Another Joseph idea is to trade Belgium for Bavaria. This is in the tradition of territory trade that was practiced a lot in the first half of the century, as Mildred has told us about, including, famously, when his parents married and FS gave Lorraine for Tuscany. It makes geographic sense to him: Bavaria is right next to Austria. Belgium is far away, both the Dutch and the French are constantly interfering there, and they don't take well to reforms. Hey, it looks like the Wittelsbachs would be wiling, so, great idea, right?
Except it's not the 1720s anymore, a new spirit of national feeling abounds, the Bavarians and the Belgians are all DO NOT WANT about being traded for each other, the Wittelsbachs hastily back away from having almost said yes, and the other German princes look askance and join Fritz in the Fürstenbund, an explicitly anti-Habsburg league from the 1780s. (Mind you: two years later, they realize that any league with Fritz as a member is just a tool of Prussian policy and he's easily as high handed as Joseph, and secretly pledge themselves to vote for Leopold as next Emperor, thus defeating the Prussian idea of robbing the Habsburgs of their lock on the Imperial Throne after all.) Even George III. of GB, in his capacity as Prince Elector of Hannover, is a Fürstenbund founding member.
Oh, and then there's this gem:
1788/89: G3 has one of his earlier mental breakdowns, though one from which he'll recover. It's not yet permanent regency time. It's "Madness of G3" the play/movie time.
Joseph: As you have reminded me, you are also Elector of Hannover. Now I don't care who gets to rule Britain while you're down and out, but clearly, it's my job as Emperor of the HRE to appoint a regent for Hannover.
G3: *makes recovery* Other HRE princes: WHAT IF HE DOES THIS TO US?!?
Joseph and music is an entire extra chapter and thus will be an extra write up (and an undepressing one, this is one area where Beales does not head desk) for cahn. Instead, I'll finish with another sensational gossipy bit. Now as I said, Joseph succeeded in alienating most of his siblings and had the bad luck that the ones with whom he got on best were either dead (sister Josepha), or far away married (Marie Antoinette and Maria Carolina. (And then there's the sad irony that Leopold as far as Joseph was concerned was his closest confidant among the siblings, the one he wrote his frankest letters to and the brother he was most affectionate with - and Leopold was bursting with resentment and even hate, towards the end. He wrote a secret memorandum after his 1784 visit to Vienna which is among the most vicious thing ever written about Joseph.) Now, Joseph during his trip to Italy had had first hand (literally) experience in what an oaf their brother-in-law the King of Naples was, but back then Maria Carolina at least did have the emotional upper hand, so to speak. In 1786, Leopold rings the alarm and temporarily sets aside fraternal resentment when teaming up with Joseph re: their sister:
Writes Leopold: There has taken placein Naples a scene very unpleasant for the queen. For nine years the King has been ill with various venereal diseases, which are not completely cured, and has passed them to the queen. She has been seriously ill with them several times, especially during her pregnancies and confinements. Her son Gennaro and two of her daughters have been seriously affected. She has finally had to undergo proper treatment, having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
(The Joseph and Leopold correspondence: speaking in anatomically frank terms about their sisters' and brothers-in-laws genitalia, thus ensuring these letters won't be printed until the later 20th century.)
Beales continues: But then, while she was both ill and pregnant, the king forced himself upon her. Relations between them had now, unsurprisingly, become very bad, increasing the political difficulties. Joseph declared the King "a monster", and he and Leopold tried to help and advise her, as she requested, but she paid little attention to what they said.
Ferdinand of Naples: still the worst husband in that Habsburg generation!
Edited 2022-01-11 19:17 (UTC)
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
Another Joseph idea is to trade Belgium for Bavaria.
Not just a Joseph idea! Joseph just revives it. Charles VI had the idea all the way back in 1715, as soon as Austria got the Spanish Netherlands. He kept wanting to do it, only nobody else would agree. (Getting the Spanish Netherlands out of the war of the Spanish Succession was kind of not a big win for Austria, for reasons discussed in my 1720s write-up.)
More when time. Thank you for this in the meantime!
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
Mind you: two years later, they realize that any league with Fritz as a member is just a tool of Prussian policy and he's easily as high handed as Joseph
Buh--the Fürstenbund was founded in 1785! You can argue about whether people should have read the Anti-Machiavel more closely between September and December 1740, but 1785!! Surely Fritz's high-handedness and desire to dominate other principalities was well known!
(Incidentally, Blanning's line on the Fürstenbund that he likes so much he uses it, slightly rephrased, in at least 2 or 3 of his books, is: "The Austrian gamekeeper had turned poacher, forcing the Prussian poacher to turn gamekeeper."
Leopold was bursting with resentment and even hate, towards the end. He wrote a secret memorandum after his 1784 visit to Vienna which is among the most vicious thing ever written about Joseph.
Was that the Relazione, or was that different?
Also, as I recall, he was writing in invisible ink to his siblings, because he knew Joseph was reading his mail. But, says Beales, he obviously didn't switch to the lemon juice soon enough, because one of his non-invisible ink letters was read by Joseph and was critical enough of Joseph to cause bad feelings/problems/something I don't have time to look up.
She has finally had to undergo proper treatment, having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
18 children *and* a gangrenous vagina sore, good god. D:
but she paid little attention to what they said.
She also paid very little attention to what MT said when MT tried to advise her on her relations with her husband as well, early on in the marriage. "Mom, I got this, don't worry!" And for a while at least, she did.
Ferdinand of Naples: still the worst husband in that Habsburg generation!
No kidding!
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
He wrote a secret memorandum after his 1784 visit to Vienna which is among the most vicious thing ever written about Joseph.
I... I think that I need to hear more about this :P
having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
OMG, poor Maria Carolina :(
(The Joseph and Leopold correspondence: speaking in anatomically frank terms about their sisters' and brothers-in-laws genitalia, thus ensuring these letters won't be printed until the later 20th century.)
AHAHAHAHA
But then, while she was both ill and pregnant, the king forced himself upon her. Relations between them had now, unsurprisingly, become very bad, increasing the political difficulties. Joseph declared the King "a monster", and he and Leopold tried to help and advise her, as she requested, but she paid little attention to what they said.
OMG :(
(Also, I am really wishing now Goldstone had been more reliable, because this is all clearly fascinating and I would have loved an accurate historical-romance-anecdote-filled-history, as opposed to what we got.)
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Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
Except it's not the 1720s anymore, a new spirit of national feeling abounds, the Bavarians and the Belgians are all DO NOT WANT about being traded for each other, the Wittelsbachs hastily back away from having almost said yes, and the other German princes look askance and join Fritz in the Fürstenbund, an explicitly anti-Habsburg league from the 1780s. (Mind you: two years later, they realize that any league with Fritz as a member is just a tool of Prussian policy and he's easily as high handed as Joseph, and secretly pledge themselves to vote for Leopold as next Emperor, thus defeating the Prussian idea of robbing the Habsburgs of their lock on the Imperial Throne after all.) Even George III. of GB, in his capacity as Prince Elector of Hannover, is a Fürstenbund founding member.
Oh, and then there's this gem:
1788/89: G3 has one of his earlier mental breakdowns, though one from which he'll recover. It's not yet permanent regency time. It's "Madness of G3" the play/movie time.
Joseph: As you have reminded me, you are also Elector of Hannover. Now I don't care who gets to rule Britain while you're down and out, but clearly, it's my job as Emperor of the HRE to appoint a regent for Hannover.
G3: *makes recovery*
Other HRE princes: WHAT IF HE DOES THIS TO US?!?
Joseph and music is an entire extra chapter and thus will be an extra write up (and an undepressing one, this is one area where Beales does not head desk) for
Writes Leopold: There has taken placein Naples a scene very unpleasant for the queen. For nine years the King has been ill with various venereal diseases, which are not completely cured, and has passed them to the queen. She has been seriously ill with them several times, especially during her pregnancies and confinements. Her son Gennaro and two of her daughters have been seriously affected. She has finally had to undergo proper treatment, having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
(The Joseph and Leopold correspondence: speaking in anatomically frank terms about their sisters' and brothers-in-laws genitalia, thus ensuring these letters won't be printed until the later 20th century.)
Beales continues: But then, while she was both ill and pregnant, the king forced himself upon her. Relations between them had now, unsurprisingly, become very bad, increasing the political difficulties. Joseph declared the King "a monster", and he and Leopold tried to help and advise her, as she requested, but she paid little attention to what they said.
Ferdinand of Naples: still the worst husband in that Habsburg generation!
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
Not just a Joseph idea! Joseph just revives it. Charles VI had the idea all the way back in 1715, as soon as Austria got the Spanish Netherlands. He kept wanting to do it, only nobody else would agree. (Getting the Spanish Netherlands out of the war of the Spanish Succession was kind of not a big win for Austria, for reasons discussed in my 1720s write-up.)
More when time. Thank you for this in the meantime!
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
Buh--the Fürstenbund was founded in 1785! You can argue about whether people should have read the Anti-Machiavel more closely between September and December 1740, but 1785!! Surely Fritz's high-handedness and desire to dominate other principalities was well known!
(Incidentally, Blanning's line on the Fürstenbund that he likes so much he uses it, slightly rephrased, in at least 2 or 3 of his books, is: "The Austrian gamekeeper had turned poacher, forcing the Prussian poacher to turn gamekeeper."
Leopold was bursting with resentment and even hate, towards the end. He wrote a secret memorandum after his 1784 visit to Vienna which is among the most vicious thing ever written about Joseph.
Was that the Relazione, or was that different?
Also, as I recall, he was writing in invisible ink to his siblings, because he knew Joseph was reading his mail. But, says Beales, he obviously didn't switch to the lemon juice soon enough, because one of his non-invisible ink letters was read by Joseph and was critical enough of Joseph to cause bad feelings/problems/something I don't have time to look up.
She has finally had to undergo proper treatment, having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
18 children *and* a gangrenous vagina sore, good god. D:
but she paid little attention to what they said.
She also paid very little attention to what MT said when MT tried to advise her on her relations with her husband as well, early on in the marriage. "Mom, I got this, don't worry!" And for a while at least, she did.
Ferdinand of Naples: still the worst husband in that Habsburg generation!
No kidding!
Re: Derek Beales: Joseph II, Volume 2: Against the World, 1780 - 1790 - B
I... I think that I need to hear more about this :P
having had fainting fits and very painful bouts of urine retention and a gangrenous sore in the vagina.
OMG, poor Maria Carolina :(
(The Joseph and Leopold correspondence: speaking in anatomically frank terms about their sisters' and brothers-in-laws genitalia, thus ensuring these letters won't be printed until the later 20th century.)
AHAHAHAHA
But then, while she was both ill and pregnant, the king forced himself upon her. Relations between them had now, unsurprisingly, become very bad, increasing the political difficulties. Joseph declared the King "a monster", and he and Leopold tried to help and advise her, as she requested, but she paid little attention to what they said.
OMG :(
(Also, I am really wishing now Goldstone had been more reliable, because this is all clearly fascinating and I would have loved an accurate historical-romance-anecdote-filled-history, as opposed to what we got.)