cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

2) There was no rumor, but Voltaire had several decades to think of something even more schoolboy taunt than "totally gay", to wit "gay but unable to penetrate because of badly treated STD! Totally bottoming!" for the memoirs, whereas in 1752 he was in something of a hurry.

If true, this would mean that Zimmermann got the idea from Voltaire's memoirs and then elaborated on it so as to make his hero EXTREMELY STRAIGHT. Which would be an interesting and unforeseen-by-Voltaire consequence of his rumor. :D

not only was there a rumor but it was based on some factual stuff

How much of it do you think is plausible? Serious question. On balance, I do think Fritz exchanged fluids at least a few times in his youth, and, as they say, it only takes once. Also, wait, I'd forgotten--didn't Münchow fils say he was treated for something in the field in the 1740s that confirmed he was still sexually active? Oh, right, Münchow was taking issue with Zimmermann's claim.

Well, the one thing Münchow and Zimmermann have in common is that they both think Fritz was treated for an STD, they just differ on which decade it happened in, and whether Fritz continued to be sexually active after 1740.

So yeah, maybe he had an STD. (Though what we have is 3 extremely unreliable sources.)

I also seem to recall (maybe wrongly?) he mentioned Algarotti having some problems in this regard to someone else?

Nope, you remember correctly! In this fandom, you either have an STD or you're accused of having one. What was Lehndorff's source on Kaphengst, anyway? :P

If true, this would mean that Zimmermann got the idea from Voltaire's memoirs and then elaborated on it so as to make his hero EXTREMELY STRAIGHT. Which would be an interesting and unforeseen-by-Voltaire consequence of his rumor.

Quite, but then, Voltaire the historiographer who'd no sooner finished his age-of-Louis-XV that a competitor published (faked) memoirs of Madame de Maintenon, and Voltaire the inexhaustible embroiderer and inventor of yet more drama (FW present at Katte's execution! Wilhelmine flying through the window!) would probably not have been surprised by anything. And he must have come across any type of Fritz fan in his time, including Zimmerman's "he is so STRAIGHT!" type.

On balance, I do think Fritz exchanged fluids at least a few times in his youth, and, as they say, it only takes once.

Given how quickly he jumps on the chance to accuse other people of STD, I'd say it's possible, and I even buy that he asked one of the Schwedt cousins for a doctor, because they're an obvious choice. Just not that it traumatized him into becoming celibate.

Well, the one thing Münchow and Zimmermann have in common is that they both think Fritz was treated for an STD, they just differ on which decade it happened in, and whether Fritz continued to be sexually active after 1740.

Nope, Zimmerman puts the last year of Fritian sexual activity as 1735. (Remember, two years of married bliss with EC and then returning STD in Zimmerman's version!) Whereas Münchow calls bullshit on this based on two reasons: a) personal observation as Fritz' page in 1738 in that if you sleep next door to someone's bedroom, you hear stuff ("not the evening prayers"), and b) seeing something only he and a sworn-to-silence person in the early 1740s were witness to when Fritz was in the field. The later let us conclude he probably meant an army surgeon treating Fritz for STD, but Münchow Fils does not actually say so - he just says "me and one more person who was sworn to silence and never said anything witnessed something".

In this fandom, you either have an STD or you're accused of having one. What was Lehndorff's source on Kaphengst, anyway? :P

If I recall correctly - and I can't look it up, because it's in volume IV, which I read at the Stabi in March just before the lockdown - it was Ludwig Wreech (member of Heinrich's household - I think he was a Haushofmeister - and yes, son of the lady Fritz wrote poems to). Who told it to Lehndorff as an explanation as to why Kaphengst remained behind on this particular trip, complete with saying he caught the disease from one of the actors in Heinrich's theatre group.

From the duo that *always* has more gossipy sensationalism...

I also seem to recall (maybe wrongly?) he mentioned Algarotti having some problems in this regard to someone else?

I dug in more to the question of Algarotti's STD. I started with Blanning, who opens his discussion of the question of Fritz/Algarotti with the claim that in the "Orgasm" poem:

There is nothing...to suggest that Frederick himself was Algarotti’s partner. On the contrary, the passage just quoted is preceded by lines identifying the lover as the nymph “Chloris.”

Which, as I've pointed out, suggests that Professor Blanning of Cambridge University has never heard of a literary trope. But! Blanning continues:

It should also be recorded that, in one letter at least, Frederick appeared to state explicitly that their relationship was not physical. On 29 November 1740 he wrote that he felt as much pleasure at seeing Algarotti again after a long absence as did Medoro when reunited with his beloved Angelica, “the difference being that it is my intellect alone that participates in this pleasure, and that it seeks only to woo yours to warm itself with the fire of your sparkling genius.”

Once upon a time, I read this, and put it down in my mental register as possible evidence for Fritz's low sex drive. Then Blanning continues,

One possible explanation for this reticence, which points the other way, had been signaled in a letter of 24 September in which Frederick referred to Algarotti as an “illustrious invalid of the Empire of love,” wished him a speedy recovery from the “wounds of Cythera” and expressed the hope that he would at least be able to benefit from his intellect when they met at Berlin.

Okay, so Algarotti evidently has an STD, if Fritz, during the peak of their relationship, is wishing him luck with it. But nobody ever accused Algarotti of having a low sex drive. I remind you of my headcanon that Fritz tried it with Algarotti a time or two, and decided he was kind of meh about the act, although he liked flirting.

But, as a good scholar, I am always open to new evidence. And knowing Blanning, I knew that it was necessary to go cross-check his claims in Preuss. (Preuss, as we've seen, isn't 100% reliable either, but all you can do is weigh different pieces of evidence against each other and decide what you believe.)

Now, Preuss doesn't have a September 24 letter, but he does have a letter with the quote Blanning gives. Only he dates it to November 21, i.e. about a week before the "I only care about your intellect" letter.

And Preuss's quote is a little bit different from Blanning's. I give you the original French here:

Adieu, illustre invalide de l'empire de l'Amour. Guérissez-vous des blessures de Cythère, et faites du moins que nous profitions à Berlin de votre esprit, tandis que les p...... ne pourront profiter de votre corps.

Um. I see NO other way to read this than "Since our penises can't benefit from your body, at least we can talk." Fritz is NOT meh about sex with Algarotti. Fritz is like, "Damn! No sex with Algarotti this time."

Oh, wow. Blanning's source for the edition of these letters is from 1837, of course it is, and he didn't even think to check the slightly later Preuss. 1837 editor must have censored that last phrase out. BLANNING YOU DROPPED THE BALL HERE. For the biographer whose status as the "Fritz is gay" champion is exceeded only (to my knowledge) by the even more unreliable Burgdorf, you missed the chance to find PREUSS, he of the "I censor Fritz's letters when necessary," evidently either falling asleep on the job or deciding Fritz/Algarotti is cool, even though Fritz/Marwitz/Heinrich love triangles are fucking weird and won't fly with the current Hohenzollerns.

So. Canon Fritz/Algarotti, and Algarotti has an STD. Right?

Münchow fils: Fritz was treated by a field doctor in the early 1740s for something that proved he was still having sex, you Zimmermann idiot! Het sex, obviously.

Did Fritz get an STD from Algarotti??? I'm with

selenak that I don't think he was traumatized by an operation into celibacy, but the STD is possible. Maybe he hadn't become symptomatic until 1741.

Discuss! (Including alternate interpretations of the French, in which there is an interesting number of plurals.)

Oh, man, I hope Hans Heinrich either had a good sense of humor or was riding in a different carriage on the way to the homage ceremony. :P

HAHAHA omg!! Yeeeeah that original French WITH the missing phrase is... something else. I agree with your translation :PP

I think we should write Blanning and let him know he used the WRONG edition of these letters, I bet he would love to know :D

Hahahaha. :DDD

Detective Mildred strikes again! It's funny, because I sat down this evening to talk about how I don't think Fritz would have said he wasn't having sex with Algarotti if he was, and use that as evidence for the low sex drive theory. But now that I was at the computer, I went and did my due diligence with Preuss (which is very hard to do on my phone), and lo and behold! Fritz is saying he DID have sex with Algarotti. And not as much as he wanted, at that. I had to do a 180 on my whole write-up!

Man, I have got to learn French and German. There's got to be a ton of goodies like that out there!

Oh, and now we're up to documentary evidence for a sexually active relationship with two of the boyfriends: Keith and Algarotti. (I still suspect I'm the first one to pick up on the very indirect but compelling evidence for the former. I would like to have a gander at the original FW order re Keyserlingk in the archives.

selenak, one day, post-pandemic, you're going to have to help me with this. ;) )

ETA: Also, props to Blanning for pointing me in the right direction. Long ago, I had skimmed the complete set of Algarotti letters in Preuss via Google translate, but I did *not* pick up on this aspect. Like MacDonogh, Blanning is a good person to have read. Both their books are chock full of useful information that I've been able to contribute to our discussions. They're just bad people to trust. (And to be fair, most authors are. Ziebura still gets flowers. And we take it back about Marwitz!)

Edited 2020-07-19 05:26 (UTC)

Fritz is saying he DID have sex with Algarotti. And not as much as he wanted, at that.

This is indeed a great discovery, and now I wonder how it might play into the story of the Hannover envoy about Georgii the handsome husar for whose sake Fredersdorf gets temporarily kicked out of the tent... in the summer of 1741, pray remember. Fritz, frustrated that sex with Algarotti is off the menu for now, goes for Georgii instead? With an additional bit of "I conquered Silesia, me!" power trip factoring in the temporary enstrangement with Fredersdorf?

I did remember! I was wondering exactly that! I honestly think the hussar story just became a tad more likely. Hmm. Did Fredersdorf find out Georgii had been concealing an STD?

Edited 2020-07-19 06:12 (UTC)

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but it just occured to me why Preuss might have not censored that passage. Because les p.... might simply stand for „putains“, i.e. whores, which mid 19th century Preuss would not have written out, but indicated via p..., while still considering it within what the Hohenzollerns of his day would accept. Considering Fritz calling women „whores“ was published already elsewhere.

What‘s the French for „penis“ anyway?

Ah, no, you're right. That's a valid historical point and very plausible. I do see two occurrences of putain and two of putains allowed to stand in the correspondence (and none of pénis), per the search engine, but it's possible the context was more acceptable in those instances?

What‘s the French for „penis“ anyway?
According to Google translate, pénis or verge. I did check that before deciding to claim it could be "penis"! But I hadn't thought of putains.

I guess in this case the parallel structure would be we (Voltaire and I) can at least benefit from your esprit, even though the whores can't benefit from your body. I guess that makes more sense of the plural in "les p...", which was bothering me. This also means I have to retract my criticisms of Blanning's scholarship (well, not the literary trope one), pending further evidence. Apologies through the ether!

Huh. Okay, so if it's "whores," then the reason Fritz is only enjoying Algarotti's intellect is either because he now has an STD, or because they weren't having sex in the first place.

Blanning was interpreting it as likely to be the former, which I think influenced my reading of the passage when I first encountered it in the French. In favor of the latter: would Fritz be this cheerful about not getting to have sex with Algarotti, and would he be this blithe about "OMG, what if he infected me last time?"

ETA: Also, would Fritz say, "The whores can't enjoy your body" as code for "and neither can I, thanks a lot," if he were sleeping with Algarotti? I.e. would he class himself with the whores?

Back to thinking this might be low sex drive guy who doesn't care if he can't sleep with Algarotti...either that or Preuss did more censoring than we can tell without looking at the original.

Edited 2020-07-19 20:44 (UTC)

Also, would Fritz say, "The whores can't enjoy your body" as code for "and neither can I, thanks a lot," if he were sleeping with Algarotti? I.e. would he class himself with the whores?

Well, he does like those who pay better than those who get paid, so... Okay, more seriously now: if it‘s „putains“, I do think the passage makes it sound more likely he hasn‘t (yet?) had sex with Algarotti when he‘s writing it, and is definitely not concerned Algarotti might have infected him.

Mind you: that Algarotti tells him at all about the STD is interesting. Because when I recall Boswell‘s London journal, the first of his published diaries, and what I was reminded of when reading the Beuys biography again, Georg Wilhelm of Hannover telling Sophie about his, there‘s this common denominator: you tell your potential and actual sexual partners that you are infected, but you do not tell anyone else. (Your doctor, of course, knows.) It‘s definitely not something to boast of even among the guys, see also that sad scene of dying Seydlitz trying to hide his Syphilis-ravaged face when Fritz visits him the last time. Conversely, taunts that X had STD , amply documented in the thread, would not not work as taunts if it wasn‘t regarded as something shameful usually even by ribald guys.

Well, he does like those who pay better than those who get paid, so...

I laughed.

I do think the passage makes it sound more likely he hasn‘t (yet?) had sex with Algarotti

If he hasn't had sex with him yet, he's not going to, imo. The most likely times were those few days in September 1739, and July 1740 up until the time of writing of this letter. It's November 29, 1740; on December 16, Fritz will be in Silesia without Algarotti, and Algarotti will depart for Turin on December 24. He will then not see Fritz again for a year, when he will, thoroughly fed up, leave Breslau the day after Fritz arrives. He will soon after go to Saxony and not see him again until 1747, at which point things are still apparently somewhat tense between them.

but you do not tell anyone else. (Your doctor, of course, knows.)

Do you tell your king why you can't come to Rheinsberg to hang out with him and Voltaire? Or, if you've had as many partners as Algarotti probably has, does word get out anyway? I mean, do we think Ludwig v. Wreech had sex with Kaphengst? Lehndorff apparently knew (or "knew") without having had sex with Kaphengst! Containing information is hard, and I have low confidence that it was successful.

Also, Voltaire knows (from Fritz?), without having had sex with Algarotti, so again, I think the grapevine is at work. Fritz might have found out without Algarotti having had to tell him qua past or future partner.

I agree that Fritz seems markedly chill about Algarotti having an STD, and that that's evidence for no past sex between them and a lack of upset about the prospect of future sex. On the other hand, maybe what Blanning was getting at was that Fritz the extremely gay wanted to *start* having sex with Algarotti but never got to, because STD. I think I've read somewhere that Algarotti might have been infected already in 1739. If so, maybe Fritz is resigned and sympathetic but not upset in November 1740, because this is old news, and he hasn't been infected.

would not not work as taunts if it wasn‘t regarded as something shameful usually even by ribald guys.

I don't know. Sex jokes in general work because sex is a taboo topic, not because you're necessarily so ashamed of everything you've done that you wouldn't confess it to a friend or boast about it among the guys. And things that are shameful if the general public knows about them (Fritz and Heinrich being gay in Voltaire's pamphlet) aren't necessarily things that didn't come out in private (Fritz and Heinrich being open-secret gay among friends).

And as for Fritz accusing Marwitz of having an STD, it works as a taunt because he's trying to drive Marwitz and Heinrich apart as sexual partners, by accusing Marwitz of having been unfaithful and deceitful, which I think has no bearing on whether Algarotti would have confided in (not necessarily boasted to) Fritz about the effects of going to the brothels, or rumor would have reached Fritz indirectly. Maybe Algarotti's sex life is something he and Fritz talk openly about and write orgasm poems about, though they don't actively have sex. I think it's quite possible they had a flirtatious, sexually-charged, non-fluid-exchanging relationship, whether because of Fritz's sex drive or Algarotti's STD or both.

Btw, I don't consider your plausible putains hypothesis a Debbie Downer scenario; I've personally headcanoned Fritz with a low sex drive since 1999, and am only trying to be open to new evidence. ;) He may have had a normal sex drive and only avoided having sex with Algarotti because infections; that is a third possibility.

I mean, do we think Ludwig v. Wreech had sex with Kaphengst? Lehndorff apparently knew (or "knew") without having had sex with Kaphengst!

Well, Ludwig v. Wreech would have been in charge of paying the doctor(s) for both Kaphengst's and the actor(s) from Heinrich's troupe treatments. This said, I take your point about how the grapevine works.

I think it's quite possible they had a flirtatious, sexually-charged, non-fluid-exchanging relationship, whether because of Fritz's sex drive or Algarotti's STD or both.

Having read some of those early "my swan" letters, definitely sexually charged. Incidentally, wasn't Algarotti supposed to console Lord Hervey in 1739? To say nothing of the pining Lady Mary? One has to wonder why he never tried "I have an STD" to put her off? (Perhaps he knew she'd still go "we can have a beautiful meeting of the minds anyway"?)

Having read some of those early "my swan" letters, definitely sexually charged.

The swan letters and the orgasm poem!

Incidentally, wasn't Algarotti supposed to console Lord Hervey in 1739?

Early 1739. There was still time for him to pick up an STD in the 6 months between Hervey in London and Fritz in Rheinsberg, when he hit Helsinki, St. Petersburg, Danzig, Dresden (probably a good place to pick up an STD), and Leipzig. (Possibly Berlin and Potsdam, I'd have to check whether that was before or after Rheinsberg.)

One has to wonder why he never tried "I have an STD" to put her off?

Maybe he did and what we see are the results? (I knew someone who once told someone who wanted to make out with him that he had mono. Her response? "I don't mind!" His response: *backing away slowly*)

Not that I suspect Lady Mary of wanting to have sex with an STD-riddled Algarotti, but maybe what we're seeing is her desire to have a beautiful meeting of the minds anyway. Or, maybe it didn't occur to him until he actually had one, by which time she was on her way to Italy already.

ETA: Well, Ludwig v. Wreech would have been in charge of paying the doctor(s) for both Kaphengst's and the actor(s) from Heinrich's troupe treatments.

In Rheinsberg, your past self actually recorded the exact transmission to Lehndorff:

After a few days, I receive a letter from Buchholtz, the esteemed secretary of Prince Heinrich and without a doubt the most diligent of his servants. He tells me that the prince has travelled to Braunschweig with Herr v. Knyphausen, but has left Kaphengst behind, since the later has been stopped from travelling by a strong outbreak of the French sickness which he has picked up from German and French drama players.

I wonder if Fritz was paying for Algarotti's doctor?

Edited 2020-07-20 05:47 (UTC)

Orgasm poem: this reminds me - do we have any kind of reaction from Algarotti about this? Either to Fritz himself or to third parties?

Because I might misremember, but I think Darget's reaction to him getting a starring role in the Palladion was at the very least mixed. With the caveat that I only read the old online translation, not the new one, I've seen reviewers of the new Palladion translation say it has sexually charged descriptions of Darget in it and go on about the homosexual gaze of it all. Even the defanged translation from Team Volz which is online (and does not have gay sex, both of the enforced and the voluntary type) does go on about what a handsome fellow he was. And Darget - who if the anecdote of his and D'Argens' rivalry which included D'Argens interfering in Darget's affair with a (female) ballet dancer (not the one D'Argens himself ended up with) that's up at Trier is anything to go by was at the very least bi, if not more het enclined - went eventually back to France Though maybe I'm misremembering and he just quit Fritz' service because Fritz was exhausting as a human being. But him and Heinrich remained close pen pals after Darget left Berlin, which btw makes Catt really the outlier among Fritz' readers since Heinrich also got alone fine with (pre treason) Abbé de Prades, and with Thiebault. Whereas I don't think Darget and Fritz remained in contact.

Now Algarotti, at the time world renowned intellectual and traveller, was a far more independent party than Darget, former secretary of the French envoy, so I'm assuming that Fritz writing the orgasm poem was just part of how they talked to and about each other at the time (i.e. sexually charged banter), that they both enjoyed it and that Algarotti might even have initialized it. But otoh, sexually charged poetry by itself is not necessarily a signal that the recipient/object of same is happy about it and fine with it. (Unless I'm misremembering about Darget.)

No, you're not misremembering. It's hard to find info on Darget, but I've turned up this letter from Voltaire to Madame Denis, dated October 9, 1751:

You must know that his Majesty, in his after-dinner stories, has insinuated a number of little things about his secretary, Darget, at which the secretary is horrified. He makes him play a very odd role in his poem, the Palladium: and the poem is in print. It is true, there are very few copies to be had.

What shall I say? That there is no need to be inconsolable if the great love the nobodies though they laugh at them? But suppose they laugh at them and do not love them--what then? We must laugh in our turn, in our sleeves, and leave them not the less. I must have a little time to remove the money I have invested in the funds here. I shall devote this time to work and patience: and the rest of my life to you.

I also remember us talking about this before, about how Darget was *not* happy about his poem, but Algarotti seems to have been. At least he stayed on good terms with Fritz afterward, as far as I can tell.

Now, Voltaire may not be the most reliable of sources when it comes to trashing Fritz, but I totally buy that Darget wasn't happy. Writing about how you had great sex with a woman (at least nominally) is not the same thing as writing about how you got repeatedly raped by men and/or had close calls with the same.

And Algarotti was regaling Fritz with bawdy songs and poems (admittedly not about Fritz) during that same trip on which the orgasm poem got written. Pending further evidence, I think they just sexually bantered a lot. This might actually have contributed to emotionally tone-deaf Fritz thinking that Darget would be perfectly happy with a royal poem about his imaginary sex life! After all, Algarotti was happy with his! Darn ungrateful readers.

(Aren't you glad you're a royal reader of the 21st century and not at Fritz's court?)

This might actually have contributed to emotionally tone-deaf Fritz thinking that Darget would be perfectly happy with a royal poem about his imaginary sex life! After all, Algarotti was happy with his! Darn ungrateful readers.

We can add Catt getting Fritz "generously" playing Cyrano for him, and Lucchesini getting regaled by Fritz reading the entire Palladion to him, and the poetry written for Catt. (Luccesini probably decided to never ever tell Fritz about a single affair of his right then and there.)

And yes, I'm so glad I'm nowhere near Fritz' court. For any number of reasons.

Forgot to add above, re: Lehndorff - right, so he heard it from Heinrich's secretary. I probably subconsciously substituted Ludwig Wreech in my memory because Lehndorff got on very well with him. Mind you, now I'm imagining at least some of Heinrich's staff keeping Lehndorff updated on Heinrich and his circle because they low key ship Lehndorff/Heinrich and/or figure he's a safe ear to vent their frustration with the favourite du jour to.

(Luccesini probably decided to never ever tell Fritz about a single affair of his right then and there.)

Seems advisable.

Mind you, now I'm imagining at least some of Heinrich's staff keeping Lehndorff updated on Heinrich and his circle because they low key ship Lehndorff/Heinrich

Ha! Now I'm imagining this as

cahn's new headcanon. :D

...yeah. I can totally imagine Algarotti being OK with an orgasm poem (it's a nice sweet poem, if not particularly notable) and Darget... really not. And I would neeeever tell Fritz anything about any romantic interests of mine :P

Mind you, now I'm imagining at least some of Heinrich's staff keeping Lehndorff updated on Heinrich and his circle because they low key ship Lehndorff/Heinrich and/or figure he's a safe ear to vent their frustration with the favourite du jour to.

mildred_of_midgard is right, this is totally going to be my new headcanon now!

See, this is why I love seeing you guys exchange with each other. I can't tell you how delightful it is to see you guys debate as to whether it's penises or putains (and that was a sentence I never thought I'd write!)

It was always inevitable that someone was going to write that sentence about me. :D

Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

Re: The STD thread

Re: The STD thread

Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality