cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 43

Still going! Still clearing Fritz's valet/chamberlain Fredersdorf's name from the calumny enshrined in wikipedia that he was dismissed for financial irregularities!

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From:

mildred_of_midgard

your true heart.

Awww, I like it! <3 I was going to suggest "sincere warmth", but "true heart" is great.

Clearly FS isn't the only salmon lover of the era. :)

Well, you know, people often gift other people things they themselves like, so it's entirely possible Fritz sent FS one of his *own* favorite foods.

Since Leining considers the salmon worth mentioning twice, I'm guessing Fredersdorf might have given the Bremen guy the hint/request/order to send it?

Ooh, you might be right! Okay, we fanfic writers can add that to "cherries" for Fritzian foods to include. :)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yes to all of this! I almost want to say, "If you want to see how someone in disgrace is treated by Frederick, and also by sympathetic people around him, read Eva Ziebura, August Wilhelm: Prinz von Preußen, 2006." ;)

So, good news, we redeemed Fredersdorf's reputation this weekend with a lot of decipherment; bad news, I'm still way behind on comments (especially Frederick Hervey, but also including some Leining-related ones), and there is still a lot more decipherment to go. In lieu of proper comments for the time being, please continue to accept my thanks for your true heart and endless supply of the best gossip from the 18th century. ;)

Edited Date: 2023-04-24 12:33 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

What German word are you guessing for "XX[h|f]e[r|n]" to mean "stop"?

Hindern, as in, "woran ich ihn gewiss nicht hindern werde", at least this is what I'm guessing Leining intended to write. :)

BTW, the fact Leining isn't just forwarding letters between Fredesdorf and Fritz but also between other people (like whoever wrote the "Letter from America") and Fredersdorf is a) yet another example of how deeply retired Fredersdorf is still involved, and b) supports my theory that this is what Glasow was supposed to be doing with Algarotti's letters, and that Fritz has other people whose mail he doesn't want to be read by all and sunder (like his early letters to Voltaire were) write to his valet or treasurer. But with the understanding that this mail is treated discreetly, not copied for the Saxons or openened when it shouldn't be. :)

Yeah, I wonder if he thinks Fredersdorf will find out through some other means, and he's short on space?

Makes sense. I mean, that really is a death everyone in Berlin hears about. As I recall, it's early in Lehndorff's entry once the news of the battle arrives in Berlin, but then of course he switches over to being delighted about his divine hero. :)

Edited Date: 2023-04-24 01:05 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

I was telling my wife about these latest developments, and we had this exchange:

Me: She would be 97 if she's alive today, which she's probably not.
Her: What about the descendants?
Me: ROFL! Yes, they need to release a revised second edition, complete with apology!

From:

selenak

LOL. Well, to be fair: they can always argue the book's main claim - re: Fredersdorf's business dealings with Pfeiffer about Kiekemal - is true, and documented by her. Just her conclusion that honest, honest Fritz upon hearing this was horrified, broke of relations with Fredersdorf and Fredersdorf died with a broken heart and grieving his lost honor has no basis whatsoever.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Yes, but they have to remove the libel even if it's not the main point! Also, your "honest, honest Fritz" reminds me that we need to tell them about the Polish coin dies. ;)

From:

selenak

Don't we just. :) I was thinking that at the time, because her Fritz image is so traditionally Prussian, pre WWI almost, but that's understandable, given her age and the fact that most school books need a few decades to be updated. Also, anyone doing the amount of research she did for their local history (i.e. Kiekemal) without any academic training or payment, just out of enthusiasm, deserves respect.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

P.S. Your latest letter 9 reply has broken html, and I am avoiding replying so you can fix.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Agreed. That's why I said in all seriousness we should not bother her if she is alive, and also that I blame her less for not finding the Leining correspondence. And to be fair, maybe the Prussian archives weren't searchable when Fahlenkamp was writing, either.

It's just a pity that she speculated so much there and so many other people copied the fact. Like you said, copying is endemic and hard to eradicate!

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hindern, as in, "woran ich ihn gewiss nicht hindern werde", at least this is what I'm guessing Leining intended to write. :)

Yeah, I *cannot* get "hindern" out of these squiggles, but the squiggles are unusually squiggly, so it's possible he just couldn't fit all the characters in. Anyway, your interpretation makes sense, so if it's not that word, it may be something similar.

Makes sense. I mean, that really is a death everyone in Berlin hears about. As I recall, it's early in Lehndorff's entry once the news of the battle arrives in Berlin, but then of course he switches over to being delighted about his divine hero. :)

Thank you for reminding me it would be in Lehndorff. I just checked, and that's his May 9 entry, so when Leining is writing on May 10, he can assume the news of Schwerin will have made it to Fredersdorf by the time his letter arrives (especially with the post so shaky between there and Dresden), so I'm guessing that's why Leining omits it in favor of telling Fredersdorf about the things he might not already have heard about.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Makes sense. I mean, that really is a death everyone in Berlin hears about. As I recall, it's early in Lehndorff's entry once the news of the battle arrives in Berlin, but then of course he switches over to being delighted about his divine hero. :)

Speaking of war, rather tangentially, something dawned on me last night. Remember how Formey is so relentlessly positive in his eulogy for Peter that he skips over 1730 with "because of reasons"? And we've always explained that as due to the genre and the fact that it was an official document written for public consumption, and Fritz has drunk the kool-aid since 1730?

It only *just* occurred to me that when Formey wrote that, it was 1757. Prussia was at war. Of *course* you can't talk about "That time the guy we all liked and respected deserted the army to go live his best life, and our current king tried to do the same."

BECAUSE OF REASONS.

From:

selenak

I also suspect Wegfraß didn't know about Caroline Daum aka Mrs. Fredersdorf destroying letters.

Just for the interest of clarity, though: what we have documented is that she destroyed her own engagement letters from Fredersdorf towards the end of her life, at least that's what grandson Achim says. (I suppose some of these letters could have been between Fredersdorf and Fritz without Achim knowing the better if she didn't let him read them, of course, but he says those were the letters between her and Fredersdorf.)

Separately from this, there's the story of Fritz after Fredersdorf's death sending for his own letters, and Caroline either fobbing him with with only a few and claiming the rest were destroyed already, or telling him they were all destroyed already, and I can't remember which one, nor can I remember where among the many books I read that back in the day. (I do know where the Achim von Armin story is from, because that's in the Caroline post at Rheinsberg.)

From:

selenak

Wow, yes, you're right. Never mind eulogy habits, reminding everyone in war time that the praised departed deserted the army and that everyone's supreme commander tried the same: so not on.

From:

selenak

:) Emma had her flaws, but casting her as the predator in this is ridiculous.

From:

selenak

You're welcome! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Argh, I kind of need to work, and I'm impatient for you to confirm my reading and interpretation of the first paragraph of the postscript, so I'm going to hand this over with less cleanup than I normally do. I may make time to go back over some of the worst parts, though there's only so much I can do with the very last line.

Dem Herrn Grafen von Schaffgotsch habe ich meine [na]t[ur]liche
Gedenken wegen der Kienbergschen Pacht bereits vor 4 Wochen
gesch[rei]ben, und mich gantz positionement gegen ihn erklaret
das, wenn Er die Pacht continuiren wollte, ich solches Seinen
gutbefinden lediglich uberl[a]sse, ich wolle mich aber alle[r] VerXXX-
XX[r]tung, wenn es schlecht gi[n]ge feierlich entsagen, und Ihr[e]
Excellentz mussten in diesen fall allein fur den Kiss stehen.
Ich habe auch nicht vergessen wegen den schlechten qualite des Kien-
berschen Hendes, und daß solches einbestandigen Stein des An-
stoßes seyn wurde, [Erinnerung] zu [thu]X. Folglich sehen mon
cher compere, daß ich mich in allen [Stucken] pra[cavire?]t, und
als nichts zu besorgen haben werde.

Die Nachricht von der Uebergabe d[er] Stadt Prag wird [nun] XXX
nicht mehr lange außen blieben. Der Angriff wi[r]d [in] wenigste-
gen mit solchem Nachdruck geschehen, daß Sie, ehe wir es aus
versehen, wird Chamade schlegen mußen. In diesen Erwartung
habe ich das Vergnugen, mit der aufrichtigsten Hochachtung zu
seyn,
Monsieur et tres cher compere
votre tres humble
et obeisant Serviteur
Leining

Haupt-Quartier bey Prag
der 23te Maj. 1757

"Chamade" is the beating of drums for capitulation. Hang on to those delusions while you can, Leining!

And then the postscript:

P.S. Se. Konig§. Mayt. haben mich bey Uberreichung dero letzten
Briefes gesagt, ob Sie noch lebten und ob ich von de[ro] be[find]en
[darin] Nachricht sollte, weswegen ich aber, weil der 2 letzten
Schrieben davon nichts erXXXh[a]t, kein hinreichendes eclaircissement
geben konnen. Ich bitte also diese Punct gelegentlich nicht
zu vergessen.

Herr Anderson ist dem 12te dieses glucklich hier angelanget,
XXXX fort aber ist ist zu beschaffen, das ich zur zeit noch nicht XXX-
sehen kann, ob es sein Gluck oder Ungluck sey, dieser anhero
gekommen. Bewiss [wir] unter die [SaupontXXation??] geben
und soll bey de[r|m] XXXXX XXXX und XhlaX[te], ha[e?][tt?]e sache.

The last line is almost unreadable, but the IMPORTANT part is I'm pretty sure Fritz is asking if Fredersdorf is still alive and if Leining has news of him, and Leining says he couldn't give any sufficient report, because the last two letters didn't contain any news, and please not to forget that part occasionally in future.

This is SO FRITZ. Also. NOT IN DISGRACE. Fritz is still worrying! This is SO going in the essay.

Edited Date: 2023-04-25 02:51 pm (UTC)

From:

selenak

Between packing for Berlin (tomorrow) and Portugal (Friday), it might take a while now till I can translate, but for now, my interpretation of the first paragraph is the same as yours. Also, VerXXX-
XX[r]tung = Verantwortung, responsibility. Buying the entire correspondence was such a brilliant idea on your part !

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ah, yes, the train connections! Fingers crossed!

for now, my interpretation of the first paragraph is the same as yours.

This is even better than the first paragraph of the main text, where he passes on Fredersdorf's letter! I consider the Fredersdorf embezzlement hypothesis conclusively refuted, not just much weaker than the alternative (which had to be constructed out of indirect evidence).

Woohoo! Now I just need to finish this correspondence and then go take the next steps toward producing an essay. (There are a lot more steps remaining, sadly, but I'm optimistic it might get written eventually.)

Also, VerXXX-
XX[r]tung = Verantwortung, responsibility.

So it is! Wow, he scraaawled that o.

Buying the entire correspondence was such a brilliant idea on your part !

Much like

cahn introducing people with similar interests, my book-buying compulsion doesn't always pay off like this, but this time, it PAID OFF! (Buying the Kiekemal book without knowing if it talked about Fredersdorf also paid off bigtime.)

Safe travels! I'll keep the transcriptions coming, but I won't expect translations until you have time. (I'll maybe try to summarize at least a few high points for

cahn, especially since deciphering is no longer taking up 100% of my time and energy. Though deciphering and reading still use such different parts of my brain that it's hard to zoom in and out and in and out and do both*, as you can see by my failure to get Verantwortung on the first two passes. And that is why it is soooo helpful to have you for the translations; I could get more than I do, but it would come at the cost of decipherment, and since I'm the only one deciphering...this is a good division of labor. :) )

* This is a development I was not expecting and was surprised by. I figured I would have at least my full German skills, such as they are, at my disposal when working through this correspondence, but no. I have to stop deciphering to start reading and vice versa.

Edited Date: 2023-04-25 10:18 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Brief summary for

cahn:

Paragraph 1: complaining about how the "Kiensberg lease", which I think is a contract to supply the army (with horses? horse fodder?), is being handled badly, and he washes his hands of the whole affair if it keeps up like this and they can't get somebody new to take over the contract.

Paragraph 2: Prague's going to surrender any minute!

Postscript 1: "When I handed over the last letter, His Majesty asked if you were still alive and if I had gotten any news about you, but because the last two letters didn't contain any information on this point, I couldn't give him sufficient updates. I therefore beseech you not to forget to include this point occasionally."

FRITZ! That is the most Fritzian thing ever, he always wants reassurance that people are okay (and still love him).

Postscript 2: Anderson (the valet who was dismissed in disfavor shortly before the war, then recalled after Glasow's fall) arrived, Leining can't foresee yet if that's going to be a good thing or a bad thing.

Selena can refine/correct if necessary.

Edited Date: 2023-04-25 10:16 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Ahh, I was conflating the two, then. I will make a note to look into the second claim, then. Thank you!

In any case, even if we can't back up that claim, we no longer need to, thanks to Leining.

From:

mildred_of_midgard

Hendes

Reading ahead in the next letter, this is "Heues", i.e. hay! I knew that wasn't a word I recognized. (Again, you guys are seeing from this letter what a text looks like after I've only done two passes through it--normally there are at least 5, and the final ones involve 10-30 minutes each on individual words.)

Also, this corroborates my belief that these are the horse fodder suppliers.

Edited Date: 2023-04-25 11:32 pm (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

One pass for a page and a half! Not perfect, but close enough! It's partly because the text is clearer, and partly because I'm getting the hang of this (I'm learning to recognize entire common words at a glance, which helps to no end).

Monsieur et tres cher compere!

Ich habe endlich gestern die Antwort von der Churmärck§-Cammer
auf mein letzteres Anschreiben von 4§ May. a.X. erhalten, welche
denn nicht ermangele, mon tres cher compere, nebst d[enen] ges[amm]-
ten Beylagen zü communiciren, mit bitte, mir alles nach ge-
[ma]chten Gebraüch [w]ieder zürück zü senden. Es freüet mich,
daß Sie dieser Sache wegen aüs dem Embarras kommen, ünd
von denen angedroheten ünangenehmen Zwangsmitteln verschonet
bleiben. Zügleich ist mir angenehm, daß der Herr Graf von Schaff-
gotsch sich der Pacht von Kienberg annimmt, uüd mir zü meiner
Consolation die Versicherüng giebet, daß er vor der Kiss stehen, aüch
zü [keinen] Beschwerden über schlechtes heu Anlass geben will.

Schreiben Sie mir doch ob Se. Mayt. der Konig denen Kietz[ern] in Cüstrin
wenn Sie Höchstdemselben fi[sch]e gesandt, ein Douceur bekommen
haben. Die Küche wil[l] mir solches aus [mein] ünzeitigen freigebigkeit
in Rechnüng bekommen. Ich glaübe aber, daß solches zür [U]ngeb[ü]h[r] ge-
schiehet.

Die gestern an meiner fraü gesendte relation wird mon cher compere
wohl communiciret worden seyn. Heüte brennet das feüer in
zwei Orten wieder entsetzlich starck, ünd mich soll w[ündern?]
vor lange die Herrn P[rä]gen ünd die darin befindlich Troupen
dieses f[e]üerwer[kc]hen aüsfallen werden.

Ich habe die Ehre, mit der vorzüglichsten Höchachtüng zü verharre,
Monsieur et tres cher compere
votre tres humble et
fedele Serviteur

je vous rend Grace pour le bon
vin, ma femme s'engrisera

Leining

Haüpt-qüartier bei Prag
den 3te Junii 1757

Appended to the bottom of the first page, in what looks like a different hand:

die Antwort von §. Schaffgot. Copi[eren], und
des Schreiben von der Cammer an § Leining auch CopXXn

Quick content notes for

cahn: looks like the Kiensberg contract for horse fodder might finally be getting sorted to Leining's satisfaction, something about payment of a gratuity in relation to fish from(?) Küstrin (Küstrin-Kietze is currently across the Oder from Küstrin proper, one in Germany and one in Poland; historically, they were part of the same fortified garrison town). Then a note that he sent a communication to his wife that should have been passed on to Fredersdorf by now, a note that the siege of Prague is getting pretty intense with lots of fire (can't tell if this is artillery fire or uncontrolled fires that have broken out), expectation that matters are going to come to a head very soon (you're not wrong about that, Leining--the battle of Kolin will be on the 18th), and then the postscript we've seen thanking Fredersdorf for the wine and commenting that his wife will get fat (based on what we've read, I'm going with wining and dining by the Fredersdorfs, not impregnation by Leining).

Edited Date: 2023-04-26 03:14 am (UTC)

From:

mildred_of_midgard

This is the not!Algarotti/Glasow one we've seen before. I'm just copying it so I have the numbering in the comment subject for future reference (I'm hoping to compile these for Rheinsberg), and fixing something I couldn't read last time:

Monsieur mon tres chere compere!

Einliegender brief ist heüte ünter Glasows Adresse aüs Bologna
von dem Grafen Algarotti [mit] angekommen. Ich ermangele [n]icht
derselben sogleich zu über[ma]chen, und mon cher compere von der aüs-
nehmenden hochachtüng zu ve[r]sichern mit der beständig seyn wird,

Monsieur mon tres chere compere,
votre tres humble et
obeisant Serviteur
Leining

Haupt-Quartier bei Prag
7te Junii 1757

Correcting my earlier reading, he's not saying he's not intending to hand it over to the recipient immediately (in favor of sending it to Fredersdorf instead), he's saying he's not neglecting to hand it over immediately. I assume to Fredersdorf, unless he means that he's handed it over to Fritz immediately, and is only sending Fredersdorf a copy--but based on the later letter, he doesn't seem aware of the Abbe de Prades insert, so I'm guessing he means he's handing it over to Fredersdorf immediately.

(I thought it said "ermangele" originally, but Google and the dictionaries I checked didn't think that made any sense, and I didn't feel confident overriding what they were saying with what I thought I was seeing. But I've now seen him use "ermangele" in much clearer handwriting to mean he won't fail to do something or delay in doing it, so I'm more confident of my reading now. I can also now say I've seen him use "übermachen" to mean what I would expect "überreichen" for; maybe it's archaic, Selena can weigh in, but certainly to me as an English speaker, "making something out/over to someone" and "handing something over to someone" are very similar in meaning, although the first one has limited usage.)

Edited Date: 2023-04-26 03:12 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Okay, I’m sitting in the train to Berlin and thus have time for a little translation effort. :) Mildred, I’ve guessed “Bedenken” (concerns) for your transcription of “Gedenken” (Renembrance). Also, I pondered a lot about “Kiss”, and have now speculated it might be “Konkurs”.

I’ve written about my natural concerns regarding the Kienberg lease to Count von Schaffgotsch, and explained explicitly to him that if he wanted to continue the lease, I’d leave everything to his judgment, but that I’m also disclaiming any responsibility, so that if it should turn out badly, his excellency would be solely responsible for any bancruptcy.

I haven’t forgotten about the bad quality of the Kienberg hay, either, and reminded him that such a thing (continuing) would be an ongoing matter of objection. Thus you see, mon cher compere, that I’ve been cautious in all aspects, and won’t have to worry any further about this.

Now, you won’t have to wait for the news of the capitulation of the city of Prague much longer. The attack will happen with such force that it will have to beat the drums of surrender before we know it. In expectation of this, I have the honor to be, with the most sincere respect, Monsieur et tres cher compere, etc.

P.S. When I handed over your last letter, His Royal Majesty said whether you were still alive, and what kind of news I had of how you were doing, but as the last two letters hadn’t mentioned anything about this, I couldn’t provide him with sufficient information on this point. Therefore, I ask you not to forget this matter now and then.

Mr. Anderson has arrived here safe and sound on the 12th, but (his behavior?) is of a way that doesn’t allow me to tell yet whether coming here will be fortunate or unfortunate for him.

I can’t make heads or tails of the last sentence following this one except for gessing “SaupontXXation” might be “Satisfaction”, i.e. maybe Leining isn’t sure yet Anderson’s service (to Fritz) will give satisfaction this time? But that’s really just speculation.

Anyway, to Leining the big news may be he finally found someone to take over the Kienberg lease because providing horses and horse fodder is war essential, but to us the big news is Fritz worrying about Fredersdorf and demanding info on how he’s doing, long after Fredersdorf’s supposed retirement in disgrace. And Leining insisting Fredersdorf ought to include reports on his health in future letters. Incidentally, that apparantly he hasn’t done so in the most recent ones also tells us something about Fredersdorf. The later Voltaire and Fritz letters to each other always contain a lot of their respective health problems (mostly Voltaire’s, but Fritz does complain now and then, too), and while some of those were undoubtedly very real, Voltaire was also a famous hypochondriac who’d outlive a great many of his contemporaries. Meanwhile, I suspect (with the benefit of hindsight and the ticking clock) that Fredersdorf’s physical health has continued to deterioate, and that’s precisely why he didn’t mention it in his letters. Fritz is at war, Leining is going through his job baptism of fire, neither of them will feel calmer if Frederdorf tells him, yes, still falling apart, still looks like I’m dying.

Edited Date: 2023-04-26 06:33 am (UTC)

From:

selenak

Monsieur et tres cher compere!

Yesterday, I finally received the reply from the Kurmärkische Kammer to my last letter of May 4th, and am not neglecting to share it in addition to the collected inserts, mon tres cher compare, so I ask you to send me all of it back once you’ve put it to good use. I’m glad you get out of any embarrassment in this matter, and will be spared any disagreeable threatened forcible means. Additionally, it pleases me that Count of Schaffgotsch will indeed take the lease of Kienberg, and has consoled me by giving me the assurance that he won’t give any cause to complaints about bad hay or a bancruptcy.

Please write to me whether His Majesty the King has received any sweets from those folks inn Kietz-Küstrin when you had ordered fish to be sent to him. Due to my liberality, not suited to these times, the kitchen wants to bill me for said sweets. But I believe that this happens inappropriately.

The news I’ve sent to my wife yesterday will have been shared with mon cher compere. Today again there are fires in two places which burn fiercely, and I’d be surprised if the good citizens of Prague and the troops contained within won’t be driven out by these fireworks.

I have the honor of remaining with the deepest respect, Monsieur et tres cher compere, etc.

What confused me was “ I’m glad you get out of any embarrassment in this matter, and will be spared any disagreeable threatened forcible means” , because that first reads as if Fredersdorf was the one who had been threatened and was in embarassment, and I briefly wondered whether this was our first sign he was in some financial mess after all. But then I recalled Leining in the first letter mentioning the Kurmärkische Kammer has mentioned he had been writing this letter (to the Kammer) as threateningly as possible and hopes that will put an end to this embarrassment. I therefore concluded that he’s been threatening them with Fredersdorf as the ultimate weapon - as Manger mentions in his Frederdorf chapter, he was feared among many, and as Lehndorff mentions in his decription, Fredersdorf could use his power “despotically” - , but now that the chamber has caved, Fredersdorf’s intervention won’t be necessary any more.

And yes, after all the previous mentions of Mrs. Leining sharing news with Fredersdorf the post script is clearly about her getting wined and dined by Mr. And Mrs. Frederdorf. Also, it seems my speculation Fredersdorf might have caused the salmon from Bremen being sent to Fritz could be correct if he’s also responsible for Küstrin sending more fish. (But not, or so Leining thinks, sweets! No doceurs for Fritz, then?)

Edited Date: 2023-04-26 07:00 am (UTC)