ETA: Oh, hey, I only just realized that the German translator added "der Einzige" to the title. *facepalm*
Hahaha, that's hilarious. You may have noticed we're always making "der Einzige" jokes in this salon. :D
So if you want to know which book and chapter he was reading to Fritz on any given day between November 1784 and July 1786, this is your source.
Yes! Yes, this is what I've always wanted! Thank you.
He reports that Fritz had a lot to say about pronunciation, kept correcting him and generally had his own ideas on the topic.
If one sentence about Fritz was ever in character, this is it.
If Fritz himself wasn't sure how to pronounce certain words, he tried to say them quietly to himself at first [...].
To be fair, there are plenty of words in English I don't know how to pronounce because I've only seen them in writing! And my instinct for where to put the stress is consistently wrong, gdi.
I was surprised that the King didn't let go of a wrong pronunciation of certain words once he'd settled on it
You were surprised? In 1784-1786?? Dear lord. In the words of Selena, "I have two words for you. Quintus Icilius." Also what do you think the Seven Years' War was all about? In the words of Macaulay on the Treaty of Hubertusburg, "The king ceded nothing. The whole Continent in arms had proved unable to tear Silesia from that iron grasp." HE DOESN'T LET GO. That's what he does! That's who he is!
he couldn't remember the author of a book he wanted to read, Dantal suggested the right one but Fritz didn't hear/register and therefore grumpily dismissed it, then sent Dantal, who didn't dare to mention it again, away to do research. Dantal had just reached the city gate, when he was called back because Fritz had remembered the name at last and all was right with the world: "Now he was completely content again and the gentle tone with which he said "c'est fort bien", gave me back the trust/confidence [Zutrauen], which the critical moment had taken away before."
Ooh, this is surprisingly like and unlike the story of Fritz and Catt not being able to think of the name of an opera and going crazy over it. Specifically, it's rather more like the doctored version Catt tells in his memoirs in which Fritz is in the wrong, than in the diary where he comes across much more positively. The two versions of the anecdote, if anyone needs a reminder. (Thank goodness for Rheinsberg!)
Dantal also mentions the order that was kept in Fritz' libraries, and that they were sorted by content, not looks, i.e. without regard for different sizes next to each other, which some owners of libraries care for the most (ha)
Ha indeed! Now that's the mark of a serious reader. :D
(with the letters on the covers - "S" for the New Palais (the Palace of Sanssouci) for example, and of course Sanssouci had a "V" because Fritz always called it Vignes) and also mentiones that nobody was allowed to move the books in Fritz' room.
Oooh, so I new they had the letters on the covers, and I knew that he often referred to what we think of as Sanssouci as his "vineyard", but I didn't realize that extended as far as thinking of it as V and the New Palace as S! Huh.
the speech in which Isocrates is trying to convince Philippos to wage war against the barbarians [the Persians I think] to free Greece
The Persians, yes. Isocrates had a bee in his bonnet about crusading against the Persians for the sake of uniting the squabbling Greek city-states. ("Free Greece" is...well, I see it's a direct translation of Dantal, but we'll call it a euphemism for "aggressive war for ulterior motives couched as freeing Ionia, a gambit which Philip declined but Alexander took up, not because he gave a shit about Greece, but because it gave the first stage of his Rendezvous with fame a veneer of respectability, a la freeing the Silesian Protestants something something :P").
Though I believe it was a letter rather than a speech--ah, I see the French has "harangue" and the German translator has chosen to translate it "Rede". Which I guess can mean "address" as well as "speech", but I see why "speech" was the obvious choice. The thing about Isocrates is that none of his works, even the ones today called "speeches", were ever delivered orally. He was a written rhetorician only, in contrast to people like Demosthenes and Aeschines. (Was 4th century Athenian oratory what I was in the middle of studying in 2019 when I got sucked into full-time Fritz? You bet it was! :'D)
Oh, and skimming through Dantal, I see Fritz has opinions on the pronunciation of Greek names like Epaminondas, and he and Dantal don't always want to stress them on the same syllables. I mean, that's fair! Even English today usually has at least two different widely accepted pronunciations of polysyllabic Greek names, usually differing in stress placement.
Fritz' very own theory on Socrates death: It's the sculptors' fault! They feared for their income because Socrates spoke against polytheism, so they accused him of various political offenses and got him killed.
Points for creativity! I'm not sure I've encountered that before.
an asthma attack (that's what "Steckfluss" is, right? I'm not sure how the fact that he got an emetic plays into it, though)
Either asthma or pulmonary edema, aka water in the lungs. Since Fritz had dropsy (edema, water retention) at the end and a severe cough in that last year, I think he had congestive heart failure, his lungs were filled with fluid, and the enema might have been intended to drain some of the water.
Because when I read the following words - [about animals not being capable of reasoning] - the King turned to his favourite dog and said: "Do you hear, my mignonne, they are talking about you and claiming that you don't have reason [esprit], but you do have it, my little mignonne!"
Ah, that's where that anecdote comes from! I had shared it before, but never known the source or if it was reliable.
Good to know it was near the end and that Arsinoé might have been the final favorite!
During the last months, they go back to a lot of Voltaire, mostly the history works (Louis XIV and XV)
I had always read that the last thing Fritz had read to him in July, before he was in too much pain/too little consciousness, was Voltaire. I now, thanks to you, see that it was an account of Damiens, aka the gruesomely executed mentally ill guy who tried to assassinate Louis XV.
...What a note to go out on.
During the last weeks, Fritz often fell asleep while Dantal was reading - by then, he would be wearing his nightclothes already so he could just stay asleep if he wanted - and Dantal therefore stayed until 10 at night
Awww, this whole last paragraph is so exactly the kind of thing I wanted to know, thank you. <33 I might add this book to my reading list once my German is up to it. And then bonus points for having it in French and German, because I plan to start reading a lot of things in French that I've already read in English or German or both.
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Ooh, this is surprisingly like and unlike the story of Fritz and Catt not being able to think of the name of an opera and going crazy over it.
The part I left out here: on this occasion, he'd actually called Dantal early in the morning to collect some books for him (not sure if nobody but his reader was allowed in the library or why, Dantal doesn't say), so when Dantal came back from his walk into town, Fritz was supposed to be in a meeting with someone else, but called Dantal in first to tell him the right name and get the book in question. So, you know, priorities, even if it isn't quite keeping someone up at night.
Oooh, so I new they had the letters on the covers, and I knew that he often referred to what we think of as Sanssouci as his "vineyard", but I didn't realize that extended as far as thinking of it as V and the New Palace as S! Huh.
It did indeed. I'd encountered this before and made a note of it to remind myself, particularly because it could lead to confusion re: New Palais vs. Sanssouci when he refers to the "palais de Sanssouci" for example. (Had to think of it again during the recent discussion of his will, because the Vignes designation is yet another garden/nature-related preference.) Speaking of his libraries, though - not sure if you are aware that they have their own searchable catalogue? So if you want to check if Fritz owned a copy of a certain book, and where he kept it, you can find out.
(Was 4th century Athenian oratory what I was in the middle of studying in 2019 when I got sucked into full-time Fritz? You bet it was! :'D)
Ahaha, I knew you'd have something to say about the classics reading and that I might be on thin ice translating what Dantal says about it because I lack context. Did not expect your knowledge to be quite this on point, though. ;) Lovely to get more context, also regarding the Greek pronunciation.
And I see you already read my comment on the German vs. French version of the book, so. :)
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
So, you know, priorities, even if it isn't quite keeping someone up at night.
Heee!
Speaking of his libraries, though - not sure if you are aware that they have their own searchable catalogue? So if you want to check if Fritz owned a copy of a certain book, and where he kept it, you can find out.
Yep, we had turned that up, but the unfortunate part is that I almost never want to know if Fritz had a certain book, I want to browse a list of books that he owned and go "Ooh, I didn't know he had that!" or "Never heard of this, let me find out more!" The catalogue is apparently based on a published list that's public domain, but I've never been able to find it. Bogdan Krieger, "Friedrich der Große und seine Bücher." Admittedly I haven't checked in a very long time, and I've turned up several new resources for finding scanned books since then, so I should check again. And I did see a relevant-looking Krieger article in one of the Hohenzollern yearbooks and made a mental note to check it out someday.
Huh, I found another book by him published in 1914, on the royal Hohenzollern book possessions, and I see that at least in 1914 the Bible Fritz used at Küstrin was still in the royal collection. It had been conveyed to Fritz by Eversmann (greatly in favor with the king), he underlined a lot of passages, illuminated some copperplate engravings, and designated (? bezeichnet) some passages. After he left Küstrin, the Bible was taken back by Eversmann, who passed it on to his descendants, until in the 19th century the family decided to give it to the royal collection. And this is all described in the handwritten note of the 19th century editor on the first page of the volume. (See, I can read German for research purposes as long as it's only a paragraph!)
But you are good at turning up volumes, felis, perhaps you can turn up the 1914 catalogue for me!
I might be on thin ice translating what Dantal says about it because I lack context.
Yeah, I could immediately see it was totally a game of telephones. "Harangue" -> "Rede" and "Rede" -> "speech" were both totally reasonable translator decisions! But in the end, we get Isocrates giving Philip a speech, to which I was like, "?? I need to Google this and make sure I'm not crazy." Oh, the other thing is that I'm like...90?...percent sure that Isocrates, unlike the aforementioned orators, never met Philip in person. Which is not to say that there wasn't a genre of things called "speeches" that were never presented in person. (To what extent the published speeches by actual orators who did deliver something along the lines of what they wrote in the Assembly actually resemble what they said out loud is hugely up for debate).
But in any case, Isocrates was constantly writing, "Let's all stop killing each other and go kill some Persians instead! It'll be great, just like the olden, golden days of our ancestors! Panhellenic crusade fuck yeah!" and being ignored by like everyone. :P
Did not expect your knowledge to be quite this on point, though. ;)
Lol, yeah, some days it's like, "Dio Cassius, yeah, I've heard of him," and others, it's like, "Settle in while we talk about 4th century Athens." ;) I do fully intend to someday pick up where I left off when I got interrupted by THE MOST WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. German and French first, though!
ETA: Oh, Maecenas, I should say a word about him for at least cahn, and maybe others. (selenak I fully expect to know this.) He was a Roman poet, but what he was most famous for, even more than being friends with Augustus, was being a patron of the arts, and for patronizing Vergil and Horace specifically.
So yeah, when you see Europeans refer to him later, it's often in a context of "And you, rich person X, you will be a Maecenas, honored throughout the ages for your part in sponsoring our nation's counterpart to the Latin golden age, by which I mean give me money and I'll say nice things about you!" Manteuffel casting himself as the patron who is also the truth-teller to power, and focusing on the Maecenas-Augustus relationship, instead of the Maecenas/Vergil or Maecenas/Horace relationship is...I'm not widely read enough to know if it's unusual per se, but I certainly haven't seen it as often.
And there ends my knowledge of Maecenas. (There's a strong divide between Roman and Greek in terms of whether something falls into the "I've heard of that!" or "Settle in" category, although it's not absolute.)
Lovely to get more context, also regarding the Greek pronunciation.
I have to admit that I have noooo idea about 18th century French pronunciation of Greek names. I could see from Dantal that if I was willing to stop and work my way through a page, I could be enlightened! But while I'm curious, time is short, and I'll come back to it when my German and/or French are faster.
But in general, I think it's reasonable for speakers of modern European languages to have different ideas about how to pronounce Greek names, because you're really just translating into your own language. There's *no* way you're going to produce anything like authentic Greek (which wasn't even a stress-based language!), and Greek accentuation patterns just *really* do not match English, French, or German ones, not even as much as Latin (which is not much).
Ancient Greek phonology: something I studied *way* back when, and traces of which still float around in my brain, though I'm much more likely to say something wrong, so I'll stop here.
Edited 2021-03-06 21:44 (UTC)
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
YESSS! I *thought* that might be it! But German + blackletter + teeny tiny font and I = very slow enemies, so I had not yet girded my loins to check. (Slow page load time is also a thing, ugh.)
Maecenas: a reminder that Goethe in his late life poem for Carl August puns on Carl August's name and the traditional European Maecenas reference when he concludes the poem with "Niemals frug ein Kaiser nach mir, es hat sich kein König /Um mich bekümmert, und er war mir August und Mäcen" ("No emperor took me in, nor did a king ever care/ He was my Augustus and Maecenas in one").
And yes, Manteuffel going for the Augustus and Maecenas relationship is unusual to my knowledge, too; the authors of the "Hervey and Fritz of Wales" essay when summarizing the "good" and "bad" favourite classical comparisons in Europe at that time point out that Hephaistion is usually the go-to-guy if you want to style yourself as the good favourite who is intensely close to his lord but also speaks truth to power when necessary, and is very competent, too. Of course, here two factors might have caused Manteuffel to go for Maecenas instead - Hephaistion is of the same age as Alexander (Maecenas was the same age like Augustus, too, but that's not relevant to the story) and a soldier, whereas Maecenas wasn't a soldier, that was Agrippa (of the two friends of Octavian's youth). And Manteuffel wasn't a soldier, either. Also? He's talking to a young man who approached him specifically for a cultural education originally, and to one who is always in need of money.
Which brngs me back to Maecenas. When I say he wasn't a soldier, I don't mean he wasn't into politics. On the contrary. He arranged Augustus' first marriage to Scribonia (which ended when Augustus married Livia, but not before resulting in poor Julia, his only daughter), and was responsible for negotiating the treasy of Brundisium which reconciled Octavian with Mark Antony (for some years, until, etc.), and was Augustus' regent in Rome while Augustus and Agrippa were off to fight Antony and Cleopatra at Actium. Also possible not irrelevant: Maecenas famously left Augustus all his money as well as his extensive gardens, which ended up being used by Nero as building ground for his Domus Aureus a few generation later.
Lastly: Maecenas was, among others, famously Horace's patron, and Manteuffel was really and genuinely into Horace; as mentioned in my write up, he translated all of Horace's poems for his own benefit (Latin to French, not Latin to German) in his old age. I don't know when Fritz started to discover Horace for himself (in French translation, of course), but Horace as far as I know was a later day favourite, and it might have been through Manteuffel at that.
See, this is why we should do a Classics salon someday (years from now)--we'll have alchemy while I cover the Greeks and you cover the Romans!
Maecenas: a reminder that Goethe in his late life poem for Carl August puns on Carl August's name and the traditional European Maecenas reference
Oh, right, I remember that now! Like cahn, I benefit from reminders from time to time. :)
I don't know when Fritz started to discover Horace for himself (in French translation, of course), but Horace as far as I know was a later day favourite, and it might have been through Manteuffel at that.
The earliest Fritz-Horace connection I can think of off the top of my head is that ceiling Pesne painted at Rheinsberg, which, as a reminder to people who need it, had the names "Voltaire" and "Horace" painted on the pages of an open book. And that's after Fritz had gotten to know Manteuffel, so yes, could have been his influence at work there.
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Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
ETA: Oh, hey, I only just realized that the German translator added "der Einzige" to the title. *facepalm*
Hahaha, that's hilarious. You may have noticed we're always making "der Einzige" jokes in this salon. :D
So if you want to know which book and chapter he was reading to Fritz on any given day between November 1784 and July 1786, this is your source.
Yes! Yes, this is what I've always wanted! Thank you.
He reports that Fritz had a lot to say about pronunciation, kept correcting him and generally had his own ideas on the topic.
If one sentence about Fritz was ever in character, this is it.
If Fritz himself wasn't sure how to pronounce certain words, he tried to say them quietly to himself at first [...].
To be fair, there are plenty of words in English I don't know how to pronounce because I've only seen them in writing! And my instinct for where to put the stress is consistently wrong, gdi.
I was surprised that the King didn't let go of a wrong pronunciation of certain words once he'd settled on it
You were surprised? In 1784-1786?? Dear lord. In the words of Selena, "I have two words for you. Quintus Icilius." Also what do you think the Seven Years' War was all about? In the words of Macaulay on the Treaty of Hubertusburg, "The king ceded nothing. The whole Continent in arms had proved unable to tear Silesia from that iron grasp." HE DOESN'T LET GO. That's what he does! That's who he is!
he couldn't remember the author of a book he wanted to read, Dantal suggested the right one but Fritz didn't hear/register and therefore grumpily dismissed it, then sent Dantal, who didn't dare to mention it again, away to do research. Dantal had just reached the city gate, when he was called back because Fritz had remembered the name at last and all was right with the world: "Now he was completely content again and the gentle tone with which he said "c'est fort bien", gave me back the trust/confidence [Zutrauen], which the critical moment had taken away before."
Ooh, this is surprisingly like and unlike the story of Fritz and Catt not being able to think of the name of an opera and going crazy over it. Specifically, it's rather more like the doctored version Catt tells in his memoirs in which Fritz is in the wrong, than in the diary where he comes across much more positively. The two versions of the anecdote, if anyone needs a reminder. (Thank goodness for Rheinsberg!)
Dantal also mentions the order that was kept in Fritz' libraries, and that they were sorted by content, not looks, i.e. without regard for different sizes next to each other, which some owners of libraries care for the most (ha)
Ha indeed! Now that's the mark of a serious reader. :D
(with the letters on the covers - "S" for the New Palais (the Palace of Sanssouci) for example, and of course Sanssouci had a "V" because Fritz always called it Vignes) and also mentiones that nobody was allowed to move the books in Fritz' room.
Oooh, so I new they had the letters on the covers, and I knew that he often referred to what we think of as Sanssouci as his "vineyard", but I didn't realize that extended as far as thinking of it as V and the New Palace as S! Huh.
the speech in which Isocrates is trying to convince Philippos to wage war against the barbarians [the Persians I think] to free Greece
The Persians, yes. Isocrates had a bee in his bonnet about crusading against the Persians for the sake of uniting the squabbling Greek city-states. ("Free Greece" is...well, I see it's a direct translation of Dantal, but we'll call it a euphemism for "aggressive war for ulterior motives couched as freeing Ionia, a gambit which Philip declined but Alexander took up, not because he gave a shit about Greece, but because it gave the first stage of his Rendezvous with fame a veneer of respectability, a la freeing the Silesian Protestants something something :P").
Though I believe it was a letter rather than a speech--ah, I see the French has "harangue" and the German translator has chosen to translate it "Rede". Which I guess can mean "address" as well as "speech", but I see why "speech" was the obvious choice. The thing about Isocrates is that none of his works, even the ones today called "speeches", were ever delivered orally. He was a written rhetorician only, in contrast to people like Demosthenes and Aeschines. (Was 4th century Athenian oratory what I was in the middle of studying in 2019 when I got sucked into full-time Fritz? You bet it was! :'D)
Oh, and skimming through Dantal, I see Fritz has opinions on the pronunciation of Greek names like Epaminondas, and he and Dantal don't always want to stress them on the same syllables. I mean, that's fair! Even English today usually has at least two different widely accepted pronunciations of polysyllabic Greek names, usually differing in stress placement.
Fritz' very own theory on Socrates death: It's the sculptors' fault! They feared for their income because Socrates spoke against polytheism, so they accused him of various political offenses and got him killed.
Points for creativity! I'm not sure I've encountered that before.
an asthma attack (that's what "Steckfluss" is, right? I'm not sure how the fact that he got an emetic plays into it, though)
Either asthma or pulmonary edema, aka water in the lungs. Since Fritz had dropsy (edema, water retention) at the end and a severe cough in that last year, I think he had congestive heart failure, his lungs were filled with fluid, and the enema might have been intended to drain some of the water.
Because when I read the following words - [about animals not being capable of reasoning] - the King turned to his favourite dog and said: "Do you hear, my mignonne, they are talking about you and claiming that you don't have reason [esprit], but you do have it, my little mignonne!"
Ah, that's where that anecdote comes from! I had shared it before, but never known the source or if it was reliable.
Good to know it was near the end and that Arsinoé might have been the final favorite!
During the last months, they go back to a lot of Voltaire, mostly the history works (Louis XIV and XV)
I had always read that the last thing Fritz had read to him in July, before he was in too much pain/too little consciousness, was Voltaire. I now, thanks to you, see that it was an account of Damiens, aka the gruesomely executed mentally ill guy who tried to assassinate Louis XV.
...What a note to go out on.
During the last weeks, Fritz often fell asleep while Dantal was reading - by then, he would be wearing his nightclothes already so he could just stay asleep if he wanted - and Dantal therefore stayed until 10 at night
Awww, this whole last paragraph is so exactly the kind of thing I wanted to know, thank you. <33 I might add this book to my reading list once my German is up to it. And then bonus points for having it in French and German, because I plan to start reading a lot of things in French that I've already read in English or German or both.
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
The part I left out here: on this occasion, he'd actually called Dantal early in the morning to collect some books for him (not sure if nobody but his reader was allowed in the library or why, Dantal doesn't say), so when Dantal came back from his walk into town, Fritz was supposed to be in a meeting with someone else, but called Dantal in first to tell him the right name and get the book in question. So, you know, priorities, even if it isn't quite keeping someone up at night.
Oooh, so I new they had the letters on the covers, and I knew that he often referred to what we think of as Sanssouci as his "vineyard", but I didn't realize that extended as far as thinking of it as V and the New Palace as S! Huh.
It did indeed. I'd encountered this before and made a note of it to remind myself, particularly because it could lead to confusion re: New Palais vs. Sanssouci when he refers to the "palais de Sanssouci" for example. (Had to think of it again during the recent discussion of his will, because the Vignes designation is yet another garden/nature-related preference.)
Speaking of his libraries, though - not sure if you are aware that they have their own searchable catalogue? So if you want to check if Fritz owned a copy of a certain book, and where he kept it, you can find out.
(Was 4th century Athenian oratory what I was in the middle of studying in 2019 when I got sucked into full-time Fritz? You bet it was! :'D)
Ahaha, I knew you'd have something to say about the classics reading and that I might be on thin ice translating what Dantal says about it because I lack context. Did not expect your knowledge to be quite this on point, though. ;) Lovely to get more context, also regarding the Greek pronunciation.
And I see you already read my comment on the German vs. French version of the book, so. :)
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Heee!
Speaking of his libraries, though - not sure if you are aware that they have their own searchable catalogue? So if you want to check if Fritz owned a copy of a certain book, and where he kept it, you can find out.
Yep, we had turned that up, but the unfortunate part is that I almost never want to know if Fritz had a certain book, I want to browse a list of books that he owned and go "Ooh, I didn't know he had that!" or "Never heard of this, let me find out more!" The catalogue is apparently based on a published list that's public domain, but I've never been able to find it. Bogdan Krieger, "Friedrich der Große und seine Bücher." Admittedly I haven't checked in a very long time, and I've turned up several new resources for finding scanned books since then, so I should check again. And I did see a relevant-looking Krieger article in one of the Hohenzollern yearbooks and made a mental note to check it out someday.
Huh, I found another book by him published in 1914, on the royal Hohenzollern book possessions, and I see that at least in 1914 the Bible Fritz used at Küstrin was still in the royal collection. It had been conveyed to Fritz by Eversmann (greatly in favor with the king), he underlined a lot of passages, illuminated some copperplate engravings, and designated (? bezeichnet) some passages. After he left Küstrin, the Bible was taken back by Eversmann, who passed it on to his descendants, until in the 19th century the family decided to give it to the royal collection. And this is all described in the handwritten note of the 19th century editor on the first page of the volume. (See, I can read German for research purposes as long as it's only a paragraph!)
But you are good at turning up volumes,
I might be on thin ice translating what Dantal says about it because I lack context.
Yeah, I could immediately see it was totally a game of telephones. "Harangue" -> "Rede" and "Rede" -> "speech" were both totally reasonable translator decisions! But in the end, we get Isocrates giving Philip a speech, to which I was like, "?? I need to Google this and make sure I'm not crazy." Oh, the other thing is that I'm like...90?...percent sure that Isocrates, unlike the aforementioned orators, never met Philip in person. Which is not to say that there wasn't a genre of things called "speeches" that were never presented in person. (To what extent the published speeches by actual orators who did deliver something along the lines of what they wrote in the Assembly actually resemble what they said out loud is hugely up for debate).
But in any case, Isocrates was constantly writing, "Let's all stop killing each other and go kill some Persians instead! It'll be great, just like the olden, golden days of our ancestors! Panhellenic crusade fuck yeah!" and being ignored by like everyone. :P
Did not expect your knowledge to be quite this on point, though. ;)
Lol, yeah, some days it's like, "Dio Cassius, yeah, I've heard of him," and others, it's like, "Settle in while we talk about 4th century Athens." ;) I do fully intend to someday pick up where I left off when I got interrupted by THE MOST WONDERFUL EXPERIENCE OF MY LIFE. German and French first, though!
ETA: Oh, Maecenas, I should say a word about him for at least
So yeah, when you see Europeans refer to him later, it's often in a context of "And you, rich person X, you will be a Maecenas, honored throughout the ages for your part in sponsoring our nation's counterpart to the Latin golden age, by which I mean give me money and I'll say nice things about you!" Manteuffel casting himself as the patron who is also the truth-teller to power, and focusing on the Maecenas-Augustus relationship, instead of the Maecenas/Vergil or Maecenas/Horace relationship is...I'm not widely read enough to know if it's unusual per se, but I certainly haven't seen it as often.
And there ends my knowledge of Maecenas. (There's a strong divide between Roman and Greek in terms of whether something falls into the "I've heard of that!" or "Settle in" category, although it's not absolute.)
Lovely to get more context, also regarding the Greek pronunciation.
I have to admit that I have noooo idea about 18th century French pronunciation of Greek names. I could see from Dantal that if I was willing to stop and work my way through a page, I could be enlightened! But while I'm curious, time is short, and I'll come back to it when my German and/or French are faster.
But in general, I think it's reasonable for speakers of modern European languages to have different ideas about how to pronounce Greek names, because you're really just translating into your own language. There's *no* way you're going to produce anything like authentic Greek (which wasn't even a stress-based language!), and Greek accentuation patterns just *really* do not match English, French, or German ones, not even as much as Latin (which is not much).
Ancient Greek phonology: something I studied *way* back when, and traces of which still float around in my brain, though I'm much more likely to say something wrong, so I'll stop here.
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Part I
Part II (starts with Greek Literature I see)
Part III
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)
Thank you for checking,
Maecenas
And yes, Manteuffel going for the Augustus and Maecenas relationship is unusual to my knowledge, too; the authors of the "Hervey and Fritz of Wales" essay when summarizing the "good" and "bad" favourite classical comparisons in Europe at that time point out that Hephaistion is usually the go-to-guy if you want to style yourself as the good favourite who is intensely close to his lord but also speaks truth to power when necessary, and is very competent, too. Of course, here two factors might have caused Manteuffel to go for Maecenas instead - Hephaistion is of the same age as Alexander (Maecenas was the same age like Augustus, too, but that's not relevant to the story) and a soldier, whereas Maecenas wasn't a soldier, that was Agrippa (of the two friends of Octavian's youth). And Manteuffel wasn't a soldier, either. Also? He's talking to a young man who approached him specifically for a cultural education originally, and to one who is always in need of money.
Which brngs me back to Maecenas. When I say he wasn't a soldier, I don't mean he wasn't into politics. On the contrary. He arranged Augustus' first marriage to Scribonia (which ended when Augustus married Livia, but not before resulting in poor Julia, his only daughter), and was responsible for negotiating the treasy of Brundisium which reconciled Octavian with Mark Antony (for some years, until, etc.), and was Augustus' regent in Rome while Augustus and Agrippa were off to fight Antony and Cleopatra at Actium. Also possible not irrelevant: Maecenas famously left Augustus all his money as well as his extensive gardens, which ended up being used by Nero as building ground for his Domus Aureus a few generation later.
Lastly: Maecenas was, among others, famously Horace's patron, and Manteuffel was really and genuinely into Horace; as mentioned in my write up, he translated all of Horace's poems for his own benefit (Latin to French, not Latin to German) in his old age. I don't know when Fritz started to discover Horace for himself (in French translation, of course), but Horace as far as I know was a later day favourite, and it might have been through Manteuffel at that.
Re: Maecenas
Maecenas: a reminder that Goethe in his late life poem for Carl August puns on Carl August's name and the traditional European Maecenas reference
Oh, right, I remember that now! Like
I don't know when Fritz started to discover Horace for himself (in French translation, of course), but Horace as far as I know was a later day favourite, and it might have been through Manteuffel at that.
The earliest Fritz-Horace connection I can think of off the top of my head is that ceiling Pesne painted at Rheinsberg, which, as a reminder to people who need it, had the names "Voltaire" and "Horace" painted on the pages of an open book. And that's after Fritz had gotten to know Manteuffel, so yes, could have been his influence at work there.
Re: Maecenas
Huh, I like the idea that Fritz discovered Horace through Manteuffel.
Re: Dantal: Dog Name, Reading, and other Details (1784-86)