Good point, but then again, you're awwing about Suhm entrusting his children to Fritz.
*ponders*
You know, there are reasons I react more positively there, but you're right, I totally awww at this, so I should just go with it here too.
AWWW!
ETA: the untranslatable sentence - makes no sense in this form
I am always so pleased and relieved when the things I can't figure out don't make sense to you either! I was staring at this sentence going, "I know I often don't know *exactly* what a German sentence is saying and I have to make my best guess, but it's been a long time since I was used to being totally stumped!"
If it's a transcription error for "verlangt", it's not mine: the whole text is in a nice, Mildred-friendly Roman font (if a little faded sometimes), and that's a very clear 'ng'.
But the editor, whose Danish I put into Google translate yesterday, says he struggled a bit with Frederik's letters:
It seemed to me that the King's letters, even where the meaning was a little vague to grasp, required a diplomatically precise presentation, and we know that crowned heads have always had a certain Licentia regia, as far as grammar and letters are concerned.
Fritz: Damn right!
So yeah, it could be "verlasst." I could see where that would be weird in modern German but okay in Rokoko. Thank you for your help! And mostly for your confirmation that my German isn't massively worse than I thought it was.
Now from the sound of your write up, I wouldn't exclude the assumption that some of them are for mishavior not directed at Moltke, but yes, looks like the majority of apologies are for something he said to Moltke himself
Yeah, if you do a close reading with the material I haven't provided you, here's what's driving my interpretation:
- "Betrüben" could go either way: Moltke could easily be upset at the way Frederik is behaving and/or treating other people (like his wife).
- Frederik frequently describes his offenses as his thoughtless/mad/foolhardy "Reden." Now, he could apologize to Moltke for how he talked to other people in front of Moltke or in a way that got back to Moltke, but if another author tried to claim that it was always this, I would call them out for special pleading.
- Then there are occasional places where Frederik says he "beleidigt" or "übel begegnet" Moltke or the like, which I have a hard time interpreting as anything other than abuse aimed directly at Moltke.
- At least once his repentant promise is to change his behavior and "behave as a friend toward Moltke" in future.
- That "you fill in the fluff" where I didn't repeat every line of him telling Moltke he loves him...is a little unfair to you, the reader, because there are two different kinds of "I love you" in these letters. There's "I'm telling you I love you ten times per letter because that's what I do," and then there's "I'm reassuring you that I still love you." The second *could* in theory always be "I know I keep drinking and partying even though I know your advice is good and I keep promising to follow it, and you keep passive-aggressively saying I wouldn't do this if I really loved you," but, in combination with all the other evidence? I can't take most of it as anything other than "I know I said horrible things to you but I didn't mean it, I still love you, let me tell you five more times before closing this letter how much I love you, because I know what I said last night was not really supporting evidence."
it's just as likely that genuine attachment was as big or larger a factor
I am 100% convinced that these two had a deep and complex intertwined relationship with a *lot* of differing feelings, including very intense love and closeness (probably too much in some cases, and I don't mean sexually), and also repressed resentment (and when Frederik is drunk not so repressed resentment on his side). There is no part of me that thinks Moltke was just in it for the power.
But did Frederik the emotionally damaged sometimes wonder, subconsciously, if Moltke might be in it just for the power? Did that trigger some of those outbursts? I wonder.
But if the parent figure isn't the actual parent but lower on the social scale than the royal child, then sometimes even before the child is grown up you have the combination of more social power on the child's side and the emotional power that comes with being loved as a child. I would be very surprised if abuse therefore didn't happen in the other direction under these conditions more than once.
THIS.
And I think that power differential on both sides continued to exist on both sides into adulthood, not just in Frederik's childhood. De jure, Frederik had all the power, and Moltke had to be careful and hold his tongue, but de facto...there's both the emotional parent-child relationship and the pragmatic dependence in the other direction working against Frederik even as an adult. (And also in his favor, but that's what I mean by complex.)
And speaking of this parent-child relationship, I have a headcanon. Now, I know that Frederik opening a ball once with Moltke's wife is meaningless courtly behavior, and in the very same sentence Oettinger says Louisa opens the same ball with the French envoy, and I'm definitely not reading anything deep and Freudian into that! And if you wanted to read methodologically unsound ulterior motives into dancing with Moltke's wife, you could just as easily go the opposite direction and accuse him of being sleazy and having designs on his best friend's wife.
BUT. given that Frederik keeps calling Moltke his father and himself Moltke's son, he wants to marry his daughter, and those letters where he calls himself a father and a mother to Moltke's kids...I have this headcanon that Frederik desperately wants to belong to Moltke's family.
I don't know if this means that Frederik knew the Moltkes reasonably well and actually got along with all or most of them, or if it was more the abstract *idea* of belonging to his favorite person's family that satisfied this deep emotional need, but I keep getting a "please let me be one of you!" vibe. And given his alienation from both his parents, it makes total sense.
I will say this: what's really noticeable to me, a reader of Fritz's letters, is how often Frederik includes Moltke's family in the letters on his own initiative. I keep seeing "say hi to your wife for me" and "I'm devoted to you and your whole family" and of course "I want to be there for your kids even though you haven't asked me to." It's not in all the letters, or even a majority, but enough that it was really jarring to me after the Fritz experience.
Because Fritz does not generally initiate gestures of affection toward people's family. We were completely in the dark as to whether Suhm even took his kids to St. Petersburg, that's how little he talks about them to Fritz! [ETA: I eventually decided that he did, but the evidence is a "blink and you miss" it moment.] Only when Suhm is dying/believes he's dying does he bring them up, and of course Fritz takes on financial responsibility for them, but there's no deep emotional need to be included in someone else's family for him. If he's close to both parties, maybe, like Colonel and Madame Camas, he might mention the other person's spouse/family, but even without having done more than browse those letters, it doesn't strike me as anything like what Frederik is doing.
Fritz, of course, had a mother he loved, and a sister, and at least close and intense, if contentious, relationships with his numerous siblings. Frederik had two parents who were apparently cold to him, and one sister who may or may not have had a real relationship with him, it hasn't come up in my reading. But Moltke has (eventually) 22 kids!
13 with the first wife, then 9, apparently. Neither wife had to play Agnes of Waiblingen, fortunately! (Though 13 and 9 are still a lot!)
Anyway, I can see Frederik wanting to belong not just to Moltke (he does say "I belong to you"), but to his large surrogate family. And even though I'm sure he opened balls with a lot of people, I like to imagine him getting a "Yes! I am one of you!" feeling when its his turn to dance with Mrs./Countess Moltke. ;)
(I also imagine him feeling deeply wounded by the 1752 rejection, and I imagine Moltke thinking, "Look, I'm sorry I have to hurt you, but there are 0 ways this goes well and an almost unlimited number of ways it goes badly. If our entire relationship is based around me being the responsible adult so you don't have to, then I'm going to have to make the responsible adult decision here." And just like with Anna Maria Franziska, I am with him on this.)
he wasn't personally rude and/or verbally cruel, and certainly not physically so according to what we know.
Agreed. Though I'm amusedly thinking of Horowksi's anecdote where Louis asked if it wasn't unpleasant for everyone else to have to walk in the rain bare-headed when they were with him. ;)
Anyway, it's extremely mild as such things go! I doubt Frederik would have written a profusely apologetic letter over something like that. ;)
Edited 2023-02-18 15:16 (UTC)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
I also imagine him feeling deeply wounded by the 1752 rejection
Speaking of 1752, look at the dates for the apology letters:
1744: 1 letter 1749: 1 letter 1752: 5 letters 1753: 1 letter 1755: 2 letters 1756: 1 letter 1759: 1 letter 1760: 1 letter
Now, as I keep saying, that is a small, non-representative sample, and there are all those undated letters, but between the dead wife and unborn baby, the rejection by the Moltke family, and the pressure into an unwanted marriage...I would not be surprised if 1752 was an especially bad year to be Frederik or to be around Frederik. And that maybe that played a role in the marriage with Juliana not working out so well.
ETA: Honestly, even if this sample is biased by selection by Moltke, maybe Moltke remembered it as an especially bad year for their relationship.
Edited 2023-02-18 15:25 (UTC)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Letters: agreed. Am also reminded of the publication of Sylvia Plath's letters to her mother, which her mother Aurelia explicitly chose to prove that everything was fine between her and Sylvia, and Sylvia wasn't the vicious ingrate from the poems and "The Bell Jar" who offers a satiric negative mother portrait for all the world to read, Sylvia was a wonderful loving daughter who kept telling her mother how wonderful Aurelia was. And of course the publication only made that mother/daughter relationship come across neurotic and co-dependent in reviewer's minds. What I'm getting at: I bet Moltke included all those apology letters to show what a great guy Frederik was and how affectionate and great their relationship with the same mindset of Aurelia Plath, that the lashing-out King wasn't the "real" Frederik... little realizing that readers might wonder what Frederik is apologizing for, etc.
But did Frederik the emotionally damaged sometimes wonder, subconsciously, if Moltke might be in it just for the power? Did that trigger some of those outbursts? I wonder.
I bet he did. That's what emotionally damaged monarchs do. Especially those with little to no self esteem due to it having been consistently attacked/destroyed in their childhood by their parents/teachers.
I will say this: what's really noticeable to me, a reader of Fritz's letters, is how often Frederik includes Moltke's family in the letters on his own initiative. I keep seeing "say hi to your wife for me" and "I'm devoted to you and your whole family" and of course "I want to be there for your kids even though you haven't asked me to." It's not in all the letters, or even a majority, but enough that it was really jarring to me after the Fritz experience.
That is a very interesting compare and contrast, and it does speak of the very different emotional needs these two have. It makes sense that Frederik the Dane doesn't just want to be Moltke's priority, he wants to belong to Moltke's family, whereas Fritz wants to be his favourite people's priority and preferably not be reminded of them having other priorities. Mind you, Fritz can fake it. I would like to remind everyone of the difference between King Fritz and Crown Prince Fritz in the Voltaire letters vis a vis Émilie, again. As long as he's still Crown Prince, he does mention her and sends regards and even corresponds with her himself. As soon as he's King, it's "it's my friend Voltaire whom I want to have here, not the Marquise, no matter how divine she is", while ironically he can't stop himself from bringing her up as competition even when doesn't have to (such as in the poems he writes supposedly for Ulrike to Voltaire), it's very clear that's how he sees her, competition.
(He does mention Wilhelmine's husband in the letters to her, but usually specifically because she asked for his advice re: should BayreuthFriedrich do this or that, or promising her he'll keep an eye on him and protect him should BayreuthFriedrich join everyone at Philippsburg. But I don't recall casual "so, how's your husband?" or "remind me to your husband!", and there's a decided non-interest in Wilhelmine's daughter, too, unless she brings her up first (as in young Friederike Sophie's marriage troubles). To be fair, as we noted Wilhelmine never asks about Fredersdorf, either.)
Fritz, of course, had a mother he loved, and a sister, and at least close and intense, if contentious, relationships with his numerous siblings. Frederik had two parents who were apparently cold to him, and one sister who may or may not have had a real relationship with him, it hasn't come up in my reading.
Indeed. Basically, Frederik has one thing in common with Harry Potter, which is Moltkes = Weasleys and the overwhelming wish to belong to this family beyond the friendship to one particular member, while Fritz already has all the family he wants or needs, dysfunctional or not.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
And of course the publication only made that mother/daughter relationship come across neurotic and co-dependent in reviewer's minds.
Wow, yes, that sounds familiar.
What I'm getting at: I bet Moltke included all those apology letters to show what a great guy Frederik was and how affectionate and great their relationship with the same mindset of Aurelia Plath, that the lashing-out King wasn't the "real" Frederik...
Yep, I agree. Especially if it *was* mostly drunk Frederik doing this, it would have been very easy (and a very common thing to do) to compartmentalize "sober, affectionate Frederik" as the "real" Frederik.
little realizing that readers might wonder what Frederik is apologizing for, etc.
Yeah, and I mean, it worked on a lot of people! "Look how loving he is! Look how much he looks up to Moltke, who is his moral compass!" Only some of us read those and went, "...Are you okay, Moltke? Do you need help? Is he hitting you?"
(Everyone here needs help. The repeated "it won't happen again," which I read as 100% sincere, just underlined his total lack of control or any idea what to do about his problems. Alas, willpower does not fix psychological issues any more than good intentions do, and no root causes actually got addressed here with all the praying and repenting and vowing.)
I bet he did. That's what emotionally damaged monarchs do. Especially those with little to no self esteem due to it having been consistently attacked/destroyed in their childhood by their parents/teachers.
Exactly what I'm thinking.
whereas Fritz wants to be his favourite people's priority and preferably not be reminded of them having other priorities.
Yep, that's our Fritz, someone wrote a whole fic about Fredersdorf's need for drastic time-loop measures just to get permission to marry!
but usually specifically because she asked for his advice re: should BayreuthFriedrich do this or that, or promising her he'll keep an eye on him and protect him should BayreuthFriedrich join everyone at Philippsburg. But I don't recall casual "so, how's your husband?" or "remind me to your husband!", and there's a decided non-interest in Wilhelmine's daughter, too, unless she brings her up first
Yep, that's why I was specifying Frederik did this on his own initiative. And yeah, Fritz could totally fake it, as you remind me, but that's not what's going on here either, imo.
Mind you, I have this horrible suspicion, after reading the letters, that some of the protesting that he is devoted to Moltke's family too may be because he has given some counterevidence the day before. I would not be surprised to learn that there was a "Well I don't want to marry your stupid daughter anyway!" (or worse) outburst. But I would need to do a much closer reading to see if maybe I'm conflating the apologetic tone with the family mentions in an unfounded way. My German is still not instantaneous and requires some focus, and 18th century spelling is interesting, so mistakes happen.
To be fair, as we noted Wilhelmine never asks about Fredersdorf, either.
Ahahaha, Wilhelmine is the epitome of needing to be top priority, and she also had "all the family she wants or needs, dysfunctional or not."
Basically, Frederik has one thing in common with Harry Potter, which is Moltkes = Weasleys and the overwhelming wish to belong to this family beyond the friendship to one particular member
Ha! That's a great analogy. The one I had been thinking of is a much more obscure novelization of the Nibelungenlied/Volsunga saga by Diana Paxson, where Sigfrid likes Gudrun and all, but what *really* drives him is wanting to be part of her family. When he marries her, he gets brothers!!
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Okay, since you like family dynamics, here's a summary of letters that mention Moltke's family, with the mention of them actually translated and not just summarized. Numbering is the same as in my previous list.
Dated letters:
1. Since your letter mentioned your wife was happily delivered, my congratulations.
Mildred note: Maybe this is reading too much in, but he doesn't just say "congrats on the child," he actually mentions the wife as a person. And though he says "I hope to see you again so I can tell you orally how happy I am for you," he doesn't seem to question why he's not Moltke's top priority today.
2. I'm glad to hear you've safely arrived in Moen. My compliments and best to your wife, and please recommend me in constant favor and goodwill.
5. I want to prove my love to you, and therefore I hereby promise in writing to my very dearest Moltke that he and his family can have Svanholm for all time, cost what it may.
Mildred note: This is from the crown prince days.
9. Sorry I've been so sad today. Tomorrow, God willing, you will see a good and friendly face, and I will take pleasure in proving to you how much love and respect I have, not just for you, but for your whole family. Greet your dear wife many times.
Mildred: This is the one right after Frederik's wife dies.
11. I'm sorry, I won't do it again, be assured that until death I will love and care for you and your whole family as much as for myself.
12. I'm sorry you didn't sleep well and were upset, forgive me, I won't do it again, God bless the best friend I have in the entire world, until my end and my last sigh I will live and die your sincere friend and faithful son, and will remain until my end a protector, carer, and father to your whole family.
13. I'm sorry, I have a very hot head, may God bestow on you and your whole family all the blessings and benevolence that is spoken of in the Holy Scriptures.
18. The cute "Do I have to challenge you to a duel to see you? I miss you!" one, culminating in "And I will remain until my grave your faithful friend and father for all your children."
Mildred note: Moltke's first wife is still alive at this point, and Frederik is already promising to be a father to the kids. What will be different when the wife dies is that he'll also promise to be a mother!
20. I'm really sorry, please take this keepsake as a sign of the true and unchanging love and respect that I have for you and your whole family.
21. Love you forever, have some breakfast I'm sending over, greet your wife for me, and both of you be assured that I will never, as long as I live, cease to love you sincerely and respect you and to take care of the whole family like a father and do whatever an honest Frederik can do.
22. I know I have a hot head, but my heart always loves you. God keep you and bless you and your whole family.
24. I remain until death your and your family's sincere friend.
26. I am drinking to your health, and sending you a glass of the same "medicine" with a request that you take it for my health or even that of your wife, whom I greet many times. God bless you and your whole dear family.
Mildred note: Yeah, this has to be wine, re my "medicine or wine?" question in the first write-up.
27. The "satanic behavior" outlier letter.
Mildred note: This one has *no* mention of the family, for whatever that's worth. At least it doesn't sound like he offended *them*.
28. Happy birthday, God bless you and keep you and your dear-to-my-heart family.
29. I hope to see you well and sound tomorrow. God bless and keep you; greet your dear wife many times for me.
30. Have a ring as a token of how sorry I am for causing you distress yesterday through my hot head. I am until your faithful friend and a father to your whole family.
31. New Year's gifts and best wishes exchange. Thank your dear wife many times for the gifts too, and be assured that I am yours and your family's sincerely faithful friend now and for all time.
32. So sorry, don't be sad, I'll make your oldest son marshal today! Greet many times the kids and "Kattjen", and do believe that until death I am and will remain a faithful friend and father to you and yours.
Mildred note: obviously the one where Moltke's wife has just died. selenak, that "Kattjen"--does that look like "cats" or a nickname to you, or what? If the former, then you've found another powerful man who prefered cats to dogs!
33. [Another condolence letter received on the same day as the previous.] May God preserve you as a comfort to your children and also to me. I will faithfully take care of your dear children as a father and a mother.
34. I'm sending your son the chamberlain key because it's the only thing I can think of to make you feel better right now. I remain until my grave a sincerely faithful friend and father to you and yours.
35. Please forgive me for upsetting you. P.S. I have many greetings from Fieke Raaben.
Mildred note: Sophie Raben is the woman Moltke will marry in a couple of months.
Undated letters:
10. Don't be so upset, I love you, I will try all my life to follow your admonishments, you won't regret it. I will sincerely love your and yours until death.
11. I love you SO much. P.S. I beg you again for forgiveness, I'm sorry for upsetting you, I still belong to you. P.P.S. Greet your dear wife many times for me.
13. I'm glad you're feeling better. God bless you and keep you and your dear wife and children, and please greet all of them for me.
15. Business related stuff. Please greet your dear wife and kids many times for me.
18. I'm really sorry I upset you yesterday so much that you got sick, please forgive me, it will never happen again in my life. God bless you and keep you and also your dear family.
22. I beg your forgiveness for all the ways in which I've offended you. Please rest assured it was not out of malice nor happened with my will and knowledge. You know what a hot head I have, but you can totally trust that I'll never upset you again. God bless and keep you and your dear wife happy and healthy for a million years, as a comfort for your dear children and as a heartfelt joy for me and my children.
Mildred note: Hey, his own kids get a mention for once!
25. More hunting today? God bless and keep you and your dear-to-my-heart family, and always do more good for you-all than I can say. I will never cease to love you and yours sincerely and do good for you in every way and shape until my grave.
28. Congratulations on the happy day. I wish with all my soul that the almighty, gracious God will let you and your dear wife live happy and healthy together and see your children and children's children, and I will never abandon yours. Until my grave I am a very sincerely faithful friend to you and your whole family.
29. I hope you slept well, I'm sending you some breakfast with good thoughts for your health, greet your dear wife many times for me.
Mildred note: Looks like I misnumbered this as 30 in the other list.
Notes:
1. I am reminded that G1 was a much better father to his illegitimate kids than to his legitimate ones. That makes me more willing to give into my "aww". Though the dynamic with Moltke remains dysfunctional and abusive, the one does not cancel out the other, in either direction. People are complicated!
2. Can you imagine Fritz writing these letters? I cannot.
3. My fears that Frederik is apologizing for offending the family *seem* to be unfounded after a close reading, though it's not impossible.
4. For the ones where he may be apologizing for the escapades, and even the ones where he's not but he's heaping up expressions of love beyond what I've seen in "normal" over-the-top 18th century letters, I do wonder if Moltke's "admonishments" ever included "If you really love me, you'll get your act together." The amount of over-the-top-ness could be within normal human variation and just due to Frederik's personality, and I may be unfairly maligning Moltke, but so many people take that kind of passive-aggressive approach that I wonder. Especially as I could see it being a way of chastising an out-of-control monarch without alienating him (but probably feeding into a dysfunctional dynamic contributing to more outbursts in the long-term).
Also, I don't know if this is coming across, but the summaries are really not conveying the over-the-topness. I had read in Wikipedia/biographical dictionaries that these letters are startling, and I admit I rolled my eyes and went, "Guys, it's the 18th century, how startling can they be? You clearly haven't read anyone else's letters." Then I, a doubting Thomas, actually read the letters, and okay, yeah.
The difference between this collection and what I've seen the 18th century as a whole is not qualitative, it's quantitative. Frederik says the same over-the-top things any 18th century letter-writer does, but he says them like 20 times and strings all the adjectives and clauses together as if he can convince by word count alone. It's all the more startling given the ratio to actual content.
Again, these are a selection that was chosen to be light on actual content (actual content got destroyed) and high on affection (that's why Moltke wanted to share them), but given that these are selected to be the most high-octane desperately loving ones, they do feel above average to me, someone who hasn't read as much as Selena but has read somewhat.
5. Note, these are *not* all the letters where Frederik refers to Moltke as his father or himself as Moltke's son. I can count those ones if you're interested. ;)
Edited 2023-02-19 23:07 (UTC)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
he actually mentions the wife as a person. And though he says "I hope to see you again so I can tell you orally how happy I am for you," he doesn't seem to question why he's not Moltke's top priority today.
That is indeed notable (and very unFritzian). Incidentally, not really comparable in terms of personalities or power, but in the Goethe/Schiller letters, it's noticable that Goethe usually sends his regards to Mrs. Schiller, and they keep informing each other about newly arrived (and sadly, died) babies and the kids' states of health, but not once does Schiller mention Christiane, Goethe's life partner and later spouse, even after having stayed at Goethe's for two weeks where she would have been the his hostess. This is not due to raging jealousy, as slashy and Goethe and Schiller are, but to social snobbery, since Christiane much of the time of the Goethe/Schiller friendship is Christiane Vulpius, common-law spouse, and Goethe only marries her officially after the Napoleonic invasion has started. Anyway, back to Frederik, I agree that he seems to see the family, especially Mrs. Moltke, as people, not just social adjuncts, and wants to belong to that family. Like I said, they are his Weasleys!
"Kattjen"--does that look like "cats" or a nickname to you, or what?
Not withstanding the existence of the word "Kätzchen" I'm betting on it being a nickname for a Catherine, both due to "-jen" ending, which sounds like something Plattdeutsch (Northest German dialect) and as far as I osmosed Danish do to names), and to the possibility of misspelling "Käthchen" - i.e. "Kate".
Speaking of North German nicknames, I see with second Mrs. Moltke we have another case of a Sophie being nicknamed Fieke.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
since Christiane much of the time of the Goethe/Schiller friendship is Christiane Vulpius, common-law spouse
Right, yes, she's the artificial flower-maker? *checks* Yes, she is!
Anyway, back to Frederik, I agree that he seems to see the family, especially Mrs. Moltke, as people, not just social adjuncts, and wants to belong to that family. Like I said, they are his Weasleys!
That is such a great analogy. :D
Not withstanding the existence of the word "Kätzchen" I'm betting on it being a nickname for a Catherine, both due to "-jen" ending, which sounds like something Plattdeutsch (Northest German dialect) and as far as I osmosed Danish do to names), and to the possibility of misspelling "Käthchen" - i.e. "Kate".
Thanks! I didn't recognize it from modern standard German and figured it could be a North German or 18th century misspelling of either.
Okay, then, now I wonder who this Kattjen is? A sister? An in-law? The oldest daughter Catherine (married off at 14 to avoid marrying Frederik), now married with kids and thus possibly not included under "Kinder"?
Speaking of the kids, I observed yesterday that one of the sons was born in 1773, when Moltke was 62 and his second wife was 41! I mean, my mother also had her last child at 41, but not in the 18th century and after 8 other kids.
Speaking of North German nicknames, I see with second Mrs. Moltke we have another case of a Sophie being nicknamed Fieke.
I saw that! So we have SD, Sophie Charlotte ("Figuelotte"), and Sophie von Moltke. Am I missing any?
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Speaking of the kids, I observed yesterday that one of the sons was born in 1773, when Moltke was 62 and his second wife was 41! I mean, my mother also had her last child at 41, but not in the 18th century and after 8 other kids.
Quite. And even in the 18th century, there were methods to have sex that didn't involve the risk of procreation. Now, MT was nearly that old when she had her last pair of kids (Marie Antoinette in 1755, Max the future Cologne guy in 1756, and MT was born in 1717), number 15 and 16 respectively, but MT was a Catholic monarch with an iron constitution and presumably was the one to make the decision of risking pregnancy. One wonders why it didn't occur to Moltke to try, well, alternate sex methods rather than risking his wife's life at this point. My instinctive guess is that not just family life but marital life, including sex, was his time away from Frederik and he felt he needed the relief in order to be otherwise constantly available, and wasn't the type ot cheat on his wife.
I saw that! So we have SD, Sophie Charlotte ("Figuelotte"), and Sophie von Moltke. Am I missing any?
Not in canon, but in that novel where brothers Thomas and Heinrich Mann collaborate on a Fritz and Heinrich novel which manages to squander this great premise after a promising beginning, Heinrich does think of his childhood bff and current Empress of Russia as "Fieke" at one point when he wonders how she's doing.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
One wonders why it didn't occur to Moltke to try, well, alternate sex methods rather than risking his wife's life at this point. My instinctive guess is that not just family life but marital life, including sex, was his time away from Frederik and he felt he needed the relief in order to be otherwise constantly available, and wasn't the type ot cheat on his wife.
I had more or less the same thought: that like you suspect Caroline Marie Daum was for Fredersdorf during the Fritz/Voltaire explosion, Moltke's wives (and children?) were his haven during his turbulent relationship with Frederik. I keep saying it: Moltke was the only one who thought marriage would solve all of Frederik's problems in 1752, and unlike in 1743, he had a ton of evidence to the contrary, so I take that as reason to believe marriage made *him* feel better. Was Juliana Maria really such a political catch that the marriage couldn't have waited 2 years? By then, Augusta might have been available!
Hmm, actually, maybe the thinking wasn't "Marriage will fix Frederik's drinking and orgies" as everyone keeps saying it was, maybe it was "New wife may be someone I can delegate some emotional availability for Frederik to, so I *don't* have to be available 24/7 and I don't burn out." Huh, that's the first fully rational explanation for pushing a marriage neither Frederik nor the Danish people wanted to happen this soon. I suppose maybe getting a spare to go with the heir, as there was only one (unstable) son at that point and Frederik was clearly drinking himself to death.
Anyway, I still think given Moltke's own life choices: 7-year engagemnt starting at age 18, immediate remarriage, 22 kids going into his 60s, and married until his death, that marriage was his happy place.
Now, I note that 1773 is 7 years after Frederik's death in January 1766, and that there were multiple kids born after Frederik died, but 1) once something is working for you, you tend to hang onto it, 2) mental health issues tend not to occur in isolation, so if Moltke's got that dysfunctional relationship with Frederik for so long, he may have other issues either as cause, effect, or both, and those may still be in play in 1773.
I did independently come to the same conclusion as you that Moltke probably wasn't the type to cheat on his wife, although of course that remains to be seen. (Mind you, with 22 kids plus the rest of his schedule, he would have had to have been taking scheduling tips from Algarotti to fit a mistress or prostitutes in!)
Actually, did Algarotti go to Copenhagen? No, I don't think he did. Well, you weren't missing anything, Algarotti, in either reign.
Thinking about it, it makes sense: 1746 is when Frederik came to power, 1730s is when Algarotti is roaming. Until 1746, "no fun allowed!" Christian VI was in charge, so Copenhagen would not have been the place to look for a job if you were an Algarotti. Either at a personal or a professional level. ;)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Hmm, actually, maybe the thinking wasn't "Marriage will fix Frederik's drinking and orgies" as everyone keeps saying it was, maybe it was "New wife may be someone I can delegate some emotional availability for Frederik to, so I *don't* have to be available 24/7 and I don't burn out."
Could be, and I don't see it as mutually exclusive with "it works for me, so of course it will work for him!"
Mind you, there's one more thing we haven't considered, true for both Moltke and Frederik in different ways. As the unofficial PM, you don't need a wife just for your personal happiness and for the sex. Sure, you're a rich noble who can afford the staff to take care of your kids, but you still have a great representative household and society life to manage, which you really don't have the time for, and that is what the wife of a grand political noble does.
With Frederik, of an uncertain temper, alcolism and emotional instability, I very much doubt he was up to much of the representative side of being a monarch. (Hanging out in brothels does not count.) I mean, our Fritz essentially handed over conventional court life to EC on the one hand and his younger brothers on the other with attending the occasional ball during carnival season. His lengthy meals and concerts were only with his chosen small circle, but that didn't make the court life and the need for aristocratic gladhandling and hospital openings etc. go away, it just meant Fritz wasn't the one to do it. And there, btw, you have another reason why he doesn't get divorced from EC in 1740 immediately when he can do it. (Though I still agree that an even better reason was the fact if he did it, he'd have been pressured to remarry as at that point everyone else's expectations still must have been that he'd continue the dynasty personally, even if his own expectations were already AW would do it for him.) He needed her to hold court and do some of the representing, even if at that point SD was still there to happily hold court and represent.
Which brings me back to the Danes: if Frederik doesn't remarry immediately - is his sister still around and available to hold court for him? Or his mother? Because if not, you have another reason why Moltke was pressing for remarriage. (I bet no one had complaints about Juliana Maria's ability to represent, btw.)
but in that novel where brothers Thomas and Heinrich Mann collaborate on a Fritz and Heinrich novel which manages to squander this great premise after a promising beginning
Gosh, I'm even more annoyed about this now than when you first brought it up. It seems like such a GREAT premise!
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
God bless and keep you and your dear wife happy and healthy for a million years, as a comfort for your dear children and as a heartfelt joy for me and my children.
Mildred note: Hey, his own kids get a mention for once!
I meant to add that Moltke was *not* a heartfelt joy for Frederik's children, or at least not for the one we hear from, Christian VII. A quote from Christian that I've encountered in several different places is "Storch vom unten, Fuchs vom oben" = "stork from below, fox from above." In other words, Moltke was tall, lanky, and clever/sneaky. At least one historian (I forget which) commented: Well, Christian wasn't wrong.
That's more evidence, btw, that Moltke was not in it just for the power but for his intense relationship with Frederik: he did not chase the rising sun, but remained with Frederik until the very end, covering for him and being emotionally available. Just four years later [ETA: I forgot, this happened twice: once only about 4 *months* later, then again about 4 years later], he got kicked out without a pension and never held power again.
By the way, this is what Holm has to say about the embezzlement accusations:
If you look at what Moltke had to thank the king for, then it is a fact that the latter presented him with the Bregentwood estate, that he increased this with Dalby Church and gave him the right to call to a couple of nearby churches as well as some other favors as an estate owner; but that is also all, and it was absolutely no more than what the despotic kings had regularly given to men who were close to them; Moltke had to buy Thurebyholm, which had previously been state property, at a price fixed by the Interest Chamber, which corresponded to what was usually paid for such property. The annual salary Moltke earned as High Court Marshal was 4000 Rigsdaler and 1117 Rdl. in Remuneration for the Marshal's Deputy, a salary that also has nothing special about it, and you cannot see from the Accounts of the Private Fund that he has received gifts of money, like the fairly common ones the king wanted to help. No one has been able to prove that he has accepted kickbacks and gifts. It is probably certain that a Gehejmeraad v. Støcken bequeathed him the estate of Gammelgaard on Lolland, and it is likely that this was recompense for a service he had done him. But we don't know anything more about that. From foreign courtiers he received presents on certain occasions; but it happened quite publicly, as was common custom in those days; such corresponded to the Order decorations of our time. Nothing of all this can put any stain on his name. When he built his mansion at Amalienborg, the king presented him with over 2 million Flensburg bricks (to a value of 13,517 Rd.); but Moltke also caused, or at least consented, that 330,936 bricks were delivered to him, which should actually have been used for the Frederikskirken, as he thereby avoided paying the price that the supplier in question was supposed to have for delivering them to the Church; he got them cheaper that way. This was indefensible and slippery, and certainly unworthy of Moltke; but it was also in reality a big trifle, and it therefore in no way overturns the general impression that one has that he did not abuse his position to enrich himself. How he took his personal position to the king, we shall soon see, and as far as his behavior is concerned, there is not a single trait preserved that testifies to a bad character, that he was crooked or sought to harm others.
If I ever get the 2010 monograph, I'll be curious if they agree.
(No, I have not forgotten that I owe our Fredersdorf a defense! Prep work is in progress, but it will probably be some months before proper work starts.)
Edited 2023-02-20 20:33 (UTC)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
I meant to add that Moltke was *not* a heartfelt joy for Frederik's children, or at least not for the one we hear from, Christian VII.
This doesn't surprise me, either. The Duke of Buckingham who was the favourite of both James I (and VI) and of his son Charles I. is still the only example I can think of where a very powerful royal favourite managed to be one for a father and son duo of successive monarchs, and it wouldn't have worked if good old Steynie hadn't befriended young Charles long before his father's death. Between ruling the country and being emotionally available to one messed up monarch 24/7, Moltke must have had his plate more than full. Another unstable prince to care for would have been just too much. And most neglected children aren't going to love the guy their neglectful father was crazy about.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Between ruling the country and being emotionally available to one messed up monarch 24/7, Moltke must have had his plate more than full.
*And* the Academy of Arts, *and* the Asiatic Company--he reminds me of Fredersdorf! A finger in every pie.
I think what saved him was that he wasn't a micromanager or autocrat, that he was willing to let the committees of other nobles do most of the work, and his job was to review their write-ups and guide Frederik in making a decision. Still a lot of work! But not Fritzian levels. That's also, as you and various authors have noted, partly how he managed to hang onto his position: he was a good team player.
Also, re the 24/7 thing, the good news is that after more research, I've come to the tentative conclusion that at least during most of Frederik's reign, Moltke lived with his (Weasley) family and only joined Frederik at the palace in the morning, after breakfast. During the crown prince days, he slept in the same room or next door to Frederik, and when Frederik was dying, he slept in the same room, but other than that, I suspect he had some alone time/family time. Which might explain why he lasted so long (also relevant to your other comment, which I'll reply to).
This also makes me think that a lot of the apology letters might be pre-emptive, when Frederik woke up realizing what he'd done and frantically apologizing in writing *before* he got the silent treatment. Though I still have some memories of at least a few being "Please talk to me!", I would need to do a closer reading to see if that holds up.
And most neglected children aren't going to love the guy their neglectful father was crazy about.
Ding ding ding! Because I got to the part in Moltke's memoirs yesterday where he talks about his dismissal, and you get one guess who he blames.
...Dun dun dun...
The evil advisors!
And I was like, "Moltke, I like you well enough from this very safe distance, but I know what Christian's childhood was like. His father ignored him, his governor abused him, and you did nothing about either of these things. In fact, you may even have been responsible for appointing the governor, I have no idea. But Holm or Oettinger said that the governor said that he had never once spoken to Frederik, so...I don't see why Christian *would* like you."
Moltke: But dying Frederik specifically told Christian to be especially nice to me, because I had served him faithfully and well since he was 7!
Me: Frederik...the neglectful and probably abusive father? Look, I respect that you didn't drop Frederik like a hot potato as soon as it became clear he was dying, but there's only so much you can expect from the abused child who got no attention from either of you!
Another unstable prince to care for would have been just too much.
Absolutely, and there's no guarantee that he would have clicked or been successful with the other unstable prince, even if he'd been willing to give it his best effort. Frederik and Christian seem to have had very different mental health issues and very different personalities.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Of course he does. It's really the go to explanation through the centuries.
Hervey: Not for me. I'm quite happy blaming Fritz of Wales for everything personally in my memoirs. And in my letters, especially for dumping me.
Leopold: I was also happy to blame Joseph, personally. I mean, I also bitched about the low company he kept on the one hand and those bigotted high born ladies on the other, but "Joseph is the worst!" still was my go to explanation in my la familiglia rant about everything he did wrong.
Selena: Which didn't include dumping you, so you don't count.
I don't see why Christian *would* like you."
Me neither. Moltke should have seen this coming. Perhaps did, but doesn't want to say so in the memoirs, because that's not the convention. He'd have to admit to the neglect and abuse first.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Hervey: Not for me. I'm quite happy blaming Fritz of Wales for everything personally in my memoirs. And in my letters, especially for dumping me.
Leopold: I was also happy to blame Joseph, personally. I mean, I also bitched about the low company he kept on the one hand and those bigotted high born ladies on the other, but "Joseph is the worst!" still was my go to explanation in my la familiglia rant about everything he did wrong.
Selena: Which didn't include dumping you, so you don't count.
HAHAHAHAHA!
Moltke should have seen this coming. Perhaps did, but doesn't want to say so in the memoirs, because that's not the convention. He'd have to admit to the neglect and abuse first.
IDK, adults, especially not-super-self-aware adults, often have a very different idea as to how kids ought to feel about things vs how they actually feel...
Hervey: Not for me. I'm quite happy blaming Fritz of Wales for everything personally in my memoirs. And in my letters, especially for dumping me.
Leopold: I was also happy to blame Joseph, personally. I mean, I also bitched about the low company he kept on the one hand and those bigotted high born ladies on the other, but "Joseph is the worst!" still was my go to explanation in my la familiglia rant about everything he did wrong.
Hahaha!
Me neither. Moltke should have seen this coming. Perhaps did, but doesn't want to say so in the memoirs, because that's not the convention. He'd have to admit to the neglect and abuse first.
Moltke admit to something? Never!
As I said to Cahn, I doubt he admitted it to himself consciously. But he might have seen this coming in the sense that he might very well have known he didn't have a bond with Christian and Christian was not a fan. As you say, politically powerful favorites to consecutive monarchs are very rare, and Moltke must have known this.
Although sometimes the favorite survives the transition to the new regime, even if he's not the *favorite* of the new monarch, like Mazarin. I suspect it helped Louis's acceptance of him that he wasn't an emotional favorite of Dad's, just a political colleague, and he was the emotional favorite of *Mom*. And of course the regency: Christian came to power when he was 17, old enough to reign in his own name.
My new Struensee books have arrived. I haven't been able to digitize them yet, because Covid, but one is 650 pages long and very academic-looking, and it has this anecdote about Christian VII and the guy his neglectful father was crazy about:
Especially hated by him was the former favorite of his father: Moltke. He considered him a man only concerned with his own interest. Once, at a court feast, an intoxicated Frederik V is supposed to have promised him Hirschholm Palace as a gift. When Christian learned about this, he hurried to the cabinet library, drew a sketch of the pleasure palace on a piece of paper, and took it to Moltke. "I beseech Your Excellency," he said to the all-powerful minister, "to content yourself with this, because you will never get the real palace, unless you also get the crown." On another occasion, he's supposed to have remarked about Moltke, "Selfishness is one of his four Achilles' heels!"
The citation for these is an 1841 book called "Merkwürdigkeiten aus der Weltgeschichte," which doesn't inspire confidence and which I can't seem to find online, but whether or not this exact anecdote happened, I bet Moltke saw his dismissal coming (but I bet he still blamed the evil advisors).
Also, "unless you also get the crown" to an all-powerful minister...that sounds like a veiled accusation. Barz (our romanticizing biographer of Struensee) refers to "König Moltke" at one point, but I don't know if that was a contemporary phrase (well, an attested one, I bet contemporaries said it privately amongst themselves!) or just Barz being a novelist and playright at heart.
Judging by Wikipedia, Moltke did *not* get Hirschholm Palace: it was originally built by Christian VI for his wife Sophia Magdalena, she lived there until her death in 1770 (so after Frederik V died in 1766), Struensee and Caroline Mathilde lived there until 1771, and after that it fell into disrepair.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
In fairness to anecdote collections, just think of Nicolai, who turned out to be pretty reliable and well sourced. As for the content of the anecdote, yeah, this is my unsurprised face. I mean, from what you've told us, "Moltke cares only about himself" is a massively unfair characterisation, but coming from the kid who seems to have gotten zero help against the abusive teacher from either his father or Moltke, it makes sense. And it's always easier to blame the favourite rather than the parent/spouse.
Also, "unless you also get the crown" to an all-powerful minister...that sounds like a veiled accusation.
Well, yes, but I don't think literally, because there's no way Moltke could have managed that one in a literal fashion. Otoh, if he had married his daughter to Frederik, then I could see conspiratoritorilly minded people believing he did this in preparation of a coup - i.e. wait till the girl has delivered a son, off Frederik (if he hadn't drunken himself to death at that point already), off Christian, become regent for the grandkid, presto. (I mean, even Struensee later wasn't accused of wanting liteerally to become King, but of wanting to make CM regent while continuing to rule as all powerful PM. OUtside of Disney movies, all powerfull ministers who aren't members of the immediate royal family this late in history can't plot to make themselves King. (Boo, hiss at the 1990s Musketeers version which has Richelieu doing this.)
Then again: Christian isn't mentally stable, so who knows, maybe he did mean it literally, disregarding all logic. But if he's still more or less compos mentis, he might have said this to Moltke after the death of his own mother and before Juliana arrived on the scene, thus making it clear Moltke doesn't want to become Grandfather of the next King?
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
In fairness to anecdote collections, just think of Nicolai, who turned out to be pretty reliable and well sourced.
It was less the anecdote collection than the "World History" that I was commenting on. Any time there's a book, anecdote collection or no, that covers "world history," I assume the author has gone for breadth rather than depth, and I bring a lot of skepticism about the accuracy to the table. The exception being if it's a collection of essays by specialists on their respective topics, but this is not that.
Nicolai, in contrast, was researching a single topic in-depth.
Well, yes, but I don't think literally, because there's no way Moltke could have managed that one in a literal fashion.
Oh, I assume Christian meant "i.e., when hell freezes over"! But it still feels like accusing Moltke of, idk, lese-majeste, for Christian to be mentioning it even sarcastically, which is the part I raised an eyebrow at. But maybe I'm overreacting.
Then again: Christian isn't mentally stable, so who knows, maybe he did mean it literally, disregarding all logic.
I mean, he did think his stepmother wanted him dead so her son could inherit, maybe he thought Moltke was conspiring too, in the way you suggest?
I mean, even Struensee later wasn't accused of wanting liteerally to become King
I could have sworn he was, and yes, Barz says he was, but this is Barz, we have to read him with a grain of salt. Here's the relevant passage, though.
The wildest rumors are still rife in Copenhagen. Now they are already creating a very concrete picture that is nourished by a terrible vision, by the memory of the events at the Tsar's court around ten years ago: the assassination of Peter III, his successor an underage child, his wife Catherine, and their favorites and accomplices surrounded, the almighty regent — couldn't that also be applied to Denmark? Long before Struensee's appearance, hadn't the Russian ambassador Filosofov, with a booming lack of tact, announced that this king would also have his Catherine? Could those have been prophetic words?
Here too a weak, perhaps mentally disturbed king, here too a self-confident queen and in the background, as another Potemkin or Orlow, Struensee — his net already seems to have been woven: together with the queen, who is in bondage to him, they will get rid of Christian, then Caroline Mathilde is automatically regent and her lover the first man in the state. They might even get married. The queen has already announced that she has nothing against a commoner as long as she loves him, and thanks to Struensee the relevant laws have already been passed. And Crown Prince Friedrich? The minister is already holding him tightly in his claws, and the shocked story goes around that Struensee lets the little boy starve and freeze. He probably wants to murder him too, so that there is room for himself and his brood. But the king, this noble fool, also gives his wife's favorite a magnificently sparkling carriage. After his murder, Struensee will probably let himself be driven in it to his own coronation.
We'll see what the more academic book says, though. (Or at least I hope we will: my book-buying outstrips my reading by orders of magnitude. I'm an optimist or a book addict, depending on how you want to look at it. ;))
This is also a stretch, but it's worth pointing out that in neighboring Sweden, the monarchy had been made elective just 30-40 years before, during a succession crisis, and the crown went to the German noble who married the late king's sister. Now, said German noble was a ruling landgrave with a respectable lineage, not Some Minor Noble from Mecklenburg who had only been given a title a few years before, so Moltke's odds here are not good, but idk...Christian's paranoid.
he might have said this to Moltke after the death of his own mother and before Juliana arrived on the scene
Unfortunately, the timing doesn't work, as he was only 3 years old at the time, but you do make a good point that *if* this anecdote happened, it either presupposes that Frederik's marriage offer and Moltke's refusal were not common knowledge...or that they were and that's why Christian meant "when hell freezes over." I suspect this wasn't common knowledge, though, as our sole source seems to be Moltke's very allusive mention in his memoirs and the editor's math around the dates of Moltke's daughter's age and marriage.
Btw, the fact that Moltke had to marry his 14-yo off in haste while the marriage negotiations with Juliana Maria were in progress makes me wonder if Moltke was afraid of an elopement. Impetuous, often intoxicated Frederik might decide that Moltke is being too modest and he, Frederik, will do him a favor and surprise him? And I could see the 14-yo girl easily being dazzled by the crown, no matter how many talks her serious-business no-fun father had with her about how this is a Really Really Bad Idea, No Really. (I do wonder if she was even told, or if i it was like, "So! I found you a great husband! The wedding is next month.")
Actually, the dates are even closer than I thought: young Catherine Moltke gets married June 16, according to the editor, and Frederik/Juliana Maria on July 8. Yeah, I wonder if Moltke was worried.
ETA: Because it's not digitized yet, I can only glance through the academic Struensee book, but what I've found so far is a statement that Struensee was accused of planning to pull a Cromwell. Does that sound more like "kill the king and rule as regent" or "kill the king and rule in your own name" to you? (Serious question.)
This claim goes back to a 19th century book on the conspiracy against Caroline Mathilde and Struensee, and it does indeed say "Many saw in him a prospective Cromwell." No further context on what they mean by that.
Ah, glancing at the 19th century conspiracy book, two findings:
1. "König Moltke" is absolutely what his contemporaries called him and not something made up by Barz. (I know this has no bearing on whether people thought he was in danger of making a literal bid for the throne, but I was wondering. And if it's true, and if that remark by Christian is true, it provides some additional context.)
2. According to this book, Christian held a grudge against Moltke because Moltke kept him out of state affairs. Danish law said that the king was competent to rule at age 14, and since Frederik was clearly dying, Christian felt he should have been allowed to play an active part in the government, but Moltke made sure Christian wasn't included or trained at all, and Bernstorff didn't dare oppose his powerful protector.
Now that I believe, as very few powerful rulers do bring themselves to train a successor during their lifetimes. Moltke specifically avoided joining council sessions so he could spend all his time making sure he was one step away from the easy-to-influence Frederik, not arguing with people who might not listen to him. Why on earth would he give up being König Moltke in favor of Christian a moment sooner than he had to?
So yeah, I see even more grounds for resentment and claims of selfishness here. (Should a mentally ill 14-year-old be allowed to rule a country, well, Moltke, I might actually be on your side here, but I see how it created bad blood, even beyond the abusive tutor situation.)
And of course the publication only made that mother/daughter relationship come across neurotic and co-dependent in reviewer's minds. What I'm getting at: I bet Moltke included all those apology letters to show what a great guy Frederik was and how affectionate and great their relationship
You know, I am reminded of something cahn was saying in email last month, that if you're going out of your way to demonstrate just *how* close you are to someone and *how* good your relationship is, it's probably intense and dysfunctional with lots of ups and downs. Her theory is that people with functional relationships take those relationships much more for granted and are likely to only casually mention doing something nice with the other person from time to time, but not go on about how great the relationship is to all and sundry.
Moltke and Aurelia Plath strike me as excellent supporting evidence for this theory.
"Neurotic and codependent": I have seen in numerous places the Frederik/Moltke relationship described as "lifelong relationship of total dependence" or "mutually dependent" and the like. Around the time I read, "Go talk to my wife about her hernia because I can't," I was like, "Wow, it's really not just that he doesn't want to do the boring parts of government."
Moltke: "Yes, I know I'm the only one you trust to pick out your next wife, but then I would have to not constantly be with you, and everyone knows I don't do that!"
Fredersdorf: "Wow, at least I got to go to Paris, not to mention all the other separations."
Moltke: "At least my monarch wanted me to have a wife and family!"
Mildred: "Did you hear me the first time? Therapy for EVERYONE!"
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Am also reminded of the publication of Sylvia Plath's letters to her mother, which her mother Aurelia explicitly chose to prove that everything was fine between her and Sylvia, and Sylvia wasn't the vicious ingrate from the poems and "The Bell Jar" who offers a satiric negative mother portrait for all the world to read, Sylvia was a wonderful loving daughter who kept telling her mother how wonderful Aurelia was. And of course the publication only made that mother/daughter relationship come across neurotic and co-dependent in reviewer's minds.
Ohhhh I have not actually seen those letters, that sounds fascinating. But also, in my experience, people keep telling their mothers how wonderful they are when the mother demands that!
What I'm getting at: I bet Moltke included all those apology letters to show what a great guy Frederik was and how affectionate and great their relationship with the same mindset of Aurelia Plath, that the lashing-out King wasn't the "real" Frederik... little realizing that readers might wonder what Frederik is apologizing for, etc.
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Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
*ponders*
You know, there are reasons I react more positively there, but you're right, I totally awww at this, so I should just go with it here too.
AWWW!
ETA: the untranslatable sentence - makes no sense in this form
I am always so pleased and relieved when the things I can't figure out don't make sense to you either! I was staring at this sentence going, "I know I often don't know *exactly* what a German sentence is saying and I have to make my best guess, but it's been a long time since I was used to being totally stumped!"
If it's a transcription error for "verlangt", it's not mine: the whole text is in a nice, Mildred-friendly Roman font (if a little faded sometimes), and that's a very clear 'ng'.
But the editor, whose Danish I put into Google translate yesterday, says he struggled a bit with Frederik's letters:
It seemed to me that the King's letters, even where the meaning was a little vague to grasp, required a diplomatically precise presentation, and we know that crowned heads have always had a certain Licentia regia, as far as grammar and letters are concerned.
Fritz: Damn right!
So yeah, it could be "verlasst." I could see where that would be weird in modern German but okay in Rokoko. Thank you for your help! And mostly for your confirmation that my German isn't massively worse than I thought it was.
Now from the sound of your write up, I wouldn't exclude the assumption that some of them are for mishavior not directed at Moltke, but yes, looks like the majority of apologies are for something he said to Moltke himself
Yeah, if you do a close reading with the material I haven't provided you, here's what's driving my interpretation:
- "Betrüben" could go either way: Moltke could easily be upset at the way Frederik is behaving and/or treating other people (like his wife).
- Frederik frequently describes his offenses as his thoughtless/mad/foolhardy "Reden." Now, he could apologize to Moltke for how he talked to other people in front of Moltke or in a way that got back to Moltke, but if another author tried to claim that it was always this, I would call them out for special pleading.
- Then there are occasional places where Frederik says he "beleidigt" or "übel begegnet" Moltke or the like, which I have a hard time interpreting as anything other than abuse aimed directly at Moltke.
- At least once his repentant promise is to change his behavior and "behave as a friend toward Moltke" in future.
- That "you fill in the fluff" where I didn't repeat every line of him telling Moltke he loves him...is a little unfair to you, the reader, because there are two different kinds of "I love you" in these letters. There's "I'm telling you I love you ten times per letter because that's what I do," and then there's "I'm reassuring you that I still love you." The second *could* in theory always be "I know I keep drinking and partying even though I know your advice is good and I keep promising to follow it, and you keep passive-aggressively saying I wouldn't do this if I really loved you," but, in combination with all the other evidence? I can't take most of it as anything other than "I know I said horrible things to you but I didn't mean it, I still love you, let me tell you five more times before closing this letter how much I love you, because I know what I said last night was not really supporting evidence."
it's just as likely that genuine attachment was as big or larger a factor
I am 100% convinced that these two had a deep and complex intertwined relationship with a *lot* of differing feelings, including very intense love and closeness (probably too much in some cases, and I don't mean sexually), and also repressed resentment (and when Frederik is drunk not so repressed resentment on his side). There is no part of me that thinks Moltke was just in it for the power.
But did Frederik the emotionally damaged sometimes wonder, subconsciously, if Moltke might be in it just for the power? Did that trigger some of those outbursts? I wonder.
But if the parent figure isn't the actual parent but lower on the social scale than the royal child, then sometimes even before the child is grown up you have the combination of more social power on the child's side and the emotional power that comes with being loved as a child. I would be very surprised if abuse therefore didn't happen in the other direction under these conditions more than once.
THIS.
And I think that power differential on both sides continued to exist on both sides into adulthood, not just in Frederik's childhood. De jure, Frederik had all the power, and Moltke had to be careful and hold his tongue, but de facto...there's both the emotional parent-child relationship and the pragmatic dependence in the other direction working against Frederik even as an adult. (And also in his favor, but that's what I mean by complex.)
And speaking of this parent-child relationship, I have a headcanon. Now, I know that Frederik opening a ball once with Moltke's wife is meaningless courtly behavior, and in the very same sentence Oettinger says Louisa opens the same ball with the French envoy, and I'm definitely not reading anything deep and Freudian into that! And if you wanted to read methodologically unsound ulterior motives into dancing with Moltke's wife, you could just as easily go the opposite direction and accuse him of being sleazy and having designs on his best friend's wife.
BUT. given that Frederik keeps calling Moltke his father and himself Moltke's son, he wants to marry his daughter, and those letters where he calls himself a father and a mother to Moltke's kids...I have this headcanon that Frederik desperately wants to belong to Moltke's family.
I don't know if this means that Frederik knew the Moltkes reasonably well and actually got along with all or most of them, or if it was more the abstract *idea* of belonging to his favorite person's family that satisfied this deep emotional need, but I keep getting a "please let me be one of you!" vibe. And given his alienation from both his parents, it makes total sense.
I will say this: what's really noticeable to me, a reader of Fritz's letters, is how often Frederik includes Moltke's family in the letters on his own initiative. I keep seeing "say hi to your wife for me" and "I'm devoted to you and your whole family" and of course "I want to be there for your kids even though you haven't asked me to." It's not in all the letters, or even a majority, but enough that it was really jarring to me after the Fritz experience.
Because Fritz does not generally initiate gestures of affection toward people's family. We were completely in the dark as to whether Suhm even took his kids to St. Petersburg, that's how little he talks about them to Fritz! [ETA: I eventually decided that he did, but the evidence is a "blink and you miss" it moment.] Only when Suhm is dying/believes he's dying does he bring them up, and of course Fritz takes on financial responsibility for them, but there's no deep emotional need to be included in someone else's family for him. If he's close to both parties, maybe, like Colonel and Madame Camas, he might mention the other person's spouse/family, but even without having done more than browse those letters, it doesn't strike me as anything like what Frederik is doing.
Fritz, of course, had a mother he loved, and a sister, and at least close and intense, if contentious, relationships with his numerous siblings. Frederik had two parents who were apparently cold to him, and one sister who may or may not have had a real relationship with him, it hasn't come up in my reading. But Moltke has (eventually) 22 kids!
13 with the first wife, then 9, apparently. Neither wife had to play Agnes of Waiblingen, fortunately! (Though 13 and 9 are still a lot!)
Anyway, I can see Frederik wanting to belong not just to Moltke (he does say "I belong to you"), but to his large surrogate family. And even though I'm sure he opened balls with a lot of people, I like to imagine him getting a "Yes! I am one of you!" feeling when its his turn to dance with Mrs./Countess Moltke. ;)
(I also imagine him feeling deeply wounded by the 1752 rejection, and I imagine Moltke thinking, "Look, I'm sorry I have to hurt you, but there are 0 ways this goes well and an almost unlimited number of ways it goes badly. If our entire relationship is based around me being the responsible adult so you don't have to, then I'm going to have to make the responsible adult decision here." And just like with Anna Maria Franziska, I am with him on this.)
he wasn't personally rude and/or verbally cruel, and certainly not physically so according to what we know.
Agreed. Though I'm amusedly thinking of Horowksi's anecdote where Louis asked if it wasn't unpleasant for everyone else to have to walk in the rain bare-headed when they were with him. ;)
Anyway, it's extremely mild as such things go! I doubt Frederik would have written a profusely apologetic letter over something like that. ;)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Speaking of 1752, look at the dates for the apology letters:
1744: 1 letter
1749: 1 letter
1752: 5 letters
1753: 1 letter
1755: 2 letters
1756: 1 letter
1759: 1 letter
1760: 1 letter
Now, as I keep saying, that is a small, non-representative sample, and there are all those undated letters, but between the dead wife and unborn baby, the rejection by the Moltke family, and the pressure into an unwanted marriage...I would not be surprised if 1752 was an especially bad year to be Frederik or to be around Frederik. And that maybe that played a role in the marriage with Juliana not working out so well.
ETA: Honestly, even if this sample is biased by selection by Moltke, maybe Moltke remembered it as an especially bad year for their relationship.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
But did Frederik the emotionally damaged sometimes wonder, subconsciously, if Moltke might be in it just for the power? Did that trigger some of those outbursts? I wonder.
I bet he did. That's what emotionally damaged monarchs do. Especially those with little to no self esteem due to it having been consistently attacked/destroyed in their childhood by their parents/teachers.
I will say this: what's really noticeable to me, a reader of Fritz's letters, is how often Frederik includes Moltke's family in the letters on his own initiative. I keep seeing "say hi to your wife for me" and "I'm devoted to you and your whole family" and of course "I want to be there for your kids even though you haven't asked me to." It's not in all the letters, or even a majority, but enough that it was really jarring to me after the Fritz experience.
That is a very interesting compare and contrast, and it does speak of the very different emotional needs these two have. It makes sense that Frederik the Dane doesn't just want to be Moltke's priority, he wants to belong to Moltke's family, whereas Fritz wants to be his favourite people's priority and preferably not be reminded of them having other priorities. Mind you, Fritz can fake it. I would like to remind everyone of the difference between King Fritz and Crown Prince Fritz in the Voltaire letters vis a vis Émilie, again. As long as he's still Crown Prince, he does mention her and sends regards and even corresponds with her himself. As soon as he's King, it's "it's my friend Voltaire whom I want to have here, not the Marquise, no matter how divine she is", while ironically he can't stop himself from bringing her up as competition even when doesn't have to (such as in the poems he writes supposedly for Ulrike to Voltaire), it's very clear that's how he sees her, competition.
(He does mention Wilhelmine's husband in the letters to her, but usually specifically because she asked for his advice re: should BayreuthFriedrich do this or that, or promising her he'll keep an eye on him and protect him should BayreuthFriedrich join everyone at Philippsburg. But I don't recall casual "so, how's your husband?" or "remind me to your husband!", and there's a decided non-interest in Wilhelmine's daughter, too, unless she brings her up first (as in young Friederike Sophie's marriage troubles). To be fair, as we noted Wilhelmine never asks about Fredersdorf, either.)
Fritz, of course, had a mother he loved, and a sister, and at least close and intense, if contentious, relationships with his numerous siblings. Frederik had two parents who were apparently cold to him, and one sister who may or may not have had a real relationship with him, it hasn't come up in my reading.
Indeed. Basically, Frederik has one thing in common with Harry Potter, which is Moltkes = Weasleys and the overwhelming wish to belong to this family beyond the friendship to one particular member, while Fritz already has all the family he wants or needs, dysfunctional or not.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Wow, yes, that sounds familiar.
What I'm getting at: I bet Moltke included all those apology letters to show what a great guy Frederik was and how affectionate and great their relationship with the same mindset of Aurelia Plath, that the lashing-out King wasn't the "real" Frederik...
Yep, I agree. Especially if it *was* mostly drunk Frederik doing this, it would have been very easy (and a very common thing to do) to compartmentalize "sober, affectionate Frederik" as the "real" Frederik.
little realizing that readers might wonder what Frederik is apologizing for, etc.
Yeah, and I mean, it worked on a lot of people! "Look how loving he is! Look how much he looks up to Moltke, who is his moral compass!" Only some of us read those and went, "...Are you okay, Moltke? Do you need help? Is he hitting you?"
(Everyone here needs help. The repeated "it won't happen again," which I read as 100% sincere, just underlined his total lack of control or any idea what to do about his problems. Alas, willpower does not fix psychological issues any more than good intentions do, and no root causes actually got addressed here with all the praying and repenting and vowing.)
I bet he did. That's what emotionally damaged monarchs do. Especially those with little to no self esteem due to it having been consistently attacked/destroyed in their childhood by their parents/teachers.
Exactly what I'm thinking.
whereas Fritz wants to be his favourite people's priority and preferably not be reminded of them having other priorities.
Yep, that's our Fritz, someone wrote a whole fic about Fredersdorf's need for drastic time-loop measures just to get permission to marry!
but usually specifically because she asked for his advice re: should BayreuthFriedrich do this or that, or promising her he'll keep an eye on him and protect him should BayreuthFriedrich join everyone at Philippsburg. But I don't recall casual "so, how's your husband?" or "remind me to your husband!", and there's a decided non-interest in Wilhelmine's daughter, too, unless she brings her up first
Yep, that's why I was specifying Frederik did this on his own initiative. And yeah, Fritz could totally fake it, as you remind me, but that's not what's going on here either, imo.
Mind you, I have this horrible suspicion, after reading the letters, that some of the protesting that he is devoted to Moltke's family too may be because he has given some counterevidence the day before. I would not be surprised to learn that there was a "Well I don't want to marry your stupid daughter anyway!" (or worse) outburst. But I would need to do a much closer reading to see if maybe I'm conflating the apologetic tone with the family mentions in an unfounded way. My German is still not instantaneous and requires some focus, and 18th century spelling is interesting, so mistakes happen.
To be fair, as we noted Wilhelmine never asks about Fredersdorf, either.
Ahahaha, Wilhelmine is the epitome of needing to be top priority, and she also had "all the family she wants or needs, dysfunctional or not."
Basically, Frederik has one thing in common with Harry Potter, which is Moltkes = Weasleys and the overwhelming wish to belong to this family beyond the friendship to one particular member
Ha! That's a great analogy. The one I had been thinking of is a much more obscure novelization of the Nibelungenlied/Volsunga saga by Diana Paxson, where Sigfrid likes Gudrun and all, but what *really* drives him is wanting to be part of her family. When he marries her, he gets brothers!!
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Dated letters:
1. Since your letter mentioned your wife was happily delivered, my congratulations.
Mildred note: Maybe this is reading too much in, but he doesn't just say "congrats on the child," he actually mentions the wife as a person. And though he says "I hope to see you again so I can tell you orally how happy I am for you," he doesn't seem to question why he's not Moltke's top priority today.
2. I'm glad to hear you've safely arrived in Moen. My compliments and best to your wife, and please recommend me in constant favor and goodwill.
5. I want to prove my love to you, and therefore I hereby promise in writing to my very dearest Moltke that he and his family can have Svanholm for all time, cost what it may.
Mildred note: This is from the crown prince days.
9. Sorry I've been so sad today. Tomorrow, God willing, you will see a good and friendly face, and I will take pleasure in proving to you how much love and respect I have, not just for you, but for your whole family. Greet your dear wife many times.
Mildred: This is the one right after Frederik's wife dies.
11. I'm sorry, I won't do it again, be assured that until death I will love and care for you and your whole family as much as for myself.
12. I'm sorry you didn't sleep well and were upset, forgive me, I won't do it again, God bless the best friend I have in the entire world, until my end and my last sigh I will live and die your sincere friend and faithful son, and will remain until my end a protector, carer, and father to your whole family.
13. I'm sorry, I have a very hot head, may God bestow on you and your whole family all the blessings and benevolence that is spoken of in the Holy Scriptures.
18. The cute "Do I have to challenge you to a duel to see you? I miss you!" one, culminating in "And I will remain until my grave your faithful friend and father for all your children."
Mildred note: Moltke's first wife is still alive at this point, and Frederik is already promising to be a father to the kids. What will be different when the wife dies is that he'll also promise to be a mother!
20. I'm really sorry, please take this keepsake as a sign of the true and unchanging love and respect that I have for you and your whole family.
21. Love you forever, have some breakfast I'm sending over, greet your wife for me, and both of you be assured that I will never, as long as I live, cease to love you sincerely and respect you and to take care of the whole family like a father and do whatever an honest Frederik can do.
22. I know I have a hot head, but my heart always loves you. God keep you and bless you and your whole family.
24. I remain until death your and your family's sincere friend.
26. I am drinking to your health, and sending you a glass of the same "medicine" with a request that you take it for my health or even that of your wife, whom I greet many times. God bless you and your whole dear family.
Mildred note: Yeah, this has to be wine, re my "medicine or wine?" question in the first write-up.
27. The "satanic behavior" outlier letter.
Mildred note: This one has *no* mention of the family, for whatever that's worth. At least it doesn't sound like he offended *them*.
28. Happy birthday, God bless you and keep you and your dear-to-my-heart family.
29. I hope to see you well and sound tomorrow. God bless and keep you; greet your dear wife many times for me.
30. Have a ring as a token of how sorry I am for causing you distress yesterday through my hot head. I am until your faithful friend and a father to your whole family.
31. New Year's gifts and best wishes exchange. Thank your dear wife many times for the gifts too, and be assured that I am yours and your family's sincerely faithful friend now and for all time.
32. So sorry, don't be sad, I'll make your oldest son marshal today! Greet many times the kids and "Kattjen", and do believe that until death I am and will remain a faithful friend and father to you and yours.
Mildred note: obviously the one where Moltke's wife has just died.
33. [Another condolence letter received on the same day as the previous.] May God preserve you as a comfort to your children and also to me. I will faithfully take care of your dear children as a father and a mother.
34. I'm sending your son the chamberlain key because it's the only thing I can think of to make you feel better right now. I remain until my grave a sincerely faithful friend and father to you and yours.
35. Please forgive me for upsetting you. P.S. I have many greetings from Fieke Raaben.
Mildred note: Sophie Raben is the woman Moltke will marry in a couple of months.
Undated letters:
10. Don't be so upset, I love you, I will try all my life to follow your admonishments, you won't regret it. I will sincerely love your and yours until death.
11. I love you SO much. P.S. I beg you again for forgiveness, I'm sorry for upsetting you, I still belong to you. P.P.S. Greet your dear wife many times for me.
13. I'm glad you're feeling better. God bless you and keep you and your dear wife and children, and please greet all of them for me.
15. Business related stuff. Please greet your dear wife and kids many times for me.
18. I'm really sorry I upset you yesterday so much that you got sick, please forgive me, it will never happen again in my life. God bless you and keep you and also your dear family.
22. I beg your forgiveness for all the ways in which I've offended you. Please rest assured it was not out of malice nor happened with my will and knowledge. You know what a hot head I have, but you can totally trust that I'll never upset you again. God bless and keep you and your dear wife happy and healthy for a million years, as a comfort for your dear children and as a heartfelt joy for me and my children.
Mildred note: Hey, his own kids get a mention for once!
25. More hunting today? God bless and keep you and your dear-to-my-heart family, and always do more good for you-all than I can say. I will never cease to love you and yours sincerely and do good for you in every way and shape until my grave.
28. Congratulations on the happy day. I wish with all my soul that the almighty, gracious God will let you and your dear wife live happy and healthy together and see your children and children's children, and I will never abandon yours. Until my grave I am a very sincerely faithful friend to you and your whole family.
29. I hope you slept well, I'm sending you some breakfast with good thoughts for your health, greet your dear wife many times for me.
Mildred note: Looks like I misnumbered this as 30 in the other list.
Notes:
1. I am reminded that G1 was a much better father to his illegitimate kids than to his legitimate ones. That makes me more willing to give into my "aww". Though the dynamic with Moltke remains dysfunctional and abusive, the one does not cancel out the other, in either direction. People are complicated!
2. Can you imagine Fritz writing these letters? I cannot.
3. My fears that Frederik is apologizing for offending the family *seem* to be unfounded after a close reading, though it's not impossible.
4. For the ones where he may be apologizing for the escapades, and even the ones where he's not but he's heaping up expressions of love beyond what I've seen in "normal" over-the-top 18th century letters, I do wonder if Moltke's "admonishments" ever included "If you really love me, you'll get your act together." The amount of over-the-top-ness could be within normal human variation and just due to Frederik's personality, and I may be unfairly maligning Moltke, but so many people take that kind of passive-aggressive approach that I wonder. Especially as I could see it being a way of chastising an out-of-control monarch without alienating him (but probably feeding into a dysfunctional dynamic contributing to more outbursts in the long-term).
Also, I don't know if this is coming across, but the summaries are really not conveying the over-the-topness. I had read in Wikipedia/biographical dictionaries that these letters are startling, and I admit I rolled my eyes and went, "Guys, it's the 18th century, how startling can they be? You clearly haven't read anyone else's letters." Then I, a doubting Thomas, actually read the letters, and okay, yeah.
The difference between this collection and what I've seen the 18th century as a whole is not qualitative, it's quantitative. Frederik says the same over-the-top things any 18th century letter-writer does, but he says them like 20 times and strings all the adjectives and clauses together as if he can convince by word count alone. It's all the more startling given the ratio to actual content.
Again, these are a selection that was chosen to be light on actual content (actual content got destroyed) and high on affection (that's why Moltke wanted to share them), but given that these are selected to be the most high-octane desperately loving ones, they do feel above average to me, someone who hasn't read as much as Selena but has read somewhat.
5. Note, these are *not* all the letters where Frederik refers to Moltke as his father or himself as Moltke's son. I can count those ones if you're interested. ;)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
That is indeed notable (and very unFritzian). Incidentally, not really comparable in terms of personalities or power, but in the Goethe/Schiller letters, it's noticable that Goethe usually sends his regards to Mrs. Schiller, and they keep informing each other about newly arrived (and sadly, died) babies and the kids' states of health, but not once does Schiller mention Christiane, Goethe's life partner and later spouse, even after having stayed at Goethe's for two weeks where she would have been the his hostess. This is not due to raging jealousy, as slashy and Goethe and Schiller are, but to social snobbery, since Christiane much of the time of the Goethe/Schiller friendship is Christiane Vulpius, common-law spouse, and Goethe only marries her officially after the Napoleonic invasion has started. Anyway, back to Frederik, I agree that he seems to see the family, especially Mrs. Moltke, as people, not just social adjuncts, and wants to belong to that family. Like I said, they are his Weasleys!
"Kattjen"--does that look like "cats" or a nickname to you, or what?
Not withstanding the existence of the word "Kätzchen" I'm betting on it being a nickname for a Catherine, both due to "-jen" ending, which sounds like something Plattdeutsch (Northest German dialect) and as far as I osmosed Danish do to names), and to the possibility of misspelling "Käthchen" - i.e. "Kate".
Speaking of North German nicknames, I see with second Mrs. Moltke we have another case of a Sophie being nicknamed Fieke.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
The unbalanced alcoholic gets one thing right!
since Christiane much of the time of the Goethe/Schiller friendship is Christiane Vulpius, common-law spouse
Right, yes, she's the artificial flower-maker? *checks* Yes, she is!
Anyway, back to Frederik, I agree that he seems to see the family, especially Mrs. Moltke, as people, not just social adjuncts, and wants to belong to that family. Like I said, they are his Weasleys!
That is such a great analogy. :D
Not withstanding the existence of the word "Kätzchen" I'm betting on it being a nickname for a Catherine, both due to "-jen" ending, which sounds like something Plattdeutsch (Northest German dialect) and as far as I osmosed Danish do to names), and to the possibility of misspelling "Käthchen" - i.e. "Kate".
Thanks! I didn't recognize it from modern standard German and figured it could be a North German or 18th century misspelling of either.
Okay, then, now I wonder who this Kattjen is? A sister? An in-law? The oldest daughter Catherine (married off at 14 to avoid marrying Frederik), now married with kids and thus possibly not included under "Kinder"?
Speaking of the kids, I observed yesterday that one of the sons was born in 1773, when Moltke was 62 and his second wife was 41! I mean, my mother also had her last child at 41, but not in the 18th century and after 8 other kids.
Speaking of North German nicknames, I see with second Mrs. Moltke we have another case of a Sophie being nicknamed Fieke.
I saw that! So we have SD, Sophie Charlotte ("Figuelotte"), and Sophie von Moltke. Am I missing any?
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Quite. And even in the 18th century, there were methods to have sex that didn't involve the risk of procreation. Now, MT was nearly that old when she had her last pair of kids (Marie Antoinette in 1755, Max the future Cologne guy in 1756, and MT was born in 1717), number 15 and 16 respectively, but MT was a Catholic monarch with an iron constitution and presumably was the one to make the decision of risking pregnancy. One wonders why it didn't occur to Moltke to try, well, alternate sex methods rather than risking his wife's life at this point. My instinctive guess is that not just family life but marital life, including sex, was his time away from Frederik and he felt he needed the relief in order to be otherwise constantly available, and wasn't the type ot cheat on his wife.
I saw that! So we have SD, Sophie Charlotte ("Figuelotte"), and Sophie von Moltke. Am I missing any?
Not in canon, but in that novel where brothers Thomas and Heinrich Mann collaborate on a Fritz and Heinrich novel which manages to squander this great premise after a promising beginning, Heinrich does think of his childhood bff and current Empress of Russia as "Fieke" at one point when he wonders how she's doing.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
I had more or less the same thought: that like you suspect Caroline Marie Daum was for Fredersdorf during the Fritz/Voltaire explosion, Moltke's wives (and children?) were his haven during his turbulent relationship with Frederik. I keep saying it: Moltke was the only one who thought marriage would solve all of Frederik's problems in 1752, and unlike in 1743, he had a ton of evidence to the contrary, so I take that as reason to believe marriage made *him* feel better. Was Juliana Maria really such a political catch that the marriage couldn't have waited 2 years? By then, Augusta might have been available!
Hmm, actually, maybe the thinking wasn't "Marriage will fix Frederik's drinking and orgies" as everyone keeps saying it was, maybe it was "New wife may be someone I can delegate some emotional availability for Frederik to, so I *don't* have to be available 24/7 and I don't burn out." Huh, that's the first fully rational explanation for pushing a marriage neither Frederik nor the Danish people wanted to happen this soon. I suppose maybe getting a spare to go with the heir, as there was only one (unstable) son at that point and Frederik was clearly drinking himself to death.
Anyway, I still think given Moltke's own life choices: 7-year engagemnt starting at age 18, immediate remarriage, 22 kids going into his 60s, and married until his death, that marriage was his happy place.
Now, I note that 1773 is 7 years after Frederik's death in January 1766, and that there were multiple kids born after Frederik died, but 1) once something is working for you, you tend to hang onto it, 2) mental health issues tend not to occur in isolation, so if Moltke's got that dysfunctional relationship with Frederik for so long, he may have other issues either as cause, effect, or both, and those may still be in play in 1773.
I did independently come to the same conclusion as you that Moltke probably wasn't the type to cheat on his wife, although of course that remains to be seen. (Mind you, with 22 kids plus the rest of his schedule, he would have had to have been taking scheduling tips from Algarotti to fit a mistress or prostitutes in!)
Actually, did Algarotti go to Copenhagen? No, I don't think he did. Well, you weren't missing anything, Algarotti, in either reign.
Thinking about it, it makes sense: 1746 is when Frederik came to power, 1730s is when Algarotti is roaming. Until 1746, "no fun allowed!" Christian VI was in charge, so Copenhagen would not have been the place to look for a job if you were an Algarotti. Either at a personal or a professional level. ;)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Could be, and I don't see it as mutually exclusive with "it works for me, so of course it will work for him!"
Mind you, there's one more thing we haven't considered, true for both Moltke and Frederik in different ways. As the unofficial PM, you don't need a wife just for your personal happiness and for the sex. Sure, you're a rich noble who can afford the staff to take care of your kids, but you still have a great representative household and society life to manage, which you really don't have the time for, and that is what the wife of a grand political noble does.
With Frederik, of an uncertain temper, alcolism and emotional instability, I very much doubt he was up to much of the representative side of being a monarch. (Hanging out in brothels does not count.) I mean, our Fritz essentially handed over conventional court life to EC on the one hand and his younger brothers on the other with attending the occasional ball during carnival season. His lengthy meals and concerts were only with his chosen small circle, but that didn't make the court life and the need for aristocratic gladhandling and hospital openings etc. go away, it just meant Fritz wasn't the one to do it. And there, btw, you have another reason why he doesn't get divorced from EC in 1740 immediately when he can do it. (Though I still agree that an even better reason was the fact if he did it, he'd have been pressured to remarry as at that point everyone else's expectations still must have been that he'd continue the dynasty personally, even if his own expectations were already AW would do it for him.) He needed her to hold court and do some of the representing, even if at that point SD was still there to happily hold court and represent.
Which brings me back to the Danes: if Frederik doesn't remarry immediately - is his sister still around and available to hold court for him? Or his mother? Because if not, you have another reason why Moltke was pressing for remarriage. (I bet no one had complaints about Juliana Maria's ability to represent, btw.)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Detour about royals and public eating (and touching)
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Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Gosh, I'm even more annoyed about this now than when you first brought it up. It seems like such a GREAT premise!
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Mildred note: Hey, his own kids get a mention for once!
I meant to add that Moltke was *not* a heartfelt joy for Frederik's children, or at least not for the one we hear from, Christian VII. A quote from Christian that I've encountered in several different places is "Storch vom unten, Fuchs vom oben" = "stork from below, fox from above." In other words, Moltke was tall, lanky, and clever/sneaky. At least one historian (I forget which) commented: Well, Christian wasn't wrong.
That's more evidence, btw, that Moltke was not in it just for the power but for his intense relationship with Frederik: he did not chase the rising sun, but remained with Frederik until the very end, covering for him and being emotionally available. Just four years later [ETA: I forgot, this happened twice: once only about 4 *months* later, then again about 4 years later], he got kicked out without a pension and never held power again.
By the way, this is what Holm has to say about the embezzlement accusations:
If you look at what Moltke had to thank the king for, then it is a fact that the latter presented him with the Bregentwood estate, that he increased this with Dalby Church and gave him the right to call to a couple of nearby churches as well as some other favors as an estate owner; but that is also all, and it was absolutely no more than what the despotic kings had regularly given to men who were close to them; Moltke had to buy Thurebyholm, which had previously been state property, at a price fixed by the Interest Chamber, which corresponded to what was usually paid for such property. The annual salary Moltke earned as High Court Marshal was 4000 Rigsdaler and 1117 Rdl. in Remuneration for the Marshal's Deputy, a salary that also has nothing special about it, and you cannot see from the Accounts of the Private Fund that he has received gifts of money, like the fairly common ones the king wanted to help. No one has been able to prove that he has accepted kickbacks and gifts. It is probably certain that a Gehejmeraad v. Støcken bequeathed him the estate of Gammelgaard on Lolland, and it is likely that this was recompense for a service he had done him. But we don't know anything more about that. From foreign courtiers he received presents on certain occasions; but it happened quite publicly, as was common custom in those days; such corresponded to the Order decorations of our time. Nothing of all this can put any stain on his name. When he built his mansion at Amalienborg, the king presented him with over 2 million Flensburg bricks (to a value of 13,517 Rd.); but Moltke also caused, or at least consented, that 330,936 bricks were delivered to him, which should actually have been used for the Frederikskirken, as he thereby avoided paying the price that the supplier in question was supposed to have for delivering them to the Church; he got them cheaper that way. This was indefensible and slippery, and certainly unworthy of Moltke; but it was also in reality a big trifle, and it therefore in no way overturns the general impression that one has that he did not abuse his position to enrich himself. How he took his personal position to the king, we shall soon see, and as far as his behavior is concerned, there is not a single trait preserved that testifies to a bad character, that he was crooked or sought to harm others.
If I ever get the 2010 monograph, I'll be curious if they agree.
(No, I have not forgotten that I owe our Fredersdorf a defense! Prep work is in progress, but it will probably be some months before proper work starts.)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
This doesn't surprise me, either. The Duke of Buckingham who was the favourite of both James I (and VI) and of his son Charles I. is still the only example I can think of where a very powerful royal favourite managed to be one for a father and son duo of successive monarchs, and it wouldn't have worked if good old Steynie hadn't befriended young Charles long before his father's death. Between ruling the country and being emotionally available to one messed up monarch 24/7, Moltke must have had his plate more than full. Another unstable prince to care for would have been just too much. And most neglected children aren't going to love the guy their neglectful father was crazy about.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
*And* the Academy of Arts, *and* the Asiatic Company--he reminds me of Fredersdorf! A finger in every pie.
I think what saved him was that he wasn't a micromanager or autocrat, that he was willing to let the committees of other nobles do most of the work, and his job was to review their write-ups and guide Frederik in making a decision. Still a lot of work! But not Fritzian levels. That's also, as you and various authors have noted, partly how he managed to hang onto his position: he was a good team player.
Also, re the 24/7 thing, the good news is that after more research, I've come to the tentative conclusion that at least during most of Frederik's reign, Moltke lived with his (Weasley) family and only joined Frederik at the palace in the morning, after breakfast. During the crown prince days, he slept in the same room or next door to Frederik, and when Frederik was dying, he slept in the same room, but other than that, I suspect he had some alone time/family time. Which might explain why he lasted so long (also relevant to your other comment, which I'll reply to).
This also makes me think that a lot of the apology letters might be pre-emptive, when Frederik woke up realizing what he'd done and frantically apologizing in writing *before* he got the silent treatment. Though I still have some memories of at least a few being "Please talk to me!", I would need to do a closer reading to see if that holds up.
And most neglected children aren't going to love the guy their neglectful father was crazy about.
Ding ding ding! Because I got to the part in Moltke's memoirs yesterday where he talks about his dismissal, and you get one guess who he blames.
...Dun dun dun...
The evil advisors!
And I was like, "Moltke, I like you well enough from this very safe distance, but I know what Christian's childhood was like. His father ignored him, his governor abused him, and you did nothing about either of these things. In fact, you may even have been responsible for appointing the governor, I have no idea. But Holm or Oettinger said that the governor said that he had never once spoken to Frederik, so...I don't see why Christian *would* like you."
Moltke: But dying Frederik specifically told Christian to be especially nice to me, because I had served him faithfully and well since he was 7!
Me: Frederik...the neglectful and probably abusive father? Look, I respect that you didn't drop Frederik like a hot potato as soon as it became clear he was dying, but there's only so much you can expect from the abused child who got no attention from either of you!
Another unstable prince to care for would have been just too much.
Absolutely, and there's no guarantee that he would have clicked or been successful with the other unstable prince, even if he'd been willing to give it his best effort. Frederik and Christian seem to have had very different mental health issues and very different personalities.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Of course he does. It's really the go to explanation through the centuries.
Hervey: Not for me. I'm quite happy blaming Fritz of Wales for everything personally in my memoirs. And in my letters, especially for dumping me.
Leopold: I was also happy to blame Joseph, personally. I mean, I also bitched about the low company he kept on the one hand and those bigotted high born ladies on the other, but "Joseph is the worst!" still was my go to explanation in my la familiglia rant about everything he did wrong.
Selena: Which didn't include dumping you, so you don't count.
I don't see why Christian *would* like you."
Me neither. Moltke should have seen this coming. Perhaps did, but doesn't want to say so in the memoirs, because that's not the convention. He'd have to admit to the neglect and abuse first.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Hervey: Not for me. I'm quite happy blaming Fritz of Wales for everything personally in my memoirs. And in my letters, especially for dumping me.
Leopold: I was also happy to blame Joseph, personally. I mean, I also bitched about the low company he kept on the one hand and those bigotted high born ladies on the other, but "Joseph is the worst!" still was my go to explanation in my la familiglia rant about everything he did wrong.
Selena: Which didn't include dumping you, so you don't count.
HAHAHAHAHA!
Moltke should have seen this coming. Perhaps did, but doesn't want to say so in the memoirs, because that's not the convention. He'd have to admit to the neglect and abuse first.
IDK, adults, especially not-super-self-aware adults, often have a very different idea as to how kids ought to feel about things vs how they actually feel...
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Leopold: I was also happy to blame Joseph, personally. I mean, I also bitched about the low company he kept on the one hand and those bigotted high born ladies on the other, but "Joseph is the worst!" still was my go to explanation in my la familiglia rant about everything he did wrong.
Hahaha!
Me neither. Moltke should have seen this coming. Perhaps did, but doesn't want to say so in the memoirs, because that's not the convention. He'd have to admit to the neglect and abuse first.
Moltke admit to something? Never!
As I said to Cahn, I doubt he admitted it to himself consciously. But he might have seen this coming in the sense that he might very well have known he didn't have a bond with Christian and Christian was not a fan. As you say, politically powerful favorites to consecutive monarchs are very rare, and Moltke must have known this.
Although sometimes the favorite survives the transition to the new regime, even if he's not the *favorite* of the new monarch, like Mazarin. I suspect it helped Louis's acceptance of him that he wasn't an emotional favorite of Dad's, just a political colleague, and he was the emotional favorite of *Mom*. And of course the regency: Christian came to power when he was 17, old enough to reign in his own name.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Especially hated by him was the former favorite of his father: Moltke. He considered him a man only concerned with his own interest. Once, at a court feast, an intoxicated Frederik V is supposed to have promised him Hirschholm Palace as a gift. When Christian learned about this, he hurried to the cabinet library, drew a sketch of the pleasure palace on a piece of paper, and took it to Moltke. "I beseech Your Excellency," he said to the all-powerful minister, "to content yourself with this, because you will never get the real palace, unless you also get the crown." On another occasion, he's supposed to have remarked about Moltke, "Selfishness is one of his four Achilles' heels!"
The citation for these is an 1841 book called "Merkwürdigkeiten aus der Weltgeschichte," which doesn't inspire confidence and which I can't seem to find online, but whether or not this exact anecdote happened, I bet Moltke saw his dismissal coming (but I bet he still blamed the evil advisors).
Also, "unless you also get the crown" to an all-powerful minister...that sounds like a veiled accusation. Barz (our romanticizing biographer of Struensee) refers to "König Moltke" at one point, but I don't know if that was a contemporary phrase (well, an attested one, I bet contemporaries said it privately amongst themselves!) or just Barz being a novelist and playright at heart.
Judging by Wikipedia, Moltke did *not* get Hirschholm Palace: it was originally built by Christian VI for his wife Sophia Magdalena, she lived there until her death in 1770 (so after Frederik V died in 1766), Struensee and Caroline Mathilde lived there until 1771, and after that it fell into disrepair.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Also, "unless you also get the crown" to an all-powerful minister...that sounds like a veiled accusation.
Well, yes, but I don't think literally, because there's no way Moltke could have managed that one in a literal fashion. Otoh, if he had married his daughter to Frederik, then I could see conspiratoritorilly minded people believing he did this in preparation of a coup - i.e. wait till the girl has delivered a son, off Frederik (if he hadn't drunken himself to death at that point already), off Christian, become regent for the grandkid, presto. (I mean, even Struensee later wasn't accused of wanting liteerally to become King, but of wanting to make CM regent while continuing to rule as all powerful PM. OUtside of Disney movies, all powerfull ministers who aren't members of the immediate royal family this late in history can't plot to make themselves King. (Boo, hiss at the 1990s Musketeers version which has Richelieu doing this.)
Then again: Christian isn't mentally stable, so who knows, maybe he did mean it literally, disregarding all logic. But if he's still more or less compos mentis, he might have said this to Moltke after the death of his own mother and before Juliana arrived on the scene, thus making it clear Moltke doesn't want to become Grandfather of the next King?
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
It was less the anecdote collection than the "World History" that I was commenting on. Any time there's a book, anecdote collection or no, that covers "world history," I assume the author has gone for breadth rather than depth, and I bring a lot of skepticism about the accuracy to the table. The exception being if it's a collection of essays by specialists on their respective topics, but this is not that.
Nicolai, in contrast, was researching a single topic in-depth.
Well, yes, but I don't think literally, because there's no way Moltke could have managed that one in a literal fashion.
Oh, I assume Christian meant "i.e., when hell freezes over"! But it still feels like accusing Moltke of, idk, lese-majeste, for Christian to be mentioning it even sarcastically, which is the part I raised an eyebrow at. But maybe I'm overreacting.
Then again: Christian isn't mentally stable, so who knows, maybe he did mean it literally, disregarding all logic.
I mean, he did think his stepmother wanted him dead so her son could inherit, maybe he thought Moltke was conspiring too, in the way you suggest?
I mean, even Struensee later wasn't accused of wanting liteerally to become King
I could have sworn he was, and yes, Barz says he was, but this is Barz, we have to read him with a grain of salt. Here's the relevant passage, though.
The wildest rumors are still rife in Copenhagen. Now they are already creating a very concrete picture that is nourished by a terrible vision, by the memory of the events at the Tsar's court around ten years ago: the assassination of Peter III, his successor an underage child, his wife Catherine, and their favorites and accomplices surrounded, the almighty regent — couldn't that also be applied to Denmark? Long before Struensee's appearance, hadn't the Russian ambassador Filosofov, with a booming lack of tact, announced that this king would also have his Catherine? Could those have been prophetic words?
Here too a weak, perhaps mentally disturbed king, here too a self-confident queen and in the background, as another Potemkin or Orlow, Struensee — his net already seems to have been woven: together with the queen, who is in bondage to him, they will get rid of Christian, then Caroline Mathilde is automatically regent and her lover the first man in the state. They might even get married. The queen has already announced that she has nothing against a commoner as long as she loves him, and thanks to Struensee the relevant laws have already been passed. And Crown Prince Friedrich? The minister is already holding him tightly in his claws, and the shocked story goes around that Struensee lets the little boy starve and freeze. He probably wants to murder him too, so that there is room for himself and his brood. But the king, this noble fool, also gives his wife's favorite a magnificently sparkling carriage. After his murder, Struensee will probably let himself be driven in it to his own coronation.
We'll see what the more academic book says, though. (Or at least I hope we will: my book-buying outstrips my reading by orders of magnitude. I'm an optimist or a book addict, depending on how you want to look at it. ;))
This is also a stretch, but it's worth pointing out that in neighboring Sweden, the monarchy had been made elective just 30-40 years before, during a succession crisis, and the crown went to the German noble who married the late king's sister. Now, said German noble was a ruling landgrave with a respectable lineage, not Some Minor Noble from Mecklenburg who had only been given a title a few years before, so Moltke's odds here are not good, but idk...Christian's paranoid.
he might have said this to Moltke after the death of his own mother and before Juliana arrived on the scene
Unfortunately, the timing doesn't work, as he was only 3 years old at the time, but you do make a good point that *if* this anecdote happened, it either presupposes that Frederik's marriage offer and Moltke's refusal were not common knowledge...or that they were and that's why Christian meant "when hell freezes over." I suspect this wasn't common knowledge, though, as our sole source seems to be Moltke's very allusive mention in his memoirs and the editor's math around the dates of Moltke's daughter's age and marriage.
Btw, the fact that Moltke had to marry his 14-yo off in haste while the marriage negotiations with Juliana Maria were in progress makes me wonder if Moltke was afraid of an elopement. Impetuous, often intoxicated Frederik might decide that Moltke is being too modest and he, Frederik, will do him a favor and surprise him? And I could see the 14-yo girl easily being dazzled by the crown, no matter how many talks her serious-business no-fun father had with her about how this is a Really Really Bad Idea, No Really. (I do wonder if she was even told, or if i it was like, "So! I found you a great husband! The wedding is next month.")
Actually, the dates are even closer than I thought: young Catherine Moltke gets married June 16, according to the editor, and Frederik/Juliana Maria on July 8. Yeah, I wonder if Moltke was worried.
ETA: Because it's not digitized yet, I can only glance through the academic Struensee book, but what I've found so far is a statement that Struensee was accused of planning to pull a Cromwell. Does that sound more like "kill the king and rule as regent" or "kill the king and rule in your own name" to you? (Serious question.)
This claim goes back to a 19th century book on the conspiracy against Caroline Mathilde and Struensee, and it does indeed say "Many saw in him a prospective Cromwell." No further context on what they mean by that.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
1. "König Moltke" is absolutely what his contemporaries called him and not something made up by Barz. (I know this has no bearing on whether people thought he was in danger of making a literal bid for the throne, but I was wondering. And if it's true, and if that remark by Christian is true, it provides some additional context.)
2. According to this book, Christian held a grudge against Moltke because Moltke kept him out of state affairs. Danish law said that the king was competent to rule at age 14, and since Frederik was clearly dying, Christian felt he should have been allowed to play an active part in the government, but Moltke made sure Christian wasn't included or trained at all, and Bernstorff didn't dare oppose his powerful protector.
Now that I believe, as very few powerful rulers do bring themselves to train a successor during their lifetimes. Moltke specifically avoided joining council sessions so he could spend all his time making sure he was one step away from the easy-to-influence Frederik, not arguing with people who might not listen to him. Why on earth would he give up being König Moltke in favor of Christian a moment sooner than he had to?
So yeah, I see even more grounds for resentment and claims of selfishness here. (Should a mentally ill 14-year-old be allowed to rule a country, well, Moltke, I might actually be on your side here, but I see how it created bad blood, even beyond the abusive tutor situation.)
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Holdovers of the previous regime speak out
Re: Holdovers of the previous regime speak out
Re: Holdovers of the previous regime speak out
Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
Re: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
Re: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
Re: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
(Anonymous) - 2023-03-03 07:36 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
Re: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
(Anonymous) - 2023-03-03 07:44 (UTC) - ExpandRe: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
Re: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
Re: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
Re: Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all?
Mirror mirror on the wall: Who's the evilest of them all? cont'd
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Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
You know, I am reminded of something
Moltke and Aurelia Plath strike me as excellent supporting evidence for this theory.
"Neurotic and codependent": I have seen in numerous places the Frederik/Moltke relationship described as "lifelong relationship of total dependence" or "mutually dependent" and the like. Around the time I read, "Go talk to my wife about her hernia because I can't," I was like, "Wow, it's really not just that he doesn't want to do the boring parts of government."
Moltke: "Yes, I know I'm the only one you trust to pick out your next wife, but then I would have to not constantly be with you, and everyone knows I don't do that!"
Fredersdorf: "Wow, at least I got to go to Paris, not to mention all the other separations."
Moltke: "At least my monarch wanted me to have a wife and family!"
Mildred: "Did you hear me the first time? Therapy for EVERYONE!"
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
Ohhhh I have not actually seen those letters, that sounds fascinating.
But also, in my experience, people keep telling their mothers how wonderful they are when the mother demands that!
What I'm getting at: I bet Moltke included all those apology letters to show what a great guy Frederik was and how affectionate and great their relationship with the same mindset of Aurelia Plath, that the lashing-out King wasn't the "real" Frederik... little realizing that readers might wonder what Frederik is apologizing for, etc.
AHAHAHA yes what I was thinking.