Mes amies! Volz, "Friedrich der Große im Spiegel seiner Zeitgenossen", volume 1, FINALLY has the source of the "handsome husar", "the King's love could be deadly" "Fredersdorf jealous, soldier dead?" insinuations. It's on page 203. Context: part of a dispatch dated Hannover, March 9th, 1742, by one Baron August Wilhelm von Schicheldt, Secret Councillor to George II, Hannover department. In addition to writing a "hot or not?"profile of Fritz himself, he also profiles the entire court, politicians like Podewils (current Fritz minister, future envoy to Vienna and MT profiler), courtiers like Pöllnitz, relations like AW (who gets described as good natured but undereducated and not nearly the witty conversationalist or leader Big Bro is)...and finally he gets around to Fredersdorf. This report claims he's been enobled, which the books I've read so far said wasn't the case. Anyway, here's what the Baron says (drumroll...):
This von Fredersdorf is the first and oldest of the King's valets, and still does this service, despite the fact that after his ascension to the throne the King's majesty has enobled him and given him the title of Chamberlain. He's supposed to be the one who hasn't only been in his lord's confidence the longest, but has gotten closest to him. (The actual German phrase is more poetic - "am tiefsten in ihn gedrungen ist" - has dived deepest.) I haven't met him in person yet. But everyone praises his loyalty and supreme usefulness. I couldn't verify whether it is true that the King even talks about state business with him. That much is certan, that his majesty sketches out essays with his own hand, the content of which remains secret from his ministers for quite some time, while Fredersdorf busily is used as a copyist and in this way must have learned some secret or the other far sooner than anyone else. In the past summer, his credit fell suddenly and starkly; for the King threw his favour at a subaltern officer of his personal guard named Georgii, while (Fredersdorf) was told only to enter the King's tent anymore when he'd been called for, when he used to have unlimited access to it at all times before. But after Georgii just a few weeks later intentionally put a bullet in his head, a deed for which so many contradictory and partly extremely impudent causes have been named, which I do not dare to put down here, (Fredersdorf) has reclaimed the former royal favor and grace entirely.
The next guy profiled is Eichel, if you care to know. AAAANYWAY: a smoking gun! Mind you, that excerpt from the dispatch has at least one demonstrably false information - German-only-speaking Fredersdorf wasn't used by Fritz as a copyist for his exclusively French writings, to point out the glaringly obvious. And while there has been a question mark over whether or not Fritz ever ennobled him in some accounts, all I've seen so far have concluded that no, he didn't, not least because his widow (who ought to know) is listed as plain Madame Fredersdorf upon her remarriage.
Be that as it may, though, it's good to finally know that Hahn, Blanning and Burghaus didn't invent stuff out of the blue. Early 1742 is even early enough that Fredersdorf could actually have been with Fritz in the field (which would be necessary if he's seen as losing access privileges to the King's tent), which used to be a previous problem I've had with this tale, since in their preserved correspondance, which starts in 1745 or thereabouts, Fredersdorf tends to be in Berlin while Fritz is battling Austrians elsewhere. Now the good Baron admits that he doesn't know Fredersdorf himself, and he's reporting gossip. Which, of course, doesn't mean the gossip has to be wrong. So, questions:
- Did Fritz have a fling with a handsome subaltern named Georgii (Burghaus in his GAY GAY GAY bio spelled it differently, but that's how the originator of the tale spells it) with whom he locked himself in his tent, Heinrich and Kaphengst style?
- did Fredersdorf actually fell out of favour (after 10 years of same, if this was in the summer of 1741), or did Fritz simply want privacy for his fling during his first year of military Kingship? Or did they have an argument and this was a pointed gesture? If this was in the summer of 1741, it would additionally be less than a year after Fritz made Fredersdorf his chamberlain (and according to the Baron ennobled him)?
- do we think Fredersdorf was either insecure or murderous enough to arrange for the early demise of Georgii by faked suicide? I know we previously agreed it's unlikely, but that was before we had a date. I still think it's unlikely, but just to play devil's advocate: EVERYONE thought Fritz' behavior was different post-ascension, and wondered about their new standing with him. (Including Wilhelmine.) If there was a time when Fredersdorf could have been insecure despite all their years together, wouldn't it be in the year after Crown Prince Fritz became King Fritz, who suddenly could have everyone (if he wanted to) and started his quest for military glory in which Fredersdorf, who hadn't been a part of the army since almost a decade, couldn't really participate (unlike in every other department of Fritz' administration, as it otherwise turned out)?
- or, if Georgii the handsome soldier really did commit suicide: maybe gossip has reversed cause and effect here, and Georgii offed himself after realising he was just a fling and Fritz had no intention of letting him replace Frederdorf?
Well????
Edited 2020-03-22 15:22 (UTC)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
it's good to finally know that Hahn, Blanning and Burghaus didn't invent stuff out of the blue.
Agreed, but no points for not citing sources like actual historians! And for something as significant as this--!
Volz, like Koser, continues to be a gold mine. As, of course, does our royal reader. :)
If there was a time when Fredersdorf could have been insecure despite all their years together, wouldn't it be in the year after Crown Prince Fritz became King Fritz
This is the easiest part to answer: yes. Yes, if he's going to be insecure about a longstanding relationship, this is the single most likely time.
do we think Fredersdorf was either insecure or murderous enough to arrange for the early demise of Georgii by faked suicide?
- or, if Georgii the handsome soldier really did commit suicide: maybe gossip has reversed cause and effect here, and Georgii offed himself after realising he was just a fling and Fritz had no intention of letting him replace Frederdorf?
Third possibility: Fredersdorf took action that drove Georgii to suicide. Most likely avenue, if you ask me, from the guy who was later--or already?--in charge of Fritz's spy ring: digging up some dirt on Georgii and blackmailing him with it. Georgii then commits suicide before the King can find out, which Fredersdorf did or didn't expect, but either way takes advantage of.
- did Fredersdorf actually fell out of favour (after 10 years of same, if this was in the summer of 1741), or did Fritz simply want privacy for his fling during his first year of military Kingship? Or did they have an argument and this was a pointed gesture?
Pointed gesture seems possible. Especially if Fredersdorf was used to one kind of Fritz, and maybe did something that Crown Prince Fritz would have been fine with, but touchy new King, post-Mollwitz, still trying to prove himself, got snippy about. Fredersdorf then had to rapidly adjust to new boundaries with the King.
Maybe it's just hindsight, but I doubt Fritz was seriously thinking about letting him go in any shape or form. But Fritz has control issues, and kicking Fredersdorf out for a few nights might have been a gesture that reassured him that he was still in control. Before Fredersdorf re-learned how to keep this from ever happening again.
It's also possible they had an arrangement whereby of course the King gets to have casual sex--what king (other than weirdo FW) doesn't?--and when Fritz wants some privacy for it, gossip around the king fleshes this story out. Anyone who knows what a celebrity and a tabloid is knows that the new king is going to have stories told about him that are wildly exaggerated or outright fabricated.
I don't really know. What I would like, to begin with, is some more reliable evidence as to whether Fredersdorf was or wasn't in the field at the time.
I will definitely be thinking about this some more!
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Yes, if he's going to be insecure about a longstanding relationship, this is the single most likely time.
IKR? This concrete date named - the summer of 1741 - is the first time I could see the possibility. With Fritz still adjusting to having all the power, and everyone else adjusting to the changes in behavior this causes even aside from him invading other countries. Now I don't think Fredersdorf thought he'd get fired because King Fritz doesn't want the people around who saw Crown Prince Fritz at his weakest, not directly after getting a promotion and an estate (according to another envoy, a Saxon one writing pre invasion, Fredersdorf did get the estate Zernikow at once). But he could maybe have feared that this would turn into a gracious pay-off as far as their emotionally intimate relationship was concerned, and that now he was supposed to be just the valet/chamberlain, and no more, and maybe not that, either, if Georgii hinted he was after the Chamberlain/valet offices himself, with Zernikow meant in the same way as royal mistresses in countries not Prussia usually got a nice big country estate farewell present when it was over. (Sidenote: I don't mean that Fritz actually intended to do this, just that Fredersdorf might have feared he would in the summer of 1741.)
Incidentally, no other document included by Volz mentions Georgii the Subaltern, though some others include Fredersdorff. There's Bielfeld writing from Rheinsberg when Fritz is still a Crown Prince:
The Prince's first valet, Herr Fredersdorf, is a tall, beautiful man, who has wit and intelligent. He's polite, attentive, skillful, smooth, likes his possessions but still likes splendour. I believe he'll play a large role one day.
(This is as good a point as any as to voice my comment on the origin of Fredersdorf's fondness for earthly possessions and making money: if you were working for a decade for a boss who is chronically broke, in debt to half of Europe's sugar daddies and spending money no sooner than he has it, wouldn't you? I bet Fredersdorf, once he started for real in Fritz' service and had a look at his books, so to speak, thought: Ooookay. I'm devoted to you, and I will stick around, but clearly I should look for additional sources of income just to ensure the two of us don't have to go begging to your father again.)
Then there's Hofrat König from Saxony who mentions Fredersdorf's estate getting in 1740, and also that not Fritz but also Fredersdorf joined the Free Masons. (BTW: we already knew from the letters that Fritz called Fredersdorf "du" (while Fredersdorf writes "your majesty"). But according to the Free Masons I know, it's "du" all the way, because, you know, brothers, at least during lodge meetings and also when talking to each other a deux elsewhere.
Anyway, this Hofrat König describes Fredersdorf as: a very handsome, cheerful and courteous man who is not lacking either intelligence or manners.
Near the end of the volume (volume 1), Volz also includes Lehndorff's description of Fredersdorf from his diaries. (Remember, Volz helped Schmidt-Lözen decyphering handwritings, they were working buddies.) And there's one more Fredersdorf quote in between, from the duo who temporarily replaced Valory as French envoy until his return just before the 7 Years War, the Jacobite Exile Lord Tyrconnel and Latouche. They are the only other ones mention a temporary fallout between Fritz and Fredersdorf, but they don't give a date for this, nor do they mention Georgii the hussar or any other alternate favourite. Instead, what they, in the early 1750s, write is this, after complaining about how Eichel is practically invisible and it's impossible to get a hold of him (and bribe him to spy on Fritz):
Supposedly, (Eichel) owns half the share on all monopolies Monsieur Fredersdorf holds. (Fredersdorf) is the valet of the King and master of the treasury; he enjoys, as one knows, (the King's) confidence in a high degree. As Crown Prince, he took him out of his regiment where he'd been piper. It's also known that the King, when he was dissastisfied with his services as a valet, had put him back into his regiment. But since the King, as (Fredersdorf) knows, is very receptive for praise, (Frederdorf) has mastered the art of managing the King so well that he won back the highest favour, which he enjoys even today. As many claim (the King's) inclination regarding pleasure supposedly furthered (Fredersdorf)'s good fortune. But enough of this.
Latouche just adds that Fredersdorf has so much money of his own by now that they can't bribe him for their purposes, either. Now, like I said, Tyrconnel & Latouche don't give a date as to when this "putting him back into his regiment" supposedly had happened. They also are reporting an old rumor in any event, since by the early 1750s Fredersdorf is in no shape for the army, obviously. And no gossip seems to have told them about Georgii, so those two rumors might be entirely unrelated. But they might have a common origin, and that origin could be a temporary distance between Fritz and Fredersdorf in the summer of 1741; if so, and if Fredersdorf was indeed with Fritz in the field instead of home in Berlin managing things there as he'd later be, then I could see a decade later the rumor having reached the shape of "the King totally was going to put that upstart back into the army where he belonged!", especially since anyone to whom Tyrconnel & Latouche would be talking to in the early 1750s would be speaking with the frustratation of Fredersdorf not having lost his top position through the years.
(Incidentally, in terms of "how reliable are Tycronnel & Latouche as judges of character: it cracks me up that they report about Heinrich just like mid-1730s envoys report about Fritz, that he's smart but into arts and leisure, not military minded like the King at all, and not likely to do anything soldlierly ever. As with Crown Prince Fritz, you can see why they got this impression, and yet... (Evidentaly no one told them about the Heinrich & AW "how about another war" RPG in which Heinrich played Fritz.) The sole reason why they bring up Heinrich at all, btw, is that they wonder what would happen if AW became King. They do report he values his younger brother's advice a lot and thus think Heinrich would end up as a key voice in the next regime.)
Third possibility: Fredersdorf took action that drove Georgii to suicide. Most likely avenue, if you ask me, from the guy who was later--or already?--in charge of Fritz's spy ring: digging up some dirt on Georgii and blackmailing him with it. Georgii then commits suicide before the King can find out, which Fredersdorf did or didn't expect, but either way takes advantage of.
Now that's definitely an option. One doesn't become and stay a successful consigliere by playing nice. And if Georgii did something blackmail-worthy, Fredersdorf could have told himself he was just looking out for Fritz anyway. (Note: no poisoning attempts under his watch. Glasow was after.)
Pointed gesture seems possible. Especially if Fredersdorf was used to one kind of Fritz, and maybe did something that Crown Prince Fritz would have been fine with, but touchy new King, post-Mollwitz, still trying to prove himself, got snippy about. Fredersdorf then had to rapidly adjust to new boundaries with the King.
Maybe it's just hindsight, but I doubt Fritz was seriously thinking about letting him go in any shape or form. But Fritz has control issues, and kicking Fredersdorf out for a few nights might have been a gesture that reassured him that he was still in control. Before Fredersdorf re-learned how to keep this from ever happening again.
*nods* They were both still in a completely new situation in that year, which is why the date is so significant.
It's also possible they had an arrangement whereby of course the King gets to have casual sex--what king (other than weirdo FW) doesn't?--and when Fritz wants some privacy for it, gossip around the king fleshes this story out. Anyone who knows what a celebrity and a tabloid is knows that the new king is going to have stories told about him that are wildly exaggerated or outright fabricated.
Oh absolutely. And envoys are prone to bick up the more sensational rumors to report, not the boring normal scale ones. Speaking of rumors: you can bet that if Voltaire would have heard gossip of either variation re: a temporary Fritz/Fredersdorf fallout back in the day (i.e. either "Fritz was going to sack him for a handsome subaltern, UNTIL" or "Fritz was going to put him back into the army, UNTIL), he'd have included it in either the pamphlet or the memoirs, so it's interesting that he didn't, given he of course interacted with the French embassy people all the time.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
This is as good a point as any as to voice my comment on the origin of Fredersdorf's fondness for earthly possessions and making money: if you were working for a decade for a boss who is chronically broke, in debt to half of Europe's sugar daddies and spending money no sooner than he has it, wouldn't you?
Could be, or if it's unrelated to Fritz, suddenly going from poverty (Pomeranian peasant) to plenty makes a *lot* of people go money-crazy. We saw how Fritz reacted to the sudden relief from a deprived childhood! Fredersdorf is subject to the same aspects of human psychology that Fritz is. Some people don't react that way, but many do. Plus, couples that agree on how to handle money have an easier time than couples that don't. Yes, the rank difference means they're not just a couple, but if Fritz isn't driving Fredersdorf crazy with his obsession with getting and spending money, that might help Fredersdorf keep his chill over the years.
But according to the Free Masons I know, it's "du" all the way, because, you know, brothers, at least during lodge meetings and also when talking to each other a deux elsewhere.
Interesting! I wonder if it was the same in the 18th century. Clearly it wasn't in writing, not when a monarch was involved. At lodge meetings, though...I like to imagine Fredersdorf getting to "du" him!
how Eichel is practically invisible and it's impossible to get a hold of him (and bribe him to spy on Fritz)...Fredersdorf has so much money of his own by now that they can't bribe him for their purposes, either.
Haha, it's a rough life being a foreign envoy.
And if Georgii did something blackmail-worthy, Fredersdorf could have told himself he was just looking out for Fritz anyway.
This is an excellent point. Back when we decided MacDonogh's "Fredersdorf pocketed small sums" referred to Tyrconnell's "Fredersdorf accepted payment for forwarding your petition on to Fritz" accusation I went through Fredersdorf's probable thought process (at least to generate a headcanon for fic purposes), and concluded that it would be very easy Fredersdorf to rationalize this as him not being corrupt, i.e. that he would never allow money to influence him to do anything against Fritz's best interests, but all other things being equal wrt Fritz's best interests, if you wanted something *from* Fritz, you might as well pay for the privilege. He might even have seen it as weeding out frivolous requests.
Digging up dirt on people Fritz is showing an unnerving new interest in might fall under that same umbrella of looking out for him in a way that conveniently aligns with the interests of the consigliere.
(Note: no poisoning attempts under his watch. Glasow was after.)
Indeed, and Blanning claims that the poisoning is only one of two accusations that have been made against Glasow, and that the true crime isn't known. Münchow, Jr. certainly thought there was a poisoning attempt, but Münchow, Jr. is not the source of all truth.
especially since anyone to whom Tyrconnel & Latouche would be talking to in the early 1750s would be speaking with the frustratation of Fredersdorf not having lost his top position through the years.
Yeah, Fredersdorf was in a position to collect a lot of malicious gossip. People were bitter.
you can bet that if Voltaire would have heard gossip of either variation re: a temporary Fritz/Fredersdorf fallout back in the day (i.e. either "Fritz was going to sack him for a handsome subaltern, UNTIL" or "Fritz was going to put him back into the army, UNTIL), he'd have included it in either the pamphlet or the memoirs
Ooh, you're right. Voltaire would have told us if he'd known about it. He's pretty bitchy about Fredersdorf, for obvious reasons.
Fredersdorf...sat down at Friedrich's side, where he belonged.
I just wanted to say, this would make an excellent concluding line to a fic or scene in a fic about the handsome hussar! :)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
uddenly going from poverty (Pomeranian peasant) to plenty makes a *lot* of people go money-crazy. We saw how Fritz reacted to the sudden relief from a deprived childhood! Fredersdorf is subject to the same aspects of human psychology that Fritz is. S
Absolutely, that's very true. And unlike most of Heinrich's faves, he didn't waste that money he suddenly received but made it multiply. *suddenly imagines Fredersdorf as Scarlett O'Hara vowing "I will never go hungry again!" and becoming a capitalist extraordinaire in the second part of Gone with the Wind.*
At lodge meetings, though...I like to imagine Fredersdorf getting to "du" him!
Same!
Back when we decided MacDonogh's "Fredersdorf pocketed small sums" referred to Tyrconnell's "Fredersdorf accepted payment for forwarding your petition on to Fritz" accusation I went through Fredersdorf's probable thought process (at least to generate a headcanon for fic purposes), and concluded that it would be very easy Fredersdorf to rationalize this as him not being corrupt, i.e. that he would never allow money to influence him to do anything against Fritz's best interests, but all other things being equal wrt Fritz's best interests, if you wanted something *from* Fritz, you might as well pay for the privilege. He might even have seen it as weeding out frivolous requests.
*nods* BTW, I wonder whether McDonogh is basing this on the same Tyrconnel/Latouche letter that I was quoting from? Because it, Tyrconnel/Latouche continue after "but enough of this", in the very next sentence: This favourite isn't supposed to be unbribable, but is would be too late to win him over now; for he is very rich and has shares from all the fairs, all the defeats and all the monopolies.
It's worth noting they're talking rumor/reputation rather than personal experience here, i.e. the phrasing doesn't sound like Tyrconnel, personally, had to pay Fredersdorf for advancing a petition, but like he's talking about Fredersdorf's reputation in general. Or maybe McDonogh is referring to a different letter where Tyrconnel does talk about a bribe he had to make?
Anyway, given that Fritz accepted money from all and sunder in the Crown Prince years without letting this influence him in his future policies one bit (Seckendorff: you can say that again!!!), I could see Fredersdorf conclude he's entitled to do the same, i.e. accept money, as long as he doesn't actually try to manipulate Fritz accordingly. Maybe they even had an arrangement where Fredersdorf tells him what the current bribing rates are and who offers most, because that's telling about the respective envoys and their nations?
Indeed, and Blanning claims that the poisoning is only one of two accusations that have been made against Glasow, and that the true crime isn't known. Münchow, Jr. certainly thought there was a poisoning attempt, but Münchow, Jr. is not the source of all truth.
No, but Lehndorff backs him up in his diary, writing the gossip down as it happened during the easter holidays of 1757. Again, could simply be that this was the official explanation to cover for another reason, but the story certainly was there and believed in 1757, Münchow Jr isn't misremembering this bit decades later. What he contributes is that based on his own experience as a page, he thinks it might have been discovered because Fritz had people serving him his coffee or chocolate take a spoon of it first in a playful manner.
Yeah, Fredersdorf was in a position to collect a lot of malicious gossip. People were bitter.
Absolutely, and we shouldn't lose sight of the possibility these stories are no more fact based than "Prisoner Fritz is now wearing a beard and wild hair and long nails!", "Amalie has lots of illegitimate children and burned some in her fireplace" (Lehndorff notes that one down while simultanously saying it was ridiculous and that Amalie had a habit of adopting street strays of which, since it was the 7 Years War going on, there were an increasing lot), "AW couldn't count or write until Fritz became King", and, of course, the immortal "Let them eat cake" misattribution to Marie Antoinette. Fredersdorf, as the commoner who managed to remain Fritz' closest confidant from 1731 to 1757, would have been one of the most envied and resented people in the kingdom, and thus a lightning rod for malicious stories.
So, to recapitulate, we have the following possibilities:
1.) Nothing happened beyond possibly Fritz wanting to have privacy for some kind of action in his tent. Rumours took it from there and became ever more extravagant in the retelling.
2.) Georgii the handsome hussar did happen, and with bad timing, too, because it was just at the time when Fritz and Fredersdorf were still readjusting to the changes coming from Fritz' new warrior absolute king self, Fritz wanted to make a pointed gesture to reassure himself he was boss (after Mollwitz would be psychologically ideal), and Fredersdorf starts to wonder whether Zernikow could have been meant as a farewell gift and he's being eased out of Fritz' life, and decides to take action (by putting Georgii under intense scrutiny).
1.) would be nicer for rl, but 2.) certainly is more conductive to fanfiction! One would, of course, have to figure out what kind of dirt Fredersdorf then unearths on Georgii that leads Georgii to shoot himself. Gambling debts is traditional but would not work in this case, because who doesn't have those? Georgii responding to being newly favoured by the King with taking bribes could be blown off by Georgii with the same rationale we speculated on for Fredersdorf above. Hm.... I know! Georgii turns out in his free time to have composed odes to MT! Okay, more seriously, some kind of Austrian connection is the only thing I can think of right now.
Or: wait! My inner pulp fiction plotter awakens! Georgii, whose name rounds Russian anyway, has orginally come to Fritz' attention by a rec letter from the (recently) late Suhm, who supposedly met this fine young gent at St. Petersburg. Fredersdorf finds evidence that this letter was forged and someone coldbloodedly exploited Fritz' affection and grief for Suhm. This, Fritz would not forgive! And now that Georgii actually has gotten to know him a little, he nows that. Ergo suicide. (If faking a Suhm rec letter is not enough, then we could escalete it to "not only was the rec letter faked but Georgii POISONED Suhm (in the service of whichever enemy Suhm had), which Fredersdorf discovers and then gives Georgii an ultimatum).
I just wanted to say, this would make an excellent concluding line to a fic or scene in a fic about the handsome hussar! :)
*beams*
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
*suddenly imagines Fredersdorf as Scarlett O'Hara vowing "I will never go hungry again!" and becoming a capitalist extraordinaire in the second part of Gone with the Wind.*
That is an excellent image. I love it. Scarlett's one of my problematic faves.
At lodge meetings, though...I like to imagine Fredersdorf getting to "du" him!
Same!
Better yet, I like to imagine Fritz liking it. The same way he secretly likes Fredersdorf swapping out a coffee order for chocolate. It's lonely at the top, and as long as he feels safe enough, he craves emotional topping all the more for so thoroughly depriving himself of it.
Or maybe McDonogh is referring to a different letter where Tyrconnel does talk about a bribe he had to make?
Good question. You'd have to ask MacDonogh. He certainly doesn't say in his book. He rattles off several sentences about Fredersdorf, then at the end of the paragraph has a single footnote listing several sources, none of them primary and at least one of them suspect: Richter, Hamilton, Dehio (that encyclopedia of art monuments you were looking at in Stabi), Leuschner, and Fontane.
Anyway, given that Fritz accepted money from all and sunder in the Crown Prince years without letting this influence him in his future policies one bit (Seckendorff: you can say that again!!!), I could see Fredersdorf conclude he's entitled to do the same, i.e. accept money, as long as he doesn't actually try to manipulate Fritz accordingly.
Exactly what Fredersdorf said to Fritz in my head! Reference to Seckendorff and all. :D
Maybe they even had an arrangement where Fredersdorf tells him what the current bribing rates are and who offers most
Could be. It did occur to me that Fritz might have approved of this arrangement. (Although if so, I'd be very surprised if he didn't take a cut.)
Hm.... I know! Georgii turns out in his free time to have composed odes to MT!
HAHA.
Fredersdorf finds evidence that this letter was forged and someone coldbloodedly exploited Fritz' affection and grief for Suhm. This, Fritz would not forgive!
NEITHER WOULD I. I have an irrational soft spot for Suhm, current second favorite boyfriend. (Objectively, I know Fredersdorf was the best, and normally he would push all my buttons like whoa, but...this is a very topsy-turvy fandom for me in many respects. I still love you, Fredersdof! You're the best! I'm thrilled every time you show up in a fic!)
(If faking a Suhm rec letter is not enough, then we could escalete it to "not only was the rec letter faked but Georgii POISONED Suhm (in the service of whichever enemy Suhm had), which Fredersdorf discovers and then gives Georgii an ultimatum).
OMG.
Nice way(s) to make the most of the possible Russian connection, though! Also good job making it so Fredersdorf really *is* just looking out for Fritz. ;)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Hee. I admit I only love Fredersdorf/Fritz because of writing it; I tend to end up shipping the ships I write rather than the other way around :D (But also this probably has to do a bit with him being more zen in my head than yours, because I have a Thing for quietly competent and mostly-zen characters :) ) (Of course, if one really wanted to push my buttons one would write Fredersdorf as losing his cool about something! Double points if that something is "potentially failing/hurting Fritz.")
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Heeee! Okay, this is all great. (I don't think Georgii needs to posion Suhm, I think it's actually more heartbreaking if he just exploited Fritz's feelings for Suhm.)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Yes, the poisoning is probably too much, and the exploiting of Suhm grief and mourning is more insidious and devastating. Now we only have to figure out who does the forging of the rec letter, and why. I mean, I'm assuming Fritz would have been familiar enough with both Suhm's handwriting and that of his secretary, and if no one until Fredersdorf suspects Georgii might have made it up, Georgii must have known enough Suhm essentials to pass. (Doesn't mean intimate details, but enough so he doesn't make the mistake of describing him as bald when he had hair, that kind of thing.
Now, could be Czarina Anna's (who's then reigning unless I'm mistaken, this is pre Elizabeth's coup) Duke of Curland wants to place a spy near Fritz to have an eye on the new Prussian monarch, and they think dying Suhm + Fritz liking handsome man = chance to plant spy. But if we don't want too much international intrigue, than let's say Georgii was a husar who didn't get anywhere in Russia, really wanted that job in Prussia and one day in the tavern heard Suhm's secretary complain that all these letters from the Crown Prince/New King are headache to keep straight, expecially those with requests for BOOK LOANS. Georgii befriends the secretary who is maybe somewhat irked that Suhm, urgently hurrying home despite being in a bad state of health, intens to leave him behind, and so can persuade the secretary to forge him a rec letter. At this point he just figures it'll get him a good comisssion in the army, nothing more, and that once he's there, he'll prove himself so no one will ask Suhm whether he really knows this guy. But then the unexpected combination of Suhm actually dying and Fritz noticing Georgii when told that Suhm recced him, enough to have a short chat with him happens, and Georgii can't resist, he puts it on thick with how tight he was with Suhm etc. Presto!
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Chronology May 30, 1740: FW dies. July 1740: Fritz and Suhm finally get on the same page about Suhm definitely wanting to join his court. Late August/early September 1740: Suhm sets out from St. Petersburg. Approx. October 1, 1740: Suhm arrives in Warsaw, too sick to travel further. October 17, 1740: Czarina Anna dies. October 20, 1740: HRE Charles VI dies. November 8, 1740: Suhm dies in Warsaw. April 10, 1741: Mollwitz. Summer 1741: Georgii episode (supposedly). November (O.S.)/December 1741: Elizaveta's coup.
So not only does the Georgii/Suhm timing line up, but Fritz's grief will be fresh. GRRRR.
And yes, Anna died in late 1740. That was a year of European monarch turnover, what with her, MT's dad, and FW all going.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Excellent! Well, for us, not poor, grief-exploited Fritz. I also think it makes more sense if Georgii isn't a professional spy but just someone whose first lie escalates, snowball-wise, until he can't take anything back even if he wanted to. (Which he doesn't; until Fredersdorf starts his research, things are going fine for Georgii.)
Details: Suhm had a wife and daughter, right? Or just the daughter? Whom Fritz took care of? How old/young was she? If she's a small kid, there's no reason why she should have known some hussar her father recced, and it's not a problem. If she's a bit older, she could be perhaps the one who gives Fredersdorf the key clue (perhaps she knows Dad didn't write any rec letters for army people that last year, something like that)? Because going by how Fredersdorf was the one to organize the taking care of Keyserlingk's daughter, I'm assumung he'd also have been in charge of taking care of Suhm's relations.
Question: if Georgii was partly a pointed gesture on Fritz' part, what could Frederdorf have done which Crown Prince Fritz would have been okay with, but new King Fritz post Mollwitz would not?
Excellent! Well, for us, not poor, grief-exploited Fritz.
:-(
I also think it makes more sense if Georgii isn't a professional spy but just someone whose first lie escalates, snowball-wise, until he can't take anything back even if he wanted to.
Agreed!
Details: Suhm had a wife and daughter, right? Or just the daughter? Whom Fritz took care of? How old/young was she?
Detective Mildred reporting with ALL the details!
Immediate family The wife, Charlotte von der Lieth, was dead. At the time of his death, Suhm had a sister (Hedwig) and a brother (Nicolas), three (Preuss) or five (Wikipedia) sons, and one daughter. Perhaps five sons total and three surviving sons, given the rate of infant and child mortality? Fritz invited them all to Berlin and took care of the kids and unmarried sister, who was acting in loco parentis to the kids since the death of their mother.
Nicolas was the one who notified Fritz of the death. He had been in Warsaw at the time, so he must have been there ether because, as a Saxon, he was attending the Saxon-Polish court (I remember Suhm being exempted because of his health), or because he had gone there to be at his ailing brother's bedside. The former is more likely, but since Suhm was there for over a month, the latter's not impossible. It's possible the entire family was there, but I don't have confirmation on that. I'm not actually sure whether he took Hedwig and some or all of the kids to St. Petersburg, or left them in Saxony.
Hedwig lived in Berlin until her death nearly 33 years later, receiving a pension from Fritz. The kids were all educated under Fritz's long-distance supervision, and were given commissions and pensions as soon as they were old enough to enter the army.
The eldest son was named Ernst Ulrich Pierre, and he lost a leg in Fritz's service at Prague (1757). In 1759, he was given the title of councilor of war and the job of postmaster.
He died age 61/62 in May 1785, having in turn recommended *his* kids to Fritz. So in 1741, he would have been about 17/18. Definitely old enough to have had some idea what was going on politically, and as we've seen, possibly to have been at his father's side in St. Petersburg and at his deathbed in Warsaw. And even old enough to be in Silesia in 1741 if we want.
According to Preuss, the sister, for whom I don't have a name, married a Lieutenant-Colonel von Keith, ADC to the king*, in December 1750, Fritz having given permission in October 1750 at the request of Field Marshal (that would be James) Keith. Presumably the two Keiths are relatives.
Oh, wait, I found names! Margrethe Albertine Conradine (the name is given in Danish, so spellings may vary). The Keith she married is named Robert Baronet Keith, born March 16, 1715 in London. Two surviving sons and one daughter who died young. Oh, check it out, I have birth and death dates for her. March 13, 1725 - February 16, 1785. So she's actually 15 when her father dies, and 25 when she marries. And she and her oldest brother die within a couple months of each other.
* I wonder if this is why Peter Keith, also a lieutenant-colonel in 1750, gets listed as an ADC to Fritz in some sources but not others. Of course, since Lehndorff says Peter got an invitation to join Fritz at camp in autumn 1753, Peter Keith could *also* have been a Lt. Col. Keith ADC to Fritz, at least temporarily. A confusion of Keiths indeed!
Other Relatives and Digressions Suhm's father, Burchard, had been an ambassador as well, in his case to France. There were six daughters and seven sons from that marriage, so our Suhm came from a large family. Burchard used to take at least two of his sons to work, Ulrich (our Suhm) and his younger brother Nicolas, and trained them up in diplomacy. According to the dissertation, this kind of diplomatic apprenticeship was a not uncommon practice. Both Ulrich and Nicolas grew up to be ambassadors. At least two of Burchard's other sons also held important military and leadership position.
Ooh, you know what? Our Suhm, Ulrich, could well have followed in the family tradition and had his oldest son with him in St. Petersburg for a couple years of training around age 16, before he (I assume) gets sent to university. The younger kids can stay in Dresden in more congenial surroundings, with aunt/surrogate mom. Oldest son didn't end up being a diplomat, because he ended up in the Prussian military, but our Suhm didn't know that was going to happen. So Ernst would be perfectly placed to tip Fredersdorff off.
Suhm also had an uncle by the same name, who was a Danish admiral (the family is Danish in origin), whom schemer Seckendorff tried to win over to Imperial service, but he refused. Possibly because he was a good Protestant, says Wikipedia.
Vaguely related tangent: Wikipedia also tells me that Augustus the Strong's mother, Anna Sophia, was Danish, and our branch of the Suhm family came with her to Dresden when she married the Elector. Anna Sophia was super intellectual and reserved, her husband was all militaristic, and they had a somewhat distant marriage. When Augustus the Strong converted to Catholicism to become king of Poland, his wife refused to convert with him. To punish her, he gave his son and heir to his mother to raise. (Continuing with the theme of 18th century heirs being taken away from their mothers, often to be raised by their grandmothers.) Danish Mom Anna Sophia was also a devout Lutheran (so this really was about punishment and not religion), and tried to keep future Augustus III from converting, but failed. He ended up converting in 1712 so he could marry an Austrian archduchess.
Our Suhm Ulrich Friedrich von Suhm attended the University of Geneva. He was envoy to Berlin from 1720-1730. According to Wikipedia and a genealogy site, he married Charlotte on November 1, 1721. In 1727, FW threatened to hang him because he was mad at actions of the Saxon ministers, who were mad at him over illegal recruiting practices. Suhm fled Prussia, and Augustus made him go back.
Charlotte died in 1730. I don't know what month. In January of that same year, Suhm was dismissed as envoy to Prussia and was pensioned off. At that point, he divided his time between Berlin and Dresden, until the St. Petersburg posting. He received his assignment in late 1736, and arrived in St. Petersburg in early 1737. He asked for his dismissal in June 1740, and received it several weeks later (the mail took time to go back and forth). He died in Warsaw in November 1740.
Saxon Diplomatic History Because I found a dissertation on the subject in the 1694-1763 period, lol. It's in German, but I did my best, and it gave me names I could google.
Prussia Ulrich Friedrich von Suhm, our Suhm, was envoy to Prussia from 1720-1730, as we've seen. I had been wondering and wondering what happened in 1730, and came up with a whole headcanon that's now been exploded, and based on that headcanon, wrote a whole scene for the fix-it fic that I now have to decide what to do with.
Turns out, in the autumn of 1729, the Saxons (possibly at the advice of Suhm himself), decided that what they really needed was someone suitable for attending FW's tobacco parliament, otherwise they were never going to get anywhere. I'm only surprised it took them 9 years to come to this conclusion! So they sent Christian Ernst von Polenz, a military man. From the middle of September 1729, he was stationed alongside Suhm, hung out at Wusterhausen, and had FW's favor. But he wasn't being nearly as diplomatically successful as Seckendorff (who was, really?), so the Saxons replaced him with Moritz Karl von Lynar. We'll see more of Lynar later.
From January 1730, Lynar was the sole Saxon envoy to Prussia, which means Suhm must have been honorably dismissed at that point. ("We're sorry what we need is a heavy drinker in the army who enjoys hunting and crude jokes, and that you can't fake it. It's not you, it's FW.") But in November 1730 (oh, *man*, I want to see Lynar's envoy report about the execution!), FW asked for Polenz back, and got him.
This is kind of hilarious, in light of Fritz's oft-quoted reaction when he heard Suhm had accepted an assignment to St. Petersburg. "This barbarous court needs those men who know how to drink well and fuck vigorously. I don't think you'd recognize yourself in this description. Your delicate body is the custodian of a fine soul, spiritual and penetrating."
Russia Which leads me to talk about Suhm's posting to Russia. Apparently what happened was that Lynar, his short-lived successor in Prussia, had been posted to Russia in 1733--okay, so what happened was that Lynar was postmaster general, and in 1733 he got sent to Russia to announce that Augustus had died and been succeeded as Elector of Saxony by his only legitimate son Augustus III, and that the Polish throne was open (the War of the Polish Succession is about to happen). Lynar then hung out in St. Petersburg alongside le Fort, the current envoy, for almost a year, before Lynar got promoted to sole envoy.
Then, Lynar starts having an affair with Anna Leopoldovna, niece of the Czarina Anna, future mother of Ivan VI, and future regent of Russia. His enemies intrigue against him, and Saxony is forced to recall him. But because it's so nice to have somebody on the good side of someone with that much influence and potential future influence, they're planning on sending him back as soon as they can. But for now, they need a replacement.
Headcanon that they look around for envoys who have exhibited some skill at getting on the good side of the future ruler, and settle on Suhm, BFF of Crown Prince Fritz. :P
So Suhm goes to Russia in 1737. He's not informed about Lynar/Anna! In 1740, as we know, he requests his recall, and gets it. The Saxons consult the Russian envoy in Dresden about Suhm's successor, and they insist on having Lynar back. The Saxons are cool with this, since by now, his mistress is running the country. But it takes about a year before this is all settled, and when Lynar's on his way back to Russia in late 1741, he learns that Anna, now regent for her baby son Ivan VI, has been overthrown by Elizaveta. So he gives up on this whole project and stays in Saxony.
France Our Suhm's father, Burchard von Suhm, was the Saxon ambassador to France from 1709 to 1720. He and his son Nicolas were present at Utrecht in 1713 for the famous conference and signing of the resulting peace agreements. Burchard died in office in Paris in 1720.
He was succeeded by Carl Heinrich von Hoym, whom we've seen before. He was guy who showed up in Katte's species facti as having discouraged the escape attempt at Zeithain. When we dug into his background, we found that that he "was the Saxon ambassador to Versailles, who had recently returned to Saxony. He apparently had many enemies there and in other courts (including Berlin and Vienna), and was imprisoned three times, before finally committing suicide in prison in 1736. Wikipedia tells me one of the charges, which it believes is trumped-up, was impregnating his niece."
Mail delivery The dissertation very conveniently told me how long, on average, it took for envoy reports to get from various courts to Dresden. This is the sort of thing I'm extremely interested in!
Three to four days from Berlin, a week from Munich, mostly eight days from Copenhagen, about ten days from Paris and Stockholm, thirteen to eighteen days from Turin, three weeks from St. Petersburg. (I can tell from Fritz's correspondence with Suhm that it was about 2 weeks between Rheinsberg/Berlin and St. Petersburg.)
Addendum on the kids OMG wait! I found more details on the kids. Maybe my headcanon for Suhm's dismissal/retirement works after all, somewhat modified. Check this out. Birth and death dates for all the kids.
Jakob Heinrich: September 19, 1722 - February 11, 1733 Ernst Ulrich Peter: December 6, 1723 - 1785 (dying letter in May) Margarethe Albertine Conradine: March 13, 1725 - February 16, 1785 Nicolas: October 23, 1726 - 1746 Burchard Siegfried Carl: September 5, 1728 - 1783 Frederik Christian: January 3, 1730 - March 9, 1732
I was right about two of them dying young and that accounting for the discrepancy between 3 sons and 5 sons.
So my headcanon was that Suhm stepping down in 1730 had something to do with his wife's death. Then I found the account of Polenz and the tobacco parliament and all that, and that made it clear it was political rather than personal reasons. But even so, Suhm was left as co-envoy until 1730, so I thought maybe his wife's death was still the trigger for his retirement.
Then when I found out Lynar was sole envoy starting in January, I thought, "Naah. What are the odds she died before that posting? Less than 1/12." But now I find Charlotte giving birth to a child on January 3 in 1730. The child does survive, but dies at age 2. You tell me what her most likely cause of death is. I'm thinking it was a difficult birth for both of them. (Or he just died of whatever kids died of back then, which was a lot of things.)
See, if Polenz can be co-envoy with Suhm, and be dismissed because he's doing a bad job and get replaced by Lynar, how come Suhm has to step down for Lynar? We've seen other co-envoys, like von Johnn and Løvenørn, and le Fort and Lynar in Russia. Plus Suhm seems to be in favor with the Saxon gov't, he just doesn't have the right personality to go drinking and smoking and hunting with FW. But he had been envoy for 10 years, and even after the Saxons decided they needed a military man, evidently still left him as envoy in Berlin. And they used him again as soon as there was an opening in Russia.
I'm thinking devoted and heartbroken husband in January 1730. Combined with ten years of good service and a recognition that the Saxons do need someone more suited to FW's personality, I'm thinking that could get him a bereavement leave that turns into a permanent retirement and pension.
At least I think I can use it for fic! Also, the timing works, as I didn't until tonight have a month in 1730 during which Suhm stepped down, and for fic purposes, I needed it to have been well before the Zeithain camp in June. I was willing to fudge it for the sake of the story, as I've done before, but if it's January, I don't have to!
That leaves me thinking it's fair to leave the other part of my headcanon in place. To wit: In 1727, Suhm flees Prussia under threat of hanging. According to one of my sources, with his family. Then he's ordered and shamed into going back. My headcanon: he leaves the family behind in Dresden for their own safety. It's only a 3-4 day journey between Berlin and Dresden, so he can visit them and impregnate Charlotte as needed (good to know that it's needed), but he puts their safety first.
Mind you, I'm still wondering whether the kids and sister went with him to St. Petersburg. I have no evidence on that either way.
Because going by how Fredersdorf was the one to organize the taking care of Keyserlingk's daughter, I'm assumung he'd also have been in charge of taking care of Suhm's relations.
You're right! That makes a lot of sense. I say Ernst is our most likely tipper-off.
what could Frederdorf have done which Crown Prince Fritz would have been okay with, but new King Fritz post Mollwitz would not?
Good question. I will give this some thought. My brain is in 100% Suhm mode right now, after the previous write-up involving a few hours of digging through sources. lol.
It's been a useful dual-purpose mini-research project, for the Georgii fic (which you're going to write, right?) and my fix-it fic. Which, between Rothenburg and Suhm, has led me deeper into the weeds of 18th century diplomacy than I ever anticipated. :P I think both envoys are getting rheinsberg write-ups at the next opportunity.
Hmm. If you look at this fertile woman's pregnancy record, the only time she takes more than a year to get pregnant is in 1727. Assuming for the sake of the model that she gets pregnant 9 months to the day before giving birth, there's a possible outlier here:
December 19, 1721: Gets pregnant 6 weeks after marriage. March 6, 1723: Gets pregnant 5.5 months after giving birth. June 13, 1724: Gets pregnant 6 months after giving birth. January 23, 1726: Gets pregnant 10 months after giving birth. December 5, 1727: Gets pregnant 14 months after giving birth. April 3, 1729: Gets pregnant 7 months after giving birth.
Right around the time she would normally have been getting pregnant (April 1727), they're all busy fleeing the country. The angry letter from Augustus to FW over the hanging incident is March 28, 1727. Now, she could have had a miscarriage sometime in 1727, but I wonder if she did stay in Dresden for a few months, separated from her husband, before they decided it was safe for her to come back to Berlin. (Realistically, she was probably in Berlin in 1730, but for maximum angst reasons, I want her to have fictionally died in Dresden.)
Side note: Would not be an 18th century woman for anything!
First class word, Detective! I say Ernst was with Dad in St. Peterburg. Whether he should in Silesia: otoh, Heinrich was at age 16, so why not, otoh, Heinrich is Heinrich the brat, third brother, whereas Ernst is Oldest Son Of Beloved Suhm, that's why not. Also if Ernst was in Silesia, Georgii could have been outed by him directly (to Fritz). So it's more convenient if he's not, and we have roughly this series of events:
Fredersdorf: does thing that would have been okay with Crown Prince Fritz but not with King Fritz Fritz: discovers Georgii, is told Georgii was personally recced by Suhm, chats with him; Georgii can't resist going from "yeah, he recced me" to "yeah, we totally were bffs those last months in St. Petersburg, he saw a young guy who needed help, he helped, you know how he was" Fritz: promotes Georgii to batman and makes pointed gesture of temporarily removing Fredersdorf's unlimited access, possibly even sending him back to Berlin to look after things there (this will later gossip-wise, transform in "Fredersdorf fell out of favour/was put back into his old regiment) Fredersdorf: checks on Suhm's family, which he'd have done anyway, but is also now for the first time since their initial getting together somewhat worried about his place with Fritz, plus he's distrustful of this Georgii fellow but can't tell whether that's instinct or jealousy, so he asks Ernst whether he knew Georgii Ernst: Hasn't, but of course it's theoretically possible that his father could have had a protegé without him knowing Fredersdorf: has Ernst look at original rec letter, which is in proper secretary's handwriting, decides the secretary is key, finds out secretary is now in Dresden, has spy interlude in Dresden, returns to the front several weeks later to give Georgii an ultimatum Georgii: By now has gotten to know Fritz well enough to conclude he's toast if Fredersdorf does spill the beans = > suicide
you can bet that if Voltaire would have heard gossip of either variation re: a temporary Fritz/Fredersdorf fallout back in the day (i.e. either "Fritz was going to sack him for a handsome subaltern, UNTIL" or "Fritz was going to put him back into the army, UNTIL), he'd have included it in either the pamphlet or the memoirs
Ha! Good point.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Conclusion: Voltaire can't have heard either story during his three years in Prussia, so the Georgii story most likely died down early on due to lack of feeding material (i.e. Fredersdorf securely in power at Fritz' side, no alternate candidate spotted through the 40s), and the "put him back in the army" story was something Tyrconnel & Latouche heard once but which wasn't a popular rumor (that would have reached Voltaire) because people went "yeah, no" at the unlikelihood and showed no interest.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
I mean, you know I am a Fredersdorf stan, but still I claim Fredersdorf was not insecure or murderous enough to arrange for Georgii's death :P Here are my arguments: -You pointed out that Fredersdorf was gracious to people below him like Lehndorff, even when he was ill and not his best. That doesn't strike me as a quality of someone who would get rid of a person who was giving him trouble -Blanning tells me that Fritz bought Fredersdorf an estate immediately after ascending to the throne; do we have a date on this and how does it compare to the date of Georgii? I guess if it was after Georgii then maybe this is evidence against, lol
- or, if Georgii the handsome soldier really did commit suicide: maybe gossip has reversed cause and effect here, and Georgii offed himself after realising he was just a fling and Fritz had no intention of letting him replace Frederdorf?
This makes much more sense to me :P Although, okay, I guess I also would buy mildred_of_midgard's theory of blackmail, I mean, I think Fredersdorf is nice enough not to arrange for someone's murder but I think it's very possible he might go for finding out dirt on someone and letting events play out :P
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
I see we all favour the "Fredersdorf could have found out dirt and used it" theory. I can see another reason why it's unlikely Fredersdorf could have actually, physically, have Georgii killed: the Hannover envoy seems sure Georgii did commit suicide, he's just unsure re: the reasons. So I'm assuming the suicide might have been observed by others. All the more likely if this happened while the Silesian war was still going on. There's little privacy in the army if you're not the King or a high ranking general and in possession of a tent of your own, and evne then there'd be servants.
Besides, if it had been murder staged as suicide, Fredersdorf would have either had to rely on a third party (v. risky, opens him to blackmail) for doing the deed, or do it himself (also very risky, since no matter in which shape he himself was in in 1741, Georgii would have been younger and an active soldier trained to kill in defense of his own life). And if he was afraid of losing Fritz' favour before, which is the entire supposed motive for such a deed, he'd be 100% certain to lose it if Fritz as much as suspected such a thing. No one ever described Fredersdorf as foolish. Whereas if he finds dirt on Georgii and lets things play out, he's in the clear, and Georgi disqualifies himself.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Your arguments about the difficulty of Fredersdorf committing murder or murder-for-hire are very persuasive.
And if he was afraid of losing Fritz' favour before, which is the entire supposed motive for such a deed, he'd be 100% certain to lose it if Fritz as much as suspected such a thing. No one ever described Fredersdorf as foolish.
I could not agree with this more. Whatever happened to Georgii, Fritz did not suspect Fredersdorf of wrongdoing. And it's doubtful to me that Fredersdorf, wherever he might fall on the continuum from nice to ruthless, would have taken that risk with a touchy king in 1741.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Unexpectedly, Mr. Büsching has delivered a suicidal hussar... from 1775. When Fredersdorf was long dead. Büsching writes thusly:
He had intentionally ignorant people who couldn't read or write as his servants, and not for the usual use, believing that nothing disadvantagegous or dangerous was to fear from them; he was however wrong about this. A case in point was the Chamber Hussar Deesen, for whom he had much favour and grace, but whom he, I don't know why, eventually put in such a great disgrace that the man grew desperate over it. If I'm not mistaken, both (disgrace and desperation) reached their peak in the July of 1775. The King was back then visited by family members, and during this visit he'd ordered that the man shouldn't appear in front of him. When the visited had ended, and the King was back at Sanssouci, he'd ordered the man to him one morning and gave him to the aide who'd read the rapport with the command that he'd be used as a drummer at the corps. The man fell to his feet, but he kicked him away, and when the man clung to his knees again, (the King) had him pulled away by force. Deesen asked the aide who went with him whether he was allowed to pick up his hat; and when he'd gone to his room, he shot himself with a prepared and loaded pistol he'd kept for such a case. When this was reported to the King, he first said "but where did he get the loaded gun from?" and then "I wouldn't have expected such courage from him". But one noticed much disturbance of the temper from the King about this event, and from the questions he put to his people afterwards, one could see this event had been very disagreeable to him. This man had not known how to read or write, but he had someone else read to him something which had been lying on the King's table.
1.) One suicidal hussar might be regarded as a misfortune. Two looks like carelessness, misquote Oscar Wilde.
2.) Yep, that's FW's son, alright.
3.) So clearly this had nothing to do with Fredersdorf, what with him being dead, and Old Fritz in 1775 isn't necessarily like young Fritz in 1741, but presumably this is the kind of thing Georgii might have been afraid would happen, quite independent from what Frederdorf did or did not do?
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
(Poking my head in for a little but leaving the computer again soon. :( )
Not unexpected to me; I had reported this before, and wasn't sure if it was the Burgdorf's Gregorii under a different name.
Looking back, I didn't recount the full anecdote, but I definitely remember all the details mentioned there, especially "When this was reported to the King, he first said 'but where did he get the loaded gun from?' and then 'I wouldn't have expected such courage from him'."
This is what I did report:
Preuss enumerates the valets/batmen/lackeys that got dismissed for stealing from Fritz. Glasow is mentioned, of course (in a "more on him later" kind of way), and so are a couple others. Including a Deesen, who was accused of stealing from Fritz, and ordered to become a drum-beater in the army as part of his punishment. Well, evidently he couldn't take the humiliation, and on July 23, 1775, shot himself at Sanssouci.
...I can't find any more on this guy, but I was reminded of something you found in Burgdorf: "'The King's love could be deadly. Katte wasn't the only one who lost his life. A young officer, Gregorii, shot himself when Friedrich turned towards a new favourite.'...I wonder if Deesen's first name might be Gregorii, or if Burgdorf might otherwise be reporting the same story under a different name.
Thank you for picking up my past self's slack and translating the full anecdote!
One suicidal hussar might be regarded as a misfortune. Two looks like carelessness, misquote Oscar Wilde.
Haha.
So clearly this had nothing to do with Fredersdorf, what with him being dead, and Old Fritz in 1775 isn't necessarily like young Fritz in 1741, but presumably this is the kind of thing Georgii might have been afraid would happen, quite independent from what Frederdorf did or did not do?
Sounds about right. Theirs was also a much more "death before dishonor" culture than ours, so suicide, while not by any means less tragic, was more likely to present itself as an alternative to disgrace. Which is not to say that everyone chose death, but there was a stronger emphasis on lost honor as the ultimate worst. Witness AW refusing medical treatment.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
ROTFL. I love your totally objective and unbiased historical analysis. :-P
You know, I've been waiting and waiting for you to weigh in on the whole "Fredersdorf: sudden murder suspect" debate, since you had such strong feelings about the embezzlement. I see you held off until there was a stronger case to be made. ;)
Blanning tells me that Fritz bought Fredersdorf an estate immediately after ascending to the throne; do we have a date on this and how does it compare to the date of Georgii?
A year earlier. Georgii is summer 1741; Fredersdorf got Zernikow in June 1740 (FW died May 30) according to my memory plus selenak's "immediately according to an envoy report" above plus Rödenbeck. Rödenbeck says Fredersdorf was made chamberlain and treasurer on September 28 of the same year. (Man, all I ever wanted was a day-by-day account of Fritz's activities. I don't know how reliable Rödenbeck is, but in terms of structuring the data, he's a man after my own heart!)
Oh, haha, Rödenbeck refutes Burchardt's recently published "son of merchant in Franconia" account of Fredersdorf's origins. Good for him.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Well then! Fritz may have become a different person on ascending to the throne, but that was a person who really liked Fredersdorf :P
Of course, *we* all know this, but did *Fredersdorf* know this for sure in 1741, when Fritz was making everyone nervous? As selenak points out, an estate can be a parting gift!
You just wait, I'm going to produce an Epic History to rival Zimmermann. It will be called Fredersdorf: The Real Hero.
I can't wait! (Seriously, please do. Your Fredersdorf secret diary was awesome.)
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
This von Fredersdorf is the first and oldest of the King's valets, and still does this service, despite the fact that after his ascension to the throne the King's majesty has enobled him and given him the title of Chamberlain. He's supposed to be the one who hasn't only been in his lord's confidence the longest, but has gotten closest to him. (The actual German phrase is more poetic - "am tiefsten in ihn gedrungen ist" - has dived deepest.) I haven't met him in person yet. But everyone praises his loyalty and supreme usefulness. I couldn't verify whether it is true that the King even talks about state business with him. That much is certan, that his majesty sketches out essays with his own hand, the content of which remains secret from his ministers for quite some time, while Fredersdorf busily is used as a copyist and in this way must have learned some secret or the other far sooner than anyone else.
In the past summer, his credit fell suddenly and starkly; for the King threw his favour at a subaltern officer of his personal guard named Georgii, while (Fredersdorf) was told only to enter the King's tent anymore when he'd been called for, when he used to have unlimited access to it at all times before. But after Georgii just a few weeks later intentionally put a bullet in his head, a deed for which so many contradictory and partly extremely impudent causes have been named, which I do not dare to put down here, (Fredersdorf) has reclaimed the former royal favor and grace entirely.
The next guy profiled is Eichel, if you care to know. AAAANYWAY: a smoking gun! Mind you, that excerpt from the dispatch has at least one demonstrably false information - German-only-speaking Fredersdorf wasn't used by Fritz as a copyist for his exclusively French writings, to point out the glaringly obvious. And while there has been a question mark over whether or not Fritz ever ennobled him in some accounts, all I've seen so far have concluded that no, he didn't, not least because his widow (who ought to know) is listed as plain Madame Fredersdorf upon her remarriage.
Be that as it may, though, it's good to finally know that Hahn, Blanning and Burghaus didn't invent stuff out of the blue. Early 1742 is even early enough that Fredersdorf could actually have been with Fritz in the field (which would be necessary if he's seen as losing access privileges to the King's tent), which used to be a previous problem I've had with this tale, since in their preserved correspondance, which starts in 1745 or thereabouts, Fredersdorf tends to be in Berlin while Fritz is battling Austrians elsewhere. Now the good Baron admits that he doesn't know Fredersdorf himself, and he's reporting gossip. Which, of course, doesn't mean the gossip has to be wrong. So, questions:
- Did Fritz have a fling with a handsome subaltern named Georgii (Burghaus in his GAY GAY GAY bio spelled it differently, but that's how the originator of the tale spells it) with whom he locked himself in his tent, Heinrich and Kaphengst style?
- did Fredersdorf actually fell out of favour (after 10 years of same, if this was in the summer of 1741), or did Fritz simply want privacy for his fling during his first year of military Kingship? Or did they have an argument and this was a pointed gesture? If this was in the summer of 1741, it would additionally be less than a year after Fritz made Fredersdorf his chamberlain (and according to the Baron ennobled him)?
- do we think Fredersdorf was either insecure or murderous enough to arrange for the early demise of Georgii by faked suicide? I know we previously agreed it's unlikely, but that was before we had a date. I still think it's unlikely, but just to play devil's advocate: EVERYONE thought Fritz' behavior was different post-ascension, and wondered about their new standing with him. (Including Wilhelmine.) If there was a time when Fredersdorf could have been insecure despite all their years together, wouldn't it be in the year after Crown Prince Fritz became King Fritz, who suddenly could have everyone (if he wanted to) and started his quest for military glory in which Fredersdorf, who hadn't been a part of the army since almost a decade, couldn't really participate (unlike in every other department of Fritz' administration, as it otherwise turned out)?
- or, if Georgii the handsome soldier really did commit suicide: maybe gossip has reversed cause and effect here, and Georgii offed himself after realising he was just a fling and Fritz had no intention of letting him replace Frederdorf?
Well????
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
it's good to finally know that Hahn, Blanning and Burghaus didn't invent stuff out of the blue.
Agreed, but no points for not citing sources like actual historians! And for something as significant as this--!
Volz, like Koser, continues to be a gold mine. As, of course, does our royal reader. :)
If there was a time when Fredersdorf could have been insecure despite all their years together, wouldn't it be in the year after Crown Prince Fritz became King Fritz
This is the easiest part to answer: yes. Yes, if he's going to be insecure about a longstanding relationship, this is the single most likely time.
do we think Fredersdorf was either insecure or murderous enough to arrange for the early demise of Georgii by faked suicide?
- or, if Georgii the handsome soldier really did commit suicide: maybe gossip has reversed cause and effect here, and Georgii offed himself after realising he was just a fling and Fritz had no intention of letting him replace Frederdorf?
Third possibility: Fredersdorf took action that drove Georgii to suicide. Most likely avenue, if you ask me, from the guy who was later--or already?--in charge of Fritz's spy ring: digging up some dirt on Georgii and blackmailing him with it. Georgii then commits suicide before the King can find out, which Fredersdorf did or didn't expect, but either way takes advantage of.
- did Fredersdorf actually fell out of favour (after 10 years of same, if this was in the summer of 1741), or did Fritz simply want privacy for his fling during his first year of military Kingship? Or did they have an argument and this was a pointed gesture?
Pointed gesture seems possible. Especially if Fredersdorf was used to one kind of Fritz, and maybe did something that Crown Prince Fritz would have been fine with, but touchy new King, post-Mollwitz, still trying to prove himself, got snippy about. Fredersdorf then had to rapidly adjust to new boundaries with the King.
Maybe it's just hindsight, but I doubt Fritz was seriously thinking about letting him go in any shape or form. But Fritz has control issues, and kicking Fredersdorf out for a few nights might have been a gesture that reassured him that he was still in control. Before Fredersdorf re-learned how to keep this from ever happening again.
It's also possible they had an arrangement whereby of course the King gets to have casual sex--what king (other than weirdo FW) doesn't?--and when Fritz wants some privacy for it, gossip around the king fleshes this story out. Anyone who knows what a celebrity and a tabloid is knows that the new king is going to have stories told about him that are wildly exaggerated or outright fabricated.
I don't really know. What I would like, to begin with, is some more reliable evidence as to whether Fredersdorf was or wasn't in the field at the time.
I will definitely be thinking about this some more!
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
IKR? This concrete date named - the summer of 1741 - is the first time I could see the possibility. With Fritz still adjusting to having all the power, and everyone else adjusting to the changes in behavior this causes even aside from him invading other countries. Now I don't think Fredersdorf thought he'd get fired because King Fritz doesn't want the people around who saw Crown Prince Fritz at his weakest, not directly after getting a promotion and an estate (according to another envoy, a Saxon one writing pre invasion, Fredersdorf did get the estate Zernikow at once). But he could maybe have feared that this would turn into a gracious pay-off as far as their emotionally intimate relationship was concerned, and that now he was supposed to be just the valet/chamberlain, and no more, and maybe not that, either, if Georgii hinted he was after the Chamberlain/valet offices himself, with Zernikow meant in the same way as royal mistresses in countries not Prussia usually got a nice big country estate farewell present when it was over. (Sidenote: I don't mean that Fritz actually intended to do this, just that Fredersdorf might have feared he would in the summer of 1741.)
Incidentally, no other document included by Volz mentions Georgii the Subaltern, though some others include Fredersdorff. There's Bielfeld writing from Rheinsberg when Fritz is still a Crown Prince:
The Prince's first valet, Herr Fredersdorf, is a tall, beautiful man, who has wit and intelligent. He's polite, attentive, skillful, smooth, likes his possessions but still likes splendour. I believe he'll play a large role one day.
(This is as good a point as any as to voice my comment on the origin of Fredersdorf's fondness for earthly possessions and making money: if you were working for a decade for a boss who is chronically broke, in debt to half of Europe's sugar daddies and spending money no sooner than he has it, wouldn't you? I bet Fredersdorf, once he started for real in Fritz' service and had a look at his books, so to speak, thought: Ooookay. I'm devoted to you, and I will stick around, but clearly I should look for additional sources of income just to ensure the two of us don't have to go begging to your father again.)
Then there's Hofrat König from Saxony who mentions Fredersdorf's estate getting in 1740, and also that not Fritz but also Fredersdorf joined the Free Masons. (BTW: we already knew from the letters that Fritz called Fredersdorf "du" (while Fredersdorf writes "your majesty"). But according to the Free Masons I know, it's "du" all the way, because, you know, brothers, at least during lodge meetings and also when talking to each other a deux elsewhere.
Anyway, this Hofrat König describes Fredersdorf as: a very handsome, cheerful and courteous man who is not lacking either intelligence or manners.
Near the end of the volume (volume 1), Volz also includes Lehndorff's description of Fredersdorf from his diaries. (Remember, Volz helped Schmidt-Lözen decyphering handwritings, they were working buddies.) And there's one more Fredersdorf quote in between, from the duo who temporarily replaced Valory as French envoy until his return just before the 7 Years War, the Jacobite Exile Lord Tyrconnel and Latouche. They are the only other ones mention a temporary fallout between Fritz and Fredersdorf, but they don't give a date for this, nor do they mention Georgii the hussar or any other alternate favourite. Instead, what they, in the early 1750s, write is this, after complaining about how Eichel is practically invisible and it's impossible to get a hold of him (and bribe him to spy on Fritz):
Supposedly, (Eichel) owns half the share on all monopolies Monsieur Fredersdorf holds. (Fredersdorf) is the valet of the King and master of the treasury; he enjoys, as one knows, (the King's) confidence in a high degree. As Crown Prince, he took him out of his regiment where he'd been piper. It's also known that the King, when he was dissastisfied with his services as a valet, had put him back into his regiment. But since the King, as (Fredersdorf) knows, is very receptive for praise, (Frederdorf) has mastered the art of managing the King so well that he won back the highest favour, which he enjoys even today. As many claim (the King's) inclination regarding pleasure supposedly furthered (Fredersdorf)'s good fortune. But enough of this.
Latouche just adds that Fredersdorf has so much money of his own by now that they can't bribe him for their purposes, either. Now, like I said, Tyrconnel & Latouche don't give a date as to when this "putting him back into his regiment" supposedly had happened. They also are reporting an old rumor in any event, since by the early 1750s Fredersdorf is in no shape for the army, obviously. And no gossip seems to have told them about Georgii, so those two rumors might be entirely unrelated. But they might have a common origin, and that origin could be a temporary distance between Fritz and Fredersdorf in the summer of 1741; if so, and if Fredersdorf was indeed with Fritz in the field instead of home in Berlin managing things there as he'd later be, then I could see a decade later the rumor having reached the shape of "the King totally was going to put that upstart back into the army where he belonged!", especially since anyone to whom Tyrconnel & Latouche would be talking to in the early 1750s would be speaking with the frustratation of Fredersdorf not having lost his top position through the years.
(Incidentally, in terms of "how reliable are Tycronnel & Latouche as judges of character: it cracks me up that they report about Heinrich just like mid-1730s envoys report about Fritz, that he's smart but into arts and leisure, not military minded like the King at all, and not likely to do anything soldlierly ever. As with Crown Prince Fritz, you can see why they got this impression, and yet... (Evidentaly no one told them about the Heinrich & AW "how about another war" RPG in which Heinrich played Fritz.) The sole reason why they bring up Heinrich at all, btw, is that they wonder what would happen if AW became King. They do report he values his younger brother's advice a lot and thus think Heinrich would end up as a key voice in the next regime.)
Third possibility: Fredersdorf took action that drove Georgii to suicide. Most likely avenue, if you ask me, from the guy who was later--or already?--in charge of Fritz's spy ring: digging up some dirt on Georgii and blackmailing him with it. Georgii then commits suicide before the King can find out, which Fredersdorf did or didn't expect, but either way takes advantage of.
Now that's definitely an option. One doesn't become and stay a successful consigliere by playing nice. And if Georgii did something blackmail-worthy, Fredersdorf could have told himself he was just looking out for Fritz anyway. (Note: no poisoning attempts under his watch. Glasow was after.)
Pointed gesture seems possible. Especially if Fredersdorf was used to one kind of Fritz, and maybe did something that Crown Prince Fritz would have been fine with, but touchy new King, post-Mollwitz, still trying to prove himself, got snippy about. Fredersdorf then had to rapidly adjust to new boundaries with the King.
Maybe it's just hindsight, but I doubt Fritz was seriously thinking about letting him go in any shape or form. But Fritz has control issues, and kicking Fredersdorf out for a few nights might have been a gesture that reassured him that he was still in control. Before Fredersdorf re-learned how to keep this from ever happening again.
*nods* They were both still in a completely new situation in that year, which is why the date is so significant.
It's also possible they had an arrangement whereby of course the King gets to have casual sex--what king (other than weirdo FW) doesn't?--and when Fritz wants some privacy for it, gossip around the king fleshes this story out. Anyone who knows what a celebrity and a tabloid is knows that the new king is going to have stories told about him that are wildly exaggerated or outright fabricated.
Oh absolutely. And envoys are prone to bick up the more sensational rumors to report, not the boring normal scale ones. Speaking of rumors: you can bet that if Voltaire would have heard gossip of either variation re: a temporary Fritz/Fredersdorf fallout back in the day (i.e. either "Fritz was going to sack him for a handsome subaltern, UNTIL" or "Fritz was going to put him back into the army, UNTIL), he'd have included it in either the pamphlet or the memoirs, so it's interesting that he didn't, given he of course interacted with the French embassy people all the time.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Could be, or if it's unrelated to Fritz, suddenly going from poverty (Pomeranian peasant) to plenty makes a *lot* of people go money-crazy. We saw how Fritz reacted to the sudden relief from a deprived childhood! Fredersdorf is subject to the same aspects of human psychology that Fritz is. Some people don't react that way, but many do. Plus, couples that agree on how to handle money have an easier time than couples that don't. Yes, the rank difference means they're not just a couple, but if Fritz isn't driving Fredersdorf crazy with his obsession with getting and spending money, that might help Fredersdorf keep his chill over the years.
But according to the Free Masons I know, it's "du" all the way, because, you know, brothers, at least during lodge meetings and also when talking to each other a deux elsewhere.
Interesting! I wonder if it was the same in the 18th century. Clearly it wasn't in writing, not when a monarch was involved. At lodge meetings, though...I like to imagine Fredersdorf getting to "du" him!
how Eichel is practically invisible and it's impossible to get a hold of him (and bribe him to spy on Fritz)...Fredersdorf has so much money of his own by now that they can't bribe him for their purposes, either.
Haha, it's a rough life being a foreign envoy.
And if Georgii did something blackmail-worthy, Fredersdorf could have told himself he was just looking out for Fritz anyway.
This is an excellent point. Back when we decided MacDonogh's "Fredersdorf pocketed small sums" referred to Tyrconnell's "Fredersdorf accepted payment for forwarding your petition on to Fritz" accusation I went through Fredersdorf's probable thought process (at least to generate a headcanon for fic purposes), and concluded that it would be very easy Fredersdorf to rationalize this as him not being corrupt, i.e. that he would never allow money to influence him to do anything against Fritz's best interests, but all other things being equal wrt Fritz's best interests, if you wanted something *from* Fritz, you might as well pay for the privilege. He might even have seen it as weeding out frivolous requests.
Digging up dirt on people Fritz is showing an unnerving new interest in might fall under that same umbrella of looking out for him in a way that conveniently aligns with the interests of the consigliere.
(Note: no poisoning attempts under his watch. Glasow was after.)
Indeed, and Blanning claims that the poisoning is only one of two accusations that have been made against Glasow, and that the true crime isn't known. Münchow, Jr. certainly thought there was a poisoning attempt, but Münchow, Jr. is not the source of all truth.
especially since anyone to whom Tyrconnel & Latouche would be talking to in the early 1750s would be speaking with the frustratation of Fredersdorf not having lost his top position through the years.
Yeah, Fredersdorf was in a position to collect a lot of malicious gossip. People were bitter.
you can bet that if Voltaire would have heard gossip of either variation re: a temporary Fritz/Fredersdorf fallout back in the day (i.e. either "Fritz was going to sack him for a handsome subaltern, UNTIL" or "Fritz was going to put him back into the army, UNTIL), he'd have included it in either the pamphlet or the memoirs
Ooh, you're right. Voltaire would have told us if he'd known about it. He's pretty bitchy about Fredersdorf, for obvious reasons.
Fredersdorf...sat down at Friedrich's side, where he belonged.
I just wanted to say, this would make an excellent concluding line to a fic or scene in a fic about the handsome hussar! :)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Absolutely, that's very true. And unlike most of Heinrich's faves, he didn't waste that money he suddenly received but made it multiply. *suddenly imagines Fredersdorf as Scarlett O'Hara vowing "I will never go hungry again!" and becoming a capitalist extraordinaire in the second part of Gone with the Wind.*
At lodge meetings, though...I like to imagine Fredersdorf getting to "du" him!
Same!
Back when we decided MacDonogh's "Fredersdorf pocketed small sums" referred to Tyrconnell's "Fredersdorf accepted payment for forwarding your petition on to Fritz" accusation I went through Fredersdorf's probable thought process (at least to generate a headcanon for fic purposes), and concluded that it would be very easy Fredersdorf to rationalize this as him not being corrupt, i.e. that he would never allow money to influence him to do anything against Fritz's best interests, but all other things being equal wrt Fritz's best interests, if you wanted something *from* Fritz, you might as well pay for the privilege. He might even have seen it as weeding out frivolous requests.
*nods* BTW, I wonder whether McDonogh is basing this on the same Tyrconnel/Latouche letter that I was quoting from? Because it, Tyrconnel/Latouche continue after "but enough of this", in the very next sentence: This favourite isn't supposed to be unbribable, but is would be too late to win him over now; for he is very rich and has shares from all the fairs, all the defeats and all the monopolies.
It's worth noting they're talking rumor/reputation rather than personal experience here, i.e. the phrasing doesn't sound like Tyrconnel, personally, had to pay Fredersdorf for advancing a petition, but like he's talking about Fredersdorf's reputation in general. Or maybe McDonogh is referring to a different letter where Tyrconnel does talk about a bribe he had to make?
Anyway, given that Fritz accepted money from all and sunder in the Crown Prince years without letting this influence him in his future policies one bit (Seckendorff: you can say that again!!!), I could see Fredersdorf conclude he's entitled to do the same, i.e. accept money, as long as he doesn't actually try to manipulate Fritz accordingly. Maybe they even had an arrangement where Fredersdorf tells him what the current bribing rates are and who offers most, because that's telling about the respective envoys and their nations?
Indeed, and Blanning claims that the poisoning is only one of two accusations that have been made against Glasow, and that the true crime isn't known. Münchow, Jr. certainly thought there was a poisoning attempt, but Münchow, Jr. is not the source of all truth.
No, but Lehndorff backs him up in his diary, writing the gossip down as it happened during the easter holidays of 1757. Again, could simply be that this was the official explanation to cover for another reason, but the story certainly was there and believed in 1757, Münchow Jr isn't misremembering this bit decades later. What he contributes is that based on his own experience as a page, he thinks it might have been discovered because Fritz had people serving him his coffee or chocolate take a spoon of it first in a playful manner.
Yeah, Fredersdorf was in a position to collect a lot of malicious gossip. People were bitter.
Absolutely, and we shouldn't lose sight of the possibility these stories are no more fact based than "Prisoner Fritz is now wearing a beard and wild hair and long nails!", "Amalie has lots of illegitimate children and burned some in her fireplace" (Lehndorff notes that one down while simultanously saying it was ridiculous and that Amalie had a habit of adopting street strays of which, since it was the 7 Years War going on, there were an increasing lot), "AW couldn't count or write until Fritz became King", and, of course, the immortal "Let them eat cake" misattribution to Marie Antoinette. Fredersdorf, as the commoner who managed to remain Fritz' closest confidant from 1731 to 1757, would have been one of the most envied and resented people in the kingdom, and thus a lightning rod for malicious stories.
So, to recapitulate, we have the following possibilities:
1.) Nothing happened beyond possibly Fritz wanting to have privacy for some kind of action in his tent. Rumours took it from there and became ever more extravagant in the retelling.
2.) Georgii the handsome hussar did happen, and with bad timing, too, because it was just at the time when Fritz and Fredersdorf were still readjusting to the changes coming from Fritz' new warrior absolute king self, Fritz wanted to make a pointed gesture to reassure himself he was boss (after Mollwitz would be psychologically ideal), and Fredersdorf starts to wonder whether Zernikow could have been meant as a farewell gift and he's being eased out of Fritz' life, and decides to take action (by putting Georgii under intense scrutiny).
1.) would be nicer for rl, but 2.) certainly is more conductive to fanfiction! One would, of course, have to figure out what kind of dirt Fredersdorf then unearths on Georgii that leads Georgii to shoot himself. Gambling debts is traditional but would not work in this case, because who doesn't have those? Georgii responding to being newly favoured by the King with taking bribes could be blown off by Georgii with the same rationale we speculated on for Fredersdorf above. Hm.... I know! Georgii turns out in his free time to have composed odes to MT! Okay, more seriously, some kind of Austrian connection is the only thing I can think of right now.
Or: wait! My inner pulp fiction plotter awakens! Georgii, whose name rounds Russian anyway, has orginally come to Fritz' attention by a rec letter from the (recently) late Suhm, who supposedly met this fine young gent at St. Petersburg. Fredersdorf finds evidence that this letter was forged and someone coldbloodedly exploited Fritz' affection and grief for Suhm. This, Fritz would not forgive! And now that Georgii actually has gotten to know him a little, he nows that. Ergo suicide. (If faking a Suhm rec letter is not enough, then we could escalete it to "not only was the rec letter faked but Georgii POISONED Suhm (in the service of whichever enemy Suhm had), which Fredersdorf discovers and then gives Georgii an ultimatum).
I just wanted to say, this would make an excellent concluding line to a fic or scene in a fic about the handsome hussar! :)
*beams*
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
That is an excellent image. I love it. Scarlett's one of my problematic faves.
At lodge meetings, though...I like to imagine Fredersdorf getting to "du" him!
Same!
Better yet, I like to imagine Fritz liking it. The same way he secretly likes Fredersdorf swapping out a coffee order for chocolate. It's lonely at the top, and as long as he feels safe enough, he craves emotional topping all the more for so thoroughly depriving himself of it.
Or maybe McDonogh is referring to a different letter where Tyrconnel does talk about a bribe he had to make?
Good question. You'd have to ask MacDonogh. He certainly doesn't say in his book. He rattles off several sentences about Fredersdorf, then at the end of the paragraph has a single footnote listing several sources, none of them primary and at least one of them suspect: Richter, Hamilton, Dehio (that encyclopedia of art monuments you were looking at in Stabi), Leuschner, and Fontane.
Anyway, given that Fritz accepted money from all and sunder in the Crown Prince years without letting this influence him in his future policies one bit (Seckendorff: you can say that again!!!), I could see Fredersdorf conclude he's entitled to do the same, i.e. accept money, as long as he doesn't actually try to manipulate Fritz accordingly.
Exactly what Fredersdorf said to Fritz in my head! Reference to Seckendorff and all. :D
Maybe they even had an arrangement where Fredersdorf tells him what the current bribing rates are and who offers most
Could be. It did occur to me that Fritz might have approved of this arrangement. (Although if so, I'd be very surprised if he didn't take a cut.)
Hm.... I know! Georgii turns out in his free time to have composed odes to MT!
HAHA.
Fredersdorf finds evidence that this letter was forged and someone coldbloodedly exploited Fritz' affection and grief for Suhm. This, Fritz would not forgive!
NEITHER WOULD I. I have an irrational soft spot for Suhm, current second favorite boyfriend. (Objectively, I know Fredersdorf was the best, and normally he would push all my buttons like whoa, but...this is a very topsy-turvy fandom for me in many respects. I still love you, Fredersdof! You're the best! I'm thrilled every time you show up in a fic!)
(If faking a Suhm rec letter is not enough, then we could escalete it to "not only was the rec letter faked but Georgii POISONED Suhm (in the service of whichever enemy Suhm had), which Fredersdorf discovers and then gives Georgii an ultimatum).
OMG.
Nice way(s) to make the most of the possible Russian connection, though! Also good job making it so Fredersdorf really *is* just looking out for Fritz. ;)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Heeee! Okay, this is all great. (I don't think Georgii needs to posion Suhm, I think it's actually more heartbreaking if he just exploited Fritz's feelings for Suhm.)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Now, could be Czarina Anna's (who's then reigning unless I'm mistaken, this is pre Elizabeth's coup) Duke of Curland wants to place a spy near Fritz to have an eye on the new Prussian monarch, and they think dying Suhm + Fritz liking handsome man = chance to plant spy. But if we don't want too much international intrigue, than let's say Georgii was a husar who didn't get anywhere in Russia, really wanted that job in Prussia and one day in the tavern heard Suhm's secretary complain that all these letters from the Crown Prince/New King are headache to keep straight, expecially those with requests for BOOK LOANS. Georgii befriends the secretary who is maybe somewhat irked that Suhm, urgently hurrying home despite being in a bad state of health, intens to leave him behind, and so can persuade the secretary to forge him a rec letter. At this point he just figures it'll get him a good comisssion in the army, nothing more, and that once he's there, he'll prove himself so no one will ask Suhm whether he really knows this guy. But then the unexpected combination of Suhm actually dying and Fritz noticing Georgii when told that Suhm recced him, enough to have a short chat with him happens, and Georgii can't resist, he puts it on thick with how tight he was with Suhm etc. Presto!
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Chronology
May 30, 1740: FW dies.
July 1740: Fritz and Suhm finally get on the same page about Suhm definitely wanting to join his court.
Late August/early September 1740: Suhm sets out from St. Petersburg.
Approx. October 1, 1740: Suhm arrives in Warsaw, too sick to travel further.
October 17, 1740: Czarina Anna dies.
October 20, 1740: HRE Charles VI dies.
November 8, 1740: Suhm dies in Warsaw.
April 10, 1741: Mollwitz.
Summer 1741: Georgii episode (supposedly).
November (O.S.)/December 1741: Elizaveta's coup.
So not only does the Georgii/Suhm timing line up, but Fritz's grief will be fresh. GRRRR.
And yes, Anna died in late 1740. That was a year of European monarch turnover, what with her, MT's dad, and FW all going.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Details: Suhm had a wife and daughter, right? Or just the daughter? Whom Fritz took care of? How old/young was she? If she's a small kid, there's no reason why she should have known some hussar her father recced, and it's not a problem. If she's a bit older, she could be perhaps the one who gives Fredersdorf the key clue (perhaps she knows Dad didn't write any rec letters for army people that last year, something like that)? Because going by how Fredersdorf was the one to organize the taking care of Keyserlingk's daughter, I'm assumung he'd also have been in charge of taking care of Suhm's relations.
Question: if Georgii was partly a pointed gesture on Fritz' part, what could Frederdorf have done which Crown Prince Fritz would have been okay with, but new King Fritz post Mollwitz would not?
Suhm family history
:-(
I also think it makes more sense if Georgii isn't a professional spy but just someone whose first lie escalates, snowball-wise, until he can't take anything back even if he wanted to.
Agreed!
Details: Suhm had a wife and daughter, right? Or just the daughter? Whom Fritz took care of? How old/young was she?
Detective Mildred reporting with ALL the details!
Immediate family
The wife, Charlotte von der Lieth, was dead. At the time of his death, Suhm had a sister (Hedwig) and a brother (Nicolas), three (Preuss) or five (Wikipedia) sons, and one daughter. Perhaps five sons total and three surviving sons, given the rate of infant and child mortality? Fritz invited them all to Berlin and took care of the kids and unmarried sister, who was acting in loco parentis to the kids since the death of their mother.
Nicolas was the one who notified Fritz of the death. He had been in Warsaw at the time, so he must have been there ether because, as a Saxon, he was attending the Saxon-Polish court (I remember Suhm being exempted because of his health), or because he had gone there to be at his ailing brother's bedside. The former is more likely, but since Suhm was there for over a month, the latter's not impossible. It's possible the entire family was there, but I don't have confirmation on that. I'm not actually sure whether he took Hedwig and some or all of the kids to St. Petersburg, or left them in Saxony.
Hedwig lived in Berlin until her death nearly 33 years later, receiving a pension from Fritz. The kids were all educated under Fritz's long-distance supervision, and were given commissions and pensions as soon as they were old enough to enter the army.
The eldest son was named Ernst Ulrich Pierre, and he lost a leg in Fritz's service at Prague (1757). In 1759, he was given the title of councilor of war and the job of postmaster.
He died age 61/62 in May 1785, having in turn recommended *his* kids to Fritz. So in 1741, he would have been about 17/18. Definitely old enough to have had some idea what was going on politically, and as we've seen, possibly to have been at his father's side in St. Petersburg and at his deathbed in Warsaw. And even old enough to be in Silesia in 1741 if we want.
According to Preuss, the sister, for whom I don't have a name, married a Lieutenant-Colonel von Keith, ADC to the king*, in December 1750, Fritz having given permission in October 1750 at the request of Field Marshal (that would be James) Keith. Presumably the two Keiths are relatives.
Oh, wait, I found names! Margrethe Albertine Conradine (the name is given in Danish, so spellings may vary). The Keith she married is named Robert Baronet Keith, born March 16, 1715 in London. Two surviving sons and one daughter who died young. Oh, check it out, I have birth and death dates for her. March 13, 1725 - February 16, 1785. So she's actually 15 when her father dies, and 25 when she marries. And she and her oldest brother die within a couple months of each other.
* I wonder if this is why Peter Keith, also a lieutenant-colonel in 1750, gets listed as an ADC to Fritz in some sources but not others. Of course, since Lehndorff says Peter got an invitation to join Fritz at camp in autumn 1753, Peter Keith could *also* have been a Lt. Col. Keith ADC to Fritz, at least temporarily. A confusion of Keiths indeed!
Other Relatives and Digressions
Suhm's father, Burchard, had been an ambassador as well, in his case to France. There were six daughters and seven sons from that marriage, so our Suhm came from a large family. Burchard used to take at least two of his sons to work, Ulrich (our Suhm) and his younger brother Nicolas, and trained them up in diplomacy. According to the dissertation, this kind of diplomatic apprenticeship was a not uncommon practice. Both Ulrich and Nicolas grew up to be ambassadors. At least two of Burchard's other sons also held important military and leadership position.
Ooh, you know what? Our Suhm, Ulrich, could well have followed in the family tradition and had his oldest son with him in St. Petersburg for a couple years of training around age 16, before he (I assume) gets sent to university. The younger kids can stay in Dresden in more congenial surroundings, with aunt/surrogate mom. Oldest son didn't end up being a diplomat, because he ended up in the Prussian military, but our Suhm didn't know that was going to happen. So Ernst would be perfectly placed to tip Fredersdorff off.
Suhm also had an uncle by the same name, who was a Danish admiral (the family is Danish in origin), whom schemer Seckendorff tried to win over to Imperial service, but he refused. Possibly because he was a good Protestant, says Wikipedia.
Vaguely related tangent: Wikipedia also tells me that Augustus the Strong's mother, Anna Sophia, was Danish, and our branch of the Suhm family came with her to Dresden when she married the Elector. Anna Sophia was super intellectual and reserved, her husband was all militaristic, and they had a somewhat distant marriage. When Augustus the Strong converted to Catholicism to become king of Poland, his wife refused to convert with him. To punish her, he gave his son and heir to his mother to raise. (Continuing with the theme of 18th century heirs being taken away from their mothers, often to be raised by their grandmothers.) Danish Mom Anna Sophia was also a devout Lutheran (so this really was about punishment and not religion), and tried to keep future Augustus III from converting, but failed. He ended up converting in 1712 so he could marry an Austrian archduchess.
Our Suhm
Ulrich Friedrich von Suhm attended the University of Geneva. He was envoy to Berlin from 1720-1730. According to Wikipedia and a genealogy site, he married Charlotte on November 1, 1721. In 1727, FW threatened to hang him because he was mad at actions of the Saxon ministers, who were mad at him over illegal recruiting practices. Suhm fled Prussia, and Augustus made him go back.
Charlotte died in 1730. I don't know what month. In January of that same year, Suhm was dismissed as envoy to Prussia and was pensioned off. At that point, he divided his time between Berlin and Dresden, until the St. Petersburg posting. He received his assignment in late 1736, and arrived in St. Petersburg in early 1737. He asked for his dismissal in June 1740, and received it several weeks later (the mail took time to go back and forth). He died in Warsaw in November 1740.
Saxon Diplomatic History
Because I found a dissertation on the subject in the 1694-1763 period, lol. It's in German, but I did my best, and it gave me names I could google.
Prussia
Ulrich Friedrich von Suhm, our Suhm, was envoy to Prussia from 1720-1730, as we've seen. I had been wondering and wondering what happened in 1730, and came up with a whole headcanon that's now been exploded, and based on that headcanon, wrote a whole scene for the fix-it fic that I now have to decide what to do with.
Turns out, in the autumn of 1729, the Saxons (possibly at the advice of Suhm himself), decided that what they really needed was someone suitable for attending FW's tobacco parliament, otherwise they were never going to get anywhere. I'm only surprised it took them 9 years to come to this conclusion! So they sent Christian Ernst von Polenz, a military man. From the middle of September 1729, he was stationed alongside Suhm, hung out at Wusterhausen, and had FW's favor. But he wasn't being nearly as diplomatically successful as Seckendorff (who was, really?), so the Saxons replaced him with Moritz Karl von Lynar. We'll see more of Lynar later.
From January 1730, Lynar was the sole Saxon envoy to Prussia, which means Suhm must have been honorably dismissed at that point. ("We're sorry what we need is a heavy drinker in the army who enjoys hunting and crude jokes, and that you can't fake it. It's not you, it's FW.") But in November 1730 (oh, *man*, I want to see Lynar's envoy report about the execution!), FW asked for Polenz back, and got him.
This is kind of hilarious, in light of Fritz's oft-quoted reaction when he heard Suhm had accepted an assignment to St. Petersburg. "This barbarous court needs those men who know how to drink well and fuck vigorously. I don't think you'd recognize yourself in this description. Your delicate body is the custodian of a fine soul, spiritual and penetrating."
Russia
Which leads me to talk about Suhm's posting to Russia. Apparently what happened was that Lynar, his short-lived successor in Prussia, had been posted to Russia in 1733--okay, so what happened was that Lynar was postmaster general, and in 1733 he got sent to Russia to announce that Augustus had died and been succeeded as Elector of Saxony by his only legitimate son Augustus III, and that the Polish throne was open (the War of the Polish Succession is about to happen). Lynar then hung out in St. Petersburg alongside le Fort, the current envoy, for almost a year, before Lynar got promoted to sole envoy.
Then, Lynar starts having an affair with Anna Leopoldovna, niece of the Czarina Anna, future mother of Ivan VI, and future regent of Russia. His enemies intrigue against him, and Saxony is forced to recall him. But because it's so nice to have somebody on the good side of someone with that much influence and potential future influence, they're planning on sending him back as soon as they can. But for now, they need a replacement.
Headcanon that they look around for envoys who have exhibited some skill at getting on the good side of the future ruler, and settle on Suhm, BFF of Crown Prince Fritz. :P
So Suhm goes to Russia in 1737. He's not informed about Lynar/Anna! In 1740, as we know, he requests his recall, and gets it. The Saxons consult the Russian envoy in Dresden about Suhm's successor, and they insist on having Lynar back. The Saxons are cool with this, since by now, his mistress is running the country. But it takes about a year before this is all settled, and when Lynar's on his way back to Russia in late 1741, he learns that Anna, now regent for her baby son Ivan VI, has been overthrown by Elizaveta. So he gives up on this whole project and stays in Saxony.
France
Our Suhm's father, Burchard von Suhm, was the Saxon ambassador to France from 1709 to 1720. He and his son Nicolas were present at Utrecht in 1713 for the famous conference and signing of the resulting peace agreements. Burchard died in office in Paris in 1720.
He was succeeded by Carl Heinrich von Hoym, whom we've seen before. He was guy who showed up in Katte's species facti as having discouraged the escape attempt at Zeithain. When we dug into his background, we found that that he "was the Saxon ambassador to Versailles, who had recently returned to Saxony. He apparently had many enemies there and in other courts (including Berlin and Vienna), and was imprisoned three times, before finally committing suicide in prison in 1736. Wikipedia tells me one of the charges, which it believes is trumped-up, was impregnating his niece."
Mail delivery
The dissertation very conveniently told me how long, on average, it took for envoy reports to get from various courts to Dresden. This is the sort of thing I'm extremely interested in!
Three to four days from Berlin, a week from Munich, mostly eight days from Copenhagen, about ten days from Paris and Stockholm, thirteen to eighteen days from Turin, three weeks from St. Petersburg. (I can tell from Fritz's correspondence with Suhm that it was about 2 weeks between Rheinsberg/Berlin and St. Petersburg.)
Addendum on the kids
OMG wait! I found more details on the kids. Maybe my headcanon for Suhm's dismissal/retirement works after all, somewhat modified. Check this out. Birth and death dates for all the kids.
Jakob Heinrich: September 19, 1722 - February 11, 1733
Ernst Ulrich Peter: December 6, 1723 - 1785 (dying letter in May)
Margarethe Albertine Conradine: March 13, 1725 - February 16, 1785
Nicolas: October 23, 1726 - 1746
Burchard Siegfried Carl: September 5, 1728 - 1783
Frederik Christian: January 3, 1730 - March 9, 1732
I was right about two of them dying young and that accounting for the discrepancy between 3 sons and 5 sons.
So my headcanon was that Suhm stepping down in 1730 had something to do with his wife's death. Then I found the account of Polenz and the tobacco parliament and all that, and that made it clear it was political rather than personal reasons. But even so, Suhm was left as co-envoy until 1730, so I thought maybe his wife's death was still the trigger for his retirement.
Then when I found out Lynar was sole envoy starting in January, I thought, "Naah. What are the odds she died before that posting? Less than 1/12." But now I find Charlotte giving birth to a child on January 3 in 1730. The child does survive, but dies at age 2. You tell me what her most likely cause of death is. I'm thinking it was a difficult birth for both of them. (Or he just died of whatever kids died of back then, which was a lot of things.)
See, if Polenz can be co-envoy with Suhm, and be dismissed because he's doing a bad job and get replaced by Lynar, how come Suhm has to step down for Lynar? We've seen other co-envoys, like von Johnn and Løvenørn, and le Fort and Lynar in Russia. Plus Suhm seems to be in favor with the Saxon gov't, he just doesn't have the right personality to go drinking and smoking and hunting with FW. But he had been envoy for 10 years, and even after the Saxons decided they needed a military man, evidently still left him as envoy in Berlin. And they used him again as soon as there was an opening in Russia.
I'm thinking devoted and heartbroken husband in January 1730. Combined with ten years of good service and a recognition that the Saxons do need someone more suited to FW's personality, I'm thinking that could get him a bereavement leave that turns into a permanent retirement and pension.
At least I think I can use it for fic! Also, the timing works, as I didn't until tonight have a month in 1730 during which Suhm stepped down, and for fic purposes, I needed it to have been well before the Zeithain camp in June. I was willing to fudge it for the sake of the story, as I've done before, but if it's January, I don't have to!
That leaves me thinking it's fair to leave the other part of my headcanon in place. To wit: In 1727, Suhm flees Prussia under threat of hanging. According to one of my sources, with his family. Then he's ordered and shamed into going back. My headcanon: he leaves the family behind in Dresden for their own safety. It's only a 3-4 day journey between Berlin and Dresden, so he can visit them and impregnate Charlotte as needed (good to know that it's needed), but he puts their safety first.
Mind you, I'm still wondering whether the kids and sister went with him to St. Petersburg. I have no evidence on that either way.
Because going by how Fredersdorf was the one to organize the taking care of Keyserlingk's daughter, I'm assumung he'd also have been in charge of taking care of Suhm's relations.
You're right! That makes a lot of sense. I say Ernst is our most likely tipper-off.
what could Frederdorf have done which Crown Prince Fritz would have been okay with, but new King Fritz post Mollwitz would not?
Good question. I will give this some thought. My brain is in 100% Suhm mode right now, after the previous write-up involving a few hours of digging through sources. lol.
It's been a useful dual-purpose mini-research project, for the Georgii fic (which you're going to write, right?) and my fix-it fic. Which, between Rothenburg and Suhm, has led me deeper into the weeds of 18th century diplomacy than I ever anticipated. :P I think both envoys are getting
ETA: just closed 29 tabs, omg.
Re: Suhm family history
December 19, 1721: Gets pregnant 6 weeks after marriage.
March 6, 1723: Gets pregnant 5.5 months after giving birth.
June 13, 1724: Gets pregnant 6 months after giving birth.
January 23, 1726: Gets pregnant 10 months after giving birth.
December 5, 1727: Gets pregnant 14 months after giving birth.
April 3, 1729: Gets pregnant 7 months after giving birth.
Right around the time she would normally have been getting pregnant (April 1727), they're all busy fleeing the country. The angry letter from Augustus to FW over the hanging incident is March 28, 1727. Now, she could have had a miscarriage sometime in 1727, but I wonder if she did stay in Dresden for a few months, separated from her husband, before they decided it was safe for her to come back to Berlin. (Realistically, she was probably in Berlin in 1730, but for maximum angst reasons, I want her to have fictionally died in Dresden.)
Side note: Would not be an 18th century woman for anything!
Re: Suhm family history
Re: Suhm family history
Re: Suhm family history
Re: Suhm family history
Fredersdorf: does thing that would have been okay with Crown Prince Fritz but not with King Fritz
Fritz: discovers Georgii, is told Georgii was personally recced by Suhm, chats with him; Georgii can't resist going from "yeah, he recced me" to "yeah, we totally were bffs those last months in St. Petersburg, he saw a young guy who needed help, he helped, you know how he was"
Fritz: promotes Georgii to batman and makes pointed gesture of temporarily removing Fredersdorf's unlimited access, possibly even sending him back to Berlin to look after things there (this will later gossip-wise, transform in "Fredersdorf fell out of favour/was put back into his old regiment)
Fredersdorf: checks on Suhm's family, which he'd have done anyway, but is also now for the first time since their initial getting together somewhat worried about his place with Fritz, plus he's distrustful of this Georgii fellow but can't tell whether that's instinct or jealousy, so he asks Ernst whether he knew Georgii
Ernst: Hasn't, but of course it's theoretically possible that his father could have had a protegé without him knowing
Fredersdorf: has Ernst look at original rec letter, which is in proper secretary's handwriting, decides the secretary is key, finds out secretary is now in Dresden, has spy interlude in Dresden, returns to the front several weeks later to give Georgii an ultimatum
Georgii: By now has gotten to know Fritz well enough to conclude he's toast if Fredersdorf does spill the beans = > suicide
Re: Suhm family history
Re: Suhm family history
Re: Suhm family history
Re: Suhm family history
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Ha! Good point.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
I mean, you know I am a Fredersdorf stan, but still I claim Fredersdorf was not insecure or murderous enough to arrange for Georgii's death :P Here are my arguments:
-You pointed out that Fredersdorf was gracious to people below him like Lehndorff, even when he was ill and not his best. That doesn't strike me as a quality of someone who would get rid of a person who was giving him trouble
-Blanning tells me that Fritz bought Fredersdorf an estate immediately after ascending to the throne; do we have a date on this and how does it compare to the date of Georgii? I guess if it was after Georgii then maybe this is evidence against, lol
- or, if Georgii the handsome soldier really did commit suicide: maybe gossip has reversed cause and effect here, and Georgii offed himself after realising he was just a fling and Fritz had no intention of letting him replace Frederdorf?
This makes much more sense to me :P Although, okay, I guess I also would buy
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Besides, if it had been murder staged as suicide, Fredersdorf would have either had to rely on a third party (v. risky, opens him to blackmail) for doing the deed, or do it himself (also very risky, since no matter in which shape he himself was in in 1741, Georgii would have been younger and an active soldier trained to kill in defense of his own life). And if he was afraid of losing Fritz' favour before, which is the entire supposed motive for such a deed, he'd be 100% certain to lose it if Fritz as much as suspected such a thing. No one ever described Fredersdorf as foolish. Whereas if he finds dirt on Georgii and lets things play out, he's in the clear, and Georgi disqualifies himself.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
And if he was afraid of losing Fritz' favour before, which is the entire supposed motive for such a deed, he'd be 100% certain to lose it if Fritz as much as suspected such a thing. No one ever described Fredersdorf as foolish.
I could not agree with this more. Whatever happened to Georgii, Fritz did not suspect Fredersdorf of wrongdoing. And it's doubtful to me that Fredersdorf, wherever he might fall on the continuum from nice to ruthless, would have taken that risk with a touchy king in 1741.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
He had intentionally ignorant people who couldn't read or write as his servants, and not for the usual use, believing that nothing disadvantagegous or dangerous was to fear from them; he was however wrong about this. A case in point was the Chamber Hussar Deesen, for whom he had much favour and grace, but whom he, I don't know why, eventually put in such a great disgrace that the man grew desperate over it. If I'm not mistaken, both (disgrace and desperation) reached their peak in the July of 1775. The King was back then visited by family members, and during this visit he'd ordered that the man shouldn't appear in front of him. When the visited had ended, and the King was back at Sanssouci, he'd ordered the man to him one morning and gave him to the aide who'd read the rapport with the command that he'd be used as a drummer at the corps. The man fell to his feet, but he kicked him away, and when the man clung to his knees again, (the King) had him pulled away by force. Deesen asked the aide who went with him whether he was allowed to pick up his hat; and when he'd gone to his room, he shot himself with a prepared and loaded pistol he'd kept for such a case. When this was reported to the King, he first said "but where did he get the loaded gun from?" and then "I wouldn't have expected such courage from him". But one noticed much disturbance of the temper from the King about this event, and from the questions he put to his people afterwards, one could see this event had been very disagreeable to him. This man had not known how to read or write, but he had someone else read to him something which had been lying on the King's table.
1.) One suicidal hussar might be regarded as a misfortune. Two looks like carelessness, misquote Oscar Wilde.
2.) Yep, that's FW's son, alright.
3.) So clearly this had nothing to do with Fredersdorf, what with him being dead, and Old Fritz in 1775 isn't necessarily like young Fritz in 1741, but presumably this is the kind of thing Georgii might have been afraid would happen, quite independent from what Frederdorf did or did not do?
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Not unexpected to me; I had reported this before, and wasn't sure if it was the Burgdorf's Gregorii under a different name.
Looking back, I didn't recount the full anecdote, but I definitely remember all the details mentioned there, especially "When this was reported to the King, he first said 'but where did he get the loaded gun from?' and then 'I wouldn't have expected such courage from him'."
This is what I did report:
Preuss enumerates the valets/batmen/lackeys that got dismissed for stealing from Fritz. Glasow is mentioned, of course (in a "more on him later" kind of way), and so are a couple others. Including a Deesen, who was accused of stealing from Fritz, and ordered to become a drum-beater in the army as part of his punishment. Well, evidently he couldn't take the humiliation, and on July 23, 1775, shot himself at Sanssouci.
...I can't find any more on this guy, but I was reminded of something you found in Burgdorf: "'The King's love could be deadly. Katte wasn't the only one who lost his life. A young officer, Gregorii, shot himself when Friedrich turned towards a new favourite.'...I wonder if Deesen's first name might be Gregorii, or if Burgdorf might otherwise be reporting the same story under a different name.
Thank you for picking up my past self's slack and translating the full anecdote!
One suicidal hussar might be regarded as a misfortune. Two looks like carelessness, misquote Oscar Wilde.
Haha.
So clearly this had nothing to do with Fredersdorf, what with him being dead, and Old Fritz in 1775 isn't necessarily like young Fritz in 1741, but presumably this is the kind of thing Georgii might have been afraid would happen, quite independent from what Frederdorf did or did not do?
Sounds about right. Theirs was also a much more "death before dishonor" culture than ours, so suicide, while not by any means less tragic, was more likely to present itself as an alternative to disgrace. Which is not to say that everyone chose death, but there was a stronger emphasis on lost honor as the ultimate worst. Witness AW refusing medical treatment.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Yeah!! That's right, he couldn't possibly have done the murder himself :P
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
You know, I've been waiting and waiting for you to weigh in on the whole "Fredersdorf: sudden murder suspect" debate, since you had such strong feelings about the embezzlement. I see you held off until there was a stronger case to be made. ;)
Blanning tells me that Fritz bought Fredersdorf an estate immediately after ascending to the throne; do we have a date on this and how does it compare to the date of Georgii?
A year earlier. Georgii is summer 1741; Fredersdorf got Zernikow in June 1740 (FW died May 30) according to my memory plus
Oh, haha, Rödenbeck refutes Burchardt's recently published "son of merchant in Franconia" account of Fredersdorf's origins. Good for him.
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
You just wait, I'm going to produce an Epic History to rival Zimmermann. It will be called Fredersdorf: The Real Hero.
A year earlier.
Well then! Fritz may have become a different person on ascending to the throne, but that was a person who really liked Fredersdorf :P
Re: Fredersdorf: Prime Suspect? (or: By Jove, I've found it!)
Of course, *we* all know this, but did *Fredersdorf* know this for sure in 1741, when Fritz was making everyone nervous? As
You just wait, I'm going to produce an Epic History to rival Zimmermann. It will be called Fredersdorf: The Real Hero.
I can't wait! (Seriously, please do. Your Fredersdorf secret diary was awesome.)