Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 47

[cahn]

We haven't had a new post since before December 25, so obligatory Yuletide link to this hilarious story of Frederick the Great babysitting his bratty little brother, with bonus Fritz/Fredersdorf!

Comments

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[selenak]

What is a vivandière, a hedonist?
And also, were there any orgies with Cossacks Catherine participated in? I seem to recall that no matter her reputation, her sexual encounters, no matter with long term favourites like Grigorii Orlov and Potemkin or sexy young things in her later years were a one on one combination?

Re: (P)Russian Pete: how is one like Fritz morally? I mean, according to the Duc? Is he referring to the Enlightened Authoritarian Reformist part, or the invading countries part, or the freedom of the penis (and possibly the vagina) promoting gay monarch part?

his favourite amusement had been to dress like his model, to imitate his gestures and his tones

Doing an FW imitation instead, if Poniatotowski is to be believed. Granted, not having actually met Fritz (as opposed to Catherine), getting his gestures and tone right based on description alone must have been tricky...

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[luzula]

What is a vivandière, a hedonist?
It's a female sutler, selling food and wine to soldiers in the French army. I've seen them mentioned when reading military history stuff, but I suppose there were all sorts of cultural associations that went along with the job. Not sure what exactly is implied here--that they slept around and were also prostitutes? But often they were married to soldiers, as I recall.

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[selenak]

Thank you! So basically Mother Courage types?

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[luzula]

Well, I haven't seen/read that, but checking Wikipedia, I suppose so? But as I read in that book about women in the military, there were far more women in armies in the 16th-17th centuries than in the 18th, and the state was much more involved in the supply of food and other necessities in the 18th century.

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[mildred_of_midgard]

but I suppose there were all sorts of cultural associations that went along with the job. Not sure what exactly is implied here--that they slept around and were also prostitutes? But often they were married to soldiers, as I recall.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the Duc is using "vivandière" as a synonym for "camp follower", which gets used (not just by him, by many people) as a synonym for "prostitute". In fact, that's the first meaning in which I encountered "camp follower" when I started reading history as a teenager, and it's still my primary association. Actual demographics means nothing when faced with the prejudices and stereotypes of someone like the Duc.

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[mildred_of_midgard]

Reading the book on Kepler defending his mother from witchcraft accusations, which Selena recommended and I finally got around to picking up because my wife was listening to a podcast episode where the author was interviewed, I found Kepler's father going off to join the army and Kepler's mother tracking him down and demanding he come home. One of her arguments was that it was commonly known that there were lots of single women following the army around, and therefore lots of extramarital sex with soldiers happening.

This was an absolutely normal and widespread perception of what happened in armies with women accompanying them.

(The book is good, btw, very readable even to my slow-German-reading self. And it does exist in English if anyone wants to read it that way.)

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[cahn]

Oh, cool! Which book is this again? Not that I can read this for some time, I'm still reading my Christmas presents!

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[mildred_of_midgard]

You're still reading Christmas presents from previous Christmases! *cough* Massie.

It's Ulinka Rublack's The Astronomer and the Witch, available on Kindle.

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[cahn]

Well, I haven't actively gone back to reading that yet, lol, though I know I should. Whereas I'm actively reading one of selenak's Christmas presents right now, and am a little more passively reading one of yours (it is great to read during trips, which I haven't had one of for a while, but I should be having a couple coming up).

Re: 1764-1772 Foreign policy: Broglie quotes

[mildred_of_midgard]

And also, were there any orgies with Cossacks Catherine participated in?

I doubt it. There were some WILD stories about Catherine's sexual appetites, and people like the Duc are exactly the people who are going to buy them.

If you listen to the Epic Rap Battle about the Great family :P, it's got the lines:

Ivan: I hear you [*wink wink*] enjoy the saddle.
Catherine: That horse story is a pile of shit.

"That horse story" refers to the legend that she died while trying to have sex with a horse, because no man was hung enough to satisfy her. Stories about orgies with Cossacks would fit right in.

Re: (P)Russian Pete: how is one like Fritz morally?

I'm going to guess that Broglie (or rather his translator) is using the term "morally" not to mean "with regard to ethics" but "with regard to personality." It's a less common meaning, but it exists. So Broglie's saying Peter adopts the outer trappings of his hero, but doesn't have that which makes Fritz Fritz.

But as my Greek professor drummed into us, "Never argue about the meaning of the Greek from the English, always argue about the meaning of the Greek from the Greek." So I'm going to go check on the French original here. My guess is going to be that it's a cognate, and that the meaning "psychological" or "personality-wise" is more common in French than it is for the English equivalent. Brb...

Okay, yes, the French term is "moralement". Larousse tells me it has both meanings, and that it has as synonyms "intellectuellement", "psychiquement", and "spirituellement." And the definition of "moral" is listed as:

Ensemble des facultés mentales, de la vie psychique: Le physique influe sur le moral.

Synonymes : mental - psychisme

So I'm going to go with my original interpretation of "psychologically" or "personality-wise" for "morally", and if you can judge by a dictionary, my guess that those meanings are more common in French for this word than for its English equivalent seems to be correct.

(I get to talk about language, yay! :D)

Granted, not having actually met Fritz (as opposed to Catherine), getting his gestures and tone right based on description alone must have been tricky...

Tauentzien: This is why I offer coaching services!