cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

I don't know how interested you guys will be in this Jacobite nerdery, but I wrote it up for my journal anyway and might as well post it here as well.

cahn, if you're reading this: just as a refresher, the book is primarily about Donald Cameron of Lochiel, who was the clan chief of one of the largest Highland clans involved in the ‘45 on the Jacobite side.

I'd have liked something a bit more compressed, which did not rehash the events of the '45. But there were some good tidbits here.
- I knew hardly anything about Lochiel's father, exiled after the '19—I love the detail about him being seen as an unlucky chief because 'at his birth, the silver shoe which had come into the family's possession by supernatural means could not be made to fit the infant John's foot'! Hee. We also find out about the fourth of Lochiel's brothers (Ewen, emigrated to Jamaica).
- The info on the cutting of the forests round Loch Arkaig was interesting.
- I have speculated before on whether his brother Archie (Dr Cameron) had any estate, and here is the answer: he held a tack of Lochiel's lands in Glen Kingie, north of Loch Arkaig.
- It remarks on Lochiel's tolerant approach to religion (which BPC shared, of course). I did know that the Cameron regiment had both an Episcopalian, a Presbyterian, and a Catholic chaplain, but I didn't know that MacDonald of Keppoch, who was a Protestant, refused to let his large numbers of Catholics have a chaplain, which led to some desertion...
- OMG. The book says that at the end of May 1746, still wartime, Jean Cameron (Archie's wife) was 'heavy with child', as was also Margaret Murray of Broughton. No source though, arrrgh. Please give your sources! Hmm, trying to decide if this means I should edit my current fic. Also, I am speechless at this, because in September-October of the same year, I've read elsewhere that Jean was taking messages in the Highlands.
- This is actually connected to the surrender of Jean’s brother, Cameron of Dungallon. He was one of Lochiel’s senior officers, and standard bearer to BPC himself. It wasn't that he was taken during military action, no, he turned himself in voluntarily. The book speculates that he did this for the purpose of keeping the Campbell troops away from a place where Lochiel was hiding, and possibly also to protect the two pregnant women. On the other hand, Duffy quotes Campbell of Mamore's reports saying that Dungallon gave ‘very ingenious and satisfactory answers to such questions as I asked him’, and that he was ‘a person who procured very good in intelligence’. Would he really have done this if he gave himself up as a ruse?? Apparently he didn't tell them where Lochiel was, though. I guess we'll never know his motives. This also reminds me of Anne Mackintosh and her husband--I've seen speculations that they were not actually at odds, but that they were consciously each picking a side so that they had insurance whichever side won. Which of course many families did, but not as dramatically!
- Sir Steuart Streipland trained as a surgeon to earn a living after he lost his estates after the ’15. Which is nice, yay making himself a useful member of society. Perhaps this is an illustration of what Naomi Mitchison said about the Scottish land-owning classes not being as averse to taking up a trade as the English?
- This is a cute anecdote: Lochiel was with BPC when he came to the French court, and when a man came and threw his arms around BPC's neck, Lochiel drew his sword because he was afraid it was an assassination. In fact it was BPC's brother Henry--nice to see that the brothers were on such good terms.
- It's very interesting to read Lochiel's narrative Mémoire d’un Ecossais. I can't take it entirely at face value, though, since it obviously had some propaganda purposes--he wanted to influence the French court. For example, it starts with the blatantly false sentence: ‘There had been something close to complete accord among the Scottish Highlanders to serve their rightful king.’ Really? What about the Campbells? and the Munros and Mackays? Also, I am boggling at the epithet ‘bright spirit’ applied to Simon Fraser, Lord Lovat. Here's an interesting bit, though: Lochiel claimed that when general Campbell [Mamore, I think?] was ordered to make a search for BPC on the islands, he arrived, then told Clanranald ‘Tomorrow we are going to carry out some thorough searches. If there is any contraband I think you would do well to get it under undercover tonight.’ No idea if it's true or not, but it is true that the Campbells were generally more lenient than other government troops.

This was great, thanks! Always keep the Jacobite material coming, even if I'm resisting the temptation to get sucked back in to researching it myself.

I didn't know that MacDonald of Keppoch, who was a Protestant, refused to let his large numbers of Catholics have a chaplain, which led to some desertion...

I did know this! It was why when I read the Outlander books in high school, I was indignant that Gabaldon has Keppoch bringing a Catholic priest along. But since then, I've encountered the opposite claim, e.g. in McLynn (big name Jacobite historian), that Keppoch himself was Catholic! I haven't been able to trace the "refused to let them have a chaplain" claim back further than the 19th century (although I haven't really tried, because resisting temptation). Does your book by chance give a source?

ETA: Note that Wikipedia says "allegedly" and gives a 1928 source.

nice to see that the brothers were on such good terms.

Yeah, my faint memories suggest they weren't super close and didn't have a lot in common, but they weren't on *bad* terms either, so an embrace doesn't surprise me. Aww at Lochiel trying to protect him, though.

‘Tomorrow we are going to carry out some thorough searches. If there is any contraband I think you would do well to get it under undercover tonight.’

Hahaha, there are similar stories about Katte's arrest! (Alas, he did not get undercover that night.)

Edited 2023-01-15 18:29 (UTC)

I haven't been able to trace the "refused to let them have a chaplain" claim back further than the 19th century (although I haven't really tried, because resisting temptation). Does your book by chance give a source?
Nope! As I noted frustratedly at another point in the text, this book is not great about giving sources. : ( So if you've also read that he was a Catholic, I am not going to insist that this book is right. If it was relevant to my fic writing, I would put effort into finding out which is the true claim... But I don't think I am invested enough to research it otherwise.

Yeah, I know the feeling. :/ One of the places where I've read he was Catholic is McLynn's "Issues and Motives in the Jacobite Rising of 1745", but he also doesn't give a direct citation (at least I don't remember one, I would have to log into JSTOR to check).

Probably it is inevitable that I will someday read McLynn's biography of BPC...

[personal profile] cahn, if you're reading this: just as a refresher, the book is primarily about Donald Cameron of Lochiel, who was the clan chief of one of the largest Highland clans involved in the ‘45 on the Jacobite side.

Ha - thank you as always for the orientation!

'at his birth, the silver shoe which had come into the family's possession by supernatural means could not be made to fit the infant John's foot'!

Heh, this is great.

Dungallon gave ‘very ingenious and satisfactory answers to such questions as I asked him’, and that he was ‘a person who procured very good in intelligence’. Would he really have done this if he gave himself up as a ruse?? Apparently he didn't tell them where Lochiel was, though. I guess we'll never know his motives. This also reminds me of Anne Mackintosh and her husband--I've seen speculations that they were not actually at odds, but that they were consciously each picking a side so that they had insurance whichever side won. Which of course many families did, but not as dramatically!

Oh, yeah, that's a good point that he might have been trying to play both sides a little. Or maybe giving some true intelligence so they'd believe him when he gave false intelligence about Lochiel?

‘There had been something close to complete accord among the Scottish Highlanders to serve their rightful king.’ Really?

Hee! I'm always grateful when you guys point out the unreliable narrators.

Re: Dungallon turning informer, the really famous informer was Murray of Broughton, who had been secretary to the Prince, and turned King’s Evidence. From what I've read, his information led to the hanging of various of his earlier companions. I haven't read much about him as a person (perhaps Mildred has?), but I do wonder about his motivations. He was actually a driving force behind getting the Rising going, so why betray it later? There is of course the obvious motivation of saving his own skin. But given that so many of the executed Jacobites died proudly and unrepentantly, he must have known that he would be despised for betraying his companions. Which he really was. Also, his wife Margaret was an ardent Jacobite, and I wonder what she thought of him! He has written memoirs, which I assume contain self-justifications, but I haven't read them...

I haven't read much about him as a person (perhaps Mildred has?)

Alas, no!

Oh wow. If you ever do read about him I'd love to hear what people/he himself think his motivations were!

Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)

Re: Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)

Re: Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)

Re: Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)

Re: Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)

Re: Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)

Re: Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)

Re: Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)

Re: Lochiel of the '45, by John Sibbald Gibson (1994)