cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 12

To round off Jessen: he has of course the MT to Joseph quote I worked into my Fritz & MT fanfiction, from 14th Sepember 1766 ("But has this hero who won himself such fame, has this conqueror a single friend? Doesn't he have to distrust the entire world? What kind of life is this, that has humanity banished out of it?").

It also has Joseph's report on his encounter with Fritz in Neisse, wherein he tries to demonstrate to Mom how he's kept his cool, because he's the rational fanboy. The letter is dated August 29th, 1769:

Dear Mother, at last you shall have some disconnected news about my strange journey to Neisse. (...) The King has overwhelmed us with politeness and friendliness. He's a genius and a man who talks wonderfully well, but he doesn't say a word which does not betray the rascal in him. I do believe he wants peace, not out of the goodness of his heart but because he recognizes that he can't win anything by going to war. I've asked him about all kind of things. (...) But I can't possibly tell you all, since we were in conversation for at least sixteen hours per day with each other. (...) Anyway, everything showed his fear of Russia's power, which he also wants to transmit to us. Regarding religion, he was very restrained, even with malicious zingers. He talked with the greatest respect about you, and with much respect of Kaunitz.

(Kaunitz is MT's and later Joseph's first minister.)

Volz, bw, has a more thorough version of Joseph's letter in his "Gespräche mit Friedrich dem Großen", but the Jessen edition is fairly representative for what he says. I must say, all the "I totally saw through Fritz, Mom!...during the sixteen hours per day we talked to each other" cracks me up to no end. (I mean. 16 hours? Per day?)

Incidentally, Fritz had brought Heinrich along on this first trip, but Joseph, unsurprisingly, had only eyes for Fritz. Something else the original documents in Jessen and Volz tell me is that in order to be polite, Fritz and his entourage wore the Austrian white uniforms "to spare the Austrians the sight of the Prussian blue (they) have encountered on the field so often", as one of the Austrian delegation was told, who in his letter snarked, you know, we could have born the sight, and also it wouldn't have showcased the King's tobacco snuff as much as the white uniform did.

BTW, MT also took some tobacco, though not as much as Fritz did. She does, however, mention it in a letter to a female friend as something good for keeping you awake and alert and sends snuff box with the stuff in it. Considering her working schedule had similar hours to Fritz' schedule, this is not surprising. It's a drug for sleepless workoholics, alright. (Neither of them considered smoking it, though.)

And here's the letter I already mentioned to Heinrich. The treaty of the First Partitioning of Poland is dated to March 4th, 1772. On June 12th, Fritz is on a tour through his newly aquired territories to inspect them and writes to Heinrich (sorry about the one somewhat antisemitic crack):

I have seen this Prussia which I basically received from your hand. It is a very good and advantageous aquisition, both for the political position of the state and for our finances. However, in order not to awake too much jealousy I'm telling everyone who wants to hear it that I have only observed sand, fir trees, bracken and Jews on my journey. In any case, this land will cause me a lot of work, too, for I believe Canada to be as civilized as Pommerellen; no order, no districts. The towns are in a pitiable state. Kulm, for example, is supposed to have eighthundred houses, but there are only a hundred standing. (...) As far as the army is concerned, I've found the entire cavalry of this area to be as good as hours. Regarding the infanty, the garnison regiments of the province equal the field regiments. The field regiments here are larger than those of Berlin. But there will have to be some personnel changes for the staff offficers and the subaltern officers. The great mistake in the drilling of the troops consists in them loading badly, don't fall into step easily and don't aim too well. But that can be practiced during the following year, and God willing, the entire army will be on the same level and equally organized next year.

"This Prussia which I basically received from your hand" becomes of course "my property, which I negotiated because I'm just that awesome" later on.

(Fritz: You don't think Heinrich would have gotten anything from anyone if I weren't awesome, do you?
Heinrich: You don't think you'd have gotten anything other than pissing everone else off AGAIN if you' been the one to negotiate, do you?)

Something Mildred alluded to is that MT on the one hand thought this entire Poland partitioning was shameless robbery, which it was, but on the other wanted/accepted her share, which she did. There is a famous but apocryphal quip by Fritz which gets quoted on this a lot, but no one has ever been able to find it in any of his letters or even in his described conversations in other people's memoirs, so biographers were reluctantly forced to admit that it was probably invented after the fact by other people but sounded so much like something he would have said that it stuck. In several variations, this apocryphal quote goes "she cried, and the more she cried, the more she took".

Jessen does have a letter from MT on the subject to one of her younger sons, Ferdinand (yes, she had a Ferdinand, too), dated September 12th 1772:

You will see the entire miserable development of this matter. I have refused it for a long time! Only the blows after blows in the forms of the Turks attacking, the lack of a prospect of getting support from France or England in this, the likelihood of having to conduct a war against both Russia and Prussia otherwise, misery, famine and sickness in my countries forced me to accept these bloody proposals, which throw a shadow over my entire rule. God will make me face my responsibility for this in the other world. I must admit to you that I cannot get over this matter, it lies heavily on my heart, haunts me and poisons my already sad days. I must stop writing about this in order not to get even more upset and not to sink into the blackest melancholia.

I.e. she did rationalize and excuse herself for participating, but it never really worked for her. I already quoted her letter to Joseph on the War of the Bavarian Succession by the time this decade ended, but what Jessen's collection of documents also tell me is that the official peace between Prussia and Austria was made on May 13th 1779, which was MT's birthday.

Jessen also quotes not one but two poems by Matthias Claudius. One is the "Sie machte Frieden" poem I already quoted and translated to you many a post ago after MT's death. The other was written after the war had ended instead of evolving into another 7 Years War, which was what everyone, including MT had been afraid of, and this one was new to me. It goes thusly:

Die Kaiserin und Friederich
Nach manchem Kampf und Siege
Entzweiten endlich aber sich
Und rüsteten zum Kriege

Und zogen mutig aus ins Feld
Und hatten stolze Heere,
Schier zu erfechten eine Welt
Und » Heldenruhm und Ehre « .

Da fühlten beide groß und gut
Die Menschenvater -Würde,
Und wieviel Elend , wieviel Blut
Der Krieg noch kosten würde,

Und dachten , wie doch alles gar
Vergänglich sei hienieden ,
Und sahen an ihr graues Haar . . .
Und machten wieder Frieden .

(The Empress and Friedrich/After many a fight and victory/were at odds again/and armed themselves for war/ They bravely went into the field/and had proud armies/to fight for a world/ and for 'heroic courage and honor'./ Then, both felt good and great/the dignity of being a parent to human kind/and how much misery, how much blood/this war would cost,/ and thought of how everything/was mortal on this plain/and looked at each their own grey hair.../and made peace again.)

Fritz not reading any German literature, I doubt he ever saw it, but MT might have. To repeat the Claudius poem after her death again, since it's very short:

Sie machte Frieden ! Das ist mein Gedicht.
War ihres Volkes Lust und ihres Volkes Segen
Und ging getrost und voller Zuversicht
Dem Tod als ihrem Freund entgegen .
Ein Welteroberer kann das nicht.
Sie machte Frieden !Dasist mein Gedicht.

ETA: And I have made my own rhyming, not prose translation! *shares wit pride*

This is my poem: she made peace!
She was her people's blessing and delight,
went confident, comforted and at ease
To face her death. Her death, and not a fight.
No conqueror of the world can have such release.
This is my poem: she made peace!

Jessen has also the letter from Fritz - to D'Alembert, as it turns out, dated January 6th 1781 (MT having died in November 1780) which has the famous "I was never her enemy" quote in it. Writes he:

And yet, I have regretted the death of the Empress-Queen: she brought honor to her throne and sex; I have gone to war with her, but I was never her enemy. Regarding the Emperor, the son of this great woman: I know him personally; he seemed too enlightened to me to me to make overhasty steps; I esteem him and do not fear him. (...) To give you a proof of just how calmly minded I am, I include a little brochure which aims at showing the flaws of German literature and to explain the means by which it can improve. You will mock the care I'm taking to teach a people which until now has been good at nothing but eat, drink, make love and make war to have at least a little understanding of taste and Attic salt. But a man wants to be useful; often a word falls on fertile soil and bears unexpected fruit.

Yep, he announces his trashing of (unread by him) German literature in the same letter. (Also, Fritz, I thought Joseph "the son of this great woman" was the coming menace of Europe? That's what you've told all your other correspondants, at least.) And Jessen, bless, has the passage in "De La Literature Allemande" which is specifically aimed at Goethe (and Shakespeare, while he's at it). ("Götz von Berlichingen" had been Goethe's first play, and it's indeed blatantly Shakespeare-inspired. It's also to this day fun for 12 years old pupils for containing the line "kiss my ass!") ("Und er sage seinem Herren, er könne mich am Arsche lecken!")

Behold this glorious proof of just how calmly minded Fritz is:

To convince yourself of the utter lack of taste that to this day rules in Germany, you only have to go to the theatre. That's where you see the despicable plays by Shakespeare produced in the German language, see the entire audience swoon at hearing these ridiculous farces which are worthy of a Canadian savage. I call them thus because they go against every rule of theatre. These rules are not random! They are to be found in Aristotle's poetics. There, the unity of time, place and action are prescribed. But the English plays provide an action which takes place through years. Where's the plausibility there? Baggage carriers and grave diggers show up and hold speeches that suit their stations; and then, princes and Queens appear. This strange brewery of the elevated and the low, of slapstick and tragedy is supposed to please and touch people? One may forgive Shakespare such odd abberations; for the birth of the arts was never the time of their maturity. But now, a "Götz von Berlichingen" appears on the stage, a disgusting imitation of those terrible English plays, and the audience applauds and demands with enthusiasm more of these tasteless rubbish. I know, you can't argue about taste. But allow me to tell you one thing: who enjoys acrobats and puppets just as much as the tragedies of Racine just wants to pass time. He prefers something which appeals to his eyes to something which appeals to the mind and to the heart!

German writers of the day: *headdesk, as described in another entry*

(Herder: Go polish your rusty armor, old man. Si tacuisses, philosphus mansisses.)

Jessen also quotes a letter from Goethe to a buddy of his, Merck, like him and most Germans that age a (in Merck's case now former) Fritz fanboy, who asked "OMG, have read what Fritz wrote):

No one should have been surprised by the pamplet of the old King if one knew him for who he actually is. If the audience hears of a hero who has done great deeds, it forms him convenient to the common idea, subtle, high-minded and well educated; in the same way, one assumes a man who otherwise has done much to posses clarity and precision of the mind. One imagines him without bias and actually well informed and educated. This is what has happened with the King; but just as he has done great deeds in his shabby blue uniform and his humpbacked figure, he has forced the events of history by his stubborn, prejudiced and unteachable imagination.

I.e. he could not have done so with with a balanced and fair mindset. Elaborating further on the argument that the very thing which made Fritz great was his imperfection, Goethe replies to yet another correspondant asking him "OMG, have you read that?!?".

There's nothing strange to me about the King mentioning my play unfavourably. A powerful man who rules over thousands with a sceptre of iron, has to find the creation of a free and cheeky youth unbearable. Besides, a tolerant taste can't be the distinguishing characteristic of a King, and would not, had he possessed it, have allowed him to make a great name for himself; I rather think that the great and noble live by exclusivity.

Edited 2020-02-29 12:30 (UTC)

I must say, all the "I totally saw through Fritz, Mom!...during the sixteen hours per day we talked to each other" cracks me up to no end. (I mean. 16 hours? Per day?)

That jumped out at me too! Haha, Joseph.

MT: You realize any mother would see right through this?

ViennaJoe: Mooom! You should know all about being a sleepless workaholic. Of course we talked for sixteen hours per day! It was very important for, um, foreign affairs, and the well-being of our countries, and stuff. Look, I'm very dedicated to my job!

Volz, bw, has a more thorough version of Joseph's letter in his "Gespräche mit Friedrich dem Großen"

Oh, nice, I'm glad that turned out to have useful material.

in order to be polite, Fritz and his entourage wore the Austrian white uniforms "to spare the Austrians the sight of the Prussian blue (they) have encountered on the field so often", as one of the Austrian delegation was told, who in his letter snarked, you know, we could have born the sight, and also it wouldn't have showcased the King's tobacco snuff as much as the white uniform did.

Everything about this makes me laugh so hard, from Fritz's arrogance to the Austrian snark. I kind of suspect the Austrian might be underestimating the extent to which the snuff is impossible to miss on any uniform, given the sheer number of other reports we have throughout the decades that read "I saw the King for five minutes from a distance, and the number one thing I noticed was that he was covered in snuff from head to toe." Maybe it's *more* visible on white, I don't know how dark 18C Spanish snuff was, but I suspect trying not to showcase it was a lost cause. Definitely not worth giving up that amazingly arrogant move, either way. ILU, problematic fave. :P

(Fritz: You don't think Heinrich would have gotten anything from anyone if I weren't awesome, do you?
Heinrich: You don't think you'd have gotten anything other than pissing everone else off AGAIN if you' been the one to negotiate, do you?)

LOL. They both have a point, I think? But far be it from either of them to acknowledge this.

There is a famous but apocryphal quip by Fritz which gets quoted on this a lot, but no one has ever been able to find it in any of his letters or even in his described conversations in other people's memoirs, so biographers were reluctantly forced to admit that it was probably invented after the fact by other people but sounded so much like something he would have said that it stuck.

Aww, I didn't know it was apocryphal! That's too bad. I guess when you're known for wit, you accumulate quotes that sound witty. Churchill, Wilde, and Twain know all about this.

ETA: And I have made my own rhyming, not prose translation! *shares wit pride*

*applauds*

Elaborating further on the argument that the very thing which made Fritz great was his imperfection

I definitely think Goethe's onto something there. Fritz's inability to back down was his single most salient trait, and it manifested in good, bad, and making-a-name-for-himself ways. His whole life is a very interesting intersection of innate personality, environment, and trauma. And while I think he might have been expansionist without the trauma, and he always would have preferred French, I do suspect some of his need to attack German while never ever reading it came from FW bludgeoning him with German for so long. (

cahn, as one small example, he was only allowed to speak German and people were only allowed to speak German to him at Küstrin.) I think hating German, as opposed to loving French, became part of his fight for his identity, long after FW was gone and he'd lost sight of the reason for the fight.

Oh absolutely. (I'm also reminded of Fontane's needling in FW's direction when he reports Heinrich pretending not to speak German at all in his Rheinsberg chapter and adds snarkily this was undoubtedly the result of an education "which put all the emphasis on the German and vilified the French".) If FW - whose own German was clumsy, it being a second language to him as well - hadn't made such a point of ramming it down the throat of his oldest son (and of the entire family, but especially Fritz) - it wouldn't have become such an identity question. BTW, Volz' "Conversations" contain an amusing passage about one of several encounters between Fritz and Gottsched: about the German language, as told by Nicolai, who was present:

Among other things they talked about the qualities of the German language. The King described it as rough, clusmy, etc., and Gottsched of course defended the language he'd written in praise of, and this with many exclamations. The King disregarded this and took more and more from the German language until he finally said: it had so many dislikeable sounds which made it ill suited to eloquence and poetry. For example, said the King, a rival was called "Nebenbuhler", what a fatal sound "buhler" has! This hre repeated a couple of times, and emphasized the "uh".

Gottsched: But your majesty, it sounds exactly like "Boule"! (Which it does, btw.)

The King who was disconcerted by this reply ignored it and continued: "And the German consonsants! My ears always hurt whenever I listen to German names; there's so much Kah and Peh all the time! (He put the emphasis on K and P.) Knap - Knip - Klotz - Krock! His own name, how hard! Gottsched! Five consonants - tsscchhh - what a sound! The German language is simply rough, and what is soft and pleasing can't be pronounced as agreeable in it as it can in other languages!

Gottsched: Begging your majesty's pardon. The most beautiful and most tender passion humanity has to offer we Germans all "Liebe", whereas the French call it - "Amour!" Now you can imagine that he, too, put the emphasis on the "our". And if you know how rough and screaming Gottsched's voice could get, you can imagine how awful he managed to make the u and the r sound in his mouth.

(Fritz seems to have carried a grudge for not winning that argument, since he calls Gottsched pedantic and a couple of other unflattering things to Catt.)

All this is always worth keeping in mind when realising how big a concession on Fritz' part it was to keep talking and corresponding in German with Fredersdorf instead of demanding that Fredersdorf had to learn French. Liebe indeed.

White uniforms: I only regret I didn't know this detail when writing my Yuletide AU section 4! Because of course MT would have noticed at once.

If FW - whose own German was clumsy, it being a second language to him as well - hadn't made such a point of ramming it down the throat of his oldest son (and of the entire family, but especially Fritz) - it wouldn't have become such an identity question.

To paraphrase a very witty person, "You broke it, FW, you bought it."

Thank you for sharing that anecdote. Fritz is just amazingly incapable of reason on this subject.

All this is always worth keeping in mind when realising how big a concession on Fritz' part it was to keep talking and corresponding in German with Fredersdorf instead of demanding that Fredersdorf had to learn French. Liebe indeed.

Indeed. <3 It is surprising on both Fritz's and Fredersdorf's side that the latter never picked up enough French for them to communicate in (or that he hid it really well :P).

White uniforms: I only regret I didn't know this detail when writing my Yuletide AU section 4! Because of course MT would have noticed at once.

I regret that too! It's amazing how far we progress each month.

(Next Yuletide is going to be so much more informed. :D)

Indeed. <3 It is surprising on both Fritz's and Fredersdorf's side that the latter never picked up enough French for them to communicate in (or that he hid it really well :P).

As to what motivated Fredersdorf to either not learn French or pretend he didn't: my current guess it had to do with a) maintaining his identity, his sense of self, and b) was a smart move not to look inferior vis a vis the Algarottis of Fritz' circle.

re: b) no matter how well he was or would have been able to learn French as an adult (who had a lot of other things to do which he couldn't delegate!), he would never have been able to speak and write French on a level approaching that of Fritz' intellectual friends. He'd have sounded clumsy and foolish next to them, and he knew this meant volunteering for humiliation and ridicule at worst and silent disappointment at best. I mean, look at Fritz going on about AW's educational deficits in the late 30s, and Voltaire making that "didn't learn to read or write" crack. And AW might have been lagging behind in his education, but he did get one as a prince from early childhood onwards. Frederdorf would just not have been able to catch up on any Fritz satisfying level. Meanwhile, he could be extremely competent at the things he did do, and Fritz respected that.

and a) So much of his life was about Fritz that I think insisting on German as their language was something like insisting on alchemy, and his own medication, despite Fritz constantly telling him otherwise. It was a way of of saying "This is me, not you; I love you, but I exist apart from you". Maintaining that core of self probably allowed him to remain sane and have no nervous breakdowns. (As opposed to ruining his physical health.)

And again, that Fritz accepted the language instead of doing a "my way or no way" here remains as powerful a testimony as the open tenderness of those letters.

Frederdorf would just not have been able to catch up on any Fritz satisfying level.

This is all very true. He was never going to be a native speaker, and while he might well get up to enough proficiency to equal or surpass Fritz's awkward German, the process of getting there in that environment would have been painful, good point, and the end result wasn't going to be worth walking across those coals.

So much of his life was about Fritz that I think insisting on German as their language was something like insisting on alchemy, and his own medication, despite Fritz constantly telling him otherwise. It was a way of of saying "This is me, not you; I love you, but I exist apart from you". Maintaining that core of self probably allowed him to remain sane and have no nervous breakdowns.

I like this a lot. Like that quote

cahn found,

Good counterpoint requires two qualities: (1) a meaningful or harmonious relationship between the lines, and (2) some degree of independence or individuality within the lines themselves.

And not only asserting his identity, but knowing that Fritz loved him enough to accept communicating in German with him, not just to conduct business like the rest of his German communications, but to carry on a close personal relationship.

And again, that Fritz accepted the language instead of doing a "my way or no way" here remains as powerful a testimony as the open tenderness of those letters.

Indeed. They're such a good ship. <3 I share

cahn's joy that we've found no evidence for that unsourced embezzlement allegation.

Hard same! Which is why I also am doubtful - unless someone finally gives us a direct citation like "see letter of Prussian official X/foreign envoy Y" - re: the handsome hussar story. On various levels and both sides. I mean, Fritz writes some of the most tender letters not in the first flush of infatuation (which we have zilch documents on, because Küstrin and Neuruppin), but years, even decades later. This does not sound like someone who'd have considered exchanging Fredersdorf for a random handsome guy at some point in the Silesian Wars. (And it would have had to be the Silesian wars, given when Fredersdorf died.) Also, since some of the earliest Fredersdorf letters are from the Silesian wars, I took this to mean Federsdorf wasn't with Fritz in the field to begin with, he was in Berlin keeping an eye on things from there, so how could he have been refused entry to the royal tent?

Now, of course, jealousy doesn't have to be rational and triggered by an actual cause. More often than not, it probably isn't. So it's entirely possible Fredersdorf thought he might get replaced by Mr. Handsome (if there is any basis to the story). At least replaced in the emotional sense, not in the professional, given the sheer number of tasks Fritz kept giving him. But somehow I can't equate someone this insecure about his status in Fritz' life with someone who has the confidence to stick with the German, keep alchemy as a hobby and keeps consulting non-Fritz approved doctors.

In conclusion: contemporary source, please, or I don't buy it.

) Also, since some of the earliest Fredersdorf letters are from the Silesian wars, I took this to mean Federsdorf wasn't with Fritz in the field to begin with, he was in Berlin keeping an eye on things from there, so how could he have been refused entry to the royal tent?

I have been wondering the same thing. We don't have a thorough enough correspondence to be certain that Fredersdorf was *never* in the field with him, but I'm not aware of any evidence to corroborate the claim that he was, whereas we do have letters from Fritz in the field to Fredersdorf in Berlin, so it's quite likely Fredersdorf was doing civilian stuff there the whole time.

So it's entirely possible Fredersdorf thought he might get replaced by Mr. Handsome (if there is any basis to the story).

I mean, IF there's any basis to this at all, this entire story might have grown out of Fritz wanting casual sex with random hussar and wanting some privacy for it. (If he was into having sex with Fredersdorf, I doubt it was entirely an exclusive relationship on his side.) Gossip could take it from there. But I don't see Fredersdorf murdering or driving someone to suicide over it, for the reasons you mention as well as others. I'm willing to bet he knows Fritz well enough to know how to keep himself indispensable over some pretty face.

And again; I question whether Fredersdorf was in the field or Fritz was into casual sex with his men. Post-Fredersdorf Glasow maybe? But there is a distinct lack of evidence for Handsome Hussar. (I also don't buy Lehndorff's story that Fredersdorf stepped down out of jealousy over Glasow, seriously.)

~~Pics~~ Documents or it didn't happen. :P

I also don't buy Lehndorff's story that Fredersdorf stepped down out of jealousy over Glasow, seriously.

I think our Lehndorff made the same mistake many people do, to use their own emotional spectrum and likely reactions as a basis to draw conclusions from. Don't forget, as he admits in his annotation to his youthful entries which he made decades later, he was ragingly jealous of anyone Heinrich favoured as a young man. So he was likely to assume this was how Fredersdorf must have felt about someone like Glasow.

Agree 100%. And Fredersdorf wasn't in Lehndorff's position: he *was* the secure favorite and always had been. I think he was in a position to be chill about any wandering eye Fritz might have had. And after years of bad health (we've seen their letters) and his impending death, which Lehndorff couldn't have known about when he wrote that entry, I don't think Fredersdorf *needed* a reason to step down beyond "I literally cannot do this job any more, no matter how hard I try. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak."

I agree with all this too!

That makes so much sense. <3

Fritz/Fredersdorf is my Fritz OTP, and I think in a lot of ways it's because Fredersdorf could maintain his sense of self but still be what Fritz needed. And as you and mildred have said in the past, it makes sense that a lot of this worked because he was not nobility.

You know, Fritz/Fredersdorf absolutely fits the pattern of what's normally my OTP and totally should be my OTP in this fandom. Fritz/Katte fits the pattern of my usual NOTPs. And yet!

I try very hard to get more excited about Fritz/Fredersdorf, because it should be right up my alley, but so far, I like it but don't love it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

it's because Fredersdorf could maintain his sense of self but still be what Fritz needed.

I still think your counterpoint quote was THE BEST.

Edited 2020-03-03 23:02 (UTC)

Gottsched: But your majesty, it sounds exactly like "Boule"! (Which it does, btw.)

HAHAHAHAHA

And if you know how rough and screaming Gottsched's voice could get, you can imagine how awful he managed to make the u and the r sound in his mouth.

Heeeee. Gottsched, you are my hero.

White uniforms: I only regret I didn't know this detail when writing my Yuletide AU section 4! Because of course MT would have noticed at once.

I mean, if you wanted to sneak over and put it in, I wouldn't mind :P :) But yeah, she would have definitely noticed and either thought or said something snarky :D

If I can come up with a suitably snarky thought or dialogue, I shall insert it, then.

Gottsched would be gratified to be anyone's hero.Like Fritz, he had the misfortune to outlive his glory days. He was essential as a reformer of German theatre and as a promoter of the German language for artistic uses, but he was also totally married to the idea of the Aristotelian three unities and the French drama as the highest form of art. When duking it out with the slightly younger Lessing (currently employed by Fritz' sister Charlotte as librarian) who thought that these rules were constraining and strangling the life out of drama, had to go, and hooray for the British model to follow instead, he lost as far as the new crop of writers was concerned, and he never reconciled himself to the fact. Since the next crop of writers were the highlights of German literature, this meant he had the reputation of a dusty old pedant for at least a century before it swung back to "modern for his time, he just outlived it".

There is a famous but apocryphal quip by Fritz which gets quoted on this a lot, but no one has ever been able to find it in any of his letters or even in his described conversations in other people's memoirs, so biographers were reluctantly forced to admit that it was probably invented after the fact by other people but sounded so much like something he would have said that it stuck.

Just dropping in to note that the origins of this quote were investigated by Jürgen Luh here. To sum it up, "she cried but she took" or variations thereof are basically a summary of what French Ambassador Prince Louis de Rohan wrote about MT in a 1772 dispatch. Many years later a certain Maletzki, an editorial secretary of the "Communist International" newspaper and fabricator of various Fritz related quotes, published in 1922 that "Friedrich II once said(...) 'she cried but she took'". And this was picked up by Egon Friedell in 1928 in his extremely successful "Cultural History of Modern Times" book series, and was accepted by historians for many years from then on.

All hail

gambitten!

Thank you so much for linking that article! It was new to me, and not only does it provide us with a great summary of how that quote came into existence, but Luh actually provides me at last with the source for another, actual Fritz quote about MT, "Das apostolische Rabenaas". (It's from a letter to the Marquis D'Argens, and Luh provides a proper citation ( Friedrich der Große: Mein lieber Marquis! Sein Briefwechsel mit Jean-Baptiste d’Argens während des Siebenjährigen Krieges, hrsg. v. Hans Schumann, Zürich 1985, S. 134.).

Aha! The longer this salon continues, the more we uncover. I'm loving it.

That is really cool, thank you for the story behind that!

But I can't possibly tell you all, since we were in conversation for at least sixteen hours per day with each other.

Oh Joseph. :D
So curious as to what MT thought of this.

gambitten, do you have access to MT's letters?

for I believe Canada to be as civilized as Pommerellen

LOL!

"This Prussia which I basically received from your hand" becomes of course "my property, which I negotiated because I'm just that awesome" later on.

FRITZ! Poor Heinrich :P

And I have made my own rhyming, not prose translation!

This is really cool. I feel like translations that try to retain meter and rhyme and other language features really help me get what someone would feel reading it in the original, in a way that's hard for me when it's a straight translation made purely for word accuracy. Like this one, the way you preserve the alliteration with "confident, comforted," whereas I would never have noticed it in "ging getrost" otherwise.

(I've tried to make rhyming translations before and they are horribly difficult! So I really appreciate this and know it's not easy.) Thank you! <3

To give you a proof of just how calmly minded I am, I include a little brochure which aims at showing the flaws of German literature

OMG. You are so calmly minded, Fritz. Yeah, whatever you say.

see the entire audience swoon at hearing these ridiculous farces which are worthy of a Canadian savage.

Man, Fritz, you really have it in for Canada, don't you? LOL.

Besides, a tolerant taste can't be the distinguishing characteristic of a King, and would not, had he possessed it, have allowed him to make a great name for himself; I rather think that the great and noble live by exclusivity.

That's really a neat thing for Goethe to have said, especially as a reply to just having gotten his entire discipline trashed, hee.

Man, Fritz, you really have it in for Canada, don't you? LOL.

He does. Canada and the Iroquois are his go-to throughout his life for "the epitome of uncivilized." Much like we say "Timbuktu" to mean "so far away idek where it is or if it even exists" (which apparently Malians, understandably, don't appreciate).

That's really a neat thing for Goethe to have said, especially as a reply to just having gotten his entire discipline trashed, hee.

I can see why Goethe is BFFs with Carl August, Master of Chill (and son of good mom).

Man, Fritz, you really have it in for Canada, don't you? LOL.

What I thought. Not sure why Canada in particular, other than that the French and the Brits duking it out there was the overseas front of the 7 Years War, so he probably got some reports on that via Mitchell. But there was no tobacco imported from Canada, so I doubt he had much interest.

Thank you for the poetry translation appreciation, I am bit proud of it, I must confess, for those reasons.

What I thought. Not sure why Canada in particular, other than that the French and the Brits duking it out there was the overseas front of the 7 Years War, so he probably got some reports on that via Mitchell.

So Fritz was insulting people by comparing them to Iroquois at least as early as 1740, but in 1760, d'Argens sent him a French officer who had served in Canada (and couldn't go back to France because he's been kicked out for fighting a duel, which is why he went to Canada in the first place), and Fritz and d'Argens talk about how savage everything is in Canada, the Iroquois being cannibals, etc. So depending on how closely Fritz interacted with this officer, he may have had extra Eurocentric input on that terrible place called Canada. And either way, the exchange with d'Argens probably brought it front and center. Plus he is occasionally in his correspondence mentioning its fate in the 7 Years' War, so it's on his radar at least a little bit (despite being tobacco-less).

But there was no tobacco imported from Canada, so I doubt he had much interest.

LOL.

Thank you for the poetry translation appreciation, I am bit proud of it, I must confess, for those reasons.

I appreciate it in much the same way that you appreciate my OCR+translation interface: poetry is indistinguishable from magic to me!

Frederick the Great discussion post 12

He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters

Re: He said, she said, they said: on partitioning Poland and other matters