cahn: (Default)
cahn ([personal profile] cahn) wrote2021-06-11 08:30 am
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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 28

That is a lot of posts! :D <3
selenak: (Music)

Harold Acton: Last of the Medici 2: This is the end, my friend...

[personal profile] selenak 2021-06-16 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Now, independent from this once his father had died Cosimo had started the longest reign any Duke of Tuscany would ever have (52 years, all in all). And it was a terrible one on every level. Scientists and artists were either banished or so poorly paid they went on their own initiative. The economy became so poor that there was bartering on the streets instead of paying with coins. And bigotry ruled. Complete with old school religious antisemitism. Cosimo started to persecute Jews. He forbade Christian/Jewish marriages, forgave Christians and Jews to live in the same house together, forbade Jews to serve in Christian households and Christians to serve Jews. Any type of sexual intercourse between Christians and Jews was forbidden. Etc. And even the Christians were supposed to denounce each other for not being Christian enough if needed.

(There are, however, two examples of laws Cosimo created which our author does approve of. I quote from the book:

Youthful sinners were punished with corresponding severity: in some cases, however, one must applaud the method. Settimanni writes, in October, 1690 : 'A peasant boy between five and six years old, from the district of Pistoia, was castrated in the hospital of S. Maria Nuova, for killing a little girl of three with a stone. He had wanted to remove a medal that she wore about her neck, whence she began to scream , and he stoned her to the ground, striking her head in such wise that it killed her. Seeing that she was dead, he dragged her to a ditch , and covered her face with his clothes . For so much craftiness (malizia ) it was well judged that he should not be allowed offspring in this world, and therefore he was castrated .' Cruelty to animals was also punished in a manner we might emulate : a scoundrel was put in the pillory by the column in the market-place, with a collar and placard , ‘ for being a murderer of cats ' , and two of his dead victims were
appended on his neck .
)


Meanwhile, Cosimo also kept up on news about his ex in France, via the Tuscan emissary, who sent regular reports on Marguerite Louise. Having achieved her life goal, Marguerite Louise was a bit at a loss at what do with herself. Technically, she did stay in a nunnery. De facto, she was at Versailles most often, gambling huge sums away (which lead to regular arguments for her pension via letter with Tuscany). She had an affair with her groom. (She also hit her servants when the mood struck her. Sex or beatings, it could be either.) She bathed in the nude. (When Cosimo complained about this to Louis via envoy, Louis basically reacted with a shrug.) When the Abbess of the convent where she was living, Montmartre, had died and a new Abbess was appointed, the new Abbess tried to lay down the law. Fat chance. Marguerite Louise threatened to kill her with a hatchet and a pistol. In the end, an agreement with Cosimo and Louis was reached that Marguerite Louise would move to a new convent (Sainte Mande).

For a while, Marguerite Louise had kept up correspondence with her oldest son, Ferdinando when he'd become a rebellious teen writing her letters, and once when Cosimo became ill she told everyone at Versailles it wasn't Tuscany she'd hated, only her husband, and immediately after his death she would "she would fly to Florence to banish all hypocrites and hypocrisy and establish a new government". In the end, Cosimo outlived her, but Marguerite Louise never stopped surprising people till her end. Having moved to Sainte-Mande, she declared it a "spiritual brothel" in need of reform, and she had a point; there were five or six nuns with illegitimate kids and several lovers, and the Abess was present only some months in the year and with her lover otherwise. Marguerite Louise threw herself into her last transformation into a sincere reformer, overhauled the convent, kicked out the Abess and the wayward nuns and next threw herself into charity. She had two strokes which partially incapacitated her, and by then, Louis was dead and Philippe d'Orleans Regent. In another surprising turn of events, the aging Marguerite Louise had become pals with his mother, Liselotte, and so Philippe allowed her to buy a house in Paris and live out her live there, which she did.

As for her children. The oldest, Ferdinando, had some of the good Medici gifts of old - he was a musician and composer, and openly bisexual (this included an affair with a castrato and with a hot musician, but he also had female lovers). Cosimo, despite all evidence to the contrary thinking marriage was just the thing, and argueing with this rebellious son all the time, much like FW insisted him marrying. A very nice girl, as it happened, Violante of Bavaria, who was devoted him. Alas, Ferdinando found her dull and didn't requite her feelings. (Stop me if this sounds familiar.) During his regular trips to Venice, he managed to get infected with syphilis, and not the type to stop at stage 2. He died of it, eventually.

This made brother Gian Gastone the heir, though Dad Cosimo also tried to heighten his chances by making his own younger brother, the frolicking playboy Cardinal (remember him) leave the clergy and marry. His brother did that, and promptly died. Gian Gastone (named after his scheming French grandfather Gaston d'Orleans) had been married at Dad Cosimo's orders in Ferdinando's life time already since it was evidence that tertiary syphilis suffering Ferdinando would never rule. (And had no children by Violante.) With an unerring instinct, Cosimo's wife of choice for Gian Gastone was.... Anna Maria Franziska of Saxe-Lauenburg, in Bohemia. She'd already been married and widowed. This may have given her the self confidence to do absolutely NOT what either her husband or his father wanted. Gian Gastone had travelled to Osnabrück to marry her there and had expected to return with her to Tuscany forthwith. Instead, she insisted they'd go to her estate in Bohemia. He hated it there and found it deadly borin. She was a passionate horsewoman and into agriculture, and they shared absolutely nothing. He attempted to flee to Paris; Dad ordered him back. He also ordered Franziska to come to Tuscany, but fat chance. She stayed where she was, and where she made the rules and had the power. Gian Gastone started to drink, massively, and became an alcoholic who was rarely seen sober for the rest of his life. He also gambled away huge sums of money in Prague. Cosimo enlisted the help of the Pope to order his daughter in law to come to Tuscany with her husband, but she only said there was no point, since Gian Gastone was impotent in addition to being a useless gambling drunk. At which point Cosimo III. caved and allowd Gian Gastone to come home alone.

By now, it was glaringly obvious to Cosimo that he had a succession problem. One son dying of syphilis, the other impotent according to his wife, drinking himself to death and staring up to the stars (he did that, it was a thing). He tried to petition that his daughter, who'd been married to the Elector Palatine, would be allowed to succeed. But alas.

Charles VI, HRE: Cosimo, my friend, let me point out two things for you. Firstly, the Palatinate is a principality within the HRE, which means I'm your daughter's husband's boss, and I decide about any additional title any of my Electors get. Secondly, and as importantaly, do you remember why Tuscany is a duchy now? Which it sure as hell was not in the days of Lorenzo the Magnificent? Because my ancestor Charles V. took the quondam Republic of Florence and made it into the Duchy of Tuscany, appointing your ancestor its Duke. You know, when his troops were in Italy and Rome got sacked and the Florentines debated either letting child!Catherine de' Medici be raped by the troops or put her out in a cage in front of the city walls so Charles' canons would hit her. Those days. Anyway, since your ancestor from the younger Medici line accepted Tuscany as a Duchy from the hands of the Holy Roman Emperor, it means any Duke of Tuscany is the vassal of the HRE and if your dynasty is about to die out, well, I've got an idea...

Cosimo: I hate you. How about I pick Don Carlos, son of Elisabetta Farnese, Queen of Spain and of Philip V. instead?
Charles VI (having spent years of his life fighting Philip V.) : I don't think so.

Cosimo dies. Gian Gastone ascends, the literal last of the Medici, save for his sister. He's so drunk all the time that he throws up out of his chaise when carried through Florence, so he rarely is. At meals he's not better - vomiting into his napkin, wiping his mouth with his periwig. But: he immediately gets rid of the anti-Jewish and anti-Protestant laws his father had made, threw out corrupt churchmen from the government, and revoked the banishment of "new" (i.e. Galilelean) ideas from the university of Pisa. He also separated Medici property from state property, being aware that despite his efforts, neither his sister nor Don Carlos would succeed him, and this way his sister could at least inherit the family posessions. Amazingly given thie condition he already was in by the time he took over, he managed a reign of 13 years before his alcoholilsm at last killed him. Because of his reforms, he was sincerely mourned. But the story of the Medici was over for good.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Harold Acton: Last of the Medici 2: This is the end, my friend...

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-06-18 04:52 pm (UTC)(link)
Scientists and artists were either banished or so poorly paid they went on their own initiative. The economy became so poor that there was bartering on the streets instead of paying with coins. And bigotry ruled.

Man, I can see where all the anti-Italy diatribes came from. I know when Algarotti's bitching about Florence (1733), Cosimo's dead and Duke Gian Gastone is drinking himself to death ruling, so conditions may have improved, but I can see where you'd still be making comparisons.

She bathed in the nude. (When Cosimo complained about this to Louis via envoy, Louis basically reacted with a shrug.)

Ha!

the new Abbess tried to lay down the law. Fat chance. Marguerite Louise threatened to kill her with a hatchet and a pistol. In the end, an agreement with Cosimo and Louis was reached that Marguerite Louise would move to a new convent (Sainte Mande).

Good god, this book was not boring, was it!

Alas, Ferdinando found her dull and didn't requite her feelings. (Stop me if this sounds familiar.)

Wow, it's almost like bad ideas are bad!

During his regular trips to Venice, he managed to get infected with syphilis, and not the type to stop at stage 2. He died of it, eventually.

This also sounds sadly familiar.

drinking himself to death and staring up to the stars (he did that, it was a thing)

This whole write-up was full of gems.

At meals he's not better - vomiting into his napkin, wiping his mouth with his periwig.

Yeah, I saw this on Wikipedia when I was tracking down this book for you. I figured it meant a book on the last of the Medici might at least not be dull as dirt.

But: he immediately gets rid of the anti-Jewish and anti-Protestant laws his father had made, threw out corrupt churchmen from the government, and revoked the banishment of "new" (i.e. Galilelean) ideas from the university of Pisa. He also separated Medici property from state property, being aware that despite his efforts, neither his sister nor Don Carlos would succeed him, and this way his sister could at least inherit the family posessions. Amazingly given thie condition he already was in by the time he took over, he managed a reign of 13 years before his alcoholilsm at last killed him. Because of his reforms, he was sincerely mourned.

Wow. Definitely a mixed bag.

I didn't know anything about the Medici in this period before this week except that they died out and FS and Don Carlos had claims, so this was definitely instructive and...entertaining, in a train-wrecky sort of way. Thanks for filling in another gap for us, O Royal Reader!
selenak: (Default)

Re: Harold Acton: Last of the Medici 2: This is the end, my friend...

[personal profile] selenak 2021-06-19 12:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Man, I can see where all the anti-Italy diatribes came from.

Well yes. Especially since Cosimo III. had over fifty years to run down the place. Not in the manner one usually imagines, i.e by promiscuity and endless parties. The only sensual feeling he ever gratified was gluttony. Incidentally, the contrast to FW is interesting, in that they were both fundamentalist Christians of their respective faiths, but FW was actually good at economy and motivating his people to adopt at least part of his mentality (he wasn't loved, but it's impossible to deny that Brandenburg/Prussia pre and post FW was not the same anymore - he made (nearly) the entire nobility and the citizens drink the LOYALTY DUTY DISCIPLINE MILITARY WORK WORK WORK Kool-Aid) - , while Cosimo just made himself hated, and no one adopted his personal ethics and mode of life.

Now of course, Italy isn't Tuscany, but it's worth noting that those 18th century travellers from other countries who unlike Algarotti loved it there also tended to pick Venice, Rome (Goethe) or Naples (Anna Amalia) as their favourite cities to stay longer. Not Florence, not until the 19th century, when it had truly recovered, courtesy not least of Leopold.

Bathing in the nude: I should have added "in the river". Since, see a famous story about Émilie, French ladies bathing in the nude in their own bath tub was par the course. Anyway, Louis was still "not my problem" when Cosimo complained.

I didn't know anything about these last Medici before, either, so thank you so much for pointing me their way!
selenak: (Default)

Re: Harold Acton: Last of the Medici 2: This is the end, my friend...

[personal profile] selenak 2021-06-23 07:48 am (UTC)(link)
Cruelty to animals was also punished in a manner we might emulate

lol, tell us how you really feel, Acton!


He's writing in 1932 and therefore feels free to share his opinions. Obviously I can't condone the castration of kids, even youthful psychos, but making animal tormentors and killers stand in a public square with their victims around their necks, hmmmmm.....

Heh, I'm sensing a theme: no one can tell Marguerite Louise what to do!

That is certainly the disputable motto of her life!

this kiiinda makes me wonder if he was suffering from some other problem that the alcohol was self-medication for.

Well, if you're gay, your father is the ultimate bigot of Italy and your rebellious mother not only is far away but never seems to have showed much interest in your existence - the one time Gian Gastone saw Marguerite Louise was when he was trying to do a runner from his marriage to Paris and Dad ordered him to go back, and while the two did meet, it was a short meeting, and there was no correspondence afterwards, as there had none been before - I'd say you hit the ground running in the emotional ballast stakes. Add to this a marriage of mutual loathing with orders to reproduce (and since the wife you don't want and who doesn't want you had a child from her previous marriage, Dad KNOWS she's fertile and it must be you) and a country where everyone is a stranger except for the hot teenager you brought along, well...

And let's not forget the sheer amount of time Cosimo ruled. If Gian Gastone had had the chance to rule himself as a young man, then it might have been different, but by the time he achieved power, his self destructive life style was truly set in stone.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Harold Acton: Last of the Medici 2: This is the end, my friend...

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-06-27 05:19 pm (UTC)(link)
And let's not forget the sheer amount of time Cosimo ruled. If Gian Gastone had had the chance to rule himself as a young man, then it might have been different, but by the time he achieved power, his self destructive life style was truly set in stone.

This is exactly what teenage runaway Fritz was afraid of. Sure, FW was unhealthy, but he lived another 10 years (when you're 18 and at the mercy of your abuser, that's a lot already!) and if he'd lived as long as 3 of his 4 sons, or Cosimo, Fritz could have been in his 50s when old Dad finally kicked the bucket, like Gian Gastone was.

I doubt Fritz would have taken to drink with his father's example plus his own personality, but good god...
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Harold Acton: Last of the Medici 2: This is the end, my friend...

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-06-24 11:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Okay, I know much less about alcohol than the average person for obvious reasons, and I know that vomiting hangovers are a thing of course, but is it really a thing for drunks to throw up *that* much? That is to say, this kiiinda makes me wonder if he was suffering from some other problem that the alcohol was self-medication for.

A few observations.

1. What Selena said, about his life being the sort that could lead someone to self-medicate for depression and anxiety.

2. Even before the heavy drinking started, he was showing signs of depression: staying up all night and sleeping during the day, isolating himself, and crying nonstop.

For the young Prince would spend whole hours a -weeping in his chamber, cultivating his misery. Perchance, like Rasselas, he was unwilling to cloud with his presence the happiness of others. In the Middle Ages they would have said he was visited by the daemon meridianus: he had all the symptoms of Acedia, that mysterious disease of the will and compound of boredom, sorrow
and despair.


In the late twentieth and twenty-first centuries, we would say "depression."

In the early twentieth century, Acton writes:

His almost pathological love of solitude, so un-Latin a trait (as Norman Douglas has remarked ), his noctambulous habits, suggested a streak of insanity.

Yes, sleeping all day and self-isolation are symptoms of depression, to translate that into something with more science and less stigma.

3. Though Selena, when summarizing, wrote, "He's so drunk all the time that he throws up out of his chaise when carried through Florence, so he rarely is. At meals he's not better - vomiting into his napkin, wiping his mouth with his periwig,"

a more precise summary of Acton would be: "He was drunk all the time, and vomited on public occasions."

The banquets are part of his sister-in-law's attempts to distract him from the Ruspanti, but he drinks at the banquets, and, says Acton,

At one of them, says the chronicler — probably at Lappeggi— many Florentines of the first quality were present, and the Grand Duke's tongue was so unloosed by wine that it uttered the foulest words imaginable, as his head wagged heavily to and fro and lolled upon his shoulders. In the middle of it all he disgorged into his napkin, and anon, as he continued to shock the company with constant belching and atrocious talk, he puked again, and wiped his mouth with the tumbling curls of his periwig, which was much disordered.

That implies--with the caveat that we're at a couple removes from a firsthand account here--that the vomiting at dinner was an exception.

Then there's this:

There had been many rumours of his lying on the verge of death ; he was persuaded against his will to emerge and dispel them at the festival of St John the Baptist.

He drank heavily to fortify himself for the occasion: Bacchus, he felt, would lend him a protective armour to meet the gaze of his subjects, that scrutiny he dreaded. It were well to skate over the rest how the inebriated Grand Duke, as he was driven in gala through the streets of Florence, turned now and again to vomit out of the chariot window.


Given that he probably suffers from depression, and has been isolating himself most of his life, he may suffer from social anxiety. Again, I'm not sure where Acton is getting "to fortify himself" and "the scrutiny he dreaded" from, if that's his interpretation or if that's in his sources, and if it is in his sources, is it an accurate reflection of what was going on in Gian Gastone's head?

But one possible reading here is:
- Dad was abusive, Mom was neglectful, marriage was unhappy.
- Depression, anxiety, and self-esteem issues ensued.
- Self-medication with alcohol and sex followed.
- Self-medication with alcohol increased in stressful situations, such as on public occasions.

There may have been a physical problem. I can't rule it out. But FW was probably self-medicating with alcohol for his physical problems (and ironically exacerbating them), and he managed to go out in public. Gian Gastone strikes me as that psychological profile where instead of turning trauma out on other people (cycle of abuse) like, say, Fritz, he turns it inward (incapacitation through depression).

In conclusion, I think the amount of vomiting is proportionate to the amount of drinking here, and Selena's right about the emotional baggage.

The Regent d'Orléans, wrote Saint-Simon, was bored with himself from birth. He sought relief in wine and witty women; vice with him was neither passion nor fashion, but the tiresome habit of a tired man. Substitute Ruspanti for witty women, and the same applies to the last Grand Duke of the Medici.

By the time I got to this in my skimming (I'm now doing an actual readthrough), I was nodding because I'd already come to this conclusion. Alcohol and sex sound less enjoyable and more an attempt at therapy via escapism for Gian Gastone.

(This is also why I thought maybe the alcoholism was at least partially self-medication; it sounds like he actually got some things done in between bouts of vomiting or drunkenness or whatever.)

He used to wake up late, hold court from bed, invite the Ruspanti in, get increasingly drunk throughout the evening/night, and go to sleep sometime in the wee hours of the morning. I imagine the things that got done happened first thing in the "morning," before he got too drunk. I also suspect there was a lot of delegating; i.e. him making the decision and someone else actually making it happen. So it might not have been all that time-consuming to go, "Yeah, that stupid law? That's revoked. Also the other one. Make it so."

/back next week!

Yay!

(Where are [personal profile] gambitten and [personal profile] prinzsorgenfrei?? ;) )
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-07-13 12:47 am (UTC)(link)
He used to wake up late, hold court from bed, invite the Ruspanti in, get increasingly drunk throughout the evening/night, and go to sleep sometime in the wee hours of the morning. I imagine the things that got done happened first thing in the "morning," before he got too drunk. I also suspect there was a lot of delegating; i.e. him making the decision and someone else actually making it happen. So it might not have been all that time-consuming to go, "Yeah, that stupid law? That's revoked. Also the other one. Make it so."

So I found another visitor who saw Gian Gastone in his bedridden years and wrote about it: Pöllnitz, 1731! Furthermore, the exact schedule, down to the hour, given by Acton is in Pöllnitz, as well as the observation that GG dined often alone and always in bed. Now, since everyone agrees bedridden GG's life was pretty much the same for the rest of his life ("The history of one day is the history of a year," in Acton's words), these habits may have been reported in multiple places (and I'm sure they were), but I'm thinking Pöllnitz is one of Acton's sources. Check out the linguistic similarity:

Acton:

The Grand Duke's levee was at noon, when those who had business with him were summoned to his bedchamber. He constantly dined at five o'clock in the evening, and supped at two in the morning. He always ate alone, and generally in bed.

Pöllnitz:

His Levee is not till Noon, and then he sends for such as he has Business with to his Bedchamber...He dines at Five o'Clock in the Evening, and sups at Two in the Morning: He always eats alone, commonly in his Bed.

Pöllnitz also confirms my guess that GG's "productivity" in revoking various laws was mostly a matter of making a decision and then saying "Make it so":

I thought that the Grand Duke would be very much taken up with his Ministers;
but I was soon inform'd that he left all Matters intirely to the Management of his Ministers.


The encounter between Pöllnitz and GG has its moments:

Pöllnitz: Well, the Grand Duke is supposed to be completely inaccessible, so I suppose there's no chance I'll ever get to see him. Oh well! I'll go pay my respects to his sister, the Electress.

*As he is leaving the Electress' apartments*

Valet: Sir, the Grand Duke very much wants to see you!

Pöllnitz: Me? No, I'm just a traveling German, he can't possibly want to see me. You must have me confused with someone else!

Valet: No, he definitely said you. You're Baron Pöllnitz, right?

Pöllnitz: Yeeess...but perhaps there is some other Baron Pöllnitz in the neighborhood? I mean, he's impossible to talk to, why on earth would he pick me out of everyone? I just got here the other day!

Valet: No, no, no, I see where you're coming from now, but the impossible to talk to part only applies to Floretines! He likes Germans. Germans are his fave! He developed a taste for them in Prague. Don't worry, you're about 3 times too old for his taste. But for totally platonic reasons, he totally wants to see you. [Okay, the valet didn't say all this, I'm interpolating based on other things Pöllnitz said elsewhere in the text plus things we know. But Pöllnitz definitely took some convincing that he was really the one GG wanted to see.]

Pöllnitz: Oh, okay. If you're sure.

Pöllnitz arriving in GG's chamber: Hmm, there are lapdogs everywhere, his clothes are smeared in snuff, it smells terrible...

[Mildred: Get used to it. It's practice for later.]

GG: Hey, Pöllnitz, how come you didn't want to come visit me? I'm playfully offended. I knew your dad! How are things in Berlin these days? Tell me about all the changes since I was there.

Pöllnitz: Well, let's see, F1 was in charge when you were there, and it's now 1731, meaning FW is hitting his peak, so...how much time you got?

GG: Oh, hey, speaking of the time, I know 2 pm is way too early to be drinking, but I'm an alcoholic, and I've got some awesome alcohol I want you to taste. Have a dram!

Pöllnitz: Thank you, I'm deeply honored, but the thing is, I never drink drams, and-

GG: But it is the age of monarchs forcing visitors to drink! Have a dram. I'll have one too. Have another dram. Have a third dram! I'll match you drink for drink.

Pöllnitz: Mercy, mercy! [Literally: "I was just going to fall at his Knees, and to beg Quarter, when, as good Luck would have it, Joannino [sic!] his favourite Valet de Chambre came in, and whisper'd something in his Ear."]

GG: Okay, you can go, and have fun, but don't leave Florence without saying goodbye. I mean it!

Pöllnitz: And then I went back to my inn and GG had sent me enough food and drink for 3 months. Have fun indeed!

And then the Ruspanti! Allow me to explain the Ruspanti. They are "Pensioners of the Grand Duke," which is a euphemism the likes of which won't be seen again until Peter Keith has to leave his post at Wesel "due to circumstances."

They consist of all Nations, but of Germans more than any other. They wear no Livery, nor are they all clad alike, and they are only known by their Locks, which are always very much curld and powder'd.

Did I mention the Duke likes Germans? Getting to pay him a bedroom visit is

an Honour which the Florentines don't easily attain to, for he seems to be fondest of the German Nation, whose Language he speaks well, and pretends even to know its various Dialects.

Mildred: Hey, that might explain Knobelsdorff getting in as well!]

GG: Okay, come say goodbye!

Pöllnitz: We talked for 3 hours on a thousand subjects, and then I left Florence, where, if the Grand Duke ever had sex, you will not know about it from reading my account. At first Mildred wondered if the editor had done some redacting, but since the book was published in 1737, it seems less likely.

*

If you're inspired to check out Pöllnitz's other travel anecdotes, including his opinions of FW and FW's ministers, volumes 1 and 2 are now in the library.

Btw, note that Pöllnitz was in Italy in 1730-1731, so anything he writes about Katte and 1730 he must have gotten from elsewhere (though he was in Berlin in 1729, so he could just have met Katte), and as we've seen, Wilhelmine must have been a significant part of "elsewhere."

ETA: Though not cited for the passage I mentioned, Pöllnitz is mentioned once in the main text of Acton and is in the bibliography, so he's definitely one of the sources Acton is drawing on.
Edited 2021-07-13 01:29 (UTC)
felis: (House renfair)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] felis 2021-07-13 11:54 am (UTC)(link)
Huh, this was unexpected! Pöllnitz sure gets around. (And he likes to tell anecdotes, so I feel like I should take anything he says with a grain of salt when it comes to embellishments? Not sure.)

But it is the age of monarchs forcing visitors to drink!

Seriously! What is it with that. But, you know, since Pöllnitz occasionally attended the Tobacco Parliament (or maybe only in the later 30s?), he really should have been used to that.

Mildred: Hey, that might explain Knobelsdorff getting in as well!

Possibly. He says all foreigners had an easier time than the locals, but who knows, maybe being German helped him as well. I feel like he wasn't exactly the right temperament for GG, though, and he sure didn't seem prone to embellishments.

And I see that you got an English version of the memoirs. I actually had a look at a German version quite some time ago, but gave up after a couple of pages, because damn, that was work and I was lacking context. Seems like the translation is somewhat easier.
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-07-15 12:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh, this was unexpected!

Ha, in hindsight, I was thinking it shouldn't have been--what is Pöllnitz known for, after all, if not traveling and accruing stories?

But, you know, since Pöllnitz occasionally attended the Tobacco Parliament (or maybe only in the later 30s?), he really should have been used to that.

My thoughts exactly!

I feel like he wasn't exactly the right temperament for GG, though

Myeah, no, does not seem like it. I'll believe Pöllnitz was more his type. Also, when Knobelsdorff was there, GG was dying, so may have been miserable enough that no good stories were going to happen.

And I see that you got an English version of the memoirs. I actually had a look at a German version quite some time ago, but gave up after a couple of pages, because damn, that was work and I was lacking context. Seems like the translation is somewhat easier.

I mean, even with the English version, which I found a couple years ago, I looked at it and had no context for who any of these people were, so I set it down again. Then I ran into it again this week, and did some skimming, and was like, "Hey, I know who this person is, and also this one, and also this one--I should check these out again!"

We'll see if I end up with the time, but they're back on my radar now.

Wilhelmine was similiar, in that I did read v. 1 of her memoirs at the beginning of salon because I obviously knew who her immediate family were, but the reread a year later took me from "Manteuffel who?" to "Oh, Manteuffel the silver fox!" :P
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-07-17 06:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh HUH, maybe I should pick these up again!

Volume 1 definitely improves on rereading! Especially now that Selena has told us about the bonkers Clement episode. I'm looking forward to rereading in French so I can pick up on even more things than I did when I read it in German.

Volume 2 is boring no matter what. :P Read the beginning and end (at least through Christmas 1732) and let the middle go.
selenak: (Royal Reader)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] selenak 2021-07-13 03:56 pm (UTC)(link)
Allow me to explain the Ruspanti. They are "Pensioners of the Grand Duke," which is a euphemism the likes of which won't be seen again until Peter Keith has to leave his post at Wesel "due to circumstances."

LOL. Briefly browsing through the volumes, I can see Pöllnitz' general tendency when writing about the courts he visited is to do so with a policy of "I want to be invited there again and not piss off the ruling monarch". I mean, if you write that "all of Saxony" applauded A3 appointing Sulkowski & Brühl, you're clearly not going for Watergate type of reporting. Though some of his compliments can be, if one squints interpreted as maaaaaybe tongue in cheek, as when he says SD inherited all of her father G1's wonderful qualities that made him so universally beloved. Ahem.

This said, he might have been censored by his British translator and/or editor, given the prefaces which do a bit of moralizing, as in: "es, it can't be denied Pöllnitz was a Catholic when writing these volumes! But he wasn't as stupid and evil and superstitious and intriguing as Catholics generally are, he's since seen the light as FW offered him a job, and now is a proper enlightened Protestant!" Or, where Pöllnitz sounds sympathetic about Countess Cosel being currently locked up with nothing else to do but to ponder the change of her fortunes, the waspish editor/translator adds a footnote saying she only has herself to blame for her fate, it was self defense on August's part! Also "we have received news" that she was released. (Fake news, clearly.)

Of interest to us: Pöllnitz writes admiringly about the Countess Orzelska that he only saw her in "Amazonian" wardrobe, i.e. dressed as a man, and that she makes an extremely dashing, handsome guy. I was wondering where all the "Orzelska loved dressing up in male wardrobe" from more novelistic treatments of Fritz' youth hails from.

Also described as quite the looker: recently retired Manteuffel, PRIVATE citizen: He is pretty tall, well set, has a grand Air, and is one of the handsomest Men that I have seen .
His Behaviour is noble and easy , he has a good Fund of Learning, an extraordinary Memory , and
such a Happiness of expressing himself that when he talks he never fails to give Pleasure.


And Pöllnitz finally tells me how the Hoym who is Manteuffel's arch nemesis is related to the Hoym who was married to Cosel before August's eye fell on her - they were brothers. No time to read more for now, alas, But I'm glad, Mildred, you read and summarized the Gian Gastone encounter and pointed us towards the volumes!
Edited 2021-07-13 15:58 (UTC)
selenak: (DuncanAmanda - Kathyh)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] selenak 2021-07-15 05:50 pm (UTC)(link)
Poelnitz votes that the woman who may or may not have deflowered Fritz was definitely hot!

The Countess of Orzelka, who was born at Warsaw , of one Renard a French Woman, and bred up in the Roman Catholic Faith : She is of a good Stature, and very charming. Of all the late King's legitimated Children his Majesty seem 'd to be fond est of this. She was at first very much neglected , and it did not appear that the King ever intended to
own her. But Count Rotofski seeing her at War saw in a Plight too mean for her Birth took the freedom to mention her to the King her Father , and told him that she merited some Kindness from him.
The King thereupon desir' d to see her, and she came into his Presence in the Amazonian Habit, which was her favourite Dress. The King thought she resembled him very much, and not being able to resist the tender Impressions of Nature he embrac'd her, and callid her his Daughter. At the same time he order'd the whole Court to acknownledge her in that Quality, gave her a magnificent Palace , with Diamonds without number, and settled great Pensions on her . ' Tis certain , in short, that never was Daughter more like her Father ; she had the same Features, Temper and Genius. It was impossible for her to be handsomer with a more grand Air , She is fond of Magnificence, Expence , and Pleasures, One of her Diversions is to dress in Mens Apparel. It was in this Habit that I saw her the first time, when she was on horseback , in a pur ple Habit embroider 'd with Silver , and wore the blue Ribband of Poland. Being all alone, I could not learn who she was, but really took her to be some young Foreign Nobleman whom I had not yet seen. I never beheld any body fit better than she did on horseback , or have a more amiable Air ; insomuch , that many Ladies Ladies would have been glad of a Lover so handsome. The same evening I saw her at the Ball, where she was still dress'd like a Man, only her Habit was more rich than it was in the morning, and her dishevelld Locks of Hair hung down in fine Curls about her Shoulders ; so that Cupid himself was not more tempting when he appear'd before Psyche. Her goed Mien , and the graceful Air with which I saw her dance a Minuet, made me inquire who this pretty Youth was ? Count Rotofski, who overheard me, made answer, The young Man whom you admire wou'd do you no great harm if you were a Woman, but may posibly hurt you as the Case stands ; but come along with me, continued he, taking me by the Hand, I will make him known to you , then leave you to come off with him as well as you can, I guess’d by these Words that the Person he was going to usher me to was the Countess Orzelska ; and I was confirmed in my Suspicion when I heard Count Rotofski say to her, "Sister , here is a Gentleman who has all due Respects for you, and whom I'll engage will be ready to serve you in whatever you shall require of him . Madamoiselle Orzelska smiling at this Discourse , I saluted her with all the Respect which I ow 'd to her Rank.


BTW, had another quick look, and Pöllnitz, who passed through Bayreuth before Wilhelmine got there, confirms that the Old Margrave for austerity reasons (his own father had been a big spender) really let the place go down. I've always wondered whether or not she exaggarated in her first impressions. Now, Pöllnitz loves splendor so he's hardly unbiased, but he does write this early description independent from her and he also describes it as a shabby hellhole. Wilhelmine and her own Margrave later got accused on spending far too much money on buildings, but, well, there was a certain need, it seems...

selenak: (Default)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] selenak 2021-07-16 08:37 am (UTC)(link)
Well, if anyone would consider it sexy to have an affair with a younger female self, it would be a baroque prince like August the Strong!

Mind you, between this and "SD has inherited all of G1's wonderful qualities!" I'm sideeying Pöllnitz' propensity to consider "she's like her Dad!" as a compliment and losing hope it could be sarcasm in SD's case. Otoh, Orzelska being hot is treated as fact in other sources as well, and if she looked like a dashing young man in her "Amazonian habit" it certainly enhances the likelhood of her being young Fritz' first sexual experience!

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] felis - 2021-07-20 11:17 (UTC) - Expand
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-07-15 12:25 pm (UTC)(link)
Though some of his compliments can be, if one squints interpreted as maaaaaybe tongue in cheek, as when he says SD inherited all of her father G1's wonderful qualities that made him so universally beloved. Ahem.

Uhhh, I choose to believe that was tongue-in-cheek, because otherwise--WHAT??

he's since seen the light as FW offered him a job, and now is a proper enlightened Protestant!"

[personal profile] cahn, Pöllnitz is the one Fritz is reported as having teased with, "If I pay you, will you change your religion a fifth time? Come on, the first four times weren't that hard, and you're getting paid!"

Of interest to us: Pöllnitz writes admiringly about the Countess Orzelska that he only saw her in "Amazonian" wardrobe, i.e. dressed as a man, and that she makes an extremely dashing, handsome guy. I was wondering where all the "Orzelska loved dressing up in male wardrobe" from more novelistic treatments of Fritz' youth hails from.

Oh, nice find! I knew I wanted to point you to these memoirs. :D

No time to read more for now, alas

Your loyal readers will hold you to the "for now"! :)
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-07-17 06:45 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't remember that bit, but I could easily be forgetting!
mildred_of_midgard: (Default)

Re: Pöllnitz and Gian Gastone

[personal profile] mildred_of_midgard 2021-07-16 08:51 pm (UTC)(link)
Also described as quite the looker: recently retired Manteuffel

So, funnily enough, after telling us that Other Seckendorff wrote that

Mantteuffel - le Diable - reports that Fritz after dinner after showing him 'all the tendernesses imaginable', took him into his room afterwards and there confided in him about this family,

...you asked:

So did he have sex with Mantteuffel, and do we count Mantteuffel among the boyfriends or the witty pretties?

To which my reaction was, "Not to be ageist, but he is 60 and Fritz is 24..."

But now that I know he was still quite a looker in the 1730s, I have adjusted my assessment of the odds. :P