cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

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frederick the great

Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

We have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!

...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D

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Okay, my speculation(s) as to why this is in Voltaire's memoirs but not yet in the 1752 anonymous pamphlet. Aren't mutually exclusive but don't have to be true all at once.

1.) Difference in circumstance of writing. Voltaire wrote the pamphlet as part of his escalating pamphlet war with Fritz, but the book burning and the Frankfurt arrest had not happened yet, so he wasn't yet ready to go fully scorched earth. The memoirs he knew would get published once he was dead, so no problem there. This speculation assumes that the rumor already existed in 1752. However, it could also be that:

2.) There was no rumor, but Voltaire had several decades to think of something even more schoolboy taunt than "totally gay", to wit "gay but unable to penetrate because of badly treated STD! Totally bottoming!" for the memoirs, whereas in 1752 he was in something of a hurry.

3.) Difference in circumstance for Fritz. By 1752, it was very clear to all and sunder that his married life was non-existent, and that any favourites of his were more likely to be of the male persuasion. However not exclusively so: the grand finale of the Barbarina saga wasn't that long ago, and if I was a contemporary with limited-by-rumor-and-some-pamphlets access to information, you bet I'd have assumed the King and the ballerina he was willing to pay that much money for and threw such a fit about (twice) had had a sexual affair. And even better informed circles - like, say, all those ambassadors paying for information - in their reports mentioning handsome men (whether Fredersdorf or the odd husar) - definitely don't consider Fritz wa keeping those guys just to look at. Consider, too, that Fritz wasn't yet living the full hermit life he would post 7 Years War. He'd dumped most of the court obligations on EC and his brothers, but he did participate in the carnival each year, and on some other occasions, too. He wasn't yet seen as completely different from all the other monarchs. And the default assumption for an 18th century monarch is that they have a lot of sex. Then there's the fact that 1752 Fritz is still basking in the Undefeated Conqueror image of Militant Masculinity. So, gossip mongers weren't likely to hit on the idea that he had sex problems resulting in either bottoming or impotence.
However, by the 1770s or whenever Voltaire was writing his Fritzian memoirs (I like to think he kept going back to the manuscript and adding another dig through the decades), things were different. No more ballerinas (with favoured singers like Schmeling Mara, no one assumed Fritz was interested in her romantically at all), and not really male favourites to gossip about, either. Fritz had aged before his time through the war and was hardly seen in public anymore at all, save for the military revues and the occasional guest of state. And while he was admired as the genius who fought all of Europe to a stand still for seven years, the perception of him as invulnerable was gone. All this makes gossip of him bottoming and/or having long term STD caused problems far more easy to buy in the public perception.

4.) Dark horse possibility: not only was there a rumor but it was based on some factual stuff, but Voltaire didn't learn about it while he was still in Prussia. Because while he was still in Prussia, possible sources weren't suicidal, knowing Voltaire could just as well turn on them and either by intent or carelessness let the King know what they said. Now you'd think once he's settled down in Geneva, he'd have had less, not more access to spicy Prussian court gossip. HOWEVER. There's Doctor Theodore Tronchin. Who was treating Voltaire in Geneva while also making trips to Prussia. Which he even did during the war. He was the one to certify Ferdinand as REALLY REALLY ILL. I.e. he did treat members of the royal family (don't know whether he ever treated Fritz personally, but it's not impossible), and presumably hung out with what doctors were there when visiting Berlin. And in terms of his ethics, Tronchin is the one providing a lot of gossip about Voltaire's final weeks of life, of which he only witnessed a bit. So I wouldn't put it beyond him to have shared such a story with Voltaire, had he come across it one way or the other.

ETA: Almost forgot this: what also might factor in Voltaire either inventing or spreading the rumor: Fritz himself evidently thought it was the height of hilarity to accuse someone of having STD. Not just young Marwitz, but Louis XV. in one of the satiric poems Voltaire absconded with that got him arrested in Frankfurt. I also seem to recall (maybe wrongly?) he mentioned Algarotti having some problems in this regard to someone else? And even the censored Volz translated version of the Palladion has some STD jokes. So: maybe Voltaire thought turnabout was just fair game?

Edited 2020-07-15 14:53 (UTC)

LOL, I came here to see if there was an update on the Marwitz STD situation; imagine my (non) surprise to find a discussion of STDs For Everyone :) It's actually pretty charming! (Also, there is a Fritz/Fredersdorf fic in the RMSE collection, which I took the liberty of shaking. Yay ;))

I know right???? Every time I think the two of them are done with the gossipy sensationalism, there is More! :D

Is the Fritz/Fredersdorf fic for you?? :D

Maybe it is! +heart eyed emoji

OMG, a Fritzian fic did make it in! I shook it and it even has Suhm as a bonus! Can't wait!! :DDD

*checks dates*

2 more weeks!

2) There was no rumor, but Voltaire had several decades to think of something even more schoolboy taunt than "totally gay", to wit "gay but unable to penetrate because of badly treated STD! Totally bottoming!" for the memoirs, whereas in 1752 he was in something of a hurry.

If true, this would mean that Zimmermann got the idea from Voltaire's memoirs and then elaborated on it so as to make his hero EXTREMELY STRAIGHT. Which would be an interesting and unforeseen-by-Voltaire consequence of his rumor. :D

not only was there a rumor but it was based on some factual stuff

How much of it do you think is plausible? Serious question. On balance, I do think Fritz exchanged fluids at least a few times in his youth, and, as they say, it only takes once. Also, wait, I'd forgotten--didn't Münchow fils say he was treated for something in the field in the 1740s that confirmed he was still sexually active? Oh, right, Münchow was taking issue with Zimmermann's claim.

Well, the one thing Münchow and Zimmermann have in common is that they both think Fritz was treated for an STD, they just differ on which decade it happened in, and whether Fritz continued to be sexually active after 1740.

So yeah, maybe he had an STD. (Though what we have is 3 extremely unreliable sources.)

I also seem to recall (maybe wrongly?) he mentioned Algarotti having some problems in this regard to someone else?

Nope, you remember correctly! In this fandom, you either have an STD or you're accused of having one. What was Lehndorff's source on Kaphengst, anyway? :P

If true, this would mean that Zimmermann got the idea from Voltaire's memoirs and then elaborated on it so as to make his hero EXTREMELY STRAIGHT. Which would be an interesting and unforeseen-by-Voltaire consequence of his rumor.

Quite, but then, Voltaire the historiographer who'd no sooner finished his age-of-Louis-XV that a competitor published (faked) memoirs of Madame de Maintenon, and Voltaire the inexhaustible embroiderer and inventor of yet more drama (FW present at Katte's execution! Wilhelmine flying through the window!) would probably not have been surprised by anything. And he must have come across any type of Fritz fan in his time, including Zimmerman's "he is so STRAIGHT!" type.

On balance, I do think Fritz exchanged fluids at least a few times in his youth, and, as they say, it only takes once.

Given how quickly he jumps on the chance to accuse other people of STD, I'd say it's possible, and I even buy that he asked one of the Schwedt cousins for a doctor, because they're an obvious choice. Just not that it traumatized him into becoming celibate.

Well, the one thing Münchow and Zimmermann have in common is that they both think Fritz was treated for an STD, they just differ on which decade it happened in, and whether Fritz continued to be sexually active after 1740.

Nope, Zimmerman puts the last year of Fritian sexual activity as 1735. (Remember, two years of married bliss with EC and then returning STD in Zimmerman's version!) Whereas Münchow calls bullshit on this based on two reasons: a) personal observation as Fritz' page in 1738 in that if you sleep next door to someone's bedroom, you hear stuff ("not the evening prayers"), and b) seeing something only he and a sworn-to-silence person in the early 1740s were witness to when Fritz was in the field. The later let us conclude he probably meant an army surgeon treating Fritz for STD, but Münchow Fils does not actually say so - he just says "me and one more person who was sworn to silence and never said anything witnessed something".

In this fandom, you either have an STD or you're accused of having one. What was Lehndorff's source on Kaphengst, anyway? :P

If I recall correctly - and I can't look it up, because it's in volume IV, which I read at the Stabi in March just before the lockdown - it was Ludwig Wreech (member of Heinrich's household - I think he was a Haushofmeister - and yes, son of the lady Fritz wrote poems to). Who told it to Lehndorff as an explanation as to why Kaphengst remained behind on this particular trip, complete with saying he caught the disease from one of the actors in Heinrich's theatre group.

From the duo that *always* has more gossipy sensationalism...

I also seem to recall (maybe wrongly?) he mentioned Algarotti having some problems in this regard to someone else?

I dug in more to the question of Algarotti's STD. I started with Blanning, who opens his discussion of the question of Fritz/Algarotti with the claim that in the "Orgasm" poem:

There is nothing...to suggest that Frederick himself was Algarotti’s partner. On the contrary, the passage just quoted is preceded by lines identifying the lover as the nymph “Chloris.”

Which, as I've pointed out, suggests that Professor Blanning of Cambridge University has never heard of a literary trope. But! Blanning continues:

It should also be recorded that, in one letter at least, Frederick appeared to state explicitly that their relationship was not physical. On 29 November 1740 he wrote that he felt as much pleasure at seeing Algarotti again after a long absence as did Medoro when reunited with his beloved Angelica, “the difference being that it is my intellect alone that participates in this pleasure, and that it seeks only to woo yours to warm itself with the fire of your sparkling genius.”

Once upon a time, I read this, and put it down in my mental register as possible evidence for Fritz's low sex drive. Then Blanning continues,

One possible explanation for this reticence, which points the other way, had been signaled in a letter of 24 September in which Frederick referred to Algarotti as an “illustrious invalid of the Empire of love,” wished him a speedy recovery from the “wounds of Cythera” and expressed the hope that he would at least be able to benefit from his intellect when they met at Berlin.

Okay, so Algarotti evidently has an STD, if Fritz, during the peak of their relationship, is wishing him luck with it. But nobody ever accused Algarotti of having a low sex drive. I remind you of my headcanon that Fritz tried it with Algarotti a time or two, and decided he was kind of meh about the act, although he liked flirting.

But, as a good scholar, I am always open to new evidence. And knowing Blanning, I knew that it was necessary to go cross-check his claims in Preuss. (Preuss, as we've seen, isn't 100% reliable either, but all you can do is weigh different pieces of evidence against each other and decide what you believe.)

Now, Preuss doesn't have a September 24 letter, but he does have a letter with the quote Blanning gives. Only he dates it to November 21, i.e. about a week before the "I only care about your intellect" letter.

And Preuss's quote is a little bit different from Blanning's. I give you the original French here:

Adieu, illustre invalide de l'empire de l'Amour. Guérissez-vous des blessures de Cythère, et faites du moins que nous profitions à Berlin de votre esprit, tandis que les p...... ne pourront profiter de votre corps.

Um. I see NO other way to read this than "Since our penises can't benefit from your body, at least we can talk." Fritz is NOT meh about sex with Algarotti. Fritz is like, "Damn! No sex with Algarotti this time."

Oh, wow. Blanning's source for the edition of these letters is from 1837, of course it is, and he didn't even think to check the slightly later Preuss. 1837 editor must have censored that last phrase out. BLANNING YOU DROPPED THE BALL HERE. For the biographer whose status as the "Fritz is gay" champion is exceeded only (to my knowledge) by the even more unreliable Burgdorf, you missed the chance to find PREUSS, he of the "I censor Fritz's letters when necessary," evidently either falling asleep on the job or deciding Fritz/Algarotti is cool, even though Fritz/Marwitz/Heinrich love triangles are fucking weird and won't fly with the current Hohenzollerns.

So. Canon Fritz/Algarotti, and Algarotti has an STD. Right?

Münchow fils: Fritz was treated by a field doctor in the early 1740s for something that proved he was still having sex, you Zimmermann idiot! Het sex, obviously.

Did Fritz get an STD from Algarotti??? I'm with

selenak that I don't think he was traumatized by an operation into celibacy, but the STD is possible. Maybe he hadn't become symptomatic until 1741.

Discuss! (Including alternate interpretations of the French, in which there is an interesting number of plurals.)

Oh, man, I hope Hans Heinrich either had a good sense of humor or was riding in a different carriage on the way to the homage ceremony. :P

HAHAHA omg!! Yeeeeah that original French WITH the missing phrase is... something else. I agree with your translation :PP

I think we should write Blanning and let him know he used the WRONG edition of these letters, I bet he would love to know :D

Hahahaha. :DDD

Detective Mildred strikes again! It's funny, because I sat down this evening to talk about how I don't think Fritz would have said he wasn't having sex with Algarotti if he was, and use that as evidence for the low sex drive theory. But now that I was at the computer, I went and did my due diligence with Preuss (which is very hard to do on my phone), and lo and behold! Fritz is saying he DID have sex with Algarotti. And not as much as he wanted, at that. I had to do a 180 on my whole write-up!

Man, I have got to learn French and German. There's got to be a ton of goodies like that out there!

Oh, and now we're up to documentary evidence for a sexually active relationship with two of the boyfriends: Keith and Algarotti. (I still suspect I'm the first one to pick up on the very indirect but compelling evidence for the former. I would like to have a gander at the original FW order re Keyserlingk in the archives.

selenak, one day, post-pandemic, you're going to have to help me with this. ;) )

ETA: Also, props to Blanning for pointing me in the right direction. Long ago, I had skimmed the complete set of Algarotti letters in Preuss via Google translate, but I did *not* pick up on this aspect. Like MacDonogh, Blanning is a good person to have read. Both their books are chock full of useful information that I've been able to contribute to our discussions. They're just bad people to trust. (And to be fair, most authors are. Ziebura still gets flowers. And we take it back about Marwitz!)

Edited 2020-07-19 05:26 (UTC)

Fritz is saying he DID have sex with Algarotti. And not as much as he wanted, at that.

This is indeed a great discovery, and now I wonder how it might play into the story of the Hannover envoy about Georgii the handsome husar for whose sake Fredersdorf gets temporarily kicked out of the tent... in the summer of 1741, pray remember. Fritz, frustrated that sex with Algarotti is off the menu for now, goes for Georgii instead? With an additional bit of "I conquered Silesia, me!" power trip factoring in the temporary enstrangement with Fredersdorf?

I did remember! I was wondering exactly that! I honestly think the hussar story just became a tad more likely. Hmm. Did Fredersdorf find out Georgii had been concealing an STD?

Edited 2020-07-19 06:12 (UTC)

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but it just occured to me why Preuss might have not censored that passage. Because les p.... might simply stand for „putains“, i.e. whores, which mid 19th century Preuss would not have written out, but indicated via p..., while still considering it within what the Hohenzollerns of his day would accept. Considering Fritz calling women „whores“ was published already elsewhere.

What‘s the French for „penis“ anyway?

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

mildred_of_midgard - 2020-07-19 20:30 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

selenak - 2020-07-20 03:02 (UTC) - Expand

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Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

selenak - 2020-07-20 04:56 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

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Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

selenak - 2020-07-20 05:55 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

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Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

selenak - 2020-07-20 07:19 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

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Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

cahn - 2020-07-24 04:59 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

cahn - 2020-07-24 04:52 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

mildred_of_midgard - 2020-07-25 17:50 (UTC) - Expand

Voltaire had several decades to think of something even more schoolboy taunt than "totally gay", to wit "gay but unable to penetrate because of badly treated STD! Totally bottoming!" for the memoirs, whereas in 1752 he was in something of a hurry.

This is totally the winner :PP :D Although I guess also

what also might factor in Voltaire either inventing or spreading the rumor: Fritz himself evidently thought it was the height of hilarity to accuse someone of having STD... maybe Voltaire thought turnabout was just fair game?

is in the running for most awesome explanation :) Maybe it was just... what... snarky people did back then? accuse people of having STDs, just for fun??

is in the running for most awesome explanation :) Maybe it was just... what... snarky people did back then? accuse people of having STDs, just for fun??

Well, if you're young Voltaire, you can also accuse them of incest. Remember, young Voltaire's first stint in the Bastille came when he wrote satiric poetry charging that the Regent of France, Philippe D'Orleans (son of Liselotte and her very gay husband of the same name), had sex with his favourite daughter. I know David Bodanis (of the Voltaire and Émilie biography) added "it was likely true", but Jean Orieux (of the big Voltaire biography) does not think so, and while both Bodanis and Orieux have their weaknesses in German history, I trust Orieux to know his stuff in French history more than Bodanis. (For what's worth, German wiki agrees with Orieux.) Anyway, Philippe D'Orleans' reaction to young Voltaire trash talking him is very Philippe II.: first the stint in the Bastille, then he and his daughter visit the premiere of Voltaire's first drama Oedipe (the daughter even went on to watch more performances) and Philippe gives Voltaire a gold medal and 1200 livres as a present.

...compared to "he totally does it with his daughter", Fritz got of lightly with the "he's a bottoming Potsdamite" taunt, I'd say, but then I'm not an 18th century contemporary.

I trust Orieux to know his stuff in French history more than Bodanis.

I trust Bodanis to know pretty much nothing. Though I have to say, I grabbed the first Voltaire bio I could find on Kindle, by Ian Davidson, and wow, he hates on Émilie, and he thinks Bentinck scored with Heinrich! (And Fritz was upset about that.) So I now think there are worse things than Bodanis. (Davidson is still useful for providing dates in footnotes, which I'm planning to work into the chronology as time and health allow.)

Semi-unrelated, since I mentioned Peter Keith elsewhere in this thread as a Fritzian boyfriend for whom we have some documentary evidence for sex (the only such boyfriend now that I'm leaning toward putains for Algarotti), and if my admittedly flimsy case is correct...it would make a lot of sense if the boys tried to downplay it as "masturbation practical demo and technique sharing between two totally het randy young men," because this would account for:

1) How it took FW 18 years to discover apparently through experience* that your son might commit masturbation if left to his own devices.
2) Why Peter got off so easy as to get a promotion to lieutenant (in an obscure regiment as far away as possible) instead of a cashiering for sodomy.

Ahhh. I'd been trying to remember where I read online that Fritz was sent to Wusterhausen to "repent of his sins" when Peter was sent away. English Wikipedia, Fritz article, of course, and the source cited is 1929 biographer Goldsmith. Now, I love her because she openly ships Fritz/Katte like whoa (like I wish she were alive today to post stuff on AO3), but I also hate her because she doesn't provide sources.

Ooh, now that I've opened my copy, I see that she dates it to September 1728. Which, thanks to Kloosterhuis, we know is wrong, but explains where all the fanfic with that dating comes from (including my own, pre-Kloosterhuis). I really think the archivist guy was the first one to step outside Wilhelmine's memoirs and figure out the real chronology.

Anyway, per FW's order with the later kids, "sins" in his mind could just as easily include "masturbation" and bawdy talk with Peter as open sodomy. Now, *we* know Fritz and Peter were totally getting it on, but of course they talked fast and convincingly when caught. Headcanon!

And if you wonder whether FW would fall for this...he's the father who apparently thought that the guy who wasn't interested in women was the perfect role model and sexual warden for his younger sons! (And he was, just not in the way FW intended. I'm so glad Heinrich had him, though.)

* Remember, it was only in 1731 that a royal edict went out against lending money to minors of the royal family. And it's not like FW hadn't known about Fritz's money-spending habits before the big escape attempt and trial. He was like, "Don't do it again." And then Fritz did it again.

So while on the one hand FW believed Fritz was the worst, I think specifics kept taking him by surprise. And masturbation might have been one of those.

Though I have to say, I grabbed the first Voltaire bio I could find on Kindle, by Ian Davidson, and wow, he hates on Émilie, and he thinks Bentinck scored with Heinrich! (And Fritz was upset about that.) So I now think there are worse things than Bodanis.

How dare he. I gathered from Orieux' defensive tone about her (he's a fan!) that there's a bunch of older Voltaire biographers with a hate-on, mostly from before the publication of the (sexual) Madame Denis letters, though. (Which nixed the whole "poor Voltaire, devoted to a woman who first cheats on him with Maupertuis and then with this St. Lambert guy" story.) Older biographers who take that malicious gossip from Madame SuchandSuch that Émilie isn't a real scientist but that her teachers write all her stuff for her as true , and/or don't understand the enormity of what she achieved anyway due to lack of scientific knowledge. But a quick google tells me Davidson is a living author, so he doesn't have those excuses.

(I'm happy to report that my Mr. Pleschinski who translated and edited the Fritz/Voltaire correspondance into Germanin the 1990s thinks Émilie is amazing, as is only proper.)

He thinks Bentinck scored with Heinrich! (And Fritz was upset about that)

Does he provide source citation, and could it be Pangels? I mean, I suppose if you take the early Lehndorff entry where he's upset people think Bentinck scored with Heinrich, and nothing else Lehndorff wrote, you can believe that. Young Lehndorff going "he'd never!" is hardly an argument, Bentinck certainly tried very hard, and Lehndorff in said entry proves there were rumors. Which, given it's late 1751 or 1752 (haven't looked it up again, it's just my vague recollection on Lehndorff's own relationship with Bentinck going "shameless hussy!" to "meeting up/corresponding with my pal Bentinck again to sigh about Heinrich" fits with with these years where he goes from friends to in love with and friends with benefits with Heinrich himself), are understandable; Heinrich is still in his mid 20s, and while every gossip must know he likes men, they may not yet have gathered he likes them exclusively. (Which btw Voltaire in the 1752 anonymous pamphlet seems to have no doubt about.) Whereas later gossips no longer think of Bentinck as an option, and Pangels is the only biographer I've read so far who does. (And I don't think she does so sincerely, because how you can read Lehndorff's diaries and emerge with the idea that Lehndorff ships Heinrich/Bentinck and wanted them together while just having faithful friend interest in Heinrich himself is beyond me. That's a wilful act of falsification in the interest of no-homo'ing.)

Anyway: if Davidson's source is Pangels (with some highly selected and edited diary entries from Lehndorff as back-up), I wouldn't be surprised. However, he adds one new element when saying Fritz (same guy who in the summer of 1751 writes to Wilhelmine re: Heinrich marrying Mina, "women will do him good, muhahaa" ) was upset - does he say why? Because Bentinck wanted his political support against her husband and he thought her having an affair with one of his brothers might lead people to assume she had it? Another reason?

it would make a lot of sense if the boys tried to downplay it as "masturbation practical demo and technique sharing between two totally het randy young men,"

Sounds all extremely plausible to me. I'm still baffled why FW never discovered masturbation himself as a boy, unless the Calvinist teacher who put the fear of God and predestination into him also covered the subject with a mighty DON'T DO IT OR YOU WILL GO TO HELL and young FW was suitably impressed and didn't. Since he was an only child, and really seems to have be utterly caught by surprise that Fritz given the same education would not be just like him, the idea tat different children and youths could respond differently seems to have been new to FW.

(Btw, nothing in Beuys about Sophie Charlotte sending her lady-in-waiting to deflower him, so either Klepper made that up or Beuys thought the source was so unreliable as to not be included in her biography. Not being a biographer but a novelist, Klepper is certainly allowed to make it up.)

Edited 2020-07-23 05:31 (UTC)

selenak - 2020-08-01 07:10 (UTC) - Expand

I was thinking of this! Though apparently, according to your original report of this line, I had to look up the original for that one, and Fritz writes "la femme", singular.

Is it possible that even though "la femme" is singular that it refers to women in general (so that "women" would actually be a better English translation)? I feel like French does this sometimes, although my French isn't good enough to be able to tell reliably when it does and when it actually means the literal English translation.

Re: Voltaire and Émilie

mildred_of_midgard - 2020-07-24 06:35 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Voltaire and Émilie

mildred_of_midgard - 2020-08-01 05:26 (UTC) - Expand

I'm still baffled why FW never discovered masturbation himself as a boy, unless the Calvinist teacher who put the fear of God and predestination into him also covered the subject with a mighty DON'T DO IT OR YOU WILL GO TO HELL and young FW was suitably impressed and didn't.

That's exactly what I think happened! He had the self-control to resist the sin of Onanism, his son was given proper religious instruction, QED. I mean! It's a sin! Right? Why would you do it?

Since he was an only child, and really seems to have be utterly caught by surprise that Fritz given the same education would not be just like him, the idea tat different children and youths could respond differently seems to have been new to FW.

Yep. I'm thinking of him giving Fritz the same French governess he had and expecting Fritz to somehow arrive at the same conclusion of the superiority of German, given the same upbringing. FW comes across as parentally naive in some ways.

I admit my theory is entirely a house of cards, but Peter's dismissal on the same day as Fritz's sudden need to be supervised by his governor at age 18, and the younger boys' sexual supervision starting at a much younger age makes me want to connect the dots in the same way as you cleverly connected the dots between the last child's birth, the locking up of SD's favorite son, and the sudden breakdown in FW's commitment to no extramarital sex.

...This is way more insight into FW's sex life (and lack thereof) than I frankly ever expected to have.

I am really pleased with Orieux and Mr. Pleschinski :D (One day I will read the Orieux biography, I hope! I should probably get through Blanning first, now that Hugo voting is *finally* over...)

*clears throat* Yes, yes, but don't forget we have Ziebura to do! #FandomPriorities

Well, if you're young Voltaire, you can also accuse them of incest.

...so I know having an affair with your niece isn't exactly incest by 21st-century standards, but I feel like it's close enough that possibly older!Voltaire should feel a little ashamed of himself :P

(son of Liselotte and her very gay husband of the same name)

OK I'm glad you cleared that up because when I first saw the name I was like "no WAY did Totally Gay Philippe D'Orleans have sex with his daughter, she was a woman!"

Older Voltaire: What is this thing called shame you talk about?

And yes, his son being his namesake (and inheritor of the duchy of Orleans) is why historians usually call Philippe the first by his (and every King's oldest brother) title of "Monsieur", and Philippe the second gets referred to as "the Regent". He shows up a lot in the early part of Horowitz book, btw. (He was regent during the childhood and youth of Louis XV., which was, of course, also Voltaire's youth.) While according to Orieux and wiki he did not have sex with his daughter, he did have sex with a great many other people in a great many ways (though as opposed to Dad, he didn't have male favourites); in general, he's described as smart, liberal for a Bourbon, artistically gifted (he composed operas, painted and acted in plays by Moliere and Racine), and a great reader. (His personal library forms the basis for the National Library of France (much as Jefferson's library became the basis for the library of Congress), which he founded and opened to the public (i.e. not just to students and scholars - this was the first truly public library). Unfortunately, he was also an iccorrigble spendthrift, and so contributed his share to moving France long towards the French Revolution.

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Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: Algarotti's STD and Fritz's sexuality

Re: The STD thread

Re: The STD thread

Re: The STD thread

Re: The STD thread

Voltaire and Émilie

Re: Voltaire and Émilie

Re: Voltaire and Émilie

Re: The STD thread

Re: The STD thread

Re: The STD thread

Re: The STD thread

Re: The STD thread