cahn | Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

I got to the "Eugene is gay" part and it delivered! I mean not with citations, there are no footnotes, only in-text references to memoirs and letters (but not where to find them), but it delivered on the gossip!

Google translated because I'm at work, but I did read it in French this morning. ;)

The friends have indeed founded a society with the aim of regularly celebrating orgies. One meets there favorites of Monsieur, brother of the King: the knight of Lorraine, the count of Guiche or the duke of Nevers. We also meet Eugène there, of whom Ezéchiel Spanheim, soon to be representative of Brandenburg in Paris, said bluntly: "It is certain that there is no greater sodomite in France than him and it would be a bad start for a young prince to begin his life with the most horrible debauchery in the world.”

Monsieur is of course gay Philippe, this Ezechiel quote is the one that we saw before. But it gets better!

The young androgynous François-Timoléon de Choisy recounts his "exploits" in his insolent Memoirs. Choisy does not hide his feminine nature. He bought a house, where "Madame" receives ladies and many gentlemen to whom she gives the opportunity to ascertain her sex. She has her self called herself by them the Comtesse de Barres. But at court he is a very neat abbot. However, Monsieur, the King's brother, shares part of his time with him because he likes cross-dressing and even more: "I was dressed as a girl every time the little Monsieur came to the house, and he came there at least two or three times a week. I had pierced ears, diamonds, beauty patches, and all the other little affectations to which one becomes very easily accustomed, and which is very difficult to get rid of. Monsieur, who also loved all that, always gave me a hundred marks of affection. In his Memoirs, the Marquis d'Argenson, future Lieutenant General of Police, to whom Choisy related his worst follies, wrote:

"The Abbé de Choisy kept as long as he could this impertinent habit of dressing as a woman, and we know all the follies he committed in this guise. “In his childhood,” said Sainte-Beuve finally, “his mother made him wear corsets which tightened him to the extreme and thus brought up a fat and chubby chest, so that, when he grew up, he had as much cleavage as a fifteen year old girl."

These follies, Choisy shares with Eugène, who has the opportunity to transform his deformed body into a more attractive silhouette thanks to the frilly outfits he likes to wear. At this same period, he already took a liking to tobacco, gambling and hunting, which he would love all his life. For the rest, the only times he would leave Vienna later, except to go to war, would be only to hunt down stags or wild boars. Even the court of France, which cannot boast of severity in this area, is indignant in the name of morality. The young princes take their friendships too far. The approximately 90,000 indiscreet letters left by Princess Palatine are not the only accounts we have. There is also a court document that relates the same incident. The princess, ugly, frustrated in her marriage to Philippe d'Orléans, ill-suited to the court of France, nostalgic for her German origins, compensates for her discomfort with an often outrageous prolixity. She speaks of the young Prince Eugene in these terms:

“When he was still very young, he was already called Madame Simone and Madame Lansiene (the old one) because, it was said, he often played the lady for young people."

But when the men say the same things about the same guy, they're not ugly and compensating? Sigh.

The small meetings in which one regularly finds the Choisys or the “Madames Simone” become a sensational affair when Louis XIV forces his fifteen-year-old son, the Count of Vermandois, to make revelations. He formed among his relatives a homosexual circle that almost all the young princes of the blood and their close friends are part of. Cardinal de Bouillon, brother-in-law of the poetess Marianne Mancini, the youngest of Eugène's aunts, is not absent. But the King cannot exterminate all the offspring of the high nobility. He must content himself with threats. He doesn't have time to think very seriously about purifying the mores of his court because he himself is too busy being dissolute.

*snort*

On the other hand, the Princess of Savoy-Carignan, Eugene's grandmother, outraged by his behavior, did not hesitate to kick her grandson out. Fortunately, the prince has too many friends in the capital to have trouble finding accommodation. Louvois writes to Condé that a certain Baigneur is giving him hospitality.

Edited 2023-01-19 23:00 (UTC)

Congratulations to the Royal Detective! Looks like "Liselotte was the only one to call Eugene gay" is another case of "Voltaire was the only one to ever call Fritz gay" no-homo'ing, verily. Though that biographer also sounds like a sexist ass. Reminds me of all the "Wilhelmine was clearly a hysterical woman and so can't be trusted" (which is different from "Wilhelmine is writing with temporal distance and of course has her own issues to channel, just like all the male memoirists). I'm currently listening to the part of the Byzantium podcast that deals with Alexios Kommenos and the first Crusade, and a primary source for Alexios is of course his daughter Anna Kommena, who has some claim to being the first female historian/chronicler ever (whom we know of and whose work still exists); according to the podcaster, Robin, both Edward Gibbon and a lot of other male historians until more recently also were all "Anna is an emotional female writing as an old woman, thus can't be trusted", whereas they had no problem trusting bishops who wrote from a thousand miles away and without Anna's claim to have witnessed some of the events she describes, and knowing a lot of players personally. (This is podcaster, Robin, has been consistently good about pointing out sources are of course ALL biased and having agenda, Anna of course included. Which doesn't take away from their value.)

the knight of Lorraine

LOL Google translate. The Chevalier de Lorraine, whose first name was "Philippe" which thus is not useable for either fanfiction or histories, least favourite person of both Philippe d'Orleans' wives, suddenly sounds like a fairy tale character.

the count of Guiche

Hang on, shouldn't he be already out of the picture if the Chevalier is around? I seem to recall de Guiche was the boyfriend who infuriated Philippe by also flirting with Minette, which means he can't overlap with the Liselotte years.

Ezéchiel Spanheim, soon to be representative of Brandenburg in Paris,

Was he working for the Great Elector or for F1?

The princess, ugly, frustrated in her marriage to Philippe d'Orléans, ill-suited to the court of France, nostalgic for her German origins, compensates for her discomfort with an often outrageous prolixity

As you say, what are the other sources compensating for, then? BTW, Liselotte repeatedly described herself as ugly as frankly as she describes most things in her letters ("my bearcat monkey face"), and since Eugene wasn't a favourite of her husbands, I still find it a mystersy as to why this should bias her remarks about him. (I mean, it doesn't mean she knows all about Eugene's intimate life, either, just that she reports the gossip as she's heard it, whether or not it's true.) Otoh, do you know whom she had very strong (hostile) feelings about? Louvois. As in:

I believe that M. de Louvois burns in hell because of the Palatinate; he was terribly cruel, no one can deny this...

(In a letter of 28 January 1708 to her aunt Sophie.

cahn, as Louis' secretary of war, Louvois of course has a great deal of responsibility for the scouring of the shire, err, the Palatinate, Liselotte's home which Louis shamelessly claimed in her name. The ultimate responsibility is with Louis, but blaming the King who can lock you up in a nunnery is always dicy. That Liselotte thought the devastation of her home by French armies to be horrible is another reason why the English wiki argument from their Eugene entry - that Liselotte "badmouthed" him by describing him as gay due to feeling offended by his victories over French armies - never rang very plausible to me.

The small meetings in which one regularly finds the Choisys or the “Madames Simone” become a sensational affair when Louis XIV forces his fifteen-year-old son, the Count of Vermandois, to make revelations. He formed among his relatives a homosexual circle that almost all the young princes of the blood and their close friends are part of

That's one way of putting it. With the caveat that wiki is not necessarily reliable, here's the same story on Liselotte's wiki entry:

Simultaneously, Liselotte was drawn into a larger court scandal through her wardship of Comte of Vermandois, whose mother had left court to become a nun. The young comte had become embroiled in a secret homosexual 'brotherhood' of French nobles and courtiers, which required members to "swear an oath to renounce all women." Several incidents were reported in which women were sadistically tortured, and it also was reported that a poor waffle seller was raped, castrated and killed by courtiers.*Though the Duke of Orléans didn't belong to this brotherhood himself, many of his favorites did. In June 1682, it became known that the 'brotherhood' included the Prince of la Roche-sur-Yon and the young Comte of Vermandois, among other notable figures at court. Louis XIV punished his own son severely and sent him to war, where he died shortly afterwards at the age of 16. Liselotte later recalled: "The Comte de Vermandois was very good-natured. The poor person loved me as if I were his birth mother...He told me his whole story. He had been horribly seduced." One of his 'seducers' is said to have been the Chevalier de Lorraine—her husband's lover and her avowed enemy.

*This gruesome story is used in Anne Golon's Angelique novel, though in there Monsieur does participate. These were the first homosexual characters I encountered in fiction at age 9 or so, and I don't think I encountered any sympathetically written gay characters - in historical or centemporary fiction - until when I was 13 and read The Mists of Avalon (and then the Darkover novels). (Insert obvious comment about MZB's later discovered rl terribleness here, but those books were quite eye opening to young me back then.)

Anyway, raping, castrating and killing a guy and torturing women is quite different from organizing consensual m/m orgies, so I hope that it either didn't happen this way or that young Eugene did not participate.

Incidentally, Mildred, if you can get a digital copy of Voltaire's "Age of Louis XIV" in either English or German for me, I would be very grateful, and since this is supposed to be one of his big oeuvres, I would also do a write up for you.

Full response to come, when I'm not at work, but in the meantime, here's Louis XIV, 1901 English translation. That was the most modern uncopyrighted translation I could quickly find--there were 18th century translations, but I figured this would have better print quality and easier-to-read English. If you want an older one, though, say the word!

If it turns out it's abridged or only the first volume of a series or there are other issues with this copy, just let me know.

We would greatly appreciate a write-up! And speaking of which, your recent Montesquieu post in Rheinsberg reminded me: do you have any plans to read Pöllnitz now that we have a great deal more background knowledge? I know you've browsed before, but I think last time it came up, you didn't have time to do more than dip in.

If not, no worries, just thought I'd ask! (You have us spoiled.)

Thank you! However, a quick look tells me this must be volume 2 or even 3, as it starts with a late chapter and 1701 - and I dare say Voltaire must have written about young Louis as well as old Louis? (If you can‘t get earlier volumes, that‘s okay, since right the first page mentions Eugene, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to have a look right now. ;)

Pöllnitz: we‘ll see, though it can‘t hurt to link me directly again.

Had a feeling that might be the case. I wish Google had made that more obvious.

Volume 1, if I'm not mistaken.

Pöllnitz: Vol 1, Vol 2.

Still done hurriedly, so let me know if there are problems!

LOL Google translate. The Chevalier de Lorraine, whose first name was "Philippe" which thus is not useable for either fanfiction or histories, least favourite person of both Philippe d'Orleans' wives, suddenly sounds like a fairy tale character.

ahahaha thank you for pointing this out!
(Me: Oh, another person I haven't heard of, huh? ...OH.)

as Louis' secretary of war, Louvois of course has a great deal of responsibility for the scouring of the shire, err, the Palatinate, Liselotte's home which Louis shamelessly claimed in her name. The ultimate responsibility is with Louis, but blaming the King who can lock you up in a nunnery is always dicy.

Again, thank you! Yeah... I can't blame her for that. Also that I agree it doesn't make sehse for her to bias her remarks against Eugene??

These were the first homosexual characters I encountered in fiction at age 9 or so, and I don't think I encountered any sympathetically written gay characters - in historical or centemporary fiction - until when I was 13 and read The Mists of Avalon (and then the Darkover novels). (Insert obvious comment about MZB's later discovered rl terribleness here, but those books were quite eye opening to young me back then.)

Gosh, I read Angelique and I don't remember this, it must have gone straight over my head! I also don't remember them in Avalon, which I read at age 11 or 12... I think I really didn't understand what was going on until a couple of years later. I know that by the time I was 14 or 15 I had read A House Like a Lotus and Songmaster and recognized those as sympathetic gay characters.

if you can get a digital copy of Voltaire's "Age of Louis XIV" in either English or German for me, I would be very grateful, and since this is supposed to be one of his big oeuvres, I would also do a write up for you.

Yay, I am so excited!! :D

Though that biographer also sounds like a sexist ass.

He so is! The 2005 date and the Spanheim quote made me initially optimistic, but I'm getting a super conservative vibe from this author, and not just from this. Meh.

Lol at the knight of Lorraine! Google translate, always ready to entertain.

Hang on, shouldn't he be already out of the picture if the Chevalier is around?

Wikipedia indicates he was banished in 1662 and died in 1673, and of course Eugene was only born in 1663, so they definitely didn't overlap! The author seems to be collapsing Philippe's entire life story into a single period, thus adding errors of fact to his problematic opinions.

Was he working for the Great Elector or for F1?

Both, but Eugene leaves France in 1683, and the Great Elector lived until 1688, so at the time of this quote, he was working for the Elector.

Trivia: Per Wikipedia, "In 1702, he went on his final diplomatic mission, as the first Prussian ambassador to England. He died in London in 1710 and was buried in Westminster Abbey."

Anyway, raping, castrating and killing a guy and torturing women is quite different from organizing consensual m/m orgies, so I hope that it either didn't happen this way or that young Eugene did not participate.

I sincerely hope not!

These were the first homosexual characters I encountered in fiction at age 9 or so, and I don't think I encountered any sympathetically written gay characters - in historical or centemporary fiction - until when I was 13 and read The Mists of Avalon

I had a very sheltered (and prudish) youth, so the gayness in The Mists of Avalon went Whooosh! right over my head at age 14. At that age, I think I didn't even know what homosexuality was. I don't think I encountered sympathetic gay characters that registered on my radar until I was about 16/17. Harry Potter fanfic on FFN was not only my introduction to homosexuality, but responsible for most of my sexual education at all! :)

Lol at the knight of Lorraine! Google translate, always ready to entertain.

It brings back happy memories of Cape Stallion.

The author seems to be collapsing Philippe's entire life story into a single period, thus adding errors of fact to his problematic opinions.

Indeed. Btw, skipping in and out of Voltaire's book, I see that the teenage Duc de Vermandois who gets entangled in the scandalous goings-on and is one of Louis' illegitimate sons is also the son of Louise de la Valliere, Louis' first official Maitresse en titre. Since he then dies at age 16, it's even less likely he ever hung out with Eugene, because wasn't Eugene the youngest of Olympe's kids? Also, when reporting on Louise de la Valliere's post-mistress life, where she retired into a convent as Sister Louisa the Penitent and lived there wairing a hair shirt till her death in 1710: Voltaire snarks thusly:

A king should deserve the name of tyrant were he punish a guilty woman with so much severity ; yet many a woman has punished herself thus for having loved. There are scarcely any examples of statesmen who have buried themselves in this manner ; yet the guilt of politicians seems to stand more in need of expiation than the frailty of lovers ; but those who govern souls have authority only with the powerless. It is generally known that when Sister Louisa was informed of the death of the Duke of Vermandois, her son by the King, she said: "I should lament his birth more grieveously than his death.

Edited 2023-01-21 14:38 (UTC)

It brings back happy memories of Cape Stallion.

It does, and Travel Jokes, and the cheap warehouse in rubbish soaps. I enjoyed your comment that you looked forward to the arrival of Chalk Remorse!

Since he then dies at age 16, it's even less likely he ever hung out with Eugene, because wasn't Eugene the youngest of Olympe's kids?

I had the same thought as you initially, but I cross-referenced the dates, and the chronology checks out. He died in 1683, the same year Eugene left France for Austria. So they would have been hanging out at orgies (and hopefully not torture sessions) at the same time.

Anyway, raping, castrating and killing a guy and torturing women is quite different from organizing consensual m/m orgies, so I hope that it either didn't happen this way or that young Eugene did not participate.

Btw, Wikipedia's source is Ziegler's Der Hof Ludwigs XIV. [des Vierzehnten] in Augenzeugenberichten, which seems like your kind of thing! Have you read it?

I have not!

It looks like it's faster and cheaper to get a copy to Germany than to the US, and as I'm fine with not owning it myself, why don't I just send you a copy? No write-up expected, just think it might be useful to you.

It would be, and that would be lovely.

Keep an eye out in the next 2-5 days!

The friends have indeed founded a society with the aim of regularly celebrating orgies.

OMG it does seem to have delivered! There were so many points where I was !!!!! and WTF in those paragraphs, I would be quoting practically the whole thing. This is amazing. No, okay, I have to say

These follies, Choisy shares with Eugène, who has the opportunity to transform his deformed body into a more attractive silhouette thanks to the frilly outfits he likes to wear.

...I think I may have to revamp my internal picture of Eugene...

WTF in those paragraphs, I would be quoting practically the whole thing.

Why do you think I quoted THE WHOLE THING? :D

...I think I may have to revamp my internal picture of Eugene...

Right?!

The first general to put a check on the superiority of the French army was a Frenchman, for so we should call Prince Eugene, though he was the grandson of Charles Emmanuel, duke of Savoy; his father, the count de Soissons, had settled in France, where he was lieutnent-general of the king's armies, and governor of Champagne, and had married Olympe Mancini, one of the nieces of Cardinal Mazarin. From this match, so unfortunate in other respects, was born this prince, who afterwards proved so dangerous an adversary to Louis XIV, and was so little known to him in his youth. He was known at first in France by the name of the Chevalier de Carignan; he afterwards took the petit collet, and was called the Abbot of Savoy. It is said that he asked the king for a regiment, which his majesty refused him, on account of his being too much connected with the princes of Conti, who were then in disgrace.

Not being able to succeed with Louis XIV. , he went to serve the emperor against the Turks in Hungary, in 1684, together with the princes of Conti , who had already made a glorious campaign there . The king sent an order to the princes of Conti, and all those who had accompanied them in this expedition , to return home . The abbot of Savoy was the only one who refused to comply with this mandate : he continued his journey, openly declaring that he renounced France forever. The king, when he was told of this, said to his courtiers, “ Don't you think I have had a great loss ? " and these gentlemen gave it as their opinion that the abbot of Savoy would always be a mad - headed fellow , and fit for nothing. They founded their judgment on certain sallies of youth, by which we are never to judge of men . This prince , who was held in so much contempt at the court of France, was born with all the qualifications which form the hero in war and the great man in peace . He had a just and lofty mind , and the necessary courage, both in the field and cabinet. He was guilty of faults, as all generals have been , but these were lost in the number of his great actions . He shook the greatness of Louis XIV. and the Ottoman power : he governed the empire , and in the course of his victories and ministry showed an equal contempt for vainglory and riches. He cherished , and even protected , learning, as much as could be done at the court of Vienna.

Edited 2023-01-21 14:19 (UTC)

They founded their judgment on certain sallies of youth, by which we are never to judge of men.

Evidently not!

They founded their judgment on certain sallies of youth, by which we are never to judge of men.

Evidently not!

Teenagers acting out: sometimes they become Commodus, sometimes Eugene of Savoy...

Incidentally, since Voltaire can't have read Liselotte's letters, as he writes his Age of Louis XIV in the 1740s, with access only to memoirs and letters published until that point plus whatever stories he personally heard from surviving old timers as a boy and young man, I would say that's some contemporary evidence that there was at least "loose living" type of gossip about Eugene's youth making the rounds independent from Liselotte.

Teenagers acting out: sometimes they become Commodus, sometimes Eugene of Savoy...

Marcus Aurelius: See! How was I to know?

They founded their judgment on certain sallies of youth, by which we are never to judge of men.

Evidently not!

Teenagers acting out: sometimes they become Commodus, sometimes Eugene of Savoy...

LOLOLOLOL!

I would say that's some contemporary evidence that there was at least "loose living" type of gossip about Eugene's youth making the rounds independent from Liselotte.

Ha! Excellent!

Historical Characters, Including Frederick the Great, Discussion Post 40

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Voltaire about Eugene

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