Frederick the Great discussion post 9

[cahn]

...I leave you guys alone for one weekend and it's time for a new Fritz post, lol!

I'm gonna reply to the previous post comments but I guess new letter-reading, etc. should go in this one :)

Frederick the Great links

Comments

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

I mean, if you wanted to slander a political opponent in Rome you didn‘t just insinuate he was getting it on with men, that wasn‘t negative per se, but that he was getting topped by social inferiors.

I just want to share this quote from Roman Homosexuality for cahn: "Finally, the crucial importance of appearances illustrates the complexities of the relationship between representation and reality. If a certain man actually played the receptive role in the majority of his sexual encounters, yet managed to keep that fact a secret known only to himself and his partners and otherwise maintained the appearance of a fully masculine man, then he was a fully masculine man in the all-important arena of public discourse, despite the fact that he actually was breaking the rules behind closed doors. By contrast, if there were persistent rumors to the effect that a man liked to play the receptive role in intercourse, even if the man himself had never actually been penetrated, he was ipso facto a marked man, metaphorically 'fucked' even if not literally so."

„Willing toy“ doesn‘t have to be a sexual position assumption, of course, but it could be, given the climate of the day.

Yep, makes sense to me. The alternative would probably be "source of ready money."

As for Lehndorff, what do you take him for?

Well, not someone who would share this much detail! That's why I was so surprised. I'm glad it was a different source, it makes much more sense.

Also, thanks for spelling out the details of your evidence for the FWB relationship. Yay data. Yay gossipy sensationalism.

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[selenak]

Yep, makes sense to me. The alternative would probably be "source of ready money."

Well, that, too. Btw, I find it pretty telling that while to this day you have indignant comment writers no-homo-ing Fritz and even about Heinrich going "there is no proof!", their contemporaries seem to have had zero doubts in that department.


But back to insinuations re: favourites - these do often come with assumptions of position.

I mean, take Louis XIV versus Louis XV. Le Roi Soleil had his share of mistresses, both short and long term, and made a great deal of enemies in his life, so there was no lack of caricature printed in, say, the Netherlands, which he was often at war with, or in some of the German states. But what's notably missing are caricatures that present him as being topped by his various ladies. The assumption being that however much influence the mistresses had, the sun king was the dominating manly man here, and thus of course on top. (His last maitresse en titre and morganatic wife Madame de Maintenon gets credited with emotionally topping him, but not in a way that lends itself to sexual assumptions, since the idea is that she, with the zeal of a convert - since she was a former Huguenot - is the one who makes Louis go ultra pious, ultra Catholic and drive out the Huguenots from France.)

Meanwhile, there is no lack of caricature of Louis XV being depicted as being physically topped by his mistresses as well as being led by his prick in general. Because unlike Grandpa, Louis XV isn't seen as manly and strong, he's seen as soft and easily swayed, which translates itself into being topped by women physically for the satirists.

Also, thanks for spelling out the details of your evidence for the FWB relationship. Yay data. Yay gossipy sensationalism.

Data is characterisation, as you've said. I also find it highly interesting that Lehndorff and Heinrich knew each other for years before Lehndorff falls in love. Until the winter of 1751, Heinrich is mentioned as part of the divine trio Lehndorff hangs out with, but not differently than Ferdinand, and the sole one of the three princes occasionally singled out for praise is AW. In fact, when lamenting AW in the summer of 1758 and looking back on his relationship with him, he notes that in 1750 Heinrich was in love with a guy named Wormser and had asked Lehndorff to let Wormser take his place in the carousel (= big Berlin carnival event), Lehndorff refused, Heinrich was irritated and somewhat cool towards Lehndorff for a while but AW backed Lehndorff up as being in the right not to surrender his place at the big social event of the season. This, like I said, jives with the early diary entries not singling out Heinrich among the brothers in any way until late 1751, when "Prince Heinrich" starts to get mentioned as "dear Prince Heinrich", Lehndorff starts to have dinners and meetings with him without one or both of the other two, and then in 1752 we start to get all those mad crush eloges ("what a man to be worshipped", "what little self possession I have leaves me when I am near him" etc.). So it's not a case of Lehndorff falling in love with a prince he doesn't yet know very well and is dazzled by, but Lehndorff falling in love with a prince he actually does know, has known and socialized with for years until something starts to change.

What major new thing is going on with Heinrich in the winter of 1751/ all through 1752? Fritz demands his submission in the form of marriage, that's what. Heinrich isn't actually boyfriend-less during that period, the boyfriend du jour back then is Reisewitz - who as Lehndorff notes is busy spending Heinrich's money supposed to go for the stables on himself - but for some reason, that's when he intensifies his relationship with Lehndorff from group friendship to intense personal relationship. (Which it will remain through the next decades.) And from Heinrich's pov, too, it's interesting he doesn't seek out someone new to compliment his already tumultous emotional life, he goes for someone he knows. (And knows to be a courtier, but not without a backbone instead of doing whatever a prince requests, as per the Wormer/carousel interlude.)

Re: Toppings of all types, continued

[mildred_of_midgard]

Ooh, thanks for the chronology of the evolution of the Heinrich/Lehndorff relationship, that's really interesting!

The iconography of the propaganda re the French kings was also interesting and informative.

This is such an educational fandom, I am in awe.