Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 19

[cahn]

Yuletide nominations:

18th Century CE Federician RPF
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria
Voltaire
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great
Ernst Ahasverus von Lehndorff
Friedrich Heinrich Ludwig von Preußen | Henry of Prussia (1726-1802)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758)
Anna Amalie von Preußen | Anna Amalia of Prussia (1723-1787)
Catherine II of Russia
Hans Hermann von Katte
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf
August Wilhelm von Preußen | Augustus William of Prussia (1722-1758)

Circle of Voltaire RPF
Emilie du Chatelet
Jeanne Antoinette Poisson (Madame de Pompadour)
John Hervey (1696-1743)
Marie Louise Mignot Denis
Lady Mary Wortley-Montagu
Pierre Louis Moreau de Maupertuis
Armand de Vignerot du Plessis de Richelieu (1696-1788)
Francesco Algarotti

Comments

The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[prinzsorgenfrei]

Hi! Just jumping in really quick to say that I have reached the height of weirdness and finished my pop art style painting of Katte (what am i doing with my life).

There's a picture here.
Acrylic paint is definitely not my new favourite medium, I would even dare to say that I hate it and it's mutual, but the result could have been worse :'D My grandma likes it, that's a start.

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[mildred_of_midgard]

This is great! Thanks so much for sharing. Your grandma's right, and your new apartment is going to look amaaaazing with this kind of decor. :D

Also, it's awesome having an artist in the fandom now! And I love your blog name and the blurb on the side, I laughed so hard (in a tragic way, of course).

Hilariously, the original Katte painting is the one that selenak found was made posthumously, commissioned by Katte's father after the execution, and painted by one of Hans Hermann's classmates from Halle. Little did either of them know that in 2020, a newfangled pop version would come into existence!

Finally, awwww, I love the bottom picture of the Fritz and Katte portraits side-by-side, and how you made them matching. Together at last. <3

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[prinzsorgenfrei]

Aaah, thank you! :D I am having a lot of fun with historical-ish art, so I might make some more! Half of my current sketchbook is full of powdered wigs and memes, I have to use that chaotic creative energy somewhere.

Oh, that's really interesting! I read somewhere (probably Katte Ordre und Kriegsartikel, i remember there being a footnote about Katte portraits) that the picture was finished after his death, but that it was started after his death too is an interesting new fact :D And that it was made by another Francke-Alumnus is pretty cool! I mainly chose this one because it's the only one i know that is in colour (apart from the one with his sister) and that made mapping out the colour sections a lot easier. Of course the most important thing is getting The Eyebrows™ right since that appears to be what really stood out about him to other people :'D

Katte portraits

[mildred_of_midgard]

Half of my current sketchbook is full of powdered wigs and memes, I have to use that chaotic creative energy somewhere.

Hee! Sounds like a great plan.

i remember there being a footnote about Katte portraits) that the picture was finished after his death, but that it was started after his death too is an interesting new fact

Okay, I dug around! The portrait itself was started when he was alive and possibly finished after the execution, but it looks like there's a later note saying that it was enlarged from an original half-length to one that extended to the knee after the execution, "in order to make the depiction of the beheaded man more representative."

So it looks like at least some commissioning was done after the death. The reason we care is that we're trying to find evidence for how Hans Heinrich felt about his son's death, since FW fans keep saying he was on board with the upgraded sentence and felt it was just. We're finding increasing evidence that while he probably didn't approve of the desertion plan and would have considered some punishment just, the death sentence really upset him and he did honor his son's memory.

This book is on my to-read list, btw, as soon as my German is good enough! I mean, it's reasonably close now, it would just be very slow, and I've got a few items ahead of it to practice on before I get to it, at which point hopefully I'll be reading faster.

Of course the most important thing is getting The Eyebrows™ right since that appears to be what really stood out about him to other people :'D

Right? :P

Which reminds me, there's this painting, which as you can see Wikipedia thinks is of Henri de Catt, but it's pretty clearly the same painting that the Wust local historians have posted a head shot of in the crypt and are claiming is of Hans Hermann von Katte!

On the one hand, I would like to trust the Wust historians over Wikipedia. On the other,
- Fine eyebrows.
- Chin very oval compared to other Katte portraits.
- Does not seem to be mentioned in Kloosterhuis?

Admittedly the first two aren't definitive, and regarding the third, admittedly my German is not great, and admittedly Kloosterhuis makes mistakes (some of which I've caught, despite only having used this book as a reference and not yet having read it), but still. I trust him more than Wikipedia *or* Wust.

I'm inclined toward Catt, but would welcome more evidence in either direction.

Re: Katte portraits

[prinzsorgenfrei]

I just checked Kloosterhuis as well and now I feel like I should attempt to find the old photos of the other Katte portraits... I recognize one of them (apart from The Yellow One and The One With His Sister) and it would be interesting to compare all of them, face wise.

Oh, I remember the de Catt portrait! My friend and I noticed it in Wust and thought it was a bit stange. I know that it's been printed and dubbed a portrait of Katte in at least one Fritz biography, but I do agree that it's probably not him.
I found a high resolution coloured version here and the museum it's in dates it to around 1763 and assumes it's de Catt. Zoomed in, the face is also just... very different from other depictions (and descriptions) of Katte.

I'm not sure where the people in Wust got that particular picture since it's not in the brochure that I bought there, but they did make some mistakes with pictures in there too (mainly mixing up some of the Menzel sketches from the illustrated biography), so they might just have stumbled upon some weird sources for pictures they use.

Re: Katte portraits

[mildred_of_midgard]

Zoomed in, the face is also just... very different from other depictions (and descriptions) of Katte.

I agree. These aren't photographs, granted, but the others that I've seen all look at least vaguely alike, and this is an outlier (and should not be counted? :P).

The one with his sister, for instance.

Three portraits in Fontane.

One that supposedly dates to 1726, according to the person who posted it. I would need to check this one, but I've seen the black-and-white a number of times attributed to Katte, at least.

dubbed a portrait of Katte in at least one Fritz biography

Now that you remind me, I think I saw it in Asprey, if memory serves.

I'm not sure where the people in Wust got that particular picture since it's not in the brochure that I bought there, but they did make some mistakes with pictures in there too

Oooh, interesting. Next time one of us is in Wust, we should bring this up with them!

I find it interesting that the names are so similar, and Katte used to be spelled Katt or even Catt--I wonder if someone misinterpreted it and two separate traditions started.

Re: Katte portraits

[prinzsorgenfrei]

One that supposedly dates to 1726

That one would fit one of Kloosterhuis' descriptions (Wuster Porträt I), so I'm inclined to believe the post. He lists Katte's rank as Kornett, based off of the uniform I assume, so I guess the original could have been painted anywhere from 1724 to 1729. I think the coloured version could be taken from "Altpreußische Offiziersporträts" by Hans Bleckwenn from 2000, but I have no way to check whether that is true. I do like how the expression just changes completely from black and white to colour. Someone messed up the eyes along the way :'D

I find it interesting that the names are so similar, and Katte used to be spelled Katt or even Catt--I wonder if someone misinterpreted it and two separate traditions started

That sounds very likely, especially with the overall French speaking leading to a von Katte becoming a de Katt (which he signed at least one letter as). Couldn't fault anyone for mixing that up. At least they have different first names though, I wouldn't want to be someone having to research anyone from the Reuß family where

"All the males (...) are named Heinrich (...) plus a number. In the elder line the numbering covers all male children of the elder House, and the numbers increase until 100 is reached and then start again at 1. In the younger line the system is similar but the numbers increase until the end of the century before starting again at 1. This odd regulation was formulated as a Family Law in 1688, but the tradition of the uniformity of name was in practice as early as 1200." (Wikipedia)

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[cahn]

ok this is AWESOME :D I echo mildred in saying how cool it is to have an artist in the fandom :D

I think acrylic paint always looks really cool although I can imagine it being terrible to work with (although I know basically zero about art so... it's a very vague imagining).

And like mildred I also love how the Fritz and Katte pictures are matching :D

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[prinzsorgenfrei]

Aaaaah, thank you so much! :DD

Acrylic paint is just super weird to me because I'm used to things that end up smooth, like watercolours and coloured pencils.

I mean, I really enjoy drawing historical stuff, so if anyone has ideas for things that could be drawn I'd like to try...? My latest work is another cursed Heinrich sketch though.

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[selenak]

Aw, I'm amused and touched at the overly large wig and Heinrich. :)

Well, if you take comissions... how about Lehndorff?



Or Fredersdorf?

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[mildred_of_midgard]

Fredersdorf! (More enthusiasm when not at work.)

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[prinzsorgenfrei]

That looks like it could be fun! And it would be a chance to get better at faithfully recreating facial features... I'd probably do a different style though because I don't have another canvas board or the patience for another pop art piece. Might fuck around and get some cheap oil paint to try impressionism or something :'D Or I could draw a digital piece, that usually works well with fancy clothing

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[cahn]

Lehndorff! :P :D

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[mildred_of_midgard]

Yay Heinrich! He's one of our faves in this fandom, we've read and written quite a bit about him (especially selenak).

if anyone has ideas for things that could be drawn I'd like to try...?

Lead me not into temptation... :D I.e., I have lots of ideas, and it's awesome having an artist in the fandom now, and the hard part is choosing!

Ooh, Fritz with his dogs! I vote Fritz with his emotional support animal(s). *claps hands*

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[prinzsorgenfrei]

I'm replying to this one because I made a sketch of Fritz with dogs at work today :D I have an idea that might look cute, I'll do my best!

Are there any descriptions of the dogs, apart from the breed? If there aren't, I'll just do whatever with their fur, but it might be fun to make them "recognizable" :D

Fritz and Heinrich are definitely on the list! And I bought a canvas today, despite swearing off acrylic paint forever last week. I might attempt an impressionist-ish Fredersdorf portrait...? Not sure about that yet though, I feel like acrylic paint might be too liquid-y for the effect that I want. Should have gotten oil paint. But I don't know anything about oil paint and mixing colours would be even harder... I'll see how it goes :D Might end up more abstract. The Lehndorff portrait is so funky looking, I really want to do something with that too... So many possibilities!

What I've done so far is... sketch what a Dungeons&Dragons Character inspired by Wilhelmine in this dress might look like. And Wilhelmine in a uniform, because Fiat Justitia was amazing :DD

Fanart

[mildred_of_midgard]

!!!!

An artist! In our fandom!

And Wilhelmine in a uniform, because Fiat Justitia was amazing :DD

OMG, selenak, fanart! This SO AWESOME.

Are there any descriptions of the dogs, apart from the breed? If there aren't, I'll just do whatever with their fur, but it might be fun to make them "recognizable" :D

30 minutes later...

Though I know of a number of artistic depictions of Old Fritz with his greyhounds, including the one in my icon, which is my absolute favorite depiction of Fritz, I can't find any that's contemporary. The famous group portrait by Pesne of bb!Fritz with a drum, Wilhelmine, and that poor black kid in the back with the silver collar, shows what looks like a greyhound to me, but obviously it's not going to be one of the ones he had an as adult.

Biche's Wikipedia article says she was described as white, but it's citing a 19th century source that I don't know if it's reliable, and the article also cites some sources that I know *aren't* reliable, so who knows.

selenak might know a contemporary one off the top of her head that I'm not thinking of.

Regardless, I look forward to whatever you come up with.

Re: Fanart

[prinzsorgenfrei]

Since Wikipedia says that Fritz had Biche painted in the concert room of Sanssouci, I attempted to find a good photo of the picture in question and I did! 1747 would fit, But Wiki quotes the Tagesspiegel and I don't know where they got it from, so I might never know whether this is actually Biche or just a random dog... Ah well, I'll see how it works out :D Digital art is forgiving, so I can just change the colours later if we unearth more information.

That statue is amazing! I've been staring at it for ten minutes, it's SO COOL :DD Gotta remember that one, maybe I can use it for a paper at some point. Do you know who the artist is? I tried googling it, but I couldn't find anything so far

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[prinzsorgenfrei]

Fritz with dogs has been drawn! I posted it to my tumblr here with the lineart attached.

I took some liberties, of course, and i might change the colours later, but I hope you like the result :D

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[mildred_of_midgard]

!!!!

OMG, I love it! How do you do it??? I'm dying of joy here. This is so much better than I was imagining. Expect lots of requests now!

Also, this totally goes with my "Temple of Friendship" fic--may I link to it?

ETA: We also need to start linking to your art in rheinsberg!

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[prinzsorgenfrei]

I'm so glad you like the way it turned out :DD I really suffered while posing the dogs, at some point the black and white one looked vaguely like a dick (to which one of my friends said "well, it is Friedrich's dog"). I would have drawn the full 11 dogs, but I ran out of pose ideas and space after dog #4 :'D
It's kiiiinda obvious which ones were drawn with a reference, but I think it turned out alright overall. I made some people cry, the highest goal of any fan artist and writer :'D

You may link it to whatever you like! :D

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[mildred_of_midgard]

Lol, I was focused on the dogs, and I just noticed the potatoes. And the rose and the note that apparently someone has left.

BEST. DRAWING. EVER.

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[felis]

Oh, this is lovely! Love the nod in the title, too - reunited at last.

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[cahn]

AHHHHHHH wowowowowow

Fritz's face, omg, this is possibly the... first picture I have EVER seen of him smiling and happy?! (I mean, maybe there are some that exist? somewhere? that mildred will now link me to? but I am a fandom newcomer, I've only seen ones of him very serious) Which makes me happy and sad at the same time <3333

The dogs are just awesome! Okay, fine, I'm not a dog person so I guess I wouldn't be the person to ask, but they do not look like giraffes at all :P they are adorable and not even being a dog person I'm all d'awwwwww I can see why Fritz loves them so much <3333

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[selenak]

Awwww. That is absolutely adorable, and I love all the detail, including the dogs looking all different and the potatos on the gravestone. As for the smile, finally, at last, he is truly sans souci!

You’re incredibly talented, and I doff my hat in proper 18th century fashion.

Re: The Pop Art Thing I mentioned

[cahn]

Heinrich is my fave! :DDDDD I love the sketch!

What about Heinrich + Fritz together? Possibly looking suspicious and/or smug? <3 :D (Heinrich kneeling to Fritz, and rather unhappy about it, and Fritz being super smug about it?)

:DDDDDD