cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 9

INDEED. And I did wonder why the response to my query seemed deceptively muted, until I realized mildred had replied to selenak and had all had migrated over here XD

Heee. This is why I subscribe both to new comments on individual Fritz posts and also to new posts made by

cahn with the "Frederick the Great" tag. That way you get ALL the email notifications. Um, it also required me to create a filter in Gmail for the flood of notifications, full disclosure (and I don't even get my own notifications, and we all know I am responsible for 50% of the notifications, so...).

Thank you for the link to the history of hemorrhoids! I had never seen anyone recent claim that the link between constipation and hemorrhoids was tenuous.

I'm not sure at what age Fritz began to be troubled with piles, but it is indeed something I have wondered (less for sex reasons and more for general chronology of his health reasons). Quite plausible that by age 17/18 they were not a problem yet, as my understanding is that the likelihood of getting them increases with age. And I have no direct evidence of him having this problem so early. Hence him bottoming for Katte and switching.

Fritz/Algarotti: clearly Fritz tops! And Algarotti blows him. In the carriage travelling many many miles west ♥

Yep! To be fair, as we discussed, the hemorrhoids may not have been a problem yet in 1740. But I *still* don't see Fritz bottoming for Algarotti in the one or two times I imagine them actually doing it before Fritz goes, "Naahhh."

I definitely don't see the king bottoming for Fredersdorf

Yeah, I don't see it happening; what I see is Fritz wishing he could get into an erastes/eromenos dynamic with Fredersdorf and not being able to figure out how.

This is actually probably why I latched so hard onto Suhm: I've been looking for an erastes for Fritz, and Katte dies off too quickly. Suhm is at least intermittently around post-Küstrin, up to 1736, and emotionally present via correspondence afterward.

I am hoping this conversation might have encouraged some other members of the salon to write it...!

At this point, I'm only up for co-authoring, but I'm game! I'm definitely taking mental notes as we go, for future reference.

Via speculation about their sex lives, admittedly, but still -- ours is a higher calling

Well, last night I was chatting with raven_aorla (author of the mob boss fic), and told her that the latest news from the salon was an in-depth "who bottoms?" discussion, and that led to me and her working out the dynamics of a foursome involving modern-day mob boss Fritz, Algarotti, Katte, and Peter Keith, which she may or may not end up writing, but it has a title and an outline and a Google doc, and I have a good track record of inspiring her to write things, so... :D

Funnily enough, she also brought up Achilles and Patroclus and Plato as parallels for our salon's latest topic! Whereupon I pointed out that we are much more methodologically rigorous and that I take pride in that. ;)

seems to suggest Lehndorff bottoms for his prince, actually? esp since there wasn't a lot of height to Heinrich?

I'm not quite following how Heinrich's height is relevant here?

which notes that, in the choreography for the opera's sex scene, the emperor uncharacteristically bottoms.

Oh, interesting. I would point out that physical bottoming and sexual bottoming are two different things: the penetratee can be physically on top, riding or orally servicing the penetrator, and by Greco-Roman standards, would still be considered to be accepting the subordinate role.

Heh, and I also figured you might be up for my haemorrhoid discussion. This is a very practical consideration, and, you know, might well have played a part in Fritz’s tendency towards “...Naahhhh”? I mean, the mechanics of sex are complicated enough without a painful nether condition, and it sounds like Fritz’s condition was fairly acute...

how Heinrich’s height is relevant

This is me reading saucy innuendo into our smitten diarist’s use of “height” in “my heart feels the whole height of this pleasure” to convey the following: my tiny Prince might be tiny but he is extremely well endowed and furthermore I felt every inch of said endowment via bottoming for him. Ahem. But I will grant you that might be a bit of a stretch. Also wishful thinking!

physical bottoming and sexual bottoming are two different things

Indeed! Hence the topping from the bottom, and also the New York Times’ Hadrian reviewer’s descriptive and technically accurate use of the term “the dominant partner” to describe the sexual position depicted in the opera. (I’ll pause here for cahn and I to picture Hampson simulating the bottoming in question, and trying to keep our heads from exploding, hee.)

it sounds like Fritz’s condition was fairly acute...

He certainly talked about it with rokoko frankness. Voltaire even worked it into a poem!

This is me reading saucy innuendo into our smitten diarist’s use of “height” in “my heart feels the whole height of this pleasure” to convey the following:

I see. Well, one thing to keep in mind is that this diary has been translated from French into German into English, so it's not a given that any word overlapping in meaning with "physical height" was used in the original. But it's fair game for playful innuendo!

...and I guess we could eyeball the phrase in French? Albeit mine is worse than cahn’s, so I undoubtedly would not be of much help. But I could acquire some! For eg, Miss M’s French is excellent!

Sadly, we don't have access to the French diaries, only the German translation of 1907. I imagine the French originals were never published?

selenak, was there anything in the introduction, etc. about the original?

I'm concluding they were written in French, because 1) aside from the occasional quote, why would 18C nobleman Lehndorff write in German? 2) selenak reports references to his descendants trying to change French masculine pronouns to feminine ones in the manuscripts so he doesn't look like he's sexually interested in men. Presumably this is related to why the originals never got published. (There were just too many masculine pronouns, and names, and anecdotes, and then you'd have to excise pretty much the whole diary. :P)

There were indeed.

1. Yes, they were written in French, except for the very occasional German word (like Polterabend ("Stag night") in reference as to what he was doing with Heinrich in his old flat) or sentence (AW's remark "Ich aber stehe für nichts ein, wenn ich König sein werde, denn alsdann fährt der Teuffel in uns!")

2.) No, as far as I know, they were never published in the original language. By the time the Lehndorff family made them available for publication, knowledge of French among the general German reading public was far, far less familiar. So it made sense to publish them in a German translation.

3.) Sadly, only a part of the original manuscripts exist anymore, as I now know through the 2007 reprint with an additional foreword. Some got lost in 1945 for the usual historical reason, though thankfully not all. The diaries 1753 ff, 1770 - 1775, 1786 - 1788 and 1799 ff still exist. For the rest, research has to rely on the translation made by Schmid-Lötzen in 1907 (and following years for the other volumes).

Oh no! That's even worse! Almost as bad as losing the Katte letters, lol. But thanks for giving us the latest from your Christmas gift aka 2007 volume.

You're welcome. Both Lehndorffs and Kattes made the mistake of keeping the historical papers at their family seats instead of donating them to a state archive, I suppose, though the Lehndorffs at least were considerate enough to led 1907 Editor read, translate and publish them. (Also, who knows what would have happened to Lehndorff's journals if they'd gifted them to a state archive pre 1945!)

Incidentally, re: the Lehndorff family - the two most famous descendants our Lehndorff had in this century were a) the July 20th co-conspirator who ended up executed for being part of Operation Valkyrie, the last attempt to kill Hitler, and b) Vera "Verushka" von Lehndorff the supermodel. (Is one of the models in the Antonioni film "Blow Up" when young and also when old the Russian Countess playing poker on the table with James Bond and Le Chiffre in Casino Royale.) I hope he'd be proud.

See answer to Mildred about the fate of the French original manuscript for the 1752 diary (in a word: victim of WWII). 1753 ff still exists, but this particular entry was made in December 1752, and thus we only have Schmid-R's translation from 1907 to go by forever more. I checked out the German phrase again:

"Mein Herz empfindet die ganze Höhe dieses Glücks umso mehr, als ich es lange nicht genossen habe."

"Höhe" is definitely "height". Though we will, of course, never know whether the 1907 translation into German is correct. In any case, what additionally triggers my suspicion about that entry is that a) "lange nicht genossen habe" - "haven't been able to enjoy it for such a long time" - this in a month where he's meeting Heinrich almost daily, so he's clearly not just talking about just seeing him and talking to him; and b) "Polterabend" (i.e. stag night - 1907!editor notes Lehndorff uses the German expression here, perhaps there is no adequate one in French?) - to my knowledge, even in the 18th century, that term is associated with weddings, not moving from one flat to the next. Also, again, entry says they're alone, so how exactly are they celebrating - getting drunk together is i<>possible, I suppose, but come on.

Edited 2020-01-18 07:09 (UTC)

but come on

Yeah, the combination of “my heart feels the whole height of this pleasure”, “haven’t been able to enjoy it for such a long time” and “Stag night” DEFINITELY lends itself to the likely conclusion that they banged all night, a rare occasion! I just add to this the speculation that Fredersdorf bottomed for his tiny albeit well-hung prince XD

I realize that was a typo (a confusing one to me at first), but I couldn't help thinking: Fredersdorf is the one person who is very definitely NOT better off starting a family collection in order to succeed at Fritz's court!

The mind boggles trying to imagine Fritz's volcanic reaction.

"It's not my fault, Your Majesty. I have a 'type', and your other self was right there..."

Hahaha, OMG, what a typo! All it was missing was a sausage reference (although actually the sausage was implied ;))

Obviously it was a good thing that Fredersdorf didn’t in fact bottom for Heinrich!! I mean, mostly for Fredersdorf, but also for Heinrich. And also for Fritz, if you figure jealous volcanic reactions aren’t good for the body.

Body maybe, but I can only imagine the *psychological* devastation if Fredersdorf betrays him (because that's how he's see it) like that. I'm still hoping we're right that Fredersdorf didn't do anything that Fritz even *saw* as financial betrayal (however unfairly), because after that many years, I suspect that would feel to Fritz like losing the ground under his feet and also confirm his misanthropic tendencies that no one can be trusted.

...mwahahaaaa. Yeah, if Fredersdorf wants to survive, he'd better not.

("I was only thinking of you the whole time, I swear!")

("You're so much alike I got confused!...Yes, I ended up in bed with Voltaire that one time, why do you ask?")

Other -Dorf, you mean. Lehndorff. :) (Fredersdorf, one f, : Fritz. Lehndorff, two ff: Heinrich.)

(Let's get not into whether Seckendorff, Austrian schemer supreme, would have bottomed for FW if FW had ever admitted to himself what he wanted from tall men…)

Also, agreed on their position on that occasion. ;)

I see we had the same reaction to Fredersdorf's name, albeit mine was more crackficcy.

I don't know about Seckendorff (I suspect he'd do whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff), but there's definitely FW/Grumbkow fic on AO3... :P

I only skimmed the Google translation long ago (I really don't want to dwell on the thought of FW in bed, and only ended up in this fic because it was Fritz/Katte), and I don't remember who bottoms, but I have a vague memory it was FW. Which, if he wasn't already repressing his homosexual desires as temptations from Satan, imagine if he wanted to *bottom* for the tall guys (which seems likely enough, imo).

It's the fault of 18th century naming habits where a) everyone uses everyone else's last name, and b) way too many last names end with -Village! (In German.)

I don't know about Seckendorff (I suspect he'd do whatever it took to advance the cause of Seckendorff)

Well, that goes without saying. But he'd have to figure out which position furthers the cause of Seckendorff more first!

I've spotted FW/Grumbkow on AO3 in the Fritz/Katte stories, too, but haven't read it. Agreed that if he didn't repress like hell, he'd definitely want the beloved tall guys to top. Incidentally, I think the fact that he and SD clearly kept having sex while clawing each other's faces off, so to speak - Ferdinand was born in 1730! -, long after the dynasty was secure and the marriage had gone to hell was probably due to FW following St. Paul's "better to marry than to burn" advice, i.e. needed to channel his sexual urges in the only way permissable to a good Christian King (tm). I mean, he was only 51 when he died, which is easy to forget given one Imagines him born middle aged.

Moving on from the depressing topic of FW's sex life, to me the most bemusing A03 pairing in our fandom is Fritz/Casanova - not that it exists - canonical meeting and Fritz canonically finding good old Giacomo attractive - but that alt!Casanova according to the tags is the Doge of Venice's so who meets young same age Fritz. I shall never understand why people take a potentially interesting pairing and then promptly remove anything that would make it interesting, making it into a generic Any Two Guys instead. For starters, Casanova wasn't upper class, he was the son of an actress and an actor, which very much colored all his interactions with the upper class. He was among other things a highly successful con man whose default setting towards people in power was flirt and scheme to relieve them somehow of some of their valuables/ at least get their patronage. (Yes, and getting into bed with some of them.) Why on earth would you change that when pairing him with a brilliant paranoid snarky control freak? And if you don't want Fritz to be a generation older, why bother with Casanova at all when Algarotti is right there?

due to FW following St. Paul's "better to marry than to burn" advice, i.e. needed to channel his sexual urges in the only way permissable to a good Christian King (tm).

Agree.

But he'd have to figure out which position furthers the cause of Seckendorff more first!

LOL. How tall is he? Because if tall, then probably top. :P

I mean, he was only 51 when he died, which is easy to forget

The reason I don't forget is that I think, painfully, of just how *many* years Fritz had to imagine Dad potentially living when he was trying to run away at 18. 10 is a lot, but Fritz couldn't have known it wouldn't be 40.

given one Imagines him born middle aged.

But he *was* born middle-aged! Even his parents knew that. :P

For those who don't know young FW as well as Selena, here's an account of his youth from a biographer:

The new king, Frederick William, had manifested from childhood a violent aversion for ceremonies and luxury. One day, when quite a small child, curled, powdered, clad in a gala costume, he hid himself in a chimney, whence he was pulled out, black as a chimney-sweep. He threw a brocaded night-robe into the fire, soon after it was tried on him. The sight of the big perukes made him furious. Finding some courtiers in his father's antechamber, warming them selves, with their heads thrown back, so as not to scorch their beautiful periwigs, which had cost them 200 thalers, he forced them to throw their wigs into the fire. Another time, they picked up at the foot of the staircase a maitre de la cour whom he had kicked to the bottom. He was extremely parsimonious, and kept an exact account of his receipts and expenditures, in a faultless register, on the first page of which he had written: “Rechnung fiber meine Ducaten,--Account of my Ducats.” “Miser,” exclaimed his mother, “and at so tender an age!"

I shall never understand why people take a potentially interesting pairing and then promptly remove anything that would make it interesting, making it into a generic Any Two Guys instead.

It's true, a lot of AUs devolve into of generic Any Two Guys. I can see the appeal, but for myself, I generally want there to be *something* of the original dynamic retained, and not just the names.

Why on earth would you change that when pairing him with a brilliant paranoid snarky control freak?

Long ago, I tried skimming some of the earlier Fritz/Casanova material by the same author, the one where Casanova *is* a generation younger, and the impression I got was of a sweet, somewhat naive, almost childlike, stereotypical sub, and I was like...this is his twin brother who was given away at birth and ended up with the same name, right?

Anyway, the most prolific AO3 author in this fandom is far from my favorite, and the rampant cliches that I found just lightly skimming her work reconciled me to her unwillingness to use the enter key to put spaces between paragraphs, making her works into one thoroughly unreadable run-on wall of text for me. Space your paragraphs, people! (It's a pet peeve of mine.) Anyway, the unreadability doesn't matter because it's not something I want to read, which is too bad, because there's so much of it, haha.

I'm still raging at the part where a character, probably Casanova but I wasn't inspired to find out, was waiting, with evident author approval, for Fritz to get up the "courage" to visit Katte's* grave. Not everyone grieves the same way! Rituals around death are for the comfort of the living, not something owed to the dead! "Fuck you," is all I can think.

* Yes, most of my skimming took the form of "ctrl-f Katte". ;)

So I haven’t browsed the fic at all, and am taking mildred’s comments to heart, but you would have thought that this Brilliant Damaged Paranoid Older War General/Flirty Scheming Successful Young Rough Trade Con Man pairing would be filled with crossgen kink and razor-edged snark and attempted doublecrossing and inevitable hatesex? If not, then, as you say, what’s the point of this ship? (For the record, I would read the crap out of the former!)

FW/giants is canon, and Giants Top! ought to be!

If not, then, as you say, what’s the point of this ship?

Honestly, I haven't read any because the summaries and the tags already tell me it's not this. Which I would also love to read. Instead, AU Casanova seems to be a sweet natured comfort providing sub, if said summaries and tags are anything to go by. Which, for this particular pairing, I have zero interest in.

On the other hand: if you visit Sanssouci these days, there's apparantly a tour through the park where Casanova tells you all about his meeting with Fritz and adds a few stories he's heard about him to boot, which probably is more fun, and more historical, even if it's lacking them actually getting it on...

Heh, I clearly have the loyal prime minister on the brain instead of our pining diarist. Mea culpa, I blame the Mandarin.

if FW had ever admitted to himself what he wanted from tall men

No, right? All this obsession with giants has got to be at least in part sexual!

Frederick the Great discussion post 9

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

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Re: Toppings of all types, continued: Fritz/Casanova

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