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Frederick the Great discussion post 9
...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
Re: Peter Keith
Otoh it's mentioned his wife is a born Fräulein von Knyphausen, and the Knyphausens definitely have various Family members at court, so it could be her.
Well, in another passage, Lehndorff mentions dining at the Queen's (the context in which I asked about which queen) with Frau von Keith and playing with her (I assume music), and says she was born a Knyphausen. And we know not just from Lehndorff, but from Fritz's correspondence that Peter was engaged to a Knyphausen in 1742. Lehndorff then proceeds to mention Frau v. Keith a number of times, always positively.* So my first guess is that Frau v. Keith is Peter's wife and Lehndorff just really likes them both. But it did occur to me that I can name 3 Katte-Bismarck marriages off the top of my head, and there are SO MANY Keiths, related and unrelated, and a number of Knyphausens, that it's possible that there was another Knyphausen-Keith marriage. Because it is weird about the son whom there's otherwise no record of.
* During the evacuation of Berlin in 1760, Lehndorff's mother has been staying with Frau v. Keith (Peter's widow?), and Lehndorff mentions that she paid his mother a lot of attention, and that you never forget these kinds of favors.
Your impression of Lehndorff's reporting and the likelihood of Peter dying in Berlin matches mine, but I wanted to check with you, since you've read him all the way through, and as usual, you added wonderful extra details. :)
Also worth considering: the description of Peter's career mentions Fritz put him in charge of the administration of Charlottenburg Palace and of the Tiergarten. Since this is at when the war is still going well for Prussia, there is no sign of evacuation, and the court is still in Berlin, which means Charlottenburg isn't going to administrate itself, and the Tiergarten is as popular a Destination for Berliners as ever.
I had noticed the Charlottenburg and Tiergarten administration responsibilities, and if this overlaps with his academy curator position (which Carlyle records him holding as late as 1752), that's a lot of administration! Of reasonably important things.
It also occurred to me that Lt. Col. Keith staying in Berlin in 1756 at the age of 45 is a different matter from Keith at the age of 30 feeling ashamed of staying in Berlin. Especially since the young one hadn't proved himself and didn't have a bunch of important jobs, but rather had just come out of exile after deserting his post, and was idle in Berlin.
It's also possible, since he died only 4 months into the war, that he was sick, Fredersdorf-style, and thus exempt from service, but since Lehndorff doesn't mention any long illnesses, I'm going to hope that 1) Fritz had him stay home to carry out his important responsibilities and *not die*, 2) he went quickly and painlessly in December.
Yes, I want to write fic about Peter and Fritz and their miscommunications, and in the early 1750s let them have a nice little chat that I'm sure never happened, and when the war comes, Peter stays home and doesn't feel bad about it this time, for a variety of reasons. I just need to decide whether he has kids or not.
Doing the math, Peter was engaged in 1742, and the passage about the cavalier is from 1765, so he could definitely have an adult son by the time. But the silence otherwise is odd.
So if Peter did die in Berlin at the end of December 1756, Fritz might, in fact, have been there - not at his death bed, presumably Lehndorff would have mentioned that, but he could have seen him.
<3 I hope so. I hope it was quick, and I hope he and Fritz got to see each other one last time. Thanks for this tidbit; I might make use of it!
SD is more often the Queen Mother than she is the Queen, but just to make your life more difficult, sometimes she is the Queen, too.
Argh. I had a feeling that would be the case. But okay, I'll assume it's EC that Frau v. Keith (whoever she is) and Lehndorff have dinner with.
To confuse things more, there is a different Lt. Col. v. Keith in 1750, who marries Suhm's daughter. There's also a Colonel Keith in 1770 whom Fritz and Maria Antonia chat about, and based on things Fritz says, I *think* that's the son of James Frances Edward Keith, brother of the more famous Earl Marischal, and the one who died at Hochkirch (after telling Fritz there was no *way* the Austrians weren't going to attack them at night in that exposed spot). I don't think the 1770 Col. Keith can be the same as the one who married Suhm's daughter, unless James is having kids much earlier than Wikipedia mentions.
So now we're up to 8? male Keiths, plus a female Keith née Knyphausen whose husband may or may not be Peter.
And *everybody* goes by their last name, because of course they do. ARGH.
Anyway, many thanks, subdetective
Re: Peter Keith
Quinze later according to German wiki became Blackjack in the US, according to English wiki it‘s 21. Pharao is known as Faro in English. Müller aside, people weren‘t known to ruin themselves at the Prussian court via gambling the way they did at Versailles, but it was a very popular past time, which makes sense if you think about it. Lots of people can participate, you don‘t need to be highly educated or musically talented, and it provides some kicks. For the Prussian court, it became additionally popular during the evacuation times because it was something you could do even when camping out in Spandau or Magdeburg.
Re: Peter Keith
Thank you also for all the info. These little details are so useful. *stores away for possible future fanfic purposes*
Re: Peter Keith - aha!
But you know, I do think not only is this always the same lady, but it's in fact Peter's wife, because on page 428 of v.2, it says: "Everyone is now busy getting into trade. The bank is installed at Jägerhof. Frau v. Keith, whom the King had left Jägerhof to use for her lifetime, is generously recompensed by his Majesty through an annual rent of 1300 Taler instead." Since Jägerhof was in fact the estate given to Peter, that means it is his widow. Which also means Peter had two sons. Congrats, Peter? Göttingen is of course about to become the top university of Germany. (Still boasts of producing the most Nobel Prize winners.)
Also: it occurs to me that if Lehndorff is on such good terms with Peter's wife and later widow and regularly sees her since both attend EC's court, chances are that the two summing-ups he gives of Peter's backstory - once when Peter is still alive, the other, longer one after his death - are most likely than not at least indirectly from the horse's mouth. Including the impression in vol.1 that "the more mature way of his majesty's thinking could only condemn the services that had been rendered to him in his youthful folly, and thus Herr von Keith did not find the reward that would have been appropriate for the ten years of fears and plagues".
Re: Peter Keith - aha!
Had totally missed the part about the two sons, though. Not a childless marriage, then. Congrats, Peter! Also, it's good that he got to send his kids off to university, where I assume he wanted to go but did not get to.
are most likely than not at least indirectly from the horse's mouth. Including the impression in vol.1 that "the more mature way of his majesty's thinking could only condemn the services that had been rendered to him in his youthful folly, and thus Herr von Keith did not find the reward that would have been appropriate for the ten years of fears and plagues".
Horse's mouth meaning Peter, or Fritz? Because to me, it makes perfect sense for this to be one of Peter's explanations for why Fritz was neglecting him (I have whole theories about how Peter was desperately trying to come up with explanations for why Fritz was acting like this, and assuming the worst), but I have a hard time seeing Fritz actually having this convo with Peter, nor does it strike me as the most likely reason for Fritz's behavior.
Thanks so much for figuring out the kids! You and Lehndorff deliver, as always.
One more question: when Lehndorff says Peter had acquired English manners due to his long stay in England, do you have a sense of what that would mean in practice?
Re: Peter Keith - aha!
Peter. I imagine not just his wife but also any new friends would sooner or later ask, so, how come if the King and you were bffs once upon a time, you're not hanging out these days?
English manners: as it so happens, there's a corresponding passage where Lehndorff kindly illuminates for us what he means, because an Englishman says about Charlotte's two sons when they're visiting Berlin that they are "nice boys" - "nette Jungs" - which says Lehndorff only an Englishman would manage to pull off whithout coming across as insulting. So: informal. Remember, the Prussian court is still going by Ancien Regime France etiquette where what to us sounds just like a normal casual comment would simply not be made. (By courtiers. Of Course Fritz makes all kinds of comments all the time.) (So does Voltaire.) Seems the English court Comes across as way more relaxed.
I guess the 19th century provides a switcheroo, in that post revolution France, no matter whether Empire or Restoration or Republic, is now the informal court while the Brits have learned to make the stiff upper lip their national image.
(This is one of the many things striking if you study the Charles II in England - Louis XIV in France era. The Brits are the informal ones seen as unable to control their emo or hilarity. The French are the top of etiquette and of course political power. The stiff upper lip really is a relatively recent phenomenon in Britannia.)
Re: Peter Keith - aha!
*nod* Yes, as Peter's explanation, it makes perfect sense. My headcanon is that it's the explanation Peter gives to other people, because of all possible explanations it's the one that makes him and Fritz both look the best, while silently he's coming up with much more angsty explanations. I mean, Peter, like me, can't help noticing that the Kattes are getting a lot of royal favor, for one thing. (Man, I really want to write this fic.)
Informality: perfect, thank you! Based on Lehndorff's qualifying comment that Peter was so naturally gracious that his English manners weren't offensive, that makes perfect sense.
Re: Peter Keith - aha!
*nods* And even the cousins who probaly saw Hans Herrmann three times a year, if that. Not to mention that two of them were the opposite of helpful. (Though okay, these weren't the ones to get special favour.) You know, now I'm imagining Lehndorff and Peter sharing a glass and sympathizing on the subjects of a) being in love with a Prince who might like you but loves other people way more, and b) the goddam Katte clan. They'll make an obligatory "nothing against dead Hans Herrmann, it's not his fault" disclaimer, and then cut loose because yes, Lehndorff has stuff to say and gossip to share. As they share another life circumstance, they might end up saying, well, at least our wives rock, and so do the kids. Here's to them!
Re: Peter Keith - aha!
True. They both got normal royal favor, though, in the form of repeated promotions up to lieutenant general. Peter got zero promotions. I'm getting the impression he was both better at and (my headcanon) more interested in administration, much like Fredersdorf.
As they share another life circumstance, they might end up saying, well, at least our wives rock, and so do the kids. Here's to them!
You know, I was imagining Lehndorff and Peter parallels, especially in their marriages and kids (though Peter with fewer or hopefully no tragedies). I of course have no evidence for it, the Peter-Knyphausen* marriage could have been the world's most passionate romance, but my headcanon is a marriage made for good solid 18th century considerations, with romance playing a minimal part, and with both of them being stand-up husbands and fathers, and with respect, friendship, and tenderness growing up between the spouses.
* I've seen various spellings of her given name, Oriane and Adriane at least. Sigh.
You know, now I'm imagining Lehndorff and Peter sharing a glass and sympathizing on the subjects of a) being in love with a Prince who might like you but loves other people way more
<3
Yeah, I definitely see Peter carrying some unrequited feelings. The difference in my headcanon being that, partly due to Lehndorff's and Peter's differing personalities and especially due to their differing situations, Peter moves on more in terms of romantic love, and accepts that he had a fling when he was 16, it didn't work out, and they're both different people now. But he got badly burned in 1741/1742, and what he desperately craves is Fritz's approval, a sign that he's not forgotten and Fritz doesn't resent him for 1730.
Which is why I badly want to give him a fic with that conversation where they sit down in 1750 and share their feelings and straighten out their misunderstandings, to mutual shock and closure. (It still ends in Fritz disclaiming all blame for the miscommunication and laying it squarely on Peter's shoulders, of course, but that doesn't matter, because at least now Peter *knows*. He knows he had Fritz's favor all those years he thought he was in disgrace, and now he can move on.)
b) the goddam Katte clan. They'll make an obligatory "nothing against dead Hans Herrmann, it's not his fault" disclaimer,
Oof. Well, my Peter has strong feelings of insecurity around Hans Hermann, the romantic hero who was everything Peter isn't, so while Lehndorff might be able to vent about the Katte clan and feel better, because his beef with them is all events outside Lehndorff's control, Peter's going to be silently dying inside during this part of the convo. If the Kattes are that unworthy, and they *still* have more favor than he does...
It's easy for Lehndorff to attribute the Kattes getting favor to Fritz *insert eyeroll here*. My Peter, in contrast, internalized that he screwed up bigtime in 1730, and now he's just trying to redeem himself and desperately wanting to know if he succeeded.
And if he encouraged the escape attempt, and Katte died, does that mean Peter is partly to blame? Peter wonders. (Emotions aren't rational, and Peter might well have survivors' guilt second only to Fritz's. Besides, he can tell himself that at least Fritz suffered *too*.)
Peter, it occurred to me, is much more likely to have that profile we talked about in the Fredersdorf and stress convo: the people-pleasing outwardly-gracious dying-inside profile that does lead to stress-related illness. Peter died at age 45, most likely in a civilian role in Berlin. Related?
The only thing stopping me from adopting this as headcanon/fic plot point is that he would probably have then had to have chronic illness leading up to his death, and I kind of want him to have been happier than that. Especially if I want him and Fritz to clear things up 6 years before he died*. That said, he could have had relatively mild "it's the 18th century, who's *really* healthy?" physical symptoms that suddenly turned fatal with lack of proper medical care.
(Irl, he could have just had bad genes! Caught a bug. Died of some accident. But that's not a *story*.)
* Irl, I suspect what happened was that Peter was an impeccably behaved people pleaser for years on end, Fritz got the message that he wasn't making a bid for power, Fritz started rewarding him with both more money and more responsibilities, Peter and everyone else got the implicit message that he'd either redeemed himself or else Fritz had just had a lot on his plate in the 40s, and Peter was able to relax a little in the 50s. I hope!