Separate, because the one naming the mother of seven of his children sure as hell won't be published.
Oof!
From Marguerite Voisin's interrogation protocol
I appreciate that you bring up in the previous comment the context that if she confesses to a bunch of stuff, then they won't execute her. Because otherwise I would have thought I should have taken Marguerite's confession much more seriously.
Anyway, this was fascinating as always, thank you!
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
Well, I guess you said no one got executed, but quite frankly I cannot blame her!
Me neither, I would have been out of there at once. Especially since the Marquise de Brinvilliers, who started this whole scandal, had been executed, and I'm sure Olympe remembered that. Spending many years in the Bastille, even in an nice room, would also not have been my fate of choice. Where it starts to get questionable is by her leaving kid Eugene behind, but then a) noble ladies did little childraising themselves anyway, and b) she probably thought that growing up at the court of Louis XIV was better for his later career and prospects. As an exile, she couldn't have assumed she'd be able to give her son the same prospects. Little did she know Eugene was getting nowwhere at the court of Louis XIV but as an exile himself would launch a brilliant military career against Louis.
I appreciate that you bring up in the previous comment the context that if she confesses to a bunch of stuff, then they won't execute her. Because otherwise I would have thought I should have taken Marguerite's confession much more seriously.
Oh, it's still entirely possible that Marguerite was telling nothing but the truth, and certainly if you've ever read a novel set in this era that includes the Affair of the Poisons, black masses do happen. In a superstitious age, it would have been one more thing to fleece the paying nobility for. However, as I wrote, I can't help but consider that the non noble women accused were as good as dead for being abortionists alone the moment they got arrested, and they must have known that. Any hope for clemency and/or staying alive a few months longer would have been in providing information, and spectacular information worked best. Moreover, as you know I've read quite a lot about the witch trials that happened in the same century just a few decades earlier, and they feature a lot of black masses being reported under interrogation, and in these cases, no one assumes all these women were telling the truth. Meaning: these stories were well entrenched in the public subconscious. Whether or not La Voisin offered Black Masses for the customers willing to pay more to get Satan himself on their side, Marguerite would have known approximately how a Black Mass was supposed to be staged, because there were so many pamphlets with such stories making the rounds.
Incidentally, while the Affair of the Poisons shows up in many a fiction set in this era - like the Angelique novels, or the tv series Versailles in its second season - my favourite of Judith Merkle Riley's novels, The Oracle Glass, has it at its centre and from an unsual perspective; our heroine is a young smart and handicaped girl, Genevieve, who has fallen out with her family for plot reasons, nearly dies, but instead is saved and ends up getting mentored by La Voisin who uses her as one of her soothsayers. So the main characters aren't the nobles but the ring of alchemists, abortionists, soothsayers, and yes, also poisoners working in Paris, and Genevieve's mixed feelings about her mentor, once she has figured out the full extent of La Voisin's services, make for a great central push-pull relationship.
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
It sounds like (?) the Marquise de Brinvilliers was actually guilty? Though actual guilt does not seem to be a big thing in witch hunts, so.
Black masses just sound so improbable to me, but I guess in an age where everyone was more religious in general, and also believed a lot more in Satan as a fundamental power, they presumably have more anti-religion as well...
So the main characters aren't the nobles but the ring of alchemists, abortionists, soothsayers, and yes, also poisoners working in Paris, and Genevieve's mixed feelings about her mentor, once she has figured out the full extent of La Voisin's services, make for a great central push-pull relationship.
Oh, this sounds really interesting!
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
I have the same problem - which is why I snorted when I saw that later (i.e. writing about 60 years or so later) chroniclers accused Henry IV HRE of them as the explanation why his second wife left - , but to be fair, in the case of the Affair of the Poisons you have multiple witnesses saying La Voisin with the help of the two defrocked priest G. organized them. What is particular gruesome in her case is the claim that little babies were sacrificed in some cases (and that this is what became of some of the unwanted illegitimate children, those she couldn't otherwise sell). (Remember, sometimes it just was too late for an abortion, but her higher born female clients still could not officially be pregnant if the husbands were elsewhere or if there was no husband.) Now, witches sacrificing babies etc. is a standard trope in any longer series of witch trials. But at the same time, given what we know today of child abuse rings, I sadly can't exclude the possibility, and it's worth pointing out that while La Voison and the other women were referred to as "sorceresses", they weren't accused of witchcraft in their trials. They were executed for murder (both via poison and the abortions), not as heretics or witches etc. Also, the way La Reynie finally reported on La Voisin's career isn't by accusing her of becoming a satanist out of conviction, but simply for profit. To quote wiki's summary which is way shorter than the very long ones I've read elsewhere and thus handier to quote:
Her business as a fortune teller gradually developed into a business of professional alleged black magic. During her activity as a fortune teller, she noticed similarities among her clients' wishes about their future: almost all wanted to have someone fall in love with them, that someone would die so that they might inherit, or that their spouses would die so that they might marry someone else.[
La Voisin decided to profit financially from her clients' wishes by offering services of purported magic to make their wishes come true. Initially, she told her clients that their wish would come true if it was also the will of God. Secondly, she started to recommend to her clients some action that would make their dreams come true. These actions were initially to visit the church of some particular saint; then she started to sell amulets, and gradually, she recommended more and more alleged magical objects or rituals of various kinds.
For those clients who wished for someone to fall in love with them, she manufactured love powders: the bones of toads, the teeth of moles, Spanish fly, iron filings, human blood and mummy, and the dust of human remains were among the alleged ingredients of the love powders concocted by La Voisin.
Finally, her most radical and expensive recommended practices were the black mass, which she arranged for clients for profit, during which the client could pray to Satan for their wish to come true. During some of these masses, a woman performed as an altar, upon which a bowl was placed: a baby was held above the bowl, and the blood from it was poured into the bowl. Whether the baby in question was actually killed on this occasion, or whether the baby was already dead by natural causes, such as being stillborn, could vary.
And because greed for money and fleecing the nobility are the suggested motives, I can't dismiss it the way I would if she'd been accused of doing it for Lucifer's sake. It was an extremely superstitious age, she saw a market, and there are more than enough examples of people doing absolutely ghastly things for money, plus it's the gradual radicalisation of means that doesn't sound impossible. She and the other sorceresses were abortionists and midwives for unwanted pregnancies, they thus had fetuses and babies at hand, there were exposed unwanted babies in front of churches galore - how much opportunity does it take before someone with a lot of greed and ruthlesssness thinks, hmmmmm?
Conversely: because they were abortionists, it's of course also true that vilifying them would be open season for the police in their interrogations and reports. And again, torture or threat of torture just isn't a reliable truth finder in any circumstances. I mean, all the "someone wanted to poison the King!" stuff for example really sounds artificially inserted simply to justify more investigation, because in the end, who would want to, and why? At this point? (Versailles the tv show has William of Orange as one early assassination attempt financier. William of Orange wants you to know he certainly wanted Louis dead, but he wouldn't have known how to approach Parisian quacks to go about it, not to mention it was more fun outwitting and beating Louis anyway.) All the noble clients named, if they didn't want family members dead in order to inherit, wanted Louis' favor. They certainly didn't want him dead. But like I said earlier - if you can make yourself a witness need for such an investigation, you buy yourself some more life and a chance for a pardon, even, if maybe the King does believe you saved his life.
Antonia Fraser in "Love and Louis XIV" argues for Madame de Montespan's innocence (except for her buying a love potion/powder, she thinks that's possible), though her arguments are a bit elastic:
1) Athenais de Montespan was a deeply pious Catholic. Yes, she was also an adulterer, but to have an affair with the King is still way different from being willing to have a Black Mass read on your naked body, which Marguerite Voisin (i.e. the daughter) said she did, and note La Voisin herself did not make this claim.
2.) If Louis had believed her to be guilty of such a thing , he would have reacted far more harshly than pensioning her off with Olympe Mancini's old office and then gradually freezing her out of court life till she withdrew entirely.
(Counterargument here: she was the mother of seven of his children. Never mind prison, if he'd banished her, with or without taking away some of her worldly goods, it would have confirmed everyone's suspicions.)
The Oracle Glass: here is my write-up for Judith Merkle Riley's novels, this one included. I can really reccommend it.
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
And because greed for money and fleecing the nobility are the suggested motives, I can't dismiss it the way I would if she'd been accused of doing it for Lucifer's sake. It was an extremely superstitious age, she saw a market, and there are more than enough examples of people doing absolutely ghastly things for money, plus it's the gradual radicalisation of means that doesn't sound impossible. She and the other sorceresses were abortionists and midwives for unwanted pregnancies, they thus had fetuses and babies at hand, there were exposed unwanted babies in front of churches galore - how much opportunity does it take before someone with a lot of greed and ruthlesssness thinks, hmmmmm?
That... does make sense, and is rather more believable to me than what I was thinking, which was more a "for Lucifer's sake" sort of thing.
Conversely: because they were abortionists, it's of course also true that vilifying them would be open season for the police in their interrogations and reports.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
Well, I guess you said no one got executed, but quite frankly I cannot blame her! There is something natural and noble in this behavior. As far as I am concerned, I approve of it. It's said that the things she is accused of are nothing but idiocies, which she has told a hundred times, as one does if one comes from these sorceresses or however they call themselves. Yeah, I'm with you, Madame de Sevigné!
Separate, because the one naming the mother of seven of his children sure as hell won't be published.
Oof!
From Marguerite Voisin's interrogation protocol
I appreciate that you bring up in the previous comment the context that if she confesses to a bunch of stuff, then they won't execute her. Because otherwise I would have thought I should have taken Marguerite's confession much more seriously.
Anyway, this was fascinating as always, thank you!
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
Me neither, I would have been out of there at once. Especially since the Marquise de Brinvilliers, who started this whole scandal, had been executed, and I'm sure Olympe remembered that. Spending many years in the Bastille, even in an nice room, would also not have been my fate of choice. Where it starts to get questionable is by her leaving kid Eugene behind, but then a) noble ladies did little childraising themselves anyway, and b) she probably thought that growing up at the court of Louis XIV was better for his later career and prospects. As an exile, she couldn't have assumed she'd be able to give her son the same prospects. Little did she know Eugene was getting nowwhere at the court of Louis XIV but as an exile himself would launch a brilliant military career against Louis.
I appreciate that you bring up in the previous comment the context that if she confesses to a bunch of stuff, then they won't execute her. Because otherwise I would have thought I should have taken Marguerite's confession much more seriously.
Oh, it's still entirely possible that Marguerite was telling nothing but the truth, and certainly if you've ever read a novel set in this era that includes the Affair of the Poisons, black masses do happen. In a superstitious age, it would have been one more thing to fleece the paying nobility for. However, as I wrote, I can't help but consider that the non noble women accused were as good as dead for being abortionists alone the moment they got arrested, and they must have known that. Any hope for clemency and/or staying alive a few months longer would have been in providing information, and spectacular information worked best. Moreover, as you know I've read quite a lot about the witch trials that happened in the same century just a few decades earlier, and they feature a lot of black masses being reported under interrogation, and in these cases, no one assumes all these women were telling the truth. Meaning: these stories were well entrenched in the public subconscious. Whether or not La Voisin offered Black Masses for the customers willing to pay more to get Satan himself on their side, Marguerite would have known approximately how a Black Mass was supposed to be staged, because there were so many pamphlets with such stories making the rounds.
Incidentally, while the Affair of the Poisons shows up in many a fiction set in this era - like the Angelique novels, or the tv series Versailles in its second season - my favourite of Judith Merkle Riley's novels, The Oracle Glass, has it at its centre and from an unsual perspective; our heroine is a young smart and handicaped girl, Genevieve, who has fallen out with her family for plot reasons, nearly dies, but instead is saved and ends up getting mentored by La Voisin who uses her as one of her soothsayers. So the main characters aren't the nobles but the ring of alchemists, abortionists, soothsayers, and yes, also poisoners working in Paris, and Genevieve's mixed feelings about her mentor, once she has figured out the full extent of La Voisin's services, make for a great central push-pull relationship.
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
Black masses just sound so improbable to me, but I guess in an age where everyone was more religious in general, and also believed a lot more in Satan as a fundamental power, they presumably have more anti-religion as well...
So the main characters aren't the nobles but the ring of alchemists, abortionists, soothsayers, and yes, also poisoners working in Paris, and Genevieve's mixed feelings about her mentor, once she has figured out the full extent of La Voisin's services, make for a great central push-pull relationship.
Oh, this sounds really interesting!
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
I have the same problem - which is why I snorted when I saw that later (i.e. writing about 60 years or so later) chroniclers accused Henry IV HRE of them as the explanation why his second wife left - , but to be fair, in the case of the Affair of the Poisons you have multiple witnesses saying La Voisin with the help of the two defrocked priest G. organized them. What is particular gruesome in her case is the claim that little babies were sacrificed in some cases (and that this is what became of some of the unwanted illegitimate children, those she couldn't otherwise sell). (Remember, sometimes it just was too late for an abortion, but her higher born female clients still could not officially be pregnant if the husbands were elsewhere or if there was no husband.) Now, witches sacrificing babies etc. is a standard trope in any longer series of witch trials. But at the same time, given what we know today of child abuse rings, I sadly can't exclude the possibility, and it's worth pointing out that while La Voison and the other women were referred to as "sorceresses", they weren't accused of witchcraft in their trials. They were executed for murder (both via poison and the abortions), not as heretics or witches etc. Also, the way La Reynie finally reported on La Voisin's career isn't by accusing her of becoming a satanist out of conviction, but simply for profit. To quote wiki's summary which is way shorter than the very long ones I've read elsewhere and thus handier to quote:
Her business as a fortune teller gradually developed into a business of professional alleged black magic. During her activity as a fortune teller, she noticed similarities among her clients' wishes about their future: almost all wanted to have someone fall in love with them, that someone would die so that they might inherit, or that their spouses would die so that they might marry someone else.[
La Voisin decided to profit financially from her clients' wishes by offering services of purported magic to make their wishes come true. Initially, she told her clients that their wish would come true if it was also the will of God. Secondly, she started to recommend to her clients some action that would make their dreams come true. These actions were initially to visit the church of some particular saint; then she started to sell amulets, and gradually, she recommended more and more alleged magical objects or rituals of various kinds.
For those clients who wished for someone to fall in love with them, she manufactured love powders: the bones of toads, the teeth of moles, Spanish fly, iron filings, human blood and mummy, and the dust of human remains were among the alleged ingredients of the love powders concocted by La Voisin.
Finally, her most radical and expensive recommended practices were the black mass, which she arranged for clients for profit, during which the client could pray to Satan for their wish to come true. During some of these masses, a woman performed as an altar, upon which a bowl was placed: a baby was held above the bowl, and the blood from it was poured into the bowl. Whether the baby in question was actually killed on this occasion, or whether the baby was already dead by natural causes, such as being stillborn, could vary.
And because greed for money and fleecing the nobility are the suggested motives, I can't dismiss it the way I would if she'd been accused of doing it for Lucifer's sake. It was an extremely superstitious age, she saw a market, and there are more than enough examples of people doing absolutely ghastly things for money, plus it's the gradual radicalisation of means that doesn't sound impossible. She and the other sorceresses were abortionists and midwives for unwanted pregnancies, they thus had fetuses and babies at hand, there were exposed unwanted babies in front of churches galore - how much opportunity does it take before someone with a lot of greed and ruthlesssness thinks, hmmmmm?
Conversely: because they were abortionists, it's of course also true that vilifying them would be open season for the police in their interrogations and reports. And again, torture or threat of torture just isn't a reliable truth finder in any circumstances. I mean, all the "someone wanted to poison the King!" stuff for example really sounds artificially inserted simply to justify more investigation, because in the end, who would want to, and why? At this point? (Versailles the tv show has William of Orange as one early assassination attempt financier. William of Orange wants you to know he certainly wanted Louis dead, but he wouldn't have known how to approach Parisian quacks to go about it, not to mention it was more fun outwitting and beating Louis anyway.) All the noble clients named, if they didn't want family members dead in order to inherit, wanted Louis' favor. They certainly didn't want him dead. But like I said earlier - if you can make yourself a witness need for such an investigation, you buy yourself some more life and a chance for a pardon, even, if maybe the King does believe you saved his life.
Antonia Fraser in "Love and Louis XIV" argues for Madame de Montespan's innocence (except for her buying a love potion/powder, she thinks that's possible), though her arguments are a bit elastic:
1) Athenais de Montespan was a deeply pious Catholic. Yes, she was also an adulterer, but to have an affair with the King is still way different from being willing to have a Black Mass read on your naked body, which Marguerite Voisin (i.e. the daughter) said she did, and note La Voisin herself did not make this claim.
2.) If Louis had believed her to be guilty of such a thing , he would have reacted far more harshly than pensioning her off with Olympe Mancini's old office and then gradually freezing her out of court life till she withdrew entirely.
(Counterargument here: she was the mother of seven of his children. Never mind prison, if he'd banished her, with or without taking away some of her worldly goods, it would have confirmed everyone's suspicions.)
The Oracle Glass: here is my write-up for Judith Merkle Riley's novels, this one included. I can really reccommend it.
Re: Court of Louis XIV: The Affair of the Poisons: Sentences
That... does make sense, and is rather more believable to me than what I was thinking, which was more a "for Lucifer's sake" sort of thing.
Conversely: because they were abortionists, it's of course also true that vilifying them would be open season for the police in their interrogations and reports.
But yeah, this too :(