Frederick the Great, discussion post 6
Dec. 2nd, 2019 02:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
cahn...I think we need another one (seriously, you guys, this is THE BEST) and I'd better make it now before I disappear into the wilds of music performance.
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
(also, as of this week there are two Frederician fics in the yuletide archive and eeeeeeeeeee)
(huh, only one of them is actually tagged with Frederick the Great even though two with Maria Theresia and Wilhelmine, eeeeeee this is awesome I CAN'T WAIT)
Frederick the Great masterpost
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Date: 2019-12-19 09:12 am (UTC)Will translate larger passage when I can.
ETA: Okay, finished the letter, definitely written by von Münchow Jr. in a "here's all you got wrong in your Collection of anecdotes" manner. Will translate.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Date: 2019-12-19 09:21 am (UTC)Gottfried Traugott Gallus is the guy writing the Geschichte der Mark Brandenburg in 1803, quoting the letter from Münchow. He's like an earlier Fontane.
Per Carlyle, Münchow had a 7-yo son who--okay, Carlyle is quotable in brief as always, although unreadable in full:
"Many things, books among others, are, under cunning contrivance, smuggled in by the judicious Munchow, willing to risk himself in such a service. For example, Munchow has a son, a clever boy of seven years old; who, to the wonder of neighbors, goes into child's-petticoats again; and testifies the liveliest desire to be admitted to the Prince, and bear him company a little! Surely the law of No-company does not extend to that of an innocent child? The innocent child has a row of pockets all round the inside of his long gown; and goes laden, miscellaneously, like a ship of the desert, or cockboat not forbidden to cross the line. Then there are stools, one stool at least indispensable to human nature; and the inside of this, once you open it, is a chest-of-drawers, containing paper, ink, new literature and much else. No end to Munchow'a good-will, and his ingenuity is great."
Oh, look, his source is Preuss, volume i, page 46.
So, okay, eyewitness, but seven-year-old eyewitness.
On the other hand, I feel like that story got told around the dinner table in future years...
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Date: 2019-12-19 09:22 am (UTC)Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis
Date: 2019-12-19 09:26 am (UTC)Münchow fils to Nicolai: You like anecdotes? How about my interesting childhood! Now *that*'s an anecdote.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-19 09:52 am (UTC)The claim in the collection of anecdotes that the crown prince was forced to watch Lieutenant v. Katte's beheading is wrong. He did not leave my father's room in the fortress which my father had given to him at that point. From my father's room, you couldn't see the place of execution; a wall which separated the ditch which then was surrounding the keep from the outer wall blocked the view. Katte was led by a military guard to the execution place on the walls. Note by self "auf den Wall", i.e. on the walls, not in front of the walls is what Münchow Jr. writes.) The progress went past the keep, and thus past the windows of the Prince; the Prince, in whose room Commandant Köpel and my father were at this moment, I don't know whether due to an order from above or due to their own concern, pushed to the window, opened it when the sad train arrived, and called out loud these words: "pardonnez-moi, mon cher Katte!" The later answered: "La mort est douce pur un si aimable Prince." Then the Prince, crying, stepped back from the window and sat down on an arm chair. He was about to faint, my father had equipped himself with spirits for such an occasion and made him drink them, and before this was over, Katte's head was already separated from the body and lying on the sand heap which was 30 to 50 paces away from the chamber that served as the Prince's arrest room, but through the old wall so separted that it could not be overlooked. The commandant left the Prince; my father let himself be locked up with the Prince, and my mother kept a doctor and a Feldscher - that's a military doctor travelling with army - on alert through the whole day; my father only left the Prince deep into the night when the Prince had finally fallen asleep. If there had been an order that the Prince was to see the beheading, the Kommandant who was very conscious in following his orders would have obeyed it to the letter, which would have been very easy, since there was a door and stairs leading from the arrest room to a higher platform commonly called the Weisskopf - "White head" - and which had been earlier used as an execution spot for treason against the state under the Margrave Hans. I, who am writing these lines, have watched Katte's blood spray high from this same Weißkopf which my parents allowed me to use as garden and playground.
It was just by accident that the Prince saw the sad procession at all. For it only depended on my father whether he'd give this or another of his living rooms to the prince. The true goal cells for arrested personnel weren't located on this level but on the third floor of the fortress. My father did not just offer his room but he had to persuade the Kommandant not to put the Prince into one of these cells. From said cells, he wouldn't have been able to watch Katte's train at all. However, my father would not have done that if he had reason to suspect that the place of execution would be chosen in this area. This close confinement had lasted for six weeks; afterwards, the Prince was moved into town quarters, and attended as Ansculator (?) the war chamber sessions. He had to do reports, had to travel with my father to royal offices, and ha dto make suggestions. We kept some of his suggestions for the office in Himmelstadt by his hand, but it was burned during the Küstrin bombardment. The entire stay of the Prince in Küstrin only lasted one year, if that. As far as I recall, it lasted only eight to nine months.
Only long after I had left the court, I pondered a lot of what I had observed of him and found wisdom and caution in actions which I had earlier regarded as games and jokes.
The anecdote collection reports the coffee poisoning which the late man supposedly discovered through the shap look of the officer as a miracle. It was certainly nothing but the natural consequence of his caution, which he had introduced as a joke and as a game. There were always a selection of footmen destined to brew his coffee for him. When I served as his personal page, Herr Haase, the current supply commissioner who lives here, held this office. I call him as a witness. The late King had the habit of putting a spoon full of coffee into the mouth of whoever served the coffee to him; and if the man serving the coffee wouldn't open his mouth immediately for the spoon, he poured the spoon full of coffee into that man's shirt or on his arm. This didn't happen every day and not always, but it did happen, sometimes to pages, sometimes to footmen. It happened to me as well, but mostly it happened to the coffee brewers. We thought he was pranking us; when putting on his wardrobe he often was in a playful mood. It is far more likely, though, that he connected a serious intent with this game. And thus it is very likely that he wanted to pour that spoon full of coffee for the officer after the later had been unusually hesitant and hence had made him suspicious.
V. Münchow
Soooooo... do we believe now FW didn't order his son had to watch his boyfriend's execution?
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-19 10:23 am (UTC)Soooooo... do we believe now FW didn't order his son had to watch his boyfriend's execution?
Interesting. I've seen an abundance of claims presenting evidence that Fritz was spared from watching Katte's death by the layout of the palace; this is the first one I've seen claim that Fritz was never ordered to watch in the first place.
If there had been an order that the Prince was to see the beheading, the Kommandant who was very conscious in following his orders would have obeyed it to the letter
Who is the Kommandant referenced here? Lepel? I don't know much about him, but I feel like Küstrin, like most of Fritz's youth, is one long story of "FW said to do X; we did enough X to not get in trouble, but tried to make Fritz's life easier to the best of our abilities."
The fact that von Münchow was seven, and the following line, don't make me especially confident in his memories:
The entire stay of the Prince in Küstrin only lasted one year, if that. As far as I recall, it lasted only eight to nine months.
The documentary evidence is September 1730 - February 1732, which I trust more than his "as far as I recall [from back when I was seven]."
Still, he did actually live at Küstrin, unlike almost any of our other sources, and he did presumably talk to his father.
As I think on this, I have some faint memory of FW's command actually being: "In sight of Fritz, or if that's not possible given the layout of the fortress, nearby." To which I assume everyone immediately went, "Oh, that's totally not possible!" But of course I cannot remember where I read it. I have a vague memory of it being in German and Google translated, but I can't find it in Fontane. Oh well, I'm sure it'll turn up, since I feel like I've run across it more than once, and I do go over the Katte source material repeatedly.
ETA: Ha, no, I give FW too much credit. The source I was remembering (Lavisse) goes like this: "The execution should take place under the windows of the prince. 'If this place is not large enough, another must be chosen, where the prince can see it well.'"
Citation: "Koser, in the Appendix, pp. 236-37."
Tracking Koser down...Okay, actual letter from FW to Lepel quoted: "Den Montag, als den 6. d. früh um 7 Uhr sollet Ihr von der Garnison 150 Mann commandieren lassen, die den Kreis schließen sollen, vor die Fenster des Cronprinzen, oder woferne ja daselbst nicht Platz genug dazu wäre, müsset Ihr einen andern Platz nehmen, sodaß der Cronprinz aus dem Fenster selbigen gut übersehen kann." [emphasis mine]
Yeah, FW. Never give him the benefit of the doubt. I absolutely believe the Commandant did it around the corner to spare Fritz. Sorry, kid.
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-19 11:03 am (UTC)Incidentally, since Jr. says he later served as page with Fritz, that's another sign v. Münchow Sr. (and his entire Family) must have been pretty decent. Mind you, I would not have wanted to get hot coffee spilled on me just because I don't open my mouth fast enough to mollify Fritz' paranoia about getting poisoned!
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-19 11:14 am (UTC)(And no, nobody wants to drink his ridiculous coffee, although I seem to remember reading he would add the mustard and peppercorns himself, so maybe the pages only have to taste the actual coffee.)
Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-29 01:13 am (UTC)Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-29 01:17 am (UTC)Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-29 01:19 am (UTC)Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-29 02:56 am (UTC)Re: Katte's Death: The Documentary Hypothesis - The V. Münchow Version
Date: 2019-12-29 03:00 am (UTC)