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Frederick the Great, discussion post 6
...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Yes, he does, that's in my Voltaire write-up notes. It's the one part where he doesn't read like a summary of Catt. That said, I found a lot of these little details going wrong in Voltaire, and as you said, not just because of the satire. I was more struck that he actually matches another source so closely here, because he's so often doing his own thing as an outsider, and a hostile one at that.
Which he definitely was not, he was in Berlin busy terrorizing the rest of his family, but it's the kind of thing a dramatist probably couldn't resist letting happen. (I mean, at least one fanfic writer went there as well.)
Yep, I was going to mention the fanfic writer in my Voltaire write-up. ;)
The memoirs that cover the time from 1723 onwards, Mémoires pour servir a l’histoire de quatre dernier souverains de la maison de Brandenbourg, didn't appear until after his death in 1791, again according to German wiki. So: if German wiki is correct as to what the various Pöllnitz memoirs cover and when they appeared, Wilhelmine can't have used Pöllnitz' written account.
Ooooh. That is some good attention to detail there, thank you. But yes, because they knew each other, there's a good chance he let her read them or read them to her. Or that by talking together they converged on an account that was very recent in both their minds when they wrote. (There's too much detail they agree on that I can't believe could be them independently remembering what they heard back in 1730.) But if they were chatting or even engaging in extensive correspondence around the time they were writing, they could have both have written accounts that follow each other that closely.
And if Pöllnitz came out in 1791, and Thiébault in 1804 (and he died in 1807, so this at least wasn't posthumous), Thiébault could still have been relying on Pöllnitz, although that narrows the window in which he could have done so.
Thank you for looking for Münchow correspondence and trying to figure out who Nicolai is. Can you tell from anywhere in the Preuss volume itself what he might be referring to? Surely you can't just write "Siehe Münchow an Nicolai S. 530" and expect your readers to know what that is? Surely that's that an abbreviated reference you can put on page 45 because you've already spelled out the full reference earlier in your book?
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
1.) Browsed through the first 54 pages of Preuß hunting for the source reference. Good lord. It's mid 19th century and onwards German nationalism time, so our author has to explain to the Fritz adoring German readership why their hero, defender of the fatherland(s), didn't like their language. He explains about the universal French education of German nobility, Prussia full of Hugenots etcs., but assures his readers that Old Fritz had "a true German mentality" (whatever that is, and he spells it "teutsch" not "deutsch", which is what ultra 19th century nationalists loved doing - Heinrich Heine often spoofed that habit hilariously") despising anything "welsch". (This German term does not mean Welsh people from Great Britain, thoiugh the origin of the word is actually related; in the 19th century, it's generally used as a derogatory term for anyone of Latin descent, primarily, though not exclusively, the French and Italians.
(Also, Preuß uses the expression "der einzige König" right in his first sentence which cracked me up.)
He's also very faithful to the 19th century historian interpretation: i.e. yes, FW was really harsh, but Küstrin Made Frederick Great, and FW was being a deutscher Hausvater - dude, not that I want to defend German patriarchy in the 18th century in general, but most German fathers at the time went "WTF???" at FW. (Even fellow dysfunctional monarch fathers like George II.) I also would like to point out that near contemporary and Ultimate Stage Dad Leopold Mozart (born in Augsburg and keeping Augsburg citizenship even when moving to Salzburg) would not have dreamt of hitting his offsprings and was able to combine discipline with affection and even humor. Then we have Goethe Senior who was majorly into letting his children learn a lot and definitely was not thrilled when JWG saw studying law primarily as an excuse to skip lessons, write poetry and hang out with his friends, but who didn't put a hand on his son (or let a servant do that for him), either. Seriously, FW was not typical for his time.
The footnotes include quite a lot Pöllnitz and Wilhelmine (without doubting either). But I finally got somewhere on the hunt for Nicolai. Fritz, I apologize, seems you did your own book shoping, for verily, one footnote tells me: Friedrich said as King once to Fr. Nicolai: "As a young man, I have often visited His father's bookshop., F. Goedicke Zeitschrift für Geschichte und Literatur, Bd. 1, Berlin 1824, S.241. So: Nicolai Senior, bookstore owner, was a indeed his source! If that alone didn't provide incentive to check out Nicolai Fils, Enlightnenment writer, there's also the constanct referencing of "Nicolais Anedcoten", in which the von Münchow letter might be included, and look what I found at Gutenberg Germany! Before I check out the Anekdoten for useful stuff, have an anecdote from Preuss about FW and G2 continuing the relationship they struck up as boys thusly:
"If George called his brother-in-law "my dear brother the subaltern" and "the arch sander of the Holy Roman Empire", Friedrich Wilhelm avenged hiimself by referring to George as "my dear brother the comedian"."
(
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Seriously, FW was not typical for his time.
Seriously. Even the harsh disciplinarians of the upper classes had *different priorities*. I feel like there were more 18C kids, or at least boys, beaten for not learning Latin than for trying to learn Latin.
Looking forward to the anecdotes! The first couple look comedic in the modern complimentary sense.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Oh, look, it's on archive.org! In that ridiculous font.
I definitely see the "la Mort est douce pour un si aimable Prince" quote, though! Found it!
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Will translate larger passage when I can.
ETA: Okay, finished the letter, definitely written by von Münchow Jr. in a "here's all you got wrong in your Collection of anecdotes" manner. Will translate.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Gottfried Traugott Gallus is the guy writing the Geschichte der Mark Brandenburg in 1803, quoting the letter from Münchow. He's like an earlier Fontane.
Per Carlyle, Münchow had a 7-yo son who--okay, Carlyle is quotable in brief as always, although unreadable in full:
"Many things, books among others, are, under cunning contrivance, smuggled in by the judicious Munchow, willing to risk himself in such a service. For example, Munchow has a son, a clever boy of seven years old; who, to the wonder of neighbors, goes into child's-petticoats again; and testifies the liveliest desire to be admitted to the Prince, and bear him company a little! Surely the law of No-company does not extend to that of an innocent child? The innocent child has a row of pockets all round the inside of his long gown; and goes laden, miscellaneously, like a ship of the desert, or cockboat not forbidden to cross the line. Then there are stools, one stool at least indispensable to human nature; and the inside of this, once you open it, is a chest-of-drawers, containing paper, ink, new literature and much else. No end to Munchow'a good-will, and his ingenuity is great."
Oh, look, his source is Preuss, volume i, page 46.
So, okay, eyewitness, but seven-year-old eyewitness.
On the other hand, I feel like that story got told around the dinner table in future years...
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Münchow fils to Nicolai: You like anecdotes? How about my interesting childhood! Now *that*'s an anecdote.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
The claim in the collection of anecdotes that the crown prince was forced to watch Lieutenant v. Katte's beheading is wrong. He did not leave my father's room in the fortress which my father had given to him at that point. From my father's room, you couldn't see the place of execution; a wall which separated the ditch which then was surrounding the keep from the outer wall blocked the view. Katte was led by a military guard to the execution place on the walls. Note by self "auf den Wall", i.e. on the walls, not in front of the walls is what Münchow Jr. writes.) The progress went past the keep, and thus past the windows of the Prince; the Prince, in whose room Commandant Köpel and my father were at this moment, I don't know whether due to an order from above or due to their own concern, pushed to the window, opened it when the sad train arrived, and called out loud these words: "pardonnez-moi, mon cher Katte!" The later answered: "La mort est douce pur un si aimable Prince." Then the Prince, crying, stepped back from the window and sat down on an arm chair. He was about to faint, my father had equipped himself with spirits for such an occasion and made him drink them, and before this was over, Katte's head was already separated from the body and lying on the sand heap which was 30 to 50 paces away from the chamber that served as the Prince's arrest room, but through the old wall so separted that it could not be overlooked. The commandant left the Prince; my father let himself be locked up with the Prince, and my mother kept a doctor and a Feldscher - that's a military doctor travelling with army - on alert through the whole day; my father only left the Prince deep into the night when the Prince had finally fallen asleep. If there had been an order that the Prince was to see the beheading, the Kommandant who was very conscious in following his orders would have obeyed it to the letter, which would have been very easy, since there was a door and stairs leading from the arrest room to a higher platform commonly called the Weisskopf - "White head" - and which had been earlier used as an execution spot for treason against the state under the Margrave Hans. I, who am writing these lines, have watched Katte's blood spray high from this same Weißkopf which my parents allowed me to use as garden and playground.
It was just by accident that the Prince saw the sad procession at all. For it only depended on my father whether he'd give this or another of his living rooms to the prince. The true goal cells for arrested personnel weren't located on this level but on the third floor of the fortress. My father did not just offer his room but he had to persuade the Kommandant not to put the Prince into one of these cells. From said cells, he wouldn't have been able to watch Katte's train at all. However, my father would not have done that if he had reason to suspect that the place of execution would be chosen in this area. This close confinement had lasted for six weeks; afterwards, the Prince was moved into town quarters, and attended as Ansculator (?) the war chamber sessions. He had to do reports, had to travel with my father to royal offices, and ha dto make suggestions. We kept some of his suggestions for the office in Himmelstadt by his hand, but it was burned during the Küstrin bombardment. The entire stay of the Prince in Küstrin only lasted one year, if that. As far as I recall, it lasted only eight to nine months.
Only long after I had left the court, I pondered a lot of what I had observed of him and found wisdom and caution in actions which I had earlier regarded as games and jokes.
The anecdote collection reports the coffee poisoning which the late man supposedly discovered through the shap look of the officer as a miracle. It was certainly nothing but the natural consequence of his caution, which he had introduced as a joke and as a game. There were always a selection of footmen destined to brew his coffee for him. When I served as his personal page, Herr Haase, the current supply commissioner who lives here, held this office. I call him as a witness. The late King had the habit of putting a spoon full of coffee into the mouth of whoever served the coffee to him; and if the man serving the coffee wouldn't open his mouth immediately for the spoon, he poured the spoon full of coffee into that man's shirt or on his arm. This didn't happen every day and not always, but it did happen, sometimes to pages, sometimes to footmen. It happened to me as well, but mostly it happened to the coffee brewers. We thought he was pranking us; when putting on his wardrobe he often was in a playful mood. It is far more likely, though, that he connected a serious intent with this game. And thus it is very likely that he wanted to pour that spoon full of coffee for the officer after the later had been unusually hesitant and hence had made him suspicious.
V. Münchow
Soooooo... do we believe now FW didn't order his son had to watch his boyfriend's execution?
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Soooooo... do we believe now FW didn't order his son had to watch his boyfriend's execution?
Interesting. I've seen an abundance of claims presenting evidence that Fritz was spared from watching Katte's death by the layout of the palace; this is the first one I've seen claim that Fritz was never ordered to watch in the first place.
If there had been an order that the Prince was to see the beheading, the Kommandant who was very conscious in following his orders would have obeyed it to the letter
Who is the Kommandant referenced here? Lepel? I don't know much about him, but I feel like Küstrin, like most of Fritz's youth, is one long story of "FW said to do X; we did enough X to not get in trouble, but tried to make Fritz's life easier to the best of our abilities."
The fact that von Münchow was seven, and the following line, don't make me especially confident in his memories:
The entire stay of the Prince in Küstrin only lasted one year, if that. As far as I recall, it lasted only eight to nine months.
The documentary evidence is September 1730 - February 1732, which I trust more than his "as far as I recall [from back when I was seven]."
Still, he did actually live at Küstrin, unlike almost any of our other sources, and he did presumably talk to his father.
As I think on this, I have some faint memory of FW's command actually being: "In sight of Fritz, or if that's not possible given the layout of the fortress, nearby." To which I assume everyone immediately went, "Oh, that's totally not possible!" But of course I cannot remember where I read it. I have a vague memory of it being in German and Google translated, but I can't find it in Fontane. Oh well, I'm sure it'll turn up, since I feel like I've run across it more than once, and I do go over the Katte source material repeatedly.
ETA: Ha, no, I give FW too much credit. The source I was remembering (Lavisse) goes like this: "The execution should take place under the windows of the prince. 'If this place is not large enough, another must be chosen, where the prince can see it well.'"
Citation: "Koser, in the Appendix, pp. 236-37."
Tracking Koser down...Okay, actual letter from FW to Lepel quoted: "Den Montag, als den 6. d. früh um 7 Uhr sollet Ihr von der Garnison 150 Mann commandieren lassen, die den Kreis schließen sollen, vor die Fenster des Cronprinzen, oder woferne ja daselbst nicht Platz genug dazu wäre, müsset Ihr einen andern Platz nehmen, sodaß der Cronprinz aus dem Fenster selbigen gut übersehen kann." [emphasis mine]
Yeah, FW. Never give him the benefit of the doubt. I absolutely believe the Commandant did it around the corner to spare Fritz. Sorry, kid.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Incidentally, since Jr. says he later served as page with Fritz, that's another sign v. Münchow Sr. (and his entire Family) must have been pretty decent. Mind you, I would not have wanted to get hot coffee spilled on me just because I don't open my mouth fast enough to mollify Fritz' paranoia about getting poisoned!
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
(And no, nobody wants to drink his ridiculous coffee, although I seem to remember reading he would add the mustard and peppercorns himself, so maybe the pages only have to taste the actual coffee.)
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
This was super interesting to me: the only part I was familiar with was that "Welsh" is a derogatory term meaning "foreigners"; a large number of ethnonyms either mean "all the people that count as people" or "those awful foreigners", depending on whether you get to name yourself or your neighbors you.
(Also, Preuß uses the expression "der einzige König" right in his first sentence which cracked me up.)
...One king to rule them all, one king to find them, one king to bring them all, and in the--Enlightenment?--bind them. :P
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
...One king to rule them all, one king to find them, one king to bring them all, and in the--Enlightenment?--bind them.
In the land of Prussia, where the soldiers are.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
(And where the soldiers are not allowed to go to England, and yea, the musicians are also considered as soldiers.
ETA: And also the lame chamberlains.)
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
into Mordoraway from Prussia.Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
I guess they both came back and found the Shire had been saved, but not for them.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Not sure about Peter as Frodo, though the Shire was definitely saved, and not for him.
Voltaire would like to point out that nobody is allowed to cast him as Tom Bombadil. Heinrich just insists he's not a Ring Wraith, because the Witch King was just a lousy tactician who should have seen Eowyn coming.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis