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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 27
Still going! :D
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Philip V and his wives
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mildred_of_midgard
2021-05-17 11:12 pm (UTC)(link)
When Charles II dies, Philip V is the Duc d'Anjou, younger son of the Dauphin. He's just about to turn 18, shy, insecure, and pious. There's also evidence that he's already suffering from depressive episodes.
Louis XIV, who does not suffer from shyness or insecurity, sends advisors to Spain with Philip to prevent him from having to make any decisions of his own.
Philip and Spain
Now, the relationship between Philip and Spain upon arrival is complicated.
Pros:
- He's popular with the his subjects.
- He loves bullfights. When he sees his first one, he's like, "Again, again!"
Cons:
- He's incredibly homesick.
- He doesn't speak Spanish. (I'm not sure he ever learns.)
- He has really good intentions about attending council meetings and learning to govern, but depressive episodes make this super hard.
- The Spanish do everything so "wrong" (clothes, food, entertainment) in the eyes of the French, that Philip has to start a separate French court. His first wife will later have to make onion soup in her room because the Spanish cooks refuse to make it, and she refuses to eat Spanish food.
- A lot of Spaniards have resentment against the French because of decades of war.
- The Spanish courtiers and administrators get upset because the French are being preferred for appointments and benefits.
Louis and Spain
Worse, the Spanish don't have a centralized army, bureaucracy, or functional treasury. The army they do have is using equipment and methods that are now outdated. It's quite a bit like MT at the beginning of the War of the Austrian Succession, with the difference that Philip has never been to Spain, wasn't the candidate until a year or two ago, and is a few years younger than MT.
Now, Louis knows he's going to have to fight for Philip's throne. This means, one, Louis has to send troops and money to Spain to do the heavy lifting of the fighting. And two, via his advisors and Philip (who gradually takes more of a role in governing over time), Louis starts trying to make Spain more efficient, like France. (Which is not centralized in the way we would expect today, but is still more so than Spain.)
This intervention causes some problems.
One, Spain at this point is very decentralized, and the different provinces (Castile, Aragon, Catalonia, etc.) were only united under a king on the condition of being able to keep their traditional laws, government, etc. They're not happy about Madrid taking all that away and telling them what to do. So there's some resistance there.
Two, Louis acting like Spain is a province of France now is exactly what everyone else in Europe was trying to avoid by having Spain go to a younger grandson. This makes everyone nervous, which helps trigger the War of the Spanish Succession.
Marie Louise
Meanwhile, Philip is homesick, stressed, and extra depressed. But! Young wife to the rescue. Less than a year after Philip becomes king, Grandpa Louis XIV arranges a marriage for him, with the daughter of the Duke of Savoy.
This will be tragicomic. Why? Well, the Duke of Savoy, Victor Amadeus II, has a daughter married to the King of Spain and also a daughter married to Louis' oldest grandson, who is likely to become king of France (in actual fact, their son will inherit as Louis XV, but no one knows that). So you'd THINK he'd stick to an alliance with France+Spain.
You'd be wrong.
This is the guy who I was first introduced to by Horowski as "guaranteed to come out of any war on the opposite side from which he started, unless by chance he changed sides an even number of times."
The Duke of Savoy marries his daughter to Philip of Spain, and then, shortly thereafter, switches sides and starts supporting the cause that's trying to kick Philip off the throne.
Marie Louise writes letters going, "DAD! WTF!" and trying to bribe him back with territory. These letters have no effect.
[One of them contains the line "How long, dear papa, are you going to persecute your children?"selenak, are you also reminded of the famous opening line of Cicero's "Ad Catilinam"?]
Anyway, new queen Marie Louise is just shy of her 13th birthday when she marries. She and Philip meet in Barcelona, because he's on his way to inspect his territories in Italy, and she's on her way to Spain to be queen. After a few days of arguing, they fall desperately in love (or at least Philip clearly does, and her affection seems to have been sincere as well).
Philip continues on to Italy, leaving her to be regent. Now, she's only 13 on the one hand, but is strong-willed and politically opinionated on the other. And she does not suffer from depression. She attends meetings, rides out to show herself to the people and make herself popular, and does her best to actually govern.
She will, for the rest of her life, be the dominant influence over Philip. Once she dies, the next, equally strong-willed, wife will be equally dominant over him.
Now, here's where it gets interesting. Philip was the kind of guy who did two things that we've pointed out were highly unusual when FW and FS respectively did them:
1) Not take mistresses.
2) Sleep in the same room with his wife.
Contemporaries drew the conclusion that he had outrageous sexual needs that, because of his piety, could only be met by his wives, and that this explained their dominance over him. Modern historians (including Blanning!) have echoed this verdict.
The modern biographer of Philip V I read argues that his sexual needs were normal, that he was clinically depressed, and that what he most needed from his wives was emotional/psychological support. And since early 18th century men both couldn't understand his clinical needs and they looked askance at the woman calling the shots, they went, "MUST BE SEX." And everyone since then has repeated what previous historians have said.
Without having investigated the primary sources, I think it makes sense. (It's not like we haven't seen the "repeating previous historians" effect at work in places where we have investigated the primary sources!)
Philip V at War
While inspecting his domains in Italy, which remember is at war (Eugene doing his thing for Leopold), Philip V discovers two things. One, he's not terribly popular here, where everyone would kind of rather not be ruled by Spain. Two, war is awesome! War snaps him out of his depression and into something that might be mania but at the very least is getting out of bed and DOING STUFF! MANLY STUFF!
So initially in Italy, and then after he comes back to Spain, he spends a lot of time doing a third thing that is fairly unusual for crowned monarchs, namely risking his life in battle over and over and over again. His advisors don't think this is the best idea ever, but his subjects and the soldiers *love* it. He gets nicknamed "El Animoso" ("The Valiant"). Philip is quoted as saying, "All are risking their lives for me, reason enough that mine should not be counted of any greater importance than theirs."
Meanwhile, things generally go well for him in Spain. The Allies (Austria, England, Netherlands, Portugal, mostly) manage to land future Charles VI with an army in Spain, but they get bad PR. Like, the first thing an Allied army does when it sets foot in Spain is get drunk and start looting. Though that's not the norm, it does get them off to a bad start, and they don't really make up for it afterwards.
The Duke of Berwick is the main commander on the French/Spanish side, and he has a lot of military success. Whenever the Allies conquer part of Spain, Philip and Berwick manage to get it back.
The Allies briefly occupy Madrid twice, once for about a month in 1706 and once for a month or two in 1710. The second time, Charles enters the city and proclaims himself king. Some people swear allegiance to him, but the reaction is very "meh". Philip is quoted as saying, "I am very pleased that the English have brought the archduke to Madrid; he will have occasion to see the disposition of people in my capital."
That's...about how it goes, and Charles leaves again soon and is never to return.
As we know, he gets elected Holy Roman Emperor the following year, making him suddenly not a great candidate for King of Spain, and he leaves Spain altogether, but insists that he's still king.
But, Philip is the one calling the shots.
Spain and France
Rewind a bit to 1709 (more on this in another post, it's a big year), France is exhausted and ready to talk peace. Louis pulls his troops out of Spain as a gesture of goodwill to help the peace talks along. Philip, now 25 years old and an experienced warrior, is acting more and more independently. He tells Louis that it's God's will that he be King of Spain and he will keep fighting as long as there's a drop of blood in his body.
Louis clearly respects him for his determination, but doesn't think it's the greatest political move. Grandfather and grandson write each other mutually polite-but-tense letters with an undercurrent of "I'm not criticizing you, but I think you're wrong, and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing."
As a gesture of independence, Philip sends messengers to the Hague to see about a separate peace, negotiated without reference to France. This is a first: Spain and France have been pretty much hand-in-glove so far, with France as the dominant party.
Buuut, the allies are like, "Nah, Louis, you gotta kick your grandson off the throne if you want peacesince, um, we obviously can't do it," and Louis can't bring himself to do this, so the war continues. Louis sends troops back to Spain the following year.
Isabella Farnese
So, remember Queen Marie Louise, she who was regent at 13 and dominated Philip as long as she lived? (Yes, I'm foreshadowing her death here.)
Well, the person who was supposed to have influenced her the most was the Princess d'Ursins ("Ursins" being the French version of the name of her husband's family, the famous Orsini family). She was a lady-in-waiting to Marie Louise, and was highly resented in the same way that royal mistresses were resented: for being women with unofficial power through influence. How far her influence extended in reality is up for debate. Horowski makes the case that in France, the royal mistress was a convenient scapegoat for unpopular decisions, and that doesn't mean the mistress actually was responsible for the decision. The same dynamic, according to the Philip V biographer I read, may have been at work with d'Ursins.
At any rate. She clearly had some influence, and she was strong-willed and outspoken.
So, when Marie Louise died in 1714, age 25, from tuberculosis (she had been in a decline for many years), the now 72-year-old d'Ursins wanted to stay in power.
Philip V wanted to remarry immediately. His advisors saw this as an expression of his sexual needs; as we've seen, it may have been his clinical depression at work. Marie Louise died in February; he was married again in September. If you consider the travel time between Spain and Italy, that's some rapid marriage-making.
One candidate for the queen was Isabella Farnese, niece of the Duke of Parma. The Parmese envoy to Madrid says she'll make the perfect wife: quiet, docile, not a clue about politics, only accustomed to talk about sewing and embroidery.
Well, d'Ursins likes the sound of that. She doesn't want some rival showing up. So she helps make this marriage happen.
Then she meets the 22-year-old Isabella the day before Philip does, starts telling the new queen what's what, and is shocked to discover that the ambassador LIED. This young woman is as strong-willed as herself! Queen Isabella has d'Ursins arrested and banished from Spain on day one!
Philip doesn't hold this against her and falls in love with her at first sight. She picks up where Marie Louise left off in telling Philip what to do. She's the one who, after thirty years of being nocturnal in order to match Philip's depressive sleep schedule, was unable to adjust to daytime life and lost her influence at court when Philip died and his son inherited.
Now, I know less about Isabella, because I stopped reading the Philip V bio at the end of the War of the Spanish Succession, but he still has 30+ years left to reign.
What I remember from Horowski is that Isabella spends a lot of time machinating to get her sons territory, because Marie Louise's sons are due to inherit in Spain, that Philip abdicates in favor of his son (strongly against Isabella's wishes) because he's convinced that Spain's misfortunes are a sign of God's displeasure at his taking the throne (the one that in 1709 he was convinced it was God's will that he fight for to his last drop of blood), that his son promptly dies after only a few months as king, and that Philip reluctantly takes that as a sign from God and re-ascends the throne. That's why his bio is subtitled "The King Who Reigned Twice." And of course,selenak has told us all about Farinelli as Philip's musical therapist!
I will probably at some point finish reading the bio (it's short, although in a format that's annoying to navigate, or else I would have finished it by now), but due to time constraints, I'll just leave you with that cliffhanger. ;)
Louis XIV, who does not suffer from shyness or insecurity, sends advisors to Spain with Philip to prevent him from having to make any decisions of his own.
Philip and Spain
Now, the relationship between Philip and Spain upon arrival is complicated.
Pros:
- He's popular with the his subjects.
- He loves bullfights. When he sees his first one, he's like, "Again, again!"
Cons:
- He's incredibly homesick.
- He doesn't speak Spanish. (I'm not sure he ever learns.)
- He has really good intentions about attending council meetings and learning to govern, but depressive episodes make this super hard.
- The Spanish do everything so "wrong" (clothes, food, entertainment) in the eyes of the French, that Philip has to start a separate French court. His first wife will later have to make onion soup in her room because the Spanish cooks refuse to make it, and she refuses to eat Spanish food.
- A lot of Spaniards have resentment against the French because of decades of war.
- The Spanish courtiers and administrators get upset because the French are being preferred for appointments and benefits.
Louis and Spain
Worse, the Spanish don't have a centralized army, bureaucracy, or functional treasury. The army they do have is using equipment and methods that are now outdated. It's quite a bit like MT at the beginning of the War of the Austrian Succession, with the difference that Philip has never been to Spain, wasn't the candidate until a year or two ago, and is a few years younger than MT.
Now, Louis knows he's going to have to fight for Philip's throne. This means, one, Louis has to send troops and money to Spain to do the heavy lifting of the fighting. And two, via his advisors and Philip (who gradually takes more of a role in governing over time), Louis starts trying to make Spain more efficient, like France. (Which is not centralized in the way we would expect today, but is still more so than Spain.)
This intervention causes some problems.
One, Spain at this point is very decentralized, and the different provinces (Castile, Aragon, Catalonia, etc.) were only united under a king on the condition of being able to keep their traditional laws, government, etc. They're not happy about Madrid taking all that away and telling them what to do. So there's some resistance there.
Two, Louis acting like Spain is a province of France now is exactly what everyone else in Europe was trying to avoid by having Spain go to a younger grandson. This makes everyone nervous, which helps trigger the War of the Spanish Succession.
Marie Louise
Meanwhile, Philip is homesick, stressed, and extra depressed. But! Young wife to the rescue. Less than a year after Philip becomes king, Grandpa Louis XIV arranges a marriage for him, with the daughter of the Duke of Savoy.
This will be tragicomic. Why? Well, the Duke of Savoy, Victor Amadeus II, has a daughter married to the King of Spain and also a daughter married to Louis' oldest grandson, who is likely to become king of France (in actual fact, their son will inherit as Louis XV, but no one knows that). So you'd THINK he'd stick to an alliance with France+Spain.
You'd be wrong.
This is the guy who I was first introduced to by Horowski as "guaranteed to come out of any war on the opposite side from which he started, unless by chance he changed sides an even number of times."
The Duke of Savoy marries his daughter to Philip of Spain, and then, shortly thereafter, switches sides and starts supporting the cause that's trying to kick Philip off the throne.
Marie Louise writes letters going, "DAD! WTF!" and trying to bribe him back with territory. These letters have no effect.
[One of them contains the line "How long, dear papa, are you going to persecute your children?"
selenak, are you also reminded of the famous opening line of Cicero's "Ad Catilinam"?]Anyway, new queen Marie Louise is just shy of her 13th birthday when she marries. She and Philip meet in Barcelona, because he's on his way to inspect his territories in Italy, and she's on her way to Spain to be queen. After a few days of arguing, they fall desperately in love (or at least Philip clearly does, and her affection seems to have been sincere as well).
Philip continues on to Italy, leaving her to be regent. Now, she's only 13 on the one hand, but is strong-willed and politically opinionated on the other. And she does not suffer from depression. She attends meetings, rides out to show herself to the people and make herself popular, and does her best to actually govern.
She will, for the rest of her life, be the dominant influence over Philip. Once she dies, the next, equally strong-willed, wife will be equally dominant over him.
Now, here's where it gets interesting. Philip was the kind of guy who did two things that we've pointed out were highly unusual when FW and FS respectively did them:
1) Not take mistresses.
2) Sleep in the same room with his wife.
Contemporaries drew the conclusion that he had outrageous sexual needs that, because of his piety, could only be met by his wives, and that this explained their dominance over him. Modern historians (including Blanning!) have echoed this verdict.
The modern biographer of Philip V I read argues that his sexual needs were normal, that he was clinically depressed, and that what he most needed from his wives was emotional/psychological support. And since early 18th century men both couldn't understand his clinical needs and they looked askance at the woman calling the shots, they went, "MUST BE SEX." And everyone since then has repeated what previous historians have said.
Without having investigated the primary sources, I think it makes sense. (It's not like we haven't seen the "repeating previous historians" effect at work in places where we have investigated the primary sources!)
Philip V at War
While inspecting his domains in Italy, which remember is at war (Eugene doing his thing for Leopold), Philip V discovers two things. One, he's not terribly popular here, where everyone would kind of rather not be ruled by Spain. Two, war is awesome! War snaps him out of his depression and into something that might be mania but at the very least is getting out of bed and DOING STUFF! MANLY STUFF!
So initially in Italy, and then after he comes back to Spain, he spends a lot of time doing a third thing that is fairly unusual for crowned monarchs, namely risking his life in battle over and over and over again. His advisors don't think this is the best idea ever, but his subjects and the soldiers *love* it. He gets nicknamed "El Animoso" ("The Valiant"). Philip is quoted as saying, "All are risking their lives for me, reason enough that mine should not be counted of any greater importance than theirs."
Meanwhile, things generally go well for him in Spain. The Allies (Austria, England, Netherlands, Portugal, mostly) manage to land future Charles VI with an army in Spain, but they get bad PR. Like, the first thing an Allied army does when it sets foot in Spain is get drunk and start looting. Though that's not the norm, it does get them off to a bad start, and they don't really make up for it afterwards.
The Duke of Berwick is the main commander on the French/Spanish side, and he has a lot of military success. Whenever the Allies conquer part of Spain, Philip and Berwick manage to get it back.
The Allies briefly occupy Madrid twice, once for about a month in 1706 and once for a month or two in 1710. The second time, Charles enters the city and proclaims himself king. Some people swear allegiance to him, but the reaction is very "meh". Philip is quoted as saying, "I am very pleased that the English have brought the archduke to Madrid; he will have occasion to see the disposition of people in my capital."
That's...about how it goes, and Charles leaves again soon and is never to return.
As we know, he gets elected Holy Roman Emperor the following year, making him suddenly not a great candidate for King of Spain, and he leaves Spain altogether, but insists that he's still king.
But, Philip is the one calling the shots.
Spain and France
Rewind a bit to 1709 (more on this in another post, it's a big year), France is exhausted and ready to talk peace. Louis pulls his troops out of Spain as a gesture of goodwill to help the peace talks along. Philip, now 25 years old and an experienced warrior, is acting more and more independently. He tells Louis that it's God's will that he be King of Spain and he will keep fighting as long as there's a drop of blood in his body.
Louis clearly respects him for his determination, but doesn't think it's the greatest political move. Grandfather and grandson write each other mutually polite-but-tense letters with an undercurrent of "I'm not criticizing you, but I think you're wrong, and I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing."
As a gesture of independence, Philip sends messengers to the Hague to see about a separate peace, negotiated without reference to France. This is a first: Spain and France have been pretty much hand-in-glove so far, with France as the dominant party.
Buuut, the allies are like, "Nah, Louis, you gotta kick your grandson off the throne if you want peace
Isabella Farnese
So, remember Queen Marie Louise, she who was regent at 13 and dominated Philip as long as she lived? (Yes, I'm foreshadowing her death here.)
Well, the person who was supposed to have influenced her the most was the Princess d'Ursins ("Ursins" being the French version of the name of her husband's family, the famous Orsini family). She was a lady-in-waiting to Marie Louise, and was highly resented in the same way that royal mistresses were resented: for being women with unofficial power through influence. How far her influence extended in reality is up for debate. Horowski makes the case that in France, the royal mistress was a convenient scapegoat for unpopular decisions, and that doesn't mean the mistress actually was responsible for the decision. The same dynamic, according to the Philip V biographer I read, may have been at work with d'Ursins.
At any rate. She clearly had some influence, and she was strong-willed and outspoken.
So, when Marie Louise died in 1714, age 25, from tuberculosis (she had been in a decline for many years), the now 72-year-old d'Ursins wanted to stay in power.
Philip V wanted to remarry immediately. His advisors saw this as an expression of his sexual needs; as we've seen, it may have been his clinical depression at work. Marie Louise died in February; he was married again in September. If you consider the travel time between Spain and Italy, that's some rapid marriage-making.
One candidate for the queen was Isabella Farnese, niece of the Duke of Parma. The Parmese envoy to Madrid says she'll make the perfect wife: quiet, docile, not a clue about politics, only accustomed to talk about sewing and embroidery.
Well, d'Ursins likes the sound of that. She doesn't want some rival showing up. So she helps make this marriage happen.
Then she meets the 22-year-old Isabella the day before Philip does, starts telling the new queen what's what, and is shocked to discover that the ambassador LIED. This young woman is as strong-willed as herself! Queen Isabella has d'Ursins arrested and banished from Spain on day one!
Philip doesn't hold this against her and falls in love with her at first sight. She picks up where Marie Louise left off in telling Philip what to do. She's the one who, after thirty years of being nocturnal in order to match Philip's depressive sleep schedule, was unable to adjust to daytime life and lost her influence at court when Philip died and his son inherited.
Now, I know less about Isabella, because I stopped reading the Philip V bio at the end of the War of the Spanish Succession, but he still has 30+ years left to reign.
What I remember from Horowski is that Isabella spends a lot of time machinating to get her sons territory, because Marie Louise's sons are due to inherit in Spain, that Philip abdicates in favor of his son (strongly against Isabella's wishes) because he's convinced that Spain's misfortunes are a sign of God's displeasure at his taking the throne (the one that in 1709 he was convinced it was God's will that he fight for to his last drop of blood), that his son promptly dies after only a few months as king, and that Philip reluctantly takes that as a sign from God and re-ascends the throne. That's why his bio is subtitled "The King Who Reigned Twice." And of course,
selenak has told us all about Farinelli as Philip's musical therapist!I will probably at some point finish reading the bio (it's short, although in a format that's annoying to navigate, or else I would have finished it by now), but due to time constraints, I'll just leave you with that cliffhanger. ;)
Louis XIV, who does not suffer from shyness or insecurity
Best understated description ever. :)
He doesn't speak Spanish. (I'm not sure he ever learns.)
This clearly was the century for this, though G1 at least tried a bit. (BTW: after watching some hobby historians vid about Sophie of Hanover, I saw a commenter asking why if Sophie was multilingual herself didn't she prepare son George for his destiny by having him fluent in English. Never mind that by the time Sophie got anywhere near the succession, future G1 was already an adult and married.) Mind you, for all the criticism they (often rightly) receive, the Hannoverians were pretty quick in picking up the local language. G2 and Caroline became fluent when they were Prince and Princess of Wales (they just prefered French among themselves when on the throne), and since Fritz of Wales had his kids raised with English as their first language, G3 obviously was fluent was well. Whereas Cleopatra (VII, the famous one) supposedly was the first of her dynasty to actually speak Egyptian (as well as Greek and the other languages she learned). And there were centuries between her and Ptolemy Soter the Macedonian general of Alexander who founded the dynasty.
are you also reminded of the famous opening line of Cicero's "Ad Catilinam"?
I am! Depending on her education, she might have phrased it this way intentionally.
Charles leaves again soon and is never to return.
Taking Spanish court etiquette with him, though, much to (some of) his descendants disgruntlement. (If you watch a movie, any movie, about 19th century Habsburgs, especially if it's about Elisabeth of Wittelsbach aka Sissi marrying into the clan, you can guarantee there's a scene with her going "Spanish court protocol: how I hate it, let me count the ways" in it, which, unlike much on these movies, is actually truth in television.)
The modern biographer of Philip V I read argues that his sexual needs were normal, that he was clinically depressed, and that what he most needed from his wives was emotional/psychological support. And since early 18th century men both couldn't understand his clinical needs and they looked askance at the woman calling the shots, they went, "MUST BE SEX." And everyone since then has repeated what previous historians have said.
Without having investigated the primary sources, I think it makes sense. (It's not like we haven't seen the "repeating previous historians" effect at work in places where we have investigated the primary sources!)
Yep, sounds entirely plausible to me. Poor Philip - well, except that he seems to have found wives who could match his emotional needs, which as far as the royal marriage lottery is concerned actually makes him lucky Philip, I guess.
If you consider the travel time between Spain and Italy, that's some rapid marriage-making.
No kidding, especially for that time. Remember the years and YEARS of English marriage negotiations for Fritz and Wilhelmine?
Philip abdicates in favor of his son (strongly against Isabella's wishes) because he's convinced that Spain's misfortunes are a sign of God's displeasure at his taking the throne (the one that in 1709 he was convinced it was God's will that he fight for to his last drop of blood), that his son promptly dies after only a few months as king, and that Philip reluctantly takes that as a sign from God and re-ascends the throne.
Which is part of the plot of the movie A Royal Exchange which I recently reviewed here. (Up at Amazon Prime in my part of the world at least, if someone wants to watch it for visual illustrations.)
Best understated description ever. :)
He doesn't speak Spanish. (I'm not sure he ever learns.)
This clearly was the century for this, though G1 at least tried a bit. (BTW: after watching some hobby historians vid about Sophie of Hanover, I saw a commenter asking why if Sophie was multilingual herself didn't she prepare son George for his destiny by having him fluent in English. Never mind that by the time Sophie got anywhere near the succession, future G1 was already an adult and married.) Mind you, for all the criticism they (often rightly) receive, the Hannoverians were pretty quick in picking up the local language. G2 and Caroline became fluent when they were Prince and Princess of Wales (they just prefered French among themselves when on the throne), and since Fritz of Wales had his kids raised with English as their first language, G3 obviously was fluent was well. Whereas Cleopatra (VII, the famous one) supposedly was the first of her dynasty to actually speak Egyptian (as well as Greek and the other languages she learned). And there were centuries between her and Ptolemy Soter the Macedonian general of Alexander who founded the dynasty.
are you also reminded of the famous opening line of Cicero's "Ad Catilinam"?
I am! Depending on her education, she might have phrased it this way intentionally.
Charles leaves again soon and is never to return.
Taking Spanish court etiquette with him, though, much to (some of) his descendants disgruntlement. (If you watch a movie, any movie, about 19th century Habsburgs, especially if it's about Elisabeth of Wittelsbach aka Sissi marrying into the clan, you can guarantee there's a scene with her going "Spanish court protocol: how I hate it, let me count the ways" in it, which, unlike much on these movies, is actually truth in television.)
The modern biographer of Philip V I read argues that his sexual needs were normal, that he was clinically depressed, and that what he most needed from his wives was emotional/psychological support. And since early 18th century men both couldn't understand his clinical needs and they looked askance at the woman calling the shots, they went, "MUST BE SEX." And everyone since then has repeated what previous historians have said.
Without having investigated the primary sources, I think it makes sense. (It's not like we haven't seen the "repeating previous historians" effect at work in places where we have investigated the primary sources!)
Yep, sounds entirely plausible to me. Poor Philip - well, except that he seems to have found wives who could match his emotional needs, which as far as the royal marriage lottery is concerned actually makes him lucky Philip, I guess.
If you consider the travel time between Spain and Italy, that's some rapid marriage-making.
No kidding, especially for that time. Remember the years and YEARS of English marriage negotiations for Fritz and Wilhelmine?
Philip abdicates in favor of his son (strongly against Isabella's wishes) because he's convinced that Spain's misfortunes are a sign of God's displeasure at his taking the throne (the one that in 1709 he was convinced it was God's will that he fight for to his last drop of blood), that his son promptly dies after only a few months as king, and that Philip reluctantly takes that as a sign from God and re-ascends the throne.
Which is part of the plot of the movie A Royal Exchange which I recently reviewed here. (Up at Amazon Prime in my part of the world at least, if someone wants to watch it for visual illustrations.)
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Philip V and his wives
mildred_of_midgard
2021-05-18 12:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Louis XIV, who does not suffer from shyness or insecurity
Best understated description ever. :)
Hee. Louis was like, "Don't worry, I'll make all the decisions long-distance. I gotcha covered."
are you also reminded of the famous opening line of Cicero's "Ad Catilinam"?
I am! Depending on her education, she might have phrased it this way intentionally.
Yeah, I've been wondering. All I have to go on is Wikipedia: "In her youth, Maria Luisa Gabriella was described as 'intelligent, playful, and fun-loving' and had received an excellent education." So it might have been intentional.
Speaking of education, mine was clearly long ago: it's the "In Catilinam."
For our non-classicists, "In Catilinam" is one of Cicero's most famous speeches. He's prosecuting Catilina/Catiline (he did this in multiple speeches, but the first one is the most famous), and, as Wikipedia remarks, "The opening remarks are still widely remembered and used after 2000 years:"
When, O Catiline, do you mean to cease abusing our patience? How long is that madness of yours still to mock us? When is there to be an end of that unbridled audacity of yours, swaggering about as it does now?
Speaking of Catilina, there was a discussion of the spelling of his name while I was on hiatus:
"Catalina": this reminds, not just Arianrhod spells the name like this, so do some other books. But the man in question still was called Lucius Sergius Catilina. There's also the anglisized "Catiline" in the offering. But "Catalina", as far as I know, is the Spanish version of the name Catherine, so who in Voltairian literature started to spell the Roman bad boy this way, I have no idea.
First of all, good catch, I hadn't caught the misspelling! Some googling showed me that this is an intermittent misspelling dating back to at least the 18th century. It's quite common in catalogs, and not just for Voltaire's play, but Crebillon's as well. I think a lot of the instances are independent misspellings, but it's possible there's also a tradition in Voltairean scholarship where people with a less sharp eye thanselenak are copying each other.
Taking Spanish court etiquette with him, though, much to (some of) his descendants disgruntlement.
Yes, indeed. Reading the biography of Joseph II, I got to the part where Charles VI introduced it based on his time in Spain, and it was another occasion where I was pleased that I actually know something about the War of the Spanish Succession and therefore about his time in Spain. And, as we know, MT later toned the Spanish etiquette way down, and Joseph went "Nope, nope, nope." :D
No kidding, especially for that time. Remember the years and YEARS of English marriage negotiations for Fritz and Wilhelmine?
Thanks to MacDonogh and then Wilhelmine covering them in excruciating detail, I do!
Both Philip's marriages were super fast: king of Spain in November 1700, arrives in Madrid in February 1701, married in September 1701. Widowed in February 1714, married in September 1714.
Poor Philip - well, except that he seems to have found wives who could match his emotional needs, which as far as the royal marriage lottery is concerned actually makes him lucky Philip, I guess.
Yeah, although I think he probably helped the cause quite a lot. He's supposed to have fallen in love with both of them at first sight, suggesting he was willing to take what he could get. The rush on the second marriage was supposed to be because of his insatiable sexual needs, for which read his emotional needs, so again, desperate. And finally, him letting them tell him what to do must have increased the odds they were willing to put in the effort of meeting him halfway. (This is why it's hard to tell how his wives, who surely knew which side their bread was buttered on, actually felt. Though at the very least, I imagine they knew they had won the royal marriage lottery for reals, and that might have inspired some genuine affection.)
Again, this is all without having read the primary sources, but, based on the data I have, it seems like he was desperate and pliable when it came to his wives.
Best understated description ever. :)
Hee. Louis was like, "Don't worry, I'll make all the decisions long-distance. I gotcha covered."
are you also reminded of the famous opening line of Cicero's "Ad Catilinam"?
I am! Depending on her education, she might have phrased it this way intentionally.
Yeah, I've been wondering. All I have to go on is Wikipedia: "In her youth, Maria Luisa Gabriella was described as 'intelligent, playful, and fun-loving' and had received an excellent education." So it might have been intentional.
Speaking of education, mine was clearly long ago: it's the "In Catilinam."
For our non-classicists, "In Catilinam" is one of Cicero's most famous speeches. He's prosecuting Catilina/Catiline (he did this in multiple speeches, but the first one is the most famous), and, as Wikipedia remarks, "The opening remarks are still widely remembered and used after 2000 years:"
When, O Catiline, do you mean to cease abusing our patience? How long is that madness of yours still to mock us? When is there to be an end of that unbridled audacity of yours, swaggering about as it does now?
Speaking of Catilina, there was a discussion of the spelling of his name while I was on hiatus:
"Catalina": this reminds, not just Arianrhod spells the name like this, so do some other books. But the man in question still was called Lucius Sergius Catilina. There's also the anglisized "Catiline" in the offering. But "Catalina", as far as I know, is the Spanish version of the name Catherine, so who in Voltairian literature started to spell the Roman bad boy this way, I have no idea.
First of all, good catch, I hadn't caught the misspelling! Some googling showed me that this is an intermittent misspelling dating back to at least the 18th century. It's quite common in catalogs, and not just for Voltaire's play, but Crebillon's as well. I think a lot of the instances are independent misspellings, but it's possible there's also a tradition in Voltairean scholarship where people with a less sharp eye than
selenak are copying each other.Taking Spanish court etiquette with him, though, much to (some of) his descendants disgruntlement.
Yes, indeed. Reading the biography of Joseph II, I got to the part where Charles VI introduced it based on his time in Spain, and it was another occasion where I was pleased that I actually know something about the War of the Spanish Succession and therefore about his time in Spain. And, as we know, MT later toned the Spanish etiquette way down, and Joseph went "Nope, nope, nope." :D
No kidding, especially for that time. Remember the years and YEARS of English marriage negotiations for Fritz and Wilhelmine?
Thanks to MacDonogh and then Wilhelmine covering them in excruciating detail, I do!
Both Philip's marriages were super fast: king of Spain in November 1700, arrives in Madrid in February 1701, married in September 1701. Widowed in February 1714, married in September 1714.
Poor Philip - well, except that he seems to have found wives who could match his emotional needs, which as far as the royal marriage lottery is concerned actually makes him lucky Philip, I guess.
Yeah, although I think he probably helped the cause quite a lot. He's supposed to have fallen in love with both of them at first sight, suggesting he was willing to take what he could get. The rush on the second marriage was supposed to be because of his insatiable sexual needs, for which read his emotional needs, so again, desperate. And finally, him letting them tell him what to do must have increased the odds they were willing to put in the effort of meeting him halfway. (This is why it's hard to tell how his wives, who surely knew which side their bread was buttered on, actually felt. Though at the very least, I imagine they knew they had won the royal marriage lottery for reals, and that might have inspired some genuine affection.)
Again, this is all without having read the primary sources, but, based on the data I have, it seems like he was desperate and pliable when it came to his wives.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
mildred_of_midgard
2021-05-19 01:14 am (UTC)(link)
Most of this won't be new to selenak, but will be to cahn at least, and in any case, I found it useful to link all the causes and effects together with the War of the Spanish Succession.
1688: Increasingly unpopular Catholic James II loses his throne in England. His daughter Mary and her husband William of Orange become Mary II and William III, or "William and Mary." James goes to France. His supporters are called Jacobites, from the Latin "Jacobus" for "James".
1692: The Hanovers get HRE Leopold I (MT's grandfather) to agree to let them be Electors. But curses! The other Electors are holding tight to their exclusive club and won't acknowledge a new member.
1697: The Peace of Ryswick ends the Nine Years' War between France and the rest of Europe. Everyone knows this is only a bit of breathing room before Charles II dies and the next war starts. Of interest to us here is the fact that Louis is forced to acknowledge the Protestant succession in Britain. This means William, Anne, and the Hanovers. No Stuarts!
1701: James II dies. Louis is present at his bedside. Where everyone can hear him, he announces loudly, crying, that he will recognize James's son James III as king and support his claim forever.
William: WTF, Louis? You just signed a treaty saying you wouldn't do this.
Louis: If you'd been paying attention for the last 40 years, you would have noticed that it's been one long string of broken treaties. Get with the program!
1702: William dies. His sister-in-law Anne, younger daughter of James II, succeeds him as Queen Anne. Anne hastens to assure the nervous Allies that she is just as committed to fighting this war as the lifelong hater of France William was. She sends Marlborough, husband of her maybe lover Sarah Churchill, to be supreme commander.
Some Whigs want George of Hanover to get the command, but Anne is like "NO. No Hanovers."
1707: Marlborough is in the Low Countries. Eugene is off in Italy. There's a crisis in southern Germany and the Allies need a good commander. George of Hanover says, "Fine, I'll do it, but only if Hanover gets to be an electorate!"
1708: The Imperial Diet obligingly ratifies the status of Hanover as an electorate. I'm honestly so used to thinking of them as electors I hadn't realized it was this late a development! This is like Leopold recognizing F1 as king in 1700 and the French not until 1714.
1708: Louis decides he needs to distract the English, hopefully get them to pull some troops off the Continent. He sends some ships with the would-be James III, but the English have a much better navy. The French barely make it to Scotland, it's not safe for them to land, there's no ground support, and they turn around and come back, without James ever setting foot on the British Isles. Louis never tries that again.
1714: Due to adventures like 1708, a very important condition of the Peace of Utrecht is that France has to recognize the Hanover succession.
1714 is also when Anne dies and G1 ascends. Naturally, this means another Jacobite rebellion.
1715: The famous Jacobite rising of 1715, known as the '15 or the Fifteen. (In contrast to the '45/Forty-five.) This one not sponsored by Louis, who is in fact dead by the time most of the action happens.
1716: The French and English sign a treaty requiring James to be kicked out of France. James goes to Rome, which is why future Bonnie Prince Charlie will be born (and die) there, and all future adventures of this family will be based out of Rome. The Pope is their last powerful supporter, and even the popes become increasingly "meh" about the obvious lost cause.
1719: Remember when Spain lost a bunch of territory in the War of the Spanish Succession, was really unhappy about it, and waged wars trying to get it back? The big one was 1718-1720. This is why there's a Spain-sponsored Jacobite rebellion in 1719. It's not as big as the 1715 one but bigger than the 1708 one. Like all of them, it fails quickly. But having known about the 1719 since my Jacobite fandom days, I'm now very pleased to have the Spanish context for it.
Finally, an anecdote that I don't have a date for: my Invincible Generals book tells me that Elector George/G1 did not like Eugene of Savoy at all, and that his son the Crown Prince/future G2 served with Eugene for a while solely to annoy his father! Then there's a footnote by the author to the effect of, "Well, at least one of my sources interprets the evidence that way."
I choose to believe.
selenak, but will be to cahn at least, and in any case, I found it useful to link all the causes and effects together with the War of the Spanish Succession.1688: Increasingly unpopular Catholic James II loses his throne in England. His daughter Mary and her husband William of Orange become Mary II and William III, or "William and Mary." James goes to France. His supporters are called Jacobites, from the Latin "Jacobus" for "James".
1692: The Hanovers get HRE Leopold I (MT's grandfather) to agree to let them be Electors. But curses! The other Electors are holding tight to their exclusive club and won't acknowledge a new member.
1697: The Peace of Ryswick ends the Nine Years' War between France and the rest of Europe. Everyone knows this is only a bit of breathing room before Charles II dies and the next war starts. Of interest to us here is the fact that Louis is forced to acknowledge the Protestant succession in Britain. This means William, Anne, and the Hanovers. No Stuarts!
1701: James II dies. Louis is present at his bedside. Where everyone can hear him, he announces loudly, crying, that he will recognize James's son James III as king and support his claim forever.
William: WTF, Louis? You just signed a treaty saying you wouldn't do this.
Louis: If you'd been paying attention for the last 40 years, you would have noticed that it's been one long string of broken treaties. Get with the program!
1702: William dies. His sister-in-law Anne, younger daughter of James II, succeeds him as Queen Anne. Anne hastens to assure the nervous Allies that she is just as committed to fighting this war as the lifelong hater of France William was. She sends Marlborough, husband of her maybe lover Sarah Churchill, to be supreme commander.
Some Whigs want George of Hanover to get the command, but Anne is like "NO. No Hanovers."
1707: Marlborough is in the Low Countries. Eugene is off in Italy. There's a crisis in southern Germany and the Allies need a good commander. George of Hanover says, "Fine, I'll do it, but only if Hanover gets to be an electorate!"
1708: The Imperial Diet obligingly ratifies the status of Hanover as an electorate. I'm honestly so used to thinking of them as electors I hadn't realized it was this late a development! This is like Leopold recognizing F1 as king in 1700 and the French not until 1714.
1708: Louis decides he needs to distract the English, hopefully get them to pull some troops off the Continent. He sends some ships with the would-be James III, but the English have a much better navy. The French barely make it to Scotland, it's not safe for them to land, there's no ground support, and they turn around and come back, without James ever setting foot on the British Isles. Louis never tries that again.
1714: Due to adventures like 1708, a very important condition of the Peace of Utrecht is that France has to recognize the Hanover succession.
1714 is also when Anne dies and G1 ascends. Naturally, this means another Jacobite rebellion.
1715: The famous Jacobite rising of 1715, known as the '15 or the Fifteen. (In contrast to the '45/Forty-five.) This one not sponsored by Louis, who is in fact dead by the time most of the action happens.
1716: The French and English sign a treaty requiring James to be kicked out of France. James goes to Rome, which is why future Bonnie Prince Charlie will be born (and die) there, and all future adventures of this family will be based out of Rome. The Pope is their last powerful supporter, and even the popes become increasingly "meh" about the obvious lost cause.
1719: Remember when Spain lost a bunch of territory in the War of the Spanish Succession, was really unhappy about it, and waged wars trying to get it back? The big one was 1718-1720. This is why there's a Spain-sponsored Jacobite rebellion in 1719. It's not as big as the 1715 one but bigger than the 1708 one. Like all of them, it fails quickly. But having known about the 1719 since my Jacobite fandom days, I'm now very pleased to have the Spanish context for it.
Finally, an anecdote that I don't have a date for: my Invincible Generals book tells me that Elector George/G1 did not like Eugene of Savoy at all, and that his son the Crown Prince/future G2 served with Eugene for a while solely to annoy his father! Then there's a footnote by the author to the effect of, "Well, at least one of my sources interprets the evidence that way."
I choose to believe.
Increasingly unpopular Catholic James II loses his throne in England. His daughter Mary and her husband William of Orange become Mary II and William III, or "William and Mary.
I think it's worth pointing out the religious situation of James' various children tocahn, and how this impacts the English succession, not to mention that the story contains some gossipy sensationalism.
So, James: second son of the executed Charles I., shared exile with brother Charles the future II, returns with Charles when the Restoration happens - and almost immediately afterwards gets Anne Hyde pregnant, who is the daughter of Charles' Chancellor, Sir Edward Hyde.
Gossip: Aha! Scheming Vizir alert! Guess that guy has his eyes on the succession!
Gossip: *is dead wrong, but fits the climate of the times. When Charles' marriage with Catherine of Braganza won't produce any living offspring, while Charles has illegitimate children galore, Anne's father will be accused by gossip of having matched Charles knowingly to an infertile woman, which is absolutely insane*
Meanwhile, James: I don't want to marry a girl I got pregnant ahead of marriage anyway. She's not worthy of me.
Sam Pepys, Diarist, chronicler of the era, records this quote in his diary: "A man doesn't put on a hat he shat in."
Charles II: You're marrying the girl. I'm famous for my lack of morals in other things, but I actually draw the line here. Considering I like women out of bed as well as in it.
James: marries Anne Hyde teeth clenched. They have an unhappy marriage which for the purpose of this summary produces two living and surviving daughters, Mary and Anne, both, and this is important, raised Protestant.
James: becomes a Catholic. There is much upset, but after years and years of to-ing and thro-ing, Parliament is still willing to accept him as next in the succession, precisely because both his surviving offspring remain Protestant. Both daughters get married to impeccably Protestant chaps, Mary to her cousin William of Orange (son of Charles' and James' dead sister), and Anne to Prince George of Denmark.
Anne Hyde: Dies.
James: remarries, this time a Catholic Italian Duchess, Mary of Modena
Brits: Not happy, but, see above.
Mary of Modena: has babies, including, eventually, a boy, another James, who, unlike his older half sisters, is baptized a Catholic.
Charles: dies.
James: is now a Catholic King of a country convinced he'll go Mary Tudor on them. So far, people could tell themselves that it would only be temporary because after James, there are two Protestant daughters with their Protestant husbands lined up. But a male heir takes precedent over a female heir, meaning that not only do they have a Catholic King but next in line would also be a Catholic. Unless....
"Glorious Revolution"/Dutch Takeover of Britain: happens.
And James and the Catholic part of the Stuarts go into exile. Now, the next problem is that Mary and William have no living offspring, either. Younger sister Anne (the one from "The Favourite") has had lots of babies, most of whom die at birth or not too long thereafter, and the one kid who makes it beyond toddlerdom dies age 10 or thereabouts. Which means James the Catholic half brother still would inherit. Unless....
Parliament: creates an act forbidding any Catholics ever on the throne and putting it in writing that only Protestants can inherit, and specifically, Protestants who descend from...
Sophie of Hannover: Me! As daughter of the Elizabeth Stuart the Winter Queen, first cousin to Charles II. and James II., I'm the next Protestant heir. Of course, we could have gotten there faster and without any James interludes if I'd married Cousin Charles back in the day when he was an exile and broke and I was the youngest daughter of a large family, but there you go.
Anne: I grudgingly accept this, but no Hannovers ever will enter this realm while I am still alive. Especially not Sophie.
FW: I would like to point out that I am an descendant of Grandma Sophie, as was, of course, my wife, and through us all subsequent Hohenzollerns. If William of Orange had only adopted me, you could have been ruled by us instead of the cousins, Britain! Think of what you've missed!
The Imperial Diet obligingly ratifies the status of Hanover as an electorate. I'm honestly so used to thinking of them as electors I hadn't realized it was this late a development!
Oh, I only realised this when reading the Sophie biography by Barbara Beuys, too, because the campaign to get recognized as Electors is of course a big part. (And part of the deal when future F1 marries Sophie Charlotte, i.e. he promises to support the "Hannover for Elector!" campaign once he's Elector of Brandenburg.)
Elector George/G1 did not like Eugene of Savoy at all, and that his son the Crown Prince/future G2 served with Eugene for a while solely to annoy his father! Then there's a footnote by the author to the effect of, "Well, at least one of my sources interprets the evidence that way."
I choose to believe.
It sure as hell sounds like them! Would also fit with G2 ranting in Hervey's earshot during the Philipsburg campaign of how HE would be the natural leader and successor to Eugene once the old boy kicks it or becomes otherwise incapacitated, but he can't be there, and stupid brother-in-law FW is, and IT IS JUST NOT FAIR.
I think it's worth pointing out the religious situation of James' various children to
cahn, and how this impacts the English succession, not to mention that the story contains some gossipy sensationalism.So, James: second son of the executed Charles I., shared exile with brother Charles the future II, returns with Charles when the Restoration happens - and almost immediately afterwards gets Anne Hyde pregnant, who is the daughter of Charles' Chancellor, Sir Edward Hyde.
Gossip: Aha! Scheming Vizir alert! Guess that guy has his eyes on the succession!
Gossip: *is dead wrong, but fits the climate of the times. When Charles' marriage with Catherine of Braganza won't produce any living offspring, while Charles has illegitimate children galore, Anne's father will be accused by gossip of having matched Charles knowingly to an infertile woman, which is absolutely insane*
Meanwhile, James: I don't want to marry a girl I got pregnant ahead of marriage anyway. She's not worthy of me.
Sam Pepys, Diarist, chronicler of the era, records this quote in his diary: "A man doesn't put on a hat he shat in."
Charles II: You're marrying the girl. I'm famous for my lack of morals in other things, but I actually draw the line here. Considering I like women out of bed as well as in it.
James: marries Anne Hyde teeth clenched. They have an unhappy marriage which for the purpose of this summary produces two living and surviving daughters, Mary and Anne, both, and this is important, raised Protestant.
James: becomes a Catholic. There is much upset, but after years and years of to-ing and thro-ing, Parliament is still willing to accept him as next in the succession, precisely because both his surviving offspring remain Protestant. Both daughters get married to impeccably Protestant chaps, Mary to her cousin William of Orange (son of Charles' and James' dead sister), and Anne to Prince George of Denmark.
Anne Hyde: Dies.
James: remarries, this time a Catholic Italian Duchess, Mary of Modena
Brits: Not happy, but, see above.
Mary of Modena: has babies, including, eventually, a boy, another James, who, unlike his older half sisters, is baptized a Catholic.
Charles: dies.
James: is now a Catholic King of a country convinced he'll go Mary Tudor on them. So far, people could tell themselves that it would only be temporary because after James, there are two Protestant daughters with their Protestant husbands lined up. But a male heir takes precedent over a female heir, meaning that not only do they have a Catholic King but next in line would also be a Catholic. Unless....
"Glorious Revolution"/Dutch Takeover of Britain: happens.
And James and the Catholic part of the Stuarts go into exile. Now, the next problem is that Mary and William have no living offspring, either. Younger sister Anne (the one from "The Favourite") has had lots of babies, most of whom die at birth or not too long thereafter, and the one kid who makes it beyond toddlerdom dies age 10 or thereabouts. Which means James the Catholic half brother still would inherit. Unless....
Parliament: creates an act forbidding any Catholics ever on the throne and putting it in writing that only Protestants can inherit, and specifically, Protestants who descend from...
Sophie of Hannover: Me! As daughter of the Elizabeth Stuart the Winter Queen, first cousin to Charles II. and James II., I'm the next Protestant heir. Of course, we could have gotten there faster and without any James interludes if I'd married Cousin Charles back in the day when he was an exile and broke and I was the youngest daughter of a large family, but there you go.
Anne: I grudgingly accept this, but no Hannovers ever will enter this realm while I am still alive. Especially not Sophie.
FW: I would like to point out that I am an descendant of Grandma Sophie, as was, of course, my wife, and through us all subsequent Hohenzollerns. If William of Orange had only adopted me, you could have been ruled by us instead of the cousins, Britain! Think of what you've missed!
The Imperial Diet obligingly ratifies the status of Hanover as an electorate. I'm honestly so used to thinking of them as electors I hadn't realized it was this late a development!
Oh, I only realised this when reading the Sophie biography by Barbara Beuys, too, because the campaign to get recognized as Electors is of course a big part. (And part of the deal when future F1 marries Sophie Charlotte, i.e. he promises to support the "Hannover for Elector!" campaign once he's Elector of Brandenburg.)
Elector George/G1 did not like Eugene of Savoy at all, and that his son the Crown Prince/future G2 served with Eugene for a while solely to annoy his father! Then there's a footnote by the author to the effect of, "Well, at least one of my sources interprets the evidence that way."
I choose to believe.
It sure as hell sounds like them! Would also fit with G2 ranting in Hervey's earshot during the Philipsburg campaign of how HE would be the natural leader and successor to Eugene once the old boy kicks it or becomes otherwise incapacitated, but he can't be there, and stupid brother-in-law FW is, and IT IS JUST NOT FAIR.
ETA: Building on my work last time, I calculated a value for the hypothetical offspring of Charles II and his first wife, based purely on the data set in the genealogy pasted in my original post. The problem is that the smaller your data set, the more likely you are to miss evidence of inbreeding. Since I can't go 16 generations back with 3,000 individuals, my numbers are too low.
However, I used my method on Charles II as a control, because we know a more accurate value for him based on a larger data set, and this is what I came up with:
0.18 for Charles, compared to a more accurate value of 0.254.
0.045 for hypothetical offspring.
So the more accurate value is surely higher, but not likely to be higher than 0.254, not if my method gets me a higher value for Mr. "My parents were uncle and niece and also first cousins once removed" Charles than for his "My parents were first cousins once removed and my mother wasn't all that inbred" offspring.
Caveat that when I learned this algorithm back when I was studying genetics, I didn't have to work it out on anything nearly as complicated as the Habsburgs, so I may be missing something and am open to corrections.
However, I used my method on Charles II as a control, because we know a more accurate value for him based on a larger data set, and this is what I came up with:
0.18 for Charles, compared to a more accurate value of 0.254.
0.045 for hypothetical offspring.
So the more accurate value is surely higher, but not likely to be higher than 0.254, not if my method gets me a higher value for Mr. "My parents were uncle and niece and also first cousins once removed" Charles than for his "My parents were first cousins once removed and my mother wasn't all that inbred" offspring.
Caveat that when I learned this algorithm back when I was studying genetics, I didn't have to work it out on anything nearly as complicated as the Habsburgs, so I may be missing something and am open to corrections.
Also, just going by his letters around this time, the correspondence went thusly, only slightly paraphrased:
...this is amazing and I kind of want to read the correspondence now :)
Now I'm the only one allowed to write incest RPF in this family, like in the novella "Wälsungenblut" I wrote about German-Jewish rich twins having sex right after marrying a German-Jewish rich twin. Can't imagine why my wife's family is upset.
!
You keep churning out books each year while I'm working on them for many years, and this is majorly irksome, and I put it to you you're only doing this because you're secretly envious my novel "Buddenbrocks" is the big bestseller of our time and made me more famous than you!
LOL FOREVER
At least this new daughter might make me understand women, about whom I still don't have a clue, despite being a married man.
HA.
I must say though that all of this is making me think that I am now too old and have too much on my read pile to read to spend any more time reading books written by That Kind of Guy.
Although this is making me want to go back and finish listening to Britten's Death in Venice (which I liked but never finished listening to), so :P
...this is amazing and I kind of want to read the correspondence now :)
Now I'm the only one allowed to write incest RPF in this family, like in the novella "Wälsungenblut" I wrote about German-Jewish rich twins having sex right after marrying a German-Jewish rich twin. Can't imagine why my wife's family is upset.
!
You keep churning out books each year while I'm working on them for many years, and this is majorly irksome, and I put it to you you're only doing this because you're secretly envious my novel "Buddenbrocks" is the big bestseller of our time and made me more famous than you!
LOL FOREVER
At least this new daughter might make me understand women, about whom I still don't have a clue, despite being a married man.
HA.
I must say though that all of this is making me think that I am now too old and have too much on my read pile to read to spend any more time reading books written by That Kind of Guy.
Although this is making me want to go back and finish listening to Britten's Death in Venice (which I liked but never finished listening to), so :P
Note that Belgium and the area around it is the Spanish Netherlands, which in our period are the Austrian Netherlands. That's because of this war!
Oh heh, I knew it used to be the Spanish Netherlands because (of course) of Don Carlos, where you may remember it is a major plot point that Posa is really into Flanders and its mistreatment under Philip II. But it never occurred to me to question how it became not-the-Spanish-Netherlands, whoops. :)
(just a heads up that I might not be super around in salon for the next, uhh, month or two, but I am still definitely reading!)
Oh heh, I knew it used to be the Spanish Netherlands because (of course) of Don Carlos, where you may remember it is a major plot point that Posa is really into Flanders and its mistreatment under Philip II. But it never occurred to me to question how it became not-the-Spanish-Netherlands, whoops. :)
(just a heads up that I might not be super around in salon for the next, uhh, month or two, but I am still definitely reading!)
Poor Philip - well, except that he seems to have found wives who could match his emotional needs, which as far as the royal marriage lottery is concerned actually makes him lucky Philip, I guess.
Yeah, although I think he probably helped the cause quite a lot. He's supposed to have fallen in love with both of them at first sight, suggesting he was willing to take what he could get. The rush on the second marriage was supposed to be because of his insatiable sexual needs, for which read his emotional needs, so again, desperate. And finally, him letting them tell him what to do must have increased the odds they were willing to put in the effort of meeting him halfway. (This is why it's hard to tell how his wives, who surely knew which side their bread was buttered on, actually felt. Though at the very least, I imagine they knew they had won the royal marriage lottery for reals, and that might have inspired some genuine affection.)
Again, this is all without having read the primary sources, but, based on the data I have, it seems like he was desperate and pliable when it came to his wives.
That all makes a lot of sense, honestly.
Yeah, although I think he probably helped the cause quite a lot. He's supposed to have fallen in love with both of them at first sight, suggesting he was willing to take what he could get. The rush on the second marriage was supposed to be because of his insatiable sexual needs, for which read his emotional needs, so again, desperate. And finally, him letting them tell him what to do must have increased the odds they were willing to put in the effort of meeting him halfway. (This is why it's hard to tell how his wives, who surely knew which side their bread was buttered on, actually felt. Though at the very least, I imagine they knew they had won the royal marriage lottery for reals, and that might have inspired some genuine affection.)
Again, this is all without having read the primary sources, but, based on the data I have, it seems like he was desperate and pliable when it came to his wives.
That all makes a lot of sense, honestly.
:D I really like the Shaw! (Shaw is another in my long list of holes in my cultural literacy -- I've read a couple of his plays and enjoyed them, but there are a lot more, and as usual I should actually maybe see a play someday...)
I think it's worth pointing out the religious situation of James' various children to [personal profile] cahn, and how this impacts the English succession, not to mention that the story contains some gossipy sensationalism.
...I am feeling seen :P :D Why yes, I am still in this for the gossipy sensationalism, thank you for indulging me :D
...I am feeling seen :P :D Why yes, I am still in this for the gossipy sensationalism, thank you for indulging me :D
You're most welcome! Have some more entertaining gossipy quotes. Charles II, always good for a quip, about Anne's husband, George of Denmark:
"I have tried him drunk, and I have tried him sober and there is nothing in him".
When James II found himself ursurped by one daughter (Mary) and her husband (William of Orange), here's what happened with his other son in law, according to wiki:
George accompanied the King's troops to Salisbury in mid-November, but other nobles and their soldiers soon deserted James for William. At each defection, George apparently exclaimed, "Est-il possible?" (Is it possible?). He abandoned James on 24 November, and sided with William."So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
Mondieu, say I. As for James' other Protestant son-in-law, William and Mary had a good marriage for their age. However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway. After Mary's death, said rumors intensified, especially since he had two male Dutch courtiers whom he favored and was close to, thereby allowing the English aristocracy to combine xenophobia and homophobia. Wiki again:
William's young protégé, Keppel, aroused more gossip and suspicion, being 20 years William's junior, strikingly handsome, and having risen from the post of a royal page to an earldom with some ease.[114] Portland wrote to William in 1697 that "the kindness which your Majesty has for a young man, and the way in which you seem to authorise his liberties ... make the world say things I am ashamed to hear."This, he said, was "tarnishing a reputation which has never before been subject to such accusations". William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
We hear you, William. Historians I think are still divided whether he simply was a childless man looking for son substitutes - remember, he was positively impressed with young FW for this reason, too -, or a gay/bi man who, once widowed, thought "to hell with caution, I'm going to have male favourites in my last years".
"I have tried him drunk, and I have tried him sober and there is nothing in him".
When James II found himself ursurped by one daughter (Mary) and her husband (William of Orange), here's what happened with his other son in law, according to wiki:
George accompanied the King's troops to Salisbury in mid-November, but other nobles and their soldiers soon deserted James for William. At each defection, George apparently exclaimed, "Est-il possible?" (Is it possible?). He abandoned James on 24 November, and sided with William."So 'Est-il possible' is gone too", James supposedly remarked.
Mondieu, say I. As for James' other Protestant son-in-law, William and Mary had a good marriage for their age. However, since he had only one female mistress in his life (while Uncle Charles and Uncle James were merrily screwing around), rumors started (mostly by his Jacobite enemies) that maybe his preferences ran to the male form anyway. After Mary's death, said rumors intensified, especially since he had two male Dutch courtiers whom he favored and was close to, thereby allowing the English aristocracy to combine xenophobia and homophobia. Wiki again:
William's young protégé, Keppel, aroused more gossip and suspicion, being 20 years William's junior, strikingly handsome, and having risen from the post of a royal page to an earldom with some ease.[114] Portland wrote to William in 1697 that "the kindness which your Majesty has for a young man, and the way in which you seem to authorise his liberties ... make the world say things I am ashamed to hear."This, he said, was "tarnishing a reputation which has never before been subject to such accusations". William tersely dismissed these suggestions, however, saying, "It seems to me very extraordinary that it should be impossible to have esteem and regard for a young man without it being criminal."
We hear you, William. Historians I think are still divided whether he simply was a childless man looking for son substitutes - remember, he was positively impressed with young FW for this reason, too -, or a gay/bi man who, once widowed, thought "to hell with caution, I'm going to have male favourites in my last years".
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
mildred_of_midgard
2021-05-20 01:36 pm (UTC)(link)
We hear you, William. Historians I think are still divided
I think I remember Horowski saying they're still divided, yeah.
I think I remember Horowski saying they're still divided, yeah.
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Hanovers and Stuarts
mildred_of_midgard
2021-05-20 01:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Lol! Thank goodness for Selena, because I'm on a military history kick rn, sorry not sorry. :P Currently prepping my write-ups on Blenheim and Malplaquet (which, among other things, involves rereading the Malplaquet chapter in Horowski, which is one reason it's taking a few days).
The correspondence is great and I wish there was an English translation. Meanwhile, you'll have to do with my my translation/selection from their key WWI letters. On the softer side, in his very last novel, "Der Atem", Heinrich wrote a death scene for an older sister speaking to her ambitious younger sister, and it's very obviously himself talking to his younger brother, a love declaration.
I made it easy for you, I wasn't ambitious.A very great flaw. You were disgruntled that I avoided the competition, instead of putting up resistence and then being defeated. This continued until you finally accepted that success was your, not my nature. Mine, if I have to embarass myself while dying, was arrogance. Not to compete for the world's honors is arrogance. (...) Marie-Louise, ma soeur bien-aimée, tu m'as vaincue et bien vaincue, est-se là une raison pour me hair? Aussi m'aimes-tu. (...) We are allowed to love each other again. Wasn't it always the case, with all that happened to us, that we loved each other as much as we hated each other?
Wälsungenblut: just imagine: you're the Pringsheims, one of Munich's top families, host of great salons. Your daughter has married the young, good-looking (as a young man, he was) and incredibly successful author of the season. ... And then he pulls a stunt like that. Mind you, Katia Mann had to put up with a lot in general, including, as they both figured out, a husband who on the one hand was gay (and not just "in a phase") but on the other determined not to ever sexually act on it. (The most he ever did was touch the fingertips of a waiter he adored as an old man.) "Katja very understanding" is a frequent diary entry. (Their oldest son Klaus, otoh, was not only gay but determined to have sex whenever and with whomever he wanted. This made one annoying critic conclude that since in his opinion Thomas was a genius and Klaus "just a talent" that repressing your sex urge is good for literature.) And later of course, there was the perma stress of living with Germany's Greatest Writer (TM) (In both senses) (TM about TM, when arriving in California in exile: "Wo ich bin, da ist die deutsche Kultur.") He was treated accordingly, and Katja was the gatekeeper of the literary court, so to speak.
I must say though that all of this is making me think that I am now too old and have too much on my read pile to read to spend any more time reading books written by That Kind of Guy.
I'm not going to make the case for Thomas Mann here based on my own feelings. (He has so many fans who can do it instead, and there are so many books and authors I care more deeply about you can read.) I will say, though, that it's a shame he never wrote his planned Fritz novel, because between the burning ambition and vanity, the live long brother complex, being good at irony and sarcasm and of course the gay orientation, they would have been a good match. (Except for the Fritzian Francophilia. That was Heinrich Mann's thing. TM was fluent in French and French literature as par the course for a well educated German of his time, but he didn't really love either the country or its literature.)
One more letter quote from Thomas, this time not to, but about Heinrich, written in 1917:
"The brother problem is the true, or at least the strongest problem of my life. Such closeness and such a strong inner repulsion is tormenting me. Everything is radical kinship and insult at the same time - I can hardly bear to talk about it."
I made it easy for you, I wasn't ambitious.A very great flaw. You were disgruntled that I avoided the competition, instead of putting up resistence and then being defeated. This continued until you finally accepted that success was your, not my nature. Mine, if I have to embarass myself while dying, was arrogance. Not to compete for the world's honors is arrogance. (...) Marie-Louise, ma soeur bien-aimée, tu m'as vaincue et bien vaincue, est-se là une raison pour me hair? Aussi m'aimes-tu. (...) We are allowed to love each other again. Wasn't it always the case, with all that happened to us, that we loved each other as much as we hated each other?
Wälsungenblut: just imagine: you're the Pringsheims, one of Munich's top families, host of great salons. Your daughter has married the young, good-looking (as a young man, he was) and incredibly successful author of the season. ... And then he pulls a stunt like that. Mind you, Katia Mann had to put up with a lot in general, including, as they both figured out, a husband who on the one hand was gay (and not just "in a phase") but on the other determined not to ever sexually act on it. (The most he ever did was touch the fingertips of a waiter he adored as an old man.) "Katja very understanding" is a frequent diary entry. (Their oldest son Klaus, otoh, was not only gay but determined to have sex whenever and with whomever he wanted. This made one annoying critic conclude that since in his opinion Thomas was a genius and Klaus "just a talent" that repressing your sex urge is good for literature.) And later of course, there was the perma stress of living with Germany's Greatest Writer (TM) (In both senses) (TM about TM, when arriving in California in exile: "Wo ich bin, da ist die deutsche Kultur.") He was treated accordingly, and Katja was the gatekeeper of the literary court, so to speak.
I must say though that all of this is making me think that I am now too old and have too much on my read pile to read to spend any more time reading books written by That Kind of Guy.
I'm not going to make the case for Thomas Mann here based on my own feelings. (He has so many fans who can do it instead, and there are so many books and authors I care more deeply about you can read.) I will say, though, that it's a shame he never wrote his planned Fritz novel, because between the burning ambition and vanity, the live long brother complex, being good at irony and sarcasm and of course the gay orientation, they would have been a good match. (Except for the Fritzian Francophilia. That was Heinrich Mann's thing. TM was fluent in French and French literature as par the course for a well educated German of his time, but he didn't really love either the country or its literature.)
One more letter quote from Thomas, this time not to, but about Heinrich, written in 1917:
"The brother problem is the true, or at least the strongest problem of my life. Such closeness and such a strong inner repulsion is tormenting me. Everything is radical kinship and insult at the same time - I can hardly bear to talk about it."
Yes, I thought of you and Don Carlos! I knew you would have a point of reference.
So a little backstory for the Spanish Netherlands here (sorry for the lack of gossipy sensationalism, this is not my period :P).
Late Middle Ages
Large chunks of the Low Countries belong to the Dukes of Burgundy.
Right around the time of Ash
The Burgundian male line dies out. The female line has marged with the Habsburgs via their "You, happy Austria, marry" policy. But the French want to invoke Salic Law and absorb Burgundian possessions into France.
At the end of the ensuing war, the French end up with Burgundy, and the Austrians the Habsburg Netherlands, aka territory that includes parts of what today are the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and Germany.
Early Renaissance
Through further fortunate marriages, the Habsburgs end up with Charles V in control of Austria, the Habsburg Netherlands, and Spain, among other places.
Mid sixteenth century
The Habsburgs split into German and Spanish lines. Your Philip gets Spain and the now Spanish Netherlands.
But the Reformation is in full swing now! Many people in the Netherlands are prepared to kill and be killed to remain Protestants. For eighty years. Because Philip is not prepared to geben Gedankenfreiheit. :P
The Eighty Years' War between the Netherlands and Spain happens. The northern Spanish Netherlands manage to secede and form the Dutch Republic (today's Netherlands), extremely Protestant. (Until WWI, Wikipedia tells me, when Catholicism experienced a resurgence.) The southern Spanish Netherlands, today's Belgium and Luxembourg, mostly, remain Spanish and predominantly Catholic.
1714
At the end of the War of the Spanish Succession, the Spanish Netherlands become the Austrian Netherlands. Not to be confused with what we call the Netherlands, which are the United Provinces of the Netherlands in our period.
So a little backstory for the Spanish Netherlands here (sorry for the lack of gossipy sensationalism, this is not my period :P).
Late Middle Ages
Large chunks of the Low Countries belong to the Dukes of Burgundy.
Right around the time of Ash
The Burgundian male line dies out. The female line has marged with the Habsburgs via their "You, happy Austria, marry" policy. But the French want to invoke Salic Law and absorb Burgundian possessions into France.
At the end of the ensuing war, the French end up with Burgundy, and the Austrians the Habsburg Netherlands, aka territory that includes parts of what today are the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, and Germany.
Early Renaissance
Through further fortunate marriages, the Habsburgs end up with Charles V in control of Austria, the Habsburg Netherlands, and Spain, among other places.
Mid sixteenth century
The Habsburgs split into German and Spanish lines. Your Philip gets Spain and the now Spanish Netherlands.
But the Reformation is in full swing now! Many people in the Netherlands are prepared to kill and be killed to remain Protestants. For eighty years. Because Philip is not prepared to geben Gedankenfreiheit. :P
The Eighty Years' War between the Netherlands and Spain happens. The northern Spanish Netherlands manage to secede and form the Dutch Republic (today's Netherlands), extremely Protestant. (Until WWI, Wikipedia tells me, when Catholicism experienced a resurgence.) The southern Spanish Netherlands, today's Belgium and Luxembourg, mostly, remain Spanish and predominantly Catholic.
1714
At the end of the War of the Spanish Succession, the Spanish Netherlands become the Austrian Netherlands. Not to be confused with what we call the Netherlands, which are the United Provinces of the Netherlands in our period.
Political Background
As we've seen, the turn of the eighteenth century is when the larger German principalities are doing their level best to move up in the world. August of Saxony becomes king of Poland in 1694. Hanover becomes an electorate in 1708, and the elector becomes king of Great Britain in 1714. Brandenburg becomes the kingdom of Prussia in 1701 (with French recognition in 1714).
Naturally, the Elector of Bavaria doesn't want to be left behind! He wants to be Holy Roman Emperor.
Maximilian II Emmanuel, of the Wittelsbach family: Hey, Leopold, how about it? Me as the next emperor? You're 60, I'm 38, we can make this work.
Leopold: Are you a Habsburg? The word you are looking for here is 'no'.
Max Emmanuel: Louis XIV?
Louis: Depends. Will you help me fight the Habsburgs?
Max Emmanuel: Did you say 'fight the guy who just said he wouldn't support me as emperor'? You're on!
Louis: Deal! Let's see what we can do about making you emperor with French backing.
So now it's 1704. Bavaria is allied with France, supporting Philip V (Bourbon, grandson of Louis XIV), against Austria and much of the HRE, supporting archduke Charles (Habsburg, son of Leopold, future father of MT).
Strategery
The problem with Bavaria, if you're on the Allied side, is that it's frighteningly close to Austria. The French and Bavarians are now making an advance in the general direction of Vienna.
Leopold: SOS! SOS!
Eugene: Shit, I'm in Italy. Also, my army is smaller than theirs.
Marlborough: I'm in the Low Countries! Like, hundreds of miles away.
Leopold: SOMEONE DO SOMETHING.
Marlborough: Your Majesty, Queen Anne. Permission to march the army 250 miles/400 km south to rescue our claimant to the Spanish throne.
Anne: Do it!
Dutch: What about us?? You're leaving?! The French will invade!
Marlborough: But if I leave, with my giant army, the French will have to divert troops south too. Don't worry, you'll be fine.
Dutch: *mutter mutter okay fine*
Marlborough: Attention France! I am invading your country this summer!
France: *tries to stop the invasion*
Marlborough: *marches southeast into Bavaria while the French are busy trying to prevent him from marching southwest into France*
Marlborough: *arrives on the Danube* Fooled you!
At the same time, Eugene: *is hurrying north from Italy*
On the Spot
The march down the Rhine and east along the first part of the Danube was, I'm told, a strategic and logistical masterpiece, in which Marlborough deceived the French and avoided French attack, supplied his army very efficiently along the route, and arrived with his forces intact in just 5 weeks.
The best map of the march, from The War of the Spanish Succession:
(Sorry about the quality, but it's still more readable than the map in Invincible Generals, which goes for detail over clarity.)
Eugene: *is now also in the vicinity with his troops*
Marlborough and Eugene: *unite*
According to my Invincible Generals book:
So harmonious and unselfish was their [Eugene and Marlborough's] co-operation that popular medals were struck depicting them as Castor and Pollux.
So now the job of Eugene and Marlborough is to interpose their army between Franco-Bavarian forces and Vienna, and either maneuver them away or crush them so that they don't have the resources to assault Vienna.
This they do. Blenheim is the second major battle fought between these two armies in this region within a few weeks. The first one was a Marlborough victory at high cost. (And highly criticized by many people. Including Sophia of Hanover, due to high Hanoverian losses during the battle.)
The second one is the battle of...well. Selena talked about this. Höchstädt to Germans, Blenheim to English speakers.
Getting Ready to Fight
Here's the map of the battle, taken from my Invincible Generals book (source of the best map of this battle of all my sources):
In the lower right is the river Danube. Near it, is a hamlet called Blenheim (Blindheim). This is a fortified location. The French had positioned their right wing next to Blenheim, and stationed some reserve troops inside. Then they spread out to the left, across what is called the plain of Höchstädt. The actual town of Höchstädt is off to the southwest along the river; Sir Not Appearing on This Map. (You can see the "To Höchstädt" annotation near the legend on the map, with an arrow pointing southwest.)
So the French have a superior position and slightly superior numbers (10% more troops and 50% more cannon).
What this means is that the French aren't expecting a battle. They're expecting a normal 17th/18th century campaign of chessboard-style maneuvering. But Marlborough is a more aggressive general than most of his contemporaries. Like Fritz, he will try to force a battle, and like Fritz, he will sometimes suffer high casualties (one reason contemporaries liked to avoid battles), and as we've seen, his most recent battle received criticism for just this reason.
Central Attack Tactics Are Exactly Straight
At Blenheim, Marlborough does a thing that strikes you as very weird if you're used to 18th century military history: he puts most of his cavalry in the middle instead of on the flanks. He makes it work!
He attacks frontally, advancing his line forward. He successfully forces the crossing of the small river (the Nebel) between the two armies, and then he attacks Blenheim. Here's the map again so you don't have to scroll up:
He fails to take Blenheim in the early stages of the battle, but forces a lot of the French reserves to occupy it to hold it. Then he bombards the center of the French line, and as soon as it starts to weaken, he sends in the cavalry.
The French give way and flee to the Danube, and the reserve troops, in Blenheim, watching their compatriots abandon the field, surrender unconditionally.
Aftermath
To quote Versailles memoirist St. Simon, whom we've met before:
For six days, the King remained in uncertainty as to the real losses that had been sustained. Everybody was afraid to write bad news; all the letters which from time to time arrived, gave, therefore, but an unsatisfactory account of what had taken place. The King used every means in his power to obtain some news...Neither the King nor anybody else could understand, from what had reached them, how it was that an entire army had been placed inside a village, and had surrendered itself by a signed capitulation. It puzzled every brain.
I bet, St. Simon.
In this case, casualties of the French and Allies were nearly equal in terms of killed and wounded (often not counted separately in 18th century battles, because "number of combat-ready soldiers left in my army" was the figure everyone cared about), but the 14,000 surrendering French soldiers really made this a victory for the Allies.
Also, the Bavarian court evacuates, because the Allies now rule the land.
Blenheim Palace
As Selena noted, Marlborough was rewarded with some land in England and money to build the Palace of Blenheim, pictured below, on it:
Source: Wikipedia
Controversial architectural style has been controversial throughout the ages. Tastes are divided on the matter. I leave you to form your own opinions. :P
Naming Things is One of the Two Hard Problems
As for Blenheim vs. Blindheim vs. Höchstädt, well. Blindheim, we've seen, is the name of the village that was fought over during the battle. Höchstädt is the name of the plain that the Franco-Bavarian forces were posted on, and also the name of the town further off. Höchstädt is a bigger town than Blindheim and also the site of a previous battle, and for both reasons was probably more familiar to Germans than the tiny hamlet of Blindheim. Blindheim, in contrast, was the village directly on the battlefield, and is pronounceable for English speakers who want to name palaces after the battle.
German wiki speculates that Blenheim vs. Blindheim is because the arriving English relied on French scouts/guides, and thus it was the French who first mispronounced the name. No citation given. (Google Translate tried telling me the English relied on French reconnaissance aircraft, which puzzled me until I viewed the page in German, whereupon I saw "Aufklärer" and decided it was humans doing the reconnoitering. ;) )
Wittelsbach Sequel
Though partly as a result of this battle, Max Emmanuel fails in his ambitions to become Holy Roman Emperor, his son manages to interrupt the Habsburg streak with a brief and lusterless reign as Charles VII from 1742 to 1745, during the War of the Austrian Succession, because better a Wittelsbach than a WOMAN.
As we've seen, the turn of the eighteenth century is when the larger German principalities are doing their level best to move up in the world. August of Saxony becomes king of Poland in 1694. Hanover becomes an electorate in 1708, and the elector becomes king of Great Britain in 1714. Brandenburg becomes the kingdom of Prussia in 1701 (with French recognition in 1714).
Naturally, the Elector of Bavaria doesn't want to be left behind! He wants to be Holy Roman Emperor.
Maximilian II Emmanuel, of the Wittelsbach family: Hey, Leopold, how about it? Me as the next emperor? You're 60, I'm 38, we can make this work.
Leopold: Are you a Habsburg? The word you are looking for here is 'no'.
Max Emmanuel: Louis XIV?
Louis: Depends. Will you help me fight the Habsburgs?
Max Emmanuel: Did you say 'fight the guy who just said he wouldn't support me as emperor'? You're on!
Louis: Deal! Let's see what we can do about making you emperor with French backing.
So now it's 1704. Bavaria is allied with France, supporting Philip V (Bourbon, grandson of Louis XIV), against Austria and much of the HRE, supporting archduke Charles (Habsburg, son of Leopold, future father of MT).
Strategery
The problem with Bavaria, if you're on the Allied side, is that it's frighteningly close to Austria. The French and Bavarians are now making an advance in the general direction of Vienna.
Leopold: SOS! SOS!
Eugene: Shit, I'm in Italy. Also, my army is smaller than theirs.
Marlborough: I'm in the Low Countries! Like, hundreds of miles away.
Leopold: SOMEONE DO SOMETHING.
Marlborough: Your Majesty, Queen Anne. Permission to march the army 250 miles/400 km south to rescue our claimant to the Spanish throne.
Anne: Do it!
Dutch: What about us?? You're leaving?! The French will invade!
Marlborough: But if I leave, with my giant army, the French will have to divert troops south too. Don't worry, you'll be fine.
Dutch: *mutter mutter okay fine*
Marlborough: Attention France! I am invading your country this summer!
France: *tries to stop the invasion*
Marlborough: *marches southeast into Bavaria while the French are busy trying to prevent him from marching southwest into France*
Marlborough: *arrives on the Danube* Fooled you!
At the same time, Eugene: *is hurrying north from Italy*
On the Spot
The march down the Rhine and east along the first part of the Danube was, I'm told, a strategic and logistical masterpiece, in which Marlborough deceived the French and avoided French attack, supplied his army very efficiently along the route, and arrived with his forces intact in just 5 weeks.
The best map of the march, from The War of the Spanish Succession:
(Sorry about the quality, but it's still more readable than the map in Invincible Generals, which goes for detail over clarity.)
Eugene: *is now also in the vicinity with his troops*
Marlborough and Eugene: *unite*
According to my Invincible Generals book:
So harmonious and unselfish was their [Eugene and Marlborough's] co-operation that popular medals were struck depicting them as Castor and Pollux.
So now the job of Eugene and Marlborough is to interpose their army between Franco-Bavarian forces and Vienna, and either maneuver them away or crush them so that they don't have the resources to assault Vienna.
This they do. Blenheim is the second major battle fought between these two armies in this region within a few weeks. The first one was a Marlborough victory at high cost. (And highly criticized by many people. Including Sophia of Hanover, due to high Hanoverian losses during the battle.)
The second one is the battle of...well. Selena talked about this. Höchstädt to Germans, Blenheim to English speakers.
Getting Ready to Fight
Here's the map of the battle, taken from my Invincible Generals book (source of the best map of this battle of all my sources):
In the lower right is the river Danube. Near it, is a hamlet called Blenheim (Blindheim). This is a fortified location. The French had positioned their right wing next to Blenheim, and stationed some reserve troops inside. Then they spread out to the left, across what is called the plain of Höchstädt. The actual town of Höchstädt is off to the southwest along the river; Sir Not Appearing on This Map. (You can see the "To Höchstädt" annotation near the legend on the map, with an arrow pointing southwest.)
So the French have a superior position and slightly superior numbers (10% more troops and 50% more cannon).
What this means is that the French aren't expecting a battle. They're expecting a normal 17th/18th century campaign of chessboard-style maneuvering. But Marlborough is a more aggressive general than most of his contemporaries. Like Fritz, he will try to force a battle, and like Fritz, he will sometimes suffer high casualties (one reason contemporaries liked to avoid battles), and as we've seen, his most recent battle received criticism for just this reason.
Central Attack Tactics Are Exactly Straight
At Blenheim, Marlborough does a thing that strikes you as very weird if you're used to 18th century military history: he puts most of his cavalry in the middle instead of on the flanks. He makes it work!
He attacks frontally, advancing his line forward. He successfully forces the crossing of the small river (the Nebel) between the two armies, and then he attacks Blenheim. Here's the map again so you don't have to scroll up:
He fails to take Blenheim in the early stages of the battle, but forces a lot of the French reserves to occupy it to hold it. Then he bombards the center of the French line, and as soon as it starts to weaken, he sends in the cavalry.
The French give way and flee to the Danube, and the reserve troops, in Blenheim, watching their compatriots abandon the field, surrender unconditionally.
Aftermath
To quote Versailles memoirist St. Simon, whom we've met before:
For six days, the King remained in uncertainty as to the real losses that had been sustained. Everybody was afraid to write bad news; all the letters which from time to time arrived, gave, therefore, but an unsatisfactory account of what had taken place. The King used every means in his power to obtain some news...Neither the King nor anybody else could understand, from what had reached them, how it was that an entire army had been placed inside a village, and had surrendered itself by a signed capitulation. It puzzled every brain.
I bet, St. Simon.
In this case, casualties of the French and Allies were nearly equal in terms of killed and wounded (often not counted separately in 18th century battles, because "number of combat-ready soldiers left in my army" was the figure everyone cared about), but the 14,000 surrendering French soldiers really made this a victory for the Allies.
Also, the Bavarian court evacuates, because the Allies now rule the land.
Blenheim Palace
As Selena noted, Marlborough was rewarded with some land in England and money to build the Palace of Blenheim, pictured below, on it:
Source: Wikipedia
Controversial architectural style has been controversial throughout the ages. Tastes are divided on the matter. I leave you to form your own opinions. :P
Naming Things is One of the Two Hard Problems
As for Blenheim vs. Blindheim vs. Höchstädt, well. Blindheim, we've seen, is the name of the village that was fought over during the battle. Höchstädt is the name of the plain that the Franco-Bavarian forces were posted on, and also the name of the town further off. Höchstädt is a bigger town than Blindheim and also the site of a previous battle, and for both reasons was probably more familiar to Germans than the tiny hamlet of Blindheim. Blindheim, in contrast, was the village directly on the battlefield, and is pronounceable for English speakers who want to name palaces after the battle.
German wiki speculates that Blenheim vs. Blindheim is because the arriving English relied on French scouts/guides, and thus it was the French who first mispronounced the name. No citation given. (Google Translate tried telling me the English relied on French reconnaissance aircraft, which puzzled me until I viewed the page in German, whereupon I saw "Aufklärer" and decided it was humans doing the reconnoitering. ;) )
Wittelsbach Sequel
Though partly as a result of this battle, Max Emmanuel fails in his ambitions to become Holy Roman Emperor, his son manages to interrupt the Habsburg streak with a brief and lusterless reign as Charles VII from 1742 to 1745, during the War of the Austrian Succession, because better a Wittelsbach than a WOMAN.
Edited 2021-05-21 22:41 (UTC)
Re: War of the Spanish Succession: Royal Turnover
mildred_of_midgard
2021-05-21 11:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Remember when the French royal family fell like dominoes between 1711 and 1715? They weren't the only ones! During those years, the royal families of Europe lose:
1711 Holy Roman Emperor, Prussian Crown Prince, French Dauphin
1712 New French Dauphin and his wife, New French Dauphin
1713 King of Prussia
1714 Queen Regnant of Great Britain, Queen Consort of Spain, Duke second in line to a suddenly shaky French throne
1715 King of France
That's 4 heads of state (Austria, France, GB, and Prussia), 4 heirs to the throne, the person who was doing most of the ruling in Spain, and a 2nd in line whose death nearly contributed to another war of succession.
Austria
In 1705, MT's grandfather, Emperor Leopold, who had been trying to make himself king of Spain for decades, finally dies. His oldest son, Joseph, becomes emperor. He carries on the war until he dies in 1711.
In 1711, he dies without a surviving male child (his daughters' marriages will help trigger the War of the Austrian Succession 30 years later), so his brother becomes Charles VI.
Now that he's Holy Roman Emperor, Charles' desirability in the eyes of the rest of Europe as an alternate King of Spain hits rock bottom. Suddenly, the English and Dutch are now okay with Philip V, since there's nothing they can do about it anyway, and nobody wants to revive the empire of Charles V. Except Charles VI, of course, who fights on alone, but then eventually has to give in.
Prussia
In 1711, the second son of FW & SD, named Friedrich Wilhelm, dies as a baby.
In 1713, F1 dies and FW becomes king. This is less relevant to the Spanish succession but extremely relevant to salon.
Fortunately for the F1 male line, Fritz was just born in 1712.
England
Anne dies without an heir in 1714, which means the Hanover dynasty accedes to the throne. There are some riots followed by a Jacobite rising, but the handover proceeds mostly smoothly.
Brits: We may not be huge G1 fans, but at least he's not a CATHOLIC.
France
At the start of 1711, Louis has a son, three grandsons, and two great-grandsons. The succession seems assured, and the chances that Philip V, over in Spain, would try to advance his sort-of renounced claim to the throne, are remote.
Then everyone except Philip V and future Louis XV dies by early 1714. So in 1714 all that's standing between Philip V and the French throne is:
- A 76-year-old man: Louis XIV.
- A 4-year-old kid (future Louis XV) who nearly died of measles a couple years ago and only survived because his nurse locked out the doctors.
- A treaty that Philip V just signed saying, "I pinky swear not to claim the French throne."
I say "pinky swear" because we know from the War of the Austrian Succession what a piece of paper like that is worth, and even contemporaries, who hadn't lived through that yet, were very very nervous. There could easily have been a war. There was no enforcement mechanism to make Philip V keep his word, and due to the weight of primogeniture tradition, he would have had solid support to go with his solid opposition.
Then the 76-year-old man dies.
Now it's 1715, and there's a 5-year-old kid and a piece of paper standing between Philip V and the French throne.
Would Philip have made a move if little Louis had died? I don't know, but war brought him out of his depression, and even with Louis XV on the throne and Philippe d'Orleans as regent, there was a conspiracy in France and Spain to make Philip V the regent.
You can consider it a small miracle that Louis XV survived and possibly averted the early 18th century War of the French Succession.
Spain
Poor Marie Louise of Savoy. She who was married at 12 and regent at 13-14 dies at age 25, after years of increasing illness.
Philip remarries 7 months later, as we saw.
1711 Holy Roman Emperor, Prussian Crown Prince, French Dauphin
1712 New French Dauphin and his wife, New French Dauphin
1713 King of Prussia
1714 Queen Regnant of Great Britain, Queen Consort of Spain, Duke second in line to a suddenly shaky French throne
1715 King of France
That's 4 heads of state (Austria, France, GB, and Prussia), 4 heirs to the throne, the person who was doing most of the ruling in Spain, and a 2nd in line whose death nearly contributed to another war of succession.
Austria
In 1705, MT's grandfather, Emperor Leopold, who had been trying to make himself king of Spain for decades, finally dies. His oldest son, Joseph, becomes emperor. He carries on the war until he dies in 1711.
In 1711, he dies without a surviving male child (his daughters' marriages will help trigger the War of the Austrian Succession 30 years later), so his brother becomes Charles VI.
Now that he's Holy Roman Emperor, Charles' desirability in the eyes of the rest of Europe as an alternate King of Spain hits rock bottom. Suddenly, the English and Dutch are now okay with Philip V, since there's nothing they can do about it anyway, and nobody wants to revive the empire of Charles V. Except Charles VI, of course, who fights on alone, but then eventually has to give in.
Prussia
In 1711, the second son of FW & SD, named Friedrich Wilhelm, dies as a baby.
In 1713, F1 dies and FW becomes king. This is less relevant to the Spanish succession but extremely relevant to salon.
Fortunately for the F1 male line, Fritz was just born in 1712.
England
Anne dies without an heir in 1714, which means the Hanover dynasty accedes to the throne. There are some riots followed by a Jacobite rising, but the handover proceeds mostly smoothly.
Brits: We may not be huge G1 fans, but at least he's not a CATHOLIC.
France
At the start of 1711, Louis has a son, three grandsons, and two great-grandsons. The succession seems assured, and the chances that Philip V, over in Spain, would try to advance his sort-of renounced claim to the throne, are remote.
Then everyone except Philip V and future Louis XV dies by early 1714. So in 1714 all that's standing between Philip V and the French throne is:
- A 76-year-old man: Louis XIV.
- A 4-year-old kid (future Louis XV) who nearly died of measles a couple years ago and only survived because his nurse locked out the doctors.
- A treaty that Philip V just signed saying, "I pinky swear not to claim the French throne."
I say "pinky swear" because we know from the War of the Austrian Succession what a piece of paper like that is worth, and even contemporaries, who hadn't lived through that yet, were very very nervous. There could easily have been a war. There was no enforcement mechanism to make Philip V keep his word, and due to the weight of primogeniture tradition, he would have had solid support to go with his solid opposition.
Then the 76-year-old man dies.
Now it's 1715, and there's a 5-year-old kid and a piece of paper standing between Philip V and the French throne.
Would Philip have made a move if little Louis had died? I don't know, but war brought him out of his depression, and even with Louis XV on the throne and Philippe d'Orleans as regent, there was a conspiracy in France and Spain to make Philip V the regent.
You can consider it a small miracle that Louis XV survived and possibly averted the early 18th century War of the French Succession.
Spain
Poor Marie Louise of Savoy. She who was married at 12 and regent at 13-14 dies at age 25, after years of increasing illness.
Philip remarries 7 months later, as we saw.
The Burgundian male line dies out. The female line has marged with the Habsburgs via their "You, happy Austria, marry" policy
Allow me to annotate.
Burgundy: is owned by Duke Charles the Bold, also called Charles the Rash, because he really was, and also good at pissing other rulers off. He tries in vain to have a male heir; the only surviving into adulthood offspring of his will be the daughter of his second marriage, Mary. His third wife is:
Margaret of York, sister to the English Kings Edward IV. and Richard III. Which is why she shows up in Wars of the Roses novels as supportive sister Meg (if the novel is pro York) or mean Duchess of Burgundy (pro Lancaster and/or Tudor, because Margaret, who unlike her brothers lives to get old, will troll Henry VII (Tudor), once he's won the Battle of Bosworth, defeated and killed her brother Richard, by supporting every claimant and rebel against him. For the story of this annotation, however, it's important that she was a very good stepmother, or, as the chronicles say, being only 11 years older than her stepdaughter Mary, more a "tender older sister".
Charles: Looks like I won't have any sons, curses. Maybe I should look for a husband to Mary, or the French will get my realm once I'm dead. I know! How about the son of the Holy Roman Emperor? Of course I'll make it clear who's boss.
Charles: travels in over the top splendour to the marriage negotiation summit, and starts by declaring he wants to become King and that's his price for letting the Emperor's son marry his daughter
Emperor Friedrich III (very austere, short of cash due to having had a ruinoius war against his brother in his youth, also a very cautious man in general): Yeah, no. Unlike my descendant, I'm against making wealthy trigger happy nobles into Kings. Son Max, we're leaving. The wedding is off, for now.
Max(imilian): But Mary and I exchanged portraits! Also unlike you, I'm not austere and into splendour.
F3: Beside the point. No Burgundian Kings, trust me on this. Also, they'll be back.
Louis XI "The Spider King" of France: How about Mary and my kid Charles? Granted, he's still a toddler while she's a teen, but who cares!
Charles the Bold/Rash: NEVER. *tries two alternate candidates for Mary, one of whom even shows up in Burgundy and lives there for a month, both of whom die by myserious illness*
Contemporary Gossip: Clearly, Louis has had them poisoned.
selenak: How come no one suspected F3, given whom she'd end up marrying?
Chronicles: F3 is a cautious austere bureaucrat. Louis XI is THE SPIDER KING. Enough said.
selenak: but if this was a mystery novel...
Historians: It's not.
Charles the definitely Rash: Grrr. Argh. Okay, reopening the negotiations with the Habsburgs. Also, off to fight the Swiss! *dies in battle; the Swiss get his travel treasure, which will be acquired by super merchant Jakob Fugger a generation later*
Margaret of York: Mary, I think you should get married as quickly as possible, because...
Leaders of Dutch Parliament: A WOMAN? Yeah, no. Let's try to squeeze as much concessions out of her as we can. It's not like she can fight, right?
Louis: You better marry my kid Charles now, Missy. My army is assembling.
Dutch: Execute two of Mary's advisors in front of her, intend to force her into marriage of their choice
Mary *writes secret letter*: Dear former potential husband Archduke Max, if you show up here right away, we're back on!
Maximilian: *to the rescue*
Contemporaries: As she's the richest heiress of Europe, he wasn't exactly selfless there, But we'll admit they're both young and charming and fall for each other very quickly.
True nerd fact: as Mary's every day languages were Flemish and French, and Max' was German (this was before France became so culturally dominant that every European prince spoke French), they first talked to each other in Latin (they were both well educated enough for this) until Max had learned enough French and Flemish to switch to these instead. Mary did not learn German.
Mary and Max: *produce three children, one of whom dies as a baby, and one of whom is a girl, the very capable Margaret (named after Margaret of York) of Austria, future regent. Alas, the only boy is future jerk Philip le Bel*
War with France: is an on/off thing throughout this time
Mary: *despite being an experienced rider, has a hunting accident which means she dies at only 25 years of age*
Max: *is heartbroken*
Historians: We will concede it's possible he never gets over her death emotionally, despite, as a Habsburg, remarrying two more times. Our reasons for believing this are less the poetical epics about her he comissions and co-writes and more that after his own death decades later, he'll order his heart to be buried with Mary in far away Burgundy, not in Vienna. And a statue of her stands in his Austrian tomb.
Max: Otherwise is famous as "The Last Knight", for solving his eternal money problems by getting into debt with Swabian merchant Jakob Fugger (they are the same age exactly, btw), who will end up financing the election of Maximilian's grandson as HRE, but before that happens*
Max: *manages to marry his son Philip (le Bel) to the next great heiress in Europe, who is Juana, daughter of Isabel of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon*
Philip: *is a jerk and starts the campaign to make his wife Juana look crazy so he can rule in her stead, as Juana inherits Castile from her mother Isabel*
Philip: *dies young*
Ferdinand of Aragon: *picks up where Philip left off, because if Juana is crazy, HE gets to rule in Castile*
Flanders: What about us?
Max: You'll be ruled by baby Charles the future V., which means by my sensible daughter Margaret of Austria as regent while I'm busy waging war in Italy. Grandson Charles will grow up in the Netherlands and will hardly know his mother, which is how the following happens:
Ferdinand: *dies*
Juana: So does my sanity get reevaluated and do I get out of prison now?
15 years old Charles, meeting his mother for the first time since toddlerdom: I don't think so. I kind of want to rule Castile and Aragon by myself, and if you are sane, Castile is yours, and so are its overseas new colonies. Sorry, but: you're clearly still insane.
Maximilian: *dies as well, having secured the vote for Charles as German King and HRE courtesy of his financial buddy Jakob Fugger*
Charles V, HRE: *now has the first realm in which the sun never sets, before Victorian Britain steals that moniker*
The musical and subtitled in English vids to go with this:
Mary of Burgundy (vid using footage from the series "Maximilian")
The Rise of the Habsburg Dynasty (using footage of the German series "Maximilian" about Max and Mary, and the Spanish Series "Isabel" (for young Juana and Philip le Bel) and "Carlos Rey Emperador" (the obvious)
Allow me to annotate.
Burgundy: is owned by Duke Charles the Bold, also called Charles the Rash, because he really was, and also good at pissing other rulers off. He tries in vain to have a male heir; the only surviving into adulthood offspring of his will be the daughter of his second marriage, Mary. His third wife is:
Margaret of York, sister to the English Kings Edward IV. and Richard III. Which is why she shows up in Wars of the Roses novels as supportive sister Meg (if the novel is pro York) or mean Duchess of Burgundy (pro Lancaster and/or Tudor, because Margaret, who unlike her brothers lives to get old, will troll Henry VII (Tudor), once he's won the Battle of Bosworth, defeated and killed her brother Richard, by supporting every claimant and rebel against him. For the story of this annotation, however, it's important that she was a very good stepmother, or, as the chronicles say, being only 11 years older than her stepdaughter Mary, more a "tender older sister".
Charles: Looks like I won't have any sons, curses. Maybe I should look for a husband to Mary, or the French will get my realm once I'm dead. I know! How about the son of the Holy Roman Emperor? Of course I'll make it clear who's boss.
Charles: travels in over the top splendour to the marriage negotiation summit, and starts by declaring he wants to become King and that's his price for letting the Emperor's son marry his daughter
Emperor Friedrich III (very austere, short of cash due to having had a ruinoius war against his brother in his youth, also a very cautious man in general): Yeah, no. Unlike my descendant, I'm against making wealthy trigger happy nobles into Kings. Son Max, we're leaving. The wedding is off, for now.
Max(imilian): But Mary and I exchanged portraits! Also unlike you, I'm not austere and into splendour.
F3: Beside the point. No Burgundian Kings, trust me on this. Also, they'll be back.
Louis XI "The Spider King" of France: How about Mary and my kid Charles? Granted, he's still a toddler while she's a teen, but who cares!
Charles the Bold/Rash: NEVER. *tries two alternate candidates for Mary, one of whom even shows up in Burgundy and lives there for a month, both of whom die by myserious illness*
Contemporary Gossip: Clearly, Louis has had them poisoned.
selenak: How come no one suspected F3, given whom she'd end up marrying? Chronicles: F3 is a cautious austere bureaucrat. Louis XI is THE SPIDER KING. Enough said.
selenak: but if this was a mystery novel...Historians: It's not.
Charles the definitely Rash: Grrr. Argh. Okay, reopening the negotiations with the Habsburgs. Also, off to fight the Swiss! *dies in battle; the Swiss get his travel treasure, which will be acquired by super merchant Jakob Fugger a generation later*
Margaret of York: Mary, I think you should get married as quickly as possible, because...
Leaders of Dutch Parliament: A WOMAN? Yeah, no. Let's try to squeeze as much concessions out of her as we can. It's not like she can fight, right?
Louis: You better marry my kid Charles now, Missy. My army is assembling.
Dutch: Execute two of Mary's advisors in front of her, intend to force her into marriage of their choice
Mary *writes secret letter*: Dear former potential husband Archduke Max, if you show up here right away, we're back on!
Maximilian: *to the rescue*
Contemporaries: As she's the richest heiress of Europe, he wasn't exactly selfless there, But we'll admit they're both young and charming and fall for each other very quickly.
True nerd fact: as Mary's every day languages were Flemish and French, and Max' was German (this was before France became so culturally dominant that every European prince spoke French), they first talked to each other in Latin (they were both well educated enough for this) until Max had learned enough French and Flemish to switch to these instead. Mary did not learn German.
Mary and Max: *produce three children, one of whom dies as a baby, and one of whom is a girl, the very capable Margaret (named after Margaret of York) of Austria, future regent. Alas, the only boy is future jerk Philip le Bel*
War with France: is an on/off thing throughout this time
Mary: *despite being an experienced rider, has a hunting accident which means she dies at only 25 years of age*
Max: *is heartbroken*
Historians: We will concede it's possible he never gets over her death emotionally, despite, as a Habsburg, remarrying two more times. Our reasons for believing this are less the poetical epics about her he comissions and co-writes and more that after his own death decades later, he'll order his heart to be buried with Mary in far away Burgundy, not in Vienna. And a statue of her stands in his Austrian tomb.
Max: Otherwise is famous as "The Last Knight", for solving his eternal money problems by getting into debt with Swabian merchant Jakob Fugger (they are the same age exactly, btw), who will end up financing the election of Maximilian's grandson as HRE, but before that happens*
Max: *manages to marry his son Philip (le Bel) to the next great heiress in Europe, who is Juana, daughter of Isabel of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon*
Philip: *is a jerk and starts the campaign to make his wife Juana look crazy so he can rule in her stead, as Juana inherits Castile from her mother Isabel*
Philip: *dies young*
Ferdinand of Aragon: *picks up where Philip left off, because if Juana is crazy, HE gets to rule in Castile*
Flanders: What about us?
Max: You'll be ruled by baby Charles the future V., which means by my sensible daughter Margaret of Austria as regent while I'm busy waging war in Italy. Grandson Charles will grow up in the Netherlands and will hardly know his mother, which is how the following happens:
Ferdinand: *dies*
Juana: So does my sanity get reevaluated and do I get out of prison now?
15 years old Charles, meeting his mother for the first time since toddlerdom: I don't think so. I kind of want to rule Castile and Aragon by myself, and if you are sane, Castile is yours, and so are its overseas new colonies. Sorry, but: you're clearly still insane.
Maximilian: *dies as well, having secured the vote for Charles as German King and HRE courtesy of his financial buddy Jakob Fugger*
Charles V, HRE: *now has the first realm in which the sun never sets, before Victorian Britain steals that moniker*
The musical and subtitled in English vids to go with this:
Mary of Burgundy (vid using footage from the series "Maximilian")
The Rise of the Habsburg Dynasty (using footage of the German series "Maximilian" about Max and Mary, and the Spanish Series "Isabel" (for young Juana and Philip le Bel) and "Carlos Rey Emperador" (the obvious)
Edited 2021-05-22 06:30 (UTC)
*applauds*
You're the best battle explainer! I'm so bad at it, I usually just wave my hands and mutter something about who won.
re: Wittelsbachs, they also did produce one notable Emperor in the Middle Ages, Ludwig the Bavarian, who ruled in the time the novel (and film) "The Name of the Rose" is set. Like many a medieval Emperor, he clashed with the Pope. Negotiations between his representatives and the papal representatives are why the monastery "The Name of the Rose" is set at is packed with clerical VIPs. (Our detective hero William of Baskerville, btw, is on the Wittelsbach Emperor's side.)
Bavaria teaming up with France was a thing throughout the 18th century; as Mildred notes, this resulted in MT's rival getting crowned early on only to lose Bavaria to Austrian troops before the coronation in Frankfurt was finished. His son Maximilian (Max is a very Southern German name, which is why it shows up in as many Wittelsbach rulers as "Friedrich" and "Wilhelm" does in Hohenzollerns, but also occasionally with the Habsburgs) was the one who promised MT to let go of the Wittelsbach attempts to be Emperor if he can get Bavaria back. But that wasn't the end of the France/Bavaria team-ups. It became a thing again when Napoleon happened. Which is how the Dukedom of Bavaria ended up as the Kingdom of Bavaria (which it remained until 1918), with some neat territorial gains (including my home province of Franconia) when Napoleon officially dissolved the HRE and redrew the map of the German principalities. And a new secular constitution. And no Bonaparte as King as but the previous Wittelsbach Duke (though his daughter married Eugene Beauharnais, Napoleon's step son).
As Mildred said, Bavaria is literally next door to Austria (the Austrian border is just an hour away from where I live, for example), which makes it obvious why the French when fighting the Habsburgs kept teaming up with the Wittelsbachs. The downside of teaming up with Napoleon, btw, came years later when a great many Bavarians died as allies of France in Russia in the infamous Russian winter. After which the King of Bavaria changed sides basically at the last minute which enabled him to sit at the victors' table after Napeoleon's defeat instead of losing his shiny new Kingdom (with territorial gains) and title.
So harmonious and unselfish was their [Eugene and Marlborough's] co-operation that popular medals were struck depicting them as Castor and Pollux.
Horowski also points out they were the military international bromance of the 18th Century, despite being very different men. Re: what was more the norm - remember how the 7 Years War, the first Miracle of the House of Brandenburg happened because after soundly defeating Fritz at Kunersdorf, the anti-Fritz-Alliance didn't march onto Berlin? One explanation for this were hierarchical arguments in the international leadership. On the other side, G2's son Bill the Butcher before failing ignomiously early in the 7 Years War also kept arguing with both his Hannover and his Prussian allies. Marborough and Eugene forming a dream team really was the absolute exception to the rule when it came to big name generals from different realms working together.
ETA: Controversial architectural style has been controversial throughout the ages. Tastes are divided on the matter. I leave you to form your own opinions. :
For the record, this is a very English thing, because the Baroque style never caught on in England; this palace is its one big example. Whereas in Germany, where every big and little prince wanted to have their very own mini Versailles in the late 17th and throughout the 18th century, the Baroque style for palaces is the norm, so most palaces are in that style, and when I first saw it, I didn't immediately get what was supposed to be unusual about it stylistically. Well, other than the tributes to Marlborough himself in the design, for:
This view of the Duke as an omnipotent being is also reflected in the interior design of the palace, and indeed its axis to certain features in the park. It was planned that when the Duke dined in state in his place of honour in the great saloon, he would be the climax of a great procession of architectural mass aggrandising him rather like a proscenium. The line of celebration and honour of his victorious life began with the great column of victory surmounted by his statue and detailing his triumphs, and the next point on the great axis, planted with trees in the position of troops, was the epic Roman style bridge. The approach continues through the great portico into the hall, its ceiling painted by James Thornhill with the Duke's apotheosis, then on under a great triumphal arch, through the huge marble door-case with the Duke's marble effigy above it (bearing the ducal plaudit "Nor could Augustus better calm mankind"), and into the painted saloon, the most highly decorated room in the palace, where the Duke was to have sat enthroned.
The Duke was to have sat with his back to the great 30-tonne marble bust of his vanquished foe Louis XIV, positioned high above the south portico. Here the defeated King was humiliatingly forced to look down on the great parterre and spoils of his conqueror (rather in the same way as severed heads were displayed generations earlier). The Duke did not live long enough to see this majestic tribute realised, and sit enthroned in this architectural vision. The Duke and Duchess moved into their apartments on the eastern side of the palace, but the entirety was not completed until after the Duke's death.
Given that Louis never visited England and Versailles kept being imitated all across the continent, I'm not sure the intended humiliation was ever felt in France, but hey.
Another thing: by the end of the 19th century Blenheim was pretty run down, until the current Duke of Marlborough in 1895 married American heiress Consuelo Vanderbilt and with her money restored its current splendor. In fact, this was the main purpose of the marriage. To quote wiki again:
In November 1896 he coldly and openly without love married the American railroad heiress Consuelo Vanderbilt. The marriage was celebrated following lengthy negotiations with her divorced parents: her mother, Alva Vanderbilt, was desperate to see her daughter a duchess, and the bride's father, William Vanderbilt, paid for the privilege. The final price was $2,500,000 ($77.8 million today) in 50,000 shares of the capital stock of the Beech Creek Railway Company with a minimum 4% dividend guaranteed by the New York Central Railroad Company. The couple were given a further annual income each of $100,000 for life. The bride later claimed she had been locked in her room until she agreed to the marriage. The contract was actually signed in the vestry of St. Thomas Episcopal Church, New York, immediately after the wedding vows had been made. In the carriage leaving the church, Marlborough told Consuelo he loved another woman, and would never return to America, as he "despised anything that was not British".
Which is another reason why Shaw in his Charles/James conversation about John "Jack" Churchill includes that dig about the Churchills and their meanness.
You're the best battle explainer! I'm so bad at it, I usually just wave my hands and mutter something about who won.
re: Wittelsbachs, they also did produce one notable Emperor in the Middle Ages, Ludwig the Bavarian, who ruled in the time the novel (and film) "The Name of the Rose" is set. Like many a medieval Emperor, he clashed with the Pope. Negotiations between his representatives and the papal representatives are why the monastery "The Name of the Rose" is set at is packed with clerical VIPs. (Our detective hero William of Baskerville, btw, is on the Wittelsbach Emperor's side.)
Bavaria teaming up with France was a thing throughout the 18th century; as Mildred notes, this resulted in MT's rival getting crowned early on only to lose Bavaria to Austrian troops before the coronation in Frankfurt was finished. His son Maximilian (Max is a very Southern German name, which is why it shows up in as many Wittelsbach rulers as "Friedrich" and "Wilhelm" does in Hohenzollerns, but also occasionally with the Habsburgs) was the one who promised MT to let go of the Wittelsbach attempts to be Emperor if he can get Bavaria back. But that wasn't the end of the France/Bavaria team-ups. It became a thing again when Napoleon happened. Which is how the Dukedom of Bavaria ended up as the Kingdom of Bavaria (which it remained until 1918), with some neat territorial gains (including my home province of Franconia) when Napoleon officially dissolved the HRE and redrew the map of the German principalities. And a new secular constitution. And no Bonaparte as King as but the previous Wittelsbach Duke (though his daughter married Eugene Beauharnais, Napoleon's step son).
As Mildred said, Bavaria is literally next door to Austria (the Austrian border is just an hour away from where I live, for example), which makes it obvious why the French when fighting the Habsburgs kept teaming up with the Wittelsbachs. The downside of teaming up with Napoleon, btw, came years later when a great many Bavarians died as allies of France in Russia in the infamous Russian winter. After which the King of Bavaria changed sides basically at the last minute which enabled him to sit at the victors' table after Napeoleon's defeat instead of losing his shiny new Kingdom (with territorial gains) and title.
So harmonious and unselfish was their [Eugene and Marlborough's] co-operation that popular medals were struck depicting them as Castor and Pollux.
Horowski also points out they were the military international bromance of the 18th Century, despite being very different men. Re: what was more the norm - remember how the 7 Years War, the first Miracle of the House of Brandenburg happened because after soundly defeating Fritz at Kunersdorf, the anti-Fritz-Alliance didn't march onto Berlin? One explanation for this were hierarchical arguments in the international leadership. On the other side, G2's son Bill the Butcher before failing ignomiously early in the 7 Years War also kept arguing with both his Hannover and his Prussian allies. Marborough and Eugene forming a dream team really was the absolute exception to the rule when it came to big name generals from different realms working together.
ETA: Controversial architectural style has been controversial throughout the ages. Tastes are divided on the matter. I leave you to form your own opinions. :
For the record, this is a very English thing, because the Baroque style never caught on in England; this palace is its one big example. Whereas in Germany, where every big and little prince wanted to have their very own mini Versailles in the late 17th and throughout the 18th century, the Baroque style for palaces is the norm, so most palaces are in that style, and when I first saw it, I didn't immediately get what was supposed to be unusual about it stylistically. Well, other than the tributes to Marlborough himself in the design, for:
This view of the Duke as an omnipotent being is also reflected in the interior design of the palace, and indeed its axis to certain features in the park. It was planned that when the Duke dined in state in his place of honour in the great saloon, he would be the climax of a great procession of architectural mass aggrandising him rather like a proscenium. The line of celebration and honour of his victorious life began with the great column of victory surmounted by his statue and detailing his triumphs, and the next point on the great axis, planted with trees in the position of troops, was the epic Roman style bridge. The approach continues through the great portico into the hall, its ceiling painted by James Thornhill with the Duke's apotheosis, then on under a great triumphal arch, through the huge marble door-case with the Duke's marble effigy above it (bearing the ducal plaudit "Nor could Augustus better calm mankind"), and into the painted saloon, the most highly decorated room in the palace, where the Duke was to have sat enthroned.
The Duke was to have sat with his back to the great 30-tonne marble bust of his vanquished foe Louis XIV, positioned high above the south portico. Here the defeated King was humiliatingly forced to look down on the great parterre and spoils of his conqueror (rather in the same way as severed heads were displayed generations earlier). The Duke did not live long enough to see this majestic tribute realised, and sit enthroned in this architectural vision. The Duke and Duchess moved into their apartments on the eastern side of the palace, but the entirety was not completed until after the Duke's death.
Given that Louis never visited England and Versailles kept being imitated all across the continent, I'm not sure the intended humiliation was ever felt in France, but hey.
Another thing: by the end of the 19th century Blenheim was pretty run down, until the current Duke of Marlborough in 1895 married American heiress Consuelo Vanderbilt and with her money restored its current splendor. In fact, this was the main purpose of the marriage. To quote wiki again:
In November 1896 he coldly and openly without love married the American railroad heiress Consuelo Vanderbilt. The marriage was celebrated following lengthy negotiations with her divorced parents: her mother, Alva Vanderbilt, was desperate to see her daughter a duchess, and the bride's father, William Vanderbilt, paid for the privilege. The final price was $2,500,000 ($77.8 million today) in 50,000 shares of the capital stock of the Beech Creek Railway Company with a minimum 4% dividend guaranteed by the New York Central Railroad Company. The couple were given a further annual income each of $100,000 for life. The bride later claimed she had been locked in her room until she agreed to the marriage. The contract was actually signed in the vestry of St. Thomas Episcopal Church, New York, immediately after the wedding vows had been made. In the carriage leaving the church, Marlborough told Consuelo he loved another woman, and would never return to America, as he "despised anything that was not British".
Which is another reason why Shaw in his Charles/James conversation about John "Jack" Churchill includes that dig about the Churchills and their meanness.
Edited 2021-05-22 06:48 (UTC)
Would Philip have made a move if little Louis had died? I don't know, but war brought him out of his depression, and even with Louis XV on the throne and Philippe d'Orleans as regent, there was a conspiracy in France and Spain to make Philip V the regent.
You can consider it a small miracle that Louis XV survived and possibly averted the early 18th century War of the French Succession.
Reminder tocahn, if little Louis had died, the rival claimant to Philip of Spain (if he'd made a move) would have been Philippe d'Orleans the Regent (son of Liselotte and Philippe the Gay), which is why so many people kept suspecting Philippe the Regent of being an evil uncle with evil ursurping intentions. Whereas Philippe d'Orleans was like John of Gaunt (who was regent for Richard II): Regent for a child King constantly suspected of being evil and intending to off the kid and put himself in his place but actually not doing this and doing on the contrary the best to his abilities to keep the realm together for the kid.
You can consider it a small miracle that Louis XV survived and possibly averted the early 18th century War of the French Succession.
Reminder to
cahn, if little Louis had died, the rival claimant to Philip of Spain (if he'd made a move) would have been Philippe d'Orleans the Regent (son of Liselotte and Philippe the Gay), which is why so many people kept suspecting Philippe the Regent of being an evil uncle with evil ursurping intentions. Whereas Philippe d'Orleans was like John of Gaunt (who was regent for Richard II): Regent for a child King constantly suspected of being evil and intending to off the kid and put himself in his place but actually not doing this and doing on the contrary the best to his abilities to keep the realm together for the kid. Because when refreshing my memories via wiki, the following amuses me.
German wiki: even in his life time, there were rumors that Eugene was gay. "Mars without Venus" being the nice form of same, and then there's Liselotte writing about him in a letter: " „incommodiert er sich nicht mit Damen, ein paar schöne Pagen wären besser sein Sach!“ ("He doesn't bother with ladies, a few beautiful pages would be more to his taste") Though it can't be proven 100%.
English wiki: NO PROOF. Liselotte wrote that when Eugene was already busy fighting against her brother-in-law Louis. Clearly, she was slandering a man who was humiliating her brother-in-law on the battlefield, out of offended French patriotism.
selenak: Wiki people, short of coming across Eugene's love letters, or memoirs of a boytoy, I don't see how it could be proven 100%, one way or the other. However, let's be clear about something here:
1.) Liselotte had mixed feelings about Louis and his wars herself, what with him invading her home realm, the Palatinate, using her marriage to his brother as a pretext. She had been devastated by that. Some of her half brothers fought on the other side of those endless wars, including her very favourite brother, Carl-Lutz. Whose death made her very sad indeed. When her Hannover relations (aka her favourite aunt Sophie's husband and brother-in-law) were responsible for a Louis battlefield loss, she was a bit gleeful, even. So I'm really doubtful she'd have felt offended French patriotism and the need to avenge same by slandering Eugene.
2.) Also, Liselotte, with a clain of being married to the gayest noble not just of France but of Europe, and living surrounded by a lot of other gay and bi courtiers of same, presumably had a reasonably good gaydar. If young Eugene before his getaway from France had struck her as gay, I'm inclined to believe her.
3.) Also, Liselotte didn't see gayness per se as something negative. She wrote in December 1705 to her half sister Amelise: „Wo seydt Ihr und Louisse denn gestocken, daß ihr die weldt so wenig kendt? (…) wer alle die haßen woldt, so die junge kerls lieben, würde hier kein 6 menschen lieben können." ("What's gotten into you and Louise that you know so little of the world? (...) If one would hate all those who love young men, one couldn't love six people here. (In Versailles.)") Morever, while she was an inveterate gossip reporter in her letters, I don't think anyone has accused her otherwise of making it up. Doesn't mean the gossip she reports has to be accurate, of course, and naturally her own biases against people get into it - she definitely believed in the old order and superiority of noble bloodlines, for example, and she loathed Madame de Maintenon, louis' mistress and later morganatic wife -, and the fact that Eugene was the son of an Italian adventuresss who only married into the top French nobility because her uncle had been Cardinal Mazarin would have biased her against him. But not likely to have made her invent stories she hadn't heard.
4.) While there are reasons for not marrying other than being gay, it's still worth considering that if you are a penniless refugee without any family connections in a world that lives by those, it's absolutely remarkable not to try to form them by marrying into one of the big families. But escaped-from-France Eugene didn't do that when showing up in the HRE. He really owed his remarkable career (and massive fortune) to his skills.
In conclusion, I wish whoever wrote those passages in the English wiki would meet Johannes Kunisch, who is the German Fritz biographer who made my AP argue for a while that maybe Fritz was just pretending to be gay because Eugene and Turenne had made it fashionable. (I kid you not.)
German wiki: even in his life time, there were rumors that Eugene was gay. "Mars without Venus" being the nice form of same, and then there's Liselotte writing about him in a letter: " „incommodiert er sich nicht mit Damen, ein paar schöne Pagen wären besser sein Sach!“ ("He doesn't bother with ladies, a few beautiful pages would be more to his taste") Though it can't be proven 100%.
English wiki: NO PROOF. Liselotte wrote that when Eugene was already busy fighting against her brother-in-law Louis. Clearly, she was slandering a man who was humiliating her brother-in-law on the battlefield, out of offended French patriotism.
selenak: Wiki people, short of coming across Eugene's love letters, or memoirs of a boytoy, I don't see how it could be proven 100%, one way or the other. However, let's be clear about something here:1.) Liselotte had mixed feelings about Louis and his wars herself, what with him invading her home realm, the Palatinate, using her marriage to his brother as a pretext. She had been devastated by that. Some of her half brothers fought on the other side of those endless wars, including her very favourite brother, Carl-Lutz. Whose death made her very sad indeed. When her Hannover relations (aka her favourite aunt Sophie's husband and brother-in-law) were responsible for a Louis battlefield loss, she was a bit gleeful, even. So I'm really doubtful she'd have felt offended French patriotism and the need to avenge same by slandering Eugene.
2.) Also, Liselotte, with a clain of being married to the gayest noble not just of France but of Europe, and living surrounded by a lot of other gay and bi courtiers of same, presumably had a reasonably good gaydar. If young Eugene before his getaway from France had struck her as gay, I'm inclined to believe her.
3.) Also, Liselotte didn't see gayness per se as something negative. She wrote in December 1705 to her half sister Amelise: „Wo seydt Ihr und Louisse denn gestocken, daß ihr die weldt so wenig kendt? (…) wer alle die haßen woldt, so die junge kerls lieben, würde hier kein 6 menschen lieben können." ("What's gotten into you and Louise that you know so little of the world? (...) If one would hate all those who love young men, one couldn't love six people here. (In Versailles.)") Morever, while she was an inveterate gossip reporter in her letters, I don't think anyone has accused her otherwise of making it up. Doesn't mean the gossip she reports has to be accurate, of course, and naturally her own biases against people get into it - she definitely believed in the old order and superiority of noble bloodlines, for example, and she loathed Madame de Maintenon, louis' mistress and later morganatic wife -, and the fact that Eugene was the son of an Italian adventuresss who only married into the top French nobility because her uncle had been Cardinal Mazarin would have biased her against him. But not likely to have made her invent stories she hadn't heard.
4.) While there are reasons for not marrying other than being gay, it's still worth considering that if you are a penniless refugee without any family connections in a world that lives by those, it's absolutely remarkable not to try to form them by marrying into one of the big families. But escaped-from-France Eugene didn't do that when showing up in the HRE. He really owed his remarkable career (and massive fortune) to his skills.
In conclusion, I wish whoever wrote those passages in the English wiki would meet Johannes Kunisch, who is the German Fritz biographer who made my AP argue for a while that maybe Fritz was just pretending to be gay because Eugene and Turenne had made it fashionable. (I kid you not.)
Edited 2021-05-22 17:56 (UTC)
Aw, that Heinrich passage. And as always, their correspondence is highly entertaining. This Thomas detail - he starts a note book titled "Anti-Heinrich" - was new to me and made me laugh. His mix of drama and taking himself too seriously is something else.
But whatever happened to his notes for the Fritz novel - did he burn them, were they lost? Because I remember from another post of yours that he had some - or at least that Heinrich mentioned them, in the context of "if I decided to become a Fritz fan, you'd burn them on the spot".
Otherwise, I only know that Heinrich wrote a Fritz fragment himself, much later, but haven't read it.
But whatever happened to his notes for the Fritz novel - did he burn them, were they lost? Because I remember from another post of yours that he had some - or at least that Heinrich mentioned them, in the context of "if I decided to become a Fritz fan, you'd burn them on the spot".
Otherwise, I only know that Heinrich wrote a Fritz fragment himself, much later, but haven't read it.
*applauds*
You're the best battle explainer! I'm so bad at it, I usually just wave my hands and mutter something about who won.
Thank you! I'm glad I managed to make it readable. I will say, it takes a non-trivial amount of effort to get a battle down, but I'm pleased I've managed to do it for Blenheim, which is now more than just a name to me.
In return, I super appreciate your gossipy addenda, and I knowcahn does too! I'm unable to reply in full at this time, because I still have three meaty Spanish Succession posts to finish researching and write (Malplaquet, lead-up to the war, and the war in more detail), but after that, I'm hoping to come back to salon.
Meanwhile, I am reading and appreciating both the parts I was already familiar with and those that are new! Excellent contributions that I suspect help make the technical stuff I'm producing more digestible bycahn.
You're the best battle explainer! I'm so bad at it, I usually just wave my hands and mutter something about who won.
Thank you! I'm glad I managed to make it readable. I will say, it takes a non-trivial amount of effort to get a battle down, but I'm pleased I've managed to do it for Blenheim, which is now more than just a name to me.
In return, I super appreciate your gossipy addenda, and I know
cahn does too! I'm unable to reply in full at this time, because I still have three meaty Spanish Succession posts to finish researching and write (Malplaquet, lead-up to the war, and the war in more detail), but after that, I'm hoping to come back to salon.Meanwhile, I am reading and appreciating both the parts I was already familiar with and those that are new! Excellent contributions that I suspect help make the technical stuff I'm producing more digestible by
cahn.But whatever happened to his notes for the Fritz novel - did he burn them, were they lost?
Honestly, I have no idea. They might have gotten lost in 1933. Renember, TM was on a lecture tour abroad when the Nazis arrived and never came back. Erika and Klaus were in Germany. I mean, I know Erika was able to get her father's then current manuscript and some more papers out of their house before leaving, but inevitably this can't have been everything, and she must have prioritized some stuff.
Alternatively, maybe Thomas did throw his notes into the fire when finding out Heinrich in his final years was tackling hte subject!
Re: Heinrich, it was one of the last things he wrote, trying to do it in film script style and wanting it to be an antidote to the Fridericus movies with Gebühr, but he didn't finish it. I have only read quotes so far, though, not everything.
His mix of drama and taking himself too seriously is something else.
More from Thomas' notebooks: Feeling hatred makes me suffer like nothing else does. Compared to Heinrich the Noble, Cold One, I am a soft Plebejan, but I have much more hunger for power in me. Not for nothing is Savanarola my hero. One hates where that achieves power which one despises. I'm not supposed to hate you because my part is to love? No, I hate you all the more, because you awake more hate in me, for most of all I hate those who point out the weaknesses in my character through the emotions they awake in me.
Meanwhile, son Klaus wrote in one of his diaries when reading Dad's "Betrachtungen eines Unpolitischen" that if he survives Dad, he'll so write the definite book about Dad and Heinrich. (Yet one more reason to regret his suicide. I'd love to have seen him tackle the two.)
Oh, and I have to give you this quote, from when sister Lula (aka Julia Minor) and her husband Löhr and Thomas are all upset with Heinrich because of Die Jagd nach Liebe, and I have to give it in Thomas' untranslated prose. It's that kind of quote. Written to Heinrich back when they were having it out about "Die Jagd nach Liebe":
Oft kommt jetzt das Gespräch auf Dich bei Löhrs, wo ich zweimal die Woche zu Mittag esse. Wir sitzen dann und machen alle drei sehr ernste, fast leidende Gesichter. Jeder sagt ein halbwegs gescheites Sprüchlein über Dich, Für und Wider, und dann tritt stummes Grübeln ein. Endlich sage ich: "Der Fall Heinrich ist nämlich ein Fall, über den ich stundenlang nachdenken kann." "Ich auch", sagt Lula. "Ich auch", sagt Löhr. Und wiederum nach einer Pause sage ich mit orakelhafter Betonung: "Daß er uns allen so viel zu schaffen macht, beweist, daß er mehr ist, als wir Alle."
Btw, while we don't have Heinrich's pre WWWI letters, we do have a draft for his reply to letter to Thomas' original "Why your latest novel sucks" letter. In said draft, Heinrich repays the compliment by coming up with this line of argumentation:
(Thomas had complained that even when the hero, Claude, is dying, he doesn't just reflect on his beloved Ute's great qualities but also on her thighs, and this is an example for how all the sex stuff ruins Heinrich's writing style.)
(Slightly paraphrased)
1. Claude loves Ute's laughter, and he loves her thighs. Both are part of her, and it would have felt wrong if the erotic aspect of his love for her would have been denied in this farewell. But I'm not surprised you don't get that, because
2. All your female characters are castrated, and with one exception, they just exist to feed your male characters lines.
3. The one exception is Tony Buddenbrook. She's your single female character who exists not just for the benefit of a male character but because you're actually interested in her. But even there, you're just allowing her some romantic notions misguiding her, not sexual longings. Poor Tony is castrated, too.
Yes, he does use the term "kastriert", "all Deine Frauenfiguren sind kastriert" . In the draft, at least; like I said, we don't have the actual letter, and even this draft was lost for eons, which is why it's not in the 1990s edition of the corrspondence, but I've come across it in the later Heinrich biographies. Bearing in mind Heinrich writes this in 1904 - meaning that several important female characters in Thomas Mann's oeuvre are yet to come, including old Lotte in "Lotte in Weimar" - it's, in terms of TM's early works, a palpable hit and that he bothered to make it shows Heinrich wasn't always so above quarelling for non-WWI reasons as he would have wanted to be.
Honestly, I have no idea. They might have gotten lost in 1933. Renember, TM was on a lecture tour abroad when the Nazis arrived and never came back. Erika and Klaus were in Germany. I mean, I know Erika was able to get her father's then current manuscript and some more papers out of their house before leaving, but inevitably this can't have been everything, and she must have prioritized some stuff.
Alternatively, maybe Thomas did throw his notes into the fire when finding out Heinrich in his final years was tackling hte subject!
Re: Heinrich, it was one of the last things he wrote, trying to do it in film script style and wanting it to be an antidote to the Fridericus movies with Gebühr, but he didn't finish it. I have only read quotes so far, though, not everything.
His mix of drama and taking himself too seriously is something else.
More from Thomas' notebooks: Feeling hatred makes me suffer like nothing else does. Compared to Heinrich the Noble, Cold One, I am a soft Plebejan, but I have much more hunger for power in me. Not for nothing is Savanarola my hero. One hates where that achieves power which one despises. I'm not supposed to hate you because my part is to love? No, I hate you all the more, because you awake more hate in me, for most of all I hate those who point out the weaknesses in my character through the emotions they awake in me.
Meanwhile, son Klaus wrote in one of his diaries when reading Dad's "Betrachtungen eines Unpolitischen" that if he survives Dad, he'll so write the definite book about Dad and Heinrich. (Yet one more reason to regret his suicide. I'd love to have seen him tackle the two.)
Oh, and I have to give you this quote, from when sister Lula (aka Julia Minor) and her husband Löhr and Thomas are all upset with Heinrich because of Die Jagd nach Liebe, and I have to give it in Thomas' untranslated prose. It's that kind of quote. Written to Heinrich back when they were having it out about "Die Jagd nach Liebe":
Oft kommt jetzt das Gespräch auf Dich bei Löhrs, wo ich zweimal die Woche zu Mittag esse. Wir sitzen dann und machen alle drei sehr ernste, fast leidende Gesichter. Jeder sagt ein halbwegs gescheites Sprüchlein über Dich, Für und Wider, und dann tritt stummes Grübeln ein. Endlich sage ich: "Der Fall Heinrich ist nämlich ein Fall, über den ich stundenlang nachdenken kann." "Ich auch", sagt Lula. "Ich auch", sagt Löhr. Und wiederum nach einer Pause sage ich mit orakelhafter Betonung: "Daß er uns allen so viel zu schaffen macht, beweist, daß er mehr ist, als wir Alle."
Btw, while we don't have Heinrich's pre WWWI letters, we do have a draft for his reply to letter to Thomas' original "Why your latest novel sucks" letter. In said draft, Heinrich repays the compliment by coming up with this line of argumentation:
(Thomas had complained that even when the hero, Claude, is dying, he doesn't just reflect on his beloved Ute's great qualities but also on her thighs, and this is an example for how all the sex stuff ruins Heinrich's writing style.)
(Slightly paraphrased)
1. Claude loves Ute's laughter, and he loves her thighs. Both are part of her, and it would have felt wrong if the erotic aspect of his love for her would have been denied in this farewell. But I'm not surprised you don't get that, because
2. All your female characters are castrated, and with one exception, they just exist to feed your male characters lines.
3. The one exception is Tony Buddenbrook. She's your single female character who exists not just for the benefit of a male character but because you're actually interested in her. But even there, you're just allowing her some romantic notions misguiding her, not sexual longings. Poor Tony is castrated, too.
Yes, he does use the term "kastriert", "all Deine Frauenfiguren sind kastriert" . In the draft, at least; like I said, we don't have the actual letter, and even this draft was lost for eons, which is why it's not in the 1990s edition of the corrspondence, but I've come across it in the later Heinrich biographies. Bearing in mind Heinrich writes this in 1904 - meaning that several important female characters in Thomas Mann's oeuvre are yet to come, including old Lotte in "Lotte in Weimar" - it's, in terms of TM's early works, a palpable hit and that he bothered to make it shows Heinrich wasn't always so above quarelling for non-WWI reasons as he would have wanted to be.
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