So if there was one thing Anne absolutely wanted to prevent, it was a replay of this particular fraternal relationship, which she'd seen up close for years, with her sons.
<3
That Philippe didn't use the opportunity to scheme, or to bask in the sudden sun, but kept being at Louis' sickbed really showed the difference to Gaston, and it may indeed have had something to do with the way Louis replied in later years to challenges he should come down hard on homosexuals with "I'd have to start with my brother" and the self evident implication "I never will do that"
That's great -- and most of my exposure to Philippe has been through Minette and Liselotte, who have, er, somewhat different (totally sensible!) feelings towards Monsieur, so it's nice to have this look at him as well. People are complicated!
that, since the King did not want to do this, (Monsieur) didn't see why he should stop his son from amusing himself in order to comfort himself.
That whole fight, ooh. I can see how they got each other wound up!
He also said to Liselotte: "I don't know how to accept the fact that I shall never see my brother again."
That's great -- and most of my exposure to Philippe has been through Minette and Liselotte, who have, er, somewhat different (totally sensible!) feelings towards Monsieur, so it's nice to have this look at him as well. People are complicated!
Indeed they are, and we've had several cases of men being horrid husbands but good brothers. Also, even the editor of the Charles II/Minette letters, who is firmly of the "Monsieur was the worst!" persuasion, points out that one reason (among several, but an important one) why this marriage went from bad to worse, was, to quote from my write up: Philippe's relationship with his brother was other than the one with the Chevalier the central one in his life, and both the supposed Louis/Minette affair early on (whether or not they actually had sex or just engaged in an intense flirtation, it was serious and public enough to make both their mothers remonstrate with them) and the fact that Louis took Minette later seriously as a politician in a way he never did Philippe (who wasn't privy to the secret negotiations between Louis, Minette and Charles about the Treaty of Dover, presumably because he wasn't trusted to keep it secret) were interfering with that relationship. Hence Phiippe retaliating by using his status as Minette's husband to delay her journey to England as much as he could, then forbid her to stay longer than three days etc.
One might also add this is another reason why while the Philippe/Liselotte marriage wasn't paradise, it was better than that - Louis liked Liselotte and was amused by her frankness, but he didn't fancy her, and it never would have occured to him to entrust her with any political missions. Plus everyone was older. (It's worth pointing outo Philippe and Minette were both under 20 when they married.)
It so was, and yes, forced marriages in general are bad, forced marriages directly against one's sexuality even more so. The irony is, on paper, Philippe/Minette should have worked out better than Philippe/Liselotte, because they had far more in common. Not just because they were first cousins. They'd grown up knowing each other, in the same cultural environment, they were close in age, they were both committed Catholics. If Minette/Madame de Monaco really was a thing, they even shared the experience of being attracted to your own gender, even if Minette otherwise seems to have been attracted to men. Whereas Liselotte was a Protestant complete stranger who'd grown up very differently, and made little secret of her initial impression that most people at Versailles were nuts. What's more, the Philippe/Minette marriage seems to have been at least partly his idea. In Jude Morgan's novel, he does it to compete with Louis (wanting to marry a Princess of impeccable degree as well) and because Minette has turned from a thin teenager to the new It Girl of the French Court, so he'll be envied, at least that's why (biased) Jemmy believes he wants to marry her. Antonia Fraser thinks it was more that the mothers - Anne of Austria and Henrietta Maria - were keen on the match (well, Henrietta Maria would have preferred Minette/Louis, but since that wasn't on the table...) - but also that Philippe was in love (as much as he ever would be with a woman) with Minette for all of five minutes, basically right unto the wedding. And you know, it's not impossible. They were both very young, and in the homophobic times they lived in, with a very different understanding of sexuality, he might not yet have figured out he really did not like to have sex with women. He already had had m/m sexual experiences, but even centuries later, this would not necessarily have meant to him he couldn't like women as well, let alone in an environment which saw m/f as the absolute. So why not pretty cousin Minette? He could have persuaded himself he really was in love with her.
Like I said, in theory, this should have at least stood a chance of working, instead of being the non-stop disaster it turned in to from their wedding night onwards. And I think the difference in wedding nights already points to a difference as to why Philippe/Liselotte, while anything but harmonious, was less of a disaster. We know from a remark that Charles makes in a letter to Minette about his own wedding night that Minette menunstrated on her wedding night and that Philippe reacted badly to this reveal about the female body. (And not Charles but we might add, never stopped his remarks about how disgusting women were during his first marriage.) Whereas as we know from Liselotte's letter about her own wedding night where he hung up pictures of the Virgin Mary (including in "places they really ought not to contact" to strengthen him to go through with the consumation, she had to laugh, he first said that as a former Huguenot, she did not understand these things, but then had to laugh as well. The ability to laugh together is already a good foundation to make it through a bad situation.
and made little secret of her initial impression that most people at Versailles were nuts.
Hee, I wonder if, at least on second thouht, this was a plus for Philippe...
as we know from Liselotte's letter about her own wedding night where he hung up pictures of the Virgin Mary (including in "places they really ought not to contact"
Lol, I remembered the part about the pictures of the Virgin Mary, but somehow forgot about the "places they really ought not to contact"! Hee!
The ability to laugh together is already a good foundation to make it through a bad situation.
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Re: Bourbon Brothers
So if there was one thing Anne absolutely wanted to prevent, it was a replay of this particular fraternal relationship, which she'd seen up close for years, with her sons.
<3
That Philippe didn't use the opportunity to scheme, or to bask in the sudden sun, but kept being at Louis' sickbed really showed the difference to Gaston, and it may indeed have had something to do with the way Louis replied in later years to challenges he should come down hard on homosexuals with "I'd have to start with my brother" and the self evident implication "I never will do that"
That's great -- and most of my exposure to Philippe has been through Minette and Liselotte, who have, er, somewhat different (totally sensible!) feelings towards Monsieur, so it's nice to have this look at him as well. People are complicated!
that, since the King did not want to do this, (Monsieur) didn't see why he should stop his son from amusing himself in order to comfort himself.
That whole fight, ooh. I can see how they got each other wound up!
He also said to Liselotte: "I don't know how to accept the fact that I shall never see my brother again."
:( <3
Re: Bourbon Brothers
Indeed they are, and we've had several cases of men being horrid husbands but good brothers. Also, even the editor of the Charles II/Minette letters, who is firmly of the "Monsieur was the worst!" persuasion, points out that one reason (among several, but an important one) why this marriage went from bad to worse, was, to quote from my write up: Philippe's relationship with his brother was other than the one with the Chevalier the central one in his life, and both the supposed Louis/Minette affair early on (whether or not they actually had sex or just engaged in an intense flirtation, it was serious and public enough to make both their mothers remonstrate with them) and the fact that Louis took Minette later seriously as a politician in a way he never did Philippe (who wasn't privy to the secret negotiations between Louis, Minette and Charles about the Treaty of Dover, presumably because he wasn't trusted to keep it secret) were interfering with that relationship. Hence Phiippe retaliating by using his status as Minette's husband to delay her journey to England as much as he could, then forbid her to stay longer than three days etc.
One might also add this is another reason why while the Philippe/Liselotte marriage wasn't paradise, it was better than that - Louis liked Liselotte and was amused by her frankness, but he didn't fancy her, and it never would have occured to him to entrust her with any political missions. Plus everyone was older. (It's worth pointing outo Philippe and Minette were both under 20 when they married.)
Re: Bourbon Brothers
I mean, probably just a bad idea to make gay people get married in general... but ugh, that one really was a horrible train wreck, wasn't it.
Re: Bourbon Brothers
Like I said, in theory, this should have at least stood a chance of working, instead of being the non-stop disaster it turned in to from their wedding night onwards. And I think the difference in wedding nights already points to a difference as to why Philippe/Liselotte, while anything but harmonious, was less of a disaster. We know from a remark that Charles makes in a letter to Minette about his own wedding night that Minette menunstrated on her wedding night and that Philippe reacted badly to this reveal about the female body. (And not Charles but we might add, never stopped his remarks about how disgusting women were during his first marriage.) Whereas as we know from Liselotte's letter about her own wedding night where he hung up pictures of the Virgin Mary (including in "places they really ought not to contact" to strengthen him to go through with the consumation, she had to laugh, he first said that as a former Huguenot, she did not understand these things, but then had to laugh as well. The ability to laugh together is already a good foundation to make it through a bad situation.
Re: Bourbon Brothers
and made little secret of her initial impression that most people at Versailles were nuts.
Hee, I wonder if, at least on second thouht, this was a plus for Philippe...
as we know from Liselotte's letter about her own wedding night where he hung up pictures of the Virgin Mary (including in "places they really ought not to contact"
Lol, I remembered the part about the pictures of the Virgin Mary, but somehow forgot about the "places they really ought not to contact"! Hee!
The ability to laugh together is already a good foundation to make it through a bad situation.
<3