Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

[cahn]

Yuletide nominations:

18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)

Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti

Comments

Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[felis]

Hi! Mildred invited me to share a journal post I made yesterday for discussion, so here I am. I'm currently reading the Fritz-Voltaire correspondance (pretty slowly, as I keep getting side-tracked) and in my entry I talked about a Fritz letter from February 3rd 1739 that I found rather charming (not least because of the geekiness content to be honest). I'll just repost most of it here, with a few alterations:

First he complains that - because he's still recovering from one of his many health crises - his doctors, more cruel than the disease itself, want him to exercise daily instead of study all the time [sidenote: when was that whole "40 cups of coffee instead of sleep" experiment? earlier probably] and then he immediately finds a connection to his philosophy studies, musing:

Unfortunately the mind seems to be only the accessory of the body; it is disturbed at the same time as the organization of our machinery, and matter cannot suffer without the spirit also feeling it. This union so close, this intimate connection is, it seems to me, a very strong proof of Locke's sentiment. What thinks in us is certainly an effect or a result of the mechanics of our animated machinery. Any sensible man, any man who is not imbued with prejudice or self-esteem, must agree.

After that, he gives Voltaire an update on all the things he's been doing/planning, which include

a) physics experiments with a vacuum pump [although only the first - does a clock keep its pace in a vacuum? - is actually physics in hindsight, the second - does a plant seed grow without air? - is not]
b) getting a Berlin astronomer to test his wild theories regarding the causes of winds and air currents

and - That's enough for physics. -

c) fanfic ideas: I made plans for a tragedy; the subject is taken from the Aeneid; the story of the play was to represent the tender and constant friendship of Nisus and Euryale.

[As far as I know, he pretty quickly abandoned the physics interest and he never wrote that Nisus/Euryalus fic tragedy, instead he soon got caught up in writing the Antimachiavell. Nonetheless, he occasionally invoked them in other writings and they did make it into his Temple of Friendship at Sanssouci as one of four homoerotic Greek pairings.
I admit that I had to look them up because I was unaware of the story. After reading about it, I could not help but wonder about the emotional background and possible Katte connections behind Frederick's choice of subject/lovers. What with the loyalty and the age difference and the unsuccessfully trying to save one's lover's life after getting caught and everything ending in death. (Except that, of course, Fritz lived and was forced to be present at Katte's execution.)
Be that as it may, I certainly think that Fritz, lover of statues, would have very much appreciated this Nisus/Euryalus one.]

Back to the letter, and on a lighter note, following the list of plans is a playful and of course complimentary passage about Voltaire's work output - For you, my dear friend, are an incomprehensible being to me. I doubt that there is a Voltaire in the world; I thought up a system to deny his existence., i.e. a whole academy of people who are writing under the name of Voltaire - which concludes with the request to work less for the sake of his health (the exact thing Fritz isn't doing and complained about at the start of the letter; very much in character).

Voltaire in his February 28th response says that Fritz should take his own health advice, and that perhaps Nisus/Euryalus fic is more suitable during a time of recovery than maths. (Which I can only agree with.)

[Added:] He also tells Fritz that they immediately set up the vaccum pump/clock experiment at Cirey and reports on his findings. Émilie on the other hand, in her own letter dated February 27th, tells Fritz that she's totally delighted by his physics interest - he read her work on fire around that time as well and discussed a couple of points with her before this - and hey, there's this W. Derham guy in London who wrote a whole article about this experiment in 1705, here's the reference if you want to find and read it. (So much for amateurs I guess. :D)

So, yeah, this made me smile. It's also very much a "crown prince Fritz at Rheinsberg" letter, because


-- and this is where I added a couple of mostly non-letter related thoughts, which I'll just put here as well --

still pre-meeting and pre-ascension to the throne, there are a lot of things not present in this letter - the sharp sarcasm for example (which could be very witty, or mocking and hurtful, or both), or the often imperious and short-tempered attitude of King Frederick. Part of what makes reading about all of this so interesting are the constant shifts: One minute I'm laughing out loud because a quote is hilarious or daring or WTF, the next I just can't help being touched or impressed, and the next it's "damn it, you asshole".
I certainly see why "enigma" or "contradictory" are terms often used about Frederick, although I think the first one gives the wrong impression of only getting an incomprehensible facade. While he certainly knew - and learned by necessity - how to pretend and how to hide when he wanted (something that's sometimes hard to parse even before you get to the general OTT rococo-ness of the age), I still think there's a lot of insight to be had, it's just that he was indeed quite a mess of contradictions.

Another take-away from my recent reading, particularly the rheinsberg write-ups: siblings! So many sibling feelings, so many complex and heartbreaking relationships.

There's an image from the Lehndorff diaries that unexpectedly stuck with me, from the party after the Seven Years War ended (a war during which Fritz lost both his older sister Wilhelmine, the sibling he was closest to by far, and his next-in-line brother August Wilhelm, whom he'd treated quite horribly before his death):

The King remains at the table until 11 1/7. When he rises and the ladies in waiting and I begin to pass him, he suddenly stops at the door, holding Princess Amalie with one hand, Prince Heinrich with the other, and stands like this for nearly fifteen minutes, gazing into their faces.

Yeah.

Lastly, I observe that fix-it scenarios don't seem quite as satisfying in a historical fandom. Pesky reality getting in the way. (Not that I won't read them regardless. There are a lot of things one might be compelled to fix here.)

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[selenak]

Welcome to the salon!

a whole academy of people who are writing under the name of Voltaire

Naturally, my mind went to the Oxfordians, cursed by their name, and other Anti-Stratfordians in Shakespeare scholarship. :) I'd like to see someone pull off a spoof of the snobby Shakespeare authorship debate along the following lines:

- "There was no Voltare! This hint in Fritz' letter is a confession of the truth disguised as a joke."

- No bourgois notary's son could have written and done all that "Voltaire" did. Clearly, what TRULY happened was that SOMEONE hired Francois Arouet as an actor to escape censorship/disguise their activities from their fellow nobles, but who?

- Possible candidates: Émilie for the Newton book, in order to be taken seriously as author, schoolfriend Richelieu for the early drama and the poetry, in order not to piss off the Regent and then the King, but deflect the heat on "Voltaire", and then (the ultimate insult in terms of rl) Fritz for the later drama, historical works and poetry, in order for his works to be regarded impartially; the Voltaire/Fritz fallout from 1750 - 1753 happened because the actor Arouet demanded more and more money; as for the correspondance, clearly, Fritz wrote both sides, hence all the praise.

Nisus and Euryalus: considering I have, alas, not yet read the complete Aeneid but only retellings (and at first the bowlderized one by Gustav Schwab), I had to look them up as well back in the day. But yes, one can see the attraction.

Interest in physics: may be been especially vivid in 1739 because that was when he met Algarotti whose main claim to fame at that point was Newtonian in nature, too.

when was that whole "40 cups of coffee instead of sleep" experiment? earlier probably

As far as I know, it was in 1737 when Suhm had translated Wolff for him into French. But Mildred should have the exect dates.

Another take-away from my recent reading, particularly the rheinsberg write-ups: siblings! So many sibling feelings, so many complex and heartbreaking relationships.

I must admit this gladdens my heart, because the siblings angle was the one I brought to this fandom, while Mildred is the boyfriends expert. (Though she succeeded in getting me interested in the boyfriends as well while I succeeded in getting her interested in the siblings.) And yes, the handholding with Heinrich and Amalie at the end of the post-war party as something that stuck into my mind in particular, too. (The other physical Fritzian gesture re: Heinrich in the 7 Years War years that struck observers, in this case not Lehndorff but Heinrich's AD Henckel von Donnersmarck, was the post- defeat at Kolin meltdown complete with hug, kiss and "I want to die" outburst, where you have Henckel in his diary going "WTF? Did he ever kiss him before? How screwed are we?").

History AU fixits: I know what you mean, and I speak as someone who actually wrote one, though being me, I "fixed" things by killing Fritz himself of. (Well, Mildred did ask for "Katte lives" scenarios. :) ) They're still enjoyable to read, but it's harder to buy completely into them the way you can in a fictional canon whose characters never lived.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

Though she succeeded in getting me interested in the boyfriends as well while I succeeded in getting her interested in the siblings.

This is why I love this fandom!

As far as I know, it was in 1737 when Suhm had translated Wolff for him into French. But Mildred should have the exect dates.

It was in 1736 that Fritz started writing to Suhm, and said he was giving up sleep to study (and Suhm quite understandably said maybe that wasn't the greatest idea?), and I speculated that that was when he tried the experiment, but that's all I've got: speculation.

I appreciate the vote of confidence, though. :) If I had come across exact dates, I would have them and they would be in our chronology!

I speak as someone who actually wrote one, though being me, I "fixed" things by killing Fritz himself of.

As you know, I always refer to this as a "break-it-differently" fic. ;) Don't get me wrong, it was great, and I'm forever grateful that you wrote it because it was the story I never knew I always needed to read, and if I didn't love tragedy, I wouldn't be into this fandom, much less this episode, much less the Brontes, but let's be clear: you broke it differently. :P

Well, Mildred did ask for "Katte lives" scenarios. :)

And I'm glad I did, because there are so many things about that fic I would never give up, but yes. It's very you. ;) (I did something very similar in my last fandom: wrote a fix-it AU where I killed off the main character I was supposedly "fixing", so I definitely can't throw stones.)

it's harder to buy completely into them the way you can in a fictional canon whose characters never lived.

Sometimes I think this is why I have like 10 unfinished AUs--I write and I write, and at the end of the day, I still know it changes nothing.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[cahn]

OKAY THAT DOES IT. I am totally asking for the AU where Émilie is actually the one who wrote everything under the name of "Voltaire," and Francois Arouet is just the witty actor who is the front (since of course no one would take it seriously if they found out it was a WOMAN). And this is why she doesn't want Arouet to go to Prussia, because she is worried they will start an affair and Fritz will find out the truth! (But instead... does he enter into the masquerade instead and write all the letters??)

because the siblings angle was the one I brought to this fandom

And very glad I am for it, too <33333

though being me, I "fixed" things by killing Fritz himself

See, unlike mildred I do think this is a fix-it, because it was just SO cathartic to read Wilhelmine saying "But it is better for you to die than for justice to leave this world" to FW. YES. Stupid reality :P

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[felis]

Thank you!

Interest in physics: may be been especially vivid in 1739 because that was when he met Algarotti whose main claim to fame at that point was Newtonian in nature, too.

Interesting, didn't know that about Algarotti. I think the chronology doesn't quite match up, though, since Algarotti showed up at Rheinsberg in September I think, and the letter is from February. Émilie sent Fritz her work on fire in November 1938, and the whole Émilie/Voltaire/Paris Academy competition was right before that, so I was wondering if that was what got him interested.

The other physical Fritzian gesture re: Heinrich in the 7 Years War years that struck observers, in this case not Lehndorff but Heinrich's AD Henckel von Donnersmarck, was the post- defeat at Kolin meltdown complete with hug, kiss and "I want to die" outburst, where you have Henckel in his diary going "WTF? Did he ever kiss him before? How screwed are we?"

Ohhh, I hadn't heard of that one yet. Damn.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[selenak]

The relevant diary entry from Henckel von Donnersmarck:

dem 19. um 3 Uhr nachmittags. Se. Königl. Hoheit ritten sogleich mit dem Prinzen Ferdinand zu dem Hause in Micheln, welches der König dort vor seinem Abmarsche nach Kolin bewohnt hatte, um ihm darselbst zu erwarten. Welch schmerzliches Schauspiel bot sich unseren Blicken dar, als wir den von Schmerzen und Kummer gebeugt ankommen sahen, der sich noch vor wenigen Tagen für den Eroberer der Welt gehalten hatte. Seit 36 Stunden saß er auf demselben Pferde, und obgleich man deutlich sah, dass er sich vor Ermattung kaum noch barauf erhalten konnte , so zwang er sich doch zu einer guten Haltung. Nachdem er eingetreten war, ließ er den Prinzen Heinrich rufen . Der König lag auf einem mit einem Betttuche belegten Strohsacke, da sein Gepäck noch nicht angekommen war. Er küßte, vielleicht zum ersten Male , seinen Bruder zärtlich, gestand ihm seinen tödtlichen Schmerz und versicherte ihm , daß Alles , was er bis jetzt unternommen habe , nur aus Liebe zu seiner Familie geschehen sei. Er wiederholte zu verschiedenen Malen , daß er zu sterben wünsche und daß er sich das Leben nehmen würde. Der Prinz beschwor ihn , sich zu beruhigen und die ihnen noch bleibenden köstlichen Augenblicke zum Rückzuge zu benutzen , ehe Daun oder Nadaſti Zeit gewönne heranzukommen und ihnen noch mehr Schaden zuzufügen . Der König erwiederte dem Prinzen , daß er jetzt zu Allem unfähig sei und daß er Ruhe bedürfe.
Er beauftragte den Prinzen die nöthigen Dispositionen zu entwerfen , worauf ihm dieser die bereits fertige, welche der König genehmigte, vorwies. Hierauf ersammelte der Prinz die Generalität und theilte ihr die Disposition mit.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[felis]

Oh, wow, that's something indeed. Thank you so much! I continue to be occasionally surprised by how visceral/explicit the primary sources are, especially in contrast to all the hiding and dissembling that's also happening.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

Oh, Henckel *does* say it was the same horse! Wow, that poor horse.

Apropos of that, I must share this recent finding from The Club with cahn:

After six months in Glasgow, Boswell did a daring thing. He absconded from the university and escaped to London, making the entire three-hundred-mile journey on horseback. Along the way he rode from Carlisle to London in two days and a half, an impressive feat. When he recounted this to some accomplished horsemen they cried out, “What, sir, upon the same horse?” “No, gentlemen,” he replied, “that would be no merit of mine. But I’ll tell you what is better: it was upon the same bum.”

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

(not least because of the geekiness content to be honest)

See, this is one of the things I love about Fritz and his pen pals (Wilhelmine included): they're such geeks! <3

[sidenote: when was that whole "40 cups of coffee instead of sleep" experiment? earlier probably]

Well, this is an interesting question, and you'd think I'd have the precise dates, but what I have instead is this: I've never found an non-anecdotal source for this claim, never mind one that gives dates! I'm starting to wonder if it's one of those things everyone "knows" about Fritz that ends up being apocryphal--there were a lot of anonymous and unsourced anecdotes published immediately after his death.

But I keep hoping we'll turn it up, because it's one of my absolute favorite things about him, and quite possibly saved me from a similar experiment! (In that I tend toward arrogance, and when I was a teenager, I was of the mind that just because other people couldn't do something didn't mean *I* couldn't--but if Frederick the Great, noted workaholic and study-holic whom I respected, couldn't do without sleep despite his best efforts meant that I probably should assume that applied limitation to me as well. As much as I hate sleeping and like working and studying, I have to concede that the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak.)

a) physics experiments with a vacuum pump [although only the first - does a clock keep its pace in a vacuum? - is actually physics in hindsight, the second - does a plant seed grow without air? - is not]

Still geeky! <3

which concludes with the request to work less for the sake of his health (the exact thing Fritz isn't doing and complained about at the start of the letter; very much in character).

Fritz: other people's limitations don't apply to me! (One more reason I related hard to Fritz.)

Voltaire in his February 28th response says that Fritz should take his own health advice, and that perhaps Nisus/Euryalus fic is more suitable during a time of recovery than maths. (Which I can only agree with.)

My fave Émilie would disagree, though. ;) Though I agree it's probably true for Fritz, since that was not really his thing.

still pre-meeting and pre-ascension to the throne, there are a lot of things not present in this letter - the sharp sarcasm for example (which could be very witty, or mocking and hurtful, or both), or the often imperious and short-tempered attitude of King Frederick.

Yeah, he doesn't start lashing at Voltaire quite yet, though having just finished Uwe Oster's Wilhelmine bio tells me that at least one person who wasn't Prince Eugene saw future Fritz coming: Doctor Superville.

In his 1739 words, [Fritz has] much wit/spirit/intelligence, but a bad heart and a terrible character. He's suspicious, stubborn, excessive, selfish, ungrateful, vicious, and unless I'm very much mistaken, will someday be even stingier than his father.

One minute I'm laughing out loud because a quote is hilarious or daring or WTF, the next I just can't help being touched or impressed, and the next it's "damn it, you asshole".

If Fritz were consistent, he wouldn't hold my interest nearly as thoroughly.

I certainly see why "enigma" or "contradictory" are terms often used about Frederick

ZOMG yes. cahn and selenak can tell you I say this all the time; searching our chat history, I found no fewer than three examples, such as this one.

although I think the first one gives the wrong impression of only getting an incomprehensible facade...I still think there's a lot of insight to be had, it's just that he was indeed quite a mess of contradictions.

But what I apparently haven't shared is my rant that says exactly this! One of the fictional characters I keep in my head was ranting that obviously Asprey never knew anyone like Fritz, and if you have the word "polutropos" in your vocabulary like the ancient Greeks did, you don't need the word "enigma".

I did point out in salon that at least one translator of the Odyssey has translated the first line as "Tell me about a complicated man," and that I thought that was very suitable for Fritz and our salon. :)

siblings! So many sibling feelings, so many complex and heartbreaking relationships.

This is all thanks to our wonderful selenak! I owe her a great debt for teaching me all about Hohenzollern dysfunction and complexities: it's fascinating, but I wouldn't have done all that research on my own (not least because it's largely in German, and I only started studying German this year, entirely because selenak shared German scholarship with us, and I realized I need to read a bunch of it. I'm currently working my way slowly through a long reading list and picking up speed and proficiency as I go. :))

As she noted, she is the queen of siblings in this fandom, and I am the boyfriend expert. :D

Lastly, I observe that fix-it scenarios don't seem quite as satisfying in a historical fandom. Pesky reality getting in the way.

OMG, I have the same reaction! I don't know if I shared my feelings here, but I definitely once said to my wife last year that I can write fix-it fic all day long, and unlike in, say, Hunger Games, where my AU has equal ontological status with canon in my head, at the end of the day, Katte still died on November 6 and Fritz still suffered and made other people suffer. :/

I haven't actually finished, much less posted, my fix-it fics, but there's one I'm still actively working on and have hopes for.

You left out one of your comments from your blog that I wanted to comment on because I had the same reaction!

[Re: health problems, Frederick had a whole litany of them, and I'm seriously impressed that with his workaholic lifestyle of little sleep, tons of snuff and coffee with pepper and mustard, combined with 18th century medicine, he still reached the age of 74. My theory: all the fresh fruit he consumed and grew in Sanssouci, which was a really consistent thing for him. He even sent a pineapple half-way through Europe as a gift to his sister.]

I said that here and here! I even said "litany"!

selenak: On the endearing side: early in the travel correspondance, Fritz sends a pineapple to Wilhelmine from Potsdam. Bear in mind that pineapples otherwise don't exist in Germany at this point, by and large; Fritz had some of the earliest grown for him in garden house, it was a rare and precious thing.

mildred_of_midgard: Fritz totally loved fruit and went to no small expense to get a lot of fresh fruit grown locally for his table, which now that I think of it, may partly account for how he survived his litany of health problems plus 18th century medicine for 74 years, lol. Good to know he shared some of his bounty with Wilhelmine!

So clearly, you are me and I am you. :) Welcome!

Oh, if you want a detailed and organized intro to our salon, I wrote one last month for another recent recruit (who, unlike you, was new even to DW), here.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[felis]

I'm starting to wonder if it's one of those things everyone "knows" about Fritz that ends up being apocryphal

It's certainly something that would make sense as an exaggerated story that has a lot of truth in it - in this case his general attitude towards work/study and his coffee drinking (and his general personality) - but might not have happened exactly the way it's told through the grapevine. On the other hand, it's Fritz, so who knows. Might as well be true to the letter.

re: Doctor Superville [what a name] - didn't Valory say some similar things that early? I seem to remember coming across that. (And Voltaire kind of jokes about the mutual dislike between him and Fritz in one of the letters I read yesterday.)

if you have the word "polutropos" in your vocabulary like the ancient Greeks did, you don't need the word "enigma"

Had to google that (never got past two weeks of Greek), but now I really like it! Also from a meta standpoint, multiple narratives possible.

Heh, I left out the health/fruit part because I assumed that everyone here knew it anyway, given that I learned most of it from rheinsberg in the first place. And thank you for the link to the intro post - I see that your "Fritz as Royal Detective" from a few days ago had a double layer there, ha.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

It's certainly something that would make sense as an exaggerated story that has a lot of truth in it...On the other hand, it's Fritz, so who knows. Might as well be true to the letter.

Exactly! It's in character, at least.

re: Doctor Superville [what a name] - didn't Valory say some similar things that early? I seem to remember coming across that.

Did he? The famous quotes I'm familiar with from him on Fritz are from 1753. But maybe there are pre-May 31, 1740 ones too.

Doctor Superville [what a name]

I had the same reaction, lol. It keeps calling up Smallville + Superman echoes in my brain, which, to be fair, would not have been the case for contemporaries. :P

Also from a meta standpoint, multiple narratives possible.

Exactly! It applies to Fritz in several different meanings the same way it applies to Odysseus in several different meanings.

Heh, I left out the health/fruit part because I assumed that everyone here knew it anyway, given that I learned most of it from [community profile] rheinsberg in the first place.

The facts, yes, but the hypothesis that it contributed to his longevity is something you and I came up with independently, which is awesome!

I see that your "Fritz as Royal Detective" from a few days ago had a double layer there, ha.

:) Yes, indeed, that was an inside joke aimed at the people who'd been calling me Royal Detective for a year now. And now you're inside the joke too.

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[felis]

Hmmm, maybe I did misremember the Valory thing. Fritz told Voltaire that he didn't like him the minute he showed up and then Voltaire made a joke about the way Valory saw Fritz, so it's entirely possible that I put the wrong date on the Valory quotes in my head. (It's been a looot of new information in a very short time lately. :D)

re: Superville, I immediately saw him as a comics supervillain with a very on-the-nose name ;)

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[cahn]

Hiiiiii! :DD So lovely to virtual-meet you! :D As you can see from rheinsberg, I don't do the research like these powerhouses, but I am always very happy to cheer everyone on :D And Fritz-Voltaire! selenak sold me on Voltaire so I am excited to find out more about him and about their correspondence :D (mildred_of_midgard will probably drag me into reading their correspondence at some point -- I also by far am the slowest reader of these three (or at least I have the least time to read, which works out the same) -- but it will be quite a while from now.)

his doctors, more cruel than the disease itself

LOL!

although only the first - does a clock keep its pace in a vacuum? - is actually physics in hindsight, the second - does a plant seed grow without air? - is not

*nods* Did they have the same division of physics that we have now? I had the vague impression they kind of shoved everything science-related under "natural philosophy" and called it a day.

I admit that I had to look them up because I was unaware of the story.

Heh, I did read the Aeneid and I had no idea who they were! (Though it was a while ago now.)

Voltaire in his February 28th response says that Fritz should take his own health advice, and that perhaps Nisus/Euryalus fic is more suitable during a time of recovery than maths. (Which I can only agree with.)

Heeeee. Of course Fritz should :P But also I think this is hilarious because it really shows Voltaire is just so not a scientist/mathematician, despite feeling like he ought to be one because all smart people are, and Obviously He Is Smart. (This is, at least, what I came away with from the Émilie bio I read. But I suppose also can be inferred from Émilie's letter :D )

Part of what makes reading about all of this so interesting are the constant shifts: One minute I'm laughing out loud because a quote is hilarious or daring or WTF, the next I just can't help being touched or impressed, and the next it's "damn it, you asshole".

I KNOWWWWWW. I feel like when these guys tell me stories, I spend 1/3 of the time feeling sorry for him, 1/3 of the time impressed by him, and the rest of the time shaking my head and going, "Oh Fritz." (And not in a good way.)

Another take-away from my recent reading, particularly the [community profile] rheinsberg write-ups: siblings! So many sibling feelings, so many complex and heartbreaking relationships.

yessssss like everyone else is saying, all hail selenak and getting us all into the siblings! <3333333 Honestly this is when I started to get really emotionally involved -- I was having fun before, but the dysfunctional and complicated sibling dynamics really sold the whole thing to me. (Who is requesting Fritz siblings for Yuletide? This girl! Well, and also selenak :D )

The King remains at the table until 11 1/7. When he rises and the ladies in waiting and I begin to pass him, he suddenly stops at the door, holding Princess Amalie with one hand, Prince Heinrich with the other, and stands like this for nearly fifteen minutes, gazing into their faces.

..Yeah.

Lastly, I observe that fix-it scenarios don't seem quite as satisfying in a historical fandom. Pesky reality getting in the way.

Absolutely agree. As mildred said, one can say to oneself in a fiction fandom that the fix-it is the thing that really happened. But... one can't really say that with reality :( (Still, though. There is some satisfaction in reading about things the way they ought to have happened like Wilhelmine saying to FW "But it is better for you to die than for justice to leave this world.")

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[felis]

Hi, nice to meet you! :) I've learned so many things about Frederick et al these last few weeks and it's been quite a ride so far.

Did they have the same division of physics that we have now? I had the vague impression they kind of shoved everything science-related under "natural philosophy" and called it a day.

Yeah, as far as I know, they didn't have the clear science divisions yet, neither between natural sciences and philosophy as an umbrella term nor between the different natural sciences as we understand them today, that's why I added the hindsight comment. Although I think the 18th century was when that very slowly started to change - they do use the term physics and are employing scientific methods instead of placing the weight on the philosophy part of natural philosophy, even though it's still kind of seen as part of it (and taught that way at universities). Probably one reason why Voltaire's dabbling in it, too. Biology as a term doesn't exist yet, but chemistry as derived from alchemy is kind of around. (Although as Fredersdorf clearly shows, alchemy itself is still a thing as well.)

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

(Although as Fredersdorf clearly shows, alchemy itself is still a thing as well.)

So I was reading Oster's Wilhelmine bio, and I found this quote from a Fritz letter:

Fritz on October 19, 1732: If I could make gold, I would first use my knowledge to help out Wilhelmine.

To which I commented, "If you could make gold, huh? I wonder if Fritz talked about making gold before 1732, or if we're seeing traces of Fredersdorf here."

Do you know of any Fritzian references to alchemy before 1732? Or is this a sign that Fredersdorf was maybe talking about alchemy with Fritz from the beginning? (I mean, there could be many reasons this was on Fritz's mind, but I do find it curious that it's within a year after he met Fredersdorf.)

Re: Early Fritz letter to Voltaire / Random Thoughts

[mildred_of_midgard]

Heh, I did read the Aeneid and I had no idea who they were! (Though it was a while ago now.)

I had a semester in college on the Aeneid, in which I read it in its entirety in English and about a third of it in Latin...twenty years ago. So I too had to look up Nisus and Euryalus last year. ;)

There is some satisfaction in reading about things the way they ought to have happened like Wilhelmine saying to FW "But it is better for you to die than for justice to leave this world."

And for that as well as FW's stroke I am forever indebted to our wonderful author! Seriously, I sat up straight when I read that and started yelling out loud. I still call it differently broken, though. ;)

yessssss like everyone else is saying, all hail [personal profile] selenak and getting us all into the siblings! <3333333 Honestly this is when I started to get really emotionally involved -- I was having fun before, but the dysfunctional and complicated sibling dynamics really sold the whole thing to me.

I'm still trying to figure out why I'm not more emotionally invested in them. Intellectually, they're very interesting, but for some reason, my feels haven't latched on. I wondered if it might be that I prefer functional to dysfunctional sibling relationships? But then I remembered exceptions, and so idek. I definitely wouldn't want to do without the glorious Hohenzollern dynamics in this fandom, regardless. I have to say that when selenak started fleshing out the whole family for me, that's when Fritz and company started to feel like three-dimensional people with an actual context.

I KNOWWWWWW. I feel like when these guys tell me stories, I spend 1/3 of the time feeling sorry for him, 1/3 of the time impressed by him, and the rest of the time shaking my head and going, "Oh Fritz." (And not in a good way.)

That sounds about right. Though in my case, I have to admit "Oh, Fritz" is said with a lot of sympathy. Like, "Oh, Fritz, you put the 'problematic' in 'problematic fave'," or, "Oh, Fritz, I'm sorry everything was so terrible. Please get therapy." But maybe that's just because I'm a Fritz stan of old. ;)

Fritz-adjacent dynamics

[cahn]

IDK, I wonder if it's because you are so attached to Fritz? Like, part of the reason the dysfunctional sibling dynamics really grab me is that I'm really not particularly attached to Fritz, so the fact that a lot of these dynamics involve him behaving badly is a plus for me rather than a minus, and Heinrich (whom I do love) gets a bit of the woobie dynamic. Whereas it's probably not nearly as emotionally interesting to have one's fave being the one behaving awfully. (For similar reasons, I'm not really all that emotionally invested in the wives... at least not yet. Except possibly for Louise, because of that letter of Amalie's. But even so, my short-term attachment to Heinrich isn't at all to be compared to your long-term attachment to Fritz, so I think it would be very possible; selenak's fic got me invested in Voltaire, after all, which I didn't think was possible given my attachment to Emilie :P )

Reading more Fritz/Voltaire letters (1740-42)

[felis]

The whole period of FW's impending death and Fritz becoming king was really interesting to read - the mixed feelings and anxiety from Fritz re: having to leave his Rheinsberg paradise, vs. a lot of hope and encouragement from Voltaire, and then indeed the difference in Fritz' attitude once he's king (you'll see no other change in me than greater determination/efficency is what he says in February :D which ... isn't entirely wrong?). It also got across the absurdity of one man suddenly becoming an absolutist monarch I thought.

So Fritz repeatedly voices thoughts like these, which are from his first letter on the topic, February 26th: Happy if I had lived without being transplanted/ From this mild and peaceful climate/ Where my freedom flourished/ Into this scabrous, rugged, difficult terrain,/ Infected by Machiavellianism!
And then from March 23rd: When I can neither read nor work, I am like those great tobacco takers who die of anxiety, and who put their hands in their pockets a thousand times, when their snuffbox has been taken away. The decoration of the building can change, without altering in any way the foundations or the walls; this is what you will see in me, because my father's situation leaves us no hope of recovery. So I must prepare to undergo my destiny.
Privacy would be better suited to my freedom [...]. You know that I like independence, and that it is very hard to give it up in order to submit to a painful duty.

Voltaire in return writes the "I dream of my prince like one dreams of a mistress" line in one of his later replies, and I thought his very first one to the February letter was actually quite touching, from I don't know the exact state of your current circumstances, but I've never loved and admired you more to king or prince, you are always my king. I mean, I'd read about a hundred pages of Voltaire complimenting Fritz by that point and these still stood out.

(Also, in between, May 3rd, Fritz tried to put a ring on it?! ;) - May my ring, my dear Voltaire, never leave your finger. This talisman is filled with so many wishes for your person, that it must of necessity bring you happiness)

Oh, and I thought the King vs. Human Fritz thing being introduced was interesting as a symptom of the transition and the relationship, started by Fritz telling Voltaire that he should keep treating him like a normal human being, not a king (later: Voltaire in Berlin -> Fritz: "that's totally not how I meant that"), upon which Voltaire starts alternating between calling him Your Majesty and Your Humanity for a while and keeps bringing up that differentiation in various contexts (including the one where he asks Fritz the human being about his father's attitude towards him before his death, which Fritz doesn't really answer, as selenak pointed out in her write-up).

And then, November/December 1740, Voltaire in Berlin:

Voltaire:
Non, malgré vos vertus, non, malgré vos appas,
Mon âme n'est point satisfaite;
Non, vous n'êtes qu'une coquette
Qui subjuguez les cœurs, et ne vous donnez pas.

[Fritz demanding hearts but not giving his own! I have thoughts on that.]

Fritz:
Réponse à l'épigramme de ce matin:
Mon âme sent le prix de vos divins appas;
Mais ne présumez point qu'elle soit satisfaite.
Traître, vous me quittez pour suivre une coquette;
Moi, je ne vous quitterais pas.

[Says he, who would have done a "gotta go conquer Silesia, BRB" two weeks later.]

Me: Well, that didn't take long. Guys, you haven't even spent two weeks in each other's company, calm down?

Voltaire:
Je vous quitte, il est vrai; mais mon cœur déchiré
Vers vous revolera sans cesse.
Depuis quatre ans vous êtes ma maîtresse,
Un amour de dix ans doit être préféré;
Je remplis un devoir sacré.
Héros de l'amitié, vous m'approuvez vous-même;
Adieu, je pars désespéré.
Oui, je vais aux genoux d'un objet adoré,
Mais j'abandonne ce que j'aime.

Me: Okay then. There's not even a "like a" before mistress anymore now, I see how it is. (But yeah, Émilie, and Voltaire's feelings for her/her claim on him really are the continuous and strong point of contention.)

Also, editor's note on a Voltaire letter from July: "For four years they've wanted to embrace one another, for four years Voltaire has been hesitating to slip into the Prussian beau's heavenly bed. Does he know that sometimes love becomes difficult once one sees each other and grasps each other's hands daily?"

Me: Okay then, Pleschinski! Nobody forced you to phrase it that way I guess. [Yes, okay, he means canopy bed, I just translated too literally. But still.]

--

Other than their relationship troubles, I was very entertained by Voltaire's travel adventures, be it his descriptions of staying at a Prussian residence (?) in Den Haag - There are also books that only rats have read for fifty years, and which are covered with the largest cobwebs in Europe, lest ignorant people approach them. - or his reaction when, on the way to Berlin in November, his carriage breaks down in the middle of nowhere:

A servant goes to one side to ask for help from Westphalians who believe they are being asked to drink; another runs around without knowing where to. Du Molard however, who promises to describe our trip in Arabic and Syrian, is resourceful as if he were not a scholar. He goes to explore, half on foot, half in a cart, and I ride, in velvet breeches, silk stockings and slippers, on a restive horse. [...] On arriving at Herford in this state, the guard asked me my name; I replied, of course, that my name was Don Quixote, and I enter under this name.

And then, once again stuck in the middle of nowhere on his way back, he writes a lot of verses dissing Westphalia, praising Berlin, and then brings Algarotti into the conversation as a virtual third person to adress, just to start dissing Italy. (Quite lewdly, too, not least by using the accusation of sodomy as an insult - against the Venetians in this case - so that's certainly one more data point for his consistency in that regard, what with using it against Fritz later.)

--

Then it's wartime and there are two letters from 1742 that Pleschinski didn't include (possibly too much relationship back and forth) but which I found rather ... illuminating:

Voltaire (May 26th):
[...] I don't like heroes much, they make too much noise;
I hate these conquerors, proud enemies of themselves,
Who in the horrors of fighting
Have placed supreme happiness,
Seeking death everywhere and making suffer
A hundred thousand men, their fellows.
The more their glory shines, the more hateful they are.
O heaven! that I must hate you!
I love you though, despite all this carnage
With which you soiled the fields of our Germans,
Despite all these warriors that your valiant hands
Pass to the dark shore.
You are a hero, but you are a sage;
Your reason curses inhuman exploits
Where you forced your courage;
In the middle of the cannons, on the dead piled up,
Facing death, and focussing victory,
The blood of the unfortunates cementing your glory,
I forgive you everything, if you moan.

I think of humanity, Sire, before thinking of you; but after having, as Abbe de Saint-Pierre, wept over the human race whose terror you become, I give myself up to all the joy that your glory gives me. This glory will be complete if V. M. forces the Queen of Hungary to receive peace, and the Germans to be happy. You are the hero of Germany and the arbiter of Europe; you will be the peacemaker, and our opera prologues will only be for you.
[...] V. M. has not so far deigned to inform the world of the details of this day; you had, I believe, something else to do than relationships; but your modesty is betrayed by a few eyewitnesses, who all say that one owes the victory of the battle only to the excess of courage and prudence that you have shown. They add that my hero is always sensitive, and that the same man who has so many people killed is at the bedside of M. de Rottembourg. This is what you do not say, and which you could nevertheless confess, as things which are all natural to you. [...]

Fritz responds (June 18th):
I hope that, after making my peace with the enemies, I can in turn make it with you. I ask for the Century of Louis XIV to seal it on your part, and I send you the report that I made myself of the last battle, as you ask me.
Rottembourg's health begins to recover; it is entirely out of danger. Do not believe me cruel, but reasonable enough to choose an evil only when it is necessary to avoid a worse one. Any man who decides to have a tooth pulled out, when it is decayed, will fight when he wants to end a war. To spill blood under such circumstances is really to spare it; it is a bleeding given to a delirious enemy, and which gives him back his common sense.

... and then Voltaire writes his ode to MT, so more bickering.

Also: more Émilie bickering, because Fritz is still jealous. At first, the specifics confused me a bit - Fritz insinuates sex, Voltaire gets all huffy - but then I found the following in cahn's Émilie write-up:

Voltaire: I am too old for sexual relationships, being 47 and all, "the twilight of my days." [He lived to be 83.] Nay, I only want pure love unsullied by physical considerations.
Émilie: I'm not really happy about this, but I love you, so, okay.
D, who happens to be walking by at the moment: He means he doesn't want sex with her, huh?
Voltaire: *has affair with niece*
Émilie: ????
Voltaire: Uh, yeah, D was right. I meant I didn't want sex with you. Um. Open relationship?

Which I guess explains it. I certainly raised a very skeptical eyebrow when I read Voltaire's "I'm so old, I don't have sex anymore, my relationship with Émilie is all virtuous" claim. As did Fritz. Voltaire meanwhile is apparently still insulted that Fritz invited Gresset to Berlin and tells him "why don't you write to young and virile Gresset about his sex life instead (but of course, the guy wasn't man enough to follow your invitation now, was he) ... jealous, who, me? what?". Me: amused.

Re: Reading more Fritz/Voltaire letters (1740-42)

[selenak]

Me: Well, that didn't take long. Guys, you haven't even spent two weeks in each other's company, calm down?

Not to mention that in between writing these love messages, Fritz kept bitching about Voltaire wanting him to pay his travel expenses and wrote that icy "no court fool was ever so expensive" line to one of his other correspondants, which is Fritz at his most Son-of-FW-like.

And yes, Pleschinski ships them. I spend a couple of days with him last year in a workshop, and he says they totally deserved each other. Mind you, Orieux - who doesn't ship them, because he'd rather have Voltaire had that kind of relationship with French monarch - uses romantic language as well, what with describing Fritz' plan to make Voltaire having to flee France by faking a poem and leaking letters and concluding "then he'd be forced to fall in the arms, or rather paws of his royal admirer".

Incidentally, if you have Audible, there's a one hour special on Fritz and Voltaire Radio Bandenburg did using Pleschinski's edition as the text source (Christian Brückner speaks Voltaire). This is also Pleschinski approved, as opposed to the Walter Jens-Loriot version, about which he has issues.

At first, the specifics confused me a bit - Fritz insinuates sex, Voltaire gets all huffy

In addition to what was going on re: Émilie and Madame Denis, there's another factor to consider here, because the way it came across to me, Fritz was insinuating sex with Émilie was the main reason why Voltaire remained with her instead of moving to Prussia to be with Fritz. Hence Voltaire's reaction.

As you might recall from our various write-ups, Fritz still gossips about Émilie's sex life yeas after her death, and after his breakup with Voltaire, in the middle of the 7 Years War, with the Marquis d'Argens. (When he insists that surely, Émilie/Maupertuis was at the source of Voltaire's turning against Maupertuis.) And of course there's the letter after his first meeting with Voltaire where he's confident he'll woo Voltaire away from her because "my purse is more filled than the Marquise's". (Which shows you how little Fritz knew about who contributed what to the Émilie and Voltaire household; while Voltaire had benefited from Émilie and her husband giving him shelter back when he would have been arrested for a third time, he'd put actually more money into Cirey than the du Chatelets did. That he wanted Fritz to pay his travel expenses was another issue - he had the not unfounded opinion a King could afford this. But Voltaire was that rarity, a wealthy writer, and he had taken care to be not dependent on any single patron for this.)

Anyway, my point here is, Fritz attempting to explain Voltaire/Émilie by sex or money or both shows a frustrated jealous rival.

Re: Reading more Fritz/Voltaire letters (1740-42)

[felis]

(Oh, hey, Christian Brückner! Loved his Sayers' audiobooks back in the day.)

because the way it came across to me, Fritz was insinuating sex with Émilie was the main reason why Voltaire remained with her instead of moving to Prussia to be with Fritz. Hence Voltaire's reaction.

Oh, absolutely, I got that vibe from Fritz as well, and so initially, Voltaire's reaction seemed to make some sense, except then he went all "no sex with Émilie at all, how dare you, and anyway, I'm too old for that now" which made me call BS and so I went and checked the records, i.e. rheinsberg. :D

Re: Reading more Fritz/Voltaire letters (1740-42)

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thank you for all the wonderful quotes!

I mean, I'd read about a hundred pages of Voltaire complimenting Fritz by that point and these still stood out.

I actually laughed out loud. ETA: Okay, I just read it again while previewing my comment, and I laughed aloud again. :D

I replied, of course, that my name was Don Quixote, and I enter under this name.

I had run across this anecdote, but had forgotten. Lol!

Algarotti into the conversation as a virtual third person to adress, just to start dissing Italy. (Quite lewdly, too, not least by using the accusation of sodomy as an insult - against the Venetians in this case - so that's certainly one more data point for his consistency in that regard, what with using it against Fritz later.)

Mind sharing the exact quote? I mean, on the one hand, nobody disses Italy more than Algarotti in the 1730s, but considering that Algarotti is a Venetian *and* Voltaire writes a pornographic slash poem to Fritz about Algarotti and the French envoy's secretary Lugeac, comparing them to Socrates and Alcibiades, it's interesting that he breaks it out as an insult on this occasion. This is in 1740, right? The slash porn is from December 1740.

Me: Okay then, Pleschinski! Nobody forced you to phrase it that way I guess. [Yes, okay, he means canopy bed, I just translated too literally. But still.]

As selenak points out, it's not accidental! He's come out as a Fritz/Voltaire shipper!

Re: Reading more Fritz/Voltaire letters (1740-42)

[felis]

This is in 1740, right? The slash porn is from December 1740.

The letter is from December 6th, so I guess he was on a roll? Or did he sent the poem at the same time? It's all in verse, the original French starts here (quote on the next page) and a rough translation of the relevant passage would be:

[Berlin]
Make[s] you forget the fate
of Italy and France.
Of Italy! Algarotti,
How do you find this language?
I see you, struck with outrage,
Look at me as an enemy.
Moderate this boiling courage,
And respond to us as a friend.
[... insults: smelly lagoons, whores, a useless doge, etc]
A soft, weak, infatuated people
Of ignorance and deceit,
Buttocks often chipped[/tattered],
Due to the efforts of the old sin
Which is called sodomy:
Voilá, the sketched portrait
Of the very noble lordship.
Now is this worth, please,
Our adorable Frédéric,
His virtues, his tastes, his homeland?
I make the whole public judge.

Re: Reading more Fritz/Voltaire letters (1740-42)

[cahn]

This is so great!

(Also, in between, May 3rd, Fritz tried to put a ring on it?! ;) - May my ring, my dear Voltaire, never leave your finger. This talisman is filled with so many wishes for your person, that it must of necessity bring you happiness)

heeee! This is amazing.

Depuis quatre ans vous êtes ma maîtresse,...
Me: Okay then. There's not even a "like a" before mistress anymore now, I see how it is.

AHAHAHA. I love this. These guys!

Me: Okay then, Pleschinski! Nobody forced you to phrase it that way I guess.

I am delighted by Pleschinski shipping them :D

Sanssouci

[mildred_of_midgard]

I admit that I had to look them up because I was unaware of the story.

I forgot to mention, when I did my write-up of Sanssouci, I covered the Temple of Friendship and did a brief overview of the mythological couples depicted there, because even I, semi-Classicist, had forgotten one of the four, and figured there might be other people who could use an intro to the others. Just FYI!

Also, next time I'm at Sanssouci, I'm so using this page plus Selena's write-up as my cheat-sheet. I missed so many things when I was there!

Oh, speaking of which, I recently read in Wilhelmine's memoirs that her father had set up the Marly Gardens (which are now part of the Sanssouci park), and she has no idea why he named them "Marly". To which I thought, she could use this cheat sheet too! If Wikipedia is to be trusted, he named them ironically after Louis XIV's Marly-le-Roi palace. (Ironic because Louis and FW had kind of opposite opinions on conspicuous consumption.)

Re: Sanssouci

[felis]

Heh, I remembered that they were in the Temple and so I did indeed check out your write-up first before I went to wiki for more info. :D

I didn't know that about the Marly Gardens! They've always been connected to the Friedenskirche in my head, which was built much later, so I just assumed the name happened at the same time. (I also just realized that I've had it wrong all this time: it's Marly, self, not Maryl.)
Naming things after Louis XIV stuff seems more like a FI thing to do - maybe FW was making a statement against both FI and Louis by naming a kitchen garden of all things after Marly?

I missed so many things when I was there!

Tell me about it! I actually unearthed my pictures from ten years ago today, and I discovered that apparently, I was mostly interested in taking pretty landscape pictures of the grounds and artsy detail shots and not so much in photographing stuff that might be useful to me right now. Quite the lack of foresight. :P