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18th-Century Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 33
And, I mean, it doesn't have to be just 18th century characters, either!
(also, waiting for Yuletide!)
(also, waiting for Yuletide!)
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
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mildred_of_midgard
2022-01-11 10:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Another Joseph idea is to trade Belgium for Bavaria.
Not just a Joseph idea! Joseph just revives it. Charles VI had the idea all the way back in 1715, as soon as Austria got the Spanish Netherlands. He kept wanting to do it, only nobody else would agree. (Getting the Spanish Netherlands out of the war of the Spanish Succession was kind of not a big win for Austria, for reasons discussed in my 1720s write-up.)
More when time. Thank you for this in the meantime!
Not just a Joseph idea! Joseph just revives it. Charles VI had the idea all the way back in 1715, as soon as Austria got the Spanish Netherlands. He kept wanting to do it, only nobody else would agree. (Getting the Spanish Netherlands out of the war of the Spanish Succession was kind of not a big win for Austria, for reasons discussed in my 1720s write-up.)
More when time. Thank you for this in the meantime!
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
mildred_of_midgard
2022-01-12 01:15 am (UTC)(link)
Maybe? I'd never felt I could make a connection, because they're so far apart in time (the gift was 1750). I also assumed the gift was mostly for Peter and using her as the intermediary was more of an excuse, partly because that's how Hanway presents it and partly because Peter gets another gift 3 years later, same time of year.
What's more interesting to me now that I know Fritz was sympathetic to her plight in 1736, is that Hanway says Fritz wasn't in her good graces in 1750!
What's more interesting to me now that I know Fritz was sympathetic to her plight in 1736, is that Hanway says Fritz wasn't in her good graces in 1750!
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
(Anonymous) 2022-01-12 04:17 am (UTC)(link)Well, firstly, given FWs FW-ness in 1736, she didn't necessarily know Fritz was sympathetic in 1736! Saying something to Manteuffel is one thing, talking to her directly another. Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside, and presumably remained there until the pregnancy was over, the kid was born and hopefully the scandal was less. Greeting her upon her return with: Countess, I'm behind you and sorry about the money! would have been rude rather than helpful.
And secondly, as you say, in 1750, much time has passed, and what she did witness in recent years was her son-in-law getting slighted. Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
And secondly, as you say, in 1750, much time has passed, and what she did witness in recent years was her son-in-law getting slighted. Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Well, firstly, given FWs FW-ness in 1736, she didn't necessarily know Fritz was sympathetic in 1736!
Agreed, I just thought it was interesting that it didn't translate to anything positive after he became king. Agree that Peter was probably a significant reason, and not just the slighting but possibly the war starting. Jordan says:
La Knyphausen is very sad to see that Keith, to whom she has promised her eldest daughter, and whom she regarded as the future support of her family, is about to leave. I believe that she is seeking to retire to her lands in Ost-Frisia, and that she will ask for permission.
Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside
And if she was in Jennelt, she was not just in the countryside but all the way over in East Frisia! East Frisia being where the Knyphausen family came from, and Jennelt one of their estates there, asfelis and I found when we researched possible burial places for Peter. Reminder for cahn: East Frisia or East Friesland is near the Netherlands, and won't become Prussian territory until 1744, when the local ruling family dies out and Fritz inherits.
Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Indeed, and whenfelis reminded me that Voltaire said she was ruined, I thought that maybe this rumor started because she complained so much about the fine!
Agreed, I just thought it was interesting that it didn't translate to anything positive after he became king. Agree that Peter was probably a significant reason, and not just the slighting but possibly the war starting. Jordan says:
La Knyphausen is very sad to see that Keith, to whom she has promised her eldest daughter, and whom she regarded as the future support of her family, is about to leave. I believe that she is seeking to retire to her lands in Ost-Frisia, and that she will ask for permission.
Also, if I understood this correctly she wasn't in Berlin at the time but in the countryside
And if she was in Jennelt, she was not just in the countryside but all the way over in East Frisia! East Frisia being where the Knyphausen family came from, and Jennelt one of their estates there, as
felis and I found when we researched possible burial places for Peter. Reminder for cahn: East Frisia or East Friesland is near the Netherlands, and won't become Prussian territory until 1744, when the local ruling family dies out and Fritz inherits.Still, if she did have a reputation for liking money and being thrifty, the nature of the present could be influenced by this.
Indeed, and when
felis reminded me that Voltaire said she was ruined, I thought that maybe this rumor started because she complained so much about the fine!Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
mildred_of_midgard
2022-01-12 03:57 pm (UTC)(link)
It's not ringing a bell, but if Fritz was there, I'm betting Algarotti was involved! :P
- FW cuts down people's pensions, Fritz resupplies them with his own money - "his last 10 Taler" according to W/M - , which makes him popular but also makes his father explode
You know, I'm 99% sure we ran into this before. I can't remember when or where, but it's ringing a bell, and I may have even made the same sugar daddy crack.
You know, I'm 99% sure we ran into this before. I can't remember when or where, but it's ringing a bell, and I may have even made the same sugar daddy crack.
Also, I'm delighted that you're reading Massie! Is he not entertaining?
Re Catherine, though, I should point out that she's 100 years after Sophia, and that the position of noble and royal women in Russia had changed significantly. Before Sophia, there had been no women publicly wielding power. Before Catherine, there had been not only Sophia, but Catherine I, Anna Ivanovna, Anna Leopoldovna (as regent), and Elizaveta. There was a huge amount of social change, especially at the top, in those hundred years. Not that the odds weren't still against Catherine and it wasn't impressive that she managed what she did! But Sophia really lived in a different world.
Re Catherine, though, I should point out that she's 100 years after Sophia, and that the position of noble and royal women in Russia had changed significantly. Before Sophia, there had been no women publicly wielding power. Before Catherine, there had been not only Sophia, but Catherine I, Anna Ivanovna, Anna Leopoldovna (as regent), and Elizaveta. There was a huge amount of social change, especially at the top, in those hundred years. Not that the odds weren't still against Catherine and it wasn't impressive that she managed what she did! But Sophia really lived in a different world.
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - C - Music
mildred_of_midgard
2022-01-12 04:08 pm (UTC)(link)
Not much to say about this, but it was interesting.
"Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstreous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question where those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.
This makes perfect sense, and I'm going to share it with my wife, because she brings up that quote whenever I mention Joseph. (She has only pop culture knowledge of this period, although these days she has some gossipy sensationalism knowledge too. :P)
"Too many notes", has been taken as evidence of his ignorance. But he probably said something like "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstreous many notes." It is always necessary to bear in mind, when appraising the emperor's remarks, his peculiar brand of humor or sarcasm. He was usually getting at someone. And he did not use the royal "we". The ears in question where those of the Viennese audience, whom he was mocking for their limited appreciation of Mozart's elaborate music.
This makes perfect sense, and I'm going to share it with my wife, because she brings up that quote whenever I mention Joseph. (She has only pop culture knowledge of this period, although these days she has some gossipy sensationalism knowledge too. :P)
Seriously, though, given all of this, if I was Fritz I'd have told Wilhelmine to stay in Bayreuth, too! (Though given Wilhelmine probably yearned for a "Well done, daughter!" moment, too, and had not experienced the face to face joy of parental behaviour since her miserable 8 months in 1732/1734, it's also not surprising part of her wanted to go.)
Agreed on both counts. I can see exactly where both of them were coming from and sympathize with both of them in this situation.
Methinks he was probably feeling safe to do so because he was so famous a painter that if FW had kicked him out and had not died, he'd have easily found a place in Saxony or Austria or France.
Yes, this does make sense! Question, though: could FW have done anything worse than kick him out? Like lock him up or anything?
Agreed on both counts. I can see exactly where both of them were coming from and sympathize with both of them in this situation.
Methinks he was probably feeling safe to do so because he was so famous a painter that if FW had kicked him out and had not died, he'd have easily found a place in Saxony or Austria or France.
Yes, this does make sense! Question, though: could FW have done anything worse than kick him out? Like lock him up or anything?
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - A
mildred_of_midgard
2022-01-13 12:18 am (UTC)(link)
My work deadline got extended late last night, yay, so I have a little more time than expected for salon this week.
But, says Beales, Peter and FW worked with their nobles.
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I'm still surprised Peter pulled off what he did, because he didn't exactly cater to his nobles, but he wasn't opposed to the idea of nobles. And I guess "yay serfdom" does count as catering.
Joseph does come across as the child MT and Fritz never had in his flaws, but also virtues.
Never thought of it that way, but what a great way to put it!
(something neither Catherine or Fritz managed in their territories)
cahn: note that they both made an effort, with all the enlightenment discourse about same, but backed off pretty quickly because they needed the support of the nobility. Catherine in large part because her grip on power was rather shaky, Fritz because he'd killed off half his nobles in the Seven Years' War insisting they be front-line officers. Well, Fritz really because he'd started with the a priori belief that the nobility of the sword made the best servants of the state, and then structured his approach to rule around keeping the support of the nobility.
Joseph, on the other hand, was like, "I don't need no stinkin' nobles!"
(How do we know? The young priest would later become Pope himself.
Ha. Which pope was this?
Ultra tragicallly, she would die in childbirth three days before Joseph died himself. He ordered she was to be buried as his first wife Isabella had been, and her new baby to be baptized as his dead daughter had been and in her baptism robe. That the biggest tragedies of his life should thus repeat themselves while he was painfully dying is just extra awful.
Ooof, yes. :(
Now, there were understandable reasons; the Hungarian nobles had always insisted on keeping their serfs, for example, and unless you were willing to subordinate the Hungarian contitution to the new Austrian law, this would not change. But it was still a wholesale disaster that in the end resulted in rebellions in both Hungary and Belgium.
Didn't...remind me, didn't Joseph write some Realpolitik memorandum about how if he had his way, he would ask the Hungarians for 10 years to make changes, and then make laws that they didn't like and possibly had agreed not to make, on the grounds that it was for their own good?
Yeah, that's one way to win Hungarian hearts.
Oh, lololol. That letter starts out so promising, and then he shoots himself in the foot with the increasing sarcasm. Yeah, I can see why MT was like, "Look, Fritz is not your role model, you're going to alienate everyone!"
Leopold, btw, was a fan of the Hungarian constitution, not for the serf factor but for a general liking of constitutionalism.
Someone I was reading recently--I can't remember if it was Beales--was casting Leopold's interest in constitutionalism as lip service, since the Tuscans never actually got a constitution out of him. Thoughts? Of course, we all have yet read any Leopold bios.
one of the conditions was that secundogeniture should apply, i.e. Tuscany would be inherited by FS's second son, not his first born, to ensure Tuscany would not become part of the Empire
As I recall, that was the one political point that Gian Gastone actually stood firm on, at least according to the less-than-trustworthy Acton, I think.
Leopold, who has lived in Tuscany for decades now and is aware of local feeling: Head. Desk.
Yeah, there was a lot of that on Leopold's part (as you mention in the next installment).
But, says Beales, Peter and FW worked with their nobles.
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I'm still surprised Peter pulled off what he did, because he didn't exactly cater to his nobles, but he wasn't opposed to the idea of nobles. And I guess "yay serfdom" does count as catering.
Joseph does come across as the child MT and Fritz never had in his flaws, but also virtues.
Never thought of it that way, but what a great way to put it!
(something neither Catherine or Fritz managed in their territories)
cahn: note that they both made an effort, with all the enlightenment discourse about same, but backed off pretty quickly because they needed the support of the nobility. Catherine in large part because her grip on power was rather shaky, Fritz because he'd killed off half his nobles in the Seven Years' War insisting they be front-line officers. Well, Fritz really because he'd started with the a priori belief that the nobility of the sword made the best servants of the state, and then structured his approach to rule around keeping the support of the nobility.Joseph, on the other hand, was like, "I don't need no stinkin' nobles!"
(How do we know? The young priest would later become Pope himself.
Ha. Which pope was this?
Ultra tragicallly, she would die in childbirth three days before Joseph died himself. He ordered she was to be buried as his first wife Isabella had been, and her new baby to be baptized as his dead daughter had been and in her baptism robe. That the biggest tragedies of his life should thus repeat themselves while he was painfully dying is just extra awful.
Ooof, yes. :(
Now, there were understandable reasons; the Hungarian nobles had always insisted on keeping their serfs, for example, and unless you were willing to subordinate the Hungarian contitution to the new Austrian law, this would not change. But it was still a wholesale disaster that in the end resulted in rebellions in both Hungary and Belgium.
Didn't...remind me, didn't Joseph write some Realpolitik memorandum about how if he had his way, he would ask the Hungarians for 10 years to make changes, and then make laws that they didn't like and possibly had agreed not to make, on the grounds that it was for their own good?
Yeah, that's one way to win Hungarian hearts.
Oh, lololol. That letter starts out so promising, and then he shoots himself in the foot with the increasing sarcasm. Yeah, I can see why MT was like, "Look, Fritz is not your role model, you're going to alienate everyone!"
Leopold, btw, was a fan of the Hungarian constitution, not for the serf factor but for a general liking of constitutionalism.
Someone I was reading recently--I can't remember if it was Beales--was casting Leopold's interest in constitutionalism as lip service, since the Tuscans never actually got a constitution out of him. Thoughts? Of course, we all have yet read any Leopold bios.
one of the conditions was that secundogeniture should apply, i.e. Tuscany would be inherited by FS's second son, not his first born, to ensure Tuscany would not become part of the Empire
As I recall, that was the one political point that Gian Gastone actually stood firm on, at least according to the less-than-trustworthy Acton, I think.
Leopold, who has lived in Tuscany for decades now and is aware of local feeling: Head. Desk.
Yeah, there was a lot of that on Leopold's part (as you mention in the next installment).
Edited 2022-01-13 00:18 (UTC)
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
mildred_of_midgard
2022-01-13 12:28 am (UTC)(link)
Mind you: two years later, they realize that any league with Fritz as a member is just a tool of Prussian policy and he's easily as high handed as Joseph
Buh--the Fürstenbund was founded in 1785! You can argue about whether people should have read the Anti-Machiavel more closely between September and December 1740, but 1785!! Surely Fritz's high-handedness and desire to dominate other principalities was well known!
(Incidentally, Blanning's line on the Fürstenbund that he likes so much he uses it, slightly rephrased, in at least 2 or 3 of his books, is: "The Austrian gamekeeper had turned poacher, forcing the Prussian poacher to turn gamekeeper."
Leopold was bursting with resentment and even hate, towards the end. He wrote a secret memorandum after his 1784 visit to Vienna which is among the most vicious thing ever written about Joseph.
Was that the Relazione, or was that different?
Also, as I recall, he was writing in invisible ink to his siblings, because he knew Joseph was reading his mail. But, says Beales, he obviously didn't switch to the lemon juice soon enough, because one of his non-invisible ink letters was read by Joseph and was critical enough of Joseph to cause bad feelings/problems/something I don't have time to look up.
She has finally had to undergo proper treatment, having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
18 children *and* a gangrenous vagina sore, good god. D:
but she paid little attention to what they said.
She also paid very little attention to what MT said when MT tried to advise her on her relations with her husband as well, early on in the marriage. "Mom, I got this, don't worry!" And for a while at least, she did.
Ferdinand of Naples: still the worst husband in that Habsburg generation!
No kidding!
Buh--the Fürstenbund was founded in 1785! You can argue about whether people should have read the Anti-Machiavel more closely between September and December 1740, but 1785!! Surely Fritz's high-handedness and desire to dominate other principalities was well known!
(Incidentally, Blanning's line on the Fürstenbund that he likes so much he uses it, slightly rephrased, in at least 2 or 3 of his books, is: "The Austrian gamekeeper had turned poacher, forcing the Prussian poacher to turn gamekeeper."
Leopold was bursting with resentment and even hate, towards the end. He wrote a secret memorandum after his 1784 visit to Vienna which is among the most vicious thing ever written about Joseph.
Was that the Relazione, or was that different?
Also, as I recall, he was writing in invisible ink to his siblings, because he knew Joseph was reading his mail. But, says Beales, he obviously didn't switch to the lemon juice soon enough, because one of his non-invisible ink letters was read by Joseph and was critical enough of Joseph to cause bad feelings/problems/something I don't have time to look up.
She has finally had to undergo proper treatment, having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
18 children *and* a gangrenous vagina sore, good god. D:
but she paid little attention to what they said.
She also paid very little attention to what MT said when MT tried to advise her on her relations with her husband as well, early on in the marriage. "Mom, I got this, don't worry!" And for a while at least, she did.
Ferdinand of Naples: still the worst husband in that Habsburg generation!
No kidding!
Re: Reports from the Dresden State Archive - Fritz and Manteuffel
mildred_of_midgard
2022-01-13 12:32 am (UTC)(link)
Not that I know of! But maybe we'll find out, as we often do. ;) Though given the classism of that period, possibly not.
"(S)he had been a bulwark on which he needed to lean even while he was pummelling it with his fists."
Oh, I really like that <3
Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself.
<3
Yes, this seems very true to me in the way that grief works. <3 Poor Joseph, he just went through a lot, and I feel like his grief and love just shows through so plainly in his words that it becomes sort of timeless, like that heartbreaking letter you quoted about his daughter a while back <33333
Oh, I really like that <3
Every minute I think I ought to be sending her some packets or going to see her myself.
<3
Yes, this seems very true to me in the way that grief works. <3 Poor Joseph, he just went through a lot, and I feel like his grief and love just shows through so plainly in his words that it becomes sort of timeless, like that heartbreaking letter you quoted about his daughter a while back <33333
Even if it did not, there was nothing to worry about
has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Definitely! Not the worst strategy I guess.
ahahaha, I just always imagine him doing the deed once and being like, "welp, okay! Seems to have worked for my parents, apparently worked for Wilhelmine, hopefully it works for me, not doing that again!"
has always made me think that he was doing the bare minimum, if that. Set those expectations low, Fritz!
Definitely! Not the worst strategy I guess.
ahahaha, I just always imagine him doing the deed once and being like, "welp, okay! Seems to have worked for my parents, apparently worked for Wilhelmine, hopefully it works for me, not doing that again!"
And then they were all SHOCKED whenever they found out someone else was doing it.
I laughed!
FW says: "I don't regret having to die, for he who fears death is a dog. But what I do regret is that I should have such a monster ("Unmensch") like my son as my successor."
OMG. FW :(
Another time, he swore that he could blame himself for only one thing, and that was not having the Prince executed ten years ago.
FW, why are you like this :(
I laughed!
FW says: "I don't regret having to die, for he who fears death is a dog. But what I do regret is that I should have such a monster ("Unmensch") like my son as my successor."
OMG. FW :(
Another time, he swore that he could blame himself for only one thing, and that was not having the Prince executed ten years ago.
FW, why are you like this :(
"I don't understand why, under the current circumstances, you have such a vivid desire to come here. The King is in a bad state, but life in Berlin is really not for you. You will act according to your own judgement, but if you regret it and experience sorrow here, don't hold me responsible. I'm predicting how things will go, there's nothing more I can do. You haven't been here in eight years, so maybe you forgot the hundred thousand little things which two days in Berlin will remind you of, to your detriment. I'm saying it with the bible: blessed are the absent or those who don't know what is happening here, because we often say: Mountains, cover us, Hills, fall over us!"
Oh wow.
...Although I do have sympathy for Wilhelmine and totally see where she's coming from and why she yearned for validation from her parents, I... must admit that in this particular instance I have a certain amount of empathy for Fritz, as my sister and I have a bit of this dynamic (my parents are not really anything like FW or SD, thankfully, but validation is not really a thing one gets from them, and I think my sister might have figured that out, but it took her longer than it took me).
Also, this totally reminds me of Fritz telling Heinrich that it's a terrible idea to go to Dear Old Wusterhausen, heh. He was right then, too!
Oh wow.
...Although I do have sympathy for Wilhelmine and totally see where she's coming from and why she yearned for validation from her parents, I... must admit that in this particular instance I have a certain amount of empathy for Fritz, as my sister and I have a bit of this dynamic (my parents are not really anything like FW or SD, thankfully, but validation is not really a thing one gets from them, and I think my sister might have figured that out, but it took her longer than it took me).
Also, this totally reminds me of Fritz telling Heinrich that it's a terrible idea to go to Dear Old Wusterhausen, heh. He was right then, too!
But, says Beales, Peter and FW worked with their nobles.
That seems quite plausible to me! I remember the first time you ever told me about Joseph you pointed out that he basically made everyone mad at him all the time, which Peter and FW don't seem to have done to nearly the same degree (well, I am still reading about Peter). Poor Joseph -- in a way he honestly reminds me of this xkcd cartoon, only replace "sex" with "politics." That is, I love him because okay, maybe he wasn't a well-loved or always-politically-astute emperor, but he does hit all those buttons of "geeky idealist who is shocked when life is more complicated than that" for me <3
However, Beales also argues that a better tempered, less stubborn monarch would not have achieved what Joseph did.
But this is really cool :)
the big difference between his actions and that of, say, Henry VIII and Thomas Cromwell, was that a) the money from the dissolution didn't go to the throne and some nobles, it went to a fund for social charity purposes, which exists to this day in Austria, and b) the monks from the dissolved monasteries had the option of either joining their order in other countries or work as parish priests, which mosts of them did.
And so is this! I love that he really was idealistic <3
How do we know? The young priest would later become Pope himself.
Likemildred_of_midgard, I want to know who this Pope is and did he write gossipy tell-all diaries which is how we know about this??
She would be one of the few family members with whom Joseph was to remain on excellent terms for his remaining life. Ultra tragicallly, she would die in childbirth three days before Joseph died himself. He ordered she was to be buried as his first wife Isabella had been, and her new baby to be baptized as his dead daughter had been and in her baptism robe.
:(((( I'm afraid to ask, what happened to the baby?
One of Joseph's most sympathetic reforms were the emancipation of the Jews (and toleration of Protestant) edicts
YAY JOSEPH, seriously this is just so refreshing given... all the other over-the-top anti-Semitism going on :P
Yeah, that's one way to win Hungarian hearts.
Oh nooooo Joseph :(
Since he was afraid that the Emperor would be angry, a returning Salieri went to the Kreuzgang where the Emperor usually was taking petitions from the commons. Joseph spotted him, greeted him warmly in welcome and spent the next two hours talking with him about music.
<3 Aww! And also, the more I find out about historical!Salieri the more I like him too :)
That seems quite plausible to me! I remember the first time you ever told me about Joseph you pointed out that he basically made everyone mad at him all the time, which Peter and FW don't seem to have done to nearly the same degree (well, I am still reading about Peter). Poor Joseph -- in a way he honestly reminds me of this xkcd cartoon, only replace "sex" with "politics." That is, I love him because okay, maybe he wasn't a well-loved or always-politically-astute emperor, but he does hit all those buttons of "geeky idealist who is shocked when life is more complicated than that" for me <3
However, Beales also argues that a better tempered, less stubborn monarch would not have achieved what Joseph did.
But this is really cool :)
the big difference between his actions and that of, say, Henry VIII and Thomas Cromwell, was that a) the money from the dissolution didn't go to the throne and some nobles, it went to a fund for social charity purposes, which exists to this day in Austria, and b) the monks from the dissolved monasteries had the option of either joining their order in other countries or work as parish priests, which mosts of them did.
And so is this! I love that he really was idealistic <3
How do we know? The young priest would later become Pope himself.
Like
mildred_of_midgard, I want to know who this Pope is She would be one of the few family members with whom Joseph was to remain on excellent terms for his remaining life. Ultra tragicallly, she would die in childbirth three days before Joseph died himself. He ordered she was to be buried as his first wife Isabella had been, and her new baby to be baptized as his dead daughter had been and in her baptism robe.
:(((( I'm afraid to ask, what happened to the baby?
One of Joseph's most sympathetic reforms were the emancipation of the Jews (and toleration of Protestant) edicts
YAY JOSEPH, seriously this is just so refreshing given... all the other over-the-top anti-Semitism going on :P
Yeah, that's one way to win Hungarian hearts.
Oh nooooo Joseph :(
Since he was afraid that the Emperor would be angry, a returning Salieri went to the Kreuzgang where the Emperor usually was taking petitions from the commons. Joseph spotted him, greeted him warmly in welcome and spent the next two hours talking with him about music.
<3 Aww! And also, the more I find out about historical!Salieri the more I like him too :)
Edited 2022-01-13 06:06 (UTC)
He wrote a secret memorandum after his 1784 visit to Vienna which is among the most vicious thing ever written about Joseph.
I... I think that I need to hear more about this :P
having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
OMG, poor Maria Carolina :(
(The Joseph and Leopold correspondence: speaking in anatomically frank terms about their sisters' and brothers-in-laws genitalia, thus ensuring these letters won't be printed until the later 20th century.)
AHAHAHAHA
But then, while she was both ill and pregnant, the king forced himself upon her. Relations between them had now, unsurprisingly, become very bad, increasing the political difficulties. Joseph declared the King "a monster", and he and Leopold tried to help and advise her, as she requested, but she paid little attention to what they said.
OMG :(
(Also, I am really wishing now Goldstone had been more reliable, because this is all clearly fascinating and I would have loved an accurate historical-romance-anecdote-filled-history, as opposed to what we got.)
I... I think that I need to hear more about this :P
having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
OMG, poor Maria Carolina :(
(The Joseph and Leopold correspondence: speaking in anatomically frank terms about their sisters' and brothers-in-laws genitalia, thus ensuring these letters won't be printed until the later 20th century.)
AHAHAHAHA
But then, while she was both ill and pregnant, the king forced himself upon her. Relations between them had now, unsurprisingly, become very bad, increasing the political difficulties. Joseph declared the King "a monster", and he and Leopold tried to help and advise her, as she requested, but she paid little attention to what they said.
OMG :(
(Also, I am really wishing now Goldstone had been more reliable, because this is all clearly fascinating and I would have loved an accurate historical-romance-anecdote-filled-history, as opposed to what we got.)
Ooh, thank you! :D
But he probably said something like "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstreous many notes."
Deleted my previous line here, because I found where you'd explained it to me before :) (I'll link it for mildred in her comment.) Well, anyway, as you know, I rather do think it's too many notes :P :) but of course, only in hindsight, knowing what Mozart would eventually produce, which isn't fair to early Mozart :)
Far from yawning at the Figaropremière, Joseph liked the opera so much that he ordered it performed for his guests at Laxenburg in June the same year.
:D This makes me happy! (I really, really like Figaro.)
(La Clemenza di Tito, which Mozart wrote for Leopold's coronation, was badly received - Leopold's wife called it "una porcheria tedesca" - and that was it in terms of Habsburg encouragement. But that was not Joseph's fault!)
This makes me unhappy, because I really like Clemenza too :P But at least, like you/Beales say, not Joseph's fault!
So possibly the original problem with Figaro befor da Ponte reworked it wasn't Figaro's cutting sarcastic speech about the aristocracy but the frivolous sexual shenigans.
Oh, okay, this is really interesting! I'd always assumed (and I'm pretty sure read in a couple of pop-history places) that it was the political content.
(In Beaumarchais, the Countess does have a fling with Cherubino, while da Ponte made her blameless.)
I hate stagings of opera!Figaro that imply a relationship between the Countess and Cherubino -- in my opinion da Ponte's libretto is really clear on that point :P But I did at some point read a synopsis of the third Beaumarchais play, about the Countess's son by Cherubino, and then I had to admit that, oh fine, maybe the plays are different :P (I still claim the third Beaumarchais play doesn't take place after Mozart's opera! That would make me sad :P )
The reason why a ballet was forbidden before was because Joseph hated the ballet interludes in French operas which were usually not connected to the plot and were thus pretty pointless in his eyes.
I am totally with you there, Joseph!
ETA: Going back to Amadeus -- of course, all of this about Joseph not liking music, etc. is from Shaffer!Salieri's potentially highly unreliable perspective. Is it possible that Shaffer knew Joseph was highly knowledgeable about music, and that this was an example of Salieri being an unreliable narrator? I mean, of course, Shaffer!Salieri is an extremely fictional creature, so Shaffer!Joseph might be as well and that's all there might be to it -- but it occurred to me that it could add another layer to Shaffer!Salieri's story.
But he probably said something like "Too beautiful for our ears, and monstreous many notes."
Deleted my previous line here, because I found where you'd explained it to me before :) (I'll link it for mildred in her comment.) Well, anyway, as you know, I rather do think it's too many notes :P :) but of course, only in hindsight, knowing what Mozart would eventually produce, which isn't fair to early Mozart :)
Far from yawning at the Figaropremière, Joseph liked the opera so much that he ordered it performed for his guests at Laxenburg in June the same year.
:D This makes me happy! (I really, really like Figaro.)
(La Clemenza di Tito, which Mozart wrote for Leopold's coronation, was badly received - Leopold's wife called it "una porcheria tedesca" - and that was it in terms of Habsburg encouragement. But that was not Joseph's fault!)
This makes me unhappy, because I really like Clemenza too :P But at least, like you/Beales say, not Joseph's fault!
So possibly the original problem with Figaro befor da Ponte reworked it wasn't Figaro's cutting sarcastic speech about the aristocracy but the frivolous sexual shenigans.
Oh, okay, this is really interesting! I'd always assumed (and I'm pretty sure read in a couple of pop-history places) that it was the political content.
(In Beaumarchais, the Countess does have a fling with Cherubino, while da Ponte made her blameless.)
I hate stagings of opera!Figaro that imply a relationship between the Countess and Cherubino -- in my opinion da Ponte's libretto is really clear on that point :P But I did at some point read a synopsis of the third Beaumarchais play, about the Countess's son by Cherubino, and then I had to admit that, oh fine, maybe the plays are different :P (I still claim the third Beaumarchais play doesn't take place after Mozart's opera! That would make me sad :P )
The reason why a ballet was forbidden before was because Joseph hated the ballet interludes in French operas which were usually not connected to the plot and were thus pretty pointless in his eyes.
I am totally with you there, Joseph!
ETA: Going back to Amadeus -- of course, all of this about Joseph not liking music, etc. is from Shaffer!Salieri's potentially highly unreliable perspective. Is it possible that Shaffer knew Joseph was highly knowledgeable about music, and that this was an example of Salieri being an unreliable narrator? I mean, of course, Shaffer!Salieri is an extremely fictional creature, so Shaffer!Joseph might be as well and that's all there might be to it -- but it occurred to me that it could add another layer to Shaffer!Salieri's story.
Edited 2022-01-13 06:36 (UTC)
ahahahaha, this is also the One Thing I knew about Joseph before salon, thanks to Amadeus! (And selenak had to tell me that it was a mistranslation -- her translation is very close to Beales, but Beales additionally discusses the pronouns -- when I finally listened to Entführung.)
selenak had to tell me that it was a mistranslation -- her translation is very close to Beales, but Beales additionally discusses the pronouns -- when I finally listened to Entführung.)That's how I see it, too. Which is ironic given that one of the most common complaints about him from his contemporaries was that he wasn't emo enough. (But then, it was an emo century, aka the age where men couldn't just cry and hug, it was expected of them, and the 19th century definition of stiff upper lip = masculinity had not yet struck.) A wittier complaint, aiming at Joseph's tendency to piss off so many people via sarcasm, was the Viennese saying "Emperor Joseph is a philanthropist, he just can't stand people". (In Viennese dialect, it's funnier: "Der Kaiser Joseph ist ein Menschenfreund, er mog bloss dera Leut net leiden.")
(To which Old Fritz would say: Same here.)
But he does come across as so very human in the way love and grief works on him, and also, in a less noble vein, in his awkwardness ("I feel like you belong to me" = only not worst pass by an 18th century monarch ever because there's always FW & Fräulein von Pannewitz) and conviction that OF COURSE, people will be happy about his reforms - they make sense, they're progress, what's not to love? And why should he bother with a PR campaign, he's an absolute monarch, Mom is dead, he doesn't need to explain himself to anyone!
(If I were an absolute monarch, and raised as one, I very much fear I'd go "my way or the highway", too. Born mediators are rarely heirs to absolute thrones.)
(To which Old Fritz would say: Same here.)
But he does come across as so very human in the way love and grief works on him, and also, in a less noble vein, in his awkwardness ("I feel like you belong to me" = only not worst pass by an 18th century monarch ever because there's always FW & Fräulein von Pannewitz) and conviction that OF COURSE, people will be happy about his reforms - they make sense, they're progress, what's not to love? And why should he bother with a PR campaign, he's an absolute monarch, Mom is dead, he doesn't need to explain himself to anyone!
(If I were an absolute monarch, and raised as one, I very much fear I'd go "my way or the highway", too. Born mediators are rarely heirs to absolute thrones.)
A more endearing yet utterly FW anecdote is the one we already know, which seems to have been based on Manteuffel's report (or at least Manteuffel's reports include it as well), which is his pastor exhorting him to forgive all his enemies if he wants God to forgive him, whereupon FW replies he doesn't have enemies except "die canaille", i.e. "that bastard", his brother-in-law G2, and promptly tells SD "Fieke, write to your brother that I forgive him all the wrongs he did me - but only after I am dead, not before!"
Gotta say, while I guess Hervey is right when saying FW and G2 couldn't stand each other because of their alikeness, I do wonder which wrongs G2 did committ against FW in FW's mind, given that FW was the one who won that fight when they were boys. Morgenstern names inheriting three crowns and marrying Caroline without deserving any of it, but those are not specific actions aimed at FW. The 1729 almost duel affair? Encouraging Fritz' escape attempt? (Which G2 did not, but FW remained convinced he did.) Other things?
Aaaanyway. What's always worth remembering is that in the last years of his life, FW was in constant physical pain due to his illnesses, and his idea of self medication was to drink, which didn't help his general temper problem. If you're in constant pain and have a hair trigger temper, you lash out at familiar targets. For FW, these were his oldest children, Gundling, G2 and (if she brought up the English marriage project or otherwise argued with him), SD.
Gotta say, while I guess Hervey is right when saying FW and G2 couldn't stand each other because of their alikeness, I do wonder which wrongs G2 did committ against FW in FW's mind, given that FW was the one who won that fight when they were boys. Morgenstern names inheriting three crowns and marrying Caroline without deserving any of it, but those are not specific actions aimed at FW. The 1729 almost duel affair? Encouraging Fritz' escape attempt? (Which G2 did not, but FW remained convinced he did.) Other things?
Aaaanyway. What's always worth remembering is that in the last years of his life, FW was in constant physical pain due to his illnesses, and his idea of self medication was to drink, which didn't help his general temper problem. If you're in constant pain and have a hair trigger temper, you lash out at familiar targets. For FW, these were his oldest children, Gundling, G2 and (if she brought up the English marriage project or otherwise argued with him), SD.
He so was. :) Examples of Fritz being the emotionally wisest are so rare they are worth being remembered!
Mind you, towards non-family members, Fritz wasn't above prettifying their family life in retrospect, and I don't just mean the hilarious "at least we're nothing like the Hannover cousins with their family dysfunction, we're so harmonious" to Mitchell. You have all types of witnesses, up to and including Fritz second chamber hussar who was with him for the last decades of his life testifying that Fritz was a model son who never said an unkind word about Dad other than the occasional "great King, but wow, that temper". But that's a familiar psychological mechanism, too, isn't it, for abused children to close ranks against outsiders and insisting everything was fine except for some minor excentricities?
Re: Wusterhausen, it's far, far away, so I can say it, but if next autumn there's a fanfic challenge featuring ghost stories you particularly like, tell me and I will join so I may have the chance to write a story about old Heinrich at Wusterhausen encountering all types of family ghosts during the last years of his life while reading Wilhelmine's memoirs. With or without a flashback to the family reunion of doom there two decades earlier. Hey, the Hohenzollern have their very own family ghost - a White Lady, no less - they should get a ghost story!
Mind you, towards non-family members, Fritz wasn't above prettifying their family life in retrospect, and I don't just mean the hilarious "at least we're nothing like the Hannover cousins with their family dysfunction, we're so harmonious" to Mitchell. You have all types of witnesses, up to and including Fritz second chamber hussar who was with him for the last decades of his life testifying that Fritz was a model son who never said an unkind word about Dad other than the occasional "great King, but wow, that temper". But that's a familiar psychological mechanism, too, isn't it, for abused children to close ranks against outsiders and insisting everything was fine except for some minor excentricities?
Re: Wusterhausen, it's far, far away, so I can say it, but if next autumn there's a fanfic challenge featuring ghost stories you particularly like, tell me and I will join so I may have the chance to write a story about old Heinrich at Wusterhausen encountering all types of family ghosts during the last years of his life while reading Wilhelmine's memoirs. With or without a flashback to the family reunion of doom there two decades earlier. Hey, the Hohenzollern have their very own family ghost - a White Lady, no less - they should get a ghost story!
The baby lived only for 16 months, see here the English wiki entry on Elisabeth and also the German entry, which as a few more details on her pregnancy and death, to wit:
1789 wurde Elisabeth schwanger, ihr Zustand war jedoch sehr instabil, nicht zuletzt verursacht durch die Unruhe wegen des sich ständig verschlechternden Gesundheitszustands von Kaiser Joseph. Nachdem Joseph am 15. Februar 1790 die letzte Ölung empfangen hatte, wollte Elisabeth ihn besuchen; bis dahin war ihr dies nämlich aufgrund ihres Zustands nicht gestattet worden. Um sie nicht durch seine Todesblässe zu erschrecken, ließ der Kaiser sein Krankenzimmer bei ihrem Empfang nur matt erleuchten. Dennoch war Elisabeth beim Anblick des todkranken Kaisers tief erschüttert und fiel in Ohnmacht. In der Nacht auf den 17. Februar gebar sie vorzeitig ein geistesschwaches Kind, Erzherzogin Ludovika Elisabeth, die bereits am 24. Juni 1791 starb. Elisabeth überlebte die über 24 Stunden dauernde Niederkunft nicht, bei der eine Notoperation eingeleitet wurde, um das Leben der Mutter zu retten. Sie starb am 18. Februar 1790 im Alter von nur 22 Jahren in Wien.
Joseph (who died on the 20th) not wanting to frighten her by his looks and having the room badly illuminated is yet another heartbreaking detail.
The future Pope who had to preach the sermon about Joseph at the Vatican was future Leo XII. For you and Mildred, here's the entire passage from Beales' book:
It was customary for a funeral serman to be preached at the Vatican when an emperor died. The task was entrusted to a young priest called Genga, who later became Pope Leo XII. A thick file in the archive of the Vienna nunciature shows how the text developed, or rather dwindled, in the face of criciticsm by the poope and others. It must be questionable whether any such sermon ever gave so much trouble.* Genga had brgun by trying to make the best case for Joseph as a devout Catholic reformer, adducing in his favour his repeal of some objectionable measures during his lastmonths. But almost all the favourable comments were vetoed. The result, of course, was bland and anodyne, much concerned with Joseph's fortitude on campaign and on his deathbed.
A more informative and rather striking sermon was preached in the athedral of Lucca by Christoforo Boccella in April 1790. The tiny independent republic of Lucca regarded itself as protected by the Emperor and gloried in his patronage. The preacherspoke of Joseph's tireless efforts for the benefit of his subjects, of his taking command of rescue operations when there were fires or floods in Vienna, of his extensive and clearly expressed legislation, and, most remarkably, of his having 'abolished the ill-conceived feudal system, a malign Gothic survival. Now the provinces do not groan under the burden and disgrace of servitude, which he destroyed, restoring an oppressed humanity its basic but too violated rights." This was a rare and penetrating acknowledgment of what was perhaps his greatest achievement.
1789 wurde Elisabeth schwanger, ihr Zustand war jedoch sehr instabil, nicht zuletzt verursacht durch die Unruhe wegen des sich ständig verschlechternden Gesundheitszustands von Kaiser Joseph. Nachdem Joseph am 15. Februar 1790 die letzte Ölung empfangen hatte, wollte Elisabeth ihn besuchen; bis dahin war ihr dies nämlich aufgrund ihres Zustands nicht gestattet worden. Um sie nicht durch seine Todesblässe zu erschrecken, ließ der Kaiser sein Krankenzimmer bei ihrem Empfang nur matt erleuchten. Dennoch war Elisabeth beim Anblick des todkranken Kaisers tief erschüttert und fiel in Ohnmacht. In der Nacht auf den 17. Februar gebar sie vorzeitig ein geistesschwaches Kind, Erzherzogin Ludovika Elisabeth, die bereits am 24. Juni 1791 starb. Elisabeth überlebte die über 24 Stunden dauernde Niederkunft nicht, bei der eine Notoperation eingeleitet wurde, um das Leben der Mutter zu retten. Sie starb am 18. Februar 1790 im Alter von nur 22 Jahren in Wien.
Joseph (who died on the 20th) not wanting to frighten her by his looks and having the room badly illuminated is yet another heartbreaking detail.
The future Pope who had to preach the sermon about Joseph at the Vatican was future Leo XII. For you and Mildred, here's the entire passage from Beales' book:
It was customary for a funeral serman to be preached at the Vatican when an emperor died. The task was entrusted to a young priest called Genga, who later became Pope Leo XII. A thick file in the archive of the Vienna nunciature shows how the text developed, or rather dwindled, in the face of criciticsm by the poope and others. It must be questionable whether any such sermon ever gave so much trouble.* Genga had brgun by trying to make the best case for Joseph as a devout Catholic reformer, adducing in his favour his repeal of some objectionable measures during his lastmonths. But almost all the favourable comments were vetoed. The result, of course, was bland and anodyne, much concerned with Joseph's fortitude on campaign and on his deathbed.
A more informative and rather striking sermon was preached in the athedral of Lucca by Christoforo Boccella in April 1790. The tiny independent republic of Lucca regarded itself as protected by the Emperor and gloried in his patronage. The preacherspoke of Joseph's tireless efforts for the benefit of his subjects, of his taking command of rescue operations when there were fires or floods in Vienna, of his extensive and clearly expressed legislation, and, most remarkably, of his having 'abolished the ill-conceived feudal system, a malign Gothic survival. Now the provinces do not groan under the burden and disgrace of servitude, which he destroyed, restoring an oppressed humanity its basic but too violated rights." This was a rare and penetrating acknowledgment of what was perhaps his greatest achievement.
Possible, but I think - I could be wrong, it's been a while since I listened to the dvd audio commentary which Peter Shaffer and Milos Forman did for "Amadeus" - Shaffer even mentioned his Joseph wasn't intended as a portrait of Joseph II, but as a recognizable "type", which was all that was needed for the play. (As I said, I might misremember! Don't quote me on this!) Though whether or not he said it, I suspect that's what it amounts to. For the main plot to work, the Emperor in the play needs to be a well meaning but none too bright royal who can be easily manipulatied by Salieri and Orsini-Rosenberg. And he's only a minor character. Peter Shaffer was prepared to argue with Margaret Thatcher about his Mozart characterisation (she told him "Mozart wasn't like that, he would never have said those things!" whereupon he sent her an English edition of Mozart's letters, which she refused to acknowledge - and he did do research for the play, but I wouldn't be surprised if said research consisted of reading Mozart (and Salieri, if available) biographies, and Mozart's letters, but nothing beyond that.
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