Increasingly unpopular Catholic James II loses his throne in England. His daughter Mary and her husband William of Orange become Mary II and William III, or "William and Mary.
I think it's worth pointing out the religious situation of James' various children to cahn, and how this impacts the English succession, not to mention that the story contains some gossipy sensationalism.
So, James: second son of the executed Charles I., shared exile with brother Charles the future II, returns with Charles when the Restoration happens - and almost immediately afterwards gets Anne Hyde pregnant, who is the daughter of Charles' Chancellor, Sir Edward Hyde.
Gossip: Aha! Scheming Vizir alert! Guess that guy has his eyes on the succession!
Gossip: *is dead wrong, but fits the climate of the times. When Charles' marriage with Catherine of Braganza won't produce any living offspring, while Charles has illegitimate children galore, Anne's father will be accused by gossip of having matched Charles knowingly to an infertile woman, which is absolutely insane*
Meanwhile, James: I don't want to marry a girl I got pregnant ahead of marriage anyway. She's not worthy of me.
Sam Pepys, Diarist, chronicler of the era, records this quote in his diary: "A man doesn't put on a hat he shat in."
Charles II: You're marrying the girl. I'm famous for my lack of morals in other things, but I actually draw the line here. Considering I like women out of bed as well as in it.
James: marries Anne Hyde teeth clenched. They have an unhappy marriage which for the purpose of this summary produces two living and surviving daughters, Mary and Anne, both, and this is important, raised Protestant.
James: becomes a Catholic. There is much upset, but after years and years of to-ing and thro-ing, Parliament is still willing to accept him as next in the succession, precisely because both his surviving offspring remain Protestant. Both daughters get married to impeccably Protestant chaps, Mary to her cousin William of Orange (son of Charles' and James' dead sister), and Anne to Prince George of Denmark.
Anne Hyde: Dies.
James: remarries, this time a Catholic Italian Duchess, Mary of Modena
Brits: Not happy, but, see above.
Mary of Modena: has babies, including, eventually, a boy, another James, who, unlike his older half sisters, is baptized a Catholic.
Charles: dies.
James: is now a Catholic King of a country convinced he'll go Mary Tudor on them. So far, people could tell themselves that it would only be temporary because after James, there are two Protestant daughters with their Protestant husbands lined up. But a male heir takes precedent over a female heir, meaning that not only do they have a Catholic King but next in line would also be a Catholic. Unless....
"Glorious Revolution"/Dutch Takeover of Britain: happens.
And James and the Catholic part of the Stuarts go into exile. Now, the next problem is that Mary and William have no living offspring, either. Younger sister Anne (the one from "The Favourite") has had lots of babies, most of whom die at birth or not too long thereafter, and the one kid who makes it beyond toddlerdom dies age 10 or thereabouts. Which means James the Catholic half brother still would inherit. Unless....
Parliament: creates an act forbidding any Catholics ever on the throne and putting it in writing that only Protestants can inherit, and specifically, Protestants who descend from...
Sophie of Hannover: Me! As daughter of the Elizabeth Stuart the Winter Queen, first cousin to Charles II. and James II., I'm the next Protestant heir. Of course, we could have gotten there faster and without any James interludes if I'd married Cousin Charles back in the day when he was an exile and broke and I was the youngest daughter of a large family, but there you go.
Anne: I grudgingly accept this, but no Hannovers ever will enter this realm while I am still alive. Especially not Sophie.
FW: I would like to point out that I am an descendant of Grandma Sophie, as was, of course, my wife, and through us all subsequent Hohenzollerns. If William of Orange had only adopted me, you could have been ruled by us instead of the cousins, Britain! Think of what you've missed!
The Imperial Diet obligingly ratifies the status of Hanover as an electorate. I'm honestly so used to thinking of them as electors I hadn't realized it was this late a development!
Oh, I only realised this when reading the Sophie biography by Barbara Beuys, too, because the campaign to get recognized as Electors is of course a big part. (And part of the deal when future F1 marries Sophie Charlotte, i.e. he promises to support the "Hannover for Elector!" campaign once he's Elector of Brandenburg.)
Elector George/G1 did not like Eugene of Savoy at all, and that his son the Crown Prince/future G2 served with Eugene for a while solely to annoy his father! Then there's a footnote by the author to the effect of, "Well, at least one of my sources interprets the evidence that way."
I choose to believe.
It sure as hell sounds like them! Would also fit with G2 ranting in Hervey's earshot during the Philipsburg campaign of how HE would be the natural leader and successor to Eugene once the old boy kicks it or becomes otherwise incapacitated, but he can't be there, and stupid brother-in-law FW is, and IT IS JUST NOT FAIR.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
I think it's worth pointing out the religious situation of James' various children to [personal profile] cahn, and how this impacts the English succession, not to mention that the story contains some gossipy sensationalism.
...I am feeling seen :P :D Why yes, I am still in this for the gossipy sensationalism, thank you for indulging me :D
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
You're most welcome! Have some more entertaining gossipy quotes. Charles II, always good for a quip, about Anne's husband, George of Denmark:
"I have tried him drunk, and I have tried him sober and there is nothing in him".
When James II found himself ursurped by one daughter (Mary) and her husband (William of Orange), here's what happened with his other son in law, according to wiki:
George accompanied the King's troops to Salisbury in mid-November, but other nobles and their soldiers soon deserted James for William. At each defection, George apparently exclaimed, "Est-il possible?" (Is it possible?). He abandoned James on 24 November, and sided with William."So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
Mondieu, say I. As for James' other Protestant son-in-law, William and Mary had a good marriage for their age. However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway. After Mary's death, said rumors intensified, especially since he had two male Dutch courtiers whom he favored and was close to, thereby allowing the English aristocracy to combine xenophobia and homophobia. Wiki again:
William's young protégé, Keppel, aroused more gossip and suspicion, being 20 years William's junior, strikingly handsome, and having risen from the post of a royal page to an earldom with some ease.[114] Portland wrote to William in 1697 that "the kindness which your Majesty has for a young man, and the way in which you seem to authorise his liberties ... make the world say things I am ashamed to hear."This, he said, was "tarnishing a reputation which has never before been subject to such accusations". William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
We hear you, William. Historians I think are still divided whether he simply was a childless man looking for son substitutes - remember, he was positively impressed with young FW for this reason, too -, or a gay/bi man who, once widowed, thought "to hell with caution, I'm going to have male favourites in my last years".
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
Gossip: *is dead wrong, but fits the climate of the times. When Charles' marriage with Catherine of Braganza won't produce any living offspring, while Charles has illegitimate children galore, Anne's father will be accused by gossip of having matched Charles knowingly to an infertile woman, which is absolutely insane*
Ummmmm, wow! Because... it's so easy to tell that virgins are infertile *headdesk*
Meanwhile, James: I don't want to marry a girl I got pregnant ahead of marriage anyway. She's not worthy of me.
FACEPALM FOREVER
"So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
heeeeee!
However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway.
William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
Yep, I hear you too, WIlliam. One of the fascinating things I think about all this history is that all the trash talking I thought was of modern invention... totally isn't. (Only even more so!) I mean, regardless of whether it was true about William in particular.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
Lol! Thank goodness for Selena, because I'm on a military history kick rn, sorry not sorry. :P Currently prepping my write-ups on Blenheim and Malplaquet (which, among other things, involves rereading the Malplaquet chapter in Horowski, which is one reason it's taking a few days).
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
I think it's worth pointing out the religious situation of James' various children to
So, James: second son of the executed Charles I., shared exile with brother Charles the future II, returns with Charles when the Restoration happens - and almost immediately afterwards gets Anne Hyde pregnant, who is the daughter of Charles' Chancellor, Sir Edward Hyde.
Gossip: Aha! Scheming Vizir alert! Guess that guy has his eyes on the succession!
Gossip: *is dead wrong, but fits the climate of the times. When Charles' marriage with Catherine of Braganza won't produce any living offspring, while Charles has illegitimate children galore, Anne's father will be accused by gossip of having matched Charles knowingly to an infertile woman, which is absolutely insane*
Meanwhile, James: I don't want to marry a girl I got pregnant ahead of marriage anyway. She's not worthy of me.
Sam Pepys, Diarist, chronicler of the era, records this quote in his diary: "A man doesn't put on a hat he shat in."
Charles II: You're marrying the girl. I'm famous for my lack of morals in other things, but I actually draw the line here. Considering I like women out of bed as well as in it.
James: marries Anne Hyde teeth clenched. They have an unhappy marriage which for the purpose of this summary produces two living and surviving daughters, Mary and Anne, both, and this is important, raised Protestant.
James: becomes a Catholic. There is much upset, but after years and years of to-ing and thro-ing, Parliament is still willing to accept him as next in the succession, precisely because both his surviving offspring remain Protestant. Both daughters get married to impeccably Protestant chaps, Mary to her cousin William of Orange (son of Charles' and James' dead sister), and Anne to Prince George of Denmark.
Anne Hyde: Dies.
James: remarries, this time a Catholic Italian Duchess, Mary of Modena
Brits: Not happy, but, see above.
Mary of Modena: has babies, including, eventually, a boy, another James, who, unlike his older half sisters, is baptized a Catholic.
Charles: dies.
James: is now a Catholic King of a country convinced he'll go Mary Tudor on them. So far, people could tell themselves that it would only be temporary because after James, there are two Protestant daughters with their Protestant husbands lined up. But a male heir takes precedent over a female heir, meaning that not only do they have a Catholic King but next in line would also be a Catholic. Unless....
"Glorious Revolution"/Dutch Takeover of Britain: happens.
And James and the Catholic part of the Stuarts go into exile. Now, the next problem is that Mary and William have no living offspring, either. Younger sister Anne (the one from "The Favourite") has had lots of babies, most of whom die at birth or not too long thereafter, and the one kid who makes it beyond toddlerdom dies age 10 or thereabouts. Which means James the Catholic half brother still would inherit. Unless....
Parliament: creates an act forbidding any Catholics ever on the throne and putting it in writing that only Protestants can inherit, and specifically, Protestants who descend from...
Sophie of Hannover: Me! As daughter of the Elizabeth Stuart the Winter Queen, first cousin to Charles II. and James II., I'm the next Protestant heir. Of course, we could have gotten there faster and without any James interludes if I'd married Cousin Charles back in the day when he was an exile and broke and I was the youngest daughter of a large family, but there you go.
Anne: I grudgingly accept this, but no Hannovers ever will enter this realm while I am still alive. Especially not Sophie.
FW: I would like to point out that I am an descendant of Grandma Sophie, as was, of course, my wife, and through us all subsequent Hohenzollerns. If William of Orange had only adopted me, you could have been ruled by us instead of the cousins, Britain! Think of what you've missed!
The Imperial Diet obligingly ratifies the status of Hanover as an electorate. I'm honestly so used to thinking of them as electors I hadn't realized it was this late a development!
Oh, I only realised this when reading the Sophie biography by Barbara Beuys, too, because the campaign to get recognized as Electors is of course a big part. (And part of the deal when future F1 marries Sophie Charlotte, i.e. he promises to support the "Hannover for Elector!" campaign once he's Elector of Brandenburg.)
Elector George/G1 did not like Eugene of Savoy at all, and that his son the Crown Prince/future G2 served with Eugene for a while solely to annoy his father! Then there's a footnote by the author to the effect of, "Well, at least one of my sources interprets the evidence that way."
I choose to believe.
It sure as hell sounds like them! Would also fit with G2 ranting in Hervey's earshot during the Philipsburg campaign of how HE would be the natural leader and successor to Eugene once the old boy kicks it or becomes otherwise incapacitated, but he can't be there, and stupid brother-in-law FW is, and IT IS JUST NOT FAIR.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
...I am feeling seen :P :D Why yes, I am still in this for the gossipy sensationalism, thank you for indulging me :D
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
"I have tried him drunk, and I have tried him sober and there is nothing in him".
When James II found himself ursurped by one daughter (Mary) and her husband (William of Orange), here's what happened with his other son in law, according to wiki:
George accompanied the King's troops to Salisbury in mid-November, but other nobles and their soldiers soon deserted James for William. At each defection, George apparently exclaimed, "Est-il possible?" (Is it possible?). He abandoned James on 24 November, and sided with William."So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
Mondieu, say I. As for James' other Protestant son-in-law, William and Mary had a good marriage for their age. However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway. After Mary's death, said rumors intensified, especially since he had two male Dutch courtiers whom he favored and was close to, thereby allowing the English aristocracy to combine xenophobia and homophobia. Wiki again:
William's young protégé, Keppel, aroused more gossip and suspicion, being 20 years William's junior, strikingly handsome, and having risen from the post of a royal page to an earldom with some ease.[114] Portland wrote to William in 1697 that "the kindness which your Majesty has for a young man, and the way in which you seem to authorise his liberties ... make the world say things I am ashamed to hear."This, he said, was "tarnishing a reputation which has never before been subject to such accusations". William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
We hear you, William. Historians I think are still divided whether he simply was a childless man looking for son substitutes - remember, he was positively impressed with young FW for this reason, too -, or a gay/bi man who, once widowed, thought "to hell with caution, I'm going to have male favourites in my last years".
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
I think I remember Horowski saying they're still divided, yeah.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
Gossip: *is dead wrong, but fits the climate of the times. When Charles' marriage with Catherine of Braganza won't produce any living offspring, while Charles has illegitimate children galore, Anne's father will be accused by gossip of having matched Charles knowingly to an infertile woman, which is absolutely insane*
Ummmmm, wow! Because... it's so easy to tell that virgins are infertile *headdesk*
Meanwhile, James: I don't want to marry a girl I got pregnant ahead of marriage anyway. She's not worthy of me.
FACEPALM FOREVER
"So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
heeeeee!
However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway.
William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
Yep, I hear you too, WIlliam. One of the fascinating things I think about all this history is that all the trash talking I thought was of modern invention... totally isn't. (Only even more so!) I mean, regardless of whether it was true about William in particular.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts