Frederick the Great, discussion post 5: or: Yuletide requests are out!

[cahn]

All Yuletide requests are out!

Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!

-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)

Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!

-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French

-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...

Master link to Frederick the Great posts and associated online links

Comments

Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote

[selenak]

Although, lol, I can see how "no, you still can't have Silesia" might come across as "unforgiving" to Fritz partisans.

Indeed; this is the same ambassador who wrote "she does not deny your majesty's abilities, but she cannot forgive Silesia" in another dispatch. Basic attitude: why does she keep making a fuss about what we've rightfully stolen, and anyway, it's unwomanly! Why she doesn't spend three hours a day on her make-up and hair style (this was the non-MT avarage for a noble lady in Vienna at that time) is beyond me, unless she really wants to be a man, amirite?

Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit

[selenak]

I am reminded of the Field of Cloth of Gold.

At least neither Joseph nor Fritz (had he gone) were the types to insist on wrestling the French king to show off their manliness only to get humiliatingly beaten in public. :)

(BTW, the rank and status problem, or rather, the acknowledgment or lack of same: that's why I rolled my eyes - one of many times - when The Tudors had Charles V. pay an official state visit to Henry VIII's court and defer to him. In your dreams, Henry.)

(Though that's less tv lack of historicity and more anglo-centric pov with an utter lack of realisation as to what the HRE was, I suppose. And that has a long pre-tv tradition. For example, in Josephine Tey's drama Richard of Bordeaux - which btw I like otherwise - about Richard II - she has Anne of Bohemia, Richard's first wife, refer to herself as a girl from the back of beyond coming to the wonderful English court when marrying Richard. Ahem. Anne was the daughter of Emperor Charles IV, most powerful man of his time. She was the sister of another HRE. She did not marry upwards in this match. Her father's court (mainly in Prague), far from being the back of beyond, was the most cultivated of its time, it was multilingual - her father was fluent in Latin, German, French, Bohemian and Italian - and multinational. But yeah, sure, coming to that island where Richard was thought to be decadent for using forks and hankerchief must have been really dazzling to a poor country girl like her.

Haha, do we know how early is early?

In this particulare case, the Duke writes Joseph and his ugly German carriage leave "at dawn", and since it's May 30th, I'm assuming around 5 am-ish?

Lol, I was thinking, "Now what does that remind us of?" Mind you, there are anecdotes of Philip and Alexander doing the same thing, 2000 years earlier.

Note that Louis XV is utterly lacking in inclination to lecture people about their fields of expertise, though sadly also lacking in inclination to take an interest in anything that's not fun and distracting to him. Like governing.

LOLOL! Those wacky marriage projects.

I would say "well, Joseph is a Habsburg and they take their family motto seriously", but you know, marrying relations off to strategic advantage was what Fritz did a lot, too. Though he probably drew the line at elephants. :)

Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture

[selenak]

Okay, now I've checked out what a decades younger Duke thought was going on in the War of Austrian Succession.

Firstly, like all his life, he's a (French) patriot, and when MT's Dad dies and Fritz pounces on Silesia, he's all for France joining the free for all (the plan then being to carry the war right to Vienna and end the House of Habsburg once and for all, with its lands being carved up not just between European powers but other German nobility, and Karl Albrecht of Wittelsbach subsequently ruling over a much smaller rearranged HRE. This to our young duke is a cause of joy, I mean, the centuries long Bourbons vs Habsburgs has gone through its latest iteration when MT's Dad was kicked out of Northern Spain and the Bourbon rule over Spain solidified. There is also zero expectation that the Austrians will put up a successful fight; as far as young de Croy is concerned, the "House of Habsburg has ended" with MT's father. She's a woman, yo, and the Lorraine guy is clearly not up to scratch.

Otoh, young de Croy is not at all blind and deaf when attending Karl Albrecht's coronation as Emperor in Frankfurt and thus describes the mood of the German population at the grand ceremony:

The proclamation especially detailed that the Empire had been orphaned after the death of Charles VI, and that the elector's college had according to law and without a dissenting voice voted the Prince Elector of Bavaria as King of the Romans - for obvious reasons, no one mentioned "King of Bohemia" - and that he was supposed to be recognized as such now by everyone. Then the archdeacon shouted a "Vivat Rex", and all attending (mostly Frenchmen) replied with the same call. One could hear the saluts shot from the city walls.

I have to add, though, that there wasn't a single exclamation of joy to be heard in the entire city. Instead, one felt a melancholic mood: nearly all of Germany seems to be angry about this choice. This has reasons. The Germans feel that it was solely the work of France, and partly enforced by our armies standing in Bohemia and Westphalia. They talk of an Emperor cut from French clothing, a puppet of the Cardinal Fleury and the Marechal de Belle-Isle. They also know that this Emperor, even if he was in the possession of Upper Austria and Bohemia, can't offer more than 18.000 men as an army and thus will never be able to stand up to France to which he ows his imperial throne. That thus, it is France deciding over the fate of the Empire, especially since it has split the princes of said Empire into almost equal factions. Moreover, the prince electorate of Bavaria and his house are now forced to incredible expenses which they only could raise by draining their countries dry, with Bavaria already having been in a miserable state. Thus, this day was great for France, the Cardinal and the Marshal, since the Empire recognized the ruler we have given it. For this succes, France has promised to each willing prince the territory he wants at the expense of the House of Habsburg, which will be destroyed. This might burden the Empire for years to come, and the people have been used to the rule of this House, being slaves to habit.

As for the new Emperor and his wife: The Emperor is not beautiful. He appears to be good-natured, though, and shy. The Empress is an ugly woman, very fat, red-faced, has big eyes, but she, too, appears good natured and very shy.

They were also soon out of a home, since on the day of Karl Albrecht's coronation, Austrian troops marched into Linz and were on their way to Munich. The Duke, a man after Fritz' own heart in this regard, keeps to referring to MT as "The Queen of Hungary" through all three Silesian Wars and the 7 Years War, though, and doesn't call her "the Empress" until the MA marriage to the Dauphin is arranged.

Now, when I earlier said the Duke basically disapproves of mistresses, I should have specified: low-born mistresses. He's okay with the noble type. But he's still won over by middle class Jeanne Poisson, laer the Marquise de Pompadeur, and lower class Dubarry. When Madame de Pompadour dies, he has this to say:

She will be greatly missed, for she was goodnatured and helped nearly all who have asked for her help. Thus one of the longest rules I have experienced in my life time ends. It started when she was twenty, in early 1745, and thus lasted nearly twenty years!

I suppose there were hardly any appointments and pardons that did not succeed through her. She only caused the dismissal of the three or four ministers who had tried to get rid of her first. She never did evil, or only if she was forced to, but in her time all kind of misery has happened in France, and so much money was spent in vain! Her death has been the most momentous event to happen in France for a long time. On the one hand, we now have to wait who will succeed in winning the unlimited trust of the King, for he needs someone to help him decide on appointments and pardons. And the entire court system could be toppled by this person. On the other hand, it was Madame de Pompadour who had brought our alliance with Austria into being and kept us loyal to it. Thus, it is now possible that we will have a renewed feud with the Queen of Hungary and have a new war instead of the peace we so direly need.

Not to worry, Duke; MT has no intention of feuding with France again. Note that while the Duke has praise for his King, too - "though nearing 60, he's still the most beautiful man at court", the Duke writes loyally - he's not deluded about his King's ability to rule on his lonesome. The Duke, otoh, decides together with his son to buy shares of the East India Company. Feud with England or not, that's clearly where the money lies. Not in France, alas.

Re: Wilhelmine

[selenak]

So a fellow governess might pick up on abuse first.

That is, of course, true. BTW, one of the reasons why the Fritz Crime Boss AU you linked a while ago doesn't really work for me despite being in many regards well written is that AU!Wilhelmine was not abused in any way (other than having to witness what was done to Fritz) and otherwise has a good life, yet they still have their intense sibling bond. Honestly, I think that they were both abused, though not always in the same ways and by the same people, was a key ingredient to this you can't just remove without significantly altering the relationship itself. Leaving aside the question of how much of Fritz' feelings about AW carried resentment that AW was getting treated comparatively affectionate and lenient by FW:I don't think you can form an "us against the world" bond of that nature if the early life experience is so markedly different instead of "we're both in this hell together, but at least we have each other".

Sibling Correspondance

[selenak]

Since I'm feeling guilty since I brought up sad things again, something more light hearted, excerpts from the Fritz/Wilhelmine correspondance when she's in Italy. Where even when Fritz is sore-graping, he's doing so in an endearing way. Also, we find out what happened to Florichon (Wilhelmine's dog from the dog letters.) Judge for yourselves:

W: My dearest brother, the days appear years to me since I have lived for five weeks without news from you. Despite all the entertaining experiences I have had here, I wish I was in Rome right now, where your letters are adressed to. The interests of my heart will always outweigh everything for me me, and there, my dear brother rules like an absolute despot, so that one line from him weighs more than all the largesse I am seeing every day. We will leave Florence in two days.

I am like a person born blind who is learning to see bit by bit, and learns new concepts with this. All I have seen from Italy so far surpasses everything I've been told about it. I often feel myself enchanted and believe I must be living in an illusion.

F: My dearest sister, I had the pleasure of receiving your letter from Florence. It contains, dearest sister, any beautiful churches, monuments and antiques, but I must confess to be thoroughly saddened not to find the one thing I truly searched for: the restoratio of your health. In moderation, I believe movement could help you. But I am afraid that the burdens of a long journey will exhaust you too much. You will find Italy as an old coquette who fancies herself as beautiful as in her youth and who may bear some traces that allow a conclusion of how she must have been.

*lengthy rant about how and why the Italy of today and nearly all Italians of today must truly suck and can't possibly be enjoyed, but then*

I ask for a thousand pardons about my idle chatter. Maybe I am like the fox who found the grapes sour which he could not consume, or like the galley slave who has gotten into the habit of rowing his galley and looks with scorn at those enjoying their freedom. I beg you, do not forget the teutonic inhabitants on the shores of the Eastern sea. And may the beautiful climate of Italy not cause you aversion to the freeze of the climate at home.

ZOMG, mes amies, could he have been afraid she'd stay in Italy and he wouldn't see her again?


W: My dearest brother, I must admit to being very sad today. I have just lost a dear friend who always cheered me up and was more fond of me than any humans. My poor Folichon has died in Bayreuth of old age. I had left him there, for I was afraid he would suffer an accident on this journey, for which he was too old in any case. You, my dearest brother, know how much pain such a loss can cause while most of the world makes fun of it. But it seems to me that once one knows what human beings are like, one should try to distance oneself from them, for how many more virtues can we find at those we call animals than with the beings gifted with reason! I see those with reason talk nonsense on a daily basis, and favour evil. There could not have been a more sincere and faithful friend - People came, dear brother, and have stopped me moralizing.

Next, she's off to Naples

W: I'm here since the 27th. The street that leads here seems to be the way to hell. I could never stand the Appii, but right now, I hate them with a vengeance, having travelled on the terrible road they've constructed. I was sick and couldn't walk for days.

(The famous Appian Way was indeed in a terrible state at that point, but come on, Wilhelmine, it was 1700 years old!)

(...) The King here spends his days hunting and fishing while the Queen runs all state business. Yesterday I was in Pozzuoli, in Baja and Cumuae. Rarely have I felt such vivid pleasure. I have visited all the living spaces of the Ancients. There can be nothing more admirable than the Piscina of Lucullus which is still preserved.

(Description ensues. Wilhelmine actually means the "piscina mirabilis", the gigantic underground water cisterns through which the Romans supplied the city with water - and which still supplied Naples with water when she was there. They were active until a mid 19th century earthquake. Today, you can still sightsee there, and they're truly amazing.)

La Condamine and i crawled on all fours inside and climbed back on ladders. In short, we are now adventures immortal by our research and have called this our descent into the underworld. (...) Herculaneum, on the other hand, does not live up to its descriptions. It is like a quarry, with lava walls. One doesn't see anything. While I was there, though, two beautiful mosaic floors were discovered. (...) If we had tools, we'd have taken them with us. I'd have acted like St. Francis in order to send them to you.

<(Wilhelmine is confusing St. Francis with St Crispin who stole leather in order to make shoes for the poor.)


F: My dearest sister, (...) I must admit that I would consider it glorious to have travelled on the Via Appia and that there is nothing I wouldn't give, including a broken rib, in order to be in this earthly paradise. Well, it is not given to everyone to travel to Corinth.

(Editor's footnote: "Travel to Corinth: French saying for making an expensive or morally questionable journey.)

You, my dearest sister, must feel the joy of seeing Italy more than anyone else; you, who knows the history so well and who can treasure antiques. For those Spaniards and Saxons transported to Naples the ancient names are just fancy words. (...) Such a poor species of people lives in this beautiful land now; Julius Caesar, if he came back, would be amazed to find such Iroquois as the owners of his country.

And so forth. Then he reports their mother will visit him in Potsdam, because guess what? There's an English marriage to be arranged! (Between Charlotte's oldest daughter and the current Prince of Wales, though actually Charlotte was supposed to bring ALL her daughters to Hannover for inspection)

It was demanded that she should bring her daughters to Hannover where she'll have the honour of getting face to face with his Britannic Majesty, an honour I do not envy for the world.

Wilhelmine is back in Rome


W: I must, my dear brother, report a miraculous, extraordinary, strange adventure which you won't have expected. You will have a saint in your family, and that saint is myself. I am now a martyr of our holy religion. This pillar of the true faith has not bent her knees to the antichrist. The Roman ladies are terrified and will not see or receive Satan's helper, to wit, me. Discreetly, the Pope does what he can in order to calm everyone down. Like the Cardinal Valenti, who thus is a kind of romantic go between, he tries to be agreeable to me as much as he can, for not a day passes when he doesn't tell me compliments from the Pope. And thus you have my confession. If I could have seen his Holiness, I may have made him my Cicisbeo, for I admit to you I am a bit attracted to the fantastic. But alas, our love was not to be. Now I'm not seeing anyone, which suits me well, since all these visits were killing me. (...) I am up and about all day in the town, though, in order to discover the traces of ancient Rome. One has to get up on montains or into ruined buildings or sometimes descend into the earth, but it is possible. (...) Yesterday I have read a delightful Italian sonnet about you, my dearest brother. In it, you get compared to Julius Caesar. At the end, it says that Caesar wrote his life anew, and that only you were worthy of writing yours. Now you have caused me to make so many bowings and pleasantries that I'll get my hips out of joint, for people talk so much about you to me, knowing this is an assured way to prologne a conversation with me, for no one is dearer to me than my dear brother, whose devoted and obedient sister I shall aways be - Wilhelmine.

Meanwhile, in Sweden

[selenak]

So here I was, idly checking whether sister Ulrike survived Fritz or vice versa (he survived her), when reading the English wiki entry on her, which is far more extensive than the German one, sent me into a rabbit hole because near the end of her life, events happened that proved there’s no crazy like Hohenzollern crazy, unless it’s Hohenzollern-Vasa crazy. For verily, this happened, starring the following players:

Gustav III: Ulrike’s oldest son. Future Verdi tenor. Married, but lacking an heir.
Fredrik Munck: Finnish sex machine with ambitions. Currently getting it on with, among others, the chambermaid of...
SophIa Magdalena: Gustav’s unhappy queen. Definitely not liked by...
Ulrike: Gustav’s mother, not very happy about being Queen Dowager and sidelined.
Charles: Ulrike’s second son. Suffers from chronic second son ombition.
In minor roles: Ulrike’s even younger kids.

If you think you’ve guessed where this is going, think again. Because Gustav is also bff with one Axel von Fersen, handsome Swedish count, in love with Marie Antoinette (whether or not they ever had sex is still disputed, but in future years, he’ll certainly go above and beyond trying to save her). I’m guessing Fersen told him that the French Royal couple also had problems getting it on and getting an heir for years, and solved this by getting third party counselling. Gustav must have misunderstood something, because what he decides to do is this:

G: So, Munck. I hear you’re really, really good at sex. Clearly the go to person to tell me and the Queen how to get an heir.
M: Sure, why not.
G: In a practical, hands- on fashion.
M: Say what?
G: I‘m talking manual instructions, my man. To both of us at the same time. You, me, her in the Royal Bedchamber.
M: I‘m so putting it in writing that this was your idea and leaving the document to the Swedish National Archive where it is to this day.

*nine months later, an heir is had*

Charles: Hi, Mom. I‘m just paying a visit with even younger bro Fredrick Adolf, ever so casually mentioning that other than you, every woman in Sweden is a slut and has lovers.

U: You do remind me of my brother Fritz at times. Surely not every woman? How about your sister-in-law?

C: Total slut, getting it on with the Finnish sex nmachine.

U: Say what? You mean that kid does not have Hohenzollern blood?

C: That kid which has been taking my place as Gustav‘s heir? Kinda doubt that. Rumor has it Gustav is getting it on with him, too.

U: Charles, stop kidding around. This is serious. If that kid is a bastard, it‘s your royal duty to make that known. Get the Finnish guy to confess!

C: Thanks, Mom, I knew you‘d see it like that. Munck, spill the dirty details and restore my place in the succession.

M: Gustav, remember how this was all your idea? Your brother is getting on my case, big time. I need royal protection!

G: Charles, what the hell do you think you‘re doing?

M: It was all Mom‘s idea. I‘m totally innocent.

G: WTF, Mom?

U: I raised you better. In my family, boys who can‘t get it on with their wives make their brothers and their brother‘s kids their heirs. Your uncle Fritz would NEVER have gone for the bastard option.

G: That kid is mine. You want to go to Pomerania into exile?

U: Is not. Make Charles your heir! To me, my other children! Remember, the slut‘s kid is barring you all from succession!

Ulrike‘s younger children: *side with her*

G: Okay, now it‘s war. Mom, if you don‘t sign a public statement that you withdraw your accusation against my wife and son, I‘m sending you home to Prussia. Without a retirement fund. You really want to find out whether Uncle Fritz will take you back? As for you, younger bros and sisters, I‘m still holding the purse string. No more income for you unless you co-sign Mom‘s statement. For good measure, I‘ll have six Swedish MPs co-sign it as well.

U: I curse you to suffer the fate of a Verdi tenor and die not too long after signing the statement.

M: That was surely the most troublesome threesome I ever had.

G: Time for a Masque Ball, anyone?

Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit

[cahn]

Aww, this is really great!

"Given my profession, Madame, I have to be a Royalist and am not allowed to praise any rebels."

hee, I love it!

(We're working on it, Duke, we're working on it.)

lol forever!

Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit

[cahn]

...okay, you guys, tell me about the Field of Cloth of Gold :P I looked it up on wikipedia but there was only one line about the wrestling.

Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture

[cahn]

This is fascinating! I should also clearly read up on Mme de Pompadour, whom I knew existed but I know very little else about her.

Or, maybe I'll just ask, tell me about how Mme de Pompadour brought their alliance with Austria into being?? :)

She's a woman, yo

(it is your fault that my brain immediately capitalized WOMAN)

Re: Crackfic

[cahn]

Argh, SUBTITLES. (Opera subtitles always bug me, for the operas I know well enough to somewhat-follow in the language.) Yeah, that does read very differently in those lines -- as you say, the characterization is rather different.

Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote

[cahn]

LOL. Yeah, clearly. I guess I can see it being a thing in these days where (as selenak said) they didn't have reliable ways to assess people's looks, but it's still pretty funny in the 21st century :D

Re: What the Prussian Ambassador Wrote

[cahn]

Man, now I really want Franklin to have done this :P (Though I don't know if he did -- my terrible historical knowledge extends to American history as well, though it's not quite as bad as my European history.)

Re: Algarotti

[cahn]

Haha, this is probably why he is a master of the amicable non-breakup. But wait!! Why didn't Voltaire leave us anecdotes? He's totally the type.

[cahn]

Hee. I don't bring it up that much, although every time I do he seems a little surprised that it's still going. Of course, so am I! (See also: ANOTHER crazy story, every time)

Re: Emotional isolation

[cahn]

Hm. I don't know? I feel like everything I know about childhood development seems to indicate that it's in the very early years that kids learn how to bond, and you seem to have had fairly decent early years. From what I know about you I'm willign to believe that this is actually a difference in personality/genetics/epigenetics.

My daughter is probably going to end up similarly to you in terms of something of indifference to people bonding, and as far as I know she's had loving relationships, and this is something she was born with. (I like to think it wasn't my parenting!) My son seems to have much more people bonding needs and skills.

Re: Emotional isolation

[cahn]

Oh noooooo. :( What I'm getting out of all of this is that not only did everyone have PTSD, but even when things were relatively good (in the sense that MT seems to not have had parental dysfunction passed on like Fritz did), the whole absolute power thing really twisted everyone up :( (Well, okay, that and the lack of therapy. But at least if it weren't for the absolute power thing, it would only have been her that was messed up.)

Now I really want one of those multigenerational sagas that people used to write twenty years ago (do people do that anymore?) based on MT but set in the present day where MT can get therapy and also her kids can do things that don't require them to be beholden to her. :( actually while I'm making out a wishlist, maybe FS can live longer too

(Just checked due to this post, and bio still not out in English. Someday!)

Re: Wilhelmine

[cahn]

Heh. Yeah. My personal experience as a child of... difficult... parents (who are great in many ways, I should append) is that there was certainly a lot of "us against the world" bonding that took place with me and my sister (who are otherwise sufficiently different that we might not have had a close relationship otherwise), whereas D and his siblings, whose parents were basically perfect, seem not to have that bond (though they like each other a lot).

Re: More illustrations - children paintings edition

[cahn]

"You are to make him afraid of his mother, but of me, never."

I can't decide whether to laugh or cry at this. FW, trying to play good cop and bad cop, and just failing miserably!

Re: Casanova

[cahn]

That is a fascinating story, haha, that's awesome paranoia.

I believe Fritz does say "beau homme", not "gentil"

Hm. I will cut the translator a little more slack than you -- American English, at least, doesn't really say "beautiful man" the way that the French (and Germans?) say "beau homme." The closest translation might be "handsome man" or "good-looking man," although that doesn't really have the same connotation, and "fine-looking man" might actually be fairly close (though "fine" alone does tend to make one think of virtues other than one's looks, so I see your point).

Gutenberg uses the Arthur Machen translation, yuuuuup. Right -- note to self to buy a newer translation if/when I end up reading this. (And yes, in general, Gutenberg would have to be < 1960 for copyright.)

this edition allegedly contains passages invented by the (French) translator.

lol, wow!! That's... not something I'm used to seeing from a translator :)

Re: Sibling Correspondance

[cahn]

This is just really sweet. I went !! at the bit where Fritz actually had the self-awareness to pick up that he might be sour-graping :D

But it seems to me that once one knows what human beings are like, one should try to distance oneself from them, for how many more virtues can we find at those we call animals than with the beings gifted with reason!

This makes me sad for Wilhelmine and Fritz :(

If I could have seen his Holiness, I may have made him my Cicisbeo, for I admit to you I am a bit attracted to the fantastic. But alas, our love was not to be.

This is the best. Wilhemine is legit The BEST. (I had to look up cicisbeo, though :D)

By the way, thank you for the footnotes/notes, as I would not have picked up on any of that :P

Re: Meanwhile, in Sweden

[cahn]

WHAT
!!!!!

Welp, you're right. I definitely did not guess where that was going. GUSTAV. WHOA. (Also, kudos to Munck for putting it in writing, omg.)

(The really hilarious thing is that I started writing a Don Carlo fic last year with a premise a little like this because Philip clearly needs help, and gave it up because it was just too crazy. Clearly I should resurrect it :P )

Re: Meanwhile, in Sweden

[selenak]

Munck appears to have been quite aware of how the triangle in neighbouring Denmark with Queen, Queen's lover and King who is friends with Queen's lover who is also his doctor had ended - badly for the Queen and the lover. (More here; the Queen in question, btw, was a Hannover cousin of Fritz and Wilhelmine's .)

He even had the chambermaid (aka the one Munck had originally been involved with) and one of Sophia Magdalena's ladies in waiting testify that he, Munck, had been required to touch both the King and the Queen as part of the "instructions", that it had been Gustav's idea and he, Munck, was only servicing the royal couple as had been asked.

(Leopold to Joseph: Aren't you glad Mom didn't marry little Toni to Gustav instead of Louis?
Joseph: Not funny, Poldl.)

Something else the rabbit hole going revealed to me: historians apparently went into contortions re: Gustav's sexuality as much as they did about Fritz. Post-heir getting, this happened:

Gustav's sister-in-law Charlotte in a letter: Guess what, the King proposed to a young man in the park and was turned down.

Historians: Slander! Caused by family feud.

Queen Sophia Magdalena: *finds a naked hot page in Gustav's bed, though minus Gustav*

Traditional historians: Must have been lost for directions and passed out. Says something about the informality of the Gustavian court, clearly. I mean, Gustav did have female crushes as a young man, didn't he? And he's totally straight in the Verdi opera, too!

Also I learned that Ulrike, in true Hohenzollern insulting one's offspring in publich spirit, reacted thusly when first shown the portrait of her future daughter-in-law (at a formal presentation of said portrait to the crown prince, i.e. Gustav):

"Why Gustav, you seem to be in love with her already. She looks stupid."

Charles the scheming ambitious brother after the murder of Gustav (Charles: I had nothing to do with that! That could be proven, anyway) became regent for little Gustav IV Adolf (born nine months after successful "instruction" by Munck); then, when his nephew ascended to the throne upon reaching his majority, conspired with the nobility against him, with the net result being that Gustav IV Adolf was forced to abdicate. Charles then finally became King in his own right, but alas for him...

Napoleon: It's a new age, what can I say.
Charles: *has stroke*
Swedish Parliament: We have a King severely disabled by a stroke and no surviving son. Also we have the Russians on one border and continental Europe ruled by Napoleon on the other. How about the King is made to adopt one of Napoleon's marshals as his heir?

Gustav IV Adolf *in exile*: So, I'm not good enough because I'm possibly the son of a Finnish sex machine, but a French commoner who has "death to kings" tattood on his arm is?

Charles (or rather, the parliament for him): Please greet our new crown prince and future king, Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte, aka Karl Johan of Sweden!

Re: Sibling Correspondance

[selenak]

Cicisbeo: I had to look it up, too, but in a previous letter, because Fritz earlier asked her whether she had one yet.

Wilhelmine, Fritz and their "dogs are the better people" conviction: in addition to their background, Wilhelmine had lived through the Bayreuth town residence burning down, with her and the Margrave in it, and the Bayreuth population not lifting a finger to help them, or to quench the fire. Obviously, they made it out alive, but that experience deeply shocked her, not least because it underscored how unpopular they both were. The main reason was money, i.e. her building the beautiful Eremitage and the gorgeous Rokoko opera house (that several generations later would be Wagner's reason for moving to Bayreuth in the first place), along with the garden of Sanspareil, and the Margrave living in Rokoko prince style (provincial edition), too. Not to mention that the Bayreuth/Prussia alliance meant Franconians ended up as soldiers in the various conflicts between Fritz & MT. Now Fritz who spent even more money on cultural things and whose fault most of the wars were still was (for most of his reign) very popular and beloved in his kingdom because nobody doubted he was simultanously a workoholic and he took that "first servant of the state" thing seriously. But the Margrave was decidedly not a workoholic, and Wilhelmine wasn't allowed to do any governing because WOMAN. So they had the "this couple taxes us and spends our money on their hobbies, AND our sons are prone to die in wars we have zilch to do with" anger from the population.

I went !! at the bit where Fritz actually had the self-awareness to pick up that he might be sour-graping :D

Same here, when I first read it. I was also struck by the second image he uses, of the galley slave.

Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture

[selenak]

Jeanne Poisson, Marquise de Pompadour, also nicknamed "Reinette": heroine of the Doctor Who episode The Girl in the Fireplace, among so many other things. (I just can't help bringing that up!). She was a smart, well read woman who from girlhood onwards literally was trained to become a royal mistress one day by her ambitious mother (despite not being of noble blood, which until then was a strict condition). When she married, she did warn her husband what she had in mind, but promised she would be loyal otherwise. (He became the father of her only daughter.) At age 20, she managed to meet the King, intrigued him, became his mistress and then amazed everyone by staying his mistress until her death, despite the fact their sexual relationship ran its course after about a decade. She was the only one of Louis XV's mistresses who made a point out of cultivating the Queen (Maria Lesczynska, Polish, and ridiculed by the French courtiers as backward and boring) as well, being nice to her and influencing Louis to include her more in his life. Accordingly, the Queen backed her up when the clerics really started to gun for her once it was evident the Marquise would not go away. In her most famous portrait, she's depicting holding a copy of the dictionary by Diderot and D'Alembert, which is a statement because that book was forbidden by censorship at the time.

Or, maybe I'll just ask, tell me about how Mme de Pompadour brought their alliance with Austria into being??

I'm currently on the road again and thus separated from most of my books, but things to bear in mind before I proceed with what I recall:

- just how unthinkable a France/Austria alliance was at the time, due to all those centuries of enmity. Not for nothing would poor Marie Antoinette be nicknamed "L'Autriechienne", the Austrian (also a pun on "l'autrie chienne", the other dog), as a derogatory term. We're talking long established loathing and nobody but nobody assuming this would ever change, not least because France was the first to jump on the "let's attack MT" train after Fritz started it with invading Silesia

- Fritz' tendency to go Frank Miller on any prominent woman other than a very few, usually related to him, and call them whores. Mme de Pompadour (as well as the Czarina Elizabeth) were of course the most prominent examples.

- Fritz having left the French in the lurch once he got what he wanted (Silesia), this resulting in the Austrians winning against the French

Kaunitz, MT's (and later Joseph's) PM, at this point new in the business: I have this secret master plan to make Fritz a margrave again.
MT: I'm listening.
Kaunitz: It involves allying ourselves with the French and the Russians.
MT: Still listening, but will the French? Last I heard, Louis (XV) and his cabinet still call me "The Queen of Hungary" and hate our guts.
Kaunitz: .... well, how about we approach the King's mistress for help? She's a smart woman and not too fond of being constantly called a whore. I mean, I know you're really opposed to extramarital sex yourself, your highness, but Louis is the biggest practicioner of them all, and we're talking to him anyway. Remember the end goal!
MT: Still listening.

Austrian Ambassador: So, my sovereign wonders whether you could possibly influence the King to sign up in an anti-Fritz-league?
Pompadour: This country sure needs a new policy. We've been stuck in a rut since Louis XIV. Sign me on. But make it a strictly defense pact at first, that'll make it easier to sell it to Louis. To become a fighting alliance only if Fritz attacks first.

MT in Vienna: eh, he's bound to, being him. Okay, convey my thanks to the Marquise.

Elizabeth in Russia: *joins up as well, on the same condition*

Fritz: *hears about MT, Elizabeth and Pompadour ganging up on him* I'm the modern Orpheus, persecuted by a gang of women who want to tear me apart. Okay, time to pre-emptively invade Saxony.

7 Years War: begins

Fritz: *wins early victories*

Louis: Darling, was that really a good idea? I mean, I can't stand the man, either, but the Austrians are our traditional enemies and the Prussians our traditional allies, so...

Pompadour: Look, if there's one thing the last decade or two have shown, it's that the current King of Prussia is the worst ally ever. Whereas MT might have no sense of fashion and no appreciation for Voltaire, but she's loyal. She's never screwed over a single one of her allies and supporters.

France: *stays in*

Fritz: *starts losing battles*

Wilhelmine: I'm really worried about your life, bro. Of course you're still the greatest military genius over, but you're not immune to bullets, and you're in the field a lot. Do you think you could maybe try for a separate peace with France? I could play unofficial ambassador via the mail, because people still write to me, and vice versa.

Fritz: Not that I'm afraid of anything, but you're in a bad state of health, and thus, solely to indulge you... maybe? Theoretically.

Wilhelmine: Obviously, the person to ask, DIPLOMATICALLY, is the Marquise de Pompadour, if that's cool with you?

Fritz: Eh. Why not. Tell her I'm willing to pay up to XXXXX Francs (sorry, I can't remember the exact sum from the letter), that should cover it.

Pompadour: Dear mutual friend, tell the Margravine to tell her brother this is one whore he'll never be able to afford. If he wants peace, he can send an official emissary to his majesty the king. And the Empress.

Fritz: Women! *writes a satirical pamphlet/forgery consisting of a supposed letter from MT to the Marquise which a lot of contemporaries take for the genuine article, with MT calling Pompadour "dearest sister"; this was meant to, and did cause indignation about MT being a hypocrite and traitor to royal dignity for negotiating with a whore*

Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit

[selenak]

hee, I love it!

Me too. This actually had been a tricky question, because on the one hand, France was supporting the American rebels as part of its anti-British policy, but on the other, the King of England, good old George III, was still also Prince Elector of Hannover, and thus a key peer in the HRE. Which Joseph was the ruler of. So both "yay rebels!" and "rebels are the worst!" would have been a slight to someone. This being said, I think the phrase does allow speculation he might have had sneaking sympathies overseas nonetheless.