Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

[cahn]

I'm trying to use my other account at least occasionally so I posted about my Yuletide gifts there, including the salon-relevant 12k fic that features Fritz, Heinrich, Voltaire, Fredersdorf, Saint Germain, Caroline Daum (Fredersdorf's wife), and Groundhog Day tropes! (Don't need to know canon.)

Comments

Re: Byzantine tales, brought to you by virtue of me having finished the available podcast

[mildred_of_midgard]

The Alexiad: according to the podcast, which includes an interview with a philogist about it, it's written in Attic Greek

Did the philologist say anything about how fluent the Attic Greek was? Because what I remember reading was that she did her best, but you can tell that she's not a native speaker. But I'm no longer qualified to tell for myself, if I ever was, though it's not out of the question I might read this when I get around to reviving my Greek.

also is a strange and unique mixture of historian style and performative feminity, i.e. every now and then Anna interrupts the narrative with an emotional lament to show she's not an unnatural unfeminine woman despite daring to write history, and then she switches back to continue with the story.

Now that I didn't know!

Western Europe: less and less priests learn Greek.
Eastern Europe: less and less priests learn Latin.

My Barbarossa biographer tells me that when the Byzantine emperors would write to their western counterparts, they would send the letter in Greek but include a Latin translation, because they knew it wasn't going to be understood otherwise.

Even with the translation, though, misunderstandings crept in, as we saw with Isaac Angelos, who either had a surname or an overinflated and possibly blasphemous opinion of himself.

Of course, Cahn, if you keep listening to the podcast, you'll get to the part where there's a mistranslation within Latin, wherein the Germans use "beneficium" to mean "fief"* and the Italians use it to mean "nice things" and use "feudum" to mean "fief". So when the Pope sends a letter saying he wants to give the emperor "maiora beneficia" and the German chancellor translates that as the pope wanting to bestow more fiefs on the emperor, all hell breaks loose. The Papal legate and future pope Alexander III almost gets run through with a sword.

But the emperor protects him, and the pope writes a conciliatory letter explaining that the word doesn't mean "fiefs" in Italy, but, uh, the episode doesn't do papal-imperial relations any good.

* Speaking of bilingualism:

Me: "The Germans use 'beneficium' to mean 'Lehen'...dammit, what is the English word again?" *googles* :P Hilariously, this has happened before, when I was telling my wife a story and had to say "Wappen", and then give an elaborate explanation of what it meant, because I was blanking on "coat of arms".

Re: Byzantine tales, brought to you by virtue of me having finished the available podcast

[selenak]

Did the philologist say anything about how fluent the Attic Greek was?

No, not that I recall.

Lehen! I'm proud of your German vocabulary triumphing over the English expressions. To celebrate, have the most famous poem featuring the word, by Walther von der Vogelweide, first in medieval German, and then in modern German. Walther - who switched sides repeatedly in the Staufer versus Welfen wars and thus first wrote poetry for Philip von Schwaben, and then for Otto von Braunschweig, and finally for young Friedrich II - was delighted that he finally was rewarded with a Lehen for his poetical and satirical efforts:
Ich hân mîn lêhen, al die werlt, ich hân mîn lêhen

Nû entfürhte ich niht den hornunc an die zêhen

Und will alle boese hêrren dester minre flêhen

Der edel künec, der milte künec hât mich berâten

Daz ich den sumer luft und in dem winter hitze hân

Mîn nâhgeburen dunke ich verre baz getân:

Sie sehent mich niht mêr an in butzen wîs als sî wîlent tâten

Ich bin ze lange arm gewesen ân mînen danc

Ich was sô voller scheltens daz mîn âten stanc:

Daz hât der künec gemachet reine, und dar zuo mînen sanc.





Modern German:
Ich hab mein Lehen, alle Welt, ich hab mein Lehen!
Nun fürchte ich nicht mehr den Februar an den Zehen
und werde alle schlechten Herren um nichts mehr bitten.
Der edle König, der mildtätige König hat für mich gesorgt,
dass ich im Sommer kühle Luft und im Winter Wärme habe.
Bei meinen Nachbarn bin ich viel geschätzter:
Sie sehn mich nicht mehr als Schreckgespenst, wie sie es einst taten.
Ich bin zu lange arm gewesen ohne meine Schuld:
ich war so voller Schelte, dass mein Atem stank.
Das hat der König rein gemacht und mein Singen dazu.

(Translation by Margarita Kuhn.)

Re: Byzantine tales, brought to you by virtue of me having finished the available podcast

[mildred_of_midgard]

I know this poem! It comes up in my reading! It is indeed famous. It's quoted in full and in translation in the Frederick II bio I read, and the first phrase is cited in that bio of Henry the Lion I mentioned (not the one I'm reading now, the less academic one).

Lehen! I'm proud of your German vocabulary triumphing over the English expressions.

I thought you would be! :DD I've hardly read any history in English in the last year, only German (and increasingly French).

Okay, speaking of English and German, though, yesterday I heard from the Brandenburg archive in answer to a question I sent them in English, and it was again in German. Given that you said this the first time I got up my courage to write someone in Germany in English and got a reply in German:

Also, I am tempted to explain the lack of English on the part of your corrspondents by stating that Frankfurt an der Oder is in the very east of East Germany, and depending on the age of your correspondent, that means they might have learned (some, if any) English late in life. Whereas if you were corresponding with a historical society located in Frankfurt am Main (aka Mainhattan), I would be seriously disturbed if they had not replied to you in English.

...how surprising or unsurprising is it that 4 out of 5 separate archivists in Berlin and Potsdam, some of whom have "Dr." in their title, respond to English emails with 2-3 sentences in German?

Re: Byzantine tales, brought to you by virtue of me having finished the available podcast

[selenak]

Well, I continue to blame the East German education system and have to conclude all the archivists must be my age or older, as English was mandatory in the West German educational system and is still mandatory now.