cahn | Yuletide tags are out: Frederician version

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frederick the great

Yuletide tags are out: Frederician version

Come join us in this crazy Frederick the Great fandom and learn more about all these crazy associated people, like the star-crossed and heartbreaking romance between Maria Theresia's daughter Maria Christina and her daughter-in-law Isabella, wow.

OK, so, there are FOURTEEN characters nominated:
Anna Karolina Orzelska (Frederician RPF)
Elisabeth Christine von Preußen | Elisabeth Christine Queen of Prussia (Frederician RPF)
Francesco Algarotti (Frederician RPF)
François-Marie Arouet | Voltaire (Frederician RPF)
Friedrich II von Preußen | Frederick the Great (Frederician RPF)
Hans Hermann Von Katte (Frederician RPF)
Joseph II Holy Roman Emperor (Frederician RPF)
Maria Theresia | Maria Theresa of Austria (Frederician RPF)
Michael Gabriel Fredersdorf (Frederician RPF)
Peter Karl Christoph von Keith (Frederician RPF)
Sophia Dorothea of Hanover (Frederician RPF)
Stanisław August Poniatowski (Frederician RPF)
Wilhelmine von Preußen | Wilhelmine of Prussia (1709-1758) (Frederician RPF)
Yekatarina II Alekseyevna | Catherine the Great of Russia (Frederician RPF)

This means some fourth person kindly nominated Algarotti and -- I think? -- Stanislaw August Poniatowski! YAY! Thank you fourth person! Come be our friend! :D Yuletide is so great!

I am definitely requesting Maria Theresia, Wilhelmine, and Fritz (Put them in a room together. Shake. How big is the explosion?), and thinking about Elisabeth Christine, but maybe not this year.

I am also declaring this post another Frederician post, as the last one was getting out of hand. I think I'll still use that one as the overall index to these, though, to keep all the links in one place.

(seriously, every time I think the wild stories are done there is ANOTHER one)

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...Good grief, I've just come across his letter to Heinrich about AW dying for the first time. Mildred, you've probably read it before, but I hadn't. Cahn, bear in mind that Fritz had blamed AW for a lost battle in the 7-years-war and publically humiliated him ("you're suited for commanding a seraglio but not my army!" was one of the nicer things), and AW had lived just long enough thereafter to write a resentful "here's what really happened!" private memo, then die. (Of brain tumor, but contemporaries saw it as him dying of a broken heart.) Bear also in mind AW and Heinrich had been close. So, this is Fritz, writing to Heinrich, mid 7 years war (before Wilhelmine's death, in case you're wondering):

„I received the sad and painful news of my brother's death from Berlin. I am all the more crushed as I have always loved him tenderly, and I have always blamed all the trouble he has caused me on his weakness for bad advisors and his choleric temper which he could not always curb."

(The "bad advisors" were some of his best generals and Heinrich himself.)

Due to the kindness of his heart and all his good qualities, I suffered a lot of his conduct with patience, even as it was most irregular and meant he was failing in his duties towards me.

(Meaning: AW, who had joined the club of unhappy Hohenzollern marriages, had asked Fritz for permission to divorce his wife and marry his long term mistress. Fritz was livid.)

I know how tenderly you have loved him. I hope that after you have given free reign to love and human nature in your first hurt, you will make every effort a strong soul is capable of to of course not forget a brother whose image shall always live in your and my heart, but to limit the overabundance of a grief which could damage you. Please remember that in little more than a year, I have lost a mother I adored and a brother whom I have always had tender affection for. Please don't add to my current difficult situation another wound which your grief might inspire in you."

How Heinrich didn't desert to Austria on the spot, I don't kow. (The letter is quoted in this article about AW.) As it is, the famous "Fuck you, Fritz!" obelisk in Rheinsberg with AW's image on it is more understandable than ever.

Edited 2019-10-29 19:20 (UTC)

Yes. Yes, I have read it. I have paraphrased it here. I have linked to fanart someone else made about it on tumblr. It's that bad. It's part of why I was ranting about Fritz's "condolence" letters, and it's why I said I would actually be okay with it if EC did decide to use a red seal instead of black to announce Fritz's mother's death to him. Because retaliation mostly just makes things worse in life, but in the absence of an actual solution to the problem, sometimes you just have to keep your own self-respect. And using the red seal would have been a minor and forgivable act of retaliation.

The only thing I can say about Fritz's letter is that he may genuinely have meant the Stoic aspects of it to be comforting/good advice, and he seems to be telling Henry "If you were to, I don't know, die of grief like he did or otherwise become incapacitated, I would be upset because I care about you," but none of that excuses the "Me me me all about ME" "But what about MY feelings??" "Oh and don't forget there's a war on, bro" themes to this letter.

Also, I may have mentioned that this letter is practically paraphrased in Catt's memoirs, where Fritz also goes on about how much he loved AW and it was all the fault of those bad advisors coming between them (he does at least admit that he himself has a choleric temper he can't always control, BUT STILL), and basically how, lip service to his own faults aside, everything is everyone's fault except his. Scapegoating is honestly one of Fritz's least attractive qualities.

Obelisk: oh, yeah. This letter had a lot to do with that.

How Heinrich didn't desert to Austria on the spot, I don't kow.

I'm telling you, HE NEEDS THAT HOT PAGE.

He does indeed. Without having read the Eva Z. biography yet, German language internet tells me this about Heinrich's known love interest:

Marwitz the hot page: frustrating, no one ever mentions a first name. Was probably related to Marwitz the cheating lady-in-waiting, though whether as cousin or brother, no one mentions.

Mara the sexy violinist: already covered in my post about Gertrud Elisabeth Schmeling Mara.

Christian Ludwig von Kaphengst: described by Thibault in his memoirs as tall (Heinrich, like his father and brother, really wasn't), cheerful, witty and courageous, but also an incorrigble spendrift. (Like Mara the sexy violinist.) Heinrich gave him Schloß Meseberg - which today is used by our government to host guests of state in - and had to sell 29 paintings from his personal collection to Catherine in Russia in order to get the cash. Kaphengst wanted a promotion in the army, and Fritz bluntly refused to grant it, whereupon Kaphengst quit the army and got into more debts, so much so that he pawned his entire estates, and in 1784 Heinrich had to apply for a loan in France (aka the least financially solvent state in Europe) to bail him and the estates out, with Louis XVI. personally acting as guarantee for Heinrich's ability to keep his word. Heinrich got the money and covered the bail, but then also finally called it quits with Kaphengst.

(Catherine: I would never do that for my boy toys. Men are just too emotional to rule.)

In conclusion, I hope that to be read biography tells me at least one of Heinrich's guys was a bit more deserving and not mainly in it for the money, because otherwise this is depressing.

(Hey, here's a possibility for the incest shippers - Heinrich/Fritz hate sex?)

(Catherine: I would never do that for my boy toys. Men are just too emotional to rule.)

lol, I LOVE CATHERINE

Marwitz the hot page: frustrating, no one ever mentions a first name. Was probably related to Marwitz the cheating lady-in-waiting, though whether as cousin or brother, no one mentions.

Marwitzes : Hohenzollerns :: matter : antimatter

What little I know of Heinrich's love affairs is that Fritz was periodically having to give him money/aid to bail him out of situations like this. At one point Fritz said his occasional help with Heinrich's eventful love affairs was the only reason Heinrich was ~~not defecting to Austria on the spot~~ speaking to Fritz at all.

Also, I gather Fritz was kind of eyerolly about the love affairs. "~~See, I'm not a man-whore, like some people I could mention.~~ Or a whore-whore, Catherine."

Fritz: *dies alone*

Hate sex isn't my thing personally, but I can't deny the abundance of opportunity here!

I like hate sex myself, but I think I feel too bad for Heinrich to really go for it.

Fritz/Voltaire, where I kind of don't feel bad for either of them, I'm up for that :) (I suppose that would be less hate sex than... snarky sex?)

Fritz/Voltaire snark sex would be awesome. Also, they could maybe even get an exception from me about hate sex, mostly because it wasn't pure hate and they were really frenemies, and they'd been friends first. Actually, I think I would enjoy a dynamic where they'd been having sex before their falling-out, or at least flirting pretty damn hard, and then after the falling-out had at least one really intense sexual encounter full of passionate hate, snark, resentment, and "Where did our love go?" mutual disappointment.

...Okay, now I want someone to write that.

Oh yeah, I absolutely want Fritz/Voltaire snark, hatesex or otherwise :D Ahhhhhh it's too bad Yuletide doesn't let you request the same fandom twice!

IKR? I've been thinking that since this started. I would have signed up if I could have requested and offered different subsets of Frederician characters.

Oh, well. It's fun prompting each other and outlining fic ideas here. :D

You know, since treats are a thing, and you have a blanket "crackfic involving any of these characters" prompt already, maybe you could add that you'd be happy to receive treats for other characters that the limitations of Yuletide didn't allow you to formally request? I think that'd be fine? Since you've already got loads of prompts for the characters you did request. And then you could throw in a Fritz/Voltaire pairing ~~to your increasingly long list of Frederician prompts~~. ;)

ETA: mods have confirmed this is fine! There was a suggestion not to have your treat prompts outnumber requested character prompts, but everyone agreed non-requested-character treat prompts are totally kosher.

Me: Dooo eeeet!

ETA 2: You may already know this, but the mods have added that if you're okay with getting a subset of your nominated characters, this must be in your sign-up, not just your letter. Otherwise it causes them headaches when trying to decide if a submitted story meets the requirements or not.

Edited 2019-11-04 02:27 (UTC)

LOL, okay, I added that stricture in. Don't want it for my assignment, but if anyone wants to write me Fritz-Voltaire hatesex for a treat, I am not gonna say no to that. I mean, not that I know anyone who would do that :PPPPPP

And, yep, I did know that, thanks. I think I said this in previous comment -- I do actually want all nommed characters but I put in both letter and signup that it's OK if they don't all show up in person, just in thought/memory/discussion, since e.g. Wilhelmine might be dead by the time the summit actually happens.

Right, that makes sense.

I mean, not that I know anyone who would do that :PPPPPP

Who would do such a thing???? I can't imagine.

I mean, I don't have any inspiration at the moment, so I'm not planning to, but you know if that changes, then you'll have an interesting ~~totally anonymous~~ surprise on Dec 25. :PPP

Or MissM will! :D I am SO EXCITED that someone prompted Fritz/Voltaire!

Re: Fritz/Voltaire

mildred_of_midgard - 2019-11-07 20:45 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fritz/Voltaire

cahn - 2019-11-09 22:08 (UTC) - Expand

Re: Fritz/Voltaire

mildred_of_midgard - 2019-11-10 05:24 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, I knew it was bad, but... yeah. Heinrich. I'm feeling really bad for you. :(

Same here. I mean, one of the two biographies I read in recent months had recounted this as "After AW's death, Frederick tried to mollify his brother Heinrich". That's... one way of describing this letter, biographer.

BTW: this further proves the genius of my guy Goethe in making Carl August have dinner with Heinrich as a method of dissuading Carl August from joining Fritz' most recent war effort without saying that this was what he was doing.

Okay, playing devil's advocate here, the only redeeming value of that letter (and the subsequent letter, which is more of same) is that it's...it's complicated, but much of it is what Fritz tells *himself* when he loses someone he loves. Partly he's being callous, obviously he's scapegoating, but also I believe he's genuinely trying to be helpful and totally oblivious to the fact that this is NOT HELPFUL. (Especially when coming from someone who has a difficult relationship with Heinrich. Seriously, Fritz, don't try to be helpful. Just, "I'm really sorry about your loss, you must feel terrible, I loved him too, I still love you, let me know if you need anything, your servant, etc." and stop there. Seriously. NO ADVICE.)

Anyway, there are two main aspects of his letters to Heinrich after AW's death. One is, "I loved AW too, please don't think I didn't." Now, Fritz's (in)ability to 1) not fuck up family relations in the first place, 2) make amends when there's still time, 3) admit wrongdoing when it's too late, is the obvious major problem here. But given that, you can see the attempt at mollifying. This, of course, is where the saying "intent is not magic" comes in. But the attempt was there.

The second part is: the human condition and how to deal with grief. And this is something Fritz seriously struggled with all his life. He had a lot of practice. :/ And he was always torn between seeing the value of Stoicism and Stoic-influenced philosophy on the one hand, and on the other believing that the ability to form emotional bonds with people is what makes us human, and that anyone who can effortlessly brush off loss the way the Stoics want would not be human, and he's not even sure you want to be that person. Except it would hurt a hell of a lot less, so he kind of wants to be that person. But he can't in any case.

Reading the back and forth of his letters to and from Heinrich right after AW's death is eerily like reading an exchange inside Fritz's own head whenever someone he loved dies.

Fritz: I know it hurts; believe me, I've been there, and I'm actually pretty cut up about this particular loss too, but your duty requires you to carry on. <-- Something we know he frequently said to himself when he was tired and hurting and just wanted a break from it all.

Heinrich: Yes, I know, and I am and I will, please don't worry, but seriously, it's impossible for humans to not have any feeling at all. <-- What Fritz frequently said about himself when explaining how he spent the whole day crying instead of being philosophical.

Heinrich: Also, I'm pretty sure those who live away from human society are happier than princes. <-- What Fritz is known to have said after someone he loved died.

Fritz: Okay, I know what you're saying, but you can't let it get to you, you can't become a misanthrope. We are humans and we are part of society. <-- What Fritz, the misanthropically inclined, had to tell himself all the time. Yes, it comes across as hypocrisy whenever Fritz tells someone (Heinrich is not the only example) not to be a misanthrope, but I think he was actually not a committed misanthrope, but a traumatized-as-hell struggling-not-to-be-a misanthrope.

As condolence letters go, it's a complete failure of communication, but some of it is incompetence, rather than malice or sheer defensiveness (he is so freaking defensive about AW to both Heinrich and Catt it's not even funny).

Also in Fritz's defense, or at least as context, he has just lost not just his mother (and Fredersdorf), but one brother already (presumptively from grief), Wilhelmine is dying (she's got 3 months to live) and he's worried sick about her and constantly asking for news, he's worried about brother Ferdinand dying (he recovers, but Fritz doesn't know that at this point), and you can see him freaking out at the thought of Heinrich dying of grief, and going PLEASE DON'T at him.

Other things we know besides how AW just died of grief: Fritz isn't actively suicidal, but, especially at times of great loss, he does wistfully think about how nice it will be to be dead someday. Is he projecting his own emotional reactions to losing a beloved sibling onto Heinrich? Hell yes. Total breakdown in understanding what it would be useful for *Heinrich* to hear, but he's telling him what *he* wants to hear at a time like this, or at least the most useful things he can come up with to tell himself (which aren't very good, but at least keep him from giving up on life).

Which means, continuing with the theory of "this is what gets Fritz out of a grief-ridden borderline-suicidal funk"...there's the part where he goes, "Don't put me through losing you too." I'll delete my rant about how this is the single most common thing to say to someone who is seriously considering suicide (which I have no evidence Heinrich was) and probably second-most pernicious thing, but there is an aspect of "someone living still cares about you" that can be useful for someone in grief to hear. (Leaving aside the part where it needs to be phrased hella differently.)

Now, where has *Fritz* heard this line before? At Küstrin, when for 3 days after Katte's death, he was screaming, crying, feverish, possibly hallucinating or at least having severe flashbacks, and refusing to eat. Until finally someone said, "Look, if you starve yourself to death, it's going to hurt your mother and your sister."

And by all accounts, that was when he pulled himself together.

It's still one of the world's worst condolence letters, incredibly "me" focused and totally lacking in effective empathy. But, defensiveness aside, it is a very clear window into Fritz's brain, and an attempt to give Heinrich the only help that he himself ever got.

That's why I think the "See? See?! I told you so!" letters have less redeeming value. I find that hard to read as anything but sheer callousness, born of not caring about EC or her brother, or her other brother.

In conclusion, my own opinion about abuse is that abusers usually have reasons for the things they do, and you can totally understand those reasons and *still* declare the abusive behavior unacceptable and decide the right move is to protect yourself. Like, I understand my own family's behavior and hope they get help, but I'm still not on speaking terms with them.

This is really useful, thank you.

(I was kind of thinking, okay, Fritz, can't you just... figure out how this works from example, but it seems like it's possible he just never had any decent examples until it was too late to do any good. But still.)

Exactly, and while I'm sure he had decent examples in the sense that he'd received at least some decent condolence letters in his life, I don't think he understood the principles of what makes a good condolence letter, especially the part where holding back on saying everything he thought would be a better move in this case than giving advice.

He was, after all, an inveterate advice-giver (see also: teaching castrati to sing), and I don't think he had the tools in his emotional toolbox to figure out that while this might be the advice he gives himself at a time like this, it's not what he needs to be giving Heinrich if he wants to help him. That's the part of the letter that's easiest for me to forgive. (And by "forgive" I mean "it is specifically the fact that this letter is so terrible that means it requires forgiveness.")

Edited 2019-11-01 21:52 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess I've never been in that kind of situation -- that being said, I am coming from a position of having to basically take notes on things like this based on what other people say is good... and it occurs to me that (along with all my other advantages, which are major) I have the internet to tell me things like ring theory. (Course, Fritz would probaly have said that he was in the inner ring, and though he's not exactly wrong...)

(along with all my other advantages, which are major) I have the internet to tell me things like ring theory.

Seriously, the reason I'm so understanding of Fritz's shortcomings (okay, one major reason) is that I realize that many of the things he did that I don't do are because of the internet plus books written in the 20th/21st century that I have access to. Not that "how to write a good condolence letter" or "how to not invade neighboring countries" hadn't been invented in the 18th century (the Anti-Machiavel proves one of them had), but "how to convince someone like me and Fritz (not) to do these things" hadn't necessarily been articulated, and articulated enough times in enough different ways to register (or win in the face of absolute power).

Interesting about the ring theory! I wasn't aware that it had been formalized and given a name, but I had basically intuited that exact principle. I have deleted as irrelevant at least twice in this discussion the fact that Fritz did his whole "I told you so" after EC's brother died at Soor not once (to EC), not twice (to EC and her other brother), but three times (to EC, her other brother, and Fredersdorf), but I'm okay with him venting to Fredersdorf, because Fredersdorf wasn't (presumably) that close to the directly affected parties. Fredersdorf is who Fritz *should* be saying these things to! Just not the people in the inner circles.

ETA: Also, did you think of algebraic ring theory when you first encountered that term too? Because I had two semesters of it--well, of groups, rings, and fields--and though I've forgotten almost all of it by now, it was one of my absolute favorite parts of college, and it still brings back the happy memories.

Edited 2019-11-04 07:45 (UTC)

Yeah, the first time I had to write a condolence letter (literally just a couple of years ago -- a combination of good luck, my mom usually writing them for family friends, and the only relatives dying until then ones I didn't particularly want to write letters for) I just googled "how to write a condolence letter" and went from there :P

*nods* I had also intuited that principle by the time I came across that, but yes, from things like the internet and being able to watch what things people were like "wow, I can't BELIEVE that person did that thing" in advice columns and so on (I love advice columns), which also weren't available to Fritz.

And, lol, yes, my first thought on encountering it was "...author, you do know this is a thing already in math, right?" I also have forgotten my year of groups, rings, and fields, but loved it a Lot. (My best friend is a geometer, so she thinks I'm crazy, and I think she's crazy for loving topology, which was not my favorite. :) )

Googling it, a good idea! I'm surprised it didn't occur to me. My usual situation is having to write condolences about the death of someone I don't want to let on that I didn't particularly like, and have it be supportive without being dishonest, because I'm not a big fan of white lies.

I'm sure that in Fritz's shoes, without any internet, I'd just be listing out the faults of the person I didn't like, and talking about how great it is not to experience grief (one place where Fritz and I differ severely), and have they tried that? :P And genuinely expecting that suggestion to be helpful.

Re: Fritz: Worst condolence letter writer ever?

cahn - 2019-11-07 17:06 (UTC) - Expand

Also, when you go to beta my fic on Fritz losing his dogs, I suggest you keep the Heinrich letter in mind. See if the fic makes the letter come across as any more of a best effort.

Yes, that was a genius plan! Lol, imagining that dinner...

He needs all the hot pages he can get.

How much you wanna bet he was extra annoyed because everyone knows all Fritz likes to do anymore is look? :P

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Yuletide tags are out: Frederician version

Fritz: Worst condolence letter writer ever?

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Fritz/Voltaire

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