cahn | Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

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frederick the great

Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

Yuletide nominations:

18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)

Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti

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This brings me, though, to one thing all the Émilie books agree on without ever poviding citation and quotes to back it up, and which I have to say I must question, to wit: Madame Denis as "eager to please, not talking back, conventionally feminine and either of mediocre intelligence" (the non fiction crowd) or downright stupid (Gunderson). Now, as I said before, I don't doubt that there was something of the cliché of "man in midlife crisis goes for sexy young thing" in the whole Voltaire/Denis relationship starting when it did. But given how Madame Denis appears throughout the rest of Voltaire's life, and given the utter lack of eager to please quotes from her in these books, it seems to me our Émilie biographers approach the question with a pre-formed idea (Émilie was too challenging, ergo he went for a bimbo) and don't bother to back it up. Why do I think that? Not because I see her as a misjudged genius, no. But consider this:

- Denis' father dies in 1737, her mother, Voltaire's sister, died five years easier; from this point onwards, Marie-Louise and her two siblings (Elisabeth and the later Abbé Mignot, to come in handy when a Christian burial ground for Voltaire is wanted) , get into closer contact with Uncle Voltaire; he tries to do the conventional thing and finding good marriages for the girls; Elisabeth marries the guy Voltaire suggests, Marie-Louise refuses and picks her own man, Nicholas Denis which slightly surprises Voltaire, but he goes with it and provides her with the same dowry as her sister got. (Marie-Lousise becomes Madame Denis in 1738.) This also when the soon to be married Marie-Louise visits Cirey for the first time but thinks she couldn't stand living in the middle of nowhere. At this point, Voltaire's contact with his nieces and nephew is there but mostly limited to letters and providing financial support since he's the rich uncle, and he doesn't, for example, attend either of the weddings.

- The relationship between Voltaire and Marie-Louise Denis doesn't become intimate (in either sense of the word) until she's widowed and in her early 30s. This still makes her far younger than him, not to mention the incest factor, but, especially given the era they live in, an easily impressionable youngster, she's not, but an adult woman.

- We don't know who initialized the relationship turning sexual (at least not according to the books I've read so far), but she's definitely the one setting the parameters (for example, when Voltaire in a letter expresses the hope of becoming her only lover, she immediately shoots that down; she always had other lovers, and he knew that, not least because some of them ended up having debts he had to help out with. She also refused to come to Prussia with him until the very end of his stay there.

- it's noticeable that Voltaire's memoir-writing valet from the 1730s and early 1740s, Longchamps, complains about Émilie being bossy (not just towars him but Voltaire), while Voltaire's memoir-writing valet from the 1750s, Collini, complains about Madame Denis being bossy (towards not just him, but Voltaire); I'd say either Voltaire just was happy to hand over the thankless task of saying no to the women, or he was into being dominated by them, or both

- as for her intelligence; definitely not a genius like Émilie, but smart and educated enough to know several languages. Also, she wrote as early as 1750 to the Marquis d'Argenson (not be confused with the Marquis d'Argens) when evidently the first grumbling from Prussia had reached her: My uncle is not made to live with kings. His character is too irrepressible, too inconsistent and too unruly; even three years ago, I predicted what is currently happening, but one hadn't thanked me for it then. Spot-on, I'd say.

So, she might have been every bit as greedy for money as Orieux accuses her as having been, but she doesn't come across as stupid, weak-willed or, for that matter, eager to please. Could she have faked such an attitude towards Voltaire in the 1740s when his relationship with her started, only dropping the pretense later? Sure. But in lack of a quote where she does just that, it remains guesswork, with no more canon basis than assuming Saint-Lambert of being her male equivalent towards Émilie.

Back to the actual books. One thing

cahn did not mention, which has nothing to do with Émilie, was Zinsser in her summary of Voltaire's pre-Émilie life and loves springs this on us:

Historians have sugggested the young Voltaire was molested at his college by the Jesuit instructors.

They have? Sadly, no source citation for this one from Zinsser. Orieux certainly does not suggest it, though bear in mind he published his biography in 1966.

mildred_of_midgard, you've read a more recent Voltaire bio, does this one include this speculation, and if so, does it say what it's based on? I mean, it's obviously not impossible (insert current day statistics here), but otoh Orieux does provide several citations, with letters, chapter and verse, of Voltaire having good memories of his school days, keeping in touch with several of his teachers, caring about their opinion of his plays and still writing in praise of some of the Jesuits who taught him as late as the 1740s, when he was busy crusading against the Catholic Church as an institution everywhere else. Now, Voltaire was a contradictory creature all his life, and again, of course it's possible that he liked some of his teachers and loathed others, that the ones whom he praised were not the ones who abused him, or even that he had mixed feelings for an abuser if said abuser was also a good teacher otherwise. But: I would like to have more than "historians have suggested" to base this on, especially with someone like Voltaire, otherwise not known to have kept quiet about anything bad that ever happened to him.

Zinsser then continues to make her case for Voltaire the bisexual by continuing, right after this sentence: Voltaire could also have had his initiation in the libertine circles he frequented when his father sent him to study law in Rouen, or when he first arrived in Paris.

Judith Zinsser, being molested by your teacher as a school boy is quite a different thing to being "initiated" as a willing partner by whoever. The former is also not saying anything about your eventual orientation.

During the years of the Regency, Voltaire was invited to La Source, the chateau of the English political exile Lord Bolingbroke, and probably to his gatherings in Paris as well. Bolingbroke was openly homosexual, modeling himself on Alcibiades and Petronius as the wise elder man schooling his young protegés in political philosophy and erotica. Voltaire was sixteen when they first met. Intimate male friendships, perhaps some having a sexual aspect, were characteristic of the Republic of Letters. Voltaire and Maupertuis, for example, were part of a network of young men of intellect, in a sense a coterie within the Republic of Letters, who wrote letters of introduction to each other, entertained one another, and perhaps exchanged sexual favors, just as they exchanged their verses, treatises and books.

(That's a lot of "perhaps" there.)

This network made Voltaire's exile in England particularly rewarding. (...) Voltaire also maintained his ties to Lord Hervey, the courtier and confidant to Queen Caroline of England. In September 1733, Voltaire reccomended the English version of his 'Lettres philosophiques' to him, and asked the 'charming lord', known for his relationships with women and men, to 'remember a Frenchman who is devoted to your lordship forever with the utmost respect, and loves you passionately.'

What amuses me here is the "Gay (English) network" idea, when Halsband in his Hervey biography, quoting that same letter, goes "how utterly French of Voltaire". He also provides a bit more context for the Hervey and Voltaire relationship, including, remember, Hervey asking for Voltaire's opinion on his poetry, but also Hervey being angry when reading Voltaire's tongue-in-cheek dedication of the "English Letters" to an English merchant where he makes that crack about the nobility on both sides of the channel versus the non-noble merchants. Now, Halsband discusses Hervey's same-sex relations with Stephen Fox and with Algarotti and the whatever it was pre breakup with Fritz of Wales in as much detail as available, so I guess if he'd had any indication there was homoerotic interest between Voltaire and Hervey, he'd have mentioned it, but he didn't. So: if I'm to buy a bi Voltaire, I want a bit more than Rokoko-style over the top letter greetings and socializing with gay and bi people. (English or otherwise.) How's this as a concluding irony: Zinsser rightly points out that we don't have definite proof for Émilie/Maupertuis, that the flirtatious tone in her early letters and her having his portrait in her bedroom could be explained otherwise, and the assumption of an affair later from outside sources based on the sexist idea that a woman can't want a teacher for anything but a romance. And yet she comes up with a whole lot of assumptions here that are based on far less.

ALSO fascinating :D

when Voltaire in a letter expresses the hope of becoming her only lover, she immediately shoots that down; she always had other lovers, and he knew that, not least because some of them ended up having debts he had to help out with.

omg I have to say this is hilarious.

Historians have sugggested the young Voltaire was molested at his college by the Jesuit instructors.

You know, I think I just ignored that (and the other stuff too) because she was clearly trying to make Voltaire bisexual, and... it just really really sounded like she was trying too hard (quite a long time ago I went through a period of reading author biographies where they were arguing everyone was bi or gay; maybe some of those people actually were, but even naive trusting me found it hard to believe everyone was) and Voltaire didn't really come across like that to me anyway from what you guys were saying, even with Fritz. ~~of course, there was the additional problem with Fritz that neither of them would shut up enough to actually have sex~~

Though yeah, I didn't remember about this when you told us about the Jesuit instructors that he really liked, which I thought was awfully endearing and which I agree would falsify the hypothesis.

I looked up the relevant passage in Orieux again, and here it is once more:

"I was educated for seven years by men who kept trying unceasingly to educate the mind of youth. Since when shouldn't one be grateful to one's teachers? Nothing will extinguish in my heart the memory of Father Porée, who is dear to all who have learned from him. No one has managed to make studies and virtue more charming. His lessons were marvellous hours for us, and I wish that he'd have had a position in Paris as he'd have had in ancient Athens, and that people of every age could have participated in his lessons: I'd have gone back often to listen." (...)

He wrote this in 1746, a beautiful homage to his teachers (...) They had no more devoted student, he sent them his books, he awaited their judgement full of impatience. To Father Tournenmine, he writes: "My very dear worthy Father, is it true that you like my 'Merope'?" (...)When he isn't in Paris, he sends his friend Thiériot with his latest tragedy to Father Brumoy: "In God's name, run to Father Brumoy, to the Patres who must never become my enemies. (...) Assure them of my unchanged affection, I do owe it to them, they have educated me, and one must be a monster if one isn't grateful to those who have nourished one's mind."
His father never had a right to such a proof of his gratitude - his true fathers were those who nourished his mind; the other - or others, since he declared three candidates for his biological father - not worth talking about! (...)
And how could his teachers have forgotten him? With twelve, he was already unforgettable. He didn't often play during breaks, he talked to the teachers. They tell us that he was interested in contemporary events, or, as we would put it today, "in politics". "He enjoyed putting the great interests of Europe into his small scales," Father Porée says.

Again, it's possible that Orieux, publishing in the 1960s, either censored himself or did not know some key document (after all, he and all other biographers didn't know Voltaire had reworked his 1750 to 1753 correspondance with Madame Denis, either). And yes, every abuse victim experiences it differently, and it's possible Voltaire was in denial, or blamed just one particular teacher. But given all these positive utterings at a time where he really had no need for his teachers' approval anymore - I mean, by 1747, he was the hands down most famous intellectual of Europe, with two stints in the Bastille and half a century of life time in his repertoire, not to mention a fanboy on the Prussian throne -, I really want to know what exactly this hypothesis of Zinsser's is based on.

Edited 2020-10-17 10:27 (UTC)

*nods* Yeah, I suppose it's theoretically possible, but it just doesn't seem to jibe at all with what you've quoted here. Also, this is Voltaire, of all the people to let any kind of abuse just sit without attacking it, he... would not be even slightly the person I'd think of.

of course, there was the additional problem with Fritz that neither of them would shut up enough to actually have sex

I thought we agreed they would have to settle for hand jobs, because neither of them would let the other top, and neither would shut up long enough for a blowjob. :P Which I thought was especially funny because Selena and I both *independently* came up with the idea that they wouldn't shut up long enough for oral. It's funny cause it's true!

haha, right! :D

So, she might have been every bit as greedy for money as Orieux accuses her as having been, but she doesn't come across as stupid, weak-willed or, for that matter, eager to please.

Just based on the one bio I've read plus the quotes I've seen elsewhere, I have to agree.

Historians have sugggested the young Voltaire was molested at his college by the Jesuit instructors.

They have? Sadly, no source citation for this one from Zinsser. Orieux certainly does not suggest it, though bear in mind he published his biography in 1966.

mildred_of_midgard, you've read a more recent Voltaire bio, does this one include this speculation

Nope, I see nothing. I didn't remember it, and I rescanned the passage just now, and nothing.

Judith Zinsser, being molested by your teacher as a school boy is quite a different thing to being "initiated" as a willing partner by whoever. The former is also not saying anything about your eventual orientation.

Omg, I remember commenting on my annoyance with Bodanis over his "Frederick was gay, and Voltaire was not. With a certain amount of deft footwork, he intended to remain that way." Falling victim to a sexually predatory monarch (assuming you see Frederick as that, which I don't see a lot of evidence for, though I suppose it's possible it crossed Voltaire's mind that he might end up being expected to do more than kiss hands) doesn't make you gay!

How's this as a concluding irony: Zinsser rightly points out that we don't have definite proof for Émilie/Maupertuis...And yet she comes up with a whole lot of assumptions here that are based on far less.

Wow, yeah. When you have an axe to grind...

Nope, I see nothing. I didn't remember it, and I rescanned the passage just now, and nothing.

Okay, since this biographer was the one who informed us on the Madame Denis 50 - 53 letters and thus is up to date with the recent research, I'm assuming he'd know. So now I wonder whether the reason Zinsser doesn't provide a footnote to "historians have suggested" is that what she means is "my theory is that..."

And God yes, this assumption that you become gay from an unwanted approach, let alone molestation, is incredibly annoying.

On a lighter note: though I suppose it's possible it crossed Voltaire's mind that he might end up being expected to do more than kiss hands) doesn't make you gay!

Quite, and for those of us just joining us, here's the glorious quote for the trashy tell all memoirs again: He was accuſtomed to very singular demonstrations of tenderness to younger favourites than I, and forgetting for a moment I was not of their age and had not a fine hand, he seized it and imprinted a kiss, I took his, returned his salute, and signed myself his slave.

Okay, since this biographer was the one who informed us on the Madame Denis 50 - 53 letters and thus is up to date with the recent research, I'm assuming he'd know.

I don't trust him quite that much, but it is a definite mark against Zinsser having any source at all.

Also, something I ran across today: props to MacDonogh, 1999, for saying that "recent research has cast some doubt on the [orange peel] episode", though he gives you absolutely no indication who or why, and it's very easy to miss.

I'm starting to think his scholarship is very uneven: sometimes better than you'd expect, sometimes worse.

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Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser

Re: Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser

Re: Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser

Re: Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser

Re: Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser

Re: Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser

Re: Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser

Re: Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser

Re: Addenda re: Madame Denis in all three books and Voltaire's backstory in Zinsser