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Frederick the Great, discussion post 5: or: Yuletide requests are out!
All Yuletide requests are out!
Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!
-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)
Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!
-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French
-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...
Master link to Frederick the Great posts and associated online links
Yuletide related:
-it is sad that I can't watch opera quickly enough these days to have offered any of them, these requests are delightful!
-That is... sure a lot of prompts for MCS/Jingyan. But happily some that are not :D (I like MCS/Jingyan! But there are So Many Other characters!)
Frederician-specific:
-I am so excited someone requested Fritz/Voltaire, please someone write it!!
-I also really want someone to write that request for Poniatowski, although that is... definitely a niche request, even for this niche fandom. But he has memoirs?? apparently they are translated from Polish into French
-But while we are waiting/writing/etc., check out this crack commentfic where Heinrich and Franz Stefan are drinking together while Maria Theresia and Frederick the Great have their secret summit, which turns into a plot to marry the future Emperor Joseph to Fritz...
Master link to Frederick the Great posts and associated online links
Chronicle of an undercover visit
Haven't checked out the war stuff yet, but his description of Joseph's visit to Paris is great and also of interest in what it says about how such semi-official visits were handled. (And why it would have been a hell of a bother if Joseph had come officially. Versailles protocol was strict, and the problem alone of the Emperor outranking the King, and in which order which noble had to be received, when it came to seating arrangements would have been a headache. Whereas since officially Joseph was "Graf Falkenstein", he could basically come and go as he wanted and nobles could say hello in whichever order, etc.) (If Fritz had ever made a state visit to Paris, it would have been almost as big a problem - he didn't outrank Louis, but equal rank was a headache, too.) (This was why Wilhelmine travelled as the Gräfin Zollern when being in France, too.)
Now, our diarist is an old fashioned gentlemen who, for example, firmly disapproves of mistresses but once he actually met Pompadour and Dubarry, he found he liked them. He even kept in contact with Dubarry post regime change, and thus learns Joseph has been visiting her as well. (But sadly not what was said. Anyway, I find this intriguing, because there really is no political reason to visit the mistress of a dead king who has zilch current influence and also, since she started out from the gutter, no powerful family to placate.) Having actively fought against Joseph's Mom, he's also sometimes startled at himself for getting along with people who "shed French blood" (that's one way of putting it, Duke, given who started this war) at all, but is positively impressed by ViennaJoe. (Who might be travelling under an alias, but not really in secret. I.e. most people he met knew who he was. They just didn't have to go through elaborate ceremonies.)
The Duke notes that en route through France, Joseph got a lot of popular love in Lorraine, FS's old dukedom (that was given to France as a bribe to accept the Pragmatic Sanction which they kept and promptly ignored anyway), but both impresses and somewhat irritates people by visiting hospitals and cadet schools because "he kept commenting perhaps a bit too accurately", down to arguing anatomy with, for example, the chief surgeon in Metz. (Yep, he's modeled himself on Fritz, alright.)
The first sight the Duke himself catches of Joseph is "a shaby German chaise with post horses driving quickly", with only wet two servants(it's raining) and another one on horseback. ("That's how they always travel in Germany, no matter in which weather or during which time of the year, in open and very ugly carriages.") The Duke is a bit shocked that the HRE is really taking this travelling anonymously thing this far. I mean. One carriage! Three servants only! Horror!
Joseph is en route the Petit Luxembourg where he'll stay during his time in Paris (whereas sister Mimi wasn't allowed to go there, either, when she came later), and presents himself in Versailles on Saturday, April 19th, at a quarter past ten in the morning. The Duke notes Joseph first spends a while locked away alone with MA, then with MA and Louis, the gets presented to the rest of the royal family (the aunts, Louis' brothers and sister): "He appeared as a respectful foreigner who wants to please his hosts. He even wanted to meet the little Duc d'Angouleme." (That would be Louis' kid nephew.) Now it's (public) lunchtime and of course tout Versailles is ogling the Royal family & guest having lunch. ("We noted that he" - Joseph - "drank only water. He wasvery tanned from his travel.")
Next day, Joseph "in a terrible hired carriage" visits the local hospitals (again) ("out of preference or calculation, he seems to be mainly interested in hospitals, universities and all that serves humanity. The evening, he spent at the opera. His French is flawless, he speaks smoothly and wittily, if at times with a German grammatical construction."
The Duke approves less of the fact that Joseph rises at an ungodly early time though he notes that gives Joseph space for more tourist stuff. At half past one, Joseph joins his sister at the Trianon where they lunch a deux without any courtiers (what is going on, wonders the Duke). Or Louis, who has gone hunting. Then they go walking. This seems to be an Austrian habit, notes our narrator:
"Like her brother the Queen often enjoys taking the air, for the empress Maria Theresia has raised them without the former stiffness of the House of Habsburg." This evening, when Joseph enters one of the salons at Versailles without announcement, the Duke finally has the chance to pounce and talk to the visitor himself.
"The Emperor who appeared to be relieved being able to talk to someone and paid me compliments for more than fifteen minutes, and devoted himself exclusively to me with such pleasant and flattering words that it went swimmingly between us. (...) In order to say something, I directed the conversation towards the menagerie which he had visited this morning. He praised it a lot and said "In Vienna, we have a male elephant. Yours is female; I've got a mind to arrange a marriage!" Thus we jested for a while and I was tempted to say that I could imagine an even more important marriage project for him! "
(We're working on it, Duke, we're working on it.) Since it's getting late, Joseph doesn't return to Paris but stays overnight in Versailles, which means sleeping on the floor, since there's little room elsewhere. This shocks the Duke again.
"One notices he's in many ways modelling himself on Charles XII of Sweden and the King of Prussia. But it is strange that someone whom the King has officially adressed as the Queen's brother sleeps at an inn at Versailles on the floor!"
Still, he's won over by our boy. "All appears to be to his credit, and in a natural fashion, for he does not have the time nor the wish to consult a local advisor on manners. The ladies he met, that is, those with offices at Versailles, quite fancy him. But through all the gracious and friendly tone he used, he still remained the Emperor. He honors the education his noble mother has given him. He is sixandthirty years old, and while he lives modestly, one notices he has learned to refine his taste through paying attention. As for myself, I looked at the elephant with great pleasure, which despite being an elephant cow is with nearly seven foot a tall example of its kind. It is at liberty to stroll through the Park each morning. Our rhino, which is unique in Europe, appears to have grown somewhat and amazed me. The camels, dromedars, lions and tigers made for an excellent menagerie, and I noted down the animals still lacking.
When I had changed my clothing, I went to the King's dinner, where I was surprised to hear "the Emperor has done this, the Emperor has done that" etc. Well, a certain difference between the two monarchs is undeniable."
Joseph's ongoing tourist program includes Notre Dame, the palace of justice to attend a trial, and more hospitals. The Duke doesn't have the chance to observe him closely again until he spots Joseph with MA in a salon where MA is gambling. "I observed him mainly because I heard him say that princes should not gamble at high stakes, for it was the money of their subjects they were gambling with - a hint to the Queen. I believe this irritated the Queen a lot. Since both of them are in awe of the Empress, their almighty and ruling mother, the Queen was surely afraid of what he would report in Vienna."
The Duke doesn't miss the symbolism of Joseph being here at al, for:
"If one considers that this famous man, despite the often simple people around him, is the heir of the House of Habsburg and thus as our natural enemy has caused much French blood to be shed, one is allowed to be quite amazed."
Joseph isn't a spoilsport for his sister's entertainment all the time, though, and visits the opera with her repeatedly, which allows the Duke to pounce again.
"He esteems our good French comedies. HIs departure seems to be imminent. He said that he prefers Italian music to our operas, but that Italian comedies were too silly for him, whereas he prefers our comedies in which one could admire the acting and could understand and explore every single character. He never voiced a political opinion and thus appeared inscrutable. When a lady asked him about his opinion on the American rebels, he replied: "Given my profession, Madame, I have to be a Royalist and am not allowed to praise any rebels." Thus he disguised his opinions."
As we get to the end of may, it's noticed that Joseph spends entire days (like May 29th) alone with the Queen and King, sans courtiers and with a lot of strolls through the park. The Duke is too dignified to speculate what they're talking about, he's just sure it's not politics. When Joseph takes off again (in the godawful morning of May 30th, WHY DO THESE GERMANS GET UP SO EARLY ALL THE TIME?), the Duke sums his Joseph impressions up:
"Given his ambition, his fondness of things military and his eagerness to express to succeed in everything, he may have threatening intentinos. And yet he dedicated himself to so many things it one hopes the amiability he's shown and the future years that will pass until the death of his mother will make him lord and master of all will help him grow calmer. Of our kingdom, he has surely won a good impression, and he's bound to love Paris and the French who admired him. All in all this partly dreaded visit has been success. Moreover, he has served as an example to our court and given it an impression of true greatness."
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
he didn't outrank Louis, but equal rank was a headache, too
Indeed. I am reminded of the Field of Cloth of Gold.
Fritz's problem visiting France seems to be that he genuinely wanted to be incognito, and canceled the trip once that was no longer an option. Although I don't have the primary source on that, so grain of salt, etc., etc.
"In Vienna, we have a male elephant. Yours is female; I've got a mind to arrange a marriage!" Thus we jested for a while and I was tempted to say that I could imagine an even more important marriage project for him!"
LOLOL! Those wacky marriage projects.
in the godawful morning of May 30th, WHY DO THESE GERMANS GET UP SO EARLY ALL THE TIME?
Haha, do we know how early is early? I am reminded of this line from one of Fritz's bios: "Frederick had inherited his minister August Friedrich Eichel from his father. Like Fredersdorf he was a friend in the shadows, his right-hand man and confidant in those moments when his pampered French wits were still asleep in their cots."
down to arguing anatomy with, for example, the chief surgeon in Metz
Lol, I was thinking, "Now what does that remind us of?" Mind you, there are anecdotes of Philip and Alexander doing the same thing, 2000 years earlier.
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
At least neither Joseph nor Fritz (had he gone) were the types to insist on wrestling the French king to show off their manliness only to get humiliatingly beaten in public. :)
(BTW, the rank and status problem, or rather, the acknowledgment or lack of same: that's why I rolled my eyes - one of many times - when The Tudors had Charles V. pay an official state visit to Henry VIII's court and defer to him. In your dreams, Henry.)
(Though that's less tv lack of historicity and more anglo-centric pov with an utter lack of realisation as to what the HRE was, I suppose. And that has a long pre-tv tradition. For example, in Josephine Tey's drama Richard of Bordeaux - which btw I like otherwise - about Richard II - she has Anne of Bohemia, Richard's first wife, refer to herself as a girl from the back of beyond coming to the wonderful English court when marrying Richard. Ahem. Anne was the daughter of Emperor Charles IV, most powerful man of his time. She was the sister of another HRE. She did not marry upwards in this match. Her father's court (mainly in Prague), far from being the back of beyond, was the most cultivated of its time, it was multilingual - her father was fluent in Latin, German, French, Bohemian and Italian - and multinational. But yeah, sure, coming to that island where Richard was thought to be decadent for using forks and hankerchief must have been really dazzling to a poor country girl like her.
Haha, do we know how early is early?
In this particulare case, the Duke writes Joseph and his ugly German carriage leave "at dawn", and since it's May 30th, I'm assuming around 5 am-ish?
Lol, I was thinking, "Now what does that remind us of?" Mind you, there are anecdotes of Philip and Alexander doing the same thing, 2000 years earlier.
Note that Louis XV is utterly lacking in inclination to lecture people about their fields of expertise, though sadly also lacking in inclination to take an interest in anything that's not fun and distracting to him. Like governing.
LOLOL! Those wacky marriage projects.
I would say "well, Joseph is a Habsburg and they take their family motto seriously", but you know, marrying relations off to strategic advantage was what Fritz did a lot, too. Though he probably drew the line at elephants. :)
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Henry VIII, at his prime, i.e. not yet fat and an active sportsman but most certainly already his macho self: So, Francis, this summit may be to foster peace but hey, want to get beaten by me, err, I mean, wrestle a bit?
Henry's courtiers: Agincourt, Agincourt! Show that French guy what's what!
Francis I *sophisticated Renaissance guy, Leonardo da Vinci fan and fans of all things Italy, future father-in-law to Catherine de Medici*: Sure, why not.
You people never remember who actually won the 100 Years War, do you?Henry & Francis: *wrestle*
Henry: Agin - Hang on. Are you - why are you winning? How can you win? At wrestling? AGAINST ME? What about Agincourt?
Francis: It's called tactics and gravity, mon ami.
Henry: *never ever gets over being beaten in public, tries to have his own Agincourt periodically for the rest of his life, fails miserably at it*
If you want the more sober version, it's here.
Field of Cloth of Gold
Ahahaha, thank you for the link. Wikipedia was not very helpful on this point :)
Re: Field of Cloth of Gold
Merrie Olde England
Whuuuhh? Wow. That is some wishful thinking right there.
I mean, it's been waaay too long since I even looked at the period in question, and it was never "my period," so I could be misremembering, but didn't Matilda/Maud, a couple centuries earlier, alienate her English subjects during the civil war by considering herself Empress of the Romans first, and Queen of England/Lady of the English second? Granted a lot can change in a couple centuries, but I don't think England becoming *that* prestigious to Continental Europeans was one.
Matilda/Maud,
Unfortunately for her, she was not as successful as MT. She never managed to be formally crowned, and though she contended with him for a long time and had a following, Stephen is the one recognized as king during this period, and she does not get listed as queen in most of the regnal histories, or if so is parenthesized and asterisked. Eventually, she gave up and went back to Normandy (all the rulers of England at this point were descended from Norman William the Conqueror and saw themselves as Normans at least as much, if not more than, rulers of England). Her son continued waging war on Stephen, and eventually there was a treaty in 1153 that recognized Stephen as king until his death, and Matilda's son Henry II as his heir.
Oh, the Holy Roman Empress thing comes in because she was married by her father to Henry V of the HRE when she was young. Very young, as I recall. Okay, Wikipedia says 12. Yep, pretty young. He died about ten years later, and she came home, but she never stopped seeing being empress as her primary claim to fame.
Also, her name is Matilda or Maude, depending on whether you go with the Germanic or French version--both are common in histories--and that's useful, because the name of literally every other woman at the time is also Matilda. Her mother was named Matilda, her father's mother (wife of William the Conqueror) was named Matilda, her cousin Stephen's wife was named Matilda, and it gets really really confusing, really really fast.
Oh, and the one anecdote about her that entered into popular legend that I still remember is that she was being held prisoner by Stephen's forces in a castle, and she made herself a rope out of blankets (??) and lowered herself out the window. It was winter, and everything was covered in snow, so she wore a white nightgown for camouflage, and her escape was successful.
As for Stephen...Wikipedia doesn't have this particular anecdote, but I remember him, aside from being a misogynist, being portrayed as a general softy. Whether you as a historian think this makes him weak or not depends on how much ruthlessness you think is acceptable or necessary in a monarch. But the anecdote I'm remembering, if I'm not thinking of someone else, was that he took a kid hostage and told his father not to do such-and-such in support of Matilda, or he'd kill the guy's son. Bluff called.
Hostage's dad: Fine, kill the kid. I can have another one.
Stephen: Dammit. I can't kill kids. Why did you have to go and put me in this position?
Stephen's supporters: You can't make threats and not follow through! That's what hostages are *for*! What the hell kind of king are you?
Stephen: One that has to sleep at night, dammit.
I feel like this gets contrasted with a case that happened when Stephen was younger and someone else (Henry I?) gouged out two boys' eyes when he had them as hostages? But I'm blanking on names and details.
Oh, man. I went and looked this up. I was right, but it even was worse than I remembered, or in some cases had even learned.
Henry I (Matilda's father, Stephen's uncle) was dealing with a rebellion by his illegitimate daughter Juliana and her husband Eustace. They exchanged hostages, Juliana/Eustace's kids in return for some other important kid belonging to someone on Henry's side. As the dispute went on, Eustace blinded the kid he had as hostage. Henry was then like, "Fine. Fuck it, we're blinding your kids. AKA MY GRANDKIDS."
Moral lesson ensues about how Henry is ruthless enough to be a good king while easy-go-lucky Stephen is not, or alternately how you might invite Stephen to dinner but not Henry. Your role model mileage may vary.
Anyway. This part I learned. Then there's the followup, which I am pretty sure (!!) I did not.
So now Juliana is pissed off and decides to take possession of a castle and put up a fight against Dad. During a truce with her father--a truce!--Juliana fires a bolt from a crossbow at him, but misses. Oops! Henry manages to take the castle from his daughter, but she swims across the moat of freezing water and escapes to join her husband Eustace.
Wow.
See, history is just full of things you never learn in school. And European royals are one big dysfunctional family.
Re: Merrie Olde England
Re: Merrie Olde England
The hostage kid Stephen didn't find himself able to kill was William Marshal, Guillaume le Marechal, as an adult the most famous knight of his era, which is why we have this story. William became bff with Eleanor's and Henry's oldest son Henry (usually nicknamed Hal in novels to differentiate him from his father), after his death entered Henry's service, and lived long enough (i.e. through the reigns of Richard and John) to become regent for John's son the future Henry III.
The problem with Stephen sparing him was indeed that he'd made the threat in the first place and then not following through; not least because there were a lot of nobles, not all supporting Maude but several just in business for themselves, who then revolted and had to be bribed back into following him. "Go raide a few lands and monasteries, have the King reward you with money and more lands so you don't support his cousin Maude" became the tried and true method of noble enrichment, which is why this period is often refered to as "the anarchy".
I've always liked this summary of Maude and Stephen by Sharon Penman in the afterword of her novel about them: It might be said that both Stephen and Maude were victims of their age, for the twelfth century was not friendly terrain for a too-forgiving king or a sovereign queen. HIstory has not been kind to either of them. In Maude's case, I think the judgement might be overly harsh, for if you study her past, you find three Maudes. There was the young woman who made a succssful marriage to a manic depressive and so endeared herself to her German subjects that they were loath to see her return to England and in fact petioned her not to. There was the aging matriarch who passed her last years in Normandy, on excellent terms with the Church and her royal son, respected for the sage counsel she gave Henry. In between, there was the harpy, the termagant so reviled by English chroniclers, whose mistakes were exaggarated and magnified by the hostile male monks writing her history.
Maude could be infuriating and exaspaerating, but she had great courage, and she never lost a certain prickly integrity. As for Stephen, I think the truest verdict was one passed by a contemporary chronicler: "He was a mild man, gentle and good, and did no justice."
Re: Merrie Olde England
Re: Merrie Olde England
But the question that led to all this: do you know if I was right about Matilda seeing her most important title as that of Empress of the Romans and the English not being too pleased about this, or if I was misremembering? A quick skim of Wikipedia did not enlighten me one way or the other.
why this period is often refered to as "the anarchy".
And unofficially, as the period "when Christ and his saints slept," which is a phrase taken from a contemporary chronicler, and is also the title of that novel to which
Re: Merrie Olde England
Honestly, I don't know, because I never read a non-fiction book about Matilda specifically (non-fiction biographies of her daughter-in-law didn't cover this), but the impression I did get from a variety of novels was that individual acts aside, what the English (or rather, the Norman barons having holdings in England - Matilda/Maude was the granddaughter of William the Conqueror, after all, and talking about "English" here is a bit misleading) were way more resentful about her second marriage than about her using the title from her first one. This was because Geoffrey d'Anjou, nicknamed "Plantagenet", wasn't Norman. He was Angevin. And of course being a man, her being Queen would mean that REALLY an Angevin would be ruling. Competition! Boo! Never mind that Geoffrey was years younger than Matilda, that her father had forced her to marry him and when she tried to leave him after a miserable first year had forced her to go back. (This was before she'd gotten pregnant with future Henry II.)
Now some of the novels also speculate that since Matilda had grown up and thus been schooled in the HRE (having been married with twelve), she might have been used to the type of deference an Emperor did get and thus was set on a confrontation course with her English (or "English", i.e. Norman) subjects to begin with. But to me that's massive projecting of the idea that anything British was automatically less authoritarian and more proto democratic. Her father, after all, was that charming gentlemen you described earlier who wasn't above blinding his grandkids to make a political point. His court was not one where you messed about with the King. What she probably did imprint on was that in her first marriage, her husband the Emperor despite or because of the age difference actually had included her a lot - German wiki says he had her with him on his various journeys, incuding to Italy when he was duking it out with the Pope in one of those power struggles a great many German Emperors had with a great many Popes, she got crowned as Empress as well, and at one point acted as regent for her husband in Italy when he was in the German speaking territories.
Re: Merrie Olde England
Re: Merrie Olde England
Haha, I read a Stephen/Maud-shipping romance that, while it was full of inaccuracies and implausibilities, was probably responsible for more of my vague memories persisting to this day than the few actual histories I read.
Re: Merrie Olde England
Re: Merrie Olde England
Re: Merrie Olde England
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Re: Merrie Olde England
Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
Firstly, like all his life, he's a (French) patriot, and when MT's Dad dies and Fritz pounces on Silesia, he's all for France joining the free for all (the plan then being to carry the war right to Vienna and end the House of Habsburg once and for all, with its lands being carved up not just between European powers but other German nobility, and Karl Albrecht of Wittelsbach subsequently ruling over a much smaller rearranged HRE. This to our young duke is a cause of joy, I mean, the centuries long Bourbons vs Habsburgs has gone through its latest iteration when MT's Dad was kicked out of Northern Spain and the Bourbon rule over Spain solidified. There is also zero expectation that the Austrians will put up a successful fight; as far as young de Croy is concerned, the "House of Habsburg has ended" with MT's father. She's a woman, yo, and the Lorraine guy is clearly not up to scratch.
Otoh, young de Croy is not at all blind and deaf when attending Karl Albrecht's coronation as Emperor in Frankfurt and thus describes the mood of the German population at the grand ceremony:
The proclamation especially detailed that the Empire had been orphaned after the death of Charles VI, and that the elector's college had according to law and without a dissenting voice voted the Prince Elector of Bavaria as King of the Romans - for obvious reasons, no one mentioned "King of Bohemia" - and that he was supposed to be recognized as such now by everyone. Then the archdeacon shouted a "Vivat Rex", and all attending (mostly Frenchmen) replied with the same call. One could hear the saluts shot from the city walls.
I have to add, though, that there wasn't a single exclamation of joy to be heard in the entire city. Instead, one felt a melancholic mood: nearly all of Germany seems to be angry about this choice. This has reasons. The Germans feel that it was solely the work of France, and partly enforced by our armies standing in Bohemia and Westphalia. They talk of an Emperor cut from French clothing, a puppet of the Cardinal Fleury and the Marechal de Belle-Isle. They also know that this Emperor, even if he was in the possession of Upper Austria and Bohemia, can't offer more than 18.000 men as an army and thus will never be able to stand up to France to which he ows his imperial throne. That thus, it is France deciding over the fate of the Empire, especially since it has split the princes of said Empire into almost equal factions. Moreover, the prince electorate of Bavaria and his house are now forced to incredible expenses which they only could raise by draining their countries dry, with Bavaria already having been in a miserable state. Thus, this day was great for France, the Cardinal and the Marshal, since the Empire recognized the ruler we have given it. For this succes, France has promised to each willing prince the territory he wants at the expense of the House of Habsburg, which will be destroyed. This might burden the Empire for years to come, and the people have been used to the rule of this House, being slaves to habit.
As for the new Emperor and his wife: The Emperor is not beautiful. He appears to be good-natured, though, and shy. The Empress is an ugly woman, very fat, red-faced, has big eyes, but she, too, appears good natured and very shy.
They were also soon out of a home, since on the day of Karl Albrecht's coronation, Austrian troops marched into Linz and were on their way to Munich. The Duke, a man after Fritz' own heart in this regard, keeps to referring to MT as "The Queen of Hungary" through all three Silesian Wars and the 7 Years War, though, and doesn't call her "the Empress" until the MA marriage to the Dauphin is arranged.
Now, when I earlier said the Duke basically disapproves of mistresses, I should have specified: low-born mistresses. He's okay with the noble type. But he's still won over by middle class Jeanne Poisson, laer the Marquise de Pompadeur, and lower class Dubarry. When Madame de Pompadour dies, he has this to say:
She will be greatly missed, for she was goodnatured and helped nearly all who have asked for her help. Thus one of the longest rules I have experienced in my life time ends. It started when she was twenty, in early 1745, and thus lasted nearly twenty years!
I suppose there were hardly any appointments and pardons that did not succeed through her. She only caused the dismissal of the three or four ministers who had tried to get rid of her first. She never did evil, or only if she was forced to, but in her time all kind of misery has happened in France, and so much money was spent in vain! Her death has been the most momentous event to happen in France for a long time. On the one hand, we now have to wait who will succeed in winning the unlimited trust of the King, for he needs someone to help him decide on appointments and pardons. And the entire court system could be toppled by this person. On the other hand, it was Madame de Pompadour who had brought our alliance with Austria into being and kept us loyal to it. Thus, it is now possible that we will have a renewed feud with the Queen of Hungary and have a new war instead of the peace we so direly need.
Not to worry, Duke; MT has no intention of feuding with France again. Note that while the Duke has praise for his King, too - "though nearing 60, he's still the most beautiful man at court", the Duke writes loyally - he's not deluded about his King's ability to rule on his lonesome. The Duke, otoh, decides together with his son to buy shares of the East India Company. Feud with England or not, that's clearly where the money lies. Not in France, alas.
Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
Or, maybe I'll just ask, tell me about how Mme de Pompadour brought their alliance with Austria into being?? :)
She's a woman, yo
(it is your fault that my brain immediately capitalized WOMAN)
Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
Or, maybe I'll just ask, tell me about how Mme de Pompadour brought their alliance with Austria into being??
I'm currently on the road again and thus separated from most of my books, but things to bear in mind before I proceed with what I recall:
- just how unthinkable a France/Austria alliance was at the time, due to all those centuries of enmity. Not for nothing would poor Marie Antoinette be nicknamed "L'Autriechienne", the Austrian (also a pun on "l'autrie chienne", the other dog), as a derogatory term. We're talking long established loathing and nobody but nobody assuming this would ever change, not least because France was the first to jump on the "let's attack MT" train after Fritz started it with invading Silesia
- Fritz' tendency to go Frank Miller on any prominent woman other than a very few, usually related to him, and call them whores. Mme de Pompadour (as well as the Czarina Elizabeth) were of course the most prominent examples.
- Fritz having left the French in the lurch once he got what he wanted (Silesia), this resulting in the Austrians winning against the French
Kaunitz, MT's (and later Joseph's) PM, at this point new in the business: I have this secret master plan to make Fritz a margrave again.
MT: I'm listening.
Kaunitz: It involves allying ourselves with the French and the Russians.
MT: Still listening, but will the French? Last I heard, Louis (XV) and his cabinet still call me "The Queen of Hungary" and hate our guts.
Kaunitz: .... well, how about we approach the King's mistress for help? She's a smart woman and not too fond of being constantly called a whore. I mean, I know you're really opposed to extramarital sex yourself, your highness, but Louis is the biggest practicioner of them all, and we're talking to him anyway. Remember the end goal!
MT: Still listening.
Austrian Ambassador: So, my sovereign wonders whether you could possibly influence the King to sign up in an anti-Fritz-league?
Pompadour: This country sure needs a new policy. We've been stuck in a rut since Louis XIV. Sign me on. But make it a strictly defense pact at first, that'll make it easier to sell it to Louis. To become a fighting alliance only if Fritz attacks first.
MT in Vienna: eh, he's bound to, being him. Okay, convey my thanks to the Marquise.
Elizabeth in Russia: *joins up as well, on the same condition*
Fritz: *hears about MT, Elizabeth and Pompadour ganging up on him* I'm the modern Orpheus, persecuted by a gang of women who want to tear me apart. Okay, time to pre-emptively invade Saxony.
7 Years War: begins
Fritz: *wins early victories*
Louis: Darling, was that really a good idea? I mean, I can't stand the man, either, but the Austrians are our traditional enemies and the Prussians our traditional allies, so...
Pompadour: Look, if there's one thing the last decade or two have shown, it's that the current King of Prussia is the worst ally ever. Whereas MT might have no sense of fashion and no appreciation for Voltaire, but she's loyal. She's never screwed over a single one of her allies and supporters.
France: *stays in*
Fritz: *starts losing battles*
Wilhelmine: I'm really worried about your life, bro. Of course you're still the greatest military genius over, but you're not immune to bullets, and you're in the field a lot. Do you think you could maybe try for a separate peace with France? I could play unofficial ambassador via the mail, because people still write to me, and vice versa.
Fritz: Not that I'm afraid of anything, but you're in a bad state of health, and thus, solely to indulge you... maybe? Theoretically.
Wilhelmine: Obviously, the person to ask, DIPLOMATICALLY, is the Marquise de Pompadour, if that's cool with you?
Fritz: Eh. Why not. Tell her I'm willing to pay up to XXXXX Francs (sorry, I can't remember the exact sum from the letter), that should cover it.
Pompadour: Dear mutual friend, tell the Margravine to tell her brother this is one whore he'll never be able to afford. If he wants peace, he can send an official emissary to his majesty the king. And the Empress.
Fritz: Women! *writes a satirical pamphlet/forgery consisting of a supposed letter from MT to the Marquise which a lot of contemporaries take for the genuine article, with MT calling Pompadour "dearest sister"; this was meant to, and did cause indignation about MT being a hypocrite and traitor to royal dignity for negotiating with a whore*
Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
literally was trained to become a royal mistress one day by her ambitious mother (despite not being of noble blood, which until then was a strict condition)
I gotta wonder how that even works. "This has never been possible before... but on the off chance that it is... you're going to do it, daughter!" No wait, on second thought, I've known a bunch of tiger moms, it just goes to show that some things transcend the ages, and one of them is over-ambitious moms who sometimes actually succeed.
When she married, she did warn her husband what she had in mind, but promised she would be loyal otherwise. (He became the father of her only daughter.)
That is suuuuper interesting.
In her most famous portrait, she's depicting holding a copy of the dictionary by Diderot and D'Alembert, which is a statement because that book was forbidden by censorship at the time.
So by the time I got to the end of htis paragraph, and before I even got to Austria, I was wondering if there is a decent biography of her I can look at. The first one that comes up at Amazon is by Nancy Mitford, which I'm discarding from consideration, of course. Do you happen to know any? I also came across the memoirs of one of her maids, which I've downloaded.
Pompadour: This country sure needs a new policy. We've been stuck in a rut since Louis XIV. Sign me on. But make it a strictly defense pact at first, that'll make it easier to sell it to Louis. To become a fighting alliance only if Fritz attacks first.
MT in Vienna: eh, he's bound to, being him. Okay, convey my thanks to the Marquise.
HEE.
Fritz: *hears about MT, Elizabeth and Pompadour ganging up on him* I'm the modern Orpheus, persecuted by a gang of women who want to tear me apart. Okay, time to pre-emptively invade Saxony.
As usual, all together: oh Fritz.
Pompadour: Dear mutual friend, tell the Margravine to tell her brother this is one whore he'll never be able to afford.
OMG she is awesome!
Re: Chronicle of a a failed foreign policy venture
But here are some nice things to look at, from the Doctor Who episode starring her. Basic background info for non-Whovians - the Doctor is an alien time traveller, but in this particular case, the way he keeps running into Reinette (btw that was an actual nickname, the episode didn't make that up, and that her mother nicknamed her "little Queen" already tells you all about her mother) isn't by his usual means of (time) transportation but via a portal in a mysterious space ship he and his friends are stranded on, full of automatons that want something from Reinette and keep showing up at different points in her life via said portal. Our hero follows and thus runs into her as well, first as a child, then as an adult.
first time the Doctor meets an adult Reinette, played by Sophia Myles who manages to radiate intelligence and mischief beautifully.
Rokoko era mindmeld, as the Doctor tries to figure out what the hell the automatons want from Reinette
Versailles under attack, and Reinette shows why she's the first woman of France
Doctor Who
(also I have to watch Doctor Who, don't I :P )
Re: Doctor Who
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
"Given my profession, Madame, I have to be a Royalist and am not allowed to praise any rebels."
hee, I love it!
(We're working on it, Duke, we're working on it.)
lol forever!
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit
Me too. This actually had been a tricky question, because on the one hand, France was supporting the American rebels as part of its anti-British policy, but on the other, the King of England, good old George III, was still also Prince Elector of Hannover, and thus a key peer in the HRE. Which Joseph was the ruler of. So both "yay rebels!" and "rebels are the worst!" would have been a slight to someone. This being said, I think the phrase does allow speculation he might have had sneaking sympathies overseas nonetheless.
Re: Chronicle of an undercover visit