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Frederick the Great discussion post 9
...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)
Frederick the Great links
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
My dear brother. I am very much obliged to you for the compliment of congratulations which you have kindly paid me on the occasion of the success of the last battle, and am convinced of the sincerity of your feelings. Do not complain about me, and remember that it is only your extraordinary and, so to speak, reckless behavior that has spoiled everything. I would have liked for your own reputation that, even if you had no command in the army, you would have been at least present at the above battle to share the glory instead of sitting around uselessly.
I don't even have words. I didn't even want to cut and paste this, it's so awful.
No WONDER everyone thought he died of a broken heart. I would have too.
I went and looked at the AW letters from Trier, and I also noticed that the salutation of Fritz's letter in November is "Monsieur mon frere." UGH. :(((((((
"Doing so honorably" after the public disgrace would of course mean an equally public restitution.
I didn't know that, thank you <3
I've already remarked on that last, indeed-radioactive letter. The last half of it I don't consider all that bad taken in isolation (and, in my case, without the context you have just provided) -- tone-deaf and kind of awful but, I mean, Fritz. The first half is -- just -- I think it's actually worse than FW's letter in some ways. I mean, obviously what FW did was far far worse, but you get the sense from FW's letter that he felt at least sort of bad about it, whereas this is just such a refusal to even consider any kind of... And the second half of this letter, coming after that first half -- I can just imagine Heinrich thinking, how dare he talk of a brother whom he loved, after saying that?? -- well, to elaborate on what I said before, I can see there are good psychological reasons why Heinrich didn't ever even try to kill Friedrich, but I also think that one wouldn't have to change very much to get the AU where Fritz was too physically near Heinrich when all this went down and Heinrich went after him in a blind fury.
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
Yes. I mean, he didn't die literally of it, there was a physical reason, but mind and body are connected, and by early 1758, he'd pretty much lost the will to live. As I said to Mildred on another occasion, it's also that he'd been in no way prepared for this kind of relentless emotional eviscaration, since FW had always had a positive relationship with him, and so, for that matter, had Fritz. What they had prepared him for was that a Hohenzollern prince had to serve the state first and foremost, that this definitely entailed military Service, that there was no higher honor than that of a soldier, and that there was no point without it. There are a couple of letters from Fritz to AW over the years which sound particularly poignant in retrospect but also illustrate the pre-7-Years-War angst free ness of their relationship in stark contrast to what was to come:
When AW is visiting Wilhelmine:
My dear Brother, I am very glad that you arrived in good health in Baireuth, but a day later you would have made me win a wager with Rothenburg. What pleases me the most is that my sister's health is good, which makes me hope that I can have the pleasure of seeing her again this summer.
AW - who is kept from actual government Business - is trying to be a good Crown prince by familiarizing himself with the economy:
My dear brother. I received your letter with great pleasure; I see you all occupied with finances; it is very good that you are informed of everything and that you know everything that is going on. You will even be happy to apply yourself to it more; for a prince of this house who, like you, is called to reign one day, must not be a novice in these matters. He has to be aware of everything to be able to work on his own, and all the study that you will do now, will shorten your future path a lot. Whatever I may be working on, there will still be many good things to do after my death, and if you are aware of the intrinsics of business, and know the combinations, you can have that glory. My letter will seem too serious to you, but, my dear brother, it is absolutely necessary to make reflections and prepare yourself for the employment for which Heaven intends you, and pleasure should never go before duty; duty comes first. We are also indifferent to a soft man, even if the world considers him a useful man, and whatever spirit we may have, we do not advance without application. But it already seems to me that my moralizing is bothering you, and that you wish your old brother to the devil. I am nonetheless with much esteem, my dear brother, your faithful brother and servant
Federic.
-----------------
Very theoretical enquiry by young AW whether or not one should allow doctors to perform an autopsy:
Ah! my dear brother, when one is dead, it is a question of whether one could have lived. The poor milord would have laughed, if he had been able, in the face of his dissecters, seeing his liver in the hand of one, his lungs in that of another, and hearing all the absurdities that the faculty spouted on these occasions. For my part, I have forbidden anyone to open me after my death; it is enough to provide the public with a joke during one‘s life, and it is too much to offer it comedy at the expense of one’s spleen, one’s liver and one’s lungs. My cavalcades have not served me much; I have colic every evening and even stronger nights; I am an old building which is falling apart, and when I work on the roof, the foundation collapses. For you, my dear brother, who are in the vigor of youth, healthy, cheerful, vigorous, it is up to you to enjoy life which has only charms for you, it is up to you to pick flowers, and thorns for me. I am content to add that no one takes more part in your fortune than I do and that no happiness can happen to you for which I am not glad. With these true feelings I am forever, my dear brother, your faithful brother and servant
Federic.
Remember, Fritz couldn't go to the wedding of Wilhelmine's daughter - of whom he was the godfather - though we know from the Fredersdorf letters he really wanted to and had ordered a wedding suit already. This letter to AW about AW going also gives us a glimpse on Fritz' opinion of the Margrave. Frustratingly, I don't know who "Jean-Farine" is supposed to be - Google thinks it might be an allusion to a French children's song, but the only texts I get are about other Songs. Literary figures named Jean-Farine are also so far not googleable. And rl Jean Farines all live later. But anyway, the context is clear:
My dear brother. I want you to have fun at our niece's wedding, and I have no doubt that our brother-in-law Jean-Farine will provide you with comedy. Please give a thousand friendships from me to my sister, and assure her that I am completely mortified at not being able to be at her daughter's wedding, that it was impossible for me to manage it, though I knew at least that of necessity the father would be there.
The first half is -- just -- I think it's actually worse than FW's letter in some ways. I mean, obviously what FW did was far far worse, but you get the sense from FW's letter that he felt at least sort of bad about it, whereas this is just such a refusal to even consider any kind of... And the second half of this letter, coming after that first half -- I can just imagine Heinrich thinking, how dare he talk of a brother whom he loved, after saying that?? -- well, to elaborate on what I said before, I can see there are good psychological reasons why Heinrich didn't ever even try to kill Friedrich, but I also think that one wouldn't have to change very much to get the AU where Fritz was too physically near Heinrich when all this went down and Heinrich went after him in a blind fury.
Indeed. Which is why I'm so curious about that shared day in late September 1758 which Fritz thanks Heinrich for. I mean, by this time Fritz has sent a couple of less awful letters and also, as we can see from Fritz' letter to Amalie about the visit, finally was wise enough to not bring AW up again. But on the other hand, while his letters to Heinrich fretting about Wilhelmine prior to this visit are touching by themselves, how must Fritz going on about how much Wilhelmine means to him, that the ties formed by them being brought up together are indissolvable and there's no love like the love for a sibling with whom one has grown up and he'll never ever be able to get over it if she dies - how must that feel with this letter about AW's death in mind? Even with the intervening months (AW dies in June, Heinrich makes that visit near the end September) offering the time to build up some self restraint.
(Current headcanon: that visit Heinrich paid to a dying Wilhelmine made a difference. He didn't tell her about AW's death, granted, but she knew about the disgrace and had tried to mediate, so maybe she talked about Fritz and tried to explain and/or made Heinrich promise not to get himself into an argument with him as well.)
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
This makes lots of sense. She also possibly said some things that Heinrich was able to quote to Fritz during the meeting that made Fritz more well-disposed toward Heinrich (regardless of whether it made Heinrich even 0.00000001% more well-disposed toward Fritz).
Frustratingly, I don't know who "Jean-Farine" is supposed to be - Google thinks it might be an allusion to a French children's song, but the only texts I get are about other Songs.
French wiki says:
"He's a Jean-Farine."
He's a fool, a simpleton. This popular term came from floured farces, where the actor who played the character of a fool had the face dusted with flour and the name of Jean-Farine. This is what we have since called the Gilles or the Pierrot.
"Farine," of course, means flour. That seems entirely consistent with Fritz saying brother-in-law Jean-Farine will provide comedy.
Earning my keep as royal librarian with google skills!
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
(I mean, he's solidly suspiciously neutral in his letters to Wilhelmine, other than - during the time she travels in France - advising her to not mind if her butterly visits other flowers because that is the nature of a butterfly. But yeah. When has Fritz ever liked the s.o. of someone he cares about who is supposed to love him first and foremost?)
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
*nods* :( And those letters from Fritz are heartbreaking, like, they really are sweet and paternal, and to think about how AW must have felt, emotionally, when Fritz turned on him :(
(Current headcanon: that visit Heinrich paid to a dying Wilhelmine made a difference. He didn't tell her about AW's death, granted, but she knew about the disgrace and had tried to mediate, so maybe she talked about Fritz and tried to explain and/or made Heinrich promise not to get himself into an argument with him as well.)
...You're going to write this, right? Because in the department of Things I Didn't Know I Needed But Totally Do is the highly dysfunctional near-deathbed scene where Heinrich has lost AW and realizes he's about to lose Wilehlmine too, and he hates her because Fritz loves her and because AW is dead but he loves her too, and Wilhelmine doesn't know AW is dead but she sure knows the situation has gone toxic (and regardless of what Fredersdorf may have thought, Wilhelmine must have known, having gone through it herself, that Fritz, how does it go, "is very sensitive") and that Heinrich is this close to snapping, and makes him promise not to, and Heinrich is both totally resentful and secretly relieved that Wilhelmine is emotionally blackmailing him with her death.
(And, OK, I also want the meeting between Heinrich and Fritz, but I find myself much less able to imagine all the tensions running through that one, wow.)
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
And those letters from Fritz are heartbreaking, like, they really are sweet and paternal, and to think about how AW must have felt, emotionally, when Fritz turned on him.
I'm always wondering whether or not to take Fritz' description of Henricus Minor to Ulrike as being like AW (without the bad parts, arghhh) at face value, because it might be another reason why he favoured him, because he thought he had a chance there for a do-over, if Henricus Minor really did resemble him. But of course it doesn't work that way...
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
Henricus Minor: maybe, or Fritz could just be totally delusional. "Like AW" could just mean "not a terrier" or more specifically, "I used to get along with AW until You-Know-What, and HM died before I could fuck things up with him (let's remember HM was only 19), and so I was getting along with him, which must mean they shared good qualities, like not being a terrier. QED."
(AW: at long last, cornered, displays his inner terrier there at the very end; since it does not compute, Fritz writes it off as those convenient bad advisors.)
Rheinsberg, the community
But now the wretched question comes up, where to comment? Perhaps mildred was right that it's a little weird to split discussion.
On the other hand, I REALLY like having all the material in posts like that.
I also wonder if it makes sense to link to where they came from? In case someone would like to read the full discussion :) (Although maybe it doesn't make sense to go back and do that for the ones you've already done.)
I'm reading the AW Trier letters now (this is your fault) and they are breaking my heart. Fritz is so sweet in them, the bastard.
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
It's also great being able to edit, i.e when I find another Fredersdorf letters quote, say, I can put it into the main post instead of having to post another comment.
Re: discussion - well, how about this:
For ongoing discussions, like currently about AW-Fritz-Heinrich, we use your posts, as per usual. If you, by the collection of the material, feel inspired to make another, new comment, it would in fact be more sensible to make it at the community, as your old Posts already have 300 plus comments.
Linking the discussions themselves: Maybe once we're done uploading, but honestly, I think potential new readers will be very busy reading through the main post material to begin with! ;)
Fritz being sweet towards AW: I know. Remember when a long time ago we had no idea how he and Wilhelmine stood towards the younger sibs? About the only thing I knew back then was that things did end badly with AW, so I assumed they'd had a distant relationship at best.
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
I like your idea about commenting procedures. The only downside is those of us without paid accounts can only subscribe to 25 notifications at once.
Oh, who am I kidding? Thanks to my word-counting and comment-counting script, I practically already have a notification system I wrote myself, with no service limits. :P I'd just need to tweak that.
Okay, problem solved. :D
Remember when a long time ago we had no idea how he and Wilhelmine stood towards the younger sibs?
A long time ago, we had no idea about a lot of things. We've all come a long way! If it weren't for you two, I would have read/reread two Kindle bios of Fritz, written some uninformed fanfic, and called it a day. I am profoundly grateful for the educational opportunities.
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
I was also thinking there should be a sticky posts with recs for books, shows, etc. Like
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
* births and deaths of Fritz's immediate family, also Fredersdorf and Katte deaths
* Ascensions of other monarchs where it's relevant (Austria, Russia)
* Beginning and ends of various wars
* The AW implosion
* Fritz' marriage and those of his siblings
* The dates of Visits Important To Gossipy Sensationlists, like, when Voltaire visited Prussia, when Algarotti was in Prussia / made Count / etc.
To encourage brevity, what if all entries for the specific year were made under that year?
1740: Friedrich Wilhelm dies 31 May. Fritz crowned [whenever he got crowned]. His Anti-Machiavel pamphlet is published in September. Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor, dies 20 October (Maria Theresia succeeds him but is not recognized at the time as Empress). Fritz invades the Austrian province of Silesia in December, starting the War of the Austrian Succession.
Something like that? It should make sense to someone who is coming to it new but shouldn't have a lot of extraneous detail, that is what the posts are for :D
My other thought is that really important stuff should be bolded. Things like Fritz ascending to the throne. And Katte :P
ETA: And YESSSSS to recs and books! I don't even know what bio of Fritz I should check out; I looked around over the break and got sort of intimidated by all the possibilities.
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
To encourage brevity, what if all entries for the specific year were made under that year?
What do you mean?
I don't even know what bio of Fritz I should check out;
Ugh, I wish I could be more help, but physical books, you know. The one I recommended a while back when someone asked was Blanning; very recent (2015? I forget), tries not to buy into centuries of mythologizing but actually look at evidence, gay but not "Everyone is GAY GAY GAY and bi people do not exist and neither does an experimentation/questioning phase!" I would also add that it's light on politics/war (but has a very interesting take on Fritz's strengths and weaknesses as a general that has informed mine, after years of exposure to the Mythologizing of Frederick the Great), but heavy on arts and music, which might be an extra feature for you.
So if you wanted to start somewhere, that's not a bad place. I do need to reread it, though, now that I know far more than when I read it back in June or whatever. I might find lots of issues that I didn't pick up on at the time. (So far the big one is his presentation of the Marwitz episode like he actually knows what happens.)
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
What do you mean?
I mean that I feel like if each entry got its own part of the timeline, it would become very large and invite expansion. Here's a sample of what I think would rapidly become very unwieldy:
31 May 1740 FW dies, age 51
1 Jun 1740 [I know this isn't right but I can't easily find the date reference] Friedrich is crowned King Friedrich II in Prussia
Sept 1740 Fritz's anti-Machiavel pamphlet is published, thus leading Voltaire to exclaim [whatever it was he said about how Fritz was the greatest]
I propose instead what I said above, a single entry for the entire year:
1740: Friedrich Wilhelm dies 31 May. Fritz is crowned King Friedrich II in Prussia [whenever he got crowned]. His Anti-Machiavel pamphlet decrying invasion is published in September. Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor, dies 20 October (Maria Theresia succeeds him but is not recognized at the time as Empress). Fritz invades the Austrian province of Silesia in December, starting the War of the Austrian Succession.
It may be a little harder to read individual entries than the first way but I think it has the virtues of not being quite as overwhelming overall and making the entire timeline a little easier to scan through.
Hmm, OK, I may check the Blanning out! After I finish all my current reading, lol. I will go back to Wilhelmine but I've sort of slewed over to the AW letters for now :P :)
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
That's because he was never crowned! He went for cheap homage ceremonies, appeared in public, waved at people, gave out some medals with his image on them, went home. FW had done the same. The last coronation in Prussia was the first King (in) Prussia, Grandpa F1, who was a big spender.
Coronations are expensive and decadent and (of concern to Fritz) not for enlightened, non-superstitious monarchs!
Okay, so you want fewer items but more detail per item than I was going to go for. I suppose that makes sense if it's meant as an introductory resource and not just a reference for the initiated.
I may also do a longer chronology with less detail per entry as a reference work for the initiated (who may also be plotting fic, haha).
Blanning is also a lighter read than a lot of the other biographers, in that it took me less time to read 600 pages by him than to read 300 pages by other biographers. So it's a good intro to the topic for that reason as well. It's also ten bucks.
I will go back to Wilhelmine but I've sort of slewed over to the AW letters for now :P :)
There's a lot to read! I've started like ten things that I haven't finished. (I have a Trello list for them, lol.) Plus I'm about to finish rereading MacDonogh, and then I want to reread Blanning, with all this new knowledge under my belt.
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Relatedly, is there a good, non-overly aggrandising book or resource as to Fritz’s military strategy? I’m only familiar with the standard myth of the war genius general, mostly from Berlin visits and familiarity with the post-Fritz Napoleonic wars, albeit from the non-Prussian side of things (thanks, Mis fandom!). I see you’ve recommended Blanning to cahn, which probably means I should wait for her to be done with it and make free with her summarised views :)
(I’m also interested in resources on the Prussian military uniform, but that’s probably just my thing for uniforms.)
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Prussian military uniforms
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Oh, yeah, I totally support making two chronologies: a beginner's chronology specifically for introductory purposes, and one with lots of entries, for reference (which, yeah, I would also find REALLY helpful when reading these letters, for one thing). And yay fic-writing :D
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Tracking Rheinsberg
Another great thing about a community! :)
Re: Tracking Rheinsberg
The community is turning out to have many benefits. I'm glad we founded it!
Re: Rheinsberg, the community
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
https://archiveofourown.org/works/22408975
Re: Brotherly Conduct III: The Aftermath
you must have posted this literally MINUTES after I had to leave go do a bunch of family stuff (and in particular was not checking my AO3 notifications)
brb