cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 6

Barbarina: it's a shame that final guy turned out to be a less than stellar choice (seriously, Fritz actually turns out to have a good instinct for lousy husbands/boyfriends - all accidents due to his Control issues, or character insight?) , but other than that, she seems to have lived the unapologetic life of a rococo superstar on her terms - good for her!

Lehndorff is nothing if not consistent! I admire your focus (Hotham notwithstanding).

Given that Heinrich keeps changing boyfriends, Lehndorff is allowed one alternate True Love. Incidentally, note that 1906!Editor does not try to sell us Lehndorff's feelings for his prince or for Dearest Hotham as paternal/filial/fraternal/family relationship of choice. He doesn't classify them at all, he just apologizes and explains the general Rokoko emo and waterworks. Otherwise, he even says in the summaries stuff like "and then he was delighted to see his beloved Prince Heinrich again". I have no idea what 1926!Editor would have made of Lehndorff. Or Heinrich. Also, I can't help but seeing a backwards development here. Theodor Fontane in the late 19th century, with the Oscar Wilde trial still to come, has no problem referring to Heinrich's last boyfriend as "a relationship of the heart" and not mentioning the word "fatherly" even once, despite an age gap which actually would have fit with that for his readers.

Stuarts: Lehndorff is reading the history in the early 1750s, so definitely after. And yes, finding the Stuarts weird when you're surrounded by Hohenzollerns whom you fanboy as royalty role models is so breathtakingly... something... that I just had to share. Incidentally, the current head of the Stuarts through the Jacobite line is... drumroll... none other than the current head of the House of Wittelsbach, Franz von Bayern. Wittelsbachs: smugly: Not only are we better at survival than the Hohenzollern, we also still own our castles. And those we don't any more, we got paid handsomely for. Also? We know which claims to pursue and which to leave for folk dancing opportunities.

(Seriously though, Franz spent some time in a concentration camp as a child because the Wittelsbachs, as opposed to Willy's kids, really were anti Nazi. A plus guy, Franz. Jacobites could do worse.)

As for me, the only of the classic Stuarts I really like is Charles II., but that generation and the one before and after certainly is screwed up enough that we could, post Yuletide, hold a very special Stuarts session. Given The Favourite has made Anne as the last Stuart Queen reappear on people's radar again, who knows who might join?

Barbarina: it's a shame that final guy turned out to be a less than stellar choice (seriously, Fritz actually turns out to have a good instinct for lousy husbands/boyfriends - all accidents due to his Control issues, or character insight?)

From the guy who thought living with Voltaire was an A+ idea? Well, I don't know, it's not uncommon for it to be easier to spot the mote in someone else's eye than the beam in yours. And we have no data on Hotham, of course. But aside from Voltaire, and some non-serious pretty boys he liked to look at (Trenck, Glosow), Fritz's choices for relationships of the heart that I can think of, seem to have been pretty solid choices: Keith, Katte, Fredersdorf, Algarotti. He was not necessarily good at holding up his end, but I would approve any of them for him as a boyfriend/husband (though not necessarily him for them).

Of course, if Voltaire had been interested in marrying Fritz, he would have eloped with him in a heartbeat, so...no one's perfect.

As for how clearly he saw the problems in other people's relationships, I really can't say. Too many control issues, and Occam's razor and all that.

Given that Heinrich keeps changing boyfriends, Lehndorff is allowed one alternate True Love.

Indeed! I'm very far from criticizing him. Just teasing him a little about what you told me was the very abrupt rebound boyfriend he was ready to emigrate for. Heck, maybe emigrating and getting *away* from the yo-yoing of his emotions re Heinrich was a major draw. :(

the current head of the Stuarts through the Jacobite line is... drumroll... none other than the current head of the House of Wittelsbach, Franz von Bayern.

Hahaha, yup. The Stuart line got saner with time?

Franz spent some time in a concentration camp as a child because the Wittelsbachs, as opposed to Willy's kids, really were anti Nazi.

That part I didn't know. Good for them. (I mean, sucks to be them in the 1940s, but good for them.)

As for me, the only of the classic Stuarts I really like is Charles II

He's definitely best of breed.

we could, post Yuletide, hold a very special Stuarts session. Given The Favourite has made Anne as the last Stuart Queen reappear on people's radar again, who knows who might join?

Very true! I've only heard of this in the last few days, by way of my wife, who actually watches things. She really liked it. So yes, maybe we'll attract some new people for that session. Plus YT had some James VI/I slashing nominations and at least one request I remember seeing, so maybe we'll gain some traction there.

I admit to largely skipping 17th century history, so I assume I know more than

cahn and significantly less than you about the Stuarts who were actual reigning British monarchs, and honestly, you've probably kept your Scottish monarch knowledge fresher than mine. Meanwhile, I've forgotten more than most people ever knew about the '45 and gotten rid of all my books long ago, but I'm sure I can still hold up my end of the conversation with what's left, and the internet will help jog my memory. It'll be fun! And even tangentially related to Fritz, defender of the Protestant faith and employer of Jacobite ambassadors to Versailles (A+ trolling there, as always, Fritz).

Edited 2019-12-09 21:05 (UTC)

From the guy who thought living with Voltaire was an A+ idea?

You do have a point. In his defense, he hadn't met Voltaire in person before inviting him? Then again, as you say, he probably would have eloped with him later, too, so. Good point about the other serious relationships, too. He certainly shows a better taste in choosing for himself there than Heinrich (mostly).

Alas, google brought me nothing about Hotham Jr. in terms of what he was like, so he could have been anyone between Mr. Perfect and soemone Lehndorff was better off without. Can't help but notice, in any event, that he never came back for Lehndorff. And he hadn't been banished from Prussia, he could have. Perhaps not during the Seven-Years-War, though Britain was an ally, but later? Then again, it was four months. Hotham Jr. could have been a great guy and still be forgiven for not clinging to a four-months love affair years later.

There's also the question as to how much Fritz noticed about Lehndorff anyway. In what I've read, Lehndorff doesn't report a single one on one conversation, which I'm sure he would have if they'd ever had one, or at least he'd have written something like "the King graciously singled me out for conversation". Given the sheer amount of time Lehndorff spent hanging out with the younger brothers, he must have registered at least as something a bit more than "EC's chamberlain", but not much more.

Now, given that when Hotham arrives on the scene, Lehndorff is in a "Heinrich who?" mood and all "ignoring you now, see if I care, here's my new love!", I'm not surprised he didn't ask Heinrich to intercede for him with the King, but it's interesting he doesn't ask AW, either, and AW is the sole royal brother he's consistently on good terms with. So why not ask the Crown Prince to plead on your behalf with the King? Especially since even royal siblings (Ulrike, Wilhelmine during the three years of estrangement) ask AW for mediation, and that's his role in the family from toddlerdom on - when SD & Co. used him to ask FW for favours - until the Seven Years War; he's not likely to refuse without good reason, especially if he likes someone, and he did like Lehndorff. (If the direct German quotes from his last year of life are anything to go by, he called him "Lehndorfchen", i.e. the endearment form.)

Tentative speculation: as much as Lehndorff was in love with Hotham, maybe a part of him didn't want to go and thus subconsicously was holding him back?

You do have a point. In his defense, he hadn't met Voltaire in person before inviting him?

Au contraire! He first met Voltaire in 1740, in Cleves, on his trip west to Bayreuth, western Prussian domains, and Strasbourg, right after becoming king. Then Voltaire spent a couple weeks at his court before the Silesian invasion. Voltaire was annoyed because he didn't get an invitation to stay on permanently on that occasion, and people like Maupertuis and Algarotti did.

And then he visited again in 1743, to spy on Fritz for the French court (and Fritz apparently suspected this and kept him away from anywhere he might acquire any useful information). And during this time, they visited Wilhelmine together.

And then Fritz spent years trying to lure him back, and finally got him in 1750, after his mistress Émilie Du Châtelet died in childbirth in 1749. (Poor Émilie. :-( )

So not only had he met Voltaire, Fritz was already snarking about his personality, and he knew Voltaire was willing to spy on him (on behalf of his at-the-time French allies, but still). And Fritz's approach to wooing Voltaire to his court involved publishing a scurrilous poem in Voltaire's name, in hopes of pissing off the French court so that he would need to flee to Prussia for asylum. (Voltaire found out and was not too impressed by the underhandedness.) And between spying on each other and betraying each other, they wanted each other badly enough that 1750-1753 happened.

I can hear you saying, "Good lord." This sort of thing is what their correspondence translator meant by "They so thoroughly deserve each other"!

(You know, this would actually make good fic if I could write at all. Someday.)

But yes, aside from Voltaire, Fritz seems to have had pretty good judgment in selecting partners, even if not always the relationship skills to back it (re Algarotti especially).

Alas, google brought me nothing about Hotham Jr. in terms of what he was like, so he could have been anyone between Mr. Perfect and soemone Lehndorff was better off without.

Agreed. I admit I didn't dig too deeply, but I was looking for what I could find on him, and it wasn't much. It took a fair bit of digging just to work out that he was the nephew of the double marriage Hotham.

Hotham Jr. could have been a great guy and still be forgiven for not clinging to a four-months love affair years later.

Agree completely.

Tentative speculation: as much as Lehndorff was in love with Hotham, maybe a part of him didn't want to go and thus subconsicously was holding him back?

Could be! It's an interesting question that hadn't occurred to me.

Edited 2019-12-10 23:50 (UTC)

And between spying on each other and betraying each other, they wanted each other badly enough that 1750-1753 happened.

I'm with the translator -they thoroughly deserve each other.

ETA: Could you tell me more about Voltaire's particular beef with Maupertuis? /end of ETA

re: Hotham - Lehndorff Unplugged has more on that front, too. Including one time when he drags Hotham on one of his farewell visits (since Lehndorff thinks he's emigrating to England, he makes a goodbye tour through the Berlin salons), and wouldn't you know it, it's the one to Heinrich. Whom he's totally indifferent towards now. Bad luck, Prince! See what you'll be missing!

At which point I thought: mayyyyyynbe Hotham Jr. wasn't quite as clueless as Lehndorff, deduced new German boyfriend was just a bit hung up on this Prince Heinrich person, and later, once he's back in England, decided to leave things be. He doesn't write, either, or at least Lehndorff doesn't mention it, and the Unplugged version even mentions all the letters from his mother and siblings.

Edited 2019-12-11 07:03 (UTC)

Aww, man. Yeah, I feel like maybe, intentionally or not, Fritz may have saved this relationship from a disaster even if Hotham was Mister Upstanding Perfect Gentleman--Lehndorff just doesn't seem ready to commit here, even if he thinks he is.

(Mind you, from an individual liberty perspective, I totally think people should be allowed to make their own mistakes and risk disastrous relationships, just as Fritz and Voltaire did. But Fritz may be showing signs of a radar for "This is not serious relationship material" for everyone except Voltaire, about whom he was about as rational as Lehndorff and Lady Mary combined.)

Re your ETA: Absolutely, Voltaire and Maupertuis are already on my Trello list for replies to to your "Lehndorff: A month in the life" write-up, which left me with about a number of things I wanted to elaborate on, some of which require at least fact-checking my memory, and my concentration isn't cooperating. But it's on my list! (Along with Bielfeld, the Tiergarten, and the Pucelle. And I haven't forgotten about the mystery Italian poet from the Barbarina discussion either, whom I suspect may be Algarotti but may not.)

Apropos of that, this thread may afford you some brief amusement while you wait.

omg this is great!! ahahaha, sadly I am unavailable for Fritz/Voltaire this Yuletide (see also: OMG DECEMBER), but let us talk about this next Yuletide :P Because OMG this is AWESOME. Fritz/Voltaire is maybe my favorite crack ship now :P (...only it's canon!)

(well, okay, Fritz/Joe will always have a special place in my heart too)

By next Yuletide, I hope to have acquired more background info on Voltaire! That should help. I've already managed to read/skim his memoirs insofar as they pertained to Fritz, made possible even in my current state by dint of its being 1) short, 2) full of things I already know about Fritz, 3) so heavily quoted in secondary sources that it was almost like rereading rather than reading. I hope to do a write-up as soon as I have time + brainpower, i.e. brainpower that doesn't get spent on something else.

I mean, learning French and reading their 3 volumes of correspondence is a bit ambitious, but aggressively Google translating a bunch of letters: very likely.

They are an awesome crack pairing! Even 1926!Editor admits they're canon to at least some degree! (And aww, we never did get Fritz and Joe together.)

I have found two Fritz/Voltaire quotes of possible interest. One is for real, and the other is one of those things where I tracked down the citation and it didn't say that, nay, not even in the French. However, the text gives a different citation that seems more likely to be real, only good luck tracking it down. Anyway. Here we go!

This is Fritz writing to Algarotti in 1749, when he's trying to lure Voltaire into a permanent position at his court:

It is a great pity that such a cowardly soul should be joined to such a great genius. He has all the lovableness and maliciousness of a monkey … I am not going to make a fuss because I need him for the study of French elocution. You may learn pretty things from a scoundrel. I want to know his French: how important is the moral issue? This man has found the means to combine opposites. You admire his mind at the same time as despising his character.

So, on the one hand, Fritz knew. He knew what he was getting himself in for. On the other hand, his protestation that he's only doing it for the French lessons...dude, your French and your poetry are bad enough that there are a number of other people you can get lessons from. You don't get this emotionally invested in a French teacher. You are Head. Over. Heels.

And then there's this quote, which is supposedly from a letter from Voltaire to his niece (Madame Denis' sister) which got translated into the memoirs. Now, I have the memoirs, both in English and in French, and neither of them has this passage. But the original letter may. Anyway. Voltaire has just accepted the position and arrived at Fritz's court. He writes:

I have been formally granted, my dear child, to the king of Prussia. My marriage has been celebrated; will it be a happy one? I have no idea. I could not stop myself from saying yes. The marriage would have happened anyway, after flirting for so many years. My heart beat nervously at the altar.

THEY WRITE THEMSELVES.

(I really need to see the original, though. If I could afford it, I'd love a subscription to E-Enlightenment, which supposedly has his full correspondence as well as that of a lot of other Enlightenment figures, such as Lady Mary, but...it's $40/mo, and even if I could download everything I needed in one month...not until I'm working again. Of course, then I'll have much less time for fandom, but, tradeoffs.)

More Voltaire crackfic material!

Remember when

selenak reported a conspiracy theory that all accusations of homosexuality against Fritz were from a Voltaire being paid by Austrian agents to slander him? And she wrote:

As centuries old conspiracy theories go, this is a new one, at least to me. I mean: how MT would have hired Voltaire to spread gossip about Fritz' sex life (as opposed to Voltaire doing it out of spite), I don't know, but I'm sure Voltaire would have taken the money if he was annoyed and broke enough at the time, principles be damned. It's just that given MT's general opinion on French freethinking philosphers suspected of denying god, he'd probably run once he saw an Austrian agent.

Well, just because Voltaire's ENTIRE LIFE is a crackfic, I have figured out how that would work! Immediately after the whole Frankfurt explosion, Fritz wrote to Marischal that Voltaire "has petitioned the queen of Hungary to enter into her service. She has sent an ingenious reply that there was room for Voltaire only on Mount Parnassus, and as that was not in Vienna, they couldn’t receive him in the manner due. On learning this the poet wrote to the king my uncle, asking him for a pension of £800 a year."

And yes, I have the actual letter where Fritz says this. Now, is Fritz necessarily a reliable source on Voltaire? No, but he's attributing a retort to MT that he calls ingenious, so maybe that's genuine. Or he's just trying to make it look like Voltaire is consorting with his enemies. But I like to think Voltaire asked her and she made that quip.

Voltaire *sitting on a street corner holding up a cardboard sign*: Will Satirize Fritz for Money
Voltaire *sotto voce*: Will also do it on my own time, unpaid.

I...

I am not even sure Fritz/Voltaire is a thing a fic could do justice to. It's one of those things where you're like, "but who could really ~~get more crackfic~~ improve on canon?!"

OMG LOL, I am laughing both at Voltaire and at Fritz saying something nice about MT. (Also: MT, I still love you lots!)

It's like when someone asked for Alcibiades crackfic for Yuletide and back when I still thought I might be able to write fics before Dec 25, I was like, "I don't have to write a crackfic, I just have to describe what happened!"

MT was too smart to invite Voltaire to her court, but we--or at least I--still wish she had. :P Fritz wasn't, and look at all the comedy = tragedy + time that resulted!

From Passionate Minds, which doesn't believe in citations: "In writings that were to be kept strictly private, Frederick jotted down his dreams. 'I admire [Voltaire's] eyes, so clear and piercing...I would kiss his eloquent lips, 100 times.'"

CITATION NEEDED. CITATION DESPERATELY NEEDED by gossipy sensationalists.

Also, the immediately following line, "Voltaire was willing to do a lot for his country, but Frederick was gay, and Voltaire was not. With a certain amount of deft footwork, he intended to remain that way," in combination with one of my earlier quotes, is hilarious.

"I'm not gay, I just want to marry Frederick."

Oh, man, rarely have I needed two citations as badly as I need the citations for these two quotes.

(Also, the implication that rape turns you gay is...hopefully unintentional, but very unfortunate wording.)

Wait, like, what are these Fritz writings that were to be kept strictly private? And why don't you, the terrier scholar with sensationalist gossipy tendencies, know about them? I'm more than half inclined to say that the author made them up :P

Re: Fritz and Voltaire

mildred_of_midgard - 2019-12-29 00:59 (UTC) - Expand

More Fritz/Voltaire, from Catt. It's 1758, so 5 years after their big falling out.

[Fritz is speaking] "After having depicted Voltaire to you as wicked, faithless, and dangerous, I will say a word to you about those who formerly composed my literary society."

He was at this point, when a letter was brought in to him. He saw the seal and cried: "Ah, Catt, it is from Voltaire. He still remembers then that I exist." He opened and read or rather devoured with his eyes the letter.

And Wilhelmine is the one who's hopelessly fallen for him, riiiight.

(omg, you guys, I am so sorry about being so absent from Amazing Shiny Sparkly Fandom Discussion, this has all been amazing, Lehndorff is <3, and unfortunately with Christmas Stuff and travel my availability may well not going to get any better for the rest of the month... although it should get substantially better after the first week in Jan) but here I am popping up at least temporarily :) )

There's also the question as to how much Fritz noticed about Lehndorff anyway.

Heeeeee. I just really don't get the impression Fritz would notice someone like Lehndorff at all. I mean, I'm sure being EC's chamberlain didn't help, but I feel like Fritz went for the brainy and/or competent guys (and not just romantically speaking, although I was sort of thinking about that, but also in general) and... it's not that Lehndorff is incompetent, exactly, but his general cluelessness can't have helped! I bet he would have had a much better chance if he'd run EC's stuff so well that Fritz noticed... although with how much he didn't want to think about EC, that might have also been super difficult, so... Lehndorff may have just been in a no-win situation in terms of getting Fritz' notice!

We miss you, but real life calls! ~~Even though you are neglecting your true purpose in life, which is to encourage us in ours.~~

I kind of agree re Fritz noticing Lehndorff, and I'm not sure even being hyper-competent would have helped (as you say, EC), but neglecting his job to crush on Heinrich and hang out with the divine trio was not calculated to appeal to Fritz!

Although, idk, it worked out for Marwitz. :P

Only as batman, though, where "charisma + pretty face" seem to have been the main job qualifications. Seriously, Fritz, your serious affairs are solid (unlike your brother's), but your batmen that I know of are Glosow (imprisoned for either attempted assassination or unauthorized use of your seal), Marwitz (Trenck-lite), and, uh, Trenck himself.

Lehndorff does not strike me as either hyper-comptent/brainy *or* charismatic bastard enough to catch Fritz's eye. Plus what

selenak said about not wanting to replace him in a dead-end job.

Alas for Lehndorff, I fear you're both right here. Then again, if he had caught Fritz' eye, either professionally or otherwise, he'd have lost his relationship with Heinrich, and while the later had its frustrations and torments, I don't think Lehndorff would have wanted to miss those fifty years of it. He was really, truly, deeply, madly in love, and not the type to let reason prevail (at least not until very late in the game).

Batmen: indeed, those seem to have been the qualifications. Though we can add "quick witted" (NOT the same as smart) and "raconteur" for Trenck and "witty" for Marwitz, so I suppose Fritz also liked his batmen to be able to be able to provide some banter?

Why is it every time I delete something, you go ahead and say it? Yes, indeed, I had originally written something about being witty/quick-witted as qualifications and given examples, but decided I was rambling.

Quick-wittedness was moreover a general qualification for Fritz being willing to give you the time of day, not just batmen, at least according to Catt (whom I have no reason to disbelieve), and Catt also reports that Fritz went by first impressions. If he decided you were quick-witted when you met, you were quick-witted forever. If not, you had little to no chance of changing his mind. So Lehndorff I think was SOL from the beginning.

If Catt's right, said line-up of batmen must have each been having a good day when they met him and got the job offer. (Catt's own job offer, as you may recall, came after a single incognito meeting. I've also been impressed just how quickly Fritz started confiding in Catt and telling him things, though it's possible the "Nobody else knows this, only you, my sole confidant" lines Fritz keeps feeding him are not strictly true? Actually, come to think of it, it wouldn't surprise me if it were paranoid Fritz testing him. Or a distortion of memory due to Catt's memoirs being written well after the fact.)

I don't think Lehndorff would have wanted to miss those fifty years of it

That's very true. Poor Lehndorff, caught between the brothers.

Re: Barbarina

selenak - 2019-12-18 07:31 (UTC) - Expand

we could, post Yuletide, hold a very special Stuarts session.

Yes please! Stuarts are one of those parts of British history that I don't know anything about. And I have heard good things about The Favourite that made me want to watch it -- wait, that was your review :P :) (I haven't watched it yet, of course.)

I myself would not mind getting a crash course in the 17th century Stuarts. I know the rough outlines and some surprisingly specific details, but I'm willing to bet most of it is new to me, or will ring a faint bell at best.

Okay, some earlier posts of mine with Stuart - related subjects:

Review of two novels by Jude Morgan. (The second one is about the romantic poets, btw, specifically Byron-Shelley-Keats, and it's excellent, too. The Stuart novel is called "The King's Touch", was Morgan's debut novel and deals with Charles II through the eyes of his first illegitimate kid, James, later Duke of Monmouth.

Now, in this review, I assume some things are made up by Morgan which later turned out to have been actually historical, bear this in mind.

Review post about two biographies. The other one is about Fancis Barber, servant to Dr. Johnson, no Stuart connection. The Stuart biography is about Monmouth, and that's where I do a compare and contrast to the novel.

Another historical tv show imagined by me, this one about penniless Charles II in his exile years forced to make a buck by fighting crime together with a Dutchwoman who later turns out to be a secret Cromwell agent.

Madame and her brother, review with extensive quotes of the correspondance between Charles and his youngest (and favourite) sister Henriette (Minette), the unfortunate first wife of Philippe d'Orleans. If Philippe comes across far worse here than I've presented him in the Liselotte context,

cahn, it's because he was horrid to Minette (she wasn't stellar, either, but honestly, he had the social power and he was far more terrible to her - if I tell you even Fritz comes across as a better husband, you'll get the hint), and because I hadn't yet watched Versailles, which softened me up a bit to Monsieur.

Review of THE FAVOURITE, set during the last years of Anne (niece of Charles, daughter to brother James), who is one of the three main characters.

Something I've also read and watched, but not reviewed in my journal because it was years earlier: Antonia Fraser's biography of Charles II, as well as the BBC tv show about him based on it. That one comes in a bowlderized US and an uncut British version, so if either of you ever gets around to it, make sure to get the British version (more episodes, longer). The US one isn't just cut for sex but also for politics, as apparantly they thought you Colonials would not care for more complicated parliamentary manoeuvres. Wiki has more on the differences between the US and the UK version.

ETA: and of course I need to link this Horrible Histories song!

Edited 2019-12-10 17:00 (UTC)

This is amazing! Bookmarking to check out after December of Doom :) I have actually seen your review of The Favourite, which made me want to watch it, although (of course) I have not actually gotten around to it. But this may be the impetus :D

but other than that, she seems to have lived the unapologetic life of a rococo superstar on her terms - good for her!

I meant to say: yes, she did, and good for her!

Frederick the Great, discussion post 6

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Fritz and Voltaire

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Stuarts related preparation links

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