cahn | Frederick the Great, discussion post 5: or: Yuletide requests are out!

Hm, I don’t recall any reference to pre-destination in her letters (which weren’t written for public consumption), and she’s certainly cheerfully flippant about paying her respects to Calvinism in Geneva, but that’s Wilhelmine in conversation with her siblings, mainly (though not exclusively) Fritz the free thinker. And as you say, Wilhelmine in 1730 doesn’t have to have the same beliefs (or lack of same) she has in the 1740s and 50s.

In 1730, she’s under double pressure from both her parents (though for different ends) and separated from Fritz for the time being, and perhaps inclined to grab at any spiritual weapons she can find - both to win her argument with SD and to survive FW.

Then again: I’ve read the transcription of a speech about Wilhelmine given at the University of Bayreuth where the historian giving it says reading through the letters, she finds it striking that Wilhelmine despite her powerful resentment against both her parents (which btw is one of the way she differs from Fritz who I don’t think resented his mother) also never quite manages not to long for their approval and affection, and that her childhood had left her with the ability to lie and dissemble as much as it did Fritz. For example: when after the birth of her daughter her father-in-law, the old Margrave, gifts her a small estate complete with country mansion as a kind of reward, Wilhelmine writes three different letters to Prussia each tailored to their recipient: SD gets a letter about how her marriage is a success, her father-in-law has given her this gift and she’s now able to have concerts and parties in the mansion the way SD does at Monbijou, isn’t this nice? She’s so happy. FW gets a letter where her father-in-law has given her a country estate which she will frugally manage, and included in the package are some sausages which she knows FW will like, are you impressed with me being a good housewife, Dad? (Concerts and salons don’t get mentioned, but here, too, she assures her father she’s having a good life in Bayreuth.) And Fritz gets a letter where the new country mansion isn’t mentioned at all, which is all “miss you, people here are mostly boring and suck, ugh, at least it’s not home but home is still better if you are there”.

To get back to 1730, you have to also consider FW has accused her not just of having aided and abetted her brother but of having slept with her brother’s ~~lover~~ Bff, and he did that in the present of non-family members. Grabbing at a Protestant belief her father can’t object to - it’ s not Catholic, it’ s Protestant - but which is nonetheless very upsetting to him might accomplish the double purpose of reaffirming/restoring her reputation and retaliating. If she also knows Fritz is currently arguing pro pre destination at Küstrin, it’s also a way of expressing solidarity that can’t be held against her because again, this isn’t French philosophy, this is a quite popular Protestant interpretation of faith.

ETA: Okay, looked up some more theology in ye early 1730s quotes for you, helpfully already excerpted by a Bayreuth website. In letter 34 (“de la Margrave à Frèdèric (Baireuth, 20 dècembre 1735”) Wilhelmine talks philosophy with Fritz and explains her teacher La Croze’s theory that all things Material consist of atoms moving ceaselessly, but also that said atoms can’t have started this movement by themselves. From this, she concludes there has to be an absolute and independent being („un être absolu et indépendant“) which keeps the atoms moving. Which means there’s a God („cet être est Dieu“). This to me sounds like she’s a deist (comparable to what a great man enlightenment people saw themselves at).

Also, her father had her old governess Fräulein von Sonsfeld (Sonsine) who’d gone with Wilhelmine write to him a report as to how Wilhelmine’s day looks like. Sonsine swears that she reads a bit of the bible to Wilhelmine each morning right after breakfeast while Wilhelmine is doing womanly needlework with her ladies-in-waiting. This, err, is not quite how Wilhelmine describes her days to Fritz, and conspiciously lacks any mentions of concerts, composing and garden plannings which we know she did, so at a guess, Sonsine was covering for her, but it says something about FWs control fetish that he wants even his married off daughter to be supervised and to prove herself a good Christian.

Edited 2019-11-08 13:02 (UTC)

Argh, I will respond to the rest of these awesome comments later, but yeah, the thing that surprises me most in this whole thing is that you are saying FW objected to predestination? How is that even possible, as a good Protestant? :)

But yeah, I seem to remember that my reading was that Wilhelmine kind of hit on it as a method to protest about the whole marriage thing to SD in a way SD and FW couldn't object to; I didn't get the impression she was super committed to it. And is SD really going to tell FW that Wilhelmine is using a method he might not approve of to get out of promising to adhere to a marriage he is totally against? (SD seems to undermine herself sometimes, so maybe? but I can see Wilhelmine taking that gamble.) But I should go back and look when I have time.

Sonsine swears that she reads a bit of the bible to Wilhelmine each morning right after breakfeast while Wilhelmine is doing womanly needlework with her ladies-in-waiting. This, err, is not quite how Wilhelmine describes her days to Fritz

I have a very good impression of Sonsine from the memoirs <3 Haha, I can imagine that Sonsine did that... for about five minutes. Then she can swear to it and Wilhelmine can go off and do her music and gardens. :D

To quote from a biograpy ("Der erste Diener des Staates"), translation from Germain into English is mine:

"The originally Lutheran princes electors of the House of Brandenburg had with Johann Sigismund's conversion in the year 1631 accepted the reformed faith." (I.e. Calvinism as opposed to Lutheran Protestantism.) "In that doctrine, FW, too had been raised. His teacher Rebeur" - why yes, FW had a French Huguenot teacher, are you suprised? He also had a French nurse and a French governess and actually learned German as a second language - "had terrorized the wild and hot tempered crown prince into obedience. Especially the teaching of predestination, being chosen by God, in wich the middle class self confidence of the Calvinists expressed itself had been Rebeur's main means of frightening his student. His adolescent experience, the deep life long fear not to be one of the Chosen Ones caused Friedrich Wilhelm to reject this particular doctrine which the German version of Calvinism had largely abandoned anyway by the time he'd reached his majority. In his state, predestination doctrine was actively fought. It was completely left out of his son's education plan.

For said son, however, it became a tool to fight his father's expectations. (...) If God predestined the path a person chose, thus Friedrich concluded from predestination, then God had also formed a man's character, so how could another man's will change this character? This claim to his individuality lay at the core of his acceptance of the predestination doctrine."

Edited 2019-11-08 17:59 (UTC)

I'm glad the author agrees Fritz's predestination was an act of resistance and asserting his own identity. I think my surprise was because I expect Fritz to court danger out of sheer resistance like that, but not Wilhelmine. But, idk, maybe I'm just overestimating how much FW was willing to beat his kids up over it, because it's linked so inextricably in my head with Küstrin:

- FW has a chaplain standing by in the room while Katte's head is cut off, ready to bring Fritz back to the true faith (foiled by Fritz promptly fainting and becoming hysterical for 3 days).
- Much of the correspondence during the post-Katte rehabilitation period is months and months of FW going WHEN WILL HE GIVE IN ALREADY? on the subject of predestination.
- Rejecting it was one of the first things Fritz was required to do during that reconciliation with his father, in which he falls to his knees and agrees that his father is right about everything and he'll do anything his father wants forever and ever, just PLEASE let him out of Küstrin ~~so he can go back to sneaking around and doing and thinking whatever he wants.~~

But maybe Wilhelmine didn't feel more unsafe than usual professing it in the lead-up to Küstrin, especially if she didn't do so to her father's face. I don't actually have any accounts of him beating either her or Fritz up over this doctrine specifically. Just being really, really opposed to it.

If it was his own deepest childhood fear they accidentally (?) tapped into, no wonder.

I mean, the impression I get is that it went thusly:

*Tiny terror FW beats up future G2, mouths back at M. Rebeur*

R: Good lord, that kid is a handful. How to deal? I know! Predestination! Now, your highness, little boys who are naughty just prove they weren't chosen by God and will go to hell. Let me tell you all about hell. *uses 1700 years of imagery to tap into*

FW *after a lot of nightmares*: That's awful. Screw you, and predestination, and anything French! That all sucks. In MY state, we're going to be good Christians without any of that. MY kids aren't going to learn anything about it.

Posterity: No, your kids are going to afraid of you instead.

Minus the bit about beating up future G2--which I still haven't run across, to my dismay!--that's my impression too. Man, history is everyone having PTSD at each other. (And specifically, punching down.)

Bit about beating up future G2: it's in his German language wiki entry, though not in the English version, in the subsection "Am Hannoverschen Hof", and said wiki entry does provide footnotes as to the source of that particular story: Peter Baumgart: Friedrich Wilhelm I. (1713–1740). In: Frank-Lothar Kroll (Hrsg.): Preußens Herrscher. Von den ersten Hohenzollern bis Wilhelm II. 2., ergänzte und erweiterte Auflage. Verlag C.H. Beck, München 2009, S. 135.
Karl Eduard Vehse: Preussens Könige Privat. Berliner Hofgeschichten. Anaconda Verlag, Köln 2006, S. 57.

Ah, thank you. I have always thought (as someone who was not brought up Lutheran, but is sort of Lutheran-by-marriage) predestination can be dodgy in terms of practical implementation for how people regard it, leaving completely aside the theology, and it's interesting to see that play out in practice.

If God predestined the path a person chose, thus Friedrich concluded from predestination, then God had also formed a man's character, so how could another man's will change this character?

Hm. I don't know that I entirely agree with you (Fritz) logically speaking, although I see your overall point :P

Fritz: I JUST WANT TO PLAY THE FLUTE DAD OKAY?? STOP HITTING ME :`(

I have a very good impression of Sonsine from the memoirs <3

Same!

Haha, I can imagine that Sonsine did that... for about five minutes. Then she can swear to it and Wilhelmine can go off and do her music and gardens. :D

Agree! This is my impression of almost anyone who had anything to do with young Fritz.

FW: Make my wretched son do X!

Sane person: Yes, Your Majesty! Right away, Your Majesty!

Sane person: Okay, Fritz, he's gone. We will now proceed to observe the letter of what he said and do total violence to the spirit.

Fritz: I am coming through my upbringing with my personality basically intact, due to the vast amounts of outside validation telling me it's not me, it's Dad.

selenak, are you familiar with the anecdote about FW ordering a military haircut for Fritz as a little boy, Fritz crying, and the haircutter managing to keep some of the curls while kinda sorta making it pass as a military haircut, from a distance? I've only seen this recounted without any sources cited at all, and would love to know if it's real.

Nope, sorry, am not. The two recent bios I read don't mention it. The instant problem I see her is that FW was close enough any number of times that "military cut from a distance" would not work, and also that 18th century hair styles aren't comparable with modern ones, including what soldiers wore. The very term "military cut" makes me distrustful, because that sounds very 20th century USian. I mean: even your avarage non-noble Prussian soldier wore a)a wig, and b)if no wig, then his hair at shoulder length and bound into a tail.

Trufax: cutting one's hair was the rebellious anti older generation thing to do two generations later at least in the German speaking territories. See also: French Revolution. A shorter cut was cool, longer hair old fashioned and conservative. Heinrich Heine in his his great satiric poem Deutschland: Ein Wintermärchen makes fun of "Prussian tails" (of hair, he means).

Now granted,for female hair the French ancient regime fashion went to elaborate lengths, see also MA's legendary hairdos, but for men, I don't think so. Especially given that the periwig went out of fashion in FW's youth already.

Edited 2019-11-09 06:31 (UTC)

*nod* I had the same immediate objection to whether it would work. Although if he *is* wearing a wig when his father sees him, it might work a bit better?

And as for the question of cutting--I *thought* soldiers had to have a long but narrow queue in the back but hair cut shorter in the front and on top (both to keep the queue narrow and to make the wig sit easier)? Certainly judging by the pictures I've seen, and my experience braiding my own hair when I had long hair, if you grow all your hair long and braid it, the result comes out approximately three times as thick as those pictures.

But I could be totally wrong about that. I do know FW objected to Fritz's hairstyle a lot, but I agree this particular anecdote seems rather unsubstantiated. It's in keeping with the theme of "spirit but not letter," though, of which there are numerous substantiated examples.

Argh, I will respond to the rest of these awesome comments later

Awww, did you wake up to 6,000 words of comments again? SORRY NOT SORRY. :P

Also, thaaaank you both for giving me a venue for pretty much the only thing my concentration will allow me to do these days: flip through works of non-fiction looking for specific things and then ramble about them. It is sanity-saving not to be bored out of my mind while on medical leave.

haha, I can't keep up with you guys!

But I am always so excited to hear all this great ~~gossip~~ discussion :D

Tiny Terror FW

Fritz and Wilhelmine

Fritz and his brothers (the order the boys are depicted in: Fritz, Ferdinand, AW, Heinrich).

Edited 2019-11-09 12:14 (UTC)

I love these. Especially Fritz and Wilhelmine are adorable. Tiny Terror FW is actually kind of adorable too although I can totally imagine that kid beating up G2. (Also awww to Heinrich looking up to AW)

Re the second one, no citation given, but one of my bios says that, when Fritz was very small, "When one day the king saw his son beating a toy drum, he became so excited at this martial display that he summoned the court painter, Antoine Pesne, to record the scene."

#PolaroidMoment #18thCentury

Also, remember when Thronfolger FW doesn't want his family to fear him? And I quoted an anecdote about him beating up a Jew while shouting, "You should love me! Not fear me!"? A completely different bio says that FW's instructions to young Fritz's governors are still extant, and they contain, "You are to make him afraid of his mother, but of me, never." The biographer describes this as "curious."

Fear--I don't think it works how you think it works, FW.

"You are to make him afraid of his mother, but of me, never."

I can't decide whether to laugh or cry at this. FW, trying to play good cop and bad cop, and just failing miserably!

And as you say, Wilhelmine in 1730 doesn’t have to have the same beliefs (or lack of same) she has in the 1740s and 50s.

Yes, it's quite normal for people raised in a religion to take until their twenties (or later) to fully give it up.

he finds it striking that Wilhelmine despite her powerful resentment against both her parents (which btw is one of the way she differs from Fritz who I don’t think resented his mother) also never quite manages not to long for their approval and affection

Yep, that's extremely striking just from her memoirs. Standard child abuse stuff, comparable to adult Fritz badly wanting FW's approval decades after he died.

which btw is one of the way she differs from Fritz who I don’t think resented his mother

Agreed, I haven't seen any signs of him resenting her. I also haven't seen many signs of her mistreating him, but that could go either way. Either he didn't record the verbal abuse and Wilhelmine did because Wilhelmine resented it and Fritz was just so grateful to have an ally against his main enemy that he didn't feel the need to complain about it, or SD focused all of her verbal abuse on her daughter and Fritz got off light from her.

Wilhelmine presents herself as someone caught in the middle trying to achieve the impossible task of pleasing both her parents; Fritz comes across as someone locked in a non-stop battle of wills with his father; while both of them were trying to be true to themselves and loyal to each other in the face of parental resistance.

Man, it really, really sucked to be either of them.

This to me sounds like she’s a deist

Oh, yeah. That's 18th century Lucretian-informed deism right there. Interesting!

SD focused all of her verbal abuse on her daughter and Fritz got off light from her

That's my theory, not least because of the difference in gender. Fritz was the longed for surviving son and heir. He also was SD's key to future happiness, freedom and respect once FW was dead. And he moved out of her sphere and into her husband's after early childhood, which meant his visits in her household were treasured occasions where he could relax, enjoy art. He did not live in her proximity on a day to day basis.

Whereas Wilhelmine did. She also started out as a disappointment simply due to being a daughter, not a son, something that wasn't true so much for her younger sisters since at that point sons were already there. And then I think she became to SD a second chance to get the life SD herself wanted to have, second hand: Queen of England, not stuck in tiny Prussia with this awful, weird husband whose mannerisms make him the laughing stock of European princes. If she could accomplish that, then SD's life would not have been wasted. So anything that made it look like Wilhelmine wasn't 100% on board with becoming the second SD, the one who gets to be Queen of a powerful nation and live in style and admiration was a personal attack and betrayal.

(Note that Ulrike, the only one of the daughters who actually did become a Queen - of Sweden, granted, less glamorous than England, to be sure, but still, Queen - was also SD's favourite. Validation at last!)

To me, one of the most telling details remains that it needed Fritz' first governess to point out to SD that Leti was physically abusing Wilhelmine and would cripple her for life is this went on much longer. That Wilhelmine didn't feel she could tell this to her mother is of course not that uncommon in abuse situations, because the child is ashamed and feels it's her/his fault, and that doesn't necessarily signify how good or bad the parent/child situation is. Especially in a social situation where parents aren't the one doing the actual hands-on child raising but leave that to servants. But still. If an employee who is actually in charge of another kid is able to notice, I feel judgmental enough to say SD should have.

And then I think she became to SD a second chance to get the life SD herself wanted to have, second hand: Queen of England, not stuck in tiny Prussia with this awful, weird husband whose mannerisms make him the laughing stock of European princes.

Huh. This is making a lot of sense to me of a lot of what Wilhelmine says in her memoirs.

So part of me is thinking that presumably Fritz' governess, being both another servant and in charge of a child who plays a lot with Wilhelmine, is in fact somewhat more likely to notice than SD. But on the other hand I can't imagine, say, Maria Theresia not noticing her kid is getting beat up on a regular basis so badly she might get permanently crippled, whether the servants are raising the kid or not.

And then I think she became to SD a second chance to get the life SD herself wanted to have, second hand

I was actually going to say, it's really telling when Wilhelmine says that the English marriage project would be a perfect fit for her *mother*, but not for her at all. And it is super common for abusive or even emotionally neglectful parents to live vicariously through their children, which it's pretty clear SD is doing here. It's also probably how SD justified her verbal abuse (which she wouldn't have seen as such): she's trying to give her child the best life possible, so why is child so ungrateful??

Along with

cahn, I'm inclined to cut SD a tiny bit of slack, given that

1) Wilhelmine says she was straight out lying to her mother about where all the injuries were coming from.
2) My impression of the social dynamics is that servants have a whole separate grapevine amongst themselves, in which people like SD are not supposed to participate. Even if a governess is a step above, say, a parlormaid, there's still a communication divide. So a fellow governess might pick up on abuse first.

But yeah, it's not great, and SD is far from blameless in this episode.

So a fellow governess might pick up on abuse first.

That is, of course, true. BTW, one of the reasons why the Fritz Crime Boss AU you linked a while ago doesn't really work for me despite being in many regards well written is that AU!Wilhelmine was not abused in any way (other than having to witness what was done to Fritz) and otherwise has a good life, yet they still have their intense sibling bond. Honestly, I think that they were both abused, though not always in the same ways and by the same people, was a key ingredient to this you can't just remove without significantly altering the relationship itself. Leaving aside the question of how much of Fritz' feelings about AW carried resentment that AW was getting treated comparatively affectionate and lenient by FW:I don't think you can form an "us against the world" bond of that nature if the early life experience is so markedly different instead of "we're both in this hell together, but at least we have each other".

Heh. Yeah. My personal experience as a child of... difficult... parents (who are great in many ways, I should append) is that there was certainly a lot of "us against the world" bonding that took place with me and my sister (who are otherwise sufficiently different that we might not have had a close relationship otherwise), whereas D and his siblings, whose parents were basically perfect, seem not to have that bond (though they like each other a lot).

Hmm, I'm not entirely sure. I agree that the fic changes a *lot* of the external context and a lot of the characterization either directly or as a side effect, in combinations that don't always work for me, but two things:

1) I'd have to re-read, but I don't remember the AU bond coming across to me as quite so over-the-top intense in that fic as in real life. They're close, but they don't feel like "possible scandal that never happened because of his orientation/their low sex drives." Furthermore, she seems to need him *much* less in this AU than irl, and much less than he needs her.

2) I'm not entirely convinced a protective older sibling in an abuse situation wouldn't lead to a close (but not quite as borderline-romantically intense) relationship, especially one that's slanted more toward him needing her than vice versa. I would say the younger abused child might latch onto whatever affection he could get. (I do think the "older, protective" part is key--AW is a different kettle of fish.) For a fictional example of this dynamic that really works for me: Boromir and Faramir.

But I will think about this next time I reread the fic. It's an interesting thought.

Re: Wilhelmine

selenak - 2019-11-17 19:44 (UTC) - Expand

Frederick the Great, discussion post 5: or: Yuletide requests are out!

Re: Wilhelmine

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FW and predestination

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More illustrations - children paintings edition

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