Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 48

[cahn]

Some awesome historical RPF candyheartsex stories for meeeeee (or by me, in one tiny case) with historical characters! I'm just going to note whom the stories are about here. They are all so good!!

Anne Boleyn/Catherine of Aragorn
Frances Howard and Frances Coke (or: James I's court was basically a HOTBED of scandal, omg)

And two that are also historical RPF but also consistent with the Jude Morgan novel The King's Touch, which is an excellent historical novel narrated by James ("Jemmy") Scott, Duke of Monmouth, Charles II's illegitimate son.

Princess Henrietta of England (Charles II's sister and wife of Philippe I duc d'Orleans)
James of Monmouth/William/Mary

Comments

Meaning of "von"

[mildred_of_midgard]

So we recently debated the ambiguity of the paintings AW reported buying at an auction: paintings *by* the late Knobelsdorff or *belonging to* Knobelsdorff for "Bilder aus dem Nachlaß von Knobelsdorff"? And we decided on "belonging to."

I'm now faced with a similar question: Edzard's son Tido has written to his father that "Enclosed you will find two very beautiful portraits of Keith, the larger of which Uncle Carl wants to hang as the main painting in the palace being built in Jennelt."

Anbei erhältst du zwei sehr schöne Portraits von Keith, deren der Onkel Carl das großte in dem zu Jennelt zu erbauenden Schloß als Hauptgemalde aufhängen mag.

Is there any meaning of "von" here that would lead to a reading other than "paintings that depict Keith"? Because that's the only meaning I get, but I'm not the native speaker. Portraits by Keith? Portraits belonging to Keith's Nachlaß?

German speakers?

If it is a painting of Keith, that's tantalizing: maybe the Knyhpausen family still has them! And if so, maybe they have a painting of his father Peter! But even if so, these might not be labeled in such a way that the family would know who they depict anyomre. History is so tantalizing!

Re: Meaning of "von"

[selenak]

Grammatically, it's impossible to deduce, it could mean either, BUT I'm going to make an educated guess here based on content logic. If Tido wants Uncle Carl to hang up the portrait in question as a "main painting" (presumably in a reception room/salon?), I very much doubt it depicts Peter, who is by then already half forgotten, and who at any rate presumably could not have afforded a great painter to do his portrait. My guess is it might be one of the paintings Knobelsdorff acquired in Italy and which Peter thus ended up possessing, and after him his son. Especially since we're now in the 19th century, and tastes have changed a lot; I just don't see a 19th century Prussian praising a Rokoko portrait of an obscure ancestor, whereas if Knobelsdorff managed to nab some good Italian art....

Re: Meaning of "von"

[mildred_of_midgard]

Oh, it's definitely not Peter. The only Keith under discussion here is Karl Ernst! Mentioning Peter was just my wishful thinking reasoning that if the Knyphausens had a portrait of the son, they might have a portrait of the father!

And to make a case that it might have been Karl Ernst: this is the schloss at Jennelt, where Karl Ernst has just been lord of the manor for 30+ years. And he might have been emotionally close to his heir and said heir's immediate family. And, as such, the painting might even have been recent enough for modern tastes! Plus, as owner of an estate, maybe he could have splurged on having his portrait done (maybe that's why his house was so run down, he prioritized the painting :P).

BUT.

If you say it's grammatically possible to be a work of art from his collection, then I agree that's waaaay more likely as a main painting of choice. (Plus judging by the correspondence I've read, these people don't seem to be super devastated that their cousin who lives on the other side of Germany died, and the overall impression I'm getting is distant relatives, not closely bonded.) I just wasn't sure if it was possible.

Thank you for clearing it up.

Re: Meaning of "von"

[selenak]

You know, when it comes to a portrait of Peter, my own secret hope is that Knobelsdorff did a sketch somewhere and it’s among his papers, just not identified (yet) as Peter von Keith. After all, we know he did the occasional portrait (including the EC liked best of Fritz), and they were friends.

Sketches

[mildred_of_midgard]

Ooh, good call! Maybe so!

I also seem to recall we have what may be the only surviving identified letter from Fritz to Knobelsdorff, thanks to felis? I would still like to get that information out there into the world, which reminds me I was going to contact Dr. Martin Engel now that I've finished the deciphering I'm going to do. He wanted to know what happened to Knobelsdorff's library after Peter died, and wrote, "Unfortunately, not much is known about Lt. Col. von Keith, so the trail of Knobelsdorff's library quickly runs out."

I don't have abundant data, but I have some! And maybe he has information about unidentified Knobelsdorff sketches.

Speaking of sketches, I keep meaning to send a couple to you and Cahn. I don't want to post Knyphausen papers online without their permission, but there are two sketched-out caricatures of Peter's sons: one of Karl Ernst and one of both Peter's sons in 1763. No, I don't know who drew them, but someone held onto them until Karl Ernst died in 1823. Given how little was preserved from the Keith papers, mostly only the official documents, plus correspondence from famous people, I wonder if someone important sketched this!

Can't be Knobelsdorff, as he's dead, but...any guesses?

ETA: Having a closer look, I think the placename is "Gottn", which might be short for Göttingen, which is where the boys went to university 1760-1762. The date seems to be 1763, but close enough. So maybe it was a schoolfriend, not anyone famous--although of all the things to survive 60 years, I'm surprised a random school sketch was one of the few to make the cut. Maybe a schoolfriend became famous!

Anyone famous at university in Göttingen ca. 1763?

Re: Sketches

[mildred_of_midgard]

I should also add that my first reading of that word, going purely on the handwriting, would be Halle, only I have zero evidence either boy ever went there, much less when they were 18 and 20. So I tried really hard to make it Gottn., but that requires a bit of imagination. Without any other evidence for how this person forms their letters, I can't tell an 'e' from an 'n' or an 'a' from an 'o'*...but that is a pretty legit capital H (although as prinzsorgenfrei points out, anything goes with capitals) and no umlaut on the first vowel, and the t's aren't crossed (but then, they don't have to be)...so...Halle would have been my first reading.

It's also worth noting that I'm relying on a very unreliable secondary source for the sons' education (other than I know they went to Göttingen in 1760 because Lehndorff says so), and Halle is not out of the question.

* There are multiple ways of forming 'a'--this would be one of the less common ways, but not unprecedented.

TLDR: Halle or Göttn. take your pick!