cahn | Frederick the Great discussion post 9

Right, I think we make quite a compelling case for the proposition. I mean, according to various sources, 18th century medical knowledge regarding gonorrhoea was still fairly limited, Boswell notwithstanding, and the telltale sign thereof (apart from raging gonococcal conjunctivitis, which would have been apparent to more people than just Fritz), apparent in 80% of male sufferers, was whitish, greenish or yellowish discharge from the urethra, often accompanied by pain during urination.

As such, unless Fritz was in the habit of shadowing his handsome pages and staring while they undressed or pissed under non-sexy or prelude-to-sex conditions (or was he? I mean, as you say, Marwitz was his type, and maybe Fritz has gotten paranoid enough to do due diligence before he pounced...), I’d say the fact Fritz discovered M’s STD at all, which (1) was not widely known at the time and (2) a horrified Heinrich later corroborates, suggests he discovered it under sexy circumstances — even if they don’t in fact do the deed; as you say Fritz doesn’t want to get sick. (I also hope he genuinely doesn’t want his brother to get sick, even though I totally see the jealousy as to H’s open sex life and the attendant mind games!)

you’re his sovereign, he pretty much has to give you whatever you want, but guess what, he’s with me because he wants to be, so which of us is really winning here?

Ahaha, also the fact of the rigmarole does seem to suggest a romantic history with Marwitz on the part of both brothers? I suppose Fritz might not be above keeping up a years-long pretense that Marwitz was his ex in order to wind up Heinrich, but it does seem a rather lengthy and elaborate charade for Fritz to engage in with someone who wasn’t also a romantic prospect. As you mention, witty pretties aren’t rare in Fritz’s court, and I’d suggest Fritz would need to have a better reason to keep this chap around than purely for the perverse pleasure of screwing with H’s head ...

it’s a matter of not giving up first

...er, okay. Someone needs to write this fic? With the added incesty/self-cesty overtones? And possibly I need to prompt it for Yule 2020.

You do need to prompt it. because I can't write sex. I can write subtext, without a problem, and I hope in a hot way, I enjoy reading erotic scenes written by people who have the gift of writing sex which doesn't read like a gymnastics manual, but I don't have it in me myself, alas.

Which is a particular shame in this case because:

With the added incesty/self-cesty overtones?

These are absolutely a thing in my head for them. I not so completely joked to Mildred and Cahn months ago that if you ever need a ship for hatesex in this fandom, Fritz/Heinrich would be it. (Clarifcation: as with Fritz/Voltaire, I don't believe anything actually happened in rl. But the emotional undertones and intensity are there for fanfiction to evolve, which fanfiction always does.) And the fact that they may have had sex with the same guy is a canonical starting point.

Also, because of the age difference - Heinrich is 4 when Katte dies! - and the fact that Fritz post-Küstrin was only rarely in Berlin until FW dies, it's worth pointing out he doesn't really get to know this particular brother until Heinrich is 14, and Fritz takes over his life. Err, education. But also life. This is when they start to interact, but due to Fritz being a very busy King and the Silesian wars, they don't really spent much time in physical proximity of each other until the later part of Silesia 2 when Heinrich joins Fritz in the field. And the Marwitz affair is when they first clash, which I don't think is so coincidentally when Heinrich is 19 and not a child anymore.

ETA: I'm not on Tumblr, but I google now and then, and this cracked me up.

Edited 2020-01-18 15:44 (UTC)

the gift of writing sex which doesn’t read like a gymnastics manual

So I’m someone who does foray into explicit ficwriting, hopefully in a non-gymnastics manual-esque way, and, in my humble view, (1) the more sex scenes one reads and writes, the better at it one gets; and (2) one can absolutely still write this hateship without explicit hatesex — I would totally eat it up with a spoon and I am sure others would also!

These are absolutely a thing in my head for them

I’m right here with you! I wish I could say it was because I’m a particularly sensitive individual, but everything about these two calls out for the hatesex! You know that if they’d actually leaned in to it, it might have made them happier? (Well, if it didn’t kill them first, that is.)

There’s a Fritz tumblr fandom? Of course there is. Such pretty (if historically inaccurate/optimistic, lol) art. My Mandarin is just about able to keep up with it; lmk if there’s anything the salon would like translated ;)

Since I have no Mandarin at all, I would be grateful.

Re: Tumblr fandom - yes, from what I can see. Months ago, Mildred linked us to this which first alerted me to it.

(ETA: that also summarized the Marwitz affair thusly.)

You know that if they’d actually leaned in to it, it might have made them happier? (Well, if it didn’t kill them first, that is.)

There's that risk. :) Otoh, however much or little active sexual practice Fritz had, Heinrich had a lot. And being the kind brother-annoying person who comes back from negotiating with Catherine the (first) partitioning of Poland unable to resist pointing out that he just got more territory for Prussia without a single dead Prussian than Fritz did in three Silesian wars? (Big brother was not amused.) He'd probably be equally unable not to use that, especially if it makes a point that Fritz isn't the best in everything.

Edited 2020-01-19 14:48 (UTC)

Hm, that tumblr seems to think Fritz lost out on Marwitz and thus pretended that they’d had a thing, and furthermore lied to H. that Marwitz had gonorrhoea, in order to take revenge on Heinrich as well as Marwitz. Which isn’t out of the realm of possibility, but does seem kind of extreme even for Fritz? Plus, I mean, if we figure that the gonorrhoea was real and kept quiet, doesn’t explain how Fritz knew about it, or the rigmarole? So I think our theory is still the better one.

The gist of the Mandarin tumblr comic is that our blue-eyed boy Heinrich says to his boo, “Marwitz, where shall we go to play today?”, and the eagle-eyed Fritz notices his brother’s hearts-in-eyes expression, and then swoops in to ask Marwitz if he’d finished his task in recording all the places they’d visited, and when M said he had, then commands that they start work on another book. I’m assuming the person on the right is Heinrich sans court wig, bc he’s crying; when asked (by Fritz?) why that’s so, he says, “Sire, you are indeed a cruel ruler.” There’s half a panel missing at the top of that final page — it looks like Heinrich (or Marwitz?) says something which can’t be read, and the response is, “Not if you want to break (your/his) rice bowl”, which in the context is a reference to placing a person’s gainful employment in jeopardy. Nothing that can’t be discerned from the art itself, ofc.

[Also: how rusty my Mandarin is! I’ve been exercising my French at its expense, it seems. Hopefully no embarrassing mistakes upstream, lol XD]

Well, tumblr and various biographers and various other people like to make up stories about what happened with the (male) Marwitz affair, but the truth is that we have those few one-sided letters from Fritz, the Lehndorff entry, and that's it. It's not really clear what happened.

Even when you said "the fact Fritz discovered M’s STD at all" earlier in this discussion, I made a note to add that it's a fact only in the context of the hypothesizing we're doing, not an actual historical fact. As far as I know, the only evidence we have for it is a letter from one guy (Fritz) who appears to be, in a very emotional and not at all objective way, warning his brother and probable rival away from him. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think that would stand up in court.

If Marwitz did have an STD, it's possible Fritz heard of it from a third party and not through firsthand knowledge, or that he deduced it from medical treatments he was receiving or what. (Fritz also did have spies, let's not forget.)

Thank you for the translation! If there are mistakes, I won't catch them, since my knowledge of this subject is at the level of...I know what Mandarin *is*? And that's about as far as it goes. :D

Edited (Splitting out the comments) 2020-01-19 16:42 (UTC)

Thank you for the translation! While I think Fritz is entirely capable of inventing STDs, it makes for a more dramatic reveal if Marwitz was, in fact, plagued by them. (It also makes Fritz' actions a bit more ambiguous, which is always more interesting.) Speaking of interesting, something like this makes me realize I prefer my Heinrich characterisation recalling that being Fritz' other self also involves having his own capacity for anger, pettiness and above all retaliation, as opposed to being written solely as a victim.

Agree with all this. Given Fritz's penchant for high-handedly keeping people away from SOs who turned out to be no damn good for them, it *is* interesting if Marwitz really does have an STD.

as opposed to being written solely as a victim

Agree. So much of fandom (and human thinking, really) tends to go black-and-white. All my faves are problematic because I like watching them be problematic. I'm still inordinately pleased with this review I got on one of my fics: "One thing that made this story so amazing was the combination of [character]'s conceit and his human decency; most fanfics choose one of his personality traits and play it up far more than it ever was in the actual book."

Fritz's penchant for high-handedly keeping people away from SOs who turned out to be no damn good for them

This must have been endlessly frustrating afterwards. :) Am imagining Heinrich in some nice Parisian salon during his second Paris visit, in a Corner with Gertrud Mara Schmeling and Barbarina (on holidays from Silesia) going "how did he know?!?"

(And then Barbarina makes a toast to Fritz, the bastard. He did pay handsomely, and damn but he had an eye for the bad 'uns.)

More seriously, yes, I'm always a fan of layers. Fritz on one level thinking that Marwitz might be fun but is Up To No Good and hence not a suitable love interest for Younger Brother, who is after all Fritz' responsibility (SD won't notice, that's for sure, and also Sainted Mom SHOULD not be bothered with such things), on another level makiing a power play because what the helll, Heinrich, poaching my pages? (How come this particular page is even interested in Heinrich instead of being solely devoted to his King, in whatever fashion?) And on a third level, there's the King who' ll write later that Princes of the Blood need to be put in their place every now and then, starting early on, so they don't get ideas. - All this in combination is way more interesting than Fritz simply being mean. Ditto for Heinrich one level simply being in love/lust with Marwitz, sure, whether or not this is his first love, but on another also making an powerplay (see earlier comment on Fritz not being the only one to come out of S2 with a case of "yay me!", especially at age 19, when wanting to rebell against the authority figure in your life or at least tweaking it a bit is practically a norm, and then dumping Marwitz (the first time around) because Fritz was right as much as because Heinrich feels betrayed is way more interesting than wide eyed victim H.

Here's to layers and ambiguity and messed upness on all levels with everyone involved, say I.

(Now I just have to figure out what Marwitz thinks he's getting out of all this.)

Am imagining Heinrich in some nice Parisian salon during his second Paris visit, in a Corner with Gertrud Mara Schmeling and Barbarina (on holidays from Silesia) going "how did he know?!?"

Love it!

(And then Barbarina makes a toast to Fritz, the bastard. He did pay handsomely, and damn but he had an eye for the bad 'uns.)

YES GOD YES. You bastard.

I like how you've got the only people here who could drink to Fritz paying handsomely. :P

Also, agree about multiple motives for everyone.

How come this particular page is even interested in Heinrich instead of being solely devoted to his King

"Haven't you heard I am der Einzige?!"

(Now I just have to figure out what Marwitz thinks he's getting out of all this.)

He read the Very Secret Manuscript on how to succeed at Fritz's court? :P Let's see, so far we're up to the following people starting family collections:

Katte (historical evidence)
Algarotti (inside joke)
Voltaire (historical evidence)
Marwitz - male (historical evidence)
Marwitz - female (inside joke*)
Trenck (historical evidence)
Glasow (inside joke)
Fredersdorf (CRACKFIC ONLY)

Am I missing anyone?

* Unless you believe "close friend" means "Wilhelmine/Marwitz action," in which case female Marwitz might be starting a collection at the Bayreuth court.

I like how you've got the only people here who could drink to Fritz paying handsomely. :P

True, everyone else would start to cough indignantly.

Apropos Money, true fax, in the annals of "Heinrich's boyfriends", subsection "Money" but also subsection "Power Play", there's this, in 1774:

Fritz: Well done you, with all the Polish partioning, and also, our recent teamwork with the Swedish relations was heartwarming. I'm thinking presents. I'm also thinking your current boyfriend Kaphengst sucks. Dump him.
Heinrich: ...What?
Fritz: Dump Kaphengst. He's no good, trust me. Also, it's not up to debate. I'm making it a royal order for you to dismiss him and to move him out of Rheinsberg. Along with 10 000 Friedrichsdor so you can pay him off.
(No really, he did make it an order. Supposedly in unprintable language.)
Heinrich:...
Heinrich: *doubles that money out of his own purse, buys Meseberg Palace (not far from Rheinsberg, today where Germany puts its longer staying state visitors in), dismisses Kaphengst officially from his services, gives him the Palace, visits as soon as Kaphengst has moved in.
Heinrich: *writes letter to Fritz* Mon cher frère, just to tell you Major Kaphengst has been dismissed from my services as ordered and has moved out of Rheinsberg. Meseberg's lovely, you should come. Cheerio, Henri.

(In non-crack-terms, he did write Fritz deliberately from Meseberg.)

(Flashforward: Kaphengst parties so hard in Meseberg that he quickly loses all Heinrich gave him, and then some, so Heinrich has to sell his paint collection to Catherine and cut down his own budget in order to cover for it, then finally calls it quits with Kaphengst.)

Fritz 'n Heinrich, simultanously: Why are you like this?

He read the Very Secret Manuscript on how to succeed at Fritz's court?

That must be it. After all, Marwitz happened in 1746, which meant both Voltaire/Ulrike (1743) and Trenck/Amalie had already happened, so the manuscript clearly was making the rounds.)

Am I missing anyone?

Not in Terms of "simultanously", but:

FW *post Ferdinand's birth*: Still has sexual urges.
SD: Post Fritz in Küstrin, no longer sleeping with FW.
FW: *hits on SD's Lady in waiting Johanna von Pannwitz via clumsy attempt to kiss her*
Johanna von Pannwitz: *slaps FW*
FW: I have been a bad Christian and will not do this again. Thank you for delivering me from temptation, God.

Johanna has a daughter named Sophie.
AW: *has many affairs*
AW: *spots new court Lady Sophie von Pannwitz and falls in love*
Sophie: I am a future diarist who will only confess to her Diary which is supposedly less fun than Lehndorff's but lasts right until the defeat of Napoleon that I do, in fact have feelings for you. More to the point, though, you're married, and I'm not intending to join your harem. Marriage or Nothing, your highness.
AW: Marriage! *asks Fritz for permission to divorce Louise*
Fritz: Nothing.
Sophie: Right. Then I'm marrying Count von Voß.
AW: *attends wedding but faints during same*
Fritz: In MY day, we only fainted when our beloved was killed in front of us, not married.

Sophie has a niece called Julie von Voß, who becomes lady-in-waiting to EC. (Which Sophie, outliving all Hohenzollern of her generation, also is at this point.)
FW2: Julie, you're hot!
Sophie: I'm seeing a possibility of saving the son of my secretly beloved AW from the claws of the commoner Wilhelmine Encke, as well as various one night stands. Julie, stay strong! Hold out for marriage!
Julie: Marriage or Nothing.
FW2: I'm kind of already married? Actually, I'm on my second wife, what with my first wife living in Stettin.

Second Mrs. FW2: Look, we've had seven kids by now. Several of which are sons. I'm seeing my royal duty as finished, plus you've grown kind of heavy. I'm giving you official permission to marry her morganatically.
Julie: Aunt Sophie, does that count?
Sophie: "Marriage at the left Hand", aka morganatic marriage is a legal finesse originally invented for royals who want to legitimize their Mistresses and kids from same without going through it officially. It means that once you die, your dead Body is a legitimate wife's Body, and your kids are all legitimate, not bastards. Otoh, while you live, you are not officially married to him and keep your old Name. The most prominent example of this was the Marquise de Maintenon, whom Louis XIV married morganatically.
Julie: So will I be morally in the clear?
Sophie: Only if you insist he stops fucking around. Literally. Especially the commoner Wilhelmine Encke.
Julie: FW2, I will be your morganatic wife if you stop fucking around!
FW2: *goes through ceremony with Julie in Charlottenburg*
Sophie: That could have been AW and me, if I'd thought of it then.

FW2: *actually stops fucking around, but keeps visiting Wilhelmine Encke; their sexual relationship had in fact already stopped pre Julie, but like Madame de Pompadour, she remained his closest confidant*
Julie: Does that count, Aunt Sophie?
Sophie: For God's sake. Try to to get pregnant, then asks him to send her away again.
Julie: *gets pregnant*
Julie: *dies of a combination of tuberculosis and childbirth*

FW2: *is heartbroken, and goes to the person who has been comforting him since he was twenty*

Wilhelmine Encke: *becomes Countess Lichtenau*

Sophie: Cruel Fate! Somehow I get the impression that morals don't pay.

That is...some family drama.

Fritz 'n Heinrich, simultanously: Why are you like this?

*spits out drink*

Break the cycle of abuse, Hohenzollerns! Anna Amalia managed it.

That must be it. After all, Marwitz happened in 1746, which meant both Voltaire/Ulrike (1743) and Trenck/Amalie had already happened, so the manuscript clearly was making the rounds.)

Exactly what I was thinking! Voltaire wouldn't waste any time on a thing like that.

SD: Post Fritz in Küstrin, no longer sleeping with FW.

Oh, man, I had missed the fact that the last kid was born a couple months before the escape attempt! I think I just went with "Wife is now 43, probably not especially fertile any more" and didn't think about how SD's all-time favorite kid has just been put through the worst abuse of his life. Wow.

FW: *hits on SD's Lady in waiting Johanna von Pannwitz via clumsy attempt

If this was after the escape attempt, I also completely missed the timing of "SD pissed off at FW; FW hits on lady-in-waiting."

I am a bad gossipy sensationalist. I can keep the Keiths and Rottembourgs straight, and that's about it. ;)

Fritz: In MY day, we only fainted when our beloved was killed in front of us, not married.

Oh, Fritz.

morganatic marriage is a legal finesse originally invented for royals who want to legitimize their Mistresses and kids from same without going through it officially. It means that once you die, your dead Body is a legitimate wife's Body, and your kids are all legitimate, not bastards. Otoh, while you live, you are not officially married to him and keep your old Name. The most prominent example of this was the Marquise de Maintenon, whom Louis XIV married morganatically.

My understanding is that one of the key points of a morganatic marriage is that the kids, while legitimate, are excluded from the succession.

Other possible example of a morganatic marriage: Elizaveta of Russia and Count Razumovsky, but I'm not sure where the most recent scholarship stands on the question of them being married. Back in my Russian history-studying days 20 years ago, my faint memories are that it was still an open question.

If this was after the escape attempt, I also completely missed the timing of "SD pissed off at FW; FW hits on lady-in-waiting."

The hitting on the Lady in Waiting wasn't in the same year; according to Wilhelmine, it happened when everyone went to Braunschweig for the Fritz and EC wedding. I just rechecked (in the German edition, the bowlderized English edition doesn't seem to have it), and it will please you to learn that in fact, FW got not slapped, but punched.

Pannewitz had followed the Queen to Braunschweig for my brother's wedding; the King met her on a small stairway leading to the Queen's room. She wanted to leave, he stopped her and wanted to embrace her by putting a hand on her breast. In her indignation, this lady punched him so violently in the face that blood streamed from his mouth and nose. He did not hold it against her afterwards and limited himself to calling her "the bad fairy".

Now, it could of course simply be that Ferdinand was the last child because SD got menopausal or just not that fertile anymore, but I think the timing for this unprecedented attempt by Mr. "No Mistresses! No Whores!" (as an opening paragraph in his political testament, no less) to break his record of marital fidelity after all would indicate a good chance that SD had ended sexuals relations for good by then, and there is an obvious reason. (Also a later less obvious one, except if you're SD. She was thrilled Fritz was out of custody and reinstated, of course, but she still hated the Braunschweig marriage for her son.)

My understanding is that one of the key points of a morganatic marriage is that the kids, while legitimate, are excluded from the succession.

Oh absolutely. (This, btw, doesn't mean some of them didn't make a play for the throne afterwards anyway. Some even succeeded. Manfred, son of Frederick II. the HRE Emperor, managed to, but to be fair he did so only after his non-morganatic brothers had died and he was the olded surviving son.) But the legitimacy itself meant a lot, given the legal stain on bastards in most countries.

Re: Tangentially...

mildred_of_midgard - 2020-01-21 17:14 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tangentially...

selenak - 2020-01-21 18:37 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tangentially...

mildred_of_midgard - 2020-01-21 23:31 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tangentially...

selenak - 2020-01-22 08:01 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tangentially...

cahn - 2020-01-23 06:16 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Tangentially...

mildred_of_midgard - 2020-01-26 00:41 (UTC) - Expand

(Now I just have to figure out what Marwitz thinks he's getting out of all this.)

So I'm reading all this at the same time as the Lehndorff/Fredersdorf comments, and I feel like the answer is obvious! --

Marwitz: I just want to say, none of this was my fault at all. When you're a page, it's not like anyone stops to tell you his name, you know? And there are a bunch of Hohenzollerns! I mean, there are like multiple princes and a King! At least Prince Ferdinand is quiet, so you can tell that one's him. But you get this short sarcastic guy who likes ordering people around and goes off on a moment's notice and, well. Can you really blame me for mixing up Prince Heinrich and King Friedrich a couple of times? I realized my mistake soon enough, of course, once we were in the bedroom. Heinrich was much more, mm, enthusiastic. Whereas King Fritz had me undress but didn't, you know, actually do anything. He watched me a lot and then kinda made a face and told me to put my clothes back on. Still not sure what was going on with that.

And yeah, there was that time that Voltaire came to visit and, well, he's pretty mouthy too. So to speak. What can I say, it's hard to keep all these mouthy guys straight. Or, well, you know.

ROTFLOL! You've solved the mystery! This must be the answer.

Headcanon!

hard to keep all these mouthy guys straight

Oblique attack tactics ain't exactly straight. :P

There is in fact a delightful Fritz fandom on tumblr, full of less than historically accurate fanart and cosplaying and whatnot, and I do occasionally link to things there. In addition to the "Keeping up with the Hohenzollerns" comics that

selenak linked to (there are others, just click around), these are some of my favorites:

Be a shame if something happened to it
Oblique attack tactics (Oh, iberiandoctor, you know about the epic rap battle involving Fritz, right?)
Bavarian Succession
Military defeats are homophobic.
Orgasm poem
Whoooo's a good girl?
Gru's plan meme
Should you fight them: Prussian monarch edition (Selena points out this is not really fair to F3)
Fritz/Fredersdorf meeting
Looking good in uniform.
The musical
Fritz, are u ok?
Katte ghost
Drunk Fritz episode
Slut
My OT3 in college (Because I'm a sucker for a modern AU.)

Oh,

selenak, remember your icon post where you said there was only one color portrait of Hans Hermann online? Aside from the plaque (which I think would make a good icon), while going through my looong list of tumblr links, I found a couple more that purport to be Katte (though this tumblr user mixes up the many Keiths, so I don't give these 100% credibility unless you recognize any of them) and also some of the Katte family members:

- Katte (This one I recognize in black-and-white, so the color version is probably correct.)
- Katte and sister concert
- Dad and (maternal) Grandpa
- Dad and Mom

Hans Heinrich does have a somewhat recognizable face that looks similar to the one in the most famous portrait of him, so those might actually be him.

The Geschwisterporträt is interesting. Says the original was destroyed in 1945 (along with all the Katte family papers, I assume), but that a privately owned copy was still around. Now, I absolutely buy someone made a copy of a Katte Family painting at some point pre 1945, because of the Fritz Connection and Hans Hermann having become a tragic legend, and the 1945 date for the original being destroyed actually makes me cautiously trustful, since that fits with what Klosterhuis says happened to the papers.

Grandpa, Mum and Dad Portraits: no problem there.

Alternate Hans Herrmann: could be. My Statement wasn't based on something said in a biography, just that all the German biographies I'd read kept using the same portrait, plus the black and white one, and I figured there was a reason for that.

Oh, and I see one of the tumblrs you linked - for which much thanks! - quotes your bete noire's Nancy Mitford's biography which describes Fritz & his brother's thusly: “The Kings’ brothers were more like sons to him – Augustus William, the Prince of Prussia, was born ten, Henry fourteen and Ferdinand eighteen years after him; he was strict with them and of course, they chafed under his rule… The Prince of Prussia ( 3rd from left ), a good-natured, not very interesting fellow…Ferdinand ( 2nd from left ) was never of much account… Prince Henry ( 4th from left ), now seventeen, was a great character, to be a pleasure and a pest to Frederick all his life,”

You know, I could Fritz see agreeing on the last part. With differing emphasis on "pleasure" and "pest" depending whether there's a war going on.

the 1945 date for the original being destroyed actually makes me cautiously trustful, since that fits with what Klosterhuis says happened to the papers.

I was actually thinking the same thing, since you told us about the 1945 letter destruction. Supposedly (news article, slightly more trustworthy than tumblr) there's also a surviving 1729 (original??) of a painting *by* Hans Hermann, which I'm dying to see. I don't suppose it could possibly be the famous double portrait miniature of the royal siblings? W does say he had it with him almost right up to the end and took great care to ensure it was preserved, doesn't she?

That's what I recall, can't however look it up right now. It would, of Course, be fabulous is it still existed. (Would take a painting of flowers as well, just to see whether he could in fact paint, but, you know, in terms of priorities…)

Right? I desperately need to see this painting either way. If we haven't found out more by then, it's on my list of things to inquire about when I'm in Wust one day, aka one reason I will either need you (preferably) or some English-speaking local whose presence you have kindly arranged for me. ;)

Meant to say: agree re Heinrich, and poor AW (and Ferdinand), always getting short shrift from non-Ziebura biographers.

Yes. I mean, nobody claims either of them were military or intellectual geniuses, but after reading all the material Ziebura first pointed me towards, I think "nice but dull" is just a facile, lazy dismissal. And I don't just mean in the positive sense. Sure, AW often comes across as very sympathetic, and despite having had, with first FW and then Fritz, two incredibly imposing authority figures in his life to influence him, clearly able to form his own ethical and intellectual opinions. (Including an admiration for constitutional monarchy and limited executive powers that's quite modern.) But even Lehndorff who consistently liked and admired him doesn't deny that the one person entitled not to mourn for AW was his (pregnant) wife. Because he was just as lousy a husband to her as his brothers were to their wives. He was a three dimensional human being, capacity for pettiness and cruelty along with the more laudable traits included.

As for Ferdinand, he is the most shadowy brother, but also the one whom managed to survive all the Hohenzollern drama while maintaining reasonably good relations with all the other siblings for as long as they lived. He also managed a decent marriage (incesteous as it was), as opposed to everyone else. Not to mention that opting out of the war post AW might not have been very patriotic, but it was a sound emotional and physical survival strategy in the face of what had happened. And he, too, wasn't without the Hohenzollern ability to be ruthless - doing a 180% on Mina from friendly flirting to complete coldness, whether it was for his marriage or because of AW issues or later because of Heinrich or all of the above being a case in point.

+1 to all your points.

Not to mention that opting out of the war post AW might not have been very patriotic, but it was a sound emotional and physical survival strategy

That, and it's hard to really hold lack of patriotism against him when this was a one-man war, at base. Heinrich also wanted to just give back Silesia and let everyone go home.

Fritz: I got us into this mess, and you're all, and I do mean all*, going to help me get us out of it, at the cost of your lives, for as many years as it takes. Got it?

* Saxons whose country I invaded and occupied not excepted.

The cosplaying and less than historically accurate fan art tumblrs are charming! Even the ones in Mandarin ;) Thank you for linking to them! I am not a fan of modern AUs, at all, but I’m willing to keep an open mind for Fritz fandom. And the mystery of the misidentified Hans Heinrich portraits just strikes me as kind of sad —as you say he had a distinctive face and a distinctive look in his famous portrait, and the Katte tumblrs are interesting!

Frederick the Great discussion post 9

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Tangentially...

Re: Tangentially...

Re: Tangentially...

Re: Tangentially...

Re: Tangentially...

Re: Tangentially...

Re: Tangentially...

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Re: Toppings of all types, continued - the Curious Case of the Recurring Favourite

Tumblr fandom

Re: Tumblr fandom

Re: Tumblr fandom

Re: Tumblr fandom

Re: Tumblr fandom

Re: Tumblr fandom

Re: Tumblr fandom

Re: Tumblr fandom

Re: Tumblr fandom