This is pure fic research, to better be able to write a female character during the '45.
She will arrive in a stolen time machine from her twenty-third century university! She will convince BPC that if his generals aren't giving him what he wants (stupid generals wanting to turn back at Derby) that having Joan of Arc as a figurehead worked great for Charles VII of France and she is right here! And since the alternative is turning back, he will take her up on this! And--Oh, you said research your female character during the '45. Carry on, then. And well done. :'D
It has a lot of reports on troop movements and what the Jacobites were doing when in town—she is definitely interested in military matters
Good for her!
The bits about lots of women fighting on the battlefield are exaggerations, afaik.
Me: Didn't Jenny Cameron at least--
Wikipedia: As "Jenny Cameron", she became well-known after a number of sensationalised accounts of her life and deeds during the rising were published. The majority were almost entirely fictional and some were intended as anti-Stuart propaganda.
Me: Well, damn. So what did she do?
Wikipedia: Jean Cameron was reported to have been present at Glenfinnan on 19 August when Charles raised his standard; in line with her duties as proxy tacksman, she may have accompanied some of the Cameron levies from Morvern along with her cousin, Alexander Cameron of Dungallon. She may also have subsequently attended the Jacobite court in Edinburgh, but took little further part in the rebellion: a relative later suggested that despite sending some cattle to the Jacobite army she never actually met Charles himself.
Me: Never met Charles! This is not what I learned.
Wikipedia: Despite Cameron's limited involvement, a number of "cruel and apocryphal" accounts were circulated in England portraying Cameron either as an active military leader, an "amazon" marching at the head of her men, or as a "lewd woman" who became Charles's mistress. These were standard tropes of misogynistic satire of the period: the former credited her with military prowess (including being largely responsible for the victory at Prestonpans), unusual courage, physical strength, and often depicted her wearing male clothing. The latter, notably a prurient 1746 "memoir" written by an "Alexander Arbuthnot", described her as having a voracious sexual appetite and claimed she had borne several illegitimate children.
While untrue, such stories were intended to delegitimise the Jacobite cause by identifying it as the party of chaos and by suggesting its male leaders were cowards, morally bankrupt or otherwise inadequate.
Me: Well, of this, the only thing I learned was that she led her clan's troops to Glenfinnan, the rest, no, absolutely not, but now I'm disappointed that she wasn't actually leading the troops even for a short time and as a noncombatant!
(See, this is why I refuse to get sucked back in: I have way better sources now and I know that I could spend years covering the same ground I covered back then, and I don't want to cover the same ground. Same reason you guys haven't seen me doing a deep dive on the tactics of Fritzian battles: Even if I've forgotten the details, I already did that and need to learn new things, like the tactics of Malplaquet.)
in Spite of our Beards and boasted Wisdom!
In spite of your beard, sir!
ROFL! Masculine insecurity is spelled B-E-A-R-D, clearly. :P
She will arrive in a stolen time machine from her twenty-third century university!
Heee. Why did she choose to go to that time in particular? Was she just itching to see if it could've worked if they went on from Derby?
It occurs to me that I completely skipped over all the well-known female Jacobites in the '45, because I already know about them--I was concentrating on learning new stuff I didn't already know. I can write up some stuff about the more well-known ones, too, if there's interest (Margaret Ogilvy, "Colonel" Anne Mackintosh, Lady Lude, etc).
And yeah, Jenny Cameron, she raised troops and went to Glenfinnan, but the rest is propaganda. Huh, didn't know that she was a cousin to Dungallon. He was the Prince's standardbearer, but when he surrendered, the government found him "a person who procured very good in intelligence". Quite the opposite of his sister Jean Cameron's husband Archibald Cameron, who was executed in '53 without revealing anything.
Heee. Why did she choose to go to that time in particular? Was she just itching to see if it could've worked if they went on from Derby?
Ooh, that's a good question that I no longer remember the answer to, 20+ years later.
...Okay, I rummaged around in my memory while washing dishes just now, and I think she was chasing another time traveler, the one who actually invented the time machine, and trying to forestall them from--something, I no longer remember.
And then I think she winged it once she was on the ground in 1745 Scotland with no way back to the future. There was definitely a second time-traveler as the antagonist, though, and they had numerous encounters over the years in the 18th century, while she was on her quest for world dominion.
Wow, past self, lolz. I researched a lot of things, but realism in my protagonist was not one of them! (Come to think of it, I think pure realism would have required my protagonist to be the antagonist and vice versa. See also my love for terrible people as long as they're safely remote, see also how I got into Frederick the Great. :P)
ETA: In my past self's defense, the Doylist reason for why my protagonist went to join the '45 is that how I discovered the 18th century and the Jacobites in the first place, was a Star Trek novel. In that novel, Scotty travels from the twenty-third century back to 1745 and joins Bonnie Prince Charlie (whom I had never before heard of). Four weeks and several avidly consumed encyclopedia entries later, I was writing my own novel with the same "time traveling from the twenty-third century back to 1745 and joining BPC" premise, and a very different outcome. :P
I can write up some stuff about the more well-known ones, too, if there's interest (Margaret Ogilvy, "Colonel" Anne Mackintosh, Lady Lude, etc).
There is always interest in salon!
Oh, speaking of memory-rummaging, I've been rummaging in the last few days about Charles' visit to England, given all the reliable-looking sources that have turned up. I think *maybe* my past self conflated "don't believe the legend that he was at G3's 1760 coronation" with "don't believe the legend that he visited England again in the 1750s and converted to Anglicanism." But I definitely got it stuck in my head that he never set foot on the island after leaving. (Which made sense to me, given the risks and the obstacles!)
Star Trek would not have been my guess as to how you got into Jacobite stuff, heh.
See also my love for terrible people as long as they're safely remote, see also how I got into Frederick the Great. :P
Whereas I love stories where people are torn between different loyalties, have to choose between their duty and their love, etc. I think you can see the appeal of writing fic set in the '45 to me. : D
All right, I will write up a bit more about the famous Jacobite women when I can. I am now reading a Ph D thesis on Jacobite women and have discovered a very cool woman I didn't know about! More to come.
Also re: Jenny Cameron, if you believe the anti-Jacobite propaganda, she slept around in a French nunnery and also seduced her brother...
how I discovered the 18th century and the Jacobites in the first place, was a Star Trek novel. In that novel, Scotty travels from the twenty-third century back to 1745 and joins Bonnie Prince Charlie (whom I had never before heard of).
Oh HUH. Which one? I thought I'd read almost all of them, but I don't remember anything like that. Unless it was one of the later ones -- I read all the ones I could get my hands on up until, hm, probably college or so, and then I didn't read them any more unless they were written by Diane Duane.
Home is the Hunter! The entire story of me discovering first the Jacobites and then, as a direct result, Fritz, is told here, in excruciating detail.
ETA: The internet tells me it was published in 1990, which means it should have been out when you were reading ST books. Also, haha, I also read all the ones I could get my hands on up until I started college, and then stopped reading them, with only a few scattered exceptions.
The book had several plotlines, only one of which was Scotty, which may be why you don't remember it. That's just the one plotline my brain decided to latch onto (with results ultimately including today's salon!).
Oops, forgot to reply to this: Oh, speaking of memory-rummaging, I've been rummaging in the last few days about Charles' visit to England, given all the reliable-looking sources that have turned up. I think *maybe* my past self conflated "don't believe the legend that he was at G3's 1760 coronation" with "don't believe the legend that he visited England again in the 1750s and converted to Anglicanism."
Ah, okay, that explains it! I'd never even heard the claim that he was at G3:s coronation. Well, it's never a bad thing to hunt down the primary sources anyway...
I can write up some stuff about the more well-known ones, too, if there's interest (Margaret Ogilvy, "Colonel" Anne Mackintosh, Lady Lude, etc).
Oh, yes please! I see that mildred has already talked you into it :D
Huh, didn't know that she was a cousin to Dungallon. He was the Prince's standardbearer, but when he surrendered, the government found him "a person who procured very good in intelligence". Quite the opposite of his sister Jean Cameron's husband Archibald Cameron, who was executed in '53 without revealing anything.
Aw, man. I mean, I imagine I'd be the type to spill everything I knew, but I enjoy reading about people who are braver than that!
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Re: Female Jacobites
This is pure fic research, to better be able to write a female character during the '45.
She will arrive in a stolen time machine from her twenty-third century university! She will convince BPC that if his generals aren't giving him what he wants (stupid generals wanting to turn back at Derby) that having Joan of Arc as a figurehead worked great for Charles VII of France and she is right here! And since the alternative is turning back, he will take her up on this! And--Oh, you said research your female character during the '45. Carry on, then. And well done. :'D
It has a lot of reports on troop movements and what the Jacobites were doing when in town—she is definitely interested in military matters
Good for her!
The bits about lots of women fighting on the battlefield are exaggerations, afaik.
Me: Didn't Jenny Cameron at least--
Wikipedia: As "Jenny Cameron", she became well-known after a number of sensationalised accounts of her life and deeds during the rising were published. The majority were almost entirely fictional and some were intended as anti-Stuart propaganda.
Me: Well, damn. So what did she do?
Wikipedia: Jean Cameron was reported to have been present at Glenfinnan on 19 August when Charles raised his standard; in line with her duties as proxy tacksman, she may have accompanied some of the Cameron levies from Morvern along with her cousin, Alexander Cameron of Dungallon. She may also have subsequently attended the Jacobite court in Edinburgh, but took little further part in the rebellion: a relative later suggested that despite sending some cattle to the Jacobite army she never actually met Charles himself.
Me: Never met Charles! This is not what I learned.
Wikipedia: Despite Cameron's limited involvement, a number of "cruel and apocryphal" accounts were circulated in England portraying Cameron either as an active military leader, an "amazon" marching at the head of her men, or as a "lewd woman" who became Charles's mistress. These were standard tropes of misogynistic satire of the period: the former credited her with military prowess (including being largely responsible for the victory at Prestonpans), unusual courage, physical strength, and often depicted her wearing male clothing. The latter, notably a prurient 1746 "memoir" written by an "Alexander Arbuthnot", described her as having a voracious sexual appetite and claimed she had borne several illegitimate children.
While untrue, such stories were intended to delegitimise the Jacobite cause by identifying it as the party of chaos and by suggesting its male leaders were cowards, morally bankrupt or otherwise inadequate.
Me: Well, of this, the only thing I learned was that she led her clan's troops to Glenfinnan, the rest, no, absolutely not, but now I'm disappointed that she wasn't actually leading the troops even for a short time and as a noncombatant!
(See, this is why I refuse to get sucked back in: I have way better sources now and I know that I could spend years covering the same ground I covered back then, and I don't want to cover the same ground. Same reason you guys haven't seen me doing a deep dive on the tactics of Fritzian battles: Even if I've forgotten the details, I already did that and need to learn new things, like the tactics of Malplaquet.)
in Spite of our Beards and boasted Wisdom!
In spite of your beard, sir!
ROFL! Masculine insecurity is spelled B-E-A-R-D, clearly. :P
Re: Female Jacobites
Re: Female Jacobites
Heee. Why did she choose to go to that time in particular? Was she just itching to see if it could've worked if they went on from Derby?
It occurs to me that I completely skipped over all the well-known female Jacobites in the '45, because I already know about them--I was concentrating on learning new stuff I didn't already know. I can write up some stuff about the more well-known ones, too, if there's interest (Margaret Ogilvy, "Colonel" Anne Mackintosh, Lady Lude, etc).
And yeah, Jenny Cameron, she raised troops and went to Glenfinnan, but the rest is propaganda. Huh, didn't know that she was a cousin to Dungallon. He was the Prince's standardbearer, but when he surrendered, the government found him "a person who procured very good in intelligence". Quite the opposite of his sister Jean Cameron's husband Archibald Cameron, who was executed in '53 without revealing anything.
Re: Female Jacobites
Ooh, that's a good question that I no longer remember the answer to, 20+ years later.
...Okay, I rummaged around in my memory while washing dishes just now, and I think she was chasing another time traveler, the one who actually invented the time machine, and trying to forestall them from--something, I no longer remember.
And then I think she winged it once she was on the ground in 1745 Scotland with no way back to the future. There was definitely a second time-traveler as the antagonist, though, and they had numerous encounters over the years in the 18th century, while she was on her quest for world dominion.
Wow, past self, lolz. I researched a lot of things, but realism in my protagonist was not one of them! (Come to think of it, I think pure realism would have required my protagonist to be the antagonist and vice versa. See also my love for terrible people as long as they're safely remote, see also how I got into Frederick the Great. :P)
ETA: In my past self's defense, the Doylist reason for why my protagonist went to join the '45 is that how I discovered the 18th century and the Jacobites in the first place, was a Star Trek novel. In that novel, Scotty travels from the twenty-third century back to 1745 and joins Bonnie Prince Charlie (whom I had never before heard of). Four weeks and several avidly consumed encyclopedia entries later, I was writing my own novel with the same "time traveling from the twenty-third century back to 1745 and joining BPC" premise, and a very different outcome. :P
I can write up some stuff about the more well-known ones, too, if there's interest (Margaret Ogilvy, "Colonel" Anne Mackintosh, Lady Lude, etc).
There is always interest in salon!
Oh, speaking of memory-rummaging, I've been rummaging in the last few days about Charles' visit to England, given all the reliable-looking sources that have turned up. I think *maybe* my past self conflated "don't believe the legend that he was at G3's 1760 coronation" with "don't believe the legend that he visited England again in the 1750s and converted to Anglicanism." But I definitely got it stuck in my head that he never set foot on the island after leaving. (Which made sense to me, given the risks and the obstacles!)
Re: Female Jacobites
See also my love for terrible people as long as they're safely remote, see also how I got into Frederick the Great. :P
Whereas I love stories where people are torn between different loyalties, have to choose between their duty and their love, etc. I think you can see the appeal of writing fic set in the '45 to me. : D
All right, I will write up a bit more about the famous Jacobite women when I can. I am now reading a Ph D thesis on Jacobite women and have discovered a very cool woman I didn't know about! More to come.
Also re: Jenny Cameron, if you believe the anti-Jacobite propaganda, she slept around in a French nunnery and also seduced her brother...
Re: Female Jacobites
I... kind of regret that the propaganda is propaganda and wish it were true! Because that sounds awesome.
Re: Female Jacobites
Oh HUH. Which one? I thought I'd read almost all of them, but I don't remember anything like that. Unless it was one of the later ones -- I read all the ones I could get my hands on up until, hm, probably college or so, and then I didn't read them any more unless they were written by Diane Duane.
Re: Female Jacobites
ETA: The internet tells me it was published in 1990, which means it should have been out when you were reading ST books. Also, haha, I also read all the ones I could get my hands on up until I started college, and then stopped reading them, with only a few scattered exceptions.
The book had several plotlines, only one of which was Scotty, which may be why you don't remember it. That's just the one plotline my brain decided to latch onto (with results ultimately including today's salon!).
Re: Female Jacobites
Ah, okay, that explains it! I'd never even heard the claim that he was at G3:s coronation. Well, it's never a bad thing to hunt down the primary sources anyway...
Re: Female Jacobites
Oh, yes please! I see that mildred has already talked you into it :D
Huh, didn't know that she was a cousin to Dungallon. He was the Prince's standardbearer, but when he surrendered, the government found him "a person who procured very good in intelligence". Quite the opposite of his sister Jean Cameron's husband Archibald Cameron, who was executed in '53 without revealing anything.
Aw, man. I mean, I imagine I'd be the type to spill everything I knew, but I enjoy reading about people who are braver than that!