Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 47

[cahn]

We haven't had a new post since before December 25, so obligatory Yuletide link to this hilarious story of Frederick the Great babysitting his bratty little brother, with bonus Fritz/Fredersdorf!

Comments

Re: William/Mary/James of Monmouth

[selenak]

there were accusations against William for sleeping with men, but the book is more interested in how the accusations fit into a pattern than whether they were true. Do you know if they were true?

Well, we don't have a love letter by William to a boyfriend, but we do have contemporary gossip. Here's Liselotte (who btw liked William - for a hot minute as a girl, she was a potential bride, she did meet him, she wouldn't have been averse, and after decades of being married to Philippe d'Orleans, she certainly had a functioning gaydar. Otoh, she had heard about William and boyfriends via third parties, not observed it herself. Here's what she wrote:

It's rumored here that King William has the dropsy and is deathly ill; but I won't believe it until I've learned it from better sources. It would be a pity if such a smart King would have only so little to live anymore. But what he's been accused of is all too true. All the young Englishmen who arrived with the Ambassador Mylord Portland saw that affairs in Paris are conducted just like at home at their court, and then they weren't shy anymore about tellung us what's going on. He's supposed to have been in love with Albermarle as with a lady and to have kissed his hands in front of everyone. But the biggest sign that this King loves young men is that he's not interested in women. For believe me, my dear Amaliese! Men are like that, they have to be in love. King Charles was only into women. Mind you, there are a lot of people here who love both (men and women); you can find many of them, and more than of those who love only one or the other. King Charles wasn't in love with Madame Mazarin but with Madame de Portsmouth and with a Comedienne. Men believe that women couldn't exist without being in love because they themselves can't. (...)

Albermarle was born Arnold van Keppel and and one of William's bffs (the other being Willem Bentinck, the later Earl of Portland) since his youth, starting out as William's page, more about him here. It's entirely possible they were simply friends and those gossipping young Englishmen Liselotte talked to were simply jealous of Albermarle. But it's just as possible he did have a romantic thing with Albermarle, Portland or both. All we can say with certainty is that there was contemporary gossip.

Re: William/Mary/James of Monmouth

[luzula]

Huh, thanks. I guess it's hard to tell what the truth was!

Re: William/Mary/James of Monmouth

[cahn]

But the biggest sign that this King loves young men is that he's not interested in women. For believe me, my dear Amaliese! Men are like that, they have to be in love. King Charles was only into women. Mind you, there are a lot of people here who love both (men and women); you can find many of them, and more than of those who love only one or the other. King Charles wasn't in love with Madame Mazarin but with Madame de Portsmouth and with a Comedienne. Men believe that women couldn't exist without being in love because they themselves can't.

Gosh, Liselotte is the best. She must have been so much fun to be around.

Although presumably William wouldn't have had to have been in love, especially if he were still grieving for Mary (though that part I guess would depend on the date of the letter) so idk about her premise, though I do understand she had quite a bit of evidence for it :P

ETA: Though if I'd known about this before -- well, I suppose it wouldn't have changed anything. But it is certainly cementing my William/Mary/Jemmy threesome headcanon :P

Re: William/Mary/James of Monmouth

[selenak]

Oh, there are any number of non-gay explanations why a middle aged widower who even in his younger years didn't have the reputation of getting it on all the time (with either sex) and without any biological children would a) have no mistress and b) show interest and fondness in in a young man like Albermarle. (Bear in mind this is supposedly also when he's nice to young FW and considers adopting him briefly, and no one insinuated anything untowards there.) Liselotte's view on these matters is inevitably influenced by having spent decades with the never mistress-less Louis XIV as a brother-in-law and Philippe the Gay as a husband. (Not to mention that her own father Karl Ludwig also had a mistress and infamously lived with her and his wife both because his wife refused to move out after he tried in vain to do a Henry VIII and grant himself a divorce. And even when Liselotte lived with Aunt Sophie in Hannover, she'd probably been aware that Sophie's husband Ernst had a mistress and illegitimate kids as well. )

Re: William/Mary/James of Monmouth

[cahn]

(Bear in mind this is supposedly also when he's nice to young FW and considers adopting him briefly, and no one insinuated anything untowards there.)

Gossipers: Hey, remember when he was nice to FW and considered adopting him? What if...
Gossipers: EW! I want that mental picture OUT of my head! Nope! Not gonna imagine THAT!

Liselotte's view on these matters is inevitably influenced by having spent decades with the never mistress-less Louis XIV as a brother-in-law and Philippe the Gay as a husband.

Hee, yep, she did have a lot of evidence! :) And I didn't know (or forgot) about the others... yeah.