cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

ETA: Whoops, I missed my cue -- this might as well be the next discussion post, I guess! :)

This is about the fic I didn't author (I have another reveals post for the fics I did author).

So my goal this Yuletide was NOT to write any historical fandom (because hard!) and just enjoy the excellent stuff that other people wrote. And... that sort of happened? I didn't end up authoring anything history-intensive? Buuuuut I ended up spending a lot more time than I did on any of my own fics working with

mildred_of_midgard on her fic, which she was worried about being able to pull off because she had had this completely insane idea to write a long casefic about Frederick the Great that every time I turned around had another twist put in :P :) She supplied me with what we called a "rough opal in matrix" bus pass casefic, and I cut away the matrix that remained and in some cases carved the opal -- that is to say, writing additional text for some of the scenes, what we liked to call "putting in feels," and in at least two cases entirely rewriting and/or restructuring the scene she'd written. She didn't always keep what I wrote (which we'd agreed upon in the beginning), but when she did (which was most of the time :) ) she then went in and rewrote/restructured what I put in to wordsmith (some of the words I gave her were really rough) and match her style, adding even more scenes -- that is, polishing it up and adding some gold and diamonds -- and voila, a beautiful pendant, I mean, story :)

I'm really proud of it and also it was really fun and also what I could handle this year, especially because mildred did all the parts I thought were hard and also wrote all the parts involving actual history or subtle AU before I was brought in so I didn't actually have to know historical stuff (though I guess I will never forget the battle of Leuthen now), and took full responsibility for how the whole thing turned out, so all I had to do was be like "Here, I'll write some rough feels for you for this scene!" The funny part was that I would often then write a paragraph justifying why I *had* to write the scene the way I did, and more likely than not mildred would be like, "yeah, I was sure you would do that, of course it should be written like that." (The most glaring example of this was where I inserted the Letter of Doom at the climax. I was worried there was some reason she didn't want it there, but she said, no, she just didn't have time to put it in herself and was just trusting me to do that :) ) She started jokingly calling me her "other self," to which I replied that it was with 1000% less angst and frustration -- as Frederick the Great's brother was his "other self" (which actually comes up in the fic) that he could trust to do all kinds of competent things, but they had a relationship that was, um, fraught? radioactive? Whereas this was just fun :)

Mildred did so much more than I did (we estimated a 90%/10% word ratio, not even counting the part where she wordsmithed a lot of my text) that I felt very uncomfortable being listed as a co-author, but hey, ~3000 words is a respectable Yuletide fic length :)

Yet They Grind Exceedingly Small (30384 words) by mildred_of_midgard
Chapters: 5/5
Fandom: 18th Century CE RPF, Historical RPF
Rating: Teen And Up Audiences
Warnings: Major Character Death
Relationships: Anna Amalie von Preußen & Wilhelmine von Preußen, Anna Amalie von Preußen & Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen, Wilhelmine von Preußen & Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth, Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great & Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia
Characters: Anna Amalie von Preußen (1723-1787), Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758), Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802), Elisabeth Friederike Sophie von Brandenburg-Bayreuth (1732-1780), Wilhelmine von Hesse-Kassel (1726-1808), August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758), Alcmene 1 | Frederick the Great's Italian Greyhound, Voltaire (Writer), Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Canon Divergence, Dysfunctional Family, Suicide, Alternate Universe - Dark, Siblings, Canon-Typical Violence, Mystery, Tide of History Challenge
Summary:

January 1758. Prince William is dead, some say of a broken heart. Frederick wants to absolve himself of blame for William's death. Henry schemes to end the Third Silesian War on his terms. Amalie and Wilhelmine team up to find out what really happened to their brother. Alcmene just wants to be told she's a good dog.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

(mine too, although I think we deploy them differently)

...okay, I think I agree with this but I can't articulate it, but I would like you to! Someday, I know now is perhaps not the time :P

And thank you again for putting in the deep curtsey for me :D <3

Edited 2021-01-15 05:50 (UTC)

I'm just reading all this with great pleasure and have nothing much to say about it, but I just wanted to say you should never feel sorry about randomly jumping in! We have been trying to get people to randomly jump in! Please randomly jump in all you like! :D

Yes, this! I meant to say this too but ran out of time by the time I realized I hadn't! That's what salon is FOR!

Well, I didn't get enough sleep for German, so here I am in salon.

I've been trying to articulate this for a while now, since realizing you shared my trope but every time you wanted to put it in one of our fics, I had a "Yes, but not there!" gut level reaction.

Every time I try to articulate "I prefer X to Y," I end up with some reason that's not true. Basically, as you know, I haven't been able to figure out why certain characters and pairings do or don't give me the feels in this fandom. (Aside from Fritz, who is 100% my usual type in every single fandom ever.)

If we look at the specific occasions you've put it in in our fics: Amalie to Heinrich doesn't fit my deployment of this trope because I think I prefer it when the character performing the gesture has complete and undivided loyalty and love for the recipient. I don't use it for love/hate. This is also why it doesn't work for me when Heinrich does it to Fritz. For Fredersdorf and Fritz, I *would* use this trope, but much later in their relationship when they know each other better and have become life partners.

Thinking about it, I *think* I tend to use it as a means of hurt/comfort from the character performing the gesture to the recipient. Which is why it almost works for me from Fredersdorf to Fritz, it's just too soon.

Now, I have no objection to it being deployed in the places you and Selena put or requested it! It just doesn't push my personal id buttons.

And thank you again for putting in the deep curtsey for me :D <3

My pleasure! As noted, I don't mind at all.

unless mildred tells me she wants to stop so we can do it together or something.

Nope, go for it! Turns out I no longer need reading group for German, nor do I even need quota and yelling! German has just gotten easy enough that I no longer have to fight to find the willpower to do it every day. Will let you know if something comes up such that I need to be yelled at again, but you reading things on your own is fine. I'll get to Orieux eventually, but not this month.

even to the extent of pestering the person for whom I'm betaing to put it in :D

:D

So I was reading Fritz' correspondence with both Paul-Henri Tilio de Camas and his wife, Countess de Camas. (And by the way, I was surprised to learn that Camas, born 1688, lost his left arm with 18 and instead of leaving the army, he got a prosthesis and kept rising through the ranks, got his own regiment in 1740, and then died 1741 in Breslau. (Damn.) Also new to me: his wife - born Sophie Caroline von Brandt - only got the title Countess de Camas after his death. She also gets called "maman" by Fritz a lot, and lived until 1766.)

Anyway, I came across some cryptic allusions from Fritz, cross-referenced a couple of other sources myself (see below), but wanted to ask if anybody knows for sure what was going on there.

First, letter to Camas from Berlin, January 1st, 1736:
[...] If the first day of the year, according to popular tradition, is the foreshadowing of the rest of the year, I expect to make great progress in the school of adversity during this one. I started out with a sick body and a distressed mind. An inhuman colic has been following me very severely for some time; it undermines me, and if it continues to increase, I can easily predict where it will lead me. At the same time, I have a just cause of affliction, which is sensitive to me to the bottom of my heart; it does not come from there, but from another part; it devours me, and all the more because I hide my sorrow. You who know me, you will be able to judge if I am able to resist double attacks like this. However, I drag myself along as I can, and until I feel defeated. However, it seems to me that it relieves me to have told you about my troubles. I beg you to take part in them, and not to preach to me either a morality beyond my reach, or a heroism which renders me insensitive to the events of life. I have a tender and compassionate heart, and I feel the misfortunes that happen to my friends as strongly as if they happened to me. Finally I could tell you too much, and imperceptibly, without thinking about it, I could reveal to you what it is about, having once resolved to keep this matter a secret, not out of mistrust of your discretion, but because one judges differently the causes of the sorrows of others. One considers it ridiculous to grieve; the other says it's not worth the trouble; in the end, everyone knows for himself where the shoe pinches, and it is enough that he knows it, he must be silent.
Farewell, my dear Camas; my compliments to the wife. Love me always a little, I beg of you, and count on the perfect esteem that I have for you.
Frederic.

And a week later: [...] My colic is getting better; but as regards my sorrow, I do not feel any decrease. I speak to myself, I reason, I moralize; but I feel that temperament still has the upper hand over reason. In the end, dear Camas, that of adversity is a hard school; I was, so to speak, born and brought up in it; it takes away a lot from the world, it shows the vanity of the objects it presents to us, their lack of solidity, and the inconstancy that the revolution of time brings with it. For someone my age, these are unpleasant thoughts; the flesh is loath to them. My temperament, which naturally leads me to joy, is like a dislocated limb wishing in vain to perform its ordinary duties. I prefer to keep myself from writing to you until I have reestablished peace and calm in my agitated mind, so I can talk to you about less sad and less disagreeable matters.

The next letter to Camas is from March and doesn't have anything to say on the matter.

Second, he also wrote a - similarly cryptic - letter to Wilhelmine, which is lost, but we have her response from January 29th and she has a theory: Your letter has me seriously worried; I don't understand what the cause of your grief may be, and why you want to bury yourself on your property. I hardly dare to say what I suspect, but I'm afraid you are in debt and don't know how to pay it back. Please tell me openly whether I guessed right; because maybe I'll find ways and means to rid you of this worry.

Volz has a footnote saying that Fritz returned 5000 taler to her after he became king, but there's no way to tell when she lend him the money or if it's related to this. Given that he's building Rheinsberg around the time, and that he has the vague "morality beyond my reach" line in his letter to Camas, Wilhelmine's guess might be it? But on the other hand, some of what Fritz writes to Camas seems a bit too much for just money troubles and the "it does not come from there, but from another part" made me think of the STD thing again. And then there's the question where his "tender and compassionate heart" and the "misfortunes of my friends" come in.

Finally, thanks to

selenak's write-up, I found a couple of possibly relevant entries in the secret diary of the Seckendorff nephew, which present several possible causes, from general FW-related misery to very specific, procreation-related misery:

December 25th, 1735:
The prince royal, who dined with us, was very thoughtful, and the king still increased his reverie by forcing him to empty, following our example, a full great glass of Tokay.

I didn't realize FW kept doing that so late in the game.

January 17th, 1736 (using Selena's translation):
Biberius tells me about the secrets, that Junior confided in Pöllnitz. The King encourages him to produce children, had him made a marital bed out of velvet. Biberius does not believe, that Junior will survive the father, but that pessimus Wilhelmus will succeed one day.

Confiding in Pöllnitz, really, Fritz? You know better. But, more to the point, I wonder if this was the crux of the matter, i.e. FW having too much interest in Fritz' sex life or lack thereof, plus, apparently, still rumours of changing the succession if there's no child. I see from the rest of the write-up that the Manteuffel talk about producing an heir takes place later in the same year, too.

That's all I got, but maybe you guys know more? Other possible sources I thought of start later (Suhm) or aren't available (Keyserlingk).

/Speaking of, though, what is up with the Keyserlingk correspondence being just gone? I found a couple of early references to it, mostly saying that there was a very lively one between him and Fritz, but then it's quickly just "missing". I'm suspicious and annoyed because that one must have been a treasure trove.

ZOMG, this was an amazing write-up, thank you so much!

We’ve got a very eloquent Crown Prince, haven’t we?

LOL

They use “Du” for each other btw. Not that that will be important for too long.

Lolsob.

I love your brother; that I am his friend is my greatest reason for happiness on this earth, the meaning of my existence even. In a very heterosexual way.

*dies*

I was a law student, which is somehow relevant

LOLOLOL

Wilhelmine has never considered that before.

And will never, I suspect.

Katte: “Alright, but please don’t leave before you reach Wesel, it won’t be safe.”
Wilhelmine: “Listen to the nice man, Fritz, wait until Wesel.”

This is exactly what I was going to bring up during the "What would Fritz do with time travel?" discussion: Selena proposed leaving earlier on the south Germany trip, and I've been meaning to ask why? Given the geography, everyone (at least Katte that I know of) was trying to get Fritz to wait until Wesel. Fritz's great besetting sin in life was not putting things off, it was jumping the gun. (I totally understand why he did on this occasion, but.)

That said, it so happens that in thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that Wesel specifically might have been too late: it was when FW got to Gueldern that he discovered Peter Keith had deserted. Given that he'd sent Peter to Wesel earlier that year specifically because he knew Peter was helping Fritz with his escape plans, this discover might have been enough to make FW tighten the guard on Fritz before he had a chance to sneak out of Wesel. (Again, I understand why Fritz feared putting it off until it was too late and would rather give himself multiple opportunities, and of course I understand his inability to wait one more day, even beside his normal "I'd rather be a hammer than an anvil" personality, as one biographer put it.)

See the chronology map I put together.

Keith is an unreliable Scotsman

Hello, 1914 Germany!

Wilhelmine: “That owls scream when they see light.”

Ha! This is so Wilhelmine; her memoirs are full of things like this.

Because literally everyone in this play is super into Katte. Wilhelmine is the least into Katte and she’s supposedly in love with him.

LOL FOREVER

Katte is also not done by simply saying “The Crown Prince allowed me to copy it, I made it, it’s mine”, no-o, this Katte apparently said that he “would rather die than give up Wilhelmine’s image”. Wilhelmine swoons a little at that and I believe I saw a glimpse of my own brain while rolling my eyes.

LOL FOREVER SQUARED

Katte: “Funny is a word that is hard to define, but apparently the rest of the court had a blast listening to me talking about figuring out my horse’s dietary restrictions after it almost died. I don’t get it either, maybe I’m just that charming.”

Okay, so...are the horse's dietary restrictions your own invention or is this in the play? I must know!

Because fuck what happens to Fritz, I guess. Having feelings that are consistent for more than two lines is hard for me."

LOLOLOL I AM DEAD FROM LOLZ

Katte says that he doesn’t need it anymore because he will get arrested.

Wow. That's...something.

Thank you for this, this is so great!

MY EYES! You did warn me, lol, I have only myself to blame. WOW.

This. WOW.

One considers it ridiculous to grieve; the other says it's not worth the trouble; in the end, everyone knows for himself where the shoe pinches,

I don't have time to reply, but one quick note doing my duty as resident classicist: for those who don't recognize this, it's an allusion to Plutarch's Life of Aemilius Paulus.

A Roman once divorced his wife, and when his friends admonished him, saying: "Is she not discreet? is she not beautiful? is she not fruitful?" he held out his shoe (the Romans call it "calceus"), saying: "Is this not handsome? is it not new? but no one of you can tell me where it pinches my foot?"

Fritz is like, you should get a new phone! No, you can't expense it.

Fritz probably writes frequent emails to All Staff all the time Re: Tips to Keep Your Batteries Lasting Longer. Some of these tips are actually completely incorrect but hey, he does them and his batteries last longer than everyone else's,

Lol, OMG, these are the BEST ideas and I might have to steal one or both! :D

Like Wilhelmine, Fritz doesn't believe in ghosts or prophetic dreams, so...maybe the former?

It's been too long since I read this: how much does the ghost have to talk vs. just squire him around? Can one of his dogs be the ghost of Christmas present?

Victorious Napoleon visiting Fritz' tomb - the one Fritz didn't want to lie in, next to Dad in a church! - is a sight sure to shock Fritz the way his tomb shocked Scrooge!

OMG yes. I'm torn between whether this makes Fritz realize the moral of the story is to be *nicer* to his nephew, versus confirming him in this belief that his nephew is The Worst. I mean, realistically the latter, 100%, but we *are* talking A Christmas Carol remake here...

that portrait of hers which Fritz kept in his study is going to talk to him.

I like it!

I loved all the Amalie & Wilhelmine, which was one of the prompts/requests I had which was afraid would never be fulfilled!

<33 It wouldn't have been if I'd had to do a character study, which is why I bugged you into requesting AW, but once I had a plot, I was able to work them in without feeling like their characterization and interactions had to be worthy of a standalone story.

I'm glad it worked!

And yes, as mildred says, I flagged that bit as well as something where I had to suspend disbelief :)

As noted, I wrote myself into *several* corners with this fic. I didn't want to include this bit at all! The premise was supposed to be "dark!Heinrich kills Fritz" in something like our universe. As you know, I couldn't make this work, so I went for making him a slightly less dark (but still not our Heinrich) version with more pressure on him. But I wasn't thrilled with that.

Then I wanted to show his conflicting feelings about and loyalty to Fritz, because I know that's what you're there for, and I got as far as expressing my frustration to

cahn that my fic had made that basically impossible by making Fritz DEAD by the time Heinrich shows up, and she said, quite correctly, "You can't! It doesn't fit and we don't have time and Selena's already done that--it just has to be a dark AU." And she was right, but please know that I tried.

Several points during the writing, I had to argue with my internal editor that 1) you would understand the time crunch I was writing under, and 2) the strengths of the fic were just going to have to carry the story in spite of the weak points, and that there were enough strengths to carry the weaknesses I couldn't eliminate. I kept wanting to push back the beginning of the story to show Heinrich handling Fritz and how that was far less Heinrich's screw-up than Fritz's ability to twist anything around into criticism of himself when under enough stress (see also my opinion on the Albert condolence letter), but in lieu of enough time to develop that plot line, you got a "this Heinrich screwed up, moving on" in the first scene.

We'll just say Heinrich in this universe has less tolerance for Fritz's BS than canonically, and that leads to both the initial misjudgment and the willingness to authorize murder, and next time I'll try to write you the Heinrich of our universe. (The bug just bit me on this AU, and then I fenced myself into corner after corner in fleshing it out.)

Apropos your lovely icon post: the more often I see this version of him, the more I like it. Even if he's very gaunt and very tall and doesn't have blue eyes.

One thing I've been wondering, though - is that flute authentic? I know the colour is, but it seems quite large. (Thinking about it, as does the book. As I've learned, Fritz liked his octavos.)

I do think that with more time we could have finessed it a bit more so that it was a little more subtle of a miscalculation -- like, instead of Heinrich going on about how many mistakes Fritz made, just bringing up AW at the wrong time... but Fritz using that to double down on criticizing AW. But I know you (mildred) also wanted to show him as darker than our universe, so there were some competing things going on there.

"You can't! It doesn't fit and we don't have time and Selena's already done that--it just has to be a dark AU." And she was right, but please know that I tried.

I think you (selenak) can see how this got to be 30k! Mildred also debated putting in Louise to be nicer to Amalie:

as much as Louise would be perfect Watsonianly, I'm not sure a fic as tight as this can take another character. I'm not dead set against it

and I mercilessly squelched this idea too: I am dead set against Louise, I don't have the time to alpha-and-beta integrating her in :PP

But I don't even feel sorry, because a) neither of us DID have the time b) her idea to put in Amalie's Mental Health Day was brilliant and I'm really glad to have it :)

I think I prefer it when the character performing the gesture has complete and undivided loyalty and love for the recipient.

Fair enough! Yes, that's really different. I actually think I'd probably be less likely to prefer it in that case, because as I said, I prefer loyalty gestures to say something in addition to the loyalty -- either commenting on a complex loyalty situation, like Amalie->Heinrich or Heinrich->Fritz, or a potentially complex situation resulting in a decision to pledge loyalty (young!Fredersdorf->Fritz). (Though that one is also the weakest id-wise for me as well; though still iddy for me, it also functioned as the most over-the-top way Fredersdorf could communicate what he wanted to Fritz.)

Is there a fic (either written by you or someone else) where this is done in a way that pushes your buttons? I mean, not for any reason. :P (And certainly not for any reason right now!)

Question: I was vaguely thinking about writing a musical post in DW for people not in this fandom and linking to your file -- would that be OK?

Well, they were for you!

While I doubt they let the film people use one of Fritz' rl flutes (aka the one still on exhibition in Sanssouci), my guess is that they did go to the trouble of having someone create an accurate reproduction. As far as I recall, the size fits what I've seen from this kind of 18th century traverse flute. (Hence the need to take the flute apart for transport.)

Re: Arno W. as Fritz - I know what you mean. :) The gauntness can be handwaved since an icon doesn't say this is before and early in the 7 Years War, not in the later stages and after when he actually was gaunt, and his tallness comes across when he's next to other people, which except for the Fredersdorf one he's not in the icons.) (Otoh you really see that the Italian greyhounds were pets, not hunting or attack dogs, definitely small enough to be put under one's coat in the winter...)

Selena proposed leaving earlier on the south Germany trip, and I've been meaning to ask why?

I don't disagree with you on geography, and that Wesel would have been the perfect transition point on that count because he can go to the Netherlands from there right away. But time travelling Fritz would know that the game was essentially up by then already, not just for him but also Katte and Keith, whereas no one expects him to make a run for it earlier. And the Rhineland principalities and free cities are full of anti-Prussian feeling, while Ansbach, where they wanted to visit his sister, after all, is like neighboring Bayreuth surrounded by Catholic Church territory where FW has pissed off the Prince Bishops by kidnapping some of their taller subjects. Meaning: they might not be so eager to help FW pursue and arrest his fleeing son.

how much does the ghost have to talk vs. just squire him around? Can one of his dogs be the ghost of Christmas present?

It's been eons since I've read it, too, but I just looked it up, and the ghost just has to identify himself as what he is. Which presumably the dog could do as Fritz has gotten good at reading his dogs. :) (Also he or rather she could wear a knitted cheery Christmas outfit!)

I'm torn between whether this makes Fritz realize the moral of the story is to be *nicer* to his nephew, versus confirming him in this belief that his nephew is The Worst. I mean, realistically the latter, 100%, but we *are* talking A Christmas Carol remake here...

Well, there's that. :) Btw, what would be the worse shock in your opinion - finding his tomb to be sans dogs and with Dad in a church, or seeing a victorious French guy who's stolen his thunder as the biggest event in 18th century military matters and beaten Prussia stroll around there? (True, he might be mollified by Napoleon's admiring tribute to him on the later count, but he wouldn't be able to hear that for the vision to work as intended.) (BTW, FW2 was already dead by then as well, so can't be blamed for the Prussian defeat.)

Fritz: But Heinrich's ex Kalckreuth was alive and one of the generals involved! Heinrich's terrible taste in boyfriends: proven once again.

I bet it was, and do instinctively suspect 19th century Hohenzollern censorship. I would say the survival of the Marwitz letters argues against that, but otoh technically these incriminate only Heinrich and Marwitz and Fritz' attitude could be written off as "he was just being sarcastic and trying to toughen Heinrich up". Whereas I bet this would not have been the case in letters between him and Caesarion.

But on the other hand, some of what Fritz writes to Camas seems a bit too much for just money troubles and the "it does not come from there, but from another part" made me think of the STD thing again. And then there's the question where his "tender and compassionate heart" and the "misfortunes of my friends" come in.

....I think Gröben is back as a suspect for spreading STD and getting into gambling debts as well, is what I think. (Not least because this reminds me a bit of the whole Reisewitz matter in the originally censored part of the Lehndorff diaries (i.e. those passages in volume 2 from 1752/1753 when Heinrich has just found out Reisewitz has been skeevy with his (Heinrich's money) and his emotional reaction as described by Lehndorff matches that of Fritz above; and he does cover Reisewitz' debts.) It would also explain why he was being cryptic with Wilhelmine as well, because I think if money had been the only problem, he'd have told her point blank.

I wonder if this was the crux of the matter, i.e. FW having too much interest in Fritz' sex life or lack thereof, plus, apparently, still rumours of changing the succession if there's no child. I see from the rest of the write-up that the Manteuffel talk about producing an heir takes place later in the same year, too.

Yes, and rumors about FW changing the succession in favor of AW would still go around as late as 1739 since they show up in Fritz' correspondence with Wilhelmine that year (where he tells her he's sure AW is on his side and is being honest, helping as much as he can and not scheming against him). Though again, if FW pushing him to produce an heir was the key cause of his January 1736 misery, I think he'd have been more explicit about it in his letters to Camas at least. Which I hadn't read yet, though the letters to Countess Camas were on my to do list for a while, so thank you for reading them!

I didn't realize FW kept doing that so late in the game.

(*looks at the date, December 25th* Talk about the ghost of Christmas Past!) FW: never skippping that power gesture if he can. After all, he did it to Fritz of Bayreuth as well, and he'd run out of successors to poor Grundling whom he could force to drink, plus I bet the goodwill Fritz earned by marrying in the first place was now being replaced by irritation of the lack of pregnancies, especially given FW, as ever, would apply his own experience to his children, which was that he and SD never had problems conceiving issue, even if the first few babies were either female or died. Wilhelmine also got pregnant almost immediately, and so did poor Friederike and Charlotte. I can see FW concluding that clearly, Fritz couldn't be trying very hard.

(Fritz of Wales, from overseas: At least he didn't accuse his son of being impotent and bent on substituting an anonymous baby as heir?)

30k of awesomeness, and once again, I salute the both of you for this superb gift. And yes, Louise would have been one character too many. Good call!

Ha! This is so Wilhelmine; her memoirs are full of things like this.

Indeed! :D I've got to admit, as dumb as this play is: Wilhelmine is done rather well overall (apart from the whole Katte part). She gets some great lines and is generally entertaining. The memoirs appear to be Burte's main primary source and are quoted verbatim at times, but for reasons unknown he does not mention the "Katte, that absolute dumbass, gave me a letter in plain view of Fr. v. Ramen"-scene :P

are the horse's dietary restrictions your own invention or is this in the play? I must know!

I wish I had made this up, but they really are in the play! Katte told people "My horse got terribly sick when we fed it scraps of the bread the army gets, now that we eat all the bread ourselves it's doing great" and people in Monbijou thought it was hilarious. Not even just a small chuckle like "Lol, the army bread sucks", no, he appears to be the star of the party with this story. Katte is also very confused as to why people reacted like that. It's almost as if the "we all think Katte is a swell guy"-algorhythm malfunctioned :'D

I bet it was, and do instinctively suspect 19th century Hohenzollern censorship.

Yeah, my first thought, too. :( It's quite the blank space, because he was obviously very important in Fritz' life, and yet, I only have a very vague idea of him - basically just the couple of times he shows up in passing in the Voltaire correspondence, his eulogy by Maupertuis (mostly for some actual facts about his life), some vaguely reliable Bielfeld (I think?) anecdotes, and the letters Fritz wrote after his death which I've been collecting...

....I think Gröben is back as a suspect for spreading STD and getting into gambling debts as well, is what I think. (Not least because this reminds me a bit of the whole Reisewitz matter

Huh. Interesting, and not something I'd have thought of. Might not necessarily be Gröben, given that there were quite a few people in Fritz early Ruppin/Rheinsberg circle, but the general idea seems to make sense! I was kind of stuck on how much weight to place on the "friend" line vs. something that's more directly relevant to Fritz, but this would work.

Idle speculation of course, but apart from the possible money/gambling thing, if somebody he did have sex with came down with an STD, it would make sense that he'd be worried both for them and that he might have gotten it himself. Which of course would be the perfect time for an extended stay in Berlin, during which FW starts pressuring him about an heir, gifting him a special marital bed and all. :P

if FW pushing him to produce an heir was the key cause of his January 1736 misery, I think he'd have been more explicit about it in his letters to Camas at least

Okay, point. Especially since he openly mentions it to Manteuffel, too.

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Page 6 of 13

Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 22 (or: Yuletide 2020 edition)

Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie

Re: Cousin Katte's Correspondence

Re: Cousin Katte's Correspondence

Loyalty gesture tropes

Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie

Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Katte - A Tragicomedy (the first half)

Re: Strange historical fiction among other things

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: Poached Eggs and Boiled Frogs

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: PICSPAM

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: Loyalty gesture tropes

Re: Friedrich: Mythos und Tragödie

Re: Poached Eggs and Boiled Frogs

Re: Sachsens Glanz und Preußens Gloria: PICSPAM

Re: Katte - A Tragicomedy (the first half)

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736

Re: The Adventure of the Time-Traveling Valet - and Heinrich/Grind

Re: Katte - A Tragicomedy (the first half)

Re: Fritz Mystery Affliction January 1736