Frederick the Great, discussion post 16

[cahn]

We have slowed down a lot, but are still (sporadically) going! And somehow filled up the last post while I wasn't looking!

...I was asked to start a new thread so that STDs could be discussed. Really! :D

Comments

Re: Learning Frederick

[selenak]

I like it! Another possible meeting point would be Wesel, given that's where Voltaire came to visit IRL. Which reminds me: does Fritz still start a correspondance, or, seeing as he lives in France and Cirey is in Lorraine, even pay a visit himself?

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

Wesel: I'm leaning toward having Fritz avoid Prussian territory altogether until he gets to know AW. As I've mentioned, I think a lot of his refusal to give up his claim to the throne at 18 was that the throne was his only prospect of escape. Lovable cushion-offering kid or not, AW was a prospective future FW.

Voltaire: definitely! They make a trip to Cirey when Algarotti is there, and Wilhelmine and Émilie hit it off (per cahn's request) and Peter and Algarotti as well. This is one of the vignettes I'd actually started drafting back in May.

(Someone remind me that I have to get my German on more solid footing first. :P)

Re: Learning Frederick

[cahn]

:PP I have to at least finish talking about our current reading group!! I will seriously yell at you if you leave me hanging at this point!

But really, now that you have Ziebura, don't you want to start going through those? You can call it fic research :PP

also I have conjunctions now, those are also very helpful!!

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

Hee! Well, obviously I'm finishing our current reading group, but at this rate, we'll be done reading Friday or this weekend.

You can call it fic research :PP

I am absolutely calling it fic research. :PP

Selena, next up in our reading group's queue (either already in my possession or ordered and on the way) are:

Ziebura: AW
Ziebura: sons
Ziebura: wives
Oster: Wilhelmine
Krockow: Fritz & Heinrich
Lehndorff: 2007 volume 1

We're about a year behind you, but at least we're following in your footsteps!

(Many thanks to cahn for helping fund my book habit and my German studies. :) )

also I have conjunctions now, those are also very helpful!!

Conjunctions are helpful!

Re: Learning Frederick

[selenak]

I’m very impressed by your thoroughness! A word of warning re: Sons. The reason why I never summed this up for you is that it is basically what looks like an essay/lecture in book form and contains nothing new that‘s not in the other books already. Well, at least it‘s very short.

Also: are you sure you want to do the three Zieburas in a row? Because AW‘s ending combined with the wives‘ fates in short order could feel depressing to you. I would suggest one of the others in between.

Or: outlying suggestion - use the link to the website with Wilhelmine‘s France and Italy letters I put permanently at our Rheinsberg. (And everyone‘s replies to hers.) The letters are in French and German, so you can choose your language to practive on, they‘re short texts and from a time when she was happy and so were Fritz and the sibs - leaving aside Fritzian sour grapes outbursts which he acknowledges as such - , and they‘re plenty interesting to boot in terms of providing glimpses at France and Italy during that time. (Not to mention that letters like Wilhelmine’s about her non-audience with the Pope showcase her and Fritz kidding each other in what must have been one of the charms of their interaction when they weren’t needing comfort or help with the drama of their lives.) I‘m not saying you should read everyone, but if I were you, I‘d read some between the AW and the Wives, for example, to lift your spirits, and as a reminder these people have modes of interaction other than being punched and punching down. If you like, I could select a few so you can look them up.

Re: Learning Frederick

[mildred_of_midgard]

Because AW‘s ending combined with the wives‘ fates in short order could feel depressing to you.

Haha. Well, cahn definitely wanted to do the Ziebura three in that order so as to develop sympathy for the guys before reading about how they punched down. She said if she read the Wives book first, she'd go into the other two resenting the hell out of the Hohenzollern brothers.

She probably wouldn't mind splitting them up, but there's one other consideration: my main goal here is to beef up my German. And Ziebura has straightforward prose that I can handle, and unless Oster or Krockow also do, I'd like to work my way up. I learned my lesson trying to jump straight to Roes and Horowski. But if they do, I've no objection to interspersing either or both. (Lehndorff I'd like to leave for last, since I suspect the genre will make the content more difficult to follow in a foreign language.)

Additionally:
- I have a seriously high tolerance for depressing material.
- For someone who's trying to learn German, "no new content" (which I had guessed already) is a feature, not a bug. :)

Cahn, if you want to skip Sons, I don't mind. I'll read it on my own, and it'll give you a break between depressing book one and depressing book three. But it's short (~100 pages), and just because it has nothing new to Selena, doesn't mean you won't get anything out of it. :)

Selena, thank you for the Wilhelmine correspondence offer. I will seek out recommendations when the time comes (probably when we get to French--I want to read her memoirs and a bunch of correspondence).

Re: Learning Frederick

[cahn]

I mean, maybe that's not so bad, I might not feel so bad about AW if I'm really annoyed at him? :P Nah, I still think wives should be last. Either splitting them up or not will work for me.

I miiiiight take you up on that skipping Sons. We'll see. It is possible my German might be good enough by that point not that I'll feel up to reading it, but that at least I might feel interested in seeing how much I can make out.

Though I think novels might actually work better for me for that -- are the other Voigts in German, or is it just Homecoming?

German reading group

[mildred_of_midgard]

Either splitting them up or not will work for me.

We'll see how I feel about the syntax of the others when they arrive, then, and play it by ear.

Everyone just remember: the quicker I get my German up to snuff, the quicker I can start reading things Google translate can't handle, like blackletter font, or lots of footnotes or other complicated formatting. :D

Though I think novels might actually work better for me for that -- are the other Voigts in German, or is it just Homecoming?

Nope, it's all of them! All the Tillerman books, I mean, I haven't checked her others. I just grabbed my personal favorite for my own use, but if you want to pay for one or more of the others, and possibly bribe me with a book of my own choosing to generate an interleaved translation for you, I'm game. :)

Re: August 17

[mildred_of_midgard]

Oh, another moment of greatness from cahn: I had halfheartedly mentioned trying to write an interface with Google translate, but when I realized it would cost money and be slightly complicated to write, I shrugged and put it to the side.

Only when cahn offered to commission a Wilhelmine correspondence translation, did I actually dig into what it would take, discover the free trial¹, and actually produce the necessary algorithms! Suhm would not be ranked among the boyfriends without those algorithms, I would not be learning German (and cahn's German learning would be more impaired), and I don't believe Selena would have the all-important Heinrich-Fritz correspondence (unless you've since found it in German? I mean, beyond Ziebura's all-important citations.).

See, cahn? You make the awesomeness possible!

¹ Which ends in January, after which the translation itself will cost money, above the book costs and the Mildred-labor costs if the translation isn't intended for me. Otoh, I accept Fritzian books as a currency, so everyone benefits. :)

Re: August 17

[cahn]

I knoooow and this is so great, I just suggest something and then magically it happens! :DDDDD

well we just have to find a bunch of text before January then, I guess

Re: August 17

[mildred_of_midgard]

that shouldn't be a problem at this rate :P

Btw, just to be clear, it's not unlimited text between now and January, it's $118 worth, which is a little less than half of the $300 total for the free trial. I suspect we'll get through our $300 by the time January rolls around, though if it's November and we've still got a ways to go, I'll do what I can to take advantage of the free translation services remaining.

I knoooow and this is so great, I just suggest something and then magically it happens! :DDDDD

Alchemy! Detective + algorithms + reader + German speaker + Germany traveler + asker of the right questions = GOLD.

Why am I not in bed? Go to bed, self. Do you want to be miserably tired again tomorrow and not do German? BED.

Re: German reading group

[mildred_of_midgard]

Royal reader selenak, how do you feel about reading a book for me/us in the name of a good cause? Two good causes, actually.

Because I'm going to produce an interleaved translation of a book cahn wants to practice her German on, and in return for my labor she's going to bribe me with a book of my choosing.

Now, as we all know, I have no time to read, I am busy learning your wonderful language. But I would very much like someone to read me Lady Mary Montagu's biography, which is supposed to be good, and definitive, and at least semi-recent (2001). It's also long, and apparently devotes a lot of page time to her literary output, but you can skim whatever is not of interest.

There's no particular rush, but would you have time and interest in the next, say, few months to read and summarize this for us? I feel that, in addition to cahn and me improving our German, letting Lady Mary be a little more three-dimensional in our fandom than "introduced inoculation to Europe and stalked Algarotti" is a worthy cause.

If you're too busy, no worries!

Re: German reading group

[selenak]

Right now I'm too busy, but I might manage it next month. I certainly want to know more about Lady Mary!

Incidentally: in the long term, I've also been meaning to read her letters from Turkey, aka the ones which made her famous. (And which Heinrich did read and recced to his friends and relations, which is the very flimsy ground on which I base my speculation he knew some English on.) So depending on when I manage the biography, I might add the letters after.

Yuletide

[selenak]

Sooooo, September is Yuletide nomination time. I feel we should coordinate again.

First of all: this time, we should maybe nominated two historical RPF sections. The other one being "18th Century CE European Englightenment". Why? Because then we could nominate Émilie and ensure she won't show up only as an addendum to a Fritzian story, but in a star role. For Example: if we nominate Émilie, Voltaire, Richelieu, Algarotti, Maupertuis, De Lambert, Madame de Pompadour, and hell, why not, Madame Denis, we could ask for anything - happy days in Cirey, (card shark) drama at Versailles; crack AU where everyone joins Maupertuis on his Lapland expedition, sharp little character vignette where Émilie and Madame Denis do not talk about Voltaire at all and yet exchange very pointed remarks about each other, Émilie making a Newtonian breakthrough... you get the idea. If I do manage the biography sooner rather than later, we can also add Lady Mary, definitely an enlighted woman.

Secondly: Frederician RPF - here I, personally, would hope for the characters necessary for the three possible plots I have in mind: Rokoko Babysitting, Fredersdorf & Grigorij the handsome husar mystery, Fritz Gets Captured in the War AU. Added to which Katte because Mildred, and also if anyone does get seduced into joining us after all, chances are higher that they'd want to write Fritz/Katte than anything else.

So, characters needed for this round of Frederician RPF: Fritz himself, Fredersdorf, Grigorij, Heinrich, Seydlitz, MT, Joseph. Might come in handy: EC, Amalie, Mantteufel, Sophie as in future Catherine for the Rokoko babysitting, Isabella and the Chevalier D'Eon for the 7 Years War AU, Suhm for a flashback in the Handsome Husar Mystery (if Gigorij got his job pretending to be recced by Suhm just after Suhm died, and Fredersdorf unearths the truth). (And of course Voltaire in general, and for the AU in particular since he needs to come to Fritz' defense.

Thoughts? Ideas?

Re: Yuletide

[cahn]

Oh wow, it is getting to be that time, isn't it! :DD

I am up for nominating two historical RPFs!

Enlightenment: I will definitely request Emilie! Now that you mention that I would LOVE snarky Emilie & Madame Denis :D (Will probably only request Emilie for sure because there are soooo many cool stories that could be told about her (or where she's one of several important characters), don't want to hem my writer in :D )

In terms of Frederician characters, I think it's most important to nominate Fritz, Katte, Heinrich, Fredersdorf, Grigorij, Voltaire, and MT, because I think the others pretty much come along for the ride :) Welllll, I now have a vested interest in nominating Amalie, okay, and Sophie too :D (In terms of requesting... we will see... my thought is that I will probably request Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, and MT, and give the writer carte blanche to use any or all of them and anyone else in the tag set :D Or heeeey, I might live dangerously and put "any character"! Actually on second thought maybe I will do that :D )

Re: Yuletide

[selenak]

Okay, then let's allot characters to each other so we can get the maximum amount in.

Englightenment:

Self: Émilie, Voltaire, Madame de Pompadour, Madame Denis

You: Richelieu, Maupertuis, De Lambert, Algarotti.

Mildred (if okay with it): Lady Mary (if she and Émilie never met, there's no reason not to write a fictional meeting!), Marquis du Chatelet (if someone wants to write young Émilie), Lord Hervey (if someone wants to write Mary/Hervey/Algarotti), ?

Fredericians:

Self: Fredersdorf, Grigorij, MT, Voltaire.

Mildred (if okay with it): Fritz, Katte, Suhm, Lehndorff. (Hey, I wouldn't exclude SOMEONE writing a "five times Lehndorff kissed Heinrich" short fic or something like that.)

You: Heinrich, Amalie, Sophie/Catherine, Wilhelmine.

What say you?

Re: Yuletide

[mildred_of_midgard]

Works for me, with a couple of reservations:

1. If I'm not going to sign up, I'm happy to nominate for both historical fandoms. If I am going to sign up, though, two of my nominations will be taken, in order to ensure I can offer 4. So I might not be able to nominate for the Enlightenment. :/ (This is my main complaint about Yuletide: not enough nomination slots relative to the required number of offers.)

2. I'm doubtful about the value of some of these characters, especially Grigorij.

As I see it, the value of character being nominated lies not in whether you want to write them, but whether you want to use them to narrow the range of stories you're willing to write or receive. For instance, if you want to write Grigorij, you can fit him into any request that includes just Fritz or Fritz and Fredersdorf (but you can also write Rokoko babysitting, curtain fic, etc.) If you want to write Fritz/Fredersdorf but *only* Grigorij, then you offer Grigorij but not Fritz or Fredersdorf, thus ensuring you'll only be asked to write that one particular story. If you offer Fritz, Fredersdorf, and Grigorij, that's no different in practice from offering Fritz and Fredersdorf without Grigorij. If matched on someone who requested Gregorij, you can write him; if matched on someone who requested Fritz and/or Fredersdorf only, you can still write him. (I guess unless someone puts him in their DNWs, which is highly unlikely. :P)

And if you request Fritz and/or Fredersdorf, you can get any number of delightful stories, but if you request Grigorij, you're only going to get matched on an author in this fandom who offered Grigorij. Which I'm pretty sure is just going to be Selena, even if you specify "or" in your request. I would request Grigorij only if I *didn't* want any other Fritz/Fredersdorf story, only this specific one. Otherwise, I would just request Fredersdorf and open myself up to receiving any number of stories, including this one.

Now, if you wanted Fritz/Fredersdorf but only with, say, Grigorij or Voltaire, then you could request all four and specify A, B, and either C or D...but is anyone going to do that, is what I'm saying? I'm not. It doesn't sound like cahn is. selenak, if you do that, you're not likely to get matched on this fandom.

And treat-wise, you can get the Grigorij story in the main collection just by having a request that specifies that you're more flexible on "or" matching in treats than in the assignment, as cahn did last year. For example, I could request "Fritz, Katte, and Suhm" with a "Fritz and Katte, or Fritz and Suhm" for my assignment, and a "go crazy" for any treats. :D

While I am *delightedly* looking forward to reading about the handsome hussar episode, it just seems like we could use this nomination slot more efficiently. So unless someone constructs a scenario where we would get value out of offering or requesting Grigorij, I vote for nominating a character who has the potential for multiple good stories, not just one.

Re: Yuletide

[cahn]

I think mildred is right and I am wrong here (about the relative value of the character nominations), though partially because I hadn't thought as much about my own potential requests as I now have done :)

I plan to request some prompts I'm particularly interested (see below) in but also leave my requests as open as possible while still allowing gaming by anyone who is writing. My current plan is to request a small number of characters but not Katte, so that anyone wanting to write Fritz/Katte will match on the shippers but not me, and anyone can easily game away from me. I'm thinking requesting Heinrich only, for example. But then also saying like I did last year that for treats I am totally happy with any character :)

In both cases the idea is for me to make it possible for any writer who... may be interested in writing about a variety of characters... to do that :D Because of this, I agree that not as many characters are needed!

The same holds for Enlightenment. I think we can get along without a few of these nominations -- all of Mildred's except for Lady Mary, and I think de Lambert could be replaced by Lady Mary, since de Lambert is only interesting to us in the context of Emilie. I make an exception for Lady Mary as (a) she seems like she might be interesting in her own right, not just in relation to Algarotti, and (b) if you end up reading her bio or letters, we might be more interested in requesting/writing her anyway :)

So, for Enlightenment, I propose
selenak: Émilie, Voltaire, Madame de Pompadour, Madame Denis
cahn: Richelieu, Maupertuis, Lady Mary, Algarotti.

For Frederician, IDK, can we get away with eight nominations, thus freeing up an additional fandom slot for one of us? I got the Wilhelmine fic of my dreams last year :D and I got an additional fic of awesomely dysfunctional!Wilhelmine in RMSE (I mean, of course this was my gift too :D ) so I'm OK not nominating her this year (although I'm still encouraging everyone to write about her!).

If I had to pick eight that both represented our interests, would allow you to write everything you wanted, and may have wider applicability to other requesters/writers than just the three of us:
Voltaire, MT, Sophie/Catherine, Heinrich
Fredersdorf, Fritz, Katte, Suhm

(By the way, I'm absolutely prompting "Fritz Gets Captured AU" and "crack AU where Heinrich has an arranged marriage to Sophie that results in them constantly plotting against each other but also still liking each other," anything else is additional gravy :D )

Also, mildred, were you by chance thinking of nominating Zenna Henderson? Because we could coordinate on that as well :P

Re: Yuletide

[mildred_of_midgard]

I think in Venn diagrams. I have literally hired someone purely on the basis of their demonstrated ability to think in Venn diagrams. :)

The same holds for Enlightenment. I think we can get along without a few of these nominations -- all of Mildred's except for Lady Mary, and I think de Lambert could be replaced by Lady Mary, since de Lambert is only interesting to us in the context of Emilie. I make an exception for Lady Mary as (a) she seems like she might be interesting in her own right, not just in relation to Algarotti, and (b) if you end up reading her bio or letters, we might be more interested in requesting/writing her anyway :)

Agree with all of this and was thinking the same thing. The Marquis is only interesting in terms of narrowing down possible Émilie stories, but Lady Mary could easily get her own story!

Agree we could go with 8 characters for the Enlightenment, but it hadn't occurred to me that we might only go with 8 Fritzian characters. Let me think about that.

See, I had been thinking about replacing Gregorij with my lowkey fave Peter Keith. And after thinking about it some more, if I do sign up, what I might do is request Katte, Keith, Fredersdorf, and Suhm, and specify "or".

I...actually wouldn't mind getting a story with one or more of them that didn't include Fritz. It's less likely to happen with Suhm, but I don't think I'd mind if it did, and god knows Peter's eulogy has all sorts of writable moments, and mob boss AU has spoiled me with THREE modern AUs with my beta ship Katte/Keith...so yeah, that line-up would be a way to ensure I either got a shippy fic as my assignment, or a fic with one of my favorite boyfriends, and not, say, Fritz and Amalie. (Which would be great! just not as an assignment.) And then for treats say, "Go wild." And as long as someone was willing to gamble that they wouldn't get assigned someone else who requested this Suhm guy who they have no idea who he is, they could offer all four with the intention of writing Katte.

This is in the extremely unlikely even that I sign up. But I still have *checks* 2 months to decide!

So, assuming I signed up, and you requested Heinrich, and I requested Katte, Keith, Suhm, and Fredersdorf as an "or", that leaves selenak the option of writing me handsome hussar as an assignment or you Rococo (lol, Selena, you've trained me into spelling it the German way!) babysitting as an assignment, and the others as treats.

Now, if I don't sign up (argh, I'm going to have to make at least a soft decision by nominations!), then we don't need to nominate Suhm or Keith. Katte...maybe, if it entices someone else to request Fritz/Katte? It is the OTP of the fandom at large. Anyway, if I decide I'm not signing up, I'm happy to nominate any additional characters anyone wants, like Lehndorff.

If I am signing up and we want to limit ourselves to 8 characters so as to free up a fandom slot for someone, I can give up Suhm (still my 2nd favorite boyfriend, but I feel Peter has more fic potential) and nominate Fritz, Katte, Keith, and Fredersdorf. Otherwise, if we're all three nominating Fritzian characters, I can nominate 4 boyfriends and someone else can take Fritz.

(By the way, I'm absolutely prompting "Fritz Gets Captured AU" and "crack AU where Heinrich has an arranged marriage to Sophie that results in them constantly plotting against each other but also still liking each other," anything else is additional gravy :D )

Oooh, the last one. *ponders* :D

Also, mildred, were you by chance thinking of nominating Zenna Henderson? Because we could coordinate on that as well :P

Alas. While it falls into the category of fandoms I still love, it falls neither into fandoms I can write, or fandoms that I wouldn't be disappointed if I got that instead of Fritz. My planned nominations:

Cryptonomicon: Rudy, Alan, Angelo
3rd century Roman emperors: Elagabalus, Diocletian, Maximian (if the mods allow me to group together early and late 3rd century emperors like this).

I'd request Rudy, Alan, and Angelo, and specify in my request that it's Rudy and Alan OR Rudy and Angelo for an assignment, and anything involving Rudy for a treat. And I'd offer all three.

I'd request Diocletian and Maximian, and offer Elagabalus, and I'm hesitating over offering Diocletian and Maximian. I have ideas for the latter, but I'd have to re-research, and I don't have really strong inspiration atm. But MAN I would die of happiness if someone wrote me Diocletian and Maximian.

And these are some rare fandoms: Diocletian and Maximian have 0 fics on AO3. Cryptonomicon has 2 fics, one of which is Rudy and Alan, the other is a different (and admittedly more major) character.

And in terms of 18th century Enlightenment, I'd probably request and offer Algarotti and Émilie, as an "or" in my request. I admit that since selenak mentioned the "everyone goes to the North Pole" crack fic, I've been toying with a crossover with my favorite polar explorer: Amundsen. Wrong century, but hey, crackfic. :P

Re: Yuletide

[mildred_of_midgard]

I got an additional fic of awesomely dysfunctional!Wilhelmine in RMSE (I mean, of course this was my gift too :D )

Of course it was! I'm glad you feel about it the same way I feel about "Katte lives" and "Suhm makes starry eyes at Fritz." :D

Re: Yuletide

[mildred_of_midgard]

Rereading your comment, did you take my "we could use this nomination slot more efficiently" to mean that *I* thought we should only have 2 Fritzian fandom nominations? Because I now realize that was unclear, but what I meant was we could nominate MORE FRITZIAN GOODNESS. Like Peter Keith! Or Mimi the monkey!

Man, if nominations and requests weren't so limited and weren't matching on AND instead of OR, I would so nominate and request Biche, Alcmene, and Mimi. :P As it is, it's like Grigorij: if anyone wants to write me dog and/or monkey fic, I will eat it right up, but I'm not going to use it to narrow my matches as either author or requester.

Re: German reading group

[mildred_of_midgard]

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, and I hope you do find time to read the letters! I very much want to read her correspondence, but the complete, non-bowdlerized set is $50 each for 3 volumes, and while my local library has it, I don't think they would like it if I ripped out all the pages and churned it through my document scanner. :/

The book is now on order.

cahn: I'm almost finished formatting AW. I was going to finish tonight, but then I discovered Google had decided to disappear the last 30 pages (too incendiary against Fritz? Prussian cyberagents from the beyond?), so I'm going to have to figure out what went wrong tomorrow and finish up. I should have the translation uploaded sometime tomorrow so we can resume our Hohenzollern and also German studies.

Yay reading group!

Re: Yuletide

[selenak]

You're as smart and logical in organisation as a Prussian general. :) Agreed on Grigorij and on Peter Keith. BTW, I hadn't mentioned, but one of my prompts is going to be the Straßbourg trip (which has an optional Wilhelmine cameo if you include the Bayreuth stop en route) and would feature Fritz, AW, Fredersdorf and Algarotti. To help with this, I'll translate the relevant passage from the "Day to day in the life of Fritz" book. Just not now. *g*

Anyway, let us know in time whether you want to nominate but not officially join (though intending to beta and treat) or whether you want to join, because coordination is key and we need to be clear who'll nominate which characters so no one overlaps. :)

Re: Yuletide

[mildred_of_midgard]

You're as smart and logical in organisation as a Prussian general. :)

:D High praise! I'm glad my arguments made sense to everyone.

To help with this, I'll translate the relevant passage from the "Day to day in the life of Fritz" book. Just not now. *g*

So, um, yesterday I went looking to see if that book had the aliases for the Netherlands visit, and as far as I can tell it doesn't, but what I wanted to say is that I kind of read the entire 4 pages of the Netherlands on my own, in that old-fashioned font, without help! I didn't get everything, and it definitely took a lot of concentration, but I feel like a person who read and understood those 4 pages!

But since I can only do that in small doses, very slowly, and without perfect mastery, an actual translation of the Strasbourg passage (which I actually glanced at last night but didn't pick my way through laboriously) would be well received. :) I just wanted to announce that tangible progress is being made, and one day I might actually be able to read entire blackletter font books!

Anyway, let us know in time whether you want to nominate but not officially join (though intending to beta and treat) or whether you want to join, because coordination is key and we need to be clear who'll nominate which characters so no one overlaps. :)

Anyone as organized as a Prussian general will definitely let you know in time. :) And, yes, I would definitely hope to treat if I didn't sign up.

AW readthrough

[mildred_of_midgard]

AW readthrough: I made it through the introduction and the first paragraph of the first chapter. (It's been a rough week, sleep-wise.)

The thing that jumped out at me was Ziebura saying the harsh judgment of historians on the reliability of Wilhelmine's memoirs cannot be maintained after reading the AW+Wilhelmine correspondence.

Now, I know you said that AW was her intercessor and intermediary during the fallout with Fritz, and that definitely doesn't make her relationship with Fritz look like all sunshine and roses, but her memoirs don't cover that period.

I also know you've reasoned that she was projecting her fallout with Fritz during the time of the memoir-writing back into the 1730s and early 1740s and tried telling herself she should have seen it coming, but said that the letters between her and Fritz don't bear that out. I also know she's unreliable on factual matters pertaining to events she wasn't present for, because she doesn't have access to the archives.

Personally, I've never been fully onboard with historians trying to say, "Well, FW was definitely abusive, but you have to tone down Wilhelmine's accusations." She's certainly going to skew the picture she presents (and justifiably so), but disbelieving victims because the abuse sounds too terrible to be true is not something I want to do by default.

So what aspect of the harsh judgment on reliability is Ziebura challenging here?