![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
Frederick the Great discussion post 12
Every time I am amazed and enchanted that this is still going on! Truly DW is the Earthly Paradise!
All the good stuff continues to be archived at![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
rheinsberg :)
All the good stuff continues to be archived at
rheinsberg :)
Messages from the Empress
Otoh, there really excellent original documents on the MT side of things provided as well. Like these letters to Joseph, getting across her personality, the mixture of mother and sharp minded sovereign, and the relationship really well.
From September 14th, 1766, in a letter which obviously isn't just about Joseph:
My dear Son -
(..) be careful to enjoy yourself by making malicious quips. Your heart isn't yet evil, but it will become so. It's high time not to indulge yourself in all the puns, all the witty sayings which only aim at humiliating other people, to make them look ridiculous; this is how you estrange yourself from all decent people and make them believe that humankind doesn't deserve to be respected, even while one has distanced through one's own actions everything which is good until only villains, imitators and flattering admirers of one's own talents are left, and only they are still getting entrance in one's heart.
After this long sermon which you will forgive my heart for - I do love you and my countries all too much - I will draw a comparison for you regarding your gifts and indulgences. You are a coquette of the mind, and wherever you think you can find ésprit, you run after it without applying judgment. A pun, a particularly adroit phrase occupies you, you may read it in a book or hear someone say it. Then you use that phrase at the next opportunity, without considering wether or not it really fits, perhaps like your sister Elisabeth with her beauty. She may please the Swiss guard or a prince, she doesn't care and is content and does not want anything else.
As I am closing this letter, I am taking your head with both hands, embrace you tenderly and wish you will forgive me for boring you with such long speeches; only look at the heart which has produced them - I want only for the world to love and esteem you as you deserve. I always remain
your good old mother
This is is one way of saying "Don't be like Fritz, you don't want to pay the human price" without ever mentioning his name. Fast forward to more than a decade later, and Joseph is like Fritz in the worst way, i.e. by invading Bavaria. Here's Mom trying to argue him out of it, on March 14th, 1778, very much belying son Leopold's claim that she was half senile:
The obstacles and dangers which were predictable from the moment things were set in march to Bavaria have now happened and keep piling up. Consequently, I would be unworthy to bear the name of Princess and Mother if I would not act according to circumstance - without considering how far my own existence could be affected. Nothing less than the loss of our House and Empire, perhaps even an upcoming revolt in Europe could be at stake. No sacrifice is too much to prevent this misfortune in time. I'll gladly play the scapegoat, even at the risk of my reputation. May people call me crazy, weak and cowardly - nothing will stop me from tear Europe away from this dangerous position. I don't know a better way of spending the rest of my miserable life. (...)
I must draw a picture of our military and political situation, and I am all the more obliged to do so as anything further will be the consequence of the step I am about to make, which I owe to my conscience, my duty and my love. The King of Prussia's army outnumbers ours by thirty to fortythousand men, especially in the cavalry. His position is far more advantagous, we have to march twice that far in order to get where we would need to get to. He has fortresses, we don't have a single one. We have to protect far stretched countries but we would have to withdraw all the troops form them and leave them unprotected to any invasion or uprising. This is the case with Galizia, in which less than two hundred horses and seven bataillons of old invalids remain. The province is open to anyone, after we hardly got it; it is anything but secured. The spirit of freedom there hasn't been soothed, and the nation has proven that it is determined if anyone fans the flame. The King of Prussia and for that matter the King of Poland and the en tire nation won't hesitate to use their advantage at the first given opportunity, especially since now the law of the strong prevails, and no one will feel it harder than we will.
Hungary, too, is free of troops, and in its close neighbourhood, the war between Russians and Turks will start anew. The Prussian dealings with Constantinople are known, and the latest letter of the King of Prussia don't leave any doubt that he won't leave any method untried in order to put this particular enemy in our backyard, too, who could take whatever he wanted in Hungary, since it is free of troops and fortresses. If our armies stood in Saxony, or even Silesia - which I doubt they would - or in the Upper Palatinate, it would be impossible to bring help to the two large kingdoms of Galizia and Hungary. We would have to leave them to their sad fate, to the whim of a barbaric enemy and to all the devastation which would be the consequence, and would destroy those countries for a generation. I won't even mention our provinces in Italy, the Netherlands and our new possessions in Bavaria. All of these would have to be given up, and where on earth should we take the means from to conduct this horrible war if we have to give up five countries right at the start? Where should the trust come from which would give us allies and financial resources? And why should our own countries trust us any longer if they see they are getting taxed heavily in peacetime for their defense, but are getting given up in the first danger of a war? Of a war which, once we've started it, would now end with our utter ruin, and this downfall would even be the only method to save Europe, and it would be our own fault. It is this which I will never agree to and never give my blessing to, for everything is at stake. Let's not indulge in delusions. Once the sword is out of its sheath, there won't be any time for reconciliation. The well being of thousands and thousands of human beings, the survival of our empire depend on this. After all which I have said I must tell you that I cannot permit myself to act against my conscience and my conviction; this is neither a mood nor cowardice.
Let's just say that after this letter, Joseph should not have been surprised that she went behind his back and reached out to Fritz when he didn't listen. Not, mind you, that she had softened on Fritz as a person. Here's MT, revealing herself to be either a secret Voltaire reader or just by sheer coincidence hitting up on a suspiciously familiar Voltairian phrase. Context: Joseph has sent her a letter from Fritz. Which is handwritten by Fritz, and thus really terribly spelled. Says Maria Theresia, educated by Jesuits:
I confess my weakness: this writing in his own hand when he's surrounded by 40 000 men, (...) sounding like a theatre king or theatre despot has amused me. So this villain is not as versatile as that, and he would, on this occasion, have been in dire need of someone to clean his dirty laundry again.
Re: Messages from the Empress
This is is one way of saying "Don't be like Fritz, you don't want to pay the human price"
Yes. Yes, it is. I didn't know that Joseph was going down that road, though it makes perfect sense.
Which is handwritten by Fritz, and thus really terribly spelled.
Haha, an unreliable (but plausible) secondary source tells me that his ministers had to read his orders out loud to figure out what on earth he was trying to say.
he would, on this occasion, have been in dire need of someone to clean his dirty laundry again.
Ha! Go MT.
Re: Messages from the Empress
The Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt start in 1965. (As opposed to the Nuremberg Trials, these aren't conducted by the former Allies but by German courts. Big difference in terms of what they say about and to the population.) In 1967, student demonstrations explode all over Germany. Well, they do that everywhere, but in Germany it comes with a specific rejection of not just the previous generation but the entire mentality that went into it. Also, Vietnam happens, and changes the perception of the Americans among the younger Germans from "nation of democracy, showing us how it's done, and they have rock'n roll, too" to "imperialists". Then young activist Beate Klarsfeld slaps Chancellor Kiesinger (former NSDAP member) in public. Then Germany votes for the first time since the Weimar Republic a Social Democrat Chancellor into office, who governs in a coalition with a small party of moderates, which means this is the first German goverment ever where no coalition member is a conservative of any calibre. And that's when the 70s start. So yes. Big, big social changes and mentality changes and challenging of previous certainties.
Yes. Yes, it is. I didn't know that Joseph was going down that road, though it makes perfect sense.
When your role model is, among so many other things, a famous wit who doesn't care whose feelings he hurts, and you think he's the coolest....
Ha! Go MT.
My reaction precisely. So do we think she did read Voltaire's trashy tell all in her spare time, did one of the Austrian enovys or spies report the quip in the early 1750s, or was that just coincidence?
Re: Messages from the Empress
When your role model is, among so many other things, a famous wit who doesn't care whose feelings he hurts, and you think he's the coolest....
Yup. And yeah, we've seen people complaining about this trait of Fritz's since at least the 1730s, maybe the 1720s.
So do we think she did read Voltaire's trashy tell all in her spare time
Well, the memoirs weren't published until 1784 (
Re: Messages from the Empress
Yup. And yeah, we've seen people complaining about this trait of Fritz's since at least the 1730s, maybe the 1720s.
I meant to say when in the other post you reported young Fritz having a go at Gundling as well instead of seeing him as a fellow victim: I think what happened is a classic case of Fritz (and for that matter, Wilhelmine, in a slightly lesser degree but still) developing sarcasm and humor as a defense mechanism. And also because they enjoy it, of course, but it's still something that happened under pressure and became a weapon.
Now, on the one hand they grew up in an abuse situation. (Several of them.) But on the other, they're also near the top of the social order in their world, and once Fritz gets to the top, he never, ever seems to grasp there's a difference between punching up and punching down as far as humor is concerned. Not least because if you're King and you're not talking about your fellow monarchs, you're always punching down. Voltaire is a bit of an exception in that Fritz certainly sees him as the superior writer and wit, and Voltaire himself certainly doesn't see himself as lower in any type of hierarchy, but when things go from bad to worse, it's still Fritz who has the power to burn Voltaire's writings (twice) and get him arrested in neutral territory. After that, I doubt any intellectual would have dared to seriously argue with Fritz.
(Gottsched excepted. You were a brave man, Gottsched.)
But to go back to Crown Prince Fritz: it would have been great if he'd felt some empathy with the non family member who'd become his father's other favourite punching bag. But I didn't really expect it. The odds were too much staked against poor Gundling here: German scholar, FW made him President of the Academy precisely to mock it, not to encourage the arts, FW keeps him around all the time, and lastly, he's the one person FW will even approve young Fritz mocking. I'm so sorry, Gundling. Having a street named after you in Potsdam these days is no compensation for what must have been a hellish life, though I hope Stade and the others were right and you managed to carve out some safe private space with your wife.
What was true for King Fritz is of course doubly true for Archduke and then Emperor Joseph, who outranks even other monarchs at least in theory: any joke at someone else's expense is by necessity punching down. Relieving pressure via humor is something that's understandable on the one hand, but on the other given his social situation just not possible in a way that doesn't end up in him hurting people who can't talk back. And I think that's why visitors like De Lyunes put such an emphasis on MT being "gracious to everyone" however she feels about them in their reports. It sounds like a pretty meaningless social courtesy but in this kind of world, it's really not.
Re: Messages from the Empress
once Fritz gets to the top, he never, ever seems to grasp there's a difference between punching up and punching down as far as humor is concerned.
I agree completely. The humor/sarcasm, like so many other things Fritz does, is quite clearly a defense mechanism that he never got rid of. And no, I wouldn't expect it either, not from him.
One thing that I'm pretty sure of about Fritz is that he continued feeling threatened and in need of weapons long after the reason for feeling so threatened was gone. This is basic trauma psychology. And that's part of why he kept breaking out the weapons he'd developed in childhood for the rest of his life. Yes, part of it is because being witty is fun, and partly it's just a knee-jerk habit at this point, and he was unable to grasp that this is not a good thing to do, but people in general have an incredibly difficult time letting go of whatever got them through a crisis, even when they have self-awareness that this is hurting more than helping in the current situation, far more self-awareness than he had. And it so happens that what got Fritz through his crisis was attacking. And he remains a pro-active and reactive attacker for the rest of his life, in every domain of his life.
I'm so sorry, Gundling. Having a street named after you in Potsdam these days is no compensation for what must have been a hellish life, though I hope Stade and the others were right and you managed to carve out some safe private space with your wife.
This.
It sounds like a pretty meaningless social courtesy but in this kind of world, it's really not.
Yes. When I moved from student to instructor, there was a bit of a lag before I discovered that I *could not* engage in the same kind of banter with my own students that I could with my fellow students. And I still wish I could track down the students who fell into that lag and apologize! Had I been an absolute monarch at the very top of the hierarchy, there's a good chance I never would have figured this out.
Re: Messages from the Empress
Voltaire is a bit of an exception in that Fritz certainly sees him as the superior writer and wit, and Voltaire himself certainly doesn't see himself as lower in any type of hierarchy, but when things go from bad to worse, it's still Fritz who has the power to burn Voltaire's writings (twice) and get him arrested in neutral territory.
Voltaire: Eh, Fritz may be able to get me arrested, but I'm still superior to him, because I am ~Voltaire~ and he is only Fritz. The only person who I might concede might be above me is Émilie, and even she didn't work as ~hard~ as I did, clearly, because my stuff is much more interesting than hers. Like, who really cares about fire, anyway? Not me!
Poor Gundling :(
It sounds like a pretty meaningless social courtesy but in this kind of world, it's really not.
MT <3333333 (And the fact that she grew up relatively un-traumatized!)
Re: Messages from the Empress
Re: Messages from the Empress
Re: Messages from the Empress
Ahahahaha, of course you don't know anyone like that who might be a bad example to your son and you're just, you know, talking about this as a general character flaw, MT!
I imagine ViennaJoe squirmed to get it -- but aside from the corrections it's kind of a lovely mother-son letter, though <3
It is this which I will never agree to and never give my blessing to, for everything is at stake.
Man, this whole letter! <3 MT is as sharp as a tack, isn't she.
I confess my weakness: this writing in his own hand when he's surrounded by 40 000 men, (...) sounding like a theatre king or theatre despot has amused me.
HAHAHAHA I love MT soooo much. I think the most hilarious and lovely part to me is that she calls it a weakness -- anyone less gracious *cough*Fritz*cough* would just be pointing and laughing.
*refreshes page about Stollberg-Rilinger*
*MT bio still not published in translation*