cahn: (Default)
cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2020-01-13 09:09 am
Entry tags:

Frederick the Great discussion post 9

...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!

I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)

Frederick the Great links
selenak: (Émilie du Chatelet)

Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath

[personal profile] selenak 2020-01-16 10:35 am (UTC)(link)
No WONDER everyone thought he died of a broken heart. I would have too.

Yes. I mean, he didn't die literally of it, there was a physical reason, but mind and body are connected, and by early 1758, he'd pretty much lost the will to live. As I said to Mildred on another occasion, it's also that he'd been in no way prepared for this kind of relentless emotional eviscaration, since FW had always had a positive relationship with him, and so, for that matter, had Fritz. What they had prepared him for was that a Hohenzollern prince had to serve the state first and foremost, that this definitely entailed military Service, that there was no higher honor than that of a soldier, and that there was no point without it. There are a couple of letters from Fritz to AW over the years which sound particularly poignant in retrospect but also illustrate the pre-7-Years-War angst free ness of their relationship in stark contrast to what was to come:

When AW is visiting Wilhelmine:

My dear Brother, I am very glad that you arrived in good health in Baireuth, but a day later you would have made me win a wager with Rothenburg. What pleases me the most is that my sister's health is good, which makes me hope that I can have the pleasure of seeing her again this summer.


AW - who is kept from actual government Business - is trying to be a good Crown prince by familiarizing himself with the economy:


My dear brother. I received your letter with great pleasure; I see you all occupied with finances; it is very good that you are informed of everything and that you know everything that is going on. You will even be happy to apply yourself to it more; for a prince of this house who, like you, is called to reign one day, must not be a novice in these matters. He has to be aware of everything to be able to work on his own, and all the study that you will do now, will shorten your future path a lot. Whatever I may be working on, there will still be many good things to do after my death, and if you are aware of the intrinsics of business, and know the combinations, you can have that glory. My letter will seem too serious to you, but, my dear brother, it is absolutely necessary to make reflections and prepare yourself for the employment for which Heaven intends you, and pleasure should never go before duty; duty comes first. We are also indifferent to a soft man, even if the world considers him a useful man, and whatever spirit we may have, we do not advance without application. But it already seems to me that my moralizing is bothering you, and that you wish your old brother to the devil. I am nonetheless with much esteem, my dear brother, your faithful brother and servant
Federic.

-----------------

Very theoretical enquiry by young AW whether or not one should allow doctors to perform an autopsy:

Ah! my dear brother, when one is dead, it is a question of whether one could have lived. The poor milord would have laughed, if he had been able, in the face of his dissecters, seeing his liver in the hand of one, his lungs in that of another, and hearing all the absurdities that the faculty spouted on these occasions. For my part, I have forbidden anyone to open me after my death; it is enough to provide the public with a joke during one‘s life, and it is too much to offer it comedy at the expense of one’s spleen, one’s liver and one’s lungs. My cavalcades have not served me much; I have colic every evening and even stronger nights; I am an old building which is falling apart, and when I work on the roof, the foundation collapses. For you, my dear brother, who are in the vigor of youth, healthy, cheerful, vigorous, it is up to you to enjoy life which has only charms for you, it is up to you to pick flowers, and thorns for me. I am content to add that no one takes more part in your fortune than I do and that no happiness can happen to you for which I am not glad. With these true feelings I am forever, my dear brother, your faithful brother and servant
Federic.


Remember, Fritz couldn't go to the wedding of Wilhelmine's daughter - of whom he was the godfather - though we know from the Fredersdorf letters he really wanted to and had ordered a wedding suit already. This letter to AW about AW going also gives us a glimpse on Fritz' opinion of the Margrave. Frustratingly, I don't know who "Jean-Farine" is supposed to be - Google thinks it might be an allusion to a French children's song, but the only texts I get are about other Songs. Literary figures named Jean-Farine are also so far not googleable. And rl Jean Farines all live later. But anyway, the context is clear:

My dear brother. I want you to have fun at our niece's wedding, and I have no doubt that our brother-in-law Jean-Farine will provide you with comedy. Please give a thousand friendships from me to my sister, and assure her that I am completely mortified at not being able to be at her daughter's wedding, that it was impossible for me to manage it, though I knew at least that of necessity the father would be there.


The first half is -- just -- I think it's actually worse than FW's letter in some ways. I mean, obviously what FW did was far far worse, but you get the sense from FW's letter that he felt at least sort of bad about it, whereas this is just such a refusal to even consider any kind of... And the second half of this letter, coming after that first half -- I can just imagine Heinrich thinking, how dare he talk of a brother whom he loved, after saying that?? -- well, to elaborate on what I said before, I can see there are good psychological reasons why Heinrich didn't ever even try to kill Friedrich, but I also think that one wouldn't have to change very much to get the AU where Fritz was too physically near Heinrich when all this went down and Heinrich went after him in a blind fury.

Indeed. Which is why I'm so curious about that shared day in late September 1758 which Fritz thanks Heinrich for. I mean, by this time Fritz has sent a couple of less awful letters and also, as we can see from Fritz' letter to Amalie about the visit, finally was wise enough to not bring AW up again. But on the other hand, while his letters to Heinrich fretting about Wilhelmine prior to this visit are touching by themselves, how must Fritz going on about how much Wilhelmine means to him, that the ties formed by them being brought up together are indissolvable and there's no love like the love for a sibling with whom one has grown up and he'll never ever be able to get over it if she dies - how must that feel with this letter about AW's death in mind? Even with the intervening months (AW dies in June, Heinrich makes that visit near the end September) offering the time to build up some self restraint.

(Current headcanon: that visit Heinrich paid to a dying Wilhelmine made a difference. He didn't tell her about AW's death, granted, but she knew about the disgrace and had tried to mediate, so maybe she talked about Fritz and tried to explain and/or made Heinrich promise not to get himself into an argument with him as well.)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-01-16 04:16 pm (UTC)(link)
Current headcanon: that visit Heinrich paid to a dying Wilhelmine made a difference.

This makes lots of sense. She also possibly said some things that Heinrich was able to quote to Fritz during the meeting that made Fritz more well-disposed toward Heinrich (regardless of whether it made Heinrich even 0.00000001% more well-disposed toward Fritz).

Frustratingly, I don't know who "Jean-Farine" is supposed to be - Google thinks it might be an allusion to a French children's song, but the only texts I get are about other Songs.

French wiki says:

"He's a Jean-Farine."

He's a fool, a simpleton. This popular term came from floured farces, where the actor who played the character of a fool had the face dusted with flour and the name of Jean-Farine. This is what we have since called the Gilles or the Pierrot.


"Farine," of course, means flour. That seems entirely consistent with Fritz saying brother-in-law Jean-Farine will provide comedy.

Earning my keep as royal librarian with google skills!
selenak: (Wilhelmine)

Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath

[personal profile] selenak 2020-01-16 05:42 pm (UTC)(link)
Royal Librarian is awesome indeed! And why am I not surprised by Fritz' opinion of the Margrave?

(I mean, he's solidly suspiciously neutral in his letters to Wilhelmine, other than - during the time she travels in France - advising her to not mind if her butterly visits other flowers because that is the nature of a butterfly. But yeah. When has Fritz ever liked the s.o. of someone he cares about who is supposed to love him first and foremost?)
selenak: (Wilhelmine und Folichon)

Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath

[personal profile] selenak 2020-01-16 05:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Am definitely going to write that, yes, because it must have been so intense and messed up, and I hope I'll be able to do it justice. Btw, check out our new community for all that I've uploaded of our past collected material! Am currently deciding whether to make one or two posts for the Heinrich and AW material. I mean, I have my write ups for the Heinrich bio, then the Fritz letters to Heinrich (with a very few from him) in general, and then the very specific AW Collection I just did.

And those letters from Fritz are heartbreaking, like, they really are sweet and paternal, and to think about how AW must have felt, emotionally, when Fritz turned on him.

I'm always wondering whether or not to take Fritz' description of Henricus Minor to Ulrike as being like AW (without the bad parts, arghhh) at face value, because it might be another reason why he favoured him, because he thought he had a chance there for a do-over, if Henricus Minor really did resemble him. But of course it doesn't work that way...
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-01-16 06:04 pm (UTC)(link)
I have seen your posts and they are awesome! I am wretchedly tired today, but I have at least made a list of posts of my own to transfer, and it's a long 'un. ;)

Henricus Minor: maybe, or Fritz could just be totally delusional. "Like AW" could just mean "not a terrier" or more specifically, "I used to get along with AW until You-Know-What, and HM died before I could fuck things up with him (let's remember HM was only 19), and so I was getting along with him, which must mean they shared good qualities, like not being a terrier. QED."

(AW: at long last, cornered, displays his inner terrier there at the very end; since it does not compute, Fritz writes it off as those convenient bad advisors.)
Edited 2020-01-16 18:06 (UTC)
selenak: (Wilhelmine und Folichon)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] selenak 2020-01-17 07:45 am (UTC)(link)
On the other hand, I REALLY like having all the material in posts like that.

It's also great being able to edit, i.e when I find another Fredersdorf letters quote, say, I can put it into the main post instead of having to post another comment.

Re: discussion - well, how about this:

For ongoing discussions, like currently about AW-Fritz-Heinrich, we use your posts, as per usual. If you, by the collection of the material, feel inspired to make another, new comment, it would in fact be more sensible to make it at the community, as your old Posts already have 300 plus comments.

Linking the discussions themselves: Maybe once we're done uploading, but honestly, I think potential new readers will be very busy reading through the main post material to begin with! ;)

Fritz being sweet towards AW: I know. Remember when a long time ago we had no idea how he and Wilhelmine stood towards the younger sibs? About the only thing I knew back then was that things did end badly with AW, so I assumed they'd had a distant relationship at best.
Edited 2020-01-17 07:49 (UTC)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-01-17 01:59 pm (UTC)(link)
I also think the ability to edit is a huge plus and one of my reasons for wanting to create a community.

I like your idea about commenting procedures. The only downside is those of us without paid accounts can only subscribe to 25 notifications at once.

Oh, who am I kidding? Thanks to my word-counting and comment-counting script, I practically already have a notification system I wrote myself, with no service limits. :P I'd just need to tweak that.

Okay, problem solved. :D

Remember when a long time ago we had no idea how he and Wilhelmine stood towards the younger sibs?

A long time ago, we had no idea about a lot of things. We've all come a long way! If it weren't for you two, I would have read/reread two Kindle bios of Fritz, written some uninformed fanfic, and called it a day. I am profoundly grateful for the educational opportunities.
iberiandoctor: (Default)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] iberiandoctor 2020-01-17 04:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Guys, what I think the community needs is a definitive timeline/chronology. Is there one? If so, it should be helpfully stapled to the top of this thing and made mandatory reading.
selenak: (Default)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] selenak 2020-01-17 04:33 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a very good idea, but since Mildred is the queen of Dates, I'm shamelessly saying she'd be the best to do it!
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-01-17 04:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Like...how many dates do you guys want? Serious question. A chronology of everything we've talked about is going to be absurdly long, but Queen Mildred is extremely bad at summarizing.

I was also thinking there should be a sticky posts with recs for books, shows, etc. Like [personal profile] cahn's links post, but with an annotated bibliography of English and German bios.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-01-17 05:45 pm (UTC)(link)
This sounds good!

To encourage brevity, what if all entries for the specific year were made under that year?

What do you mean?

I don't even know what bio of Fritz I should check out;

Ugh, I wish I could be more help, but physical books, you know. The one I recommended a while back when someone asked was Blanning; very recent (2015? I forget), tries not to buy into centuries of mythologizing but actually look at evidence, gay but not "Everyone is GAY GAY GAY and bi people do not exist and neither does an experimentation/questioning phase!" I would also add that it's light on politics/war (but has a very interesting take on Fritz's strengths and weaknesses as a general that has informed mine, after years of exposure to the Mythologizing of Frederick the Great), but heavy on arts and music, which might be an extra feature for you.

So if you wanted to start somewhere, that's not a bad place. I do need to reread it, though, now that I know far more than when I read it back in June or whatever. I might find lots of issues that I didn't pick up on at the time. (So far the big one is his presentation of the Marwitz episode like he actually knows what happens.)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-01-17 07:31 pm (UTC)(link)
1 Jun 1740 [I know this isn't right but I can't easily find the date reference] Friedrich is crowned King Friedrich II in Prussia

That's because he was never crowned! He went for cheap homage ceremonies, appeared in public, waved at people, gave out some medals with his image on them, went home. FW had done the same. The last coronation in Prussia was the first King (in) Prussia, Grandpa F1, who was a big spender.

Coronations are expensive and decadent and (of concern to Fritz) not for enlightened, non-superstitious monarchs!

Okay, so you want fewer items but more detail per item than I was going to go for. I suppose that makes sense if it's meant as an introductory resource and not just a reference for the initiated.

I may also do a longer chronology with less detail per entry as a reference work for the initiated (who may also be plotting fic, haha).

Blanning is also a lighter read than a lot of the other biographers, in that it took me less time to read 600 pages by him than to read 300 pages by other biographers. So it's a good intro to the topic for that reason as well. It's also ten bucks.

I will go back to Wilhelmine but I've sort of slewed over to the AW letters for now :P :)

There's a lot to read! I've started like ten things that I haven't finished. (I have a Trello list for them, lol.) Plus I'm about to finish rereading MacDonogh, and then I want to reread Blanning, with all this new knowledge under my belt.
iberiandoctor: (Default)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] iberiandoctor 2020-01-18 03:52 am (UTC)(link)
Coming over lateish to echo my support for cahn’s suggested chronology format. Year by year, and the various highlights in each year, with no more than a line or two describing said highlight. Major events in bold. (And then people could come back and insert links or footnotes to said events if they wanted to.) As we all know, chronos are invaluable for the casual reader wanting to deep dive, academics, and fic XD

Relatedly, is there a good, non-overly aggrandising book or resource as to Fritz’s military strategy? I’m only familiar with the standard myth of the war genius general, mostly from Berlin visits and familiarity with the post-Fritz Napoleonic wars, albeit from the non-Prussian side of things (thanks, Mis fandom!). I see you’ve recommended Blanning to cahn, which probably means I should wait for her to be done with it and make free with her summarised views :)

(I’m also interested in resources on the Prussian military uniform, but that’s probably just my thing for uniforms.)

Prussian military uniforms

[personal profile] selenak - 2020-01-18 07:19 (UTC) - Expand
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Tracking Rheinsberg

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-01-17 05:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Ah, yes, I'd forgotten about that option. Thanks for reminding me!

The community is turning out to have many benefits. I'm glad we founded it!
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Rheinsberg, the community

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2020-01-18 10:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Finally finished updating and organizing my Katte material and posted it to [community profile] rheinsberg! 20 posts down, only 25 to go!
selenak: (Default)

Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath

[personal profile] selenak 2020-01-26 04:23 am (UTC)(link)