Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

[cahn]

I'm trying to use my other account at least occasionally so I posted about my Yuletide gifts there, including the salon-relevant 12k fic that features Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Saint Germain, Caroline Daum (Fredersdorf's wife), and Groundhog Day tropes! (Don't need to know canon.)

Comments

Re: Iconography

[luzula]

As a data point, I knew about Hadrian and Antinous' relationship, but can't remember where I learned it. I would say that I have an above-average knowledge about the Roman empire, but it's hardly my primary area of interest.

(Speaking of knowledge of historical gays, I was amazed at how many people around me (including queer people), had no idea who Sappho was! Maybe my baseline idea of "how much most people know about history" needs to be recalibrated...)

Re: Iconography

[mildred_of_midgard]

I would say that anyone in salon is non-representative for the population at large when it comes to interest in history. ;)

I work in tech, a place famous for people with no interest or background in the humanities, and my baseline idea of "how much people know about history" is calibrated by having had to explain who the Medici were to someone who'd been to Florence and yet never heard of them (apparently the Italy trip was mostly for drinking), to explain that yes, Catholicism and Protestantism are kind of a big deal in Ireland, and to tell my boss recently that no, this 18th century history that I'm studying these days is not in fact the Renaissance.

At that point, I was stumped. "What exactly happened in the 18th century that he *has* heard of, that I can use to orient him?" I ended up saying, "American Revolution--but my friends and I aren't studying that, we're doing European history, and uh, gosh...Catherine the Great? Have you heard of her? Voltaire?"

I did not get the sense that he knew any of these names. Then he went,

"Yeah, I don't know anything about history, but my friend who's joining the company soon said the Romans invented slavery. That's not true, right? I don't know much, but I think I know that."

I do not foresee any of these people going, "But Hadrian didn't have mistresses!" in a movie theater any time soon. ;)

Re: Iconography

[luzula]

Catholicism and Protestantism are kind of a big deal in Ireland
Hee. That's just current events, and not limited to history.

I would instinctively have used the French revolution as a reference point for "something people will definitely have heard of that happened in the 18th century". But I suppose the American revolution is better in the US. : D

I do not foresee any of these people going, "But Hadrian didn't have mistresses!" in a movie theater any time soon. ;)
Heh, probably not!

Re: Iconography

[mildred_of_midgard]

That's just current events, and not limited to history.

Yep. And that's the reason I said "humanities" and not "history". :) (There are other examples of a complete lack of humanities knowledge. Like when I was chatting about there being Ender's Game books from different characters' points of view, and one engineer went, "Point of view, point of view...is that like first-person, second-person?")

Ooh, French revolution, yes, that might help. I'll mention Marie Antoinette if it happens again, thank you! I think people might know her name even if "French revolution" means nothing to them (we only covered it in one class the entire time I was in school), and all they think when they hear her name is "Let them eat cake."

Re: Iconography

[cahn]

Aw, tech! Ha, he's probably heard of Lafayette ;)

To be fair, as we've discussed before, a lot of this is the terrible American approach to history in school. The only history I had learned in school before salon was really US history (up to 1920 or so, lol); everything else I might know even a little bit about, like Henry VIII or the French Revolution, was stuff I'd picked up from outside reading but definitely not from the school curriculum. My best friend went to a better school system and she has a much better grounding in world history in general.

My kids go to a school that is progressive in a way that is great in some ways (socioemotionally, which is the most important for E and why we're there) but even more awful for history. I don't think E knows any history except that they did the Renaissance this year, and they have done "Colonial America" and "Westward Expansion" portions of American history in past years, which she remembers almost nothing about.

ETA: I just remembered that I was playing a game with E's classmate's family a couple of weeks ago, and I tried to use the word "Elizabethan" as a clue in the game, because I knew they'd studied Shakespeare during their Renaissance unit. Neither E nor her classmate had ever heard the word, which makes me very suspicious about what history they've done and what they'll remember.

Re: Iconography

[mildred_of_midgard]

Ha, he's probably heard of Lafayette ;)

I was thinking of this when I wrote that comment! And I decided there was a 50% chance. But also we hadn't talked about Lafayette in salon at the time I was talking to him, so Lafayette wasn't on my mind.

To be fair, as we've discussed before, a lot of this is the terrible American approach to history in school.

True facts, but it was a movie aimed at Americans, right? I might also add that my wife is Brazilian, and they don't teach them about Hadrian's sexuality there either. ;) Also, one of her reactions was, "Well, how do we know he didn't *also* have mistresses? They're not mutually exclusive!" Me: "You have to be as well-read as Selena to know what the evidence for that is." ;)

Neither E nor her classmate had ever heard the word

She's...12? There is no way I had heard that word at that age, in or out of school. That was high school at best.

Historical gays

[cahn]

Now, I DID know who Sappho was, and much earlier than 2018 at that! I actually first learned about her as a kid, from reading Marion Zimmer Bradley of dubious memory -- in one of her short stories, the main character, Lythande, sings a lyric that MZB says in the notes to the story is by Sappho, and that it is a clue to Lythande's sexuality. I've seen Sappho a lot of places since then, though, and sapphic is a word...