handkerchief was thrown, remained ten minutes tête-à-tête with his Majesty. Things were not carried to the last extremity, because while Prince, in his father's life-time, he had been very ill treated, and ill cured, in his amours de passade. He could not play principal, and was obliged to content himself with the second.

Take it away, selenak!

Re: The STD thread

[selenak]

Okay, my speculation(s) as to why this is in Voltaire's memoirs but not yet in the 1752 anonymous pamphlet. Aren't mutually exclusive but don't have to be true all at once.

1.) Difference in circumstance of writing. Voltaire wrote the pamphlet as part of his escalating pamphlet war with Fritz, but the book burning and the Frankfurt arrest had not happened yet, so he wasn't yet ready to go fully scorched earth. The memoirs he knew would get published once he was dead, so no problem there. This speculation assumes that the rumor already existed in 1752. However, it could also be that:

2.) There was no rumor, but Voltaire had several decades to think of something even more schoolboy taunt than "totally gay", to wit "gay but unable to penetrate because of badly treated STD! Totally bottoming!" for the memoirs, whereas in 1752 he was in something of a hurry.

3.) Difference in circumstance for Fritz. By 1752, it was very clear to all and sunder that his married life was non-existent, and that any favourites of his were more likely to be of the male persuasion. However not exclusively so: the grand finale of the Barbarina saga wasn't that long ago, and if I was a contemporary with limited-by-rumor-and-some-pamphlets access to information, you bet I'd have assumed the King and the ballerina he was willing to pay that much money for and threw such a fit about (twice) had had a sexual affair. And even better informed circles - like, say, all those ambassadors paying for information - in their reports mentioning handsome men (whether Fredersdorf or the odd husar) - definitely don't consider Fritz wa keeping those guys just to look at. Consider, too, that Fritz wasn't yet living the full hermit life he would post 7 Years War. He'd dumped most of the court obligations on EC and his brothers, but he did participate in the carnival each year, and on some other occasions, too. He wasn't yet seen as completely different from all the other monarchs. And the default assumption for an 18th century monarch is that they have a lot of sex. Then there's the fact that 1752 Fritz is still basking in the Undefeated Conqueror image of Militant Masculinity. So, gossip mongers weren't likely to hit on the idea that he had sex problems resulting in either bottoming or impotence.
However, by the 1770s or whenever Voltaire was writing his Fritzian memoirs (I like to think he kept going back to the manuscript and adding another dig through the decades), things were different. No more ballerinas (with favoured singers like Schmeling Mara, no one assumed Fritz was interested in her romantically at all), and not really male favourites to gossip about, either. Fritz had aged before his time through the war and was hardly seen in public anymore at all, save for the military revues and the occasional guest of state. And while he was admired as the genius who fought all of Europe to a stand still for seven years, the perception of him as invulnerable was gone. All this makes gossip of him bottoming and/or having long term STD caused problems far more easy to buy in the public perception.

4.) Dark horse possibility: not only was there a rumor but it was based on some factual stuff, but Voltaire didn't learn about it while he was still in Prussia. Because while he was still in Prussia, possible sources weren't suicidal, knowing Voltaire could just as well turn on them and either by intent or carelessness let the King know what they said. Now you'd think once he's settled down in Geneva, he'd have had less, not more access to spicy Prussian court gossip. HOWEVER. There's Doctor Theodore Tronchin. Who was treating Voltaire in Geneva while also making trips to Prussia. Which he even did during the war. He was the one to certify Ferdinand as REALLY REALLY ILL. I.e. he did treat members of the royal family (don't know whether he ever treated Fritz personally, but it's not impossible), and presumably hung out with what doctors were there when visiting Berlin. And in terms of his ethics, Tronchin is the one providing a lot of gossip about Voltaire's final weeks of life, of which he only witnessed a bit. So I wouldn't put it beyond him to have shared such a story with Voltaire, had he come across it one way or the other.

ETA: Almost forgot this: what also might factor in Voltaire either inventing or spreading the rumor: Fritz himself evidently thought it was the height of hilarity to accuse someone of having STD. Not just young Marwitz, but Louis XV. in one of the satiric poems Voltaire absconded with that got him arrested in Frankfurt. I also seem to recall (maybe wrongly?) he mentioned Algarotti having some problems in this regard to someone else? And even the censored Volz translated version of the Palladion has some STD jokes. So: maybe Voltaire thought turnabout was just fair game?

Not his type?

[selenak]

From the last post:

1.) mildred_of_midgard: I have never been convinced Heinrich was into being dominated.

I like your alternate suggestion from several posts ago that he might have enjoyed being made to work like no one's business for domination but in the end succeeding. Anyway, the domination theory, I suspect, happens because biographers throw their hands up along with Lehndorff when looking at most of Heinrich's guys and wonder out loud "but what does he see in them?"

2.) mildred_of_midgard: Hypothesis: Heinrich consistently started relationships with guys in their early 20s, whether he was 19 or 60. Counterevidence, selenak? I don't know all his boyfriends' birthdates, nor do I know when all the relationships started.

No, it fits. Doesn't mean he trades them in once they're closer to 30 - the relationship with Kaphengst lasted at the very least 15 years, possibly longer depending on where we assume the end point (not that easy to say because as opposed to Kalckreuth, Kaphengst doesn't get cut off but fades into the periphery of Heinrich's circle after those 15 years, but you're right, the beginning of the relationship, no matter whether Heinrich is young or old himself, is when they're in their early 20s.

It's also worth pointing out that post-Marwitz, he seems to have made a point of not being monogamous. Because there's always overlap. When Lehndorff goes from friend to friend with benefits, the official favourite is actually Reisewitz, and Reisewitz hangs on until the 7 Years War in terms of being in Heinrich's circle, through the entire Lamberg as favourite and into the Kalckreuth as favourite era. And of course Kalckreuth and Kaphengst overlap post war until the big drama. While Kaphengst clearly is the favourite Heinrich went to the greatest financial lengths for, he wasn't exclusive, as evidenced by the fact Mara happened during the Kaphengst era as well. Now of course we don't know that he had sex with all of them, let alone at the same time. Maybe he really wanted nothing more from Mara than music. But emotionally, these were certainly romances, and unlike Fritz, Heinrich was never suspected of living celibate.

Going back to my observation that Heinrich as opposed to Fritz wasn't interested in an erastes figure when young, of course we have not nearly as much data about him as we have of young Fritz. Maybe he did have someone like that in his life and we just don't know because no envoy was interested in the thirteenth child and Heinrich didn't keep many letters. For example: Ziebura in two of her biographies includes the assurance that the princes (all three younger princes) liked their gay steward (the one AW wrote that raunchy letter to from Spandau) and that there's no indication he was in any way inappropriate to them. (That is, inappropriate by our standards - FW presumably would have freaked out if he'd known that the guy who was supposed to keep his sons from "silent sins" and evil talk instead raised them in a way that made them feel comfortable with sex jokes and see nothing wrong with the gay variation of same.) However, if teenage Heinrich did feel the need for a gay mentor or for an older man to crush on, this guy would have been an obvious choice.

But that's all speculation. And with the qualification of "going by all the relationships we do know about" Heinrich had a sexual type, and that type was young, handsome, in his early 20s, energetic, charming and none too reliable.

Re: The STD thread

[iberiandoctor]

LOL, I came here to see if there was an update on the Marwitz STD situation; imagine my (non) surprise to find a discussion of STDs For Everyone :) It's actually pretty charming! (Also, there is a Fritz/Fredersdorf fic in the RMSE collection, which I took the liberty of shaking. Yay ;))

Re: The STD thread

[mildred_of_midgard]

2) There was no rumor, but Voltaire had several decades to think of something even more schoolboy taunt than "totally gay", to wit "gay but unable to penetrate because of badly treated STD! Totally bottoming!" for the memoirs, whereas in 1752 he was in something of a hurry.

If true, this would mean that Zimmermann got the idea from Voltaire's memoirs and then elaborated on it so as to make his hero EXTREMELY STRAIGHT. Which would be an interesting and unforeseen-by-Voltaire consequence of his rumor. :D

not only was there a rumor but it was based on some factual stuff

How much of it do you think is plausible? Serious question. On balance, I do think Fritz exchanged fluids at least a few times in his youth, and, as they say, it only takes once. Also, wait, I'd forgotten--didn't Münchow fils say he was treated for something in the field in the 1740s that confirmed he was still sexually active? Oh, right, Münchow was taking issue with Zimmermann's claim.

Well, the one thing Münchow and Zimmermann have in common is that they both think Fritz was treated for an STD, they just differ on which decade it happened in, and whether Fritz continued to be sexually active after 1740.

So yeah, maybe he had an STD. (Though what we have is 3 extremely unreliable sources.)

I also seem to recall (maybe wrongly?) he mentioned Algarotti having some problems in this regard to someone else?

Nope, you remember correctly! In this fandom, you either have an STD or you're accused of having one. What was Lehndorff's source on Kaphengst, anyway? :P

Re: Not his type?

[mildred_of_midgard]

Briefly...

I like your alternate suggestion from several posts ago that he might have enjoyed being made to work like no one's business for domination but in the end succeeding.

That's one of the possibilities I see. I have another, more boring and kink-free theory after having read Ziebura. Heinrich was a helper in a way that could be healthy--he liked taking young people under his wing and funding their educations and such--and could turn into trying to fix people who didn't want to be fixed. And it's possible that, when combined with a partner with a charismatic personality and possibly good sex, the more dysfunctional a relationship was, the more energy Heinrich tried to invest in helping the young man live up to his potential. It's the old "I can change him!" story.

It's often the case that the people you love the most are not the ones who've done the most for you, but the ones you've done the most for. There's also the sunk costs fallacy: the more you've invested in something, the more compelled you feel to keep investing, to justify your past investment, in hopes of getting an eventual payoff, instead of cutting your losses.

More dysfunctional than kinky, imo. But that's not to say that Heinrich might not also have been a pushy bottom in bed! Kinks can be independent of any other aspect of your life. And regardless, fiction can do whatever fiction wants, and Heinrich either as bottom or someone who works like nobody's business to finally win is a great dynamic. :D

Doesn't mean he trades them in once they're closer to 30

Yup, that's why I was careful to say "started relationships" and say that it was not only his sexual attraction to this particular age that mattered--the relationships clearly gathered momentum as they went on.

Heinrich not having an erastes: I was thinking exactly that, both that we have much less data and that he had that gay steward.

Heinrich had a sexual type, and that type was young, handsome, in his early 20s, energetic, charming and none too reliable.

Yep.

Re: The STD thread

[selenak]

If true, this would mean that Zimmermann got the idea from Voltaire's memoirs and then elaborated on it so as to make his hero EXTREMELY STRAIGHT. Which would be an interesting and unforeseen-by-Voltaire consequence of his rumor.

Quite, but then, Voltaire the historiographer who'd no sooner finished his age-of-Louis-XV that a competitor published (faked) memoirs of Madame de Maintenon, and Voltaire the inexhaustible embroiderer and inventor of yet more drama (FW present at Katte's execution! Wilhelmine flying through the window!) would probably not have been surprised by anything. And he must have come across any type of Fritz fan in his time, including Zimmerman's "he is so STRAIGHT!" type.

On balance, I do think Fritz exchanged fluids at least a few times in his youth, and, as they say, it only takes once.

Given how quickly he jumps on the chance to accuse other people of STD, I'd say it's possible, and I even buy that he asked one of the Schwedt cousins for a doctor, because they're an obvious choice. Just not that it traumatized him into becoming celibate.

Well, the one thing Münchow and Zimmermann have in common is that they both think Fritz was treated for an STD, they just differ on which decade it happened in, and whether Fritz continued to be sexually active after 1740.

Nope, Zimmerman puts the last year of Fritian sexual activity as 1735. (Remember, two years of married bliss with EC and then returning STD in Zimmerman's version!) Whereas Münchow calls bullshit on this based on two reasons: a) personal observation as Fritz' page in 1738 in that if you sleep next door to someone's bedroom, you hear stuff ("not the evening prayers"), and b) seeing something only he and a sworn-to-silence person in the early 1740s were witness to when Fritz was in the field. The later let us conclude he probably meant an army surgeon treating Fritz for STD, but Münchow Fils does not actually say so - he just says "me and one more person who was sworn to silence and never said anything witnessed something".

In this fandom, you either have an STD or you're accused of having one. What was Lehndorff's source on Kaphengst, anyway? :P

If I recall correctly - and I can't look it up, because it's in volume IV, which I read at the Stabi in March just before the lockdown - it was Ludwig Wreech (member of Heinrich's household - I think he was a Haushofmeister - and yes, son of the lady Fritz wrote poems to). Who told it to Lehndorff as an explanation as to why Kaphengst remained behind on this particular trip, complete with saying he caught the disease from one of the actors in Heinrich's theatre group.

Re: Not his type?

[selenak]

It's often the case that the people you love the most are not the ones who've done the most for you, but the ones you've done the most for.

Point very much taken, and very plausible indeed.

Now of course I have to ask: do you think Fritz had a type? Given we have much more data, but also that the more steady boyfriends richly varied in personality, on a scale from Peter Keith to Voltaire?

Re: The STD thread

[cahn]

LOLOLOLOL, I don't think I said, that Voltaire quote is awesome!

Replies to <lj user="Cahn"> from the last post

[selenak]

although lol to the "sentimental era"

"Look, it's just Rococo emo"! is just such a handy excuse. :) Mind you, 18th century rethoric is way more emotional, and such things like bursting into tears haven't yet been coded as "feminine" or "unmanly". And if you read 18th century novels, the emo-ness is undeniable. But even so:

How could they miss the biggest thing in Lehndorff's life??

Well, for starters, they have only read the first volume as reprinted in 2007, not the others, which means they're missing out on even more Heinrich related entries in Volumes 2, 3 and 4. And secondly: I suspect that your avarage reviewer when first reading the Best of Lehndorff volume without any previous knowledge about who this guy might be looks first and foremost at stories about Fritz. Secondly about good war descriptions. Because your avarage reviewer will be going "Heinrich who?" and at best be vaguely aware there were siblings other than Wilhelmine; there will be no interest in Heinrich, and thus probably a lot of skipping while looking for Fritz stories.


This makes me feel even more: why would anyone write her about Fritz and AW reconciling :P

Cynically: Given how ultra embarassing the AW/Fritz fallout was for the later Hohenzollern - on the one hand, everyone of them is descended from AW, otoh, Fritz is the big national hero from whom they draw their claim to fame and throne - leading to basically the lot pretending to have been descended from Old Fritz, I wouldn't be surprised if some nineteenth century editor wanted to carry favour with the ruling dynasty by ineventing such a tale.

This said, I do think it's likely some courtier who know Sophie still felt strongly about AW wrote to her about his death and made it sound better than it was. But a story about Fritz writing a tender and concerned letter before his death is way too easily disapprovable if you're doing it as a contemporary who has to count on the fact Sophie could simply ask Amalie to read this letter, or something similar.

Re: The STD thread

[cahn]

Voltaire had several decades to think of something even more schoolboy taunt than "totally gay", to wit "gay but unable to penetrate because of badly treated STD! Totally bottoming!" for the memoirs, whereas in 1752 he was in something of a hurry.

This is totally the winner :PP :D Although I guess also

what also might factor in Voltaire either inventing or spreading the rumor: Fritz himself evidently thought it was the height of hilarity to accuse someone of having STD... maybe Voltaire thought turnabout was just fair game?

is in the running for most awesome explanation :) Maybe it was just... what... snarky people did back then? accuse people of having STDs, just for fun??

Re: The STD thread

[cahn]

I know right???? Every time I think the two of them are done with the gossipy sensationalism, there is More! :D

Is the Fritz/Fredersdorf fic for you?? :D

Re: Not his type?

[cahn]

because biographers throw their hands up along with Lehndorff when looking at most of Heinrich's guys and wonder out loud "but what does he see in them?"

I mean. The cello is a pretty sexy instrument :P (although I guess it's more sexy once Romanticism happens!)

Re: Not his type?

[cahn]

It's the old "I can change him!" story.

Huh. That... does rather explain a lot.

Re: The STD thread

[iberiandoctor]

Maybe it is! +heart eyed emoji

All About Grandma: Barbara Beuys: Sophie Charlotte

[selenak]

This biography, whose title says "Sophie Charlotte: Preußens erste Königin", is actually more the biography of two women, Sophie of Hannover and her daughter Sophie Charlotte. Partly because Sophie lived a far longer life - including outliving her daughter, who died at only 36 years of age - but also because Sophie left snarky memoirs and lots and lots of letters, whereas many of Sophie Charlotte's personal letters, aside of her correspondance with Leipniz, got disappeared over the years, which means we have a far more detailed picture of the first of the triad whom one historian refered to as "the three great Hannover Sophies" (the third one is of course SD).

Sophie the first was the daughter of Elizabeth Stuart, the Winter Queen, daughter of James VI and I., and the sole reason why a lot of Germans ended up on the throne of England thereafter. I did actually read her memoirs a long time ago, and they are pretty entertaining, because Sophie is evenly sarcastic about the men in her life, including cousin Charles the later II, whom she met when he was penniless and in exile, and it went thusly:

Charles (with fare more finesse, but this is what he meant): I need cash. You're an heiress. How about it, Cousin?
Sophie: Nope. You're nice to flirt with, but no more.
Charles: Okay, but can you at least take a public stroll or two with me? Because then my creditors will be believe we're a match and will prolong my credit.
Sophie:.... I suppose.


She next got seriously entangled with the Hannover brothers. The older, one Georg Wilhelm, showed interest in the cash, the younger, Ernst August, in Sophie herself. Georg Wilhelm when they were already engaged then suddenly had this to say:

GW: Sorry, Soph. I got syphilis and want to spend my remaining years in debauchery in Venice. Would you mind taking my younger brother? I promise I won't screw you over and marry smeone else at the last minute. He'll totally be my heir.

Sophie: Gladly.
EA: *is charming the frst few years, does become the heir, but then* Soph, seeing as we still have Big Bro's former palace in Venice, I think we should use it. And when I say we I mean I. From this moment on, I'll spend five to six months a year debauching myself in Venice. Have fun ruling Hannover in the meantime!

Sophie: Men suck. I've decided to become the matriarch of Europe instead. Starting with co-raising my brother's kid Elisabeth Charlotte, aka Liselotte, whom I'll marry off to the Sun King's brother. I'm the main recipient of all her letters. Also, I'm encouraging the arts and starting a relationship with Leipniz which my daughter will later partake in. My daughter, btw, is also the goddaughter of Liselotte, who refers to her as "mein Patchen" in her letters.

Friedrich the not yet numbered: I'm the third son of the Great Elector of Brandenburg, coming through Hannover with my first beloved wife because Dad married my beastly stepmother and she's been poisoning my other full brothers. Setting a precedent for a crown prince getting out of the country without asking Dad first and on really bad terms with same. Hi, Hannover folk! Can I crash at your place for a while?

Sophie: Sure. Mind supporting my husband's plea with the Emperor to make him Prince Elector instead of just Duke of Hannover?

Friedrich: You're on.

Friedrich: *gets home after his father has given a guarantee he won't get murdered*

Lieselotte: Ma tante, how about you and mein Patchen visit me in France? She's hitting puberty, and I'm thinking...

Sophie: Hannover/France match the second? Maybe the Dauphin for my little Figuelotte (nickname for Sophie Charlotte)? You're on!

Maria Theresa, wife of Louis XIV: *dies*

Sophie: Or I could marry her to the Sun King himself.

Madame de Maintenon: No way. I have first dibs there. Begone, German relations of Madame! You shall never enter Versailles again.

Sophie: Ah well. Hang on, what's this I hear from Brandenburg? Young Friedrich's wife has died? Young Friedrich who still owes me, big time? Your highness, pray visit us again so we can comfort you in your grief. My daughter is now sixteen.

Friedrich: Barbara Beuys likes me way more than my grandson did and writes me as a woobie whose father never truly loved him because of my humpback. I've taken to the Hannover crowd as a replacement family like a duck to water.

Friedrich: *proposes*

Sophie Charlotte: *becomes Mrs. Kurprinz*

Barbara Beuys: Now, I know you heard the tales of how he loved her but she didn't love him and made fun of him, but listen, those are mostly told by the bitchy French ambassador and I don't think they are true. They did, however, have some obstacles at first. Two dead babies in a row, and also when his father died and Friedrich became Prince Elector, his former steward Danckelmann became PM and became the enemy of Sophie Charlotte, fearing she'd push Hannover interests above Prussian ones.

Selenak: I'm having a strange sense of deja vue.

Sophie Charlotte: *gives birth to Tiny Terror FW, who survives unlike the first two babies*

Universal rejoicing: *happens* (Not an emotion FW would evoke much in future years)

Leipniz: Want to become pen pals with me as well, your highness? I'm looking for a second patron and also I dig you, and will forever describe you as both the most beautiful and most smart woman of Europe

Leipniz: has to make two vain attempts before succeeding with his third letter, because Sophie Charlotte is busy changing Berlin into Athens on the Spree

Henritte von Pöllnitz: I'm Sophie Charlotte's right hand woman. I never marry and we're bffs; I write operas and masques for most court celebrations and hire and fire artists. No, Barbara Beuys does not mention how I am related to chatty writer Pöllnitz. But I'm way more discreet. SC tells me everything but I destroy nearly all of her letters after her death.

Peter the not yet Great: I'm making my first undercover visit to Europe at age 25, and spend a nice evening with Sophie, Sophie Charlotte and Henriette von Pöllnitz. They all agree I'm not a barbarian at all.

Sophie Charlotte: Speaking of, good lord. I just visited my kid, and that steward sucks beyond the telling of it. Husband, we need to appoint someone else pronto.

Friedrich: But Danckelmann said...

Sophie Charlotte: Listen, you just asked Mom to support you when you're about to petition the Emperor to make you King in Prussia. I'm just saying.

Friedrich: Danckelmann, you may retire. Sophie Charlotte, appoint whom you see fit. Wartensleben, want to become my new PM?

Wartensleben: Sure thing. How about you make my wife the official mistress?

Friedrich: I actually love my wife.

Wartensleben: You're going to be a King, and every King has a mistress. Trust me on this.

Friedrich: Frau von Wartensleben, you're now my official mistress. We don't need to have sex, do we?

Frau von Wartensleben: As long as your wife receives me in public, and my husband gets lots of cash, I'm fine with anything.

Friedrich: Are you cool with this as well, beloved wife?

Sophie Charlotte: As long as I get all the money I want for project "Make Berlin Athens".

Sophie Charlotte: makes Tiny Terror FW dance ballet at a cour masque; he dances Cupid*

Grandma Sophie: Awwwwww.

Barbara Beuys: Yeah, yeah, I know all the stories about the angry temper tantrums he threw as a child. I'm just saying that Sophie in her letters is totally melting at the adorableness of her grandson. Maybe both was true and he wasn't Tiny Terror all the time but also Little Cherub FW?

Selenak: Or maybe he decided to hate ballet for the rest of his life after having to dance in front of everyone as Cupid.

Sophie Charlotte: I support artists and philosophers like no one's business and gift my son with the new besteller by Fènelon, Telemaque, about how to be a compassionate, art-loving ruler. Mom, I'm totally optimistic about the future here! And moving on with the program "Making my kid love the arts", I'm now having him portrayed as young David. This is my favourite portrait of him:



Barbara Beuys: Nazi era biographer C. Hinrich called my girl Sophie Charlotte a narcissist who only loved her son as an extension of herself, and went on about how lucky he was to develop ethics and moral seriousness anyway, but I say bollocks to this. She did love her son and did her best to shape him into a tolerant, enlightened guy. Not her fault it didn't work out this way. Also the few surviving letters between them are affectionate. Though Grandma Sophie at some point stopped going awwww about her grandson, which is interesting.

Sophie: *to third party* Grandson FW is healthy. His father adores him.

Beuys: Note the "his father". Just a few years earlier, she adored him as well.

Sophie: Incidentally, I had news from England. Since cousin Anne is evidently not going to produce any more living kids, parliament has decided I'm the next Protestant heir. Now I doubt I'll survive her, seeing as I am a generation older, but my son Georg Ludwig is definitely going to be King now. Two of my kids with crowns! I'm so pleased. Granddaughter Sophia Dorothea, that's a goal to aspire to.

Sophie Charlotte: My foster daughter Caroline is about to get married. HabsburgCharles is an option, but you know: not sure becoming a Habsburg is going to make her happy. That family is a) so feudal, and b) so fanatically religious. Look, I'm not a hardcore Protestant; I'd have converted to marry the old Sun King, for example. But all those rosaries and the thought of the inquisition freak me out. Don't do it, Caroline. Take my Hannover nephew instead.

Barbara Beuys: No comment on FW as an option for Caroline from me. If you didn't now already he was, you wouldn't learn it here.

Leipniz: Let me tell you all about why this is a time to be optimistic, your majesty. We live in the best of all possible worlds.

Sophie Charlotte: I agree, but I also feel I have a cold. *coughs*

Sophie Charlotte: *dies after a short illness at age 36*

Friedrich: My heart is broken.

Sophie: Ditto.

Sophie: Though I'm also thinking... how about your son FW marries my boy Georg Ludwig's daughter SD? Then you'd have a Hannover royal at court again!

Friedrich: This is a wonderful idea. Let's do that at once.


Final comment: it's a readable book, but the supposedly central character remains surprisingly opaque, compared with everyone else. Also, while I'm perfectly willing to believe some of the anecdotes presenting Sophie Charlotte as disdainful of her husband aren‘t true, I'd like a reason given why Beuys is suspicious of the envoy report there, say, because "the surviving letters are respectful and affectionate" alone isn't it. I want something like Koser making mince meat out of Henri de Catt, preferably. Anyway: that was the life that was.

Re: Not his type?

[selenak]

Granted. BTW! On the musical side, currently the National Theatre's production of Amadeus is on Youtube for a week.

Re: Not his type?

[cahn]

!!!! Thank you!! I've wanted to see this for SO many years :D

Re: Replies to <lj user="Cahn"> from the last post

[cahn]

haha, okay, that makes sense! I suppose we were only clued into it because we came to it via Ziebura :)

On Fritz and AW: yes on both counts. I can totally see why an invention (or possibly a wishful thinking that got out of hand) might have happened via a nineteenth century editor. And also why would someone at the time make something like that up -- I'm just imagining Sophie going "so Amalie, so glad to hear Fritz sent that nice letter before AW died!" and Amalie breathing fire in response :P

Re: Not his type?

[mildred_of_midgard]

Finally the weekend and I can reply!

Point very much taken, and very plausible indeed.

I like it as an explanation because it fits with the rest of Heinrich's personality, and isn't an ad hoc proposal that runs counter to the rest of his personality. Not to say that just because it fits Occam's Razor it's right, but I find it plausible. The one thing I see in Heinrich's life is a lot of taking responsibility and trying to solve problems even when it was an uphill battle--this is "the fly in the carriage" guy. And with the three most WTF guys, Kalckreuth, Mara, and Kaphengst, it's clear he saw a lot of potential there and wanted them to live up to it.

Now of course I have to ask: do you think Fritz had a type? Given we have much more data, but also that the more steady boyfriends richly varied in personality, on a scale from Peter Keith to Voltaire?

Interesting question! And lol, that's such a great scale.

The first and most obvious thing they all the steady boyfriends we know of had in common was being intellectuals or intellectually inclined. Algarotti and Voltaire are obvious; Peter Keith was a member of and curator at the Academy of Sciences and apparently spent all his time in exile reading books and studying languages; Wilhelmine says even after he joined the army, Katte kept up his studies on his own; Suhm not only translated Wolff for Fritz, but Fritz seems to have seen him as one of his main teachers of philosophy; Fredersdorf, who had the fewest educational opportunities of them all, impressed Lehndorff with how this guy from the back end of Pomerania managed to make up his educational deficiencies with such success.

They definitely ran the gamut of introversion to extraversion. Keith, Suhm, and Fredersdorf I would put more on the introverted side, Katte, Algarotti, and Voltaire on the more charismatic and witty side. Keith is probably on the far end of introversion, and Suhm's and Fredersdorf's job descriptions indicate they were likely to be a little more sociable than Keith.

One thing that comes to mind that they must have had in common, even where we lack direct evidence, is positive reinforcement for Fritz. Hille was saying in 1731 that the way to Fritz's heart was through praise. Catt said the same thing in 17whatever. (He had Fritz say it, but whether Fritz did or not, it's definitely something Catt observed.) So praise, reassurance, and/or kindness. We have evidence for heavy amounts of praise from the correspondence with Voltaire (SO MUCH praise), Algarotti, and Suhm. The thrust of Katte's words is skewed toward criticism by the nature of the evidence, but if you look at his *actions*, the devotion couldn't have been more obvious. Plus we do see from his testimony that he was someone Fritz would come to when he was crying and needed comfort. Keith comes across as just incredibly wholesome, plus his actions (pre 1742) show devotion to Fritz. And even given the way he had to be formal in correspondence, Fredersdorf's actions show devotion, and a certain amount of affection comes through even in the letters. So I have to conclude Fritz liked praise and verbal affection, even if he and Voltaire got addicted to each other's dysfunction.

What I've always found interesting is that the presence of intellect and an interest in book learning (more indirectly in Fredersdorf's case) is mandatory, but music and poetry seem to be optional, with Suhm and Keith as the exceptions. Now, as 18th century nobles, they might have been able to produce a few tunes on an instrument in front of friends, but it doesn't seem to have formed part of their relationship with Fritz, is what I'm saying.

Ages seem to have ranged from significantly older than Fritz to close contemporaries (Keith 8 months older, Algarotti 10 months younger), with the ones younger than Fritz being, as far as I can tell, flirtations/sexual at best (Marwitz, Glasow, possible handsome hussars). This is consistent with most of Fritz's close relationships being with people half a generation to a generation older than he was. Yeah, even George Keith, Earl of Marischal, one of the few friends of Fritz's late years, was a full 20 years older than Fritz. I suppose his readers tended to be younger.

Conventional attractiveness: Yes for Fredersdorf and Algarotti. No for Voltaire and apparently Katte. Unknown for Suhm. Opinions seem to vary on Keith, but the cross-eyedness evidently took some getting used to. (Between not just FW putting it in his wanted description, but both Lehndorff and Formey feeling the need to mention it after his death, and Formey's "it wasn't that bad once you got used to it!", I feel it must have been pretty damn noticeable before you got used to it. Lehndorff's "not as noticeable as in most such cases" notwithstanding--I think Lehndorff got used to it.)

None of them were military men, or not really. Katte and Keith only under duress, and neither distinguished himself. Fredersdorf got out as soon as he had a chance. Keith, the only one with a real service record, seems to have joined the Portuguese army during a time of peace in order to get a paycheck while he stayed in a country where he liked the climate and wanted to study Romance languages. Rejoined the Prussian army only out of peer pressure in 1742, stayed home in 1756, and never got a promotion after Fritz became king, but did get a lot of civilian administrative and logistical responsibilities.

Three of them were foreigners, which is consistent with the resentment at Fritz's court for the preference shown to foreigners. And come to think of it, Katte being well-traveled and cosmopolitan was a major source of Fritz's attraction to him. And Keith, as we've noticed, jumped at the chance to get out of Prussia, even though he hadn't seen Fritz in several months, and there's no evidence he put up resistance beforehand, and he's the first one for whom we have evidence that he was involved in an escape attempt. This leaves Fredersdorf as the exception.

But yeah, I think that's what I've got: kindness/praise (less kindness from Voltaire, but whoa praise), and intellect. Music/art/poetry a major plus but apparently not necessary, at least not when Fritz was younger. Ditto charisma and wit.

Keith and Voltaire were definitely the most different! (Oh, tangentially, I've also now seen that the Academy voted *unanimously* in Maupertuis's favor in the big showdown, so that includes Maupertuis' friend and protégé Peter Keith. :P)

Re: Not his type?

[mildred_of_midgard]

Look at Heinrich taking all those young people under his wing. Look at him giving asylum to the emigrants. Look at him banging his head against FW2 and FW3, apparently incapable of giving up until the last year or two. Look at him being unable to give up command during the Seven Years' War, despite kind of wanting to. Look at him taking responsibility for the treatment of civilians in whatever region he had an army in. This guy was a problem solver, and you could argue that Mara, Kalckreuth, and Kaphengst, and the relationships therewith, were in some ways all problems that needed solving, in Heinrich's mind. The harder the problem, the more his inner terrier kicked in.

I suspect the sex was also fantastic, but I don't think that's the whole story.

Re: Replies to <lj user="Cahn"> from the last post

[mildred_of_midgard]

I suppose we were only clued into it because we came to it via Ziebura :)

Blanning in my case! He's the one who gave us the juicy bits from the first Lehndorff discussion. (He may not be reliable, but if it's gay, he's on it.)

Re: The STD thread

[mildred_of_midgard]

OMG, a Fritzian fic did make it in! I shook it and it even has Suhm as a bonus! Can't wait!! :DDD

*checks dates*

2 more weeks!

Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

[mildred_of_midgard]

From the duo that *always* has more gossipy sensationalism...

I also seem to recall (maybe wrongly?) he mentioned Algarotti having some problems in this regard to someone else?

I dug in more to the question of Algarotti's STD. I started with Blanning, who opens his discussion of the question of Fritz/Algarotti with the claim that in the "Orgasm" poem:

There is nothing...to suggest that Frederick himself was Algarotti’s partner. On the contrary, the passage just quoted is preceded by lines identifying the lover as the nymph “Chloris.”

Which, as I've pointed out, suggests that Professor Blanning of Cambridge University has never heard of a literary trope. But! Blanning continues:

It should also be recorded that, in one letter at least, Frederick appeared to state explicitly that their relationship was not physical. On 29 November 1740 he wrote that he felt as much pleasure at seeing Algarotti again after a long absence as did Medoro when reunited with his beloved Angelica, “the difference being that it is my intellect alone that participates in this pleasure, and that it seeks only to woo yours to warm itself with the fire of your sparkling genius.”

Once upon a time, I read this, and put it down in my mental register as possible evidence for Fritz's low sex drive. Then Blanning continues,

One possible explanation for this reticence, which points the other way, had been signaled in a letter of 24 September in which Frederick referred to Algarotti as an “illustrious invalid of the Empire of love,” wished him a speedy recovery from the “wounds of Cythera” and expressed the hope that he would at least be able to benefit from his intellect when they met at Berlin.

Okay, so Algarotti evidently has an STD, if Fritz, during the peak of their relationship, is wishing him luck with it. But nobody ever accused Algarotti of having a low sex drive. I remind you of my headcanon that Fritz tried it with Algarotti a time or two, and decided he was kind of meh about the act, although he liked flirting.

But, as a good scholar, I am always open to new evidence. And knowing Blanning, I knew that it was necessary to go cross-check his claims in Preuss. (Preuss, as we've seen, isn't 100% reliable either, but all you can do is weigh different pieces of evidence against each other and decide what you believe.)

Now, Preuss doesn't have a September 24 letter, but he does have a letter with the quote Blanning gives. Only he dates it to November 21, i.e. about a week before the "I only care about your intellect" letter.

And Preuss's quote is a little bit different from Blanning's. I give you the original French here:

Adieu, illustre invalide de l'empire de l'Amour. Guérissez-vous des blessures de Cythère, et faites du moins que nous profitions à Berlin de votre esprit, tandis que les p...... ne pourront profiter de votre corps.

Um. I see NO other way to read this than "Since our penises can't benefit from your body, at least we can talk." Fritz is NOT meh about sex with Algarotti. Fritz is like, "Damn! No sex with Algarotti this time."

Oh, wow. Blanning's source for the edition of these letters is from 1837, of course it is, and he didn't even think to check the slightly later Preuss. 1837 editor must have censored that last phrase out. BLANNING YOU DROPPED THE BALL HERE. For the biographer whose status as the "Fritz is gay" champion is exceeded only (to my knowledge) by the even more unreliable Burgdorf, you missed the chance to find PREUSS, he of the "I censor Fritz's letters when necessary," evidently either falling asleep on the job or deciding Fritz/Algarotti is cool, even though Fritz/Marwitz/Heinrich love triangles are fucking weird and won't fly with the current Hohenzollerns.

So. Canon Fritz/Algarotti, and Algarotti has an STD. Right?

Münchow fils: Fritz was treated by a field doctor in the early 1740s for something that proved he was still having sex, you Zimmermann idiot! Het sex, obviously.

Did Fritz get an STD from Algarotti??? I'm with selenak that I don't think he was traumatized by an operation into celibacy, but the STD is possible. Maybe he hadn't become symptomatic until 1741.

Discuss! (Including alternate interpretations of the French, in which there is an interesting number of plurals.)

Oh, man, I hope Hans Heinrich either had a good sense of humor or was riding in a different carriage on the way to the homage ceremony. :P

Re: All About Grandma: Barbara Beuys: Sophie Charlotte

[mildred_of_midgard]

I keep waking up to a free and fascinating education! Thank you!

Charles: Okay, but can you at least take a public stroll or two with me? Because then my creditors will be believe we're a match and will prolong my credit.

Hahaha, this is a great story.

I've taken to the Hannover crowd as a replacement family like a duck to water.

This reminds me of your "they were incredibly blatant about favouring future Billy the Butcher and hoping Fritz of Wales would somehow drop out of the picture. No wonder he took to Hervey like a duckling." Everyone is so messed up. :(

Barbara Beuys: Now, I know you heard the tales of how he loved her but she didn't love him and made fun of him

cahn, as a reminder, one of these is: That idiot Leibniz, who wants to teach me about the infinitesimally small! Has he therefore forgotten that I am the wife of Frederick the First, how can he imagine that I am unacquainted with my own husband?

Universal rejoicing: *happens* (Not an emotion FW would evoke much in future years)

I laughed so hard.

No, Barbara Beuys does not mention how I am related to chatty writer Pöllnitz.

Not closely as far as I can tell, that's all I can report. Computer limitations prevent me from spending more than 20 or 30 minutes on this question. (Yes, normally my genealogical endeavors take much, much more time.)

Friedrich: Wartensleben, want to become my new PM?

cahn: have we mentioned this guy often enough that you know how he's related to a major actor of the Fritzian generation?

Selenak: Or maybe he decided to hate ballet for the rest of his life after having to dance in front of everyone as Cupid.

Selenak is on to something, methinks!

gift my son with the new besteller by Fènelon, Telemaque, about how to be a compassionate, art-loving ruler.

Which will end up being one of Fritz's first formative books, at age 9!

Nazi era biographer C. Hinrich

Is this perchance Carl Hinrichs, author of the 1936 publication Kronprinzenprozeß that you were so kind as to summarize for us?

Beuys: Note the "his father". Just a few years earlier, she adored him as well.

Wow. That is pretty telling.

I'd like a reason given why Beuys is suspicious of the envoy report there, say, because "the surviving letters are respectful and affectionate" alone isn't it. I want something like Koser making mince meat out of Henri de Catt, preferably.

Yeah. Koser sets a high standard. I too am skeptical in the absence of firmer evidence.

Well, this was deeply entertaining and informative, as always! I still can't believe I lucked into having someone to read reams of books for me. :DD

(I wish I could tell you guys about all the stuff I'm reading, and I wish I could update our awesome chronology document. My Trello list is getting so long that items from a month or two ago, I'm no longer even sure from my cryptic shorthand what on earth I meant to talk about. :/)