In fairness to anecdote collections, just think of Nicolai, who turned out to be pretty reliable and well sourced.
It was less the anecdote collection than the "World History" that I was commenting on. Any time there's a book, anecdote collection or no, that covers "world history," I assume the author has gone for breadth rather than depth, and I bring a lot of skepticism about the accuracy to the table. The exception being if it's a collection of essays by specialists on their respective topics, but this is not that.
Nicolai, in contrast, was researching a single topic in-depth.
Well, yes, but I don't think literally, because there's no way Moltke could have managed that one in a literal fashion.
Oh, I assume Christian meant "i.e., when hell freezes over"! But it still feels like accusing Moltke of, idk, lese-majeste, for Christian to be mentioning it even sarcastically, which is the part I raised an eyebrow at. But maybe I'm overreacting.
Then again: Christian isn't mentally stable, so who knows, maybe he did mean it literally, disregarding all logic.
I mean, he did think his stepmother wanted him dead so her son could inherit, maybe he thought Moltke was conspiring too, in the way you suggest?
I mean, even Struensee later wasn't accused of wanting liteerally to become King
I could have sworn he was, and yes, Barz says he was, but this is Barz, we have to read him with a grain of salt. Here's the relevant passage, though.
The wildest rumors are still rife in Copenhagen. Now they are already creating a very concrete picture that is nourished by a terrible vision, by the memory of the events at the Tsar's court around ten years ago: the assassination of Peter III, his successor an underage child, his wife Catherine, and their favorites and accomplices surrounded, the almighty regent — couldn't that also be applied to Denmark? Long before Struensee's appearance, hadn't the Russian ambassador Filosofov, with a booming lack of tact, announced that this king would also have his Catherine? Could those have been prophetic words?
Here too a weak, perhaps mentally disturbed king, here too a self-confident queen and in the background, as another Potemkin or Orlow, Struensee — his net already seems to have been woven: together with the queen, who is in bondage to him, they will get rid of Christian, then Caroline Mathilde is automatically regent and her lover the first man in the state. They might even get married. The queen has already announced that she has nothing against a commoner as long as she loves him, and thanks to Struensee the relevant laws have already been passed. And Crown Prince Friedrich? The minister is already holding him tightly in his claws, and the shocked story goes around that Struensee lets the little boy starve and freeze. He probably wants to murder him too, so that there is room for himself and his brood. But the king, this noble fool, also gives his wife's favorite a magnificently sparkling carriage. After his murder, Struensee will probably let himself be driven in it to his own coronation.
We'll see what the more academic book says, though. (Or at least I hope we will: my book-buying outstrips my reading by orders of magnitude. I'm an optimist or a book addict, depending on how you want to look at it. ;))
This is also a stretch, but it's worth pointing out that in neighboring Sweden, the monarchy had been made elective just 30-40 years before, during a succession crisis, and the crown went to the German noble who married the late king's sister. Now, said German noble was a ruling landgrave with a respectable lineage, not Some Minor Noble from Mecklenburg who had only been given a title a few years before, so Moltke's odds here are not good, but idk...Christian's paranoid.
he might have said this to Moltke after the death of his own mother and before Juliana arrived on the scene
Unfortunately, the timing doesn't work, as he was only 3 years old at the time, but you do make a good point that *if* this anecdote happened, it either presupposes that Frederik's marriage offer and Moltke's refusal were not common knowledge...or that they were and that's why Christian meant "when hell freezes over." I suspect this wasn't common knowledge, though, as our sole source seems to be Moltke's very allusive mention in his memoirs and the editor's math around the dates of Moltke's daughter's age and marriage.
Btw, the fact that Moltke had to marry his 14-yo off in haste while the marriage negotiations with Juliana Maria were in progress makes me wonder if Moltke was afraid of an elopement. Impetuous, often intoxicated Frederik might decide that Moltke is being too modest and he, Frederik, will do him a favor and surprise him? And I could see the 14-yo girl easily being dazzled by the crown, no matter how many talks her serious-business no-fun father had with her about how this is a Really Really Bad Idea, No Really. (I do wonder if she was even told, or if i it was like, "So! I found you a great husband! The wedding is next month.")
Actually, the dates are even closer than I thought: young Catherine Moltke gets married June 16, according to the editor, and Frederik/Juliana Maria on July 8. Yeah, I wonder if Moltke was worried.
ETA: Because it's not digitized yet, I can only glance through the academic Struensee book, but what I've found so far is a statement that Struensee was accused of planning to pull a Cromwell. Does that sound more like "kill the king and rule as regent" or "kill the king and rule in your own name" to you? (Serious question.)
This claim goes back to a 19th century book on the conspiracy against Caroline Mathilde and Struensee, and it does indeed say "Many saw in him a prospective Cromwell." No further context on what they mean by that.
Re: Danish kings and their favorites: Frederik V and Moltke
It was less the anecdote collection than the "World History" that I was commenting on. Any time there's a book, anecdote collection or no, that covers "world history," I assume the author has gone for breadth rather than depth, and I bring a lot of skepticism about the accuracy to the table. The exception being if it's a collection of essays by specialists on their respective topics, but this is not that.
Nicolai, in contrast, was researching a single topic in-depth.
Well, yes, but I don't think literally, because there's no way Moltke could have managed that one in a literal fashion.
Oh, I assume Christian meant "i.e., when hell freezes over"! But it still feels like accusing Moltke of, idk, lese-majeste, for Christian to be mentioning it even sarcastically, which is the part I raised an eyebrow at. But maybe I'm overreacting.
Then again: Christian isn't mentally stable, so who knows, maybe he did mean it literally, disregarding all logic.
I mean, he did think his stepmother wanted him dead so her son could inherit, maybe he thought Moltke was conspiring too, in the way you suggest?
I mean, even Struensee later wasn't accused of wanting liteerally to become King
I could have sworn he was, and yes, Barz says he was, but this is Barz, we have to read him with a grain of salt. Here's the relevant passage, though.
The wildest rumors are still rife in Copenhagen. Now they are already creating a very concrete picture that is nourished by a terrible vision, by the memory of the events at the Tsar's court around ten years ago: the assassination of Peter III, his successor an underage child, his wife Catherine, and their favorites and accomplices surrounded, the almighty regent — couldn't that also be applied to Denmark? Long before Struensee's appearance, hadn't the Russian ambassador Filosofov, with a booming lack of tact, announced that this king would also have his Catherine? Could those have been prophetic words?
Here too a weak, perhaps mentally disturbed king, here too a self-confident queen and in the background, as another Potemkin or Orlow, Struensee — his net already seems to have been woven: together with the queen, who is in bondage to him, they will get rid of Christian, then Caroline Mathilde is automatically regent and her lover the first man in the state. They might even get married. The queen has already announced that she has nothing against a commoner as long as she loves him, and thanks to Struensee the relevant laws have already been passed. And Crown Prince Friedrich? The minister is already holding him tightly in his claws, and the shocked story goes around that Struensee lets the little boy starve and freeze. He probably wants to murder him too, so that there is room for himself and his brood. But the king, this noble fool, also gives his wife's favorite a magnificently sparkling carriage. After his murder, Struensee will probably let himself be driven in it to his own coronation.
We'll see what the more academic book says, though. (Or at least I hope we will: my book-buying outstrips my reading by orders of magnitude. I'm an optimist or a book addict, depending on how you want to look at it. ;))
This is also a stretch, but it's worth pointing out that in neighboring Sweden, the monarchy had been made elective just 30-40 years before, during a succession crisis, and the crown went to the German noble who married the late king's sister. Now, said German noble was a ruling landgrave with a respectable lineage, not Some Minor Noble from Mecklenburg who had only been given a title a few years before, so Moltke's odds here are not good, but idk...Christian's paranoid.
he might have said this to Moltke after the death of his own mother and before Juliana arrived on the scene
Unfortunately, the timing doesn't work, as he was only 3 years old at the time, but you do make a good point that *if* this anecdote happened, it either presupposes that Frederik's marriage offer and Moltke's refusal were not common knowledge...or that they were and that's why Christian meant "when hell freezes over." I suspect this wasn't common knowledge, though, as our sole source seems to be Moltke's very allusive mention in his memoirs and the editor's math around the dates of Moltke's daughter's age and marriage.
Btw, the fact that Moltke had to marry his 14-yo off in haste while the marriage negotiations with Juliana Maria were in progress makes me wonder if Moltke was afraid of an elopement. Impetuous, often intoxicated Frederik might decide that Moltke is being too modest and he, Frederik, will do him a favor and surprise him? And I could see the 14-yo girl easily being dazzled by the crown, no matter how many talks her serious-business no-fun father had with her about how this is a Really Really Bad Idea, No Really. (I do wonder if she was even told, or if i it was like, "So! I found you a great husband! The wedding is next month.")
Actually, the dates are even closer than I thought: young Catherine Moltke gets married June 16, according to the editor, and Frederik/Juliana Maria on July 8. Yeah, I wonder if Moltke was worried.
ETA: Because it's not digitized yet, I can only glance through the academic Struensee book, but what I've found so far is a statement that Struensee was accused of planning to pull a Cromwell. Does that sound more like "kill the king and rule as regent" or "kill the king and rule in your own name" to you? (Serious question.)
This claim goes back to a 19th century book on the conspiracy against Caroline Mathilde and Struensee, and it does indeed say "Many saw in him a prospective Cromwell." No further context on what they mean by that.